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/lit/ - Literature

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16255851 No.16255851 [Reply] [Original]

Don't read this. Read Hesiod instead then proceed to Homer.

You're welcome

>> No.16255859

I am reading this at the moment and I am still in the parts where she is introducing all the gods names and shit.


Only reason I was enticed cause she wrote a lovely introduction....

You don't think it's worth powering through the stupid names to get to the stories?

>> No.16255888

I was also meme'd into reading this and it's a total slog

>> No.16255915
File: 524 KB, 635x474, orphic songs.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Only Orpheus (and later Plato) was known as a prophet ( through and through, Hesiod was a 'theologian' like Pherecydes; and Homer was a Poet (greatest). That Hesiod was derivative of the Chaldeans/Assyrians/Hittites/Sumerians was even theorized in ancient times, he was a secondary references of extra credits, but not your first choice. Works and Days, however, was a primary ethical source of legitimacy.

>> No.16255980

Fuck no. Why read a mess of Greek and Roman sources slapped together into some wreckage of mythology unless you're reading it to your 8 year old son

>> No.16256004

We read this for highschool and I forgot all about it. Now I get why absolutely no one was interesting in doing discussions cause no one read it cause it was just so fucking bad. Jesus christ, FUCK my retarded English teacher.

>> No.16256070

I learned Greek and Roman mythology from giant picture books before I was even a teenager. You faggot pseuds think snoozefests with walls of text makes you intellectually superior.

>> No.16256097

That's funny since its on the start with the Greeks chart and hardly anyone questions it. I always maintain that this and Herodotus histories be scrapped as they are generally common knowledge to anyone who isn't a clueless burger

>> No.16256125

>hardly anyone questions it.
It's criticized in every thread.
> Herodotus histories be scrapped
You're beyond retarded.

>> No.16256150

It’s not bad as a reference book. She’s generally up front about what sources she is using for each story. The only unnecessary part of the book was the Norse Mythology section. If you want a dry read try Apollodorus The Library.

>> No.16256175

some people pretend that it is accurate, but it isn't even that. this book is way superior:

>> No.16256226
File: 1.98 MB, 3672x3024, Start_with_the_greeks.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>tfw u fell for this chart
What else would you change about this? I was just powering to Edith so I could get the Trojan War history and Illiad... :(

>> No.16256242

It's a children's book on mythology. I'll never understand how it became part of the 'start with the Greeks' meme. Just read primary sources.

>> No.16256247

Maybe we can create our own greek charts? Can we salvage anything from these?




>> No.16256257

when you reach philosophy choose translations of individual works rather than collections.

>> No.16256259

Hesiod was a fun little read

>> No.16256260
File: 1.62 MB, 3240x3600, 1501831593974.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

good parts of these charts need to be combined into one

>> No.16256267

The First Philosophers is a neat little book but it doesnt really seem that essential.

>> No.16256366

why is this board obsessed with discussing the order to read things but not the actual contents of the books. fucking pseuds

>> No.16256370

Its autism

>> No.16256384

itt people not understanding what developing a referential framework is. Of course you can start with Illiad. The point of books liky Mythology isn't to usurp it's sources but to just allow you to trace your footsteps and check what other literature might be relevant to Illiad or Odyssey.

>> No.16256388
File: 1.98 MB, 2196x3339, Greekchart3.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Anything worth from pic related too?

>> No.16256391

>reading anything by an a*glo
oh no no no

>> No.16256432

It's a shitty opinionated book. "Paris was stupid!", "Hesiod was naive!" "Ovid was exaggerating!"
A reference book shouldn't tell you what to think and load you up with preconceptions before even reading anything.

>> No.16256451

Yea, I was thinking "ok I guess I won't read those books" then I was like "how fucking dare you, bitch".

>> No.16256463

Going for complete works of both Plato and Aristotle seems like overkill if you're only reading Greeks as a start.

>> No.16256482

>after the Iliad
>The Iliad or the Poem of Force
>reflections on the conclusions that one can draw from the epic regarding human nature
Holy cringe imagine reading a literal communist interpretation from a 20th century jewish woman to understand the Iliad. It's disgusting you retards save these charts and promote marxist academics.

Read the original sources, learn to think, or what's the fucking point of reading any of this you absolute retards

>> No.16256483

This is the one im following, though i skipped Hesiod and The Histories. Are those worth reading?
Im also kinda scared of The Metaphysics desu, seems complicated and overly theoretical.

>> No.16256490

Hesiod gives us all the myths of creation and the genealogy.
You're a retard.

>> No.16256492

>is the foundational text of the entire tradition of western history worth reading?

>> No.16256523
File: 239 KB, 1200x1825, orphic-tradition-and-the-birth-of-the-gods.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>Hesiod gives us
>gives us
Not the ancients.
Homer is and Orpheus is/was full of theogony.

>> No.16256536

Is it?

>> No.16256542

Both Greeks and Romans read and appreciated Hesiod

>> No.16256548

>orpheus was a faggot pederast
>hesiod was based and advocated marrying virgins
not a difficult choice.

>> No.16256556

>faggot thinks he can speak for the ancients

>> No.16256561
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I actually really like this book and its worthy as a primer and just a general read after you get past the introduction of the gods

>> No.16256568

Yeah i don't get what all of these faggots are whining about. Its great for understanding all the references in other Greek works and even just as entertainment its pretty good.

>> No.16256582

going into other books with a preconception is on you, not hamilton. All anthropological work is bias as it isn't a science.

>> No.16256605
File: 1.02 MB, 812x1193, PHANES.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Did my post not literally say that?
I''m talking about the philosopher use of them as valid sources, if Homer seemingly says something but Hesiod says another, then you must reinterpret Hesiod in favor of Homer, same with Hesiod and Orpheus. It's like Plato and Aristotle, you can question Aristotle but not Plato. The point of my post was that Hesiod was not called a prophet or thought of as infallible, he was a reporter of others not someone who himself witnessed the heights.
fuck off

>> No.16256612

Relax, I just found the chart and posted it here so we can critique them. But, thanks for letting us know.

>> No.16256621

Ancients questioned and criticized Homer all the time for his depiction of Gods

>> No.16256626

It's just that the intro of the gods is so gay and boring. It's like the most gayest filter I've seen in my life. The book turns into a reference there then returns into a normal book.

It's like picking up and reading a fucking dictionary. The MOST GAYEST FILTER.

>> No.16256642

If both give you an overview of the mythology, gods and genesis of the Greek religion, why would I read Hamilton before Hesiod? Is it really that bad of an bad idea to start with theogeny?

>> No.16256670

One is a primary source (Hesiod) another is a secondary source (Hamilton). There are stories in Hamilton you won’t find in Hesiod because she also pulls from Roman myths.

>> No.16256687
File: 189 KB, 1028x773, ivenby6h14x21.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

If you want to start with the greeks without secondary sources:

1.To learn myths before Homer, read Hesiod and Apollodorus' Library
2. Then read the Iliad and the Odyssey
3. Then Pindar and Sappho for lyric poetry (very influential for roman poetry)
4. Tragedies (Aeschylus, Sophocles, Eurpides)
5. Aristophanes for comedy
6. Herodotus and Thucydides for history
7. Diogenes Laertius for presocratics, then Plato and Aristotle for greek philosophy
8. Others: Aesop's fables, Euclid's elements, Hippocrates's writings,

>> No.16256693


As someone who has read a huge part of extant Greek stuff and all the primary materials on this chart, here's what I think a beginner chart would look like:

> Read/skim through Jonathan Hall's History of Archaic Greece
> Hesiod's Work and Days, Theogony
> Homer's Iliad and Odyssey
> Read/skim P.J. Rhodes' History of the Classical Greek World
> Aeschylus' Persians, Prometheus Bound, and Oresteia
> Read large parts of Herodotus' Histories
> Sophocles' Electra and Theban Plays
> Aristophanes' The Clouds, Lysistrata, and The Frogs
> Thucydides' Peloponnesian Wars
> Euripides' Alcestis, Medea, and Bacchae
> Extant fragments from Thales, Pythagoreans, Heraclitus, Parmenides, and Zeno of Elea
> Plato's almost everything (no Laws, no Letters besides VII, can skip some of the "early" dialogues though I love them)
> Diogenes' saying and anecdotes
> Aristotle's Organon, Nicomachean Ethics, Politics, and Poetics
> Some history of Alexandrian Greece history

I think this does an infinitely better job of acquainting people w/ the Greeks and all of the relevant stuff from them.

>> No.16256696

I see. Thanks!

>> No.16256701

>no Laws

>> No.16256719

>Is it really that bad of an bad idea to start with theogeny?
It's a better idea

>> No.16256741

which is why ORPHEUS and PLATO were called prophet and divine, while Homer in-spite of his supreme greatness was still "only" a poet (which were regarded as inspired).

>> No.16256742

I'm the second anon you quoted and I love the book but agree, that intro made me drop the 2 or 3 times before I finally forced myself through that part; once it got to the heroes of mythology like Jason and Theseus it became really fun.
Ironically, going back and re-reading the introduction is interesting now that you have a lot of context.

>> No.16256752

Me too, I think it’s really funny at times.

>> No.16256759

You don't write one of the greatest works of all times without 'experiencing the heights'.
Now listen retard. You came into a thread about the greatest poets of mythology, and not only did you attempt to shit on one of them you did so without any basis and advocated for poetry that doesn't even exist.
You're a faggot. There should be an initiation before Starting with the Greeks because you would have failed.

>> No.16256782

Thanks, men.

Thank you, that makes me feel a bit better. Thought I was going crazy.

>> No.16256797
File: 26 KB, 346x142, diadochi.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>orpheus was a faggot pederast
you will be cursed from the grave with such language

>> No.16256807

>ur pic

Holy shit didn't know greek myths had shit before the titans. Edith's book just glosses them over.

Looks badass.

>> No.16256835

>reading the writings of a literal ancient schizo sect

>> No.16256840


Laws is something not worth suggesting to someone who wants to understand Plato basically

>> No.16256851
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Works and Days is one of the greatest works of all times, not the Theogony, Hesiod is literally simplification for the plebs. And for this he was raised (for favoring midwits). To call someone secondary is not to call them worthless, Aristotle is secondary to Plato, Proclus is secondary to Iamblichus, Olympiodorus is secondary to Simplicius, Porphyry is secondary to Plotinus.

>> No.16256857

>cursed by a dead human

>> No.16256868

go back to instagram with your faggot list of poets.

>> No.16256875
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>> No.16256989

>he watches GOT for his mythology

>> No.16256992

>no laws
why? im curious as that was the dialogue i was planning on reading next

>> No.16257000

i meant to reply to >>16256693

>> No.16257004
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>From Chaos came forth Erebus and black Night
Welcome to the dark side anon.

>> No.16257038

because pseuds don't read it and therefore don't know its worth

>> No.16257040

This is a useful reference as well, even though it's wikipedia.
Just keep in mind that the gods are neither symbols nor personifications of nature. And Hesiod and Apollodorus are a must. Relying on a reference alone is basically the same as glancing at a painting.

>> No.16257117

Apollodorus is pretty bland as a writer but he is the only source for the war against the giants, which was pretty badass. It was like all the gods went into a murder rampage with Heracles tagging along.

>> No.16257169


It represents a fairly different philosophy than Plato's main corpus and that makes it less important for a beginner. Additionally, it has less literary merit and was most likely written by his students at the Academy. Definitely worth it for people wanting to completely understand Plato, but certainly not necessary for people who want a grasp on his fundamental ideas.

>> No.16257195
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Don't listen to anyone who replied to you. Follow this one. Only the source texts; no bullshit.

>> No.16257207

In my Plato collection the translator describes Laws as a practical work. City states would hire members of the Academy to help them establish workable states.

>> No.16257282

But i just read this anon.

>> No.16257406

There are hardly any stories about any of these tho

>> No.16257408

>Apollodorus is pretty bland as a writer
Still much better than Hamilton lol

>> No.16257418

Actually based (except that you don't read just ethics and poetics from Aristotle lel)

>> No.16257428

Eternal laws and the elements have no need of stories.

>> No.16257532

plato was an orphic

>> No.16257575
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It only contrasts with Republic because people don't read between the lines of Republic, thinking it's seriously an applicable political treatise when Plato repeatedly says in it that he uses it as an allegory for the individual and his soul (and heaven). It's only related to real things as much things said in it relate to ruling yourself.

>> No.16257593
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>There are hardly any stories about any of these tho
not for a greek

>> No.16257598

This is the best advice I've seen on this board today.

>> No.16257663

Why? I read it, realized it wasn't scientific and out of date, but with that in mind, why not read it as a summary of the most important myths?

At no point was I bored by this. It's honestly kinda weak you'd get filtered by something like this.

>> No.16257684
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>> No.16257834

This. That book is reddit garbage

>> No.16257863

Read Robert graves and wank to women fucking sacrificing you.

>> No.16257877

Do you have anything to say or will you just continue posting low effort images of yourself?

>> No.16257939
File: 185 KB, 1200x758, leave philosophy to me.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

submit the scientific method to the scientific method

>> No.16258008

You're a dumbass

>> No.16258177

I read it straight through when I was six. you must be pretty dumb to get bored with a book that can hold the attention of a child.

>> No.16258179

Ok this is based, thanks. Don't need any faggot historians/interpreters trying to guide me. I'll try to find a good english translation for each one. Thanks :)

>> No.16258212

Gee, i dunno, maybe cause at Six, you were a fucking retard and didn't actually understand what the fuck you were reading?


Neck yourself

>> No.16258219

Nice logic retard

>> No.16258222
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>Don't need any faggot historians/interpreters trying to guide me.
Based anon

>> No.16258256

Why do you insist on matters the mundane dont care about? They are all uninitiated, let them think what they need to think.

>> No.16258270

>I am an adult but reading something readily understood by a child is difficult for me
touched a nerve there, I see.

>> No.16258289
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The book is fine, the added Norse myths make it great.
so your on the first ten pages?

>> No.16258293

Where is this list from? I'd like to take a look at any other possible resources they post.

benis :DDDD

>> No.16258299

It gets better once she starts going through the actual myths. The introductions to the gods are fucking mind numbing though and I quit it several times.

You need to struggle through them.

>> No.16258333

Our resident neoplatonist polytheistchad is the only light in my otherwise bleak /lit/ browsing life.

>> No.16258358

I don't need some woman to tell me what's what and how I should think about what's what

>> No.16258362

Were not some Neoplatonists that wanted to try and set up a city according to The Republic though? Are you saying they misunderstood Plato too?

>> No.16258426

>she starts going through the actual myths.
No, that's even worse.

>> No.16258445

That's the 21st century academic dogma: Plato was just joking, he was in fact a crypto-liberal communist that would support BLM today and he did not seriously promote fascist ideas

>> No.16258476

>can't spend a short amount of his time learning the basic names of the primary gods
>can spend the time whining about it on an anonymous message board

>> No.16258495
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>read a book on mythology and realised it wasn't scientific
Check out the giga-brain

>> No.16258534
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Plotinus wanted to establish a platonic polis, in no way does that also imply "by only using the Republic as a reference", or at all.

>> No.16258560

>Don't need any faggot historians/interpreters
Probably not true, considering most who try to understand the myths fail. Our way of thinking is so separated from the myths that to learn their sense of being is much more difficult than learning the most complex language.
Even the best interpreters make mistakes.

>> No.16258579
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Either projecting brainlet or kike academicuck shill

>> No.16258593
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Achilles Tatius
Ammianus Marcellinus
Apollonius of Rhodes
Aulus Gellius
Cassius Dio
Clement of Alexandria
Dio Chrysostom
Diodorus Siculus
Diogenes Laërtius
Dionysius of Halicarnassus
Julius Caesar
Marcus Aurelius
Pliny the Elder
Pliny the Younger
Quintus Curtius Rufus
Quintus Smyrnaeus
Sextus Empiricus
Silius Italicus

>> No.16258606

hmm okay that is what I heard anyway. That some Neoplatonists wanted to set up Plato's Republic somewhere in Italy and asked the emperor about it but it never materialized.

>> No.16258673
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yes that's Plotinus, Porphyry says it in his Vita.
Oh look, he even says that he wanted to base it on Plato's Laws.
>§12. Gallienus the emperor and his wife Salonina honoured and revered Plotinus greatly. On the strength of his friendship with them, Plotinus asked them to rebuild a certain city in Campania, once said to have been a city of philosophers, which had fallen into ruins. He
asked them to bestow the surrounding countryside on the city once it had been repopulated. The idea was that the inhabitants would live according to Plato’s laws, and the city would be called Platonopolis. Plotinus promised that he and his companions would move there. And
the philosopher would very easily have had his wish, were it not that some of the emperor’s court stood in his way – whether through envy or resentment or some other unworthy cause.

>so many followers he could found a small city

>> No.16258768

based retard

>> No.16258849

>Our way of thinking is so separated from the myths
True, we have difficulty reading something as poetry even when we are told it is poetry due to modern education. The problem comes when you are trying to find someone to help you interpret, as you will undoubtedly come into contact with >>16258579 (((academics))) who insist that every Greek and Roman was a boy fucking sodomite.

>> No.16258859

Oh damn, I already read Edith Hamilton before any of the greeks.
Damn. I guess I'm doomed to pseud-dom forever

>> No.16258891

I three was memed into reading it and didn’t make it very far

>> No.16259932

It’s from Harold Bloom’s Western Canon

>> No.16260022

>start with the Mesopotamians
Awesome I like this :)

>> No.16260033


>> No.16260144

>2 (two) works from Aristotle and they aren't even Politics or de Anima

>> No.16261451

>just a random strew of entry level shit for topics with no real line of progression or fiscal connection throughout

>> No.16261470

Didn’t you learn that stuff in school? Just skim through it and get to the stories it’s fun.

>> No.16261633

>Since the literary canon is at issue here, I include only those religious, philosophical, historical, and scientific writings that are themselves of great aesthetic interest.

>> No.16262059

You'd want to read Kuhn, Lakatos and Feyerabend my young boy manga magazine.

>> No.16262099


>> No.16262279
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>> No.16262556


I did exactly that and have forgotten everything that happened in Theogony and Works and Days except for Hesiod's advice to use a 40 year old as a ploughman

>> No.16262899

Do better next time anon

>> No.16262941

Why was a cult created around a guy who was murdered for making awful grief songs.

>> No.16263012

You forget stuff from a book if you don't read commentaries on it, that's normal.

>> No.16263021
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Not if you argue about Greek classics on /lit/ every day

>> No.16263058
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>Herodotus histories be scrapped

>> No.16263100

Absolutely based

>> No.16263547
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Hesiod is the original double digit IQ chad

>> No.16264041

Dude let's build the roof first

>> No.16264058

If you are interested in English translations of the primary sources upon which our entire understanding of Greek and Roman mythology depends, then the following two volumes are all you need:

1) "Anthology of Classical Myth: Primary Sources in Translation" (2nd Ed, 2016)
2) "Apollodorus' Library and Hyginus' Fabulae: Two Handbooks of Greek Mythology" (1st Ed, 2007)

>> No.16264571

Should also be mentioned even if they only exist in fragments.

>> No.16264695

dude, those parts about gods, lesser gods and heroes are just simple introductions ment to be kept short to use as a reference. of course they are boring, because they don't tell you anything except characteristics. it gets WAY MORE fun once you read about the story of Dionysus

>> No.16264718

>Herodotus bad
Oh look a faggot

>> No.16264743

> it gets WAY MORE fun once you read about the story of Dionysus
are you 12?

>> No.16264748 [DELETED] 

15 actually

>> No.16264749

Thanks man. I will power through it.

>> No.16264762

>No anabaesis
>no Hellenica instead "DUDE just stop at Thucydides cliffhanger, don't actually find out how the war ends cause philosophy ammirite? XD"
>no Argonautica
>no apollodorus library of myths
Hesiod doesn't come close to covering the myths. Your list needs work. You look like a pseud faggot who is afraid of history

>> No.16264774

I had an Iq of 145 when I was eighteen, but then I smoked weed every day for four years, so IDK what it is now

>> No.16264783
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>> No.16264791

Shut up faggot

>> No.16264826

you're a retard. it's bloom's western canon where the main criterion is literary merit and you suggest apollorous. you should kill yourself

>> No.16265137

>looking for literary merit instead of trying to actually learn
And faggotry confirmed

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