Why are anti-Islam scholars so bent on

[Anonymous No.16886432]

attacking the morality of the Qur'an from a Western lens and dismissing it as "evil", while the West itself has imperfect morality and therefore is unable to judge perfectly?
Quite frankly, I believe the Qur'an is without fault and therefore its opponents need to make silly claims about Muhammad and the Hadith or just straight up lie. They will never address the Qur'an.

[Anonymous No.16886455]

>>16886432
What's with all the ESL islamtards recently? Is this yet another discord group's astroturf operation?

[Anonymous No.16886465]

>>16886455
It's as if you didn't even read the point of my thread, the irony is very painful, I hope you will recover mentally.

[doubtposting !!0CYbMy7gCdH No.16886475]

>>16886432
>why are anti-islam scholars so bent on being anti-islam
??

[Anonymous No.16886491]

>>16886475
Read my post more honestly please. They are never addressing the consistencies in the Qur'an, or the strength of the arguments in it.

[doubtposting !!0CYbMy7gCdH No.16886518]

>>16886491
no, the fact you know they're anti-islam and still feel the need to ask why is crucial. there's nothing open-ended in your question that could let you in on anything you don't already know. if you want to understand, you have to want to understand.

[Anonymous No.16886527]

>>16886518
They are against Islam because it upsets their worldview. Immoral deeds cannot go unpunished, the hereafter is waiting.

[Anonymous No.16886537]

>>16886432
Western "scholars" believe in subjective morality, yet criticize others' morality. There is no logical consistency.

[doubtposting !!0CYbMy7gCdH No.16886539]

>>16886527
>They are against Islam because it upsets their worldview
correct. if you want to understand more than that you have to want to do that.

[Anonymous No.16886540]

This is all very vague, why not present a concrete example.

[Anonymous No.16886541]

Because discussing Islam from a moral point of view is very topical considering Muslims have been committing terror attacks in the West regularly since 2001. It may be repetitive and sterile but it attracts clicks and sales since it's topical.
At the same time, many who discard the Quran on a moral basis also discard the Bible and generally discard the claim of divine revelation at all. So unless you can prove the divine origins of the Quran, there's really no reason for a secular humanist, for instance, to engage seriously at all its claims about itself, or rather I should say the Islamic claims about it.

For what it's worth, I as a Christian have serious issues with the Quran which are not on a moral basis. Not that Islamic morality isn't indeed repugnant to Christianity, but rather any authority it must have has to rely on it being a true book at all, so that's far more important than criticizing the Quran based on preconceived notions of what is moral or what God would want. But I'd like to discuss this with Muslims in real life first before trying to discuss it online. I'm at Surah 34 so far and I would say that the Quranic claims about its own authority amount so far to "just trust me bro" when it comes to it's criticism of Judaism and Christianity, although at least Muhammad can make a good basic point against Levantine paganism (but mostly retreading on things the prophets already said against Canaanite paganism over a millennia before).

[Anonymous No.16886565]

>>16886540
Hitchens and Dawkins said it was a vile religion, yet they couldn't explain why.

>>16886541
>he doesn't know how the entire middle east got CIA'd

[Anonymous No.16886580]

>>16886432
I agree, a lot of people in the west are really stupid. They're okay with killing babies but have problem with Islam killing gays? Makes no sense.

[Anonymous No.16886585]

>>16886432

>Cut off your foreskin and worship a black desert cube yaaaaasss kqweeeeen slayyyyyy

[Anonymous No.16886613]

>>16886541
>I'm at Surah 34 so far and I would say that the Quranic claims about its own authority amount so far to "just trust me bro"
Spoken like someone who doesn't understand. The Quran is self-referential in a sense not that it tells you "just trust me bro" so you believe in Quran. When it say Quran is sent from Allah and in it they ayahs are clear, it means that once you believe in Allah you will understand what is meant by that. You can't have faith without proof, but you can't have proof without faith - in essence you need to take a leap of faith, ie., believe, then your faith will retroactively make sense

[Anonymous No.16886620]

>>16886432
>I believe the Qur'an is without fault
What do you think about the Quran mistakenly defining the trinity concept as Allah, Jesus, and Mary all being gods?

[Anonymous No.16886623]

>>16886620
>mistakenly

[Anonymous No.16886643]

>>16886620
Show me where it does that.

[Anonymous No.16886644]

>>16886623
Yeah, mistakenly. If Allah was the real author of the Quran He would not have made such a colossal error.

[Anonymous No.16886668]

>>16886644
I don't see it, how was he mistaken?

[Anonymous No.16886673]

Why should I believe in religion? I already believe in God.

[Anonymous No.16886694]

>>16886673
The religion is a conduit for God

[Anonymous No.16886699]

>>16886668
>>16886643
He won't reply and unknowingly confirmed what OP was saying.

[Anonymous No.16886703]

>>16886694
No it isn't. I am a conduit of God.

[Anonymous No.16886707]

muslims are violent

[Anonymous No.16886715]

>>16886694
Religion is the bastardization of spirituality and God

[Anonymous No.16886720]

>>16886715
Wrong. Religion is the carrier, a conduit, a vessel for God

[Anonymous No.16886731]

>>16886720
Oh ok lmao you've totally changed my mind. It makes sense now that you've repeated it.

[Anonymous No.16886734]

>>16886715
only when people fail to understand the purpose of exoteric practices and devolve into legalism

[Anonymous No.16886740]

>>16886731
>It makes sense now that you've repeated it.
I've also used synonyms. Don't forget that.

[Anonymous No.16886743]

there are millions of religious hylics out there

[Anonymous No.16886747]

>>16886643
>>16886668
>>16886699
And as Allah said, "O Isa son of Maryam, (Jesus son of Mary) did you say to mankind, "cTake me and my mother to your selves as two gods, apart from Allah '?"

[Anonymous No.16886760]

>>16886747
>"O Isa son of Maryam, (Jesus son of Mary) did you say to mankind, "cTake me and my mother to your selves as two gods, apart from Allah '?"
Well, did he say that? I recon he didn't. Yet he is the one billions of people pray to, hang on the wall, etc. How is he not a God?

[Anonymous No.16886767]

>>16886747
And as Allah said "Step back, can't get spunk on the mink, I mean damn, what would Jeromey Romey Romey Rome think?"

[Anonymous No.16886776]

>>16886432
>The morality of the west is imperfect
That's your opinion, but I don't care about the morality of government and other people. As a Christian, such things point to Islam's unhealthy collectivism and ultimate lack of courage. My faith is not diminished by the fact that my neighbour rejects it; if the whole world were wrong then I'd still be right.

Point being, the west does not judge Islam morally, the west and Islam are simply incompatible, since the rationale for religious liberty and tolerance is specifically Christian. We more-or-less do not care what some people half-way around the world think about it.

[Anonymous No.16886789]

>>16886565
Yes, Western values are certainly trashy, and America caused a lot of suffering in Islamic countries. But you asked why Western critics of Islam focus on the moral aspect. It is because it has been very topical to Westerners for 20 years due to Muslims committing attacks in the West, and tropical discussions are more interesting to people.

>>16886613
Why is that not an inconsistent axiom? Or are there other things I should first believe in blindly, then retroactively they will make sense? It sounds like shooting an arrow then painting the target around it.
Also, I rather had in mind the specific claims against Judaism and Christianity.

Against Judaism: Muhammad is perhaps being rejected, but so were the other prophets, so if anything that proves his prophethood. Counterpoint: the Jews do expect a Prophet to come, but per Deuteronomy the Prophet must teach the same Law as Moses, yet Muhammad is bringing his own commandments (and isn't even a Jew anyway).

Against Christianity: God cannot be one if Jesus is the Son of God, and Muhammad is the Ahmad (which traditionally means the Paraclete according to Islam) that was announced to come. Counterpoint: the topic of the oneness of God was already addressed in the 4th century (and Muhammad didn't even address the Christian understanding of it, although ironically Muslims would have a very similar debate concerning the createdness of the Quran), and Christians already believe Jesus is the Prophet and the Holy Spirit is the Paraclete and were not looking forward to a further prophet (but maybe to the return of Enoch and Elijah).

And the Quranic/Muslim counterpoint to these is... the Torah and Gospel were actually corrupted by those who wanted to hide the truth.
In my opinion Muhammad was right to dunk on pagan nonsense, but he seemed to be very confused by why the Jews would reject him and why the Christians worshipped Jesus.

Also, the Quran appeared in the 7th century. Interpreting earlier texts through a later one is nonsensical. And before you say the New Testament does this with the Old Testament... even though Jews and Christians disagree on the veracity of the NT, the authors of the NT were still writing as Jews in attempted continuity with Jewish tradition, and indeed nearly all of the NT just interprets what is already there in the OT after centuries of development that led to certain mythologies and expectations. But Muslims do not consider the Quran to be an extra book of the Bible that adds to it but rather to replace and correct it.

[Anonymous No.16886792]

>>16886776
>We more-or-less do not care what some people half-way around the world think about it.
That's why "we" go around bombing those people half-way around the world because we don't care

[Anonymous No.16886799]

People actually believe what Quran says?? I thought it was all a joke.

[Anonymous No.16886802]

>>16886760
But nobody has ever believed he or Mary were gods beside Allah. This is proof enough to show that the Quran was written by somebody who had only a limited understanding of Christianity.

[Anonymous No.16886820]

>>16886792
If you think those are Christian crusades, and not missions for resources (mainly oil) or anti-terrorism operations then you haven't been paying attention

They're still awful, of course, but they're not an attempt to force Christianity on the east

[Anonymous No.16886822]

laws to govern by, according to the political ideology that is islam:

on marriage and sex:
>you can have sex with 9 year olds (they are considered adult women)
- bukhari 62:64 [sahih]
- quran 65:4
>you can have poliamorous relationships (4 wives)
- quran 4:3
>you can have prostitution (muttah). even with married women, so long as "your right hand posseses them"
- quran 4:24
- hadith cannot abrogate quran
>"marriage" is, legally speaking, a transaction, and a women cannot marry on her own, she has to be sold into it (by a muslim man). christian women can be married to muslim man, but muslim women cannot be married to christian men.
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIC3y5QN3AY
>you wife is to breastfeed adult men
- sahih muslim 17:33 [sahih]
- sahih muslim 17:36 [sahih]
- ibn majah 9:1944 [hasan: good]
>you can marry the former wife of your adopted son, beacuse islamic law doesn't allow adoptions anyway
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaynab_bint_Jahsh
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_adoptional_jurisprudence
>a woman cannot refuse to be fucked by her husband, if she does, the angels will curse her for the whole night
- bukhari 59:48
>wives can be beaten
- quran 4:34
- al bukhari 5825
>female votes are worth half that of a man, because they're stupid
- quran 2:282

[Anonymous No.16886824]

>>16886792
or the centuries of missionary work

[Anonymous No.16886827]

>>16886822
laws to govern by, according to the political ideology that is islam:

special laws, only for muhammad:
>muhammad can fuck any woman
- quran 33:50-51
- https://muflihun.com/bukhari/60/311 (sahih)
>you have to pay muhammad if you want to talk to him
- quran 58:12
>you have to pay muhammad one fifth of the booty, and the best of the booty
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khums
>he who obeys muhammad is obeying allah
- quran 4:80
>don't try talking to muhammad. and don't marry his widowed wives
- quran 33:53
>kill anyone who sladers muhammad
- abi dawud 4361 (sahih)

[Anonymous No.16886828]

>>16886789
>Why is that not an inconsistent axiom?
If you know the meaning of the axiom, the mathematical one, you would know that every axiom is just assumed to be true beyond reasonable doubt. From there on you can build more complex axioms relying on those basic ones, but you can never do that unless you assume those axioms are true.

>In my opinion Muhammad was right to dunk on pagan nonsense, but he seemed to be very confused by why the Jews would reject him and why the Christians worshipped Jesus.
It's a natural extension to follow. Moses found the people worshipping Animals instead of God, yet some didn't listen and reverted back to paganism. Jesus found them worshipping people instead of God, yet some didn't listen and continued worshipping people. Muhammad managed to stop that

[Anonymous No.16886833]

>>16886827
laws to govern by, according to the political ideology that is islam:

about daily life:
>you can lie to people
- https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Allah_the_Best_Deceiver
>you can break your promises
- quran 8:51
>you have to wipe your ass with 3 rocks
- sahih muslim 2:505
- sunan abu dawud 1:7
>dogs are to be killed. every day you keep a pet dog you are committing a sin. angels cannot enter inside a house that has a dog in it
- https://answering-islam.org/Silas/dogs.htm
>amputate the hands of thiefs
- quran 5:38
>not allowed to go to mosque if you've eaten garlic
- bukhari 70:80
>you're not allowed to settle space
- https://www.cnet.com/news/fatwa-forbids-muslims-from-traveling-to-mars/

[Anonymous No.16886835]

>>16886820
>but they're not an attempt to force Christianity on the east
They're an attempt to force Western values and ideology on those regions. And like it or not those values and ideologyes are, as you said yourself, intricately linked to Christianity.

[Anonymous No.16886836]

>>16886802
Mariam is sadly also worshipped by Christian pagans, you can find it in the fact that they pray dearly to her and other supposed saints.

>>16886822
You are taking the Qur'an out of context, liar.
https://quran.com/

I challenge anyone to find these quotes with context and open their eyes In Sha Allah.

[Anonymous No.16886837]

Because it's a zionist conspiracy to sow anti muslim sentiment in western countries

[Anonymous No.16886838]

>>16886833
laws to govern by, according to the political ideology that is islam:

relating to food:
>not allowed to eat pork (tho rabbit and camel are allowed for some unknown reason)
- quran 5:3
>not allowed to drink alcohol (tho smoking is fine for some unknown reason)
- quran 2:219
- quran 5:90
>any living being you eat has to be bled to death
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXmB9zsAQ_E
>water is always pure, no matter how much trash is in it
- https://sunnah.com/nasai/2

[Anonymous No.16886845]

>>16886838
laws to govern by, according to the political ideology that is islam:

relating to war:
>terrorize, as allah is a terrorist
- quran 8:12
>fight everyone until they proclaim that allah is god
- bukhari 8:44
>make war on all non-muslims
- quran 2:190
- quran 2:216
- quran 3:118-119
- quran 3:156
- quran 4:103
- quran 5:51
- quran 8:36
- quran 9:27
- quran 9:37
- quran 9:121
- quran 9:12
>kill those who pretend to be muslim
- quran 9:73-74
>do not take non-muslims as your protectors / friends / allies
- quran 4:89
- quran 5:51
- quran 9:23
- quran 3:118
>kill little boys when you are afraid they will leave islam
- quran 18:74-80
>kill anyone who leaves islam
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
>wage jihad against mickey mouse
- https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/saudiarabia/2963744/Mickey-Mouse-must-die-says-Saudi-Arabian-cleric.html
>you should put all non-muslims in chains
bukhari 65:79
>blowing yourself up is best thing in life
- bukhari 52:54

[Anonymous No.16886855]

>>16886613

[Anonymous No.16886857]

>>16886845
news and data:

>life under ISIS leads 'muslims' to christianity
- https://web.archive.org/web/20200215205252/https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/life-under-isis-led-these-muslims-christ-n963281

>further info here
- https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
- https://www.youtube.com/user/Acts17Apologetics/videos
- https://www.youtube.com/user/PfanderFilms/videos
- https://www.youtube.com/c/MessageOfLove/videos
- https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCx76ixH7qXAUTusATvICXpg/videos
- https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7wffWCb-k1F7oEyGMR8TTg/videos
- https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5zGnPFoN5LjAsxU8ESiBMw/videos
- https://pastebin.com/GunN6R39
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

[Anonymous No.16886860]

>>16886838
>>16886845
>>16886833
Humongous faggot.

>>16886836

[Anonymous No.16886866]

>>16886824
And why shouldn't we be devoted to saving sinners from your revolting cult?

[Anonymous No.16886868]

>>16886866
i don't engage with hylics

[Anonymous No.16886873]

>>16886868
>"hylics"
opinion dismissed

[Anonymous No.16886876]

>>16886565
>Hitchens and Dawkins said it was a vile religion, yet they couldn't explain why
...because it's a religion

[Anonymous No.16886880]

>>16886835
I would ask God that we win in the east, but I hope instead that some cheeky scientists invent fusion power so we wouldn't have to pay anyone for oil. Then you can live penniless in the hell of your own choosing.

[Anonymous No.16886888]

>>16886857
GALATIANS 1:6-9 (KJV):

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

The false prophet Muhammad preached a new gospel (glad tidings and good news in the Quran) that he received from an angel. The Bible clearly tells us that therefore Muhammad is ACCURSED.

[Anonymous No.16886889]

Sorry to detail the thread but I didn’t want to shit up the board with a thread for this.

Are there any Buddhist or Hindu apologetics? I’ve only seen Abrahamic apologists.

[Anonymous No.16886893]

>>16886855
That's not what I said at all. I never said proof relies on proof. I said you first need faith in order to see the proof. Do not equate those two.

[Anonymous No.16886929]

>>16886888
Funny, since that's exactly happened with Paul.

[Anonymous No.16886959]

>>16886889
They have nothing to apologize for.

[Anonymous No.16886961]

>>16886836
You are immune to argument. You requested critique on the quran, he gave it. Now you are referencing some bullshit page with interpretations. Thats not what you requested. Just realise you’re wrong and go away.

[Anonymous No.16886962]

>>16886888
this is LEGIT WHAT PAUL DID STUPID FUCK

[Anonymous No.16886963]

>>16886822
>>you can have sex with 9 year olds (they are considered adult women)
Based

[Anonymous No.16886972]

>>16886961
Once again, assfucker, I have posted the Qur'an so that people can see the in full context and they will easily discern that you
1) straight up twisted words and lied
2) took the quotes out of context

sit the fuck down.

[Anonymous No.16887003]

>>16886972
In what contexy is marrying a 9 year old ok?

You are delusional and immune to argument.

Now speaking of the qualities of the book i’d say it comes down to the material of the cover, what kind of paper is used and also what kind of binding is used. Most of the time i have seen these books are of high quality so i have no critique there, really. As for the contents, it seems to appeal to people who easily get angry and can become violent unless everyone around them says they are right. Fuck off.

[Anonymous No.16887010]

>>16887003
Kek, as predicted.
I posted the Qur'an so people can see the truth. Get some rest for now, you seem very tired of life.

[Anonymous No.16887021]

>>16886432

[Anonymous No.16887063]

>>16887021
t. christcuck

[Anonymous No.16887091]

>>16886835
>commit acts of terrorism in the West
>the West attacks
>"they're forcing their culture onto us!"

>have oil
>the West attacks
>"they're forcing their culture onto us!"

I fail to see the logic here. The motivations seem to me to be linked to national security and economic greed.

The West could care less about the morality of other countries, hence why they haven't boycotted China

[Anonymous No.16887127]

Organized religion, and social media; the two greatest mistakes perpetrated by humans..

[Anonymous No.16887131]

>>16886541
>since 2001
it's been going on a lot longer than that anon
basically every contact that "the west" has had with "the muslim world" has ended with blood being spilled. even early travel writers commented on it

[Anonymous No.16887136]

>>16886613
>You can't have faith without proof
oh anon, you are an idiot

[Anonymous No.16887177]

Narrated Aisha (ra): I used to play with dolls in the presence of the Prophet ﷺ, and my girlfriends also used to play with me. When Allah’s Apostle ﷺ used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet ﷺ would call them to join and play with me. [The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for Aisha (ra) at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty].

[Anonymous No.16887182]

>>16886537
They criticise it, because they believe in subject morality not in spite of it. A belief in subjective morality means that morality’s only purpose is utility, from which perspective they attack Islam.

[Anonymous No.16887295]

>>16886432
Moral relativity is absolute nonsense. Moral nihilism (the belief that there is no objective morals) is at least a defensible position, but what moral relativism actually preaches is that moral truth exists and it is somehow local rather than universal. It presupposes cultural biases are beyond criticism and form a basis for an objective morality which exists only in this location, culture, place and time. It's not hard to see why this is utterly baseless nonsense that is only pushed due to political correctness.

[Anonymous No.16887373]

>>16887021
I don't know how you managed to outcringe the Quran but your pic has managed to do that, faggot.

[Anonymous No.16887390]

>>16887091
>could care less
Do you fall over when you look down?

[Anonymous No.16887408]

>>16886432
You can safely ignore those kind, as they never have any metaphysical arguments to present, instead presenting only such arguments as would convince a western atheist.

[Anonymous No.16887432]

>>16886828
>If you know the meaning of the axiom, the mathematical one, you would know that every axiom is just assumed to be true beyond reasonable doubt. From there on you can build more complex axioms relying on those basic ones, but you can never do that unless you assume those axioms are true.
how is that an answer to his question?

[Anonymous No.16887447]

>>16886455
i also noticed an increase of genuine muslimposting in the last few months, I guess someone shared a link here on a muslim forum or something. not that I mind it, it's usually interesting and it's not enough to be annoying

[Anonymous No.16887458]

Muslims are unironically the dumbest people I've ever heard speak in my life. There's going to be an avalanche of apostasy soon now that more Muslims are moving to the west and have access to the internet and other sources of information besides their imam. They have a better chance at leaving Islam without getting killed for apostasy, the fact you'd get killed for leaving the cult should make you think, but Muslims don't have critical thinking skills.

[Anonymous No.16887507]

>>16887458
Why are Muslims in general uneducated you think? The West actively worked to destroy Islamic societies.

[Anonymous No.16887789]

>>16887507
I don't think that's because they were muslim, though. The Middle East has been fucked up because oil is the most important resource and control of it is vital for any nation claiming to be a superpower. Genuine question: has the US intervened much in the highly-muslim countries in Southeast Asia?

[Anonymous No.16887799]

>>16887789
It doesn't change a thing.
Read up on Said al Qutb.

[Anonymous No.16887820]

>>16886541
>just trust me bro
totally unlike the infallible bible

[Anonymous No.16887983]

>>16887432
>how is that an answer to his question?
You can't have proof of God and understand and read the book to find more proof, ie., build more complex axioms, wiithout accepting the most basic axiom that there is God. Even in math you have to start from somewhere, you can't infinitely keep going to prove every axiom.

[Anonymous No.16887995]

>>16886432
>Quite frankly, I believe the Qur'an is without fault
Lol

[Anonymous No.16888060]

>>16886836
You haven't explained how any of those are out of context

[Anonymous No.16888068]

>>16886432
Piss off, child-fucker.

[Anonymous No.16888072]

>>16887408
>doesn't even go outside to avoid the fitnah of the West
>is a zaahid, only eats bread, dates and milk
Holy kek

[Anonymous No.16888086]

*blocks your path*

[Anonymous No.16888096]

>>16887458
This hasn't happened in the UK, which even the very smart muslim are morally conflicted. Problem is that as they get older they what's wrong with modernity and don't want to lose a part of themselves (their culture, family, etc) and usually come back to it in later life. This is just like how American whites become more conservative with age.

[Anonymous No.16888099]

>>16888086
Look it's John, Luke and Paul

[Anonymous No.16888104]

>>16886889
Yes, I've read a good book on Hinduism by a Hindu monk called "The Spiritual Heritage of India". He

[Anonymous No.16888109]

>>16886828
Yes, by making them worship only one person (Muhammad).

[Anonymous No.16888122]

>>16888060
It's explained in every thread Islam slanderers try to prove their point in, and every time it gets debunked. So please, read the book for yourself if you are interested in the truth, before I (You) everyone ITT and humiliate them.

[Anonymous No.16888130]

>>16888086
Muslim apologists are just BTFOing themselves now, David Wood is just documenting it.

[Anonymous No.16888131]

>>16888109
Nice try, but nobody worships Muhammad. Even if some do that is explicitely against the doctring of Islam as opposed to Christianity which promots the worshipping of Jesus.

[Anonymous No.16888132]

I could easily attack the Qu'ran by pointing out how it asserts the truth of the bible while contradicting it. This inevitably leads to the Muslim making vague claims about the bible being corrupted and then trying to move on before anyone can ask questions about when or how it was corrupted.

[Anonymous No.16888143]

>>16888132
>then trying to move on before anyone can ask questions about when or how it was corrupted.
There's no way that happened, and the Bible hasn't changed over the past 2000 years, like at all, by millions of people....

[Anonymous No.16888152]

>>16888132
Who is Paul? What is Nicaea? What is the trinity?

[Anonymous No.16888154]

>>16888131
Isn't it true that insulting Muhammad infuriates Muslims more often than insulting Allah?

[Anonymous No.16888157]

>>16888130
Muslim apologists are full of lies and deception. Anthony just btfoed shabir recently.

[Anonymous No.16888165]

>>16888143
At the very least we have the same exact manuscripts which were available to Muhammad, so if it's corrupted now it was corrupted when Muhammad declared it to be true. There's no rational way for Muslims to win here.

>>16888152
We can ignore every bit of it and focus solely on the Torah and its contradictions with the Qu'ran.

[Anonymous No.16888168]

>>16887820
I mean, I don't think that's right. First off, Christians do not treat the Bible like Muslims treat the Quran. And secondly, the New Testament has a lot of emphasis on verifying claims by the fruits they produce (Jesus's truthfulness being testified to by His works which are the Father's, and also the Law and the Prophets; Paul and Peter defending their apostolicity with the efforts they have done for what they have preached without any gain for themselves) and of experiencing for oneself what Christ and the apostles also proclaimed (see especially Jesus's last discourse in John, and also the emphasis on union with Jesus in the epistles, maybe most clearly Ephesians and Colossians).
This focus on verifying the Christian doctrine for yourself through practice led to, on one hand, to the cult of the saints (people recognized as examples to follow and as proof of the change union with Christ does), and, on another hand, to submission to a spiritual father (the figure of the spiritual father being the bishop in the "secular" church and the geronda in the "monastic" church).

But even assuming you are right and the Bible demands that the reader trusts it on its own word... then that doesn't help the Islamic case. If "just trust me bro" isn't good enough, both the Bible and Quran are equally as useless. If "just trust me bro" is good enough, both the Bible and Quan are equally correct.

[Anonymous No.16888170]

>>16888154
I will skillfully avoid your trap and refer you to the second sentence of my post you're replying to.

[Anonymous No.16888186]

>>16888165
The Torah has been changed over time. The Qur'an is the final word.

[Anonymous No.16888189]

>>16888170
Is it then condemned by Islam to take a life in the name of the Prophet as you would in the name of Allah?
I hope I don't sound like I'm trying to "get you"; I want to understand Islam a little better. My ignorance on its doctrine has led me to feel rejection towards it, and I would like to change my mind if need be.

[Anonymous No.16888191]

>>16888157
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dENDTpu-ank

[Anonymous No.16888202]

>>16888189
>Is it then condemned by Islam to take a life in the name of the Prophet as you would in the name of Allah?
yes
>My ignorance on its doctrine has led me to feel rejection towards it
Don't feel bad for it as most western works, wether consciously or subconsciously are still steeped in the middle ages crusades logic.

[Anonymous No.16888226]

>>16888186
We have manuscripts of the Torah which predate Muhammad but even if this weren't the case, literally every single one of them is consistent on at least one small detail. The Pharoah's daughter adopted Moses. The Qu'ran on the other hand asserts that the Pharoah's wife is the one that adopted him. None of the Muslim world recognized the contradiction until the time of Al-Ghazali which is why no Muslim up to that point every suspected that the Torah was corrupted. It was only after this realization that Muslims assumed it must be corrupt, but this of course ignores all manuscript evidence and logic.

If the Torah is corrupt now it was corrupt when Muhammad or God declared it to be true in the Qu'ran. No matter which way you go on this, there is a clear falsehood in the Qu'ran.

[Anonymous No.16888230]

>>16888202
What is the general take among Muslims on the recent killings in France which victimized a teacher who used an image of Muhammad as an example in class, without intending to deride him? Would the average Muslim oppose the actions of the murderer?

[Anonymous No.16888273]

>>16888230
>What is the general take among Muslims on the recent killings in France which victimized a teacher who used an image of Muhammad as an example in class, without intending to deride him?
I can't answer that for every Muslim, much like you wouldn't expect me to ask you what is the stance of 2 billion or so Christians on a specific issue. However I have seen multiple Islamic organizations, in several countries, that I know of harshly condeming the actions of the murderer.
>Would the average Muslim oppose the actions of the murderer?
Does the average Christian oppose the actions of a murderer?

[Anonymous No.16888320]

>>16888273
>Does the average Christian oppose the actions of a murderer?
Depends on the murderer. You can be opposed from a humane perspective but approve from a religious one. As in, "it's a pity, but it had to be done. I wish he hadn't chosen that fate".
I haven't heard of terrorists acts in the name of Chrsitianity in forever; in the West people are motivated by personal vendettas or political beliefs rather than religion.
Anyway, as usual, there's a bit of a disconnect between the average believer and the religious authorities. I have no doubt in my mind that most Islamic religious authorities condemned the attack.It's the main body of the believers whose opinion carry the most weight, unfortunately. That's why I'm concerned about it. I hope you understand my fear, taking into account how much of a presence they are gaining in countries that were typically lacking in the followers of Allah.

[Anonymous No.16888354]

>>16886432


John 3: 16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

vs

Quran 2:15

15. It is God who ridicules them, and leaves them bewildered in their transgression.

Gee, I wonder which book was written by the devil, the accuser.

[Anonymous No.16888359]

>>16888226
>on at least one small detail.
>on at least one small detail.
>on at least one small detail.
>on at least one small detail.
>on at least one small detail.

And not everything.
The Qur'an is proven right by archeology time and time again though.

[Anonymous No.16888375]

>>16888320
>I haven't heard of terrorists acts in the name of Chrsitianity in forever; in the West people are motivated by personal vendettas or political beliefs rather than religion.
lm,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christchurch_mosque_shootings
The West is Christian in the core, and you don't just do away with 2000 years of Christian tradition. People may not identifity themselves as Christians, but Christians values and norms are enmeshed in society, the government and the people whether they are aware of it or not. You may say these attacts aren't directly motivated by Christianity and shift the blame to the politics or personal beliefs, but killing 50 people is in no way a small thing. That can easily be glanced over since they aren't your group, but the killing of one teacher inspires fear inside of you?

[Anonymous No.16888389]

>>16888359
This is why people would rather just make fun of your prophet. You people are idiots.

[Anonymous No.16888393]

>>16888375

> The West is Christian in the core

You know nothing. What an ignorant statement.

The West was only Christian when it conquered the world. It quickly abandoned Christianity soon after.

[Anonymous No.16888401]

>>16888354
A very sour truth is that Christians will be judged by the person they worship (on the day of reckoning).

[Anonymous No.16888415]

>>16888375
I was thinking of that guy when I mentioned "political motivation". I suppose that you could argue that Muslim attacks are also political in nature, as Islam is so entrenched in the civil government as well as in the spiritual one.
The killing of those 50 people was condemned by the public and the goverment, and the only people who cheered on it are those who rather than following Christian values use Christianity as a tool of cohesion for their political views, regardless of how contradictory it is.

[Anonymous No.16888419]

>>16888401

You believe lies, just like your father the devil.

I've met the devil in lerson, the god you worship. He stinks of piss and he's obsessed with his death. When I asked him what his religion was, he said he was Catholic.

Musliks BTFO forever. Even your own god rejects you.

Jesus loves you.

[Anonymous No.16888420]

>>16888354
The Quran teaches Allah is a terrorist

Quran 8:12; "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve So strike above the necks and strike off every fingertip of theirs”

[Anonymous No.16888432]

>>16888168
>christians dont treat the bible like muslims treat the quran
oh no anon dont you no true scotsman this

[Anonymous No.16888440]

>>16888420

The God of the Bible takes vengeance into his own hands. He's not some weak limp wristed faggot who needs you to do his work.

Your god is a faggot who stinks of piss.

[Anonymous No.16888453]

>>16888415
>The killing of those 50 people was condemned by the public and the goverment, and the only people who cheered on it are those who rather than following Christian values use Christianity as a tool of cohesion for their political views, regardless of how contradictory it is.
I suppose that answers your questions?

[Anonymous No.16888465]

>>16888440
you must be larping now ever heard of the battle between the israelites and the amalekites? fucking idiot lol

[Anonymous No.16888467]

>>16888440
Except for all of those times in the Bible that vengence was executed on God's behalf by mortal agents.

[Anonymous No.16888482]

>>16888465

Ever read about Sodom and Gomorrah? Or did your fake prophet leave it out?

Face it muslims, you worship a weak pussy god not the real one.

[Anonymous No.16888488]

>>16888467

Quote chapter and verse. I'll wait.

[Anonymous No.16888528]

>>16888420
You are once again misquoting and omitting context christfag.

Before
˹Remember˺ when He caused drowsiness to overcome you, giving you serenity.1 And He sent down rain from the sky to purify you, free you from Satan’s whispers, strengthen your hearts, and make ˹your˺ steps firm.
After
This is because they defied Allah and His Messenger. And whoever defies Allah and His Messenger, then ˹know that˺ Allah is surely severe in punishment.

[Anonymous No.16888532]

Remember that time Mohammad died and his last words were he wasn't sure if he was going to hell or not?

He's in hell.

Romans 10:3-4

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.


Islam has no answer to the question of sin. Islam can't deal with sin.

You fell for a meme religion.

[Anonymous No.16888546]

>>16888532
>Islam has no answer to the question of sin. Islam can't deal with sin.
Most ignorant words have never before been spoken

[Anonymous No.16888554]

>>16888532
You are a liar changing goalposts as seen in this very discussion, fuck off and suck some dick since that's what you love.

[Anonymous No.16888558]

>>16888546

You have rejected the Grace of Jesus Christ and you will burn in hell.

[Anonymous No.16888566]

>>16888554

Where? You have me confused with someone else.

[Anonymous No.16888567]

>>16888558
>Jesus
I fear no man only Allah

[Anonymous No.16888579]

>>16888567

I've met you god, and he was a pussy faggot who stank of his own piss.

I fear God the father of Jesus christ.

[Anonymous No.16888594]

>>16888579
My master is the lord of all worlds, who has dominion of everything and everyone.

[Anonymous No.16888612]

>>16888594

Your master is a little bitch who disobeyed the true God, and was cast down to earth. Your god has another thousand years or so to live before God the father executes him.

I've met your god. He fears my God.

[Anonymous No.16888613]

>>16888086
David Wood sucks balls lol. Sam Harris tier.

[Anonymous No.16888615]

>>16888612
Allah! there is no Allah but He - the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) Before or After or Behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. For He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).

[Anonymous No.16888616]

>>16888579
And ˹on Judgment Day˺ Allah will say, “O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you ever ask the people to worship you and your mother as gods besides Allah?” He will answer, “Glory be to You! How could I ever say what I had no right to say? If I had said such a thing, you would have certainly known it. You know what is ˹hidden˺ within me, but I do not know what is within You. Indeed, You ˹alone˺ are the Knower of all unseen.

[Anonymous No.16888622]

>>16888616

Joshua 24:15

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

[Anonymous No.16888628]

>>16888612
your God was a man who suckled his mother.

[Anonymous No.16888648]

>>16888628


Titus 1:15-16

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

[Anonymous No.16888742]

>>16887136
why are you discussing with muslim people on the internet?
they are somehow worse than the bible belt evangelical that think the earth is 6000 years and dinossaurs and people lived together.
AND before the guy thinks I'm saying muslim thinks that, no, I'm not saying it, i'm saying a particular (modern) cult of christianism thinks that.

The muslims that can somewhat defend their position are not on the internet.
It seems to me this phenomen of educated people engaging in discussions (specially) on the internet is mostly bounded to what is considered "the west".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPO1Pnp-z_Q

Check this "scholar"

[Anonymous No.16888771]

>>16888742
David Wood is a faggot

[Anonymous No.16888789]

>>16888432
What do you mean?
Christians do not believe that the Bible came upon Jesus during His lifetime or something. The Bible is a collection of texts, some attributed to prophets or apostles, some simply anonymous.
Unlike Jews who believe the Masoretic perfectly reconstitues the words of God through Moses and unlike Muslims who believe the Quran is also the verbatim word of God, Christians are decidedly not interested in a "perfect original" that would then be mystically preserved. You can look at how the canon, or rather the canons, developed. You can look at how there is simply no big doctrinal dispute today among Christians about which manuscripts are the "only true ones" (at best, you have the dispute of whether there must be a single universal canon or not, and if so, whether it's the Catholic one or the Protestant one).

Literally the only Christians who hold a doctrine akin to that of the Muslims toward the Quran are the KJV-onlyists, who are a hilariously tiny fraction of all Christians. I'm not sure you understand what "no true scotsman" means.

[Anonymous No.16888887]

>>16888628
He also took a shit. That’s part of being a human being, something Allah can’t do apparently.

[Anonymous No.16888910]

>>16888789
Most Protestants aside from the liberal sects are definitely Islamic in how they approach the Bible even if it is less extreme. Don’t try to group classical Christianity with protestants.

[Anonymous No.16889089]

>>16888910
so you mean muslim mentality is the same as evangelicals?
One more reason to discredit it.
It doesn't seem to be an educated people...

[Anonymous No.16889122]

islam is right about everything and there is nothing (you) can do to change my mind
don't (you) me

[Anonymous No.16889194]

Iqbal said to Malak this which he heard from Dawood: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) did say “iIt was Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ ) who made Adam in his image and it is I who resemble him most from among our people. And from Adam He did create Eve and her skin was black and glistened in the sunlight and this pleased Adam”. And The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) took one of his slave girls who was from the people of the south and he said “It is this one who is the purest female, despite her position she is my most beloved possession”.

[Anonymous No.16889213]

>>16888910
Are they?
In any case, the Christianities that were contemporary to the rise of Islam were the imperial Byzantine church (call it Catholic or Eastern Orthodox depending on your perspective), the West Syriac "Monophysite" church and the East Syriac "Nestorian" church. None of them held the "Islamic" view on scripture, and, to repeat myself, none of them expected a Prophet or Paraclete that didn't already come in the 1st century. Hence why I said that the Quran's defense for itself amounts to "just trust me bro".

[Anonymous No.16889252]

>>16886541
This. Islamic apologists are spot-on in pointing out that Christian criticism and polemics are quite often hypocritical, but I have yet to see any convincing evidence from a secular point of view that indicates Islam is any more authentic of a revelation than Judaism or Christianity.

[Anonymous No.16889281]

>>16886432
Hi there Mohammad.

[Anonymous No.16889288]

>>16886432
The general rule for religions is that theirs is the truth and the other ones are false. I call it the "blind fighting the blind truth" Or the "awww, baby threw up his baby food again truth".

[Anonymous No.16889387]

>>16888887
Allah does what He pleases and what befits His Godhead. Becoming a shitting crying baby so He could get BTFO by roman soldiers and left to die in agony when He grows up does not befit Allah.

[Anonymous No.16889394]

>>16886455
Not enough people reporting this for off topic and trolling.

[Anonymous No.16889404]

This is now a thread about the third crusade.

[Anonymous No.16889527]

>>16889213
Muslims are retarded but you are even more retarded for thinking that your generalizations are going to get you out of that hole. Truly brainlet tier posts.

[Anonymous No.16889651]

>>16888359
So provide us some of that archaeology. The facts of the texts are that the Torah predates the Quran. We have the Qumran manuscripts dating from around 150 BC to 70 AD, long, long before Muhammad

[Anonymous No.16889687]

>>16888122
And yet nothing of the sort happens in this thread. If all that anon's points have been refuted surely you can provide the refutations.

[Anonymous No.16889811]

>>16889687
>spam 10 posts with thousands of random quotes
>why you am no refute it
geee

[Anonymous No.16889834]

>>16889811
>>16889687
itt: christfags seething that their religion is cucked

[Anonymous No.16890395]

>>16889811
Exactly. It’s boring and off topic

[Anonymous No.16890732]

>>16886432
I'd say not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.