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/lit/ - Literature


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16255851 No.16255851 [Reply] [Original]

Don't read this. Read Hesiod instead then proceed to Homer.

You're welcome

>> No.16255859

>>16255851
I am reading this at the moment and I am still in the parts where she is introducing all the gods names and shit.

I want to BLOW MY FUCKING BRAINS OUT HOLY SHIT THIS IS FUCKING BORING.

Only reason I was enticed cause she wrote a lovely introduction....

You don't think it's worth powering through the stupid names to get to the stories?

>> No.16255888

>>16255859
I was also meme'd into reading this and it's a total slog

>> No.16255915
File: 524 KB, 635x474, orphic songs.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16255915

Only Orpheus (and later Plato) was known as a prophet ( through and through, Hesiod was a 'theologian' like Pherecydes; and Homer was a Poet (greatest). That Hesiod was derivative of the Chaldeans/Assyrians/Hittites/Sumerians was even theorized in ancient times, he was a secondary references of extra credits, but not your first choice. Works and Days, however, was a primary ethical source of legitimacy.

>> No.16255980

>>16255859
Fuck no. Why read a mess of Greek and Roman sources slapped together into some wreckage of mythology unless you're reading it to your 8 year old son

>> No.16256004

>>16255888
We read this for highschool and I forgot all about it. Now I get why absolutely no one was interesting in doing discussions cause no one read it cause it was just so fucking bad. Jesus christ, FUCK my retarded English teacher.

>> No.16256070

>>16255851
I learned Greek and Roman mythology from giant picture books before I was even a teenager. You faggot pseuds think snoozefests with walls of text makes you intellectually superior.

>> No.16256097

>>16256004
That's funny since its on the start with the Greeks chart and hardly anyone questions it. I always maintain that this and Herodotus histories be scrapped as they are generally common knowledge to anyone who isn't a clueless burger

>> No.16256125

>>16256097
>hardly anyone questions it.
It's criticized in every thread.
> Herodotus histories be scrapped
You're beyond retarded.

>> No.16256150

>>16255851
It’s not bad as a reference book. She’s generally up front about what sources she is using for each story. The only unnecessary part of the book was the Norse Mythology section. If you want a dry read try Apollodorus The Library.

>> No.16256175

some people pretend that it is accurate, but it isn't even that. this book is way superior:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HisuL0RPEFU

>> No.16256226
File: 1.98 MB, 3672x3024, Start_with_the_greeks.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16256226

>>16256097
>tfw u fell for this chart
What else would you change about this? I was just powering to Edith so I could get the Trojan War history and Illiad... :(

>> No.16256242

>>16255859
It's a children's book on mythology. I'll never understand how it became part of the 'start with the Greeks' meme. Just read primary sources.

>> No.16256247

>>16256226
>>16256097
Maybe we can create our own greek charts? Can we salvage anything from these?

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/4chanlit/images/3/3f/Start_with_the_greeks.jpg

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/4chanlit/images/e/e5/Start_with_greeks2.jpg

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/4chanlit/images/e/e9/Greekchart3.jpg

>> No.16256257

>>16256226
when you reach philosophy choose translations of individual works rather than collections.

>> No.16256259

Hesiod was a fun little read

>> No.16256260
File: 1.62 MB, 3240x3600, 1501831593974.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16256260

>>16256226
good parts of these charts need to be combined into one

>> No.16256267

>>16256226
The First Philosophers is a neat little book but it doesnt really seem that essential.

>> No.16256366

why is this board obsessed with discussing the order to read things but not the actual contents of the books. fucking pseuds

>> No.16256370

>>16256366
Its autism

>> No.16256384

itt people not understanding what developing a referential framework is. Of course you can start with Illiad. The point of books liky Mythology isn't to usurp it's sources but to just allow you to trace your footsteps and check what other literature might be relevant to Illiad or Odyssey.

>> No.16256388
File: 1.98 MB, 2196x3339, Greekchart3.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16256388

>>16256260
Anything worth from pic related too?

>> No.16256391

>>16255851
>reading anything by an a*glo
>ever
oh no no no

>> No.16256432

>>16256384
It's a shitty opinionated book. "Paris was stupid!", "Hesiod was naive!" "Ovid was exaggerating!"
A reference book shouldn't tell you what to think and load you up with preconceptions before even reading anything.

>> No.16256451

>>16256432
Yea, I was thinking "ok I guess I won't read those books" then I was like "how fucking dare you, bitch".

>> No.16256463

>>16256226
Going for complete works of both Plato and Aristotle seems like overkill if you're only reading Greeks as a start.

>> No.16256482

>>16256260
>after the Iliad
>The Iliad or the Poem of Force
>reflections on the conclusions that one can draw from the epic regarding human nature
Holy cringe imagine reading a literal communist interpretation from a 20th century jewish woman to understand the Iliad. It's disgusting you retards save these charts and promote marxist academics.

Read the original sources, learn to think, or what's the fucking point of reading any of this you absolute retards
https://www.theoi.com/Library.html

>> No.16256483

>>16256260
This is the one im following, though i skipped Hesiod and The Histories. Are those worth reading?
Im also kinda scared of The Metaphysics desu, seems complicated and overly theoretical.

>> No.16256490

>>16255915
Hesiod gives us all the myths of creation and the genealogy.
You're a retard.

>> No.16256492

>>16256483
>is the foundational text of the entire tradition of western history worth reading?

>> No.16256523
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16256523

>>16256490
>Hesiod gives us
>gives us
>US
Not the ancients.
Homer is and Orpheus is/was full of theogony.

>> No.16256536

>>16256492
Is it?

>> No.16256542

>>16256523
Both Greeks and Romans read and appreciated Hesiod
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contest_of_Homer_and_Hesiod

>> No.16256548

>>16255915
>orpheus was a faggot pederast
>hesiod was based and advocated marrying virgins
not a difficult choice.

>> No.16256556

>>16256523
>faggot thinks he can speak for the ancients

>> No.16256561
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16256561

>>16255851
I actually really like this book and its worthy as a primer and just a general read after you get past the introduction of the gods

>> No.16256568

>>16256561
Yeah i don't get what all of these faggots are whining about. Its great for understanding all the references in other Greek works and even just as entertainment its pretty good.

>> No.16256582

>>16256432
going into other books with a preconception is on you, not hamilton. All anthropological work is bias as it isn't a science.

>> No.16256605
File: 1.02 MB, 812x1193, PHANES.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16256605

>>16256542
Did my post not literally say that?
I''m talking about the philosopher use of them as valid sources, if Homer seemingly says something but Hesiod says another, then you must reinterpret Hesiod in favor of Homer, same with Hesiod and Orpheus. It's like Plato and Aristotle, you can question Aristotle but not Plato. The point of my post was that Hesiod was not called a prophet or thought of as infallible, he was a reporter of others not someone who himself witnessed the heights.
>>16256556
fuck off

>> No.16256612

>>16256482
Relax, I just found the chart and posted it here so we can critique them. But, thanks for letting us know.

>> No.16256621

>>16256605
Ancients questioned and criticized Homer all the time for his depiction of Gods

>> No.16256626

>>16256568
>>16256561
It's just that the intro of the gods is so gay and boring. It's like the most gayest filter I've seen in my life. The book turns into a reference there then returns into a normal book.

It's like picking up and reading a fucking dictionary. The MOST GAYEST FILTER.

>> No.16256642

>>16255851
If both give you an overview of the mythology, gods and genesis of the Greek religion, why would I read Hamilton before Hesiod? Is it really that bad of an bad idea to start with theogeny?

>> No.16256670

>>16256642
One is a primary source (Hesiod) another is a secondary source (Hamilton). There are stories in Hamilton you won’t find in Hesiod because she also pulls from Roman myths.

>> No.16256687
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16256687

If you want to start with the greeks without secondary sources:

1.To learn myths before Homer, read Hesiod and Apollodorus' Library
2. Then read the Iliad and the Odyssey
3. Then Pindar and Sappho for lyric poetry (very influential for roman poetry)
4. Tragedies (Aeschylus, Sophocles, Eurpides)
5. Aristophanes for comedy
6. Herodotus and Thucydides for history
7. Diogenes Laertius for presocratics, then Plato and Aristotle for greek philosophy
8. Others: Aesop's fables, Euclid's elements, Hippocrates's writings,

>> No.16256693

>>16256226

As someone who has read a huge part of extant Greek stuff and all the primary materials on this chart, here's what I think a beginner chart would look like:

> Read/skim through Jonathan Hall's History of Archaic Greece
> Hesiod's Work and Days, Theogony
> Homer's Iliad and Odyssey
> Read/skim P.J. Rhodes' History of the Classical Greek World
> Aeschylus' Persians, Prometheus Bound, and Oresteia
> Read large parts of Herodotus' Histories
> Sophocles' Electra and Theban Plays
> Aristophanes' The Clouds, Lysistrata, and The Frogs
> Thucydides' Peloponnesian Wars
> Euripides' Alcestis, Medea, and Bacchae
> Extant fragments from Thales, Pythagoreans, Heraclitus, Parmenides, and Zeno of Elea
> Plato's almost everything (no Laws, no Letters besides VII, can skip some of the "early" dialogues though I love them)
> Diogenes' saying and anecdotes
> Aristotle's Organon, Nicomachean Ethics, Politics, and Poetics
> Some history of Alexandrian Greece history

I think this does an infinitely better job of acquainting people w/ the Greeks and all of the relevant stuff from them.

>> No.16256696

>>16256670
I see. Thanks!

>> No.16256701

>>16256693
>no Laws
Dropped

>> No.16256719

>>16256642
>Is it really that bad of an bad idea to start with theogeny?
It's a better idea

>> No.16256741

>>16256621
which is why ORPHEUS and PLATO were called prophet and divine, while Homer in-spite of his supreme greatness was still "only" a poet (which were regarded as inspired).

>> No.16256742

>>16256626
I'm the second anon you quoted and I love the book but agree, that intro made me drop the 2 or 3 times before I finally forced myself through that part; once it got to the heroes of mythology like Jason and Theseus it became really fun.
Ironically, going back and re-reading the introduction is interesting now that you have a lot of context.

>> No.16256752

>>16256561
Me too, I think it’s really funny at times.

>> No.16256759

>>16256605
You don't write one of the greatest works of all times without 'experiencing the heights'.
Now listen retard. You came into a thread about the greatest poets of mythology, and not only did you attempt to shit on one of them you did so without any basis and advocated for poetry that doesn't even exist.
You're a faggot. There should be an initiation before Starting with the Greeks because you would have failed.

>> No.16256782

>>16256687
>>16256693
Thanks, men.

>>16256742
Thank you, that makes me feel a bit better. Thought I was going crazy.

>> No.16256797
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16256797

>>16256548
>orpheus was a faggot pederast
you will be cursed from the grave with such language

>> No.16256807

>>16256687
>ur pic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(cosmogony)

Holy shit didn't know greek myths had shit before the titans. Edith's book just glosses them over.

Looks badass.

>> No.16256835

>>16255915
>reading the writings of a literal ancient schizo sect

>> No.16256840

>>16256701

Laws is something not worth suggesting to someone who wants to understand Plato basically

>> No.16256851
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16256851

>>16256759
Works and Days is one of the greatest works of all times, not the Theogony, Hesiod is literally simplification for the plebs. And for this he was raised (for favoring midwits). To call someone secondary is not to call them worthless, Aristotle is secondary to Plato, Proclus is secondary to Iamblichus, Olympiodorus is secondary to Simplicius, Porphyry is secondary to Plotinus.

>> No.16256857

>>16256797
>cursed by a dead human
OH NO

>> No.16256868

>>16256851
go back to instagram with your faggot list of poets.

>> No.16256875
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16256875

>>16256857
>OH NO

>> No.16256989

>>16256875
>he watches GOT for his mythology

>> No.16256992

>>16256687
>no laws
why? im curious as that was the dialogue i was planning on reading next

>> No.16257000

>>16256992
i meant to reply to >>16256693

>> No.16257004
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16257004

>>16256807
>From Chaos came forth Erebus and black Night
Welcome to the dark side anon.

>> No.16257038

>>16256992
because pseuds don't read it and therefore don't know its worth

>> No.16257040

>>16256687
This is a useful reference as well, even though it's wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greek_mythological_figures#Immortals
Just keep in mind that the gods are neither symbols nor personifications of nature. And Hesiod and Apollodorus are a must. Relying on a reference alone is basically the same as glancing at a painting.

>> No.16257117

>>16257040
Apollodorus is pretty bland as a writer but he is the only source for the war against the giants, which was pretty badass. It was like all the gods went into a murder rampage with Heracles tagging along.

>> No.16257169

>>16257038

It represents a fairly different philosophy than Plato's main corpus and that makes it less important for a beginner. Additionally, it has less literary merit and was most likely written by his students at the Academy. Definitely worth it for people wanting to completely understand Plato, but certainly not necessary for people who want a grasp on his fundamental ideas.

>> No.16257195
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16257195

>>16256226
Don't listen to anyone who replied to you. Follow this one. Only the source texts; no bullshit.

>> No.16257207

>>16257169
In my Plato collection the translator describes Laws as a practical work. City states would hire members of the Academy to help them establish workable states.

>> No.16257282

But i just read this anon.

>> No.16257406

>>16257004
There are hardly any stories about any of these tho

>> No.16257408

>>16257117
>Apollodorus is pretty bland as a writer
Still much better than Hamilton lol

>> No.16257418

>>16257195
Actually based (except that you don't read just ethics and poetics from Aristotle lel)

>> No.16257428

>>16257406
Eternal laws and the elements have no need of stories.

>> No.16257532

>>16256835
plato was an orphic

>> No.16257575
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16257575

>>16257169
It only contrasts with Republic because people don't read between the lines of Republic, thinking it's seriously an applicable political treatise when Plato repeatedly says in it that he uses it as an allegory for the individual and his soul (and heaven). It's only related to real things as much things said in it relate to ruling yourself.

>> No.16257593
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16257593

>>16257406
>There are hardly any stories about any of these tho
not for a greek

>> No.16257598

>>16255851
This is the best advice I've seen on this board today.

>> No.16257663

>>16255851
Why? I read it, realized it wasn't scientific and out of date, but with that in mind, why not read it as a summary of the most important myths?

At no point was I bored by this. It's honestly kinda weak you'd get filtered by something like this.

>> No.16257684
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16257684

>>16257663
>scientific

>> No.16257834

>>16255851
This. That book is reddit garbage

>> No.16257863

>>16255851
Read Robert graves and wank to women fucking sacrificing you.

>> No.16257877

>>16257684
Do you have anything to say or will you just continue posting low effort images of yourself?

>> No.16257939
File: 185 KB, 1200x758, leave philosophy to me.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16257939

>>16257877
submit the scientific method to the scientific method

>> No.16258008

>>16257877
You're a dumbass

>> No.16258177

>>16255859
I read it straight through when I was six. you must be pretty dumb to get bored with a book that can hold the attention of a child.

>> No.16258179

>>16257195
Ok this is based, thanks. Don't need any faggot historians/interpreters trying to guide me. I'll try to find a good english translation for each one. Thanks :)

>> No.16258212

>>16258177
Gee, i dunno, maybe cause at Six, you were a fucking retard and didn't actually understand what the fuck you were reading?

inb4
>M-y MYYYY IQQQQQQQQQQQQ WAS 250!!! THO!!

Neck yourself

>> No.16258219

>>16258177
Nice logic retard

>> No.16258222
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16258222

>>16258179
>Don't need any faggot historians/interpreters trying to guide me.
Based anon

>> No.16258256

>>16256851
>>16256605
>>16256523
>>16255915
Why do you insist on matters the mundane dont care about? They are all uninitiated, let them think what they need to think.

>> No.16258270

>>16258219
>>16258212
>I am an adult but reading something readily understood by a child is difficult for me
touched a nerve there, I see.

>> No.16258289
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16258289

>>16255851
The book is fine, the added Norse myths make it great.
>>16255859
so your on the first ten pages?

>> No.16258293

>>16257195
Where is this list from? I'd like to take a look at any other possible resources they post.

>>16258270
benis :DDDD

>> No.16258299

>>16255859
It gets better once she starts going through the actual myths. The introductions to the gods are fucking mind numbing though and I quit it several times.

You need to struggle through them.

>> No.16258333

>>16256851
Our resident neoplatonist polytheistchad is the only light in my otherwise bleak /lit/ browsing life.

>> No.16258358

>>16258299
I don't need some woman to tell me what's what and how I should think about what's what

>> No.16258362

>>16257575
Were not some Neoplatonists that wanted to try and set up a city according to The Republic though? Are you saying they misunderstood Plato too?

>> No.16258426

>>16258299
>she starts going through the actual myths.
No, that's even worse.

>> No.16258445

>>16258362
That's the 21st century academic dogma: Plato was just joking, he was in fact a crypto-liberal communist that would support BLM today and he did not seriously promote fascist ideas

>> No.16258476

>>16255859
>can't spend a short amount of his time learning the basic names of the primary gods
>can spend the time whining about it on an anonymous message board
filtered

>> No.16258495
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16258495

>>16257663
>read a book on mythology and realised it wasn't scientific
Check out the giga-brain

>> No.16258534
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16258534

>>16258362
no?
Plotinus wanted to establish a platonic polis, in no way does that also imply "by only using the Republic as a reference", or at all.

>> No.16258560

>>16258179
>Don't need any faggot historians/interpreters
Probably not true, considering most who try to understand the myths fail. Our way of thinking is so separated from the myths that to learn their sense of being is much more difficult than learning the most complex language.
Even the best interpreters make mistakes.

>> No.16258579
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16258579

>>16258560
Either projecting brainlet or kike academicuck shill

>> No.16258593
File: 215 KB, 1000x1478, 1594938485030.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16258593

Read


Achilles Tatius
Aeschylus
Aesop
Apuleius
Ammianus Marcellinus
Apollodorus
Apollonius of Rhodes
Appian
Archilochos
Aristophanes
Aristotle
Arrian
Athenaeus
Aulus Gellius
Callimachus
Cassius Dio
Catullus
Cicero
Clement of Alexandria
Claudian
Demosthenes
Dio Chrysostom
Diodorus Siculus
Diogenes Laërtius
Dionysius of Halicarnassus
Ennius
Epictetus
Euripides
Frontinus
Fronto
Herodotus
Hesiod
Hippocrates
Homer
Horace
Josephus
Julius Caesar
Juvenal
Livy
Longus
Lucan
Lucian
Lucretius
Manetho
Marcus Aurelius
Martial
Nonnus
Ovid
Pausanias
Petronius
Pindar
Plato
Pliny the Elder
Pliny the Younger
Plotinus
Plutarch
Polybius
Procopius
Propertius
Quintilian
Quintus Curtius Rufus
Quintus Smyrnaeus
Sallust
Sappho
Seneca
Sextus Empiricus
Sidonius
Silius Italicus
Sophocles
Statius
Strabo
Suetonius
Tacitus
Terence
Tertullian
Theocritus
Theognis
Thucydides
Tibullus
Varro
Virgil
Xenophon

>> No.16258606

>>16258534
hmm okay that is what I heard anyway. That some Neoplatonists wanted to set up Plato's Republic somewhere in Italy and asked the emperor about it but it never materialized.

>> No.16258673
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16258673

>>16258606
yes that's Plotinus, Porphyry says it in his Vita.
Oh look, he even says that he wanted to base it on Plato's Laws.
>§12. Gallienus the emperor and his wife Salonina honoured and revered Plotinus greatly. On the strength of his friendship with them, Plotinus asked them to rebuild a certain city in Campania, once said to have been a city of philosophers, which had fallen into ruins. He
asked them to bestow the surrounding countryside on the city once it had been repopulated. The idea was that the inhabitants would live according to Plato’s laws, and the city would be called Platonopolis. Plotinus promised that he and his companions would move there. And
the philosopher would very easily have had his wish, were it not that some of the emperor’s court stood in his way – whether through envy or resentment or some other unworthy cause.

>so many followers he could found a small city

>> No.16258768

>>16258579
based retard

>> No.16258849

>>16258560
>Our way of thinking is so separated from the myths
True, we have difficulty reading something as poetry even when we are told it is poetry due to modern education. The problem comes when you are trying to find someone to help you interpret, as you will undoubtedly come into contact with >>16258579 (((academics))) who insist that every Greek and Roman was a boy fucking sodomite.

>> No.16258859

>>16255851
Oh damn, I already read Edith Hamilton before any of the greeks.
Damn. I guess I'm doomed to pseud-dom forever

>> No.16258891

>>16255888
I three was memed into reading it and didn’t make it very far

>> No.16259932

>>16258293
It’s from Harold Bloom’s Western Canon

>> No.16260022

>>16259932
>start with the Mesopotamians
Awesome I like this :)

>> No.16260033

>>16259932
>>16260022
http://sonic.net/~rteeter/grtbloom.html

>> No.16260144

>>16257195
>2 (two) works from Aristotle and they aren't even Politics or de Anima

>> No.16261451

>>16256226
>just a random strew of entry level shit for topics with no real line of progression or fiscal connection throughout
Horrible.

>> No.16261470

>>16255859
Didn’t you learn that stuff in school? Just skim through it and get to the stories it’s fun.

>> No.16261633

>>16260144
>Since the literary canon is at issue here, I include only those religious, philosophical, historical, and scientific writings that are themselves of great aesthetic interest.
Faggot

>> No.16262059

>>16257939
You'd want to read Kuhn, Lakatos and Feyerabend my young boy manga magazine.

>> No.16262099

>>16255859
Yikes

>> No.16262279
File: 1.71 MB, 1500x1500, the gods.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16262279

>> No.16262556

>>16255851

I did exactly that and have forgotten everything that happened in Theogony and Works and Days except for Hesiod's advice to use a 40 year old as a ploughman

>> No.16262899

>>16262556
Do better next time anon

>> No.16262941

>>16255915
Why was a cult created around a guy who was murdered for making awful grief songs.

>> No.16263012

>>16262899
You forget stuff from a book if you don't read commentaries on it, that's normal.

>> No.16263021
File: 27 KB, 558x558, 1595036397899.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16263021

>>16263012
Not if you argue about Greek classics on /lit/ every day

>> No.16263058
File: 87 KB, 1080x1080, 86243094.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16263058

>>16256097
>Herodotus histories be scrapped

>> No.16263100

>>16263021
Absolutely based

>> No.16263547
File: 10 KB, 238x212, 1591541432694.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16263547

Hesiod is the original double digit IQ chad

>> No.16264041

>>16256366
Dude let's build the roof first

>> No.16264058

>>16256687
If you are interested in English translations of the primary sources upon which our entire understanding of Greek and Roman mythology depends, then the following two volumes are all you need:

1) "Anthology of Classical Myth: Primary Sources in Translation" (2nd Ed, 2016)
2) "Apollodorus' Library and Hyginus' Fabulae: Two Handbooks of Greek Mythology" (1st Ed, 2007)

>> No.16264571

>>16256687
>pre-socratics
Thales
Heraclitus
Parmenades
Democritus
Should also be mentioned even if they only exist in fragments.

>> No.16264695

>>16255859
dude, those parts about gods, lesser gods and heroes are just simple introductions ment to be kept short to use as a reference. of course they are boring, because they don't tell you anything except characteristics. it gets WAY MORE fun once you read about the story of Dionysus

>> No.16264718

>>16256097
>Herodotus bad
Oh look a faggot

>> No.16264743

>>16264695
> it gets WAY MORE fun once you read about the story of Dionysus
are you 12?

>> No.16264748 [DELETED] 

>>16264743
15 actually

>> No.16264749

>>16264695
Thanks man. I will power through it.

>> No.16264762

>>16257195
>No anabaesis
>no Hellenica instead "DUDE just stop at Thucydides cliffhanger, don't actually find out how the war ends cause philosophy ammirite? XD"
>no Argonautica
>no apollodorus library of myths
Hesiod doesn't come close to covering the myths. Your list needs work. You look like a pseud faggot who is afraid of history

>> No.16264774

>>16263547
I had an Iq of 145 when I was eighteen, but then I smoked weed every day for four years, so IDK what it is now

>> No.16264783
File: 9 KB, 211x239, 1598268871457.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16264783

>>16264762

>> No.16264791

>>16264783
>NOOOO NOOOO YOU CANT JUST POINT OUT THE LIST HAS FLAWS YOURE ONLY SUPPOSED TO DO THAT WITH THE CHARTS
Shut up faggot

>> No.16264826

>>16264791
you're a retard. it's bloom's western canon where the main criterion is literary merit and you suggest apollorous. you should kill yourself

>> No.16265137

>>16264826
>looking for literary merit instead of trying to actually learn
And faggotry confirmed

>>
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