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16345630 No.16345630 [Reply] [Original]

>Mfw it's 2020 and you still haven't taken the Marxpill
Why? Inb4 LTV is false, read Cockshott.
If you DO feel like ascending, read in this order, as an introduction: Critique of the Gotha Programme, The German Ideology. Capital

>> No.16345652
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16345652

I do not care about your filthy kaafir nonsense, I follow only what is revealed in the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the prophet (s.a.w.).

>> No.16345653

On the jewish question is necessary reading, of course it is ignored because early marx is actually radical, and the work of academicians is to neuter radicality and turn marx into a depthless commodity.

>> No.16345669

>>16345653
Agreed, should have included it in the OP.

>> No.16345783

But I like having food in the store.

>> No.16345803

>>16345783
Socialism is when no food

>> No.16345814

never forget: https://www.connexions.org/RedMenace/Docs/RM4-BakuninonMarxRothschild.htm

>> No.16345832

>>16345630
Because theories made for 19th century problems aren't too applicable to deal with 21th century shit.

Marx is obviously right that capitalism is a broken mess but communism doesn't sound like a great solution to it. Not does it quite work out when the most important means of production, a fucking computer, is something most workers do own.

>> No.16345845

>>16345832
Ok then, give your proposal as to who should hold the means of production?

>> No.16345853

>>16345832
>capitalism is a broken mess
It's not. People starving or being butthurt is a feature, not a flaw.

>> No.16345858

>>16345630
What if I agree with cockshott about a cybernetic centrally planned economy but don't want democracy but a new aristocracy because most people are plebs?

>> No.16345872

>>16345845
Depends on the stuff. If it's critical for survival, obviously the state. If it's some luxury shit, who gives a flying fuck.

>>16345853
Kek, well, that's one way to see it. Although I doubt it was actually the intention. The core idea of capitalism is perfectly reasonable after all.

>> No.16345881

>>16345858
I feel the same sometimes, but the smart people we already have would just naturally slide into leadership roles after any revolution, and if education is actually educational, plebs will be rarer and rarer as time goes on.

>> No.16345883
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16345883

>>16345858
okay, here's your new king and queen

>> No.16345894

>>16345883
The current bourgeoisie are plebian, I mean the real spiritual aristocracy. (Which you probably don't even believe in as you're an aforementioned hylic pleb)

>> No.16345902
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16345902

>>16345894
>Here's your aristocracy bro

>> No.16345903

>>16345630
Marxists are slimy, materialistic bugmen.

>> No.16345909

>>16345881
Plebs are plebs because of their souls not their intelligence. Are you a materialist marxist perchance?

>> No.16345914

>>16345903
t. doesn't know what historical materialism means
Mate, all the bugmen are rabid capitalists. "OMG HECKIN WHOLESOME ELON MUSK"

>> No.16345916

German ideology is best Marx prove me wrong

>> No.16345919
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16345919

>trusting a butthurt man

>> No.16345924

>>16345914
You’re an idiot. You can’t contextualize.

>> No.16345925
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16345925

>>16345902
Here's your marxist proletarian paradise comrade

>> No.16345928
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16345928

>>16345894
>the real spiritual aristocracy
i got you

>> No.16345933
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16345933

>>16345925
Here's your wholesome 100 free market bro

>> No.16345943

>>16345924
Ok explain to me what historical materialism is, in your own words, and why it's bugmanish.

>> No.16345951

>>16345914
I know what historical materialism is supposed to mean and it's trash and not true. If it were then we would be in communism right now. And don't give me Cockshott's stochastic bullshit model of modes of production because that's trash too.

>> No.16345953

>>16345919
>trusting men

>> No.16345957

>>16345933
I believe in a planned economy, I don't believe in egalitarianism. I don't believe in marxism. I don't believe in the free market. I'm not a capitalist.

>> No.16345962

>>16345957
So you're a cuck who wants to be ruled over by inbred retards, got it.

>> No.16345966

>>16345928
>implying his life wasn't a miracle.
I can think of no better argument for divine right of Kings than his supernatural resiliency.

>> No.16345970

>>16345951
Right, explain how it's not true.

>> No.16345974

Marx was pro-capitalist and pro-free trade. He believed capitalism to be the most revolutionary force in human history, sweeping away centuries of rotten traditions, like religion and family. The final end point of capitalism is communism: The People's Wal Mart. Anti-capitalist pseudo-marxists are just reactionaries in disguise.

>> No.16345975

>>16345903
This.

>> No.16345982

>>16345974
Agreed with your first half, second half is bait.

>> No.16345986

>>16345845
"the means of production" is a completely meaningless term that is inapplicable to the information age

>> No.16345994

>>16345832
>communism doesn't sound like a great solution to it
Marx wrote about capitalism not communism.

>when the most important means of production, a fucking computer, is something most workers do own
That's not what "means of production" means. Private property is a social relation, not a relation between a person and a thing. An individual tool like a shovel or computer is personal property.

>> No.16345995
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16345995

>>16345986
Computers existing made all factories and mines go away, got it.

>> No.16346000

>>16345881
>smart people would just naturally slide into leadership roles after any revolution
I used to think this but then I discovered Mao

>> No.16346004

>>16345943
Think

>> No.16346005

>>16345970
Show me how societies develop from capitalism to socialism to communism. From where I'm standing it looks like a few societies became socialist and then collapsed and reverted to capitalism again. And there was no worldwide fast spreading socialist revolution which ushered in a new dawn. I'm no capitalist but Marx's historical materialism was a fantasy that failed. It's straight up embarrassing that people endorse it today.

>> No.16346012

>>16345995
Marxism only cares about the ever dwindling /automatized sectors of factory production and mining, got it

>> No.16346013

>>16346005
>From where I'm standing it looks like a few societies became socialist and then collapsed and reverted to capitalism again.
Never happened.

>> No.16346017

>>16345994
But if people are working from home from their own laptops? Do they then own the means of production?

>> No.16346023

>>16346017
The PMC mostly engage in propaganda operations, not production.

>> No.16346024

>>16346005
>From where I'm standing it looks like a few societies became socialist and then collapsed and reverted to capitalism again
* a few societies replaced the capitalist elite with a statist elite that moved into their palaces and then the economy burned to the ground and they got the old style elite back

>> No.16346031

>>16346013
Right so you're a leftcom? Thoughts on Jacques Camatte? He seems right on the money to me from what I know of him

>> No.16346035

>>16346012
No retard, you get what I'm saying. Your whole proposal is retarded. Means of production didn't somehow disappear because people own computers now. Really, computers used for business are mainly as means of distribution ie; Amazon, Ebay., just like how you could send mail to order shit in the 1800s.

>> No.16346043

>>16346035
you didn't understand a single word of what I wrote

>> No.16346048

>>16346023
Where's the line between lumpen, proles, PMC, petite bourgeoisie, etc.?

>> No.16346053
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16346053

communism is when the ruling class own everything

>> No.16346059

>>16346035
When a girl gets an onlyfans does her body become the means of production? Genuine question

>> No.16346078

libs who identify as marxists never shut up about how much they hate capitalism while revelling in its fruits: it's capitalism that erases the gender differences, national borders, ethnic tribalism and traditional values they revile.

>> No.16346082

>>16345652
holy and based

>> No.16346093

>>16346078
Based and succinct

>> No.16346118

>>16345845
No one. There should be none. Take the green pill.

>> No.16346127

>>16345630
Still won't get me a job.

>> No.16346130
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16346130

>>16346118

>> No.16346135

>>16345845
Also I can’t believe the entitlement of communists. Have you seen the average communist? I would rather throw a means of production into the ocean than allow the freaks to use it. The proletariat does not deserve an improvement in its condition, its servile and disgusting.

>> No.16346140

>>16346130
you could replace the picture of Ted with any philosopher and make the same non-point

>> No.16346141

>>16346005
No it's not a fantasy that failed. USSR (State Capitalism) didn't work because Capitalism, in it's liberal version was in an expansion phase. You cannot force history. Karl Kautsky, who was Engels pupil, and compiled theories on surplus value from Marx, heavily criticized Lenin because he wanted to have communism in an archaic (1917 russia) country.
Regarding, again, historical materialism, Capitalism can only happen when it reach it's internal contradictions. Which it has, by the way. For those who don't believe it, and say, i am rambling, reminder that without fictitious credit (money printing), we would most likely be in a dramatic, impossible to solve, crisis. Fictitious credit only delayed it, but we are entering an interesting phase were people will not want fictitious credit anymore, but real asset instead, so basically a phase were fictitious credit crumble. It might not be obvious at all, but we might have entered Capitalism final crisis.

>> No.16346143

>>16346048
Lumpenproles = the criminal underclass; homeless; chronically unemployed; etc
Proletariat = anyone who works for a living, trading their time for a paycheck
Petite bourgeoisie = small business 'owners' who earn prole-tier incomes and effectively work for the banks and suppliers financing them
PMC = upper-income 'knowledge workers' (lawyers, financial managers, journalists) who do not own the means of production, but work directly with the owner class (Capital) to enact their agenda
Capital = those who live off passive capital income like dividends, rents, interest, etc. rather than their own labor

>> No.16346150

>>16346053
Communism is classless you clown.

>> No.16346181

>>16345630
I might be in the minority here but I think Marx peaked in the early 1850s with The Class Struggles in France and The Eighteenth Brumaire.

>> No.16346187

>>16346078
No, that's mostly common sense.

>> No.16346194

>>16346141
And what stage is capitalism in now? Is is going to collapse any minute? And if it does, who is going to spread this good word of Marxism 2.0 with all the patches and fixes of Cockshott, Michael Roberts and whoever else? Where are the communist parties of the world to lead the revolution?

>> No.16346200

>>16346187
Are you saying it's common sense to destroy one's own traditions and allow mass immigration etc?

>> No.16346209

>>16346200
That's all happened under capitalism.

>> No.16346211

>>16346150
Okay then, how are they supposed to go to schools then?

>> No.16346212
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16346212

>>16346078
And there's nothing wrong with that, mass immigration is a tool of neo imperialism.

>> No.16346224

>>16346200
It's just progress. If your traditions don't contribute to it, what the fuck is even the point?

>> No.16346234

>>16346209
Yes I know, I'm anti-capitalist. But I'm not a Marxist.

>> No.16346238
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16346238

>>16346234
>Yes I know, I'm anti-capitalist. But I'm not a Marxist.

>> No.16346244

>>16346212
Partly so but at least it helps some people unlike the old school version.

>> No.16346252

>>16346224
If your traditions don't contribute towards what? Your abstract notion of progress which may or may not even be true? Let's bring down the statues in case Marx was right and we'll all feel silly in communism with our fusty old statues?

>> No.16346253
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16346253

Because I'm a third position TradCath Chad.

>> No.16346260

>>16346253
Thank you for blessing this thread filled with disgusting Marxist atheists

>> No.16346263

>>16346253
>third position
>TradCath
Lol. "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him."

>> No.16346267

>>16346194
>And what stage is capitalism in now? Is is going to collapse any minute?
When you are in your early 20s, like you probably are, each year is an eternity. However, modes of productions are social relationships that can last millennias. See antique slavery.
> Is is going to collapse any minute?
I would bet in the next 40 years for sure.
>And if it does, who is going to spread this good word of Marxism 2.0 with all the patches and fixes of Cockshott, Michael Roberts and whoever else?
Nothing is needed to be spread. People will hang on desperately to political economy. Facing the failure of late stage Capitalism, people will want to try fascism, socialism (state Capitalism), whatever. Political economy is doomed. Nothing can solve the tendency of the rate of profit. It is over. You just don't know it yet, that's all.
>Where are the communist parties of the world to lead the revolution?
A party is already the shit that is political economy. We abolish this. We do not reform the shit.

>> No.16346278

>>16346211
Nice. In any case, school is already something that brainwash children in order to transform them into artificial, standardized, production units.

>> No.16346281

>>16346267
Please elucidate for me if you will, what happens between the end of capitalism and the beginning of communism in your estimation?

>> No.16346286

>>16346252
Statues are a perfect example of pointless traditions if one can even call them traditions. Especially if made for a single person.

inb4 but muh history. Put the shit where it belongs, into a museum.

>> No.16346287

>>16345630
>Mfw it's 2020 and you still don't have a gf

>> No.16346289

>>16346253
Traditionalism is just a previous version of Capitalism.
t. former traditionalist.

>> No.16346295
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16346295

>>16346263
We should treat everyone, even foreigners, with love, absolutely. That's not the same as letting your country be overrun with Muslims who turn your church into a Mosque.

>> No.16346304

>>16346289
secular traditionalism, yeah.

>> No.16346305

>>16345919
Lmao, the original "the left can't meme"

>> No.16346306

>>16346295
Ok so you're just a conservative then. Why the "Third positionist" LARP?

>> No.16346316

>>16346260
Marx has nothing do to with atheism. I've yet to find a sentence from him where is promote atheism. To be clear, he was against institutionalized religion. Not someone who strongly believed God don't exist.

>> No.16346318

>>16345630
ok i believe in marx, now what? how does this help anyone, or anything, or change my life in any way? what lifestyle does this belief prescribe?

>> No.16346322

>>16346286
You are nothing if not your history, heritage and ancestary, you do not exist in a vacuum.

>> No.16346325
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16346325

>>16346306
Treating foreigners with love =/= letting them live in your country.

>> No.16346326

>>16345630
Because the material worldview is incorrect, and solving man's alienation from labor does nothing to solve his alienation from spirit.

>> No.16346333

>>16346326
This is why you should take the ChristCom pill

>> No.16346337

>>16346316
Do you believe in a spirit or soul? Do you think everything is just matter?

>> No.16346343

>>16346281

Possibly some dictatorial socialism, new world order like, between 2030-2045, with basic income, nationalized economic sectors (because not profitable anymore), stuff like that. The last bard of honor of the State. Then, slow decentralization of production throught IT networks.

>> No.16346346

>>16346333
Go back to r/radicalchristianity

>> No.16346348

>>16346325
Ok I can agree with that. You shouldn't call yourself a third positionist though people will just think you're a Nazi.

>> No.16346355

>>16346333
Nice trips but I'm just a bona fide fascist.
Also being religious and also Marxist is pretty contradictory.
If you're religious, distributism is probably more your thing.

>> No.16346361

>>16346346
No, that subreddit is awful. It's just a bunch of Biden voting white guilt libs larping as Marxists.

>> No.16346362

>>16346343
But how do we get to a dictatorial socialism? It seems the Right are in a much better position to capitalise if everything should fall apart

>> No.16346368

>>16346316
Marxism is a scientific philosophy based only on what can be perceived by the senses.

>> No.16346371

>>16346361
yeah the description says they support gays and trannies lmao

>> No.16346373
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16346373

>Commie thread
>immediately turns into "that wasn't real communism" excuses and semantics to fit the really specific strain of communism that the OP belongs to
Why cant you just accept your failures? Even fascists never argue about "that wasnt real fascism"

>> No.16346375

>>16346361
That's also 90% of the online left, the white hating and men hating left will destroy itself before it gets any power anywhere

>> No.16346378

>Marxism
Dead meme. Like running around in a Guy Fawkes mask and thinking you're cool or edgy. You just look like a pathetic larper, which you are if you believe in Marxism.

>> No.16346379
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16346379

>>16346337
Yes, but the development of productive forces are what moves history. Not prayers or churches. In Marxist theory, the base is dominant to the superstructure. That doesn't mean a superstructure cannot live in the human mind, independently of the base.

>> No.16346384

>>16346378
this, even the left has given up on it

they're all socdems now who at most use marxist analytical theory

>> No.16346392

>>16346322
The statements aren't even connected. Obviously, I don't exist in a vacuum, we live in a society, bro.

All that shit from before had an effect on how it looks now, obviously enough too. But why the fuck would anyone sane keep worshipping it instead of putting it where it belongs and moving forward?

>> No.16346396

>>16346379
>Yes, but the development of productive forces are what moves history. Not churches.

t. never read history more than 200 years old

lmao

>> No.16346397
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16346397

>>16345652
thread should've ended here

>> No.16346398
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16346398

>>16346378
>>16346384

>> No.16346404

>>16345653
Go back to /pol/ moron. There is more to philosophy and politics than anti-Semitism.

>> No.16346406

>>16346318
>what lifestyle does this belief prescribe?
Read Marx (all 4 volumes of Das Kapital, and the rest), and Hegel.

>> No.16346408

>>16346396
Read the German Ideology.

>> No.16346409

>>16346379
>churches
>Implying the church didn't control Europe for centuries during the middle ages
>Implying Muslims still aren't controlled by their imams

>> No.16346412

This thread is just a whole lot of "I don't know what historical materialism is" huh?

>> No.16346414

>>16345630
If you want to adopt an evil totalitarian and utopian ideology that requires genocide and tyranny in order to be implemented, at least Nazis has better aesthetics.

>> No.16346417

>>16346379
This is a nice theory anon but it's only one interpretation. And it's too convenient for me. I know to you it's truth so you'll be annoyed at me saying that, but it's one theory among many.

>> No.16346419

>>16345630
Shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up. I am never locking arms with the fags and smelly brown people just because I fit in with some economic derivative that forget about culture. AND I don't give a fuck what marx actually said, that's his legacy

>> No.16346423

>>16346325
Ethno-nationalist post, Jewess pic.

>> No.16346429

>>16346412
I know what it is and I don't buy it.

>> No.16346430

>>16346414
You just described Leninism not Marxism lol.

>> No.16346431

>>16346412
historical materialists dont know what it is either. Same with dialectics.

>> No.16346441
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16346441

>>16345630
>be Karl Marx
>concoct a materialist philosophy without all the support it needs to justify it ontologically
>hear about an Anglo with a beard even bigger than yours who has discovered the process of evolution
>only pay attention to the material change part
>ask Darwin for his support
>Darwin points out that the survival of the fittest means that success in society is the result of biology not muh exploitation
>have a tantrum and pretend evolution works without the natural selection part
>my ideology only succeeds in extremely unstable countries, kills millions of people, and then gets defeated by capitalism
It’s shocking that the people most enamoured with Darwin are almost always people who have their ideas refuted by evolution. Both Marxists in the past and radlibs now pretend that evolution does not support racial self interest conceptually. It’s even worse that atheists us it as some kind of basis for their own worldview despite Darwin mentioning God numerous times throughout On The Origin Of Species.

>> No.16346443

>>16346430
>Bruh the dictatorship of the proletariat totally wont be a tyranny it's just a coincidence that it turned into that all the time haha trust us bro 100th time is the charm
uhuh

>> No.16346444

>>16346419
You realize white birthrates would skyrocket under socialism, because people would have housing, healthcare, food etc. right? The amount of white people I've heard say they would have multiple kids if they weren't poor is insane. Realize that socialism is in your best interest.

>> No.16346447

>>16346362
I don't want dictatorial socialism. NWO is. They are dictatorial socialism, because they will buy social peace and harmony with socialism. Socialism is their last card in order to maintain the class based society. Socialism with a chip in your body of course.

>> No.16346450

>>16346430
So how do we magically get from the fall of capitalism to a socialist/communist society/world?

>> No.16346454
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16346454

>>16346444
>You realize white birthrates would skyrocket under socialism, because people would have housing, healthcare, food etc. right?
You realize there's an inverse relation between birth rates and welfare, right?

>> No.16346457

>>16346443
>I don't know what dictatorship of the proletariat means: the post

>> No.16346459

>>16346368
Yes, but what can be perceived by the sense are what influence reality most, in this material plane. It seems it is how this works.

>> No.16346460

>>16346444
A socialism that is, national?

>> No.16346461

>>16346423
Israel is a model for the ethnostate. The same Jews that hate white people hate Israel.

>> No.16346462

>>16346457
>Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon the other part by means of rifles, bayonets and cannon — authoritarian means, if such there be at all; and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule by means of the terror which its arms inspire in the reactionists. Would the Paris Commune have lasted a single day if it had not made use of this authority of the armed people against the bourgeois? Should we not, on the contrary, reproach it for not having used it freely enough?

>> No.16346466

>>16346447
And what happens after that? It collapses and we magically get communism?

>> No.16346470

>>16346234
>But I'm not a Marxist.
Why not? On which points do you disagree with him?

>> No.16346472

>>16346368
No it's not. It claims to be, but it really is just a dead end of an actual science, namely economics. Marxism today is just a relic in the history of economics as science, just as mercantilism before it.

>> No.16346475

>>16346454
Socialism is not capitalist welfare
>>16346460
No lol.
>>16346462
Well..yeah. Dictatorship of the proletariat means the proletariat rule, that's kind of self explanatory. I don't know why you're quoting Engels like this "owns" me.

>> No.16346480

>>16346295
Muslims are far more traditional than Western Christians. Why not go all the way?

>> No.16346481

>>16346472
People always say this like they have 200 IQ and then don't offer what they think the alternative is.

>> No.16346483

>>16346459
>>16346472
Yes but I'm saying this as a response against someone who is saying Marxism is compatible with religion.

>> No.16346487
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16346487

>>16346475
>Well..yeah. Dictatorship of the proletariat means the proletariat rule, that's kind of self explanatory. I don't know why you're quoting Engels like this "owns" me.
>Dictatorship isnt tyranny
>Show engels quote which quite literally depicts tyranny and claims it's a necessity
>IT'S NOT TYRANNY REEEEEEEE

>> No.16346488

>>16346443
>dictatorship of the proletariat
>Bosheviks who killed proletarians at Kronstaadt and sent proletarians into gulags.
Choose one.

>> No.16346494

>>16346375
Those people aren't leftists.

>> No.16346496

>>16346487
>>Show engels quote which quite literally depicts tyranny and claims it's a necessity
That's not what he meant, that's pretty obvious. "Tyranny" and force aren't the same thing.
Read Civil War in France by Marx

>> No.16346498

>>16346481
The alternative is current economic consensus, which might be shit, but it at least doesnt make the completely braindead take that it's the complete and final science regarding all of history

>> No.16346500

>>16346487
The proletariat should rule, there should be tyranny. The bourgeoisie need to be put in their place. Simple as.

>> No.16346505

>>16346466
It slowly morph into decentralized, classless, no division of labor society.

>> No.16346508
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16346508

>>16346480
Because Christianity is the tradition of the west. Arabs role model is a warlord, ours is a peacemaker.

But in our pursuance of peace, we've let the powerful walk on us and take over our countries. These powerful corporations and politicians are now importing foreigners to replace us in our own homelands. Jesus spoke out against the Pharisees betraying their traditions in favor of earthly power and riches in a similar way.

>> No.16346514

>>16346470
Too many to list, maybe I'll come to letypol one day to argue about it and probably get myself banned

>> No.16346515
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16346515

>>16346373
I also noticed this. it's all just defensive arguing, deflection, and generally being stuck in the past. There's no longer any alternative offered, because people now know that it'll eventually lead to a repetition of the atrocities of the 20th century. Marxism has been concluded, as Kołakowski said.

>> No.16346520

>>16346514
>maybe I'll come to letypol one day
You're already here.

>> No.16346526

>>16346500
>it's not tyranny because i dont call it tyranny
glad that we've come to an agreement that you are in fact arguing for tyranny.
also lol at you thinking "the proletariat" will call any shots, rather than a gang of misfits and revolutionaries who more often than not have bourgeois origins and will oppress the proles harder than any king or company ever has.

>> No.16346527

>>16346483
Institutionalize religion is not spirituality. In any case, their is no more institutionalized religion anymore. The mall, and recently social networks, have replaced the church.

>> No.16346532

>>16346444
If only there was a brand of socialism that did away with all the morally relativistic faggotry

>> No.16346533
File: 2.20 MB, 600x600, 1589036709884.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16346533

>>16346498
>The alternative is current economic consensus
Uh huh that's working out great

>> No.16346534

>>16346514
>Too many to list
In other words, you never read Marx and have no idea what you're talking about.

>> No.16346535

>>16346475
What's wrong with mixing a little nationalism with your socialism? Marx was wrong, the proletariat don't see themselve as a common force they hate eachother based on nations. Just look at Yugoslavia, eastern Europe, South America etc

>> No.16346545

>>16345630
That is a pretty bizarre trio to start Marx with. I'd go with Manifesto, Gotha Programme and Civil War in France for three quick and essential, clearly political readings.

>> No.16346547

>>16346494
Well they call themselves leftists and make up most of 'The Left', and if you take them out the left is probably made up of a few thousand people? Worldwide? Would you agree?

>> No.16346549

>>16346470
>Why not? On which points do you disagree with him?
I'm not a materialist.

>> No.16346550

>>16346515
Implying those atrocities weren't a product of Capitalism. There was not Marxism in the 20th century. Only bolshevik State Capitalism.

>> No.16346557

>>16346533
I just said it's shit, but it's much less shit than Marxism, and unlike Marxism it can at least leave dead paradigms behind.
Current Marxist "economists" are only trying to prove why a 150 year old thesis on linen production is somehow still applicable to information era economics. Theyre stuck in a dead end and they cant let go of it. It's why marxism is just a pseudo-science.
And modern economists can at least admit that there's more to the world than just economics; marxists cannot fathom that there's anything beyond materialism.

>> No.16346559

>>16346505
Sounds like we're on the right track then? Don't need to do anything to change the course of History™, Historical Materialism™ sorts it all out for us?

>> No.16346560

>>16346059
When a girl became an independent prostitute in 19th century, did she become a means of production? Not really, as that is largely based on the sale of labour, and cannot be scaled - there is no second body to sell, and at best, an onlyfans top earner will make something getting her to an upper middle class position income wise.

>> No.16346571

>>16346557
Stopped reading after the second sentence, and I'm just gonna say read Cockshott.

>> No.16346572
File: 38 KB, 580x328, giovanni-gentile.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16346572

>>16346481
The alternative is fascism, unironically.

>> No.16346573

>>16346550
Case in point with the "not real communism"

>> No.16346583

>>16346550
>The atrocities of explicitly Marxist/Communist regimes were the fault of capitalism
Like a god damn broken record

>> No.16346589

>>16346559
That's Marx thesis. But being aware can make it happen more smoothly. Being retard and stubborn on the other hand will only lead to more chaos.

>> No.16346591

>>16346534
Don't get catty friend, I have read Marx although probably not as much as the knowledgeable anon in this thread

>> No.16346596

>>16346591
Ok then what do you disagree with

>> No.16346597

>>16346547
Nah, they're not even remotely leftists.

>> No.16346602

>>16346571
Read Sowell

>> No.16346608
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16346608

>>16346602
muh basic economics

>> No.16346611

>>16346573
What is it that you don't understand with the principle of dictatorship of the proletariat. Do you assert that bolshevism was dictatoship of the proletariat? A single party that shot any opposition (Kronstaadt rebellion), is this dictatorship of the proletariat? You are defending bolshevism by saying this, without realizing it.

>> No.16346612

>>16346534
>>16346596
Why don't you respond to me
>>16346549
>>16346572

>> No.16346613

>>16346589
>Stubborn
dunno, i think clinging to century old outdated economic ideas and hoping "any day now" is pretty stubborn

>> No.16346619

>>16346589
I reject Marx's premises and his thesis.

>> No.16346622

>>16346608
Sowell is actually more respected in economics than Cockshott, which goes to show just how shit Cockshott is.

>> No.16346623

>>16346572
Been there, believe that, and no.

>> No.16346624

>>16346612
>Fascism
Lol so you're just a capitalist?

>> No.16346629

>>16346622
>Neoliberal bootlicker is more respected in neoliberal bootlicking field than a Marxist
Wow I'm so surprised.

>> No.16346631

>>16346611
>is this dictatorship of the proletariat?
Given how no commies have ever defined what "the proletariat" is, i'd say i dont know. I can talk to a hundred different commies and get a hundred answers.
I just solve this by concluding that commies dont know what theyre talking about and are sectarian and contradictory, and instead focus on more coherent political systems.

>> No.16346639

>>16346623
>and no
>>16346624
>fascist
>capitalist
Now you are just being intellectually dishonest.
The last words of Bombacci being
"Long live socialism! Long live fascism!"

>> No.16346640
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16346640

Imagine still not even having a thermodynamic theory of value in this year of our lord, get on my level brainlets.

>> No.16346641

>>16346622
Capitalism only favors what, and who, favors it.

>> No.16346643

>>16346596
I'm not the other anon I but also reject his materialism. I reject that there is an abstract force of History™ and that it progresses through the world in a certain way through a certain series of developments, that happens to culminate in what Marx already wanted to happen all along.

>> No.16346651

>>16346623
>and no
Why?

>> No.16346652

>>16346631
>Given how no commies have ever defined what "the proletariat" is
t. hasn't read a single page of any book written by a Marxist ever
Why do people who have never even read Marx act like they're 300 IQ geniuses for defending the status quo and using arguments we've all heard a billion times before?

>> No.16346655
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16346655

>>16346629
>Hurr, Marxism is only laughed at because of neoliberal bootlicking, not because it's completely shit
>Now let me tell you why this passage on how many meters of linen a 19th century factory needs is still extremely relevant for current AI tech and stock exchange companies and why we shouldnt use mathematics in economic predictions

>> No.16346656

>>16346597
I agree if we use your definition of left, but most people don't. The definition of left and leftist has changed whether we wanted it to or not. The word has become a slippery word.

>> No.16346660

>>16346631
>I instead focus on more coherent political systems.
Enjoy your cucked political economy.

>> No.16346671

>>16346652
I reject that The Proletariat™ have one common interest, act like one force and are one giant block.

>> No.16346677

>>16346641
Plenty of commie academics got cushy jobs, so i dont see how that's the case.
Economics is really the only field where Marx is just seen as a dead end, he's still taught in sociology as a foundational figure with Weber, literature studies with Freud, gender shit, philosophy, history, etc.
It's only economics where he's seen as outdated. Could this be a capitalist conspiracy, or is his economics just no longer relevant?

>> No.16346678

All the capitalist bootlickers in this thread think we have to 100% justify Marxism to them, but as material conditions continue deteriorate, they'll see we were right.

>> No.16346684

>>16346651
Fascism is Capitalism. It is a mode of production based on the meeting of the workers, who don't own any means of production, and are called the working class, with the means of production, owned by the owners of the means of production, called the Capitalists. Fascism, nazism, is Capitalism with nice uniform, spectacular speeches, wage labor, a State. It is inside the society of the spectacle. In the spectacle frame.

>> No.16346685

>>16346678
>If you don't like Marxism you're a capitalist bootlicker
Typical discord tranny logic

>> No.16346686

>>16346652
>Dude lumpenproles arent really proles because they dont buy our bullshit
>Dude a revolutionary vanguard of bourgeoise people and criminals are totally proles (and REAl proles actually!)
>Dude peasants are actually proles as well
We wouldn't have to repeat it a million times if you just accepted that your ideology is inconsistent.

>> No.16346694

>>16346656
The secret to having coherent productive debates is to adhere to the correct definitions of key terms. Of course, most of the shitposters here have no interest in that. They just want to fling shit.

>> No.16346695

>>16346660
Enjoy your non-existant utopia
oh wait

>> No.16346697

>>16346686
Nobody claims any of those except Leninoids

>> No.16346698

>>16346678
>you don't want jackbooted soldiers taking your stuff? bootlicker!

>> No.16346703

>>16346695
Marx is anti-utopian, retard. Learn to read.

>> No.16346704

>>16346678
I think that the material conditions will deteriorate but I'm not a capitalist. I think we'll have some planned economy eco-fascism to combat climate disaster. What do you think?

>> No.16346705

>>16346677
>Plenty of commie academics got cushy jobs
Tamed ones.

>> No.16346708

>>16346697
So nobody except the vast majority of commies, got it. That's like saying that no muslim believes Abu Bakr was the rightful first caliph except Sunnis.

>> No.16346710

>>16346684
>workers don't own any mode of production under fascism
You have never read a single piece of fascist philosophy in your life

>> No.16346712

>>16346698
t. doesn't know what private property means

Anyway I'm done arguing with petit bourj faggots, have fun defending capitalism while it continues to steal from you.

>> No.16346713

>>16346694
This isn't a debate I'm just saying a lot of people call themselves leftists whether you accept their claims or not. They outnumber you.

>> No.16346716

>>16346712
Is your body your private property?

>> No.16346717

>>16346703
Just because he shat on preceding utopian Socialists doesnt mean he's not utopian himself. It's just like how he's not actually doing science, even though he calls his socialism "scientific"

>> No.16346723

>>16346713
If you rely on what people call themselves to determine reality, you may as well put a loaded gun in your mouth and pull the trigger. NGMI.

>> No.16346725

>>16345630
>>16345845
There still isn't a better alternative. Capital remains the best way to determine who should own the means.

>> No.16346733

>>16346710
I've read Hitler. In any case, i didn't know workers owned IG farben, Bayer, weapons factories etc... during the 1933-1945 era. It was owned by owners of the means of production, aka Capitalists.

>> No.16346737

>>16346705
And? If they wanted to they could still do Marxist economics. In fact, there are Marxist economists right now; theyre not blacklisted, theyre not targeted for assassination, theyre not being fired from their departments. It's just that theyre a minority because theyre just stuck on trying to fix predictions and equations that others have just dismissed as being false.
Again, what you think is a conspiracy is just the field of economics moving past Marx' outdated views.

>> No.16346739

>>16346716
See private and personal property distinction

>> No.16346740

>>16346712
I know, my family owns a small forest and if the local commie party had it their way, smelly gypsies and other subhuman undesirables would come there and steal wood without any fear of repercussions.

>> No.16346741

>>16346694
Leftist originally described liberals and nationalists as well as socialists. Now it means in favor of toppling oppressive unequitable social systems of which capitalism is considered just one. Marxists can't get over this semantic shift and insist they are in charge of words.

>> No.16346742

>>16346708
All your confusions would be resolved if you simply read a book for a change. Sadly it appears you lack the cognitive horsepower to achieve even so basic a task.

>> No.16346748

>>16346733
>i've read hitler
Imagine someone who has only read lenin thinking he understands communism.
That's what you sound like.

>> No.16346749

>>16346739
The difference is that one is movable and one isn't? That's fucking retarded. Is a trailer home personal property or private property?

>> No.16346751

>>16346723
Don't get flustered, wow you get angry easily anon. Your definitions are out of touch I'm afraid. Just like your political and economic theory. Enjoy the 19th century.

>> No.16346757

>>16346742
Weird, when commies tell me to read a book they usually tell me to read Lenin.
See this is why it's so tiring to argue with commies. You first have to wade through posts of "hurr not really communism" before they tell you what flavour they are, before you can accurately tell them why their ideas are fucking retarded.

So what kind of commie are you? Even leftcoms sucked Lenins dick.

>> No.16346759

>>16345630
>read Cockshott
no

>> No.16346761

>>16346749
Your house is personal property if you don't rent it out

>> No.16346766

>>16346740
Based, can we start an white ethno commune in your parents forest anon and larp as Junger that sounds fun

>> No.16346767

>>16346737
Marx is the number one thinker on this very board, which is populated by mostly young men. It means Marx is far from being dead, but on the contrary gaining interest.

>> No.16346770

>>16346751
I'm at peace. You sound very upset that the meaning of a word doesn't change as soon as you misapprehend it.

>> No.16346778
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16346778

>>16346767
Only because people who have read nothing but Marx can blame everything on Capitalism while doing nothing about it.

>> No.16346782

>>16346761
I realize I misread the Wikipedia article, I had been talking about common-law personal property instead of Marxist theory's personal property. How about a Raspberry PI which is mining bitcoin? It's generating passive income, so is it private property?

>> No.16346784
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16346784

>>16346767
>Marx being talked about on /lit/ means he's also an important figure in the consensus of modern economics
I suppose Guenon is an authority on mathematics as well, right?

>> No.16346786

>omg you really just said *that*?!
>heccin yikeserino sweetie, why don't you wead a bookie!!!
Here's a proposition, Imma read book on that marxist shit as soon as your lot reads a book on theology and stops to argue in that area like r/atheism did 10 years ago.

>> No.16346789

>>16346770
Unfortunately we're not in charge of the meanings of words anon. I would love if The Left were the left of old, the 'real left' but unfortunately times have changed and so has the meaning of the term. You need to come to terms with that.

>> No.16346797

>>16346767
>Marx is the number one thinker on this very board
No he's the number one thinker to the small but persistent band of discord fags who want to make him the most talked about thinker on this board. The rest of us are tired of you peddling him.

>> No.16346798

>>16346784
What do you mean? Of course the number zero doesn't exist, Guenon told me so.

>> No.16346808

>>16346782
>How about a Raspberry PI which is mining bitcoin? It's generating passive income, so is it private property?
I would say yes, but in case you didn't know, you cannot mine bitcoin with a raspberry pi since many years. It's been done in giga mining factories in china, employing wage workers, and thus are undeniably Capitalists means of productions.

>> No.16346810

>>16346767
>Marx is the number one thinker on this very board
LMAO

>> No.16346811

>>16346789
Your ultraliberalism with respect to terminological change is fortunately only in your head.

>> No.16346824

>>16346782
I don't think mining BTC would even be a thing under communism. It would probably be personal property, you're not exploiting anyone mining BTC. What you mine are the fruits of your production.

I'm also not a Marxist, I'm a fascist that only tries to clear up misunderstanding between people who haven't read about what they're critiquing.
I'm also
>>16346748
>>16346368

>> No.16346828

>>16346767
/lit/ is a barometer for nothing but the whimsical fancies of an extremely tiny fringe of basement dwelling sperg virgins

>> No.16346836

>>16346810
In frequency and intensity of posts, it is. I don't even like it very much, because most posters are agressive, and didn't read Marx, and there are also the paid shills, but it is what it is.

>> No.16346837

>>16346824
>What you mine are the fruits of your production.
But I didn't build the computer or the bitcoin protocol, and probably just lifted most of the software from someone else

>> No.16346839

>>16346828
And not just /lit/, but this applies to 4chan in general too.

>> No.16346840
File: 33 KB, 508x507, 1588936249259.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16346840

Before entering this thread, I predicted that the following things would happen, and i was proven right on all accounts:
>Commies argue what's real communism and what isnt
>Commies argue that the communist experiments weren't real communism and also only failed because of capitalism
>Commies argue how Marxist economics, frozen in time for over a century, is still 100% relevant just as how the Noble Quran is a message that remained true from the moment it was recited by the lips of the Prophet Muhammad (عَلَيْهِ ٱلسَّلَامُ) to the Day of Judgment
Youre stuck in the past, youre stuck on the defensive. You no longer offer anything of value to any of the people you claim to represent. Just excuses for past failures. This is why the Right is ascendant.

>> No.16346844

>>16345832
it is not possible to go beyond marx or before marx
he addresses the most concrete and immediate facts of the world, which is to say, how life is produced and maintained, our mode of living (“as men express their life, so they are”). the fundamental mode of production that he described is even more dominant than when he wrote Capital, it is now the world order

>> No.16346845

>>16346808
You can still mine it, you just can't do it profitably.
Which gives me another question actually, if your profitable private property apparatus suddenly stops being profitable, does it stop being private property?

>> No.16346848

>>16346811
Are you denying that words change meanings over time? What, is there no Marxist conception of Historical Lexiconography or something? That all words are marching to a perfect dictionary utopia

>> No.16346850

>>16346828
>extremely tiny fringe of basement dwelling sperg virgins
This population is booming.

>> No.16346854

>>16346837
In the example you are giving I thought it was assumed you were living in the communist mode of production.
Where se would you have gotten the computer?
Like I said, I doubt crypto, or even money as we know it would be a thing under communism.

>> No.16346860

>>16346844
>it is not possible to go beyond marx or before marx
This is religious dogma anon not political/economic/social analysis

>> No.16346864

>>16346840
You’re literally just a turning point USA conservative. You have nothing to offer. You know nothing about art or philosophy. You’re a paper tiger

>> No.16346867

>>16346845
>if your profitable private property apparatus suddenly stops being profitable, does it stop being private property?
No, a means of production is a mean of production. Whether profitable or not.

>> No.16346868

>>16346836
You are fucking wrong. Lurk more, minimum of 3 years before making any further judgement.

>> No.16346870
File: 26 KB, 713x611, 1565976016897.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16346870

>>16346864
>Commie calling anyone a paper tiger

>> No.16346879

>>16346860
i don’t know what that means
why is it a bad thing to point out that his work will always be relevant as long as capitalism is the dominant mode of life in the world

>> No.16346887

>>16346848
Theoretical terminology does not change. The Logos still means the Logos.

>> No.16346894

>>16346840
>This is why the Right is ascendant.
Enjoy your Right political economy. Your Right organization of material production for profit. Your Right private property of the means of production.

>> No.16346901

>>16346854
No, I'm just talking about the distinction between personal and private property that Marxists make in the world we currently live in.
You're right, I doubt cypto would be a thing under communism

>> No.16346902

>>16346879
It's religious dogma in the sense that it bars any possibility of him being wrong. It's like saying there is nothing beyond the Logos or the Quran.
No scientist worth his salt will ever dare to say "this is how it is, there's no possibility of it being otherwise". Darwin was proven wrong, Newton was proven wrong, and Marx most certainly was proven wrong as well.

>> No.16346904

>>16345845
>who should hold the means of production?

The people who want to actually produce things.

>> No.16346905

>>16346879
I'm not saying it's not relevant, it's gone on to inspire many thinkers who took his ideas in different directions. I'm saying it's not correct. You're treating his word as gospel at this point.

>> No.16346914

>>16346867
Is Photoshop a means of production?

>> No.16346915

>>16346864
>You know nothing about art or philosophy.
There's more to philosophy than Marx and psychoanalysis. Nietzsche was right to despise all who overtheorize.

>> No.16346919

>>16346887
Theoretical terminology does take on new meanings when the theory changes and evolves. If your theory is stagnant that's your fault. Also, The Left is not a theoretical term, is it? How does Marx use it?

>> No.16346921

>>16346209
It's happened under the technological system, regardless of economic model.

>> No.16346929

>>16346894
I will, as will most proles.
>Why do you want to believe in God, nation or a family when you can make bricks in the people's factory forever! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

>> No.16346934

>>16346914
>>16346901
Read Marx, kids. He discusses technology extensively. Whether it's a knife or a Raspberry Pi, the same principles apply.

>> No.16346940

>>16346929
That's capitalism, retard.

>> No.16346941

I want to strangle commies.

>> No.16346942

If marxists are gonna just create their own autistic definitions for the political spectrum then I'm going to do the same.
Left=pro-Enlightenment
Right=Counter-Enlightenment
Or we could even go further and define it as:
Left=pro-Enlightenment and slave morality
Right=Counter-Enlightenment and master morality
This way the Right no longer has to associate with christcucks and its reputation can no longer be tainted by conservarucks.

>> No.16346945
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16346945

Why are these threads always complete dogshit?
Even unironic nazi threads arent as bad as these. It's like two gangs of monkeys, each about 15 monkeys strong, throwing shit at one another for hours on end.
Why are threads on Marx always so horrible?

>> No.16346948

>>16346934
Marx is wront because his philosophy does not answer to spirit.

>> No.16346953

>>16346948
What does spirit have to do with political economy? He wasn't a theologian.

>> No.16346954

>>16346934
So is Photoshop a means of production or not?

>> No.16346956

>>16346940
>you can produce whatever you want without any alienation.
>But you wont have any family (thats reactionary), or any country, or a nation, or a religion
>Just production, nothing more
And that's assuming your worker's paradise will come to pass, which will obviously never happen.

>> No.16346957

>>16346929
Your children will work for the owners of the means of production, making them rich and richer, and will be raised at school to be drones, standardized units of material production. Enjoy it.

>> No.16346963

>>16346956
Read Marx, moron. You are embarrassingly clueless.

>> No.16346964

>>16345630
you can't transcend in Marxism only degrade

>> No.16346967

>>16346957
No, according to you capitalism is going to collapse any day now and then we get dictatorial socialism and then that magically melts into communism, so it's all good, right?

>> No.16346968
File: 46 KB, 675x680, 1593543898022.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16346968

>>16346957
>and will be raised at school to be drones, standardized units of material production
Funny how this was exactly what happened to kids under communist regimes. But please, tell me what's best for my kids.

>> No.16346969
File: 101 KB, 210x195, 1589195852499.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16346969

>>16346864
>no u
Try again pal

>> No.16346973

>>16346957
>and will be raised at school to be drones
Opposed to what? There's quite literally one option left and it's basically ending universal education. That would be pretty good desu

>> No.16346979

>>16346956
Obviously you didn't read Marx. By now you should know that we Marx's readers detect you a mile away.

>> No.16346983

>>16346902
we know that the communist hypothesis is correct because we are certain that the way we live now is not good
the truth of communism is not scientific in the sense that a high school chemistry experiment is,it’s dynamic,contingent on the rational (spiritual) faculties and will of the masses, it is true if it is believed to be true
>>16346914
no

>> No.16346990

>>16346953
Unironically everything.
People should be living less wasteful lives and be practicing moderation.
You cannot have exponential economic growth with a finite quantity of resources.
Not only that, but Marxism does little to combat centralization and still allows for the speculation of labor.

>> No.16346994

>>16346983
Holy fuck marxism is truly a death cult

>> No.16346999

>>16346963
Marx actually barely mentions it, beyond really superficial and vague aphorisms like "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" or "man can hunt in the morning, raise cattle in the evening, philosophize in the evening" etc.
You can see that Marx was really scared of actually predicting what it'd look like, because he'd realize just how juvenile and unreachable this world would really be, and how he never really managed to exorcize the ghost of utopianism.

>> No.16347000

>>16346994
you live in america bro

>> No.16347001

>>16346954
No. The means of production are capital goods and assets that require organized collective labor effort, as opposed to individual effort, to operate on.

>> No.16347003

>>16346979
And we can detect you marxists because of your lack of soul, your dogmatism, your inability to take a joke and your passive aggressive tone

>> No.16347010

>>16346967
In between you'll get this.
>>16346968
>communist regimes
>USSR
>communist
Here we go again and again.
>>16346973
>There's quite literally one option left and it's basically ending universal education.
That's what Marxists who have read Marx believe.

>> No.16347012

>>16347001
Your own self is an asset. Photoshop is a means of production because of this.

>> No.16347014

>>16346979
Tell me then what a commie society will look like. And dont say "we cant make predictions, that's utopianisum!", because there's no fucking way anyone is going on board with giving you the entire world when you have no clue what you want.
I actually have read Marx, and his inability to describe an alternative to capitalism is one of the most commonly stated points of criticism.

>> No.16347015
File: 35 KB, 300x465, 978920006032.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16347015

>>16346844
>he addresses the most concrete and immediate facts of the world, which is to say, how life is produced and maintained
only if you are a materialist.

>> No.16347019

>>16347012
Read it again.

>> No.16347023

Does Marx even believe in the shit he wrote?
I know he was hired by a group of catholic communists to write the communist manifesto

>> No.16347026

>>16347010
You said you were going to stop replying a long time ago anon. Aren't you getting bored? Do you get frustrated when your efforts to convert people don't result in any change?

>> No.16347030
File: 46 KB, 492x492, 1537300084713.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16347030

>>16346983
>we know that the communist hypothesis is correct because we are certain that the way we live now is not good
K, so now you're regurgitating Badieu, who is a fucking cultist, even by commie standards.
I really feel like im talking to a priest or preacher of the Holy Logos, not something i would ever call "science".

Also the logic that hypothesis X is true because life sucks is just fucking ridiculous. It's on the same level as saying "We know God is real because otherwise we wouldn't exist"

>> No.16347032

>>16347001
Is a 3D printer a means of production?

>> No.16347037

>>16347014
Huterrite community with technology.

>> No.16347038

>>16347010
>That's what Marxists who have read Marx believe.
It's interesting to see the religious language here.
>Only true followers of the prophet Marx believe in the right option!
not a cult btw

>> No.16347039

>>16347000
Nope, one of my family members got killed by one of you commie larpers decades ago. Enjoy hell.
>>16347010
Note than when I mean "ending universal education" I mean actually ENDING formal education for the masses. So none of that stuff you fantasize about the proles making their own schools.

>> No.16347051

>>16347037
That basically means small-scale religious communes /ethnostates.

>> No.16347053
File: 2.71 MB, 1920x1740, 67D3675A-E6FF-4B77-8AD6-8B5F7B81C2DF.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16347053

>>16347014
like this kind of

>> No.16347054

>>16347026
Not me, but i'm not trying to convert anyone. I'm posting on a anon board. So are you. Or are you a paid shill? In this case, you do it for money.

>> No.16347058

>>16346983
>it is true if it is believed to be true
i think marx would make an entire book with rage and reeeeeeeee explaining how he is entirely scientific only because you say that.

>> No.16347059

>>16347051
Based, that's what I want but I'm no marxist

>> No.16347062

>>16347059
Same, but im also not a marxist

>> No.16347063

>>16347030
>We know God is real because otherwise we wouldn't exist
thats right though

>> No.16347064

>>16347001
>>16347019
This is why I hate Marx, he is so fucking bad with labels. "means of production" shouldn't include "require organized collective labor effort" within its definition because the label utterly fails to express this aspect. It's like intentionally trying to be confusing, or just being a shitty thinker.

>> No.16347066

>>16347032
Do you need to hire a team of workers and managers to operate it? There's your answer.

>> No.16347070

>>16346999
I believe Engels even said the positive content of communism as a goal doesn't exist, so you can only speak about it like negative theology. Nevertheless Marx did indulge in speculation on it as did Trotsky and others. Communists will never say exactly how much speculation is strictly illicit and why. They're excessively slippery on this point. Fighting for a phantasm that they are forbidden to try to describe. Wild!

>> No.16347071

>>16347058
marx isn’t alive now so he wouldn’t be able to know why i’m breaking with him on this position

>> No.16347072

>>16347054
No, I'm just a former Marxist who's enjoyed watching you try to defend Marxism. I'm assuming leftypol is your home. If so you must get annoyed at all the defending of 'Actual existing socialism' that happens over there.

>> No.16347076

>>16347051
> I mean actually ENDING formal education for the masses.
Me too. Proof that you systematically misunderstood everything we say, because you are on the defensive.
>>16347051
Huterrites are not communist because they are small scale religious communes/ ethnostates. They are small scale religious communes/ethnostates, because they are communists. Causality reversal, as usual, in Capitalism. Put Capitlaism (private property of the means of production, wage labor) in Huterrites communities, and they would explode, both socially and ethnically, in just a few years.

>> No.16347079

>>16347064
It makes sense in the context of his contemporary capitalism, but it just doesnt really apply anymore in today's economic systems.

>> No.16347082

>>16347062
Let's go live in the woods

>> No.16347092

>>16346396
>he believed the Crusades were ultimately about religion
Sad

>> No.16347096

>>16347076
>Huterrites are not communist because they are small scale religious communes/ ethnostates. They are small scale religious communes/ethnostates, because they are communists.
There are shitloads of small-scale religious ethnostates that arent communists. Amish, for example. Your causality doesn't add up.

>> No.16347109

>>16347076
What if the proletariat don't want to remove borders or nations and like living within an ethnically homogeneous society. Then what? Tell them they're wrong according to marx and they're having their borders abolished in the name of proletarian internationalism?

>> No.16347111

Is communism's goal to make everyone on Earth live the lifestyle of a lower middle class westerner? If so, how do they think the ecosystem would survive? Reminder there's 8 billion on Earth and counting

>> No.16347113
File: 28 KB, 728x564, 81e55cd77ce2558f50a24f522c1e2d59.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16347113

>>16347071
maybe he is alive and you dont know it. maybe he say something to you tomorrow. what kind of stupid answer is this?. you are basically saying marxism is based on faith and every marxist will die before recognizing that so i dont know. you are a visionary or a retard.

>> No.16347115

>>16347064
Means of production can also be owned by a single individual, but then it isn't a Capitalist production, but more handcraft. Marx favored handcraftmen, owning their own means of production. But Capitalism made them obsolete throught primitive accumulation.

>> No.16347120

>>16347064
Everything in Marx is defined in terms of social relations. People are used to thinking about e.g., ownership as a person-object relation when in reality it is a person-person relation. Exploitation requires an exploitee. An artisan who makes sculptures out of his own shit is not exploiting the labor of others.

>> No.16347136

>>16347120
An artisan who makes sculptures out of his own shit is producing more value than a marxist in 2020

>> No.16347138

>>16347109
God you are such a retard. It's Capitalism that is destroying your ethnic homogeneity. You just don't notice it. Supply and demand if labor market. Mass immigration. Decrease price of wages. More profit. What does it feel for you to not understand in late 2020 what i understood in 2014?

>> No.16347142

>>16347079
What? Nobody is employed anymore? Nobody works for an organization that produces goods and services?

>> No.16347147

>>16347138
We realize that capitalism is destroying ethnic homogeinity, but it's the communists who prevent us from doing anything about it.

>> No.16347149

>>16347136
Wow, you're mad.

>> No.16347156

>>16347138
I understand all that and agree. I'm an anti-capitalist. But as a marxist you want that as well, don't you? The abolishment of all borders?

>> No.16347159

>>16347142
Not him, but it doesn't apply because a lot of people work as individual freelancers today, thanks to technology that didn't exist when Marx was alive. It's a lot easier to "work for yourself" and own your own business now.

>> No.16347160

>>16347147
>it's the communists who prevent us from doing anything about it
What the fuck have you been smoking?

>> No.16347168

>>16347160
When the right protests about open borders and immigration, it's usually the commies who call them racist or start to riot. It's not the neoliberals or capitalists, even though they tend to benefit from it.
It's one of the more obvious ways in which the modern commies have become the bootlicking slaves of international capitalists

>> No.16347170

>>16347160
Answer me, do you want (or think is inevitable due to historical materialism) the abolishment of all borders? No more nations but one worldwide communist society?

>> No.16347175

>>16347159
That's mostly PMC work.

>> No.16347187

>>16347168
>it's usually the commies who call them racist or start to riot
Total nonsense.

>>16347170
No.

>> No.16347194

>>16347175
Not true anymore thanks to computers and the internet.

>> No.16347202

>>16347187
>Total nonsense.
Lmao so who is it then? Whenever people argue for nationalism and border control, what do the communists do? Do they side with the nationalist right, or do they side with neoliberals who want more flow of immigrants and labour force?

>> No.16347207

>>16347194
Complex organizations (or systems of labor) are required to produce complex goods and services. Whether everyone involved in the production is employed by the same company is irrelevant.

>> No.16347222

>>16347202
Radlibs are enabled and financed by the ruling class. You only need to watch a few minutes of corporate news media to understand that.

>> No.16347230

>>16347207
People don't really understand production this way anymore and that's all that was being implied. Production can come from a single individual. Software development, for example, can be handled by a single individual. A single person can run their own business, alone, from the other side of the planet, and be profitable. They can exclusively develop their own apps, not owned by anyone else other than themselves. Complex organizations are no longer necessary for all kinds of production.

>> No.16347252

>>16347222
Your side is in whole financed by the ruling class, yourself included. There is no left anymore, by your definition of the left.

>> No.16347270

>>16347252
No, the ruling class is not financing its own enemies. They may be dumb, but they're not stupid.

>> No.16347273

LTV is false

>> No.16347277

>>16347270
I mean, that's true. Not many billionaires fund far right isolationists

>> No.16347288

>>16347270
Exactly, that's why the far right are deplatformed, demonized, fired from their jobs etc while people calling themselves socialists, leftists, communists aren't

>> No.16347293

>>16347273
I wish this was the first and last post in this thread

>> No.16347310

>>16347053
>It looks like a painting of ancient people getting drunk
Because communists are so dumb, there is at least a 25% chance you are being serious. I am trying hard to block that out of my mind but that possibility is painful.

>> No.16347315

>>16347230
If I'm understanding you, your point is that business has become more modularized, which in combination with information technology facilitates the outsourcing of non-core operations. The overall complexity is still there, though, it has only been decentralized.

>> No.16347323

>>16346844
Peak intellectual dishonesty and delusion.

>> No.16347332

>>16347288
>while people calling themselves
You're rather SJW-like in your fixation on "self-identification". The "woke" IdPol types and the "redpilled" IdPol types are part of the same mechanism that the ruling class deploys to fragment working class solidarity.

>> No.16347339

>>16347138
its almost like you can be anti capitalist yet not Marxist or something

>> No.16347351

>>16347339
As has been pointed out in this thread, Marx wasn't very specific about his positive platform. So the idea of non-Marxist socialism is rather bereft of content.

>> No.16347363

>>16347332
I only said that instead of the left because you kept insisting they weren't the 'real left' but you didn't address my point either way, why are right wingers deplatformed and left wingers aren't? If left wingers are the real threat to the system?

>> No.16347372

>>16347339
Of course you can, it's this kind of dogmatic thinking that traps marxists into their religion, their cult of marx.

>> No.16347429

>>16347363
As I said, those people are not leftists. Leftism is a materialist ideology that rejects capitalism and private property. Radical liberalism is the opposite. The strategy of the ruling class is to elevate radlibs and deplatform the politically incorrect, thereby magnifying cultural antagonism within the proletariat. The only reason to do it that way instead of the reverse is that the majority of the proletariat are socially moderate-to-conservative with limited sympathy for 'woke' causes.

>> No.16347445

>>16347429
I enjoyed talking to you anon but I'm going to bed. Sorry for not engaging properly, you seem very knowledgeable about Marxism. Have a good day/night/whatever.

>> No.16347464

>>16347445
Have a good one

>> No.16347466

>>16345858
In Romania and surely other commie nations the intelligence guys were picked from among the smartest, they usually measured that by school grades - if your average GPA was in the top and you also knew at least two foreign languages you were selected.

Now the same guys after communism fell told us how things work - let's take Comecon - the principle was of mutual aid and is what allowed this superstate structure early on to work and grow.. reality is that every single representative there was sent with the specific purpose of generating revenues for his country and deceive as much as possible, example import stuff from Germans and sell it to Ukraine lying that's from own production, the end game was to obtain a foreign currency surplus.. every single country did this and Marxist dogma and ideology mattered little among them.

>> No.16347499

>>16345909
Jesus said:
Luke 6:
39And he spoke a parable to them as well: “Can a blind man guide a blind man? Will not both fall into a pit? 40A disciple is not above his teacher; but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.

Consider that the God inside Jesus is the origin of consciousness and creator of our souls, take his words here.

>> No.16347942

>>16347429
Are you implying marxists do get cancelled? If so, name them

>> No.16347953

>>16345630
Arguing with Marxists is exactly like arguing with creationists, prove me wrong

>> No.16347955

>>16347942
Read it again.

>> No.16347973

>>16347955
>why are right wingers deplatformed and left wingers aren't?
>As I said, those people are not leftists
You are basically saying those that aren't getting deplatformed aren't real left wingers. Who are those leftists getting deplatformed then?

>> No.16348007
File: 86 KB, 1000x1000, opposites-attract-comic0.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16348007

>>16347138
>>16347160
>>16347168
>>16347187
Still relevant

>> No.16348012

>>16347332
>>16347429
>leftists call everyone who is more right wing than Marx a nazi
>akchyually liberals are not the real leftists
There is no point in making distictions when you are ignorant yourself

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