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16932116 No.16932116 [Reply] [Original]

Pardon me, I wonder if you could tell me what justice consists of.

>> No.16932133

>>16932116
I read the Republic when I was 12, and I only remember some parts of it. I recently just finished all of his late but I can't remember, did Plato ever find the definition of Justice in the Republic, or is equatable to the incompleteness of Heidegger's being and time?

>> No.16932153
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16932153

>>16932116
IT IS WHAT IS ADVANTAGEOUS TO THE STRONGEST

>> No.16932159

>>16932116
Whatever benefits a historically oppressed interest group.

>> No.16932160

>>16932153
Has he ever been refuted?

>> No.16932175

Why did Plato write fanfic about his friends and relatives?

>> No.16932177

>>16932175
Because Sonic hadn't been invented yet

>> No.16932182

>>16932160
Yes, multiple times in that book.

>> No.16932183

>>16932153
>>16932159
Why didn't we have the pro-minority opposite to Thrasymachus???? Would have unironically made a very funny dialectic, to pit two of Socrates enemies against each other. But of course then it would lower Plato to memetic crassness.

>> No.16932184

Source?

>> No.16932189

>>16932116
Existence-preservation in ethics.

>> No.16932190

>>16932116
Justice is proportional revenge

>> No.16932194

>>16932116
It’s ice without anything else

>> No.16932196

>>16932116
Justice does not exist

>> No.16932203

>>16932182
Not even Socrates believes Socrates' conception of justice.

>> No.16932204

>>16932133
I haven't read all of his dialogues yet but in Euthyphro Plato is just introducing us to the Socratic method. In Republic he makes the claim that justice of the individual is implied off of justice of the Republic (or culture of whatever sort).

>> No.16932236

>>16932196
This. Once you realize that moral relativism is correct, it follows that justice is only the imposition of the ruling class’s values. If you read any contemporary political philosophy, this is the impression you get. “Preventing abortion/immigration is unjust”

Take “human rights”. The only reasons freedom of expression/religion is considered a right is because the ruling West values it (or did so at the time the code was created). Any other society would have deemed it absurd that heathens be allowed to express their opinions. It’s just a tool for the ruling elite to give legitimacy to their own opinions, “what, you oppose human rights?!?!? You disagree with (our) justice?!?!?”

>> No.16932248

>>16932236
Human rights in the west is meant to be Lockean and based on nature and not the will of the people. You'd have to contradict those rights aren't based in nature and, perhaps, what could be based in nature.

>> No.16932256

>>16932236
(cont.)
There’s a quote by some Nazi that says something like “when I hear of grievances I reach for my gun”. This is my attitude towards justice. When someone starts speaking of what is just, they’re only convincing themselves that they’re in the right for putting me on the other side of the barrel.

>> No.16932265

>>16932248
Sure, but in effect, they’re whatever the West wants them to be. When some country is in the crosshairs, they’re suddenly guilt of “human rights abuses” and so we can invade them. Oh, but boycotting the chinese because of what they do? No one cares.
And other such shenanigans.

>> No.16932278

>>16932204
I see, but I also find it interesting that he explicitly shows in the Gorgias that Justice is obviously not just a utilitarian distribution to the largest amounts of individuals, for many reasons, but one most striking being that there is one Judge for the West, and another for the East(, and a third to check both after their judgements).

>> No.16932291

>>16932265
I agree I think the formalization in Locke, which was low already, has been left by the way-side.

>>16932278
I would love to see a meme/reading chart that really captures the metaphysics of him overall and in each dialogue.

>> No.16932307

>>16932133
He goes on about it but carries the argument to its end and shows that what is left is tyranny and genocide of a generation and the necessity to use propaganda and destroy family units.
Kind of leaves you with, is justice worth it?

>> No.16932373

>>16932133
Socrates discovers Justice to be "minding one's own business and not being a busybody", which is how it manifests in the city-in-speech; in the soul of the individual, it's "minding one's own business well".

>> No.16932380

>>16932183
I imagine Plato would've thought that stance was much closer to Thrasymachus than they'd ever admit.

>> No.16932384

>>16932116
release of resentful feelings

>> No.16932394

>>16932307
>tyranny
EXCUSE ME, I meant "Kingship".

>> No.16932426

>>16932291
>I would love to see a meme/reading chart that really captures the metaphysics of him overall and in each dialogue.
That would actually be well needed, considering there are so many poor and ultimately undescriptive "run-downs" or short theses on each dialogue in an attempt to explain them. I believe I could do it, but I need to think about them some more, fit Plato together a bit more systematically in my head. I've been considering making a few charts, and when I do, I'll make a proper Plato one too.

What about you anon, do you think you'd able?

>> No.16932440

>>16932380
That's quite brilliant anon, a very helpful statement! Both are asserting Justice to be the relative will of a certain people. I think Plato even goes over something like that in the first book of the Republic, like "if the weaker can become stronger then do they not become the stronger?" Or something like that right?

>> No.16932450

>>16932426
I'd have to read the rest of the dialogues, I was wanting to do it for the Bible but I'm stuck in math for a month or so and I might do science after

>> No.16932456

>>16932426
>>16932450
Plus I'm shit at making memes

>> No.16932476
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16932476

>>16932153
Based

>> No.16932495

>>16932450
Doing Plato wouldn't be so difficult if you've read him, but the Bible seems like naturally a very academic project. Just considering how much bigger it is, but then also just by its nature being far easier to organise and just give a "run-down" type meme of.

>>16932456
Kek, well, we can all learn.

Good luck with your math and science though.

>> No.16932512

>>16932116
Justice is whatever society decides is a crime and the right punishment for it.
It doesn't really exist.

>> No.16932519

>>16932116
In A Theory of Justice, John Rawls presents a thought experiment which he calls the Original Position in which a committee of individuals are tasked with formulating a social contract behind a veil of ignorance. They are stricken with a bout of amnesia and cannot recall their own identities, interests, class, or other socially differentiating traits. Lacking in all sources of possible bias, the contract that committee agrees upon Rawls calls just.

(For this reason so called social justice movements are radically unjust: they view everything from the perspective of supposedly oppressed groups, and push for various correctives in society to accomodate them for perceived wrongs. But you can never have true justice without impartiality. True justice is ruthlessly impartial and treats of no difference.)

>> No.16932521

>>16932116
Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.
Philosophyfags have to overcomplicate everything.

>> No.16932524
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16932524

>>16932153
was thrasymachus the original egoist?

>> No.16932525

Does anyone actually read philosophy of law? I know its a thing but i cant think of any philosophers apart from maybe John Rawls.

>> No.16932535

>>16932521
That's why you do a good act is it? Or any act at all, only in repayment? I guess you're not much of a Christian.

>> No.16932541

>>16932525
Carl Schmitt and Agamben maybe? (Much less familiar with the latter.)

>> No.16932560
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16932560

>>16932133
But, still, start with the Geeks. amirite? Read shit you won't remember.

>> No.16932567

>>16932560
I read it when I was 12 and am going to reread it soon, give me a break. I can remember fine any of Plato's other works that I read when I was older.

>> No.16932569

>>16932116
With a $12,000,000,000 grant I could build the particle accelerator necessary to demonstrate that justice consists of fundamental particles I have termed "Justaus".

>> No.16932616

>>16932204
No he was using the republic as a metaphor.

>> No.16932625

>>16932616
For what? A culture or?

>> No.16932646

>>16932116
Justice is whatever is beneficial to me personally

>> No.16932661

An empty platitude in a meaningless universe.>>16932116

>> No.16932670

>>16932625
Anon might be either referring to Neoplatonist allegorical readings or readings of the Republic as either satire or ironical.

I mean, that or they're shitposting.

>> No.16932695

>>16932625
>>16932670
It’s a metaphor for yourself. I don’t mean it as satire or ironic, he’s telling you how to manage your internal spirit/ psychology whatever you want to call it. I mean he outright says it right at the start of when he starts describing the republic, but you really should’ve realized this when he was talking about discipline at the very least.

>> No.16932817

>>16932695
It's tied w his metaphysics in the soul, dialogue, aesthetics etc so you can speak of them analogistically but he went to Sardegna twice to try to apply it and he went further in Laws. I'd say it was a mistaken conclusion from his metaphysics but I think it takes more claims to argue he was, as the author, not meaning politics or a state whatsoever.

>> No.16932828

>>16932495
It would be lovely for me to do Plato first as practice. I have book ideas I want to write. If I can ever afford a ghostwriter I'd start knocking those out.

>> No.16932839
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16932839

>>16932133
His conception of Justice is when all the other virtues—Temperance, Wisdom, Courage—are in the correct balance/alignment. Which is reflected in the three classes of the republic, which all do what they are most suited for. The justice in the city is used to explore the justice of the individual, which should have the virtues in comparable alignment (as depicted in the tripartite division of the soul in Phaedrus). That isn't to say that the republic is only a metaphor, but that the Justice in both are the same because they are both reflections of same form.

>> No.16932874

>>16932695
>>16932817
I think I agree that the Republic is, when all is said or done, about how one orders one's own soul "justly", but I think it is also very seriously an answer to the kind of questions about political life Glaucon and Adeimantus raise: what goods does the Just Man receive, and is the Just man truly happy?

The way in which the city is supposed to be an image of the soul writ-large is important to keep in mind, since it gets left behind so often in interpretations, but there are certainly parts of of the dialogue dedicated to the city that don't square up with a focus on the soul; it's very hard to see how the Noble Lie or the communism of women and children applies to the soul, for example.

>> No.16933944

>>16932116
Uh... justice is virtue is knowledge is recollection?

>> No.16934346

>>16932116
ME BALLS DEEP IN YOUR MOTHER'S ASS!
FUCK OFF SOCRATES!

>> No.16934630
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16934630

>>16932116
Justice is unironically where everyone gets what they fucking deserve

>> No.16934710

>>16932133
i read it and they reminded me of the d&d nerds who would spend their lunchtime making autistically detailed fantasy worlds and societies

>> No.16935140

>>16932373
This sounds like a kike. This can't be right.

>> No.16936078

>>16935140
It’s a way over simplification. His message is more like a proto version of the golden rule found in the New Testament of “loving thy neighbor”.

>> No.16936533

>>16934630
but what does everyone fucking deserve?

>> No.16936640
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16936640

>be me
>started reading Plato, accompanied by a good scholar, from Sophist
>since then I have mostly read other late dialogues
>Never read Republic so far
>tfw it's the only dialogue people want to talk about
>tfw no one cares about Timaeus, Philebus, Statesman, Laws, etc
FINE, I'll read the fucking thing

>> No.16936648

>>16932519
I have been told that Rawls is actually fine with reparative policies, like affirmative action, gender quotas, and so on. Did that person lie to me?

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