Why did he become a muslim?

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Anonymous Tue Dec 8 03:59:46 2020 No.16975195 [Reply] [Original]

Why did he become a muslim?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 04:17:31 2020 No.16975251 Because he wanted to be initiated into a mystical tradition, but everything besides sufism requires you to be a meek volcel monk cuck. With sufism he could have a wife and family while still practicing muslim voodoo shit.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 04:18:49 2020 No.16975257 >>16975251 No such thing as incel or volcel monks in Islam.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 04:19:25 2020 No.16975259 idk why don't you ask him

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 04:28:44 2020 No.16975290 >>16975251 Orthodox priests are allowed (and encouraged) to marry and have kids. A priest I knew had 12 kids

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 04:33:17 2020 No.16975302 he wanted the 40 virgins

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 04:36:39 2020 No.16975312 >>16975195 That's what zero pussy does to a mf

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 04:51:09 2020 No.16975353 Wasn't it because he took a holiday to Egypt and just found that he liked islam more than Hindusim?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 04:55:54 2020 No.16975373 >>16975251 Only Cucktholicism doesn't allow priests and monks to marry.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 04:56:30 2020 No.16975374 >>16975290 Correct, but I dont think those at monasteries, at least the hard-core ones like at Mt. Athos

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 04:57:32 2020 No.16975377 >>16975374 *I dont think those at monasteries are allowed

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 05:01:18 2020 No.16975386

>>16975353
He (pbuh) thought that Hinduism wasn't compatible with the Western way of life, so discouraged any Westerners to convert. In the end he became a Sufi, which is a less orthodox and more mystical school of Islam. Some Sunnis even consider Sufism to be a heresy.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 06:54:25 2020 No.16975818 >>16975195 collateral brain damage

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 07:36:16 2020 No.16975955 >>16975386 >(pbuh) He wasn't a Prophet.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 07:38:19 2020 No.16975967 >>16975955 >He wasn't a Prophet. You know that's hersey right?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 07:41:59 2020 No.16975984 >>16975195 Why do people like this guy? Atleast for Evola I can understand /pol/tards like him.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 07:43:31 2020 No.16975995

afaik the big reason is that Islam retains "sanad", that is to say a living connection from teacher to student all the way back to Djibril alayhi salam. Afaik guenon believed very strongly that "initiation" hinges upon this living connection, and can not be achieved through reading. In Islam the connection is very, very much protected and maintained. Many people study under scholars who are the great-grand-scholar-children of Muhammad (pbuh)

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 07:49:24 2020 No.16976015 >>16975967 Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was the final Prophet for deceased Muslims, we say (may Allah have mercy on him) for living Muslims, we say (may Allah preserve him)

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 07:52:50 2020 No.16976025 >>16976015 He listened to demons.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 09:08:27 2020 No.16976345 >>16975995 >"initiation" hinges upon this living connection What led him to this conclusion? It sounds stupid.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 09:09:58 2020 No.16976353 >>16976345 That's what you think because you know nothing of authentic spirituality. The lower, as a rule, can not achieve the higher - hence the need for a living connection to the higher; the founder of a tradition bestows his light to his followers.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 09:15:11 2020 No.16976374 >>16976353 Yeah, that's bullshit.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 09:17:28 2020 No.16976384 >>16976374 Cope

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 09:18:05 2020 No.16976389 >>16976384 >noooo you can't learn anything on your own, you have to rely on a (((guru))) if you want to reach sacred knowledge! Literal spiritual cuckoldry. Seethe

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 09:20:05 2020 No.16976397 >>16976389 Who do you rely on, anon? Jesus? Mohammed? You do know that's the same principle in action, right?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 09:21:48 2020 No.16976403 >>16976397 Myself. True initiation is self-initiation. >the same principle in action You mentioned a living connection, stop backpedaling.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 09:23:12 2020 No.16976410 >>16976403 The issue with mainstream religion is that the connection has typically long since decayed, but it was a living connection once. I wish you luck with your self-initiation - that's what I'm trying too - just know that the odds aren't good.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 09:26:32 2020 No.16976424 >>16976410 >the odds aren't good. Just like your odds of finding a legitimate guru are extremely slim. Truth is earned. Good luck to you too.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 09:27:56 2020 No.16976430

>>16976424
>Just like your odds of finding a legitimate guru are extremely slim. Truth is earned.
Well, it is the Kali Yuga after all. That's why I've more or less given up on regular initiation, though I might still keep looking just in case I can find someone. We'll see.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 09:58:01 2020 No.16976605 Is anyone else revolted by how feminine he looks? He's like a proto-basedboy

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:00:35 2020 No.16976621 >>16976605 its all in your head, anon

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:05:20 2020 No.16976642

>>16976345
Why don't you read his work on initiation and find out? You don't think Guenon would've just self-initiated himself if he thought he could?
>Literal spiritual cuckoldry. Seethe
From the way you type it's easy for anyone to see you are not mature enough for a genuine spiritual life. Your self-initiation will be disastrous. You're opening yourself up to forces beyond your understanding. How old are you?

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:05:23 2020 No.16976644

>freemason
>catholic
>sufi
>sunni
>gnostic
>advaita vedanta
the man was a sperg who went around collecting TRAD points. if he'd lived long enough eventually he'd be calling himself a rabbi and talking about how odin was actually a kami because quetzalcoatl was actually julius caesar.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:06:21 2020 No.16976650 >>16976642 Your condescension is appreciated, but I'm fine.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:07:06 2020 No.16976653 >>16976644 You've clearly only read his wiki page. Stop embarrassing yourself.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:07:32 2020 No.16976656

>>16975251
>With sufism he could have a wife and family while still practicing muslim voodoo shit.
There are multiple non-dual or quasi non-dual schools of Hinduism which Guenon could have been initiated into which would have allowed him to continue having a family, a house and wealth. But he chose Islam instead, probably because he believed that it was the hand of providence which made him come into contact with Ivan Agueli and be initiated into Sufi doctrine by him in the 1910’s

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:08:42 2020 No.16976658 >>16976650 I don't find that particularly convincing but good luck nonetheless.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:10:35 2020 No.16976668

>>16976642
>You don't think Guenon would've just self-initiated himself if he thought he could?
Maybe it was a mistake on his part.
Maybe spirituality isn't a single path that you have to conform to, but adapts to the individual's experiences and sensibilities.
Your post reeks of self-righteous conceit, you're not as detached and wise as you think you are.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:12:58 2020 No.16976683 >>16976653 Start with Reign of Quantity.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:13:04 2020 No.16976684 >>16975195 Because it's the only true religion.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:15:35 2020 No.16976693

>>16976668
Why not read what Guenon actually thought about initiation and why he thought it was so important?
>Maybe spirituality isn't a single path that you have to conform to
What do you mean by 'spirituality'? That's incredibly vague. Scientologists, cult members and teenage girls into Wicca would agree with you on that point.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:16:53 2020 No.16976695 >>16976693 As would Guenon, and all Traditionalists, yes.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:17:22 2020 No.16976696 >>16976605 there is nothing more feminine than caring for appearances. the whole reification of masculinity is parodic. you're a woman.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:17:57 2020 No.16976701

>>16976658
>he thinks he can make assumptions on the "spiritual advancement" of a person because they shitposted in answer to another shitpost on an imageboard for shitposters
Of course you're not convinced, you're like the little kids obsessed with being seen as mature and adult.
But please, do go on with the fear-mongering.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:19:12 2020 No.16976706 >>16976695 Not without qualifiers. Guenon was in favour of using particular words, like spiritual or spirit, very particularly to avoid this phenomenon of every Tom Dick and Harry thinking they were a sage because they did acid once.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:21:12 2020 No.16976718

>>16976701
>noooo you can't learn anything on your own, you have to rely on a (((guru))) if you want to reach sacred knowledge!
>Literal spiritual cuckoldry. Seethe
These look like the words of someone ready to initiate themselves into the mysteries to you?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:21:53 2020 No.16976726 >>16976015 I accidentally thought you wrote down he was. Sorry my mistake

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:23:19 2020 No.16976731 >>16976718 >literally answering a meme with a meme >"umm sorry you can't talk like this if you want to be spiritual" Your posturing is fucking laughable. As I said, you're not anywhere near as wise as you figure yourself to be.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:25:03 2020 No.16976745 >>16976731 You're in for a rude awakening.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:25:17 2020 No.16976749 >>16976642 >forces beyond your understanding Like what?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:28:00 2020 No.16976772 >>16976718 It's 4chan, I also write like that when the context is fitting. What's wrong with that?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:28:03 2020 No.16976773 >>16976745 How about you switch from all this vacuous cryptic bullshit to actually saying what you think, instead of acting like a woman with the pathetic passive-agressive retorts? Or are you just a retarded pseud?

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:30:34 2020 No.16976782

>>16976749
Like nothing. He has no clue what the fuck he's talking about and thinks life is a video game where if you don't follow the right "initiation" you get the bad ending. It's fear-mongering and conceit, nothing more.
Self-initiation is a process of personal discovery, if you don't make your own path and figure out how to link together pieces of ancient knowledge by yourself, you're missing the point. To think you're going to run into things that are too "high level" for you, or anything of the sort, is absolutely moronic.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:36:07 2020 No.16976809

>>16976693
>why he thought it was so important?
And what makes this an absolute truth exactly? Guenon isn't any more special than the hundreds of other people who've written on esotericism before and after him, and whose opinions diverged from his. Some of the traditions Guenon was interested in, like Gnosticism, specifically favored the process of initiation without a master. Others like Hinduism generally recommend to follow the teachings of a guru. There is no single path yet all of them converge, this is the point of perennialism.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:37:59 2020 No.16976814 >>16975984 You’d have to actually read either of them, which you clearly haven’t done, to understand.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:38:10 2020 No.16976815 >>16976809 Guenon virtually founded the Traditionalist school, perhaps this might not mean much to you but it's very telling for many others.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:38:47 2020 No.16976819 >>16976815 You're not addressing my point

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:40:37 2020 No.16976825

>>16975995
Where can I learn more about this?

My biggest complaint with Guenon (and Evola by proxy) is that neither of them really seemed to adequately engage with the question of whether or not these things were present in their own tradition (Catholicism or Orthodoxy, but Orthodoxy especially). They were both colored by a repulsion for the politics of their time and and they just seemed wholly unwilling to study anything overtly Western beyond those politics and history (in Evola’s case) and I think that’s really unfortunate for their readers.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:45:29 2020 No.16976849

>>16976819
The point is that a man talented enough to build the foundation of Traditionalism and dedicated enough to pursue initiation into Sufism should be considered more than qualified to be worth listening to. Every major figure of upright spirituality at the time considered Guenon a friend and an ally.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:49:31 2020 No.16976873

>>16976825
Both Guenon and Evola have commented on this precise issue - in this case they disagreed. Guenon thought that the Catholic Church could serve as the foundation to rebuild Western spirituality and considered the apostolic succession a form of initiation, though "inactive" and "passive" or in other words purely formal, without real power, but nevertheless real and with the potential to revive at any time. Evola on the other hand thought that the apostolic succession was a form of initiation that had degenerated into ritualism and possessed no value at all. Orthodoxy is less commented on because of the scarcity of information at the time and the greater interest directed in Eastern spirituality, but there is some work done on it. Evola thought it had initiatic elements, but considered those too muddled with other undesirable Christian elements, so he preferred to support fully fledged initiatic traditions instead.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:49:41 2020 No.16976874

>>16976849
That's your point, you're still not addressing mine, which is the fact that Guenon found initiation necessary for the path he took does not imply it is an absolute requirement to fulfill. To claim the opposite is to limit yourself needlessly. That's your business, but you don't need to proselytize.
The idea that something bad will happen to you without a teacher, or even that it is impossible to work towards the truth without the guidance of anything else than your own intuition, is a dangerous idea to spread around, and an unproductive one since most people don't have access to a teacher anyway.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:54:49 2020 No.16976919 >>16975386 Does heresy even matter when you are approaching religion through perennialism?

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:55:07 2020 No.16976922

>>16976874
>That's your point, you're still not addressing mine, which is the fact that Guenon found initiation necessary for the path he took does not imply it is an absolute requirement to fulfill.
That is correct, self-initiation is just extremely difficult to such an extent that Guenon considered it virtually impossible. Evola recommended it anyway since he saw no real alternatives to it.
Can something bad happen to you without a teacher? Yes. Bad things can happen to you even with a teacher. If you're dealing with esotericism you should already know that the possible side effects are many and some of them dire.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:56:49 2020 No.16976932 >>16976873 >there is some work done on it. Can you point me in it’s direction. I’ve read quite a lot and I’ve seen next to nothing.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:58:37 2020 No.16976951

>>16976922
>extremely difficult
We have access to all the information we need right now. The test is to sift through what is irrelevant to find what is worth learning.
>the possible side effects are many and some of them dire.
What are you referring to?
As long as you don't stray from the path you are inspired to take, you'll be fine.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 10:59:03 2020 No.16976953

>>16976873
And to your point, I frankly, believe that both of them had an obligation, or should’ve felt a deeper obligation, to investigate their own traditions deeper. Both of them failed to do so. Guenon even more so I think. Shallow dismissals, which are what he did, don’t exactly count as a deep and nuanced consideration.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 11:17:32 2020 No.16977064

>>16976932
Unfortunately I am far more familiar with Evola than with Guenon, but I've forgotten where exactly I read this. I just remember that Evola was criticising Guenon's understanding of apostolic succession. I think this might either have been in Men Among the Ruins or the initiation chapter in Ride the Tiger?
>>16976951
>We have access to all the information we need right now. The test is to sift through what is irrelevant to find what is worth learning.
Absorbing information will not necessarily equate spiritual growth.
>What are you referring to? As long as you don't stray from the path you are inspired to take, you'll be fine.
Even regular initiatic traditions like Kundalini Yoga warn of the possibility of death or psychosis in case of failure. Evola's guide to Hermeticism specifically points out that a flawed application of the Black Work can result in schizophrenia, debility or death.
>>16976953
AFAIK Guenon was a lot friendlier to Catholicism and Christianity than Evola? Evola would contest that he's examined precisely the organic and ancestral traditions of the West, though - European paganism, esotericism and their various surviving elements throughout the ages.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 11:20:16 2020 No.16977077

>>16977064
>Absorbing information will not necessarily equate spiritual growth.
Which is why I specifically said you needed to find the elements relevant to your growth, you omitted this part.
> the possibility of death or psychosis in case of failure.
Failure comes from fear, uncertainty, and inability to devote yourself wholly to the path you are walking (i.e. lingering doubts or regrets).

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 11:23:26 2020 No.16977093 >>16975995 >personal sensibilities resonate more with the gnostic doctrines >there are literally no surviving gnostic sects willing to take initiates inb4 become a freemason

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 11:30:29 2020 No.16977133

>>16977064
>Evola would contest that he's examined precisely the organic and ancestral traditions of the West
He didn’t. I’ve read quite a lot of his writing and that’s my conclusion. He was, unfortunately, led away by his blind repulsion for the modern West. Really disappointing and unfortunate for his readers, I think.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 11:30:32 2020 No.16977134

>>16977077
>Which is why I specifically said you needed to find the elements relevant to your growth, you omitted this part.
The more important thing I overlooked was the possible double meaning of the word "learning" in this context, though I doubt you meant it this way.
>Failure comes from fear, uncertainty, and inability to devote yourself wholly to the path you are walking (i.e. lingering doubts or regrets).
Yes, but that possibility still exists.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 11:31:18 2020 No.16977138

>>16976782
>To think you're going to run into things that are too "high level" for you, or anything of the sort, is absolutely moronic.
It’s not that, but you won’t run into them at all and and are more likely to just generate delusions or psychosis, or to confuse babbies first altered state/insight with the complete deal. If you don’t have someone who knows how to guide you there you have no way of properly getting there, or knowing what to aim for etc. Esoterism and its teachings are by nature initiatic, self-initiation is an oxymoron, a contradiction in terms. Anyone is free to experiment and evaluate and practice stuff as an outsider, and you can sometimes get partial results this way, but it is still LARPing if you do this and remained uninitiated by another but still presume to be a full practitioner and adherent of that esoteric doctrine.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 11:32:10 2020 No.16977145

>>16977133
Are you a Christian? If so, then I can see why you hold this opinion. Nevertheless, Evola maintained that certain attitudes and practices, as well as the medieval traditions of Ghibellinism, the Holy Roman Empire, the Grail myth etc referred to ancient Indo-European heritage. Hermeticism is also a Western tradition, as is Neoplatonism, both of which Evola discusses.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 11:33:32 2020 No.16977157 >>16977134 >double meaning What are you implying? English isn't my first language. >that possibility still exists. Nothing worth doing carries no risk, anyway.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 11:35:13 2020 No.16977176

>>16977138
There are no more teachers for western esotericism. Unless you're saying it's preferable to seek a teacher of exoteric traditions that'll disapprove of your endeavors, but that seems like a very ineffective way to go about it.
>self-initiation is an oxymoron
Wrong.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 11:36:08 2020 No.16977184 >>16977133 Poo poo pee pee for his readers i think

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 11:36:19 2020 No.16977186

>>16977157
>What are you implying? English isn't my first language.
Learning information - no matter how accurate - will not generate spiritual growth. Sifting through information in order to find a tradition and then practice and obtain (learn) it, however, is a different story.
>Nothing worth doing carries no risk, anyway.
Yes, but this isn't something without dangers. Some of the earlier posts claim that there's basically no danger of going into esotericism without a master. In fact, both are dangerous and one of those options much more so than the other.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 11:38:06 2020 No.16977200 >>16975195 Magnificient bastard, he did it!

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 11:38:10 2020 No.16977201 >>16976922 >Evola recommended it anyway since he saw no real alternatives to it. such can be the outlook of a man bound to his wheelchair who wasn’t willing to travel to foreign countries in search of a proper initiation

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 11:38:55 2020 No.16977208 >>16977186 >find a tradition and then practice and obtain (learn) it The learning process can be done syncretically.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 11:41:45 2020 No.16977235

>>16977176
>There are no more teachers for western esotericism
Exactly, which is why one cannot claim to be a full adherent and practitioner of western esoteric traditions (like pagan Neoplatonism) without larping. To teach yourself and reconstruct the practice of an esoteric doctrine from books is LARPing, you are ‘live-action roleplaying’ as someone who has been initiated and trying to imagine what that is like based on book knowledge.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 11:41:58 2020 No.16977237 >>16976922 Why not just stick with Christianity, isn't baptism such an initiation

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 11:42:25 2020 No.16977239

>>16977201
He was already spiritually awake at the age of 23, even participated in a short lived esoteric group which left behind a very useful manual to "self-initiation". He and Guenon corresponded frequently and had mutual respect for each other's spiritual faculties.
>>16977208
Obviously, today you'd have to read in order to gain important information for practice, but reading in and of itself doesn't help.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 11:42:45 2020 No.16977241 >>16977235 Then what are you saying? That because there are no more teachers, transcendence has become impossible? Evola didn't believe exoteric traditions to be worth anything, so by that logic, nobody can be saved anymore.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 11:43:26 2020 No.16977251 >>16977237 I refer you to this post >>16976873

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 11:43:47 2020 No.16977258 >>16977239 >spiritually awake What does that mean?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 11:47:28 2020 No.16977289 >>16977258 He attained transcendence, reached enlightenment, gnosis etc. etc. Pick your preferred term.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 11:49:42 2020 No.16977307 >>16977289 At 23? That's really young. Is it still possible nowadays?

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 11:57:14 2020 No.16977366

>>16977307
Why shouldn't it be possible? Enlightenment doesn't obey profane laws. You yourself might be a single blink away from it - it doesn't need a reason or some specific condition to manifest. Of course, suitable conditions certainly help in making enlightenment infinitely more likely. A still, calm mind, within the world but detached from it is open to enlightenment in a moment's notice.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:00:23 2020 No.16977400

>>16977289

No he did not. See? This is the problem with these authors is that almost no one actually reads them and the few who do read them either read very little or their read with certain pre-suppositions or in a very confused manner. Julius Evola was still searching for a Tradition well into middle age. He was not imitators norther did he achieve enlightenment and oneness with God.

>>16977307
No. He has an experience in the Italian alps as a young artillery officer which was impactful on him and pushed him into a phase of idealist philosophy and ultimately, spiritualism. Honestly, you need to take care who you speak to on this board. People speak so freely on topics they neither understand nor truly desire to understand and yet they’ll speak with an air of authority to mislead people.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:01:44 2020 No.16977408 >>16975195 I cannot take Guenon seriously. He looks like he lives in a tree and subsists on berries. I just can't.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:02:58 2020 No.16977416 >>16977241 He has no clue what he’s talking about. There are multiple pathways for Western imitation and this author even indicated as much.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:02:59 2020 No.16977417 >>16977366 >within the world but detached from it How do I know if I am truly detached from the world, rather than simply apathetic towards it?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:04:39 2020 No.16977426 >>16977416 >There are multiple pathways for Western imitation Without a master? What are you referring to for example?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:05:31 2020 No.16977432 >>16975257 Most muslims are incels

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:08:37 2020 No.16977446

>>16977241
>That because there are no more teachers, transcendence has become impossible?
Reaching transcendence is only impossible through traditions which had their initiatory links die out. Just as we cannot fully reconstruct Egyptian or Babylonian religion because of all the smaller countless doctrines and texts which were lost, the same applies to extinct esoteric doctrine, which is even less easily reconstructed then the exterior religious trappings from relics. But western esotericism was not the only existent tradition, so it is not as though reaching the transcendent is now impossible, the eastern or Asiatic traditions survive intact (e.g. Sufism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Taoism, Tantra etc), and there may be something worthwhile in Eastern Orthodox hesychasm as well but I don’t know it well enough to confirm.
>Evola didn't believe exoteric traditions to be worth anything, so by that logic, nobody can be saved anymore.
Guenon made the distinction between being “saved” (which is a lesser achievement he conceded could be reached purely through the exoteric participation in and fulfillment of Christianity), and on the other hand the attainment of the transcendent, gnosis, moksha. Since there are other non-western traditions still surviving, it’s not unattainable.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:10:01 2020 No.16977455

>>16977426
The range from proper initiation into the Western tradition from a spiritual master, the existence of which was never outright denied as a matter of fact and to the extent that it was it is highly debatable, to essentially divine intervention, which is too complex to really dive deep into here.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:13:33 2020 No.16977478

>>16977446
Why are exoteric western traditions of little worth?
Oriental traditions don't have many good teachers in the west, in order to be properly initiated I'm thinking the only option would be to actually move to the countries they originate from. But didn't Guenon warn against adopting a religion that was culturally far removed from your own roots?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:15:08 2020 No.16977491 >>16975195 He believed all religions were true and related to some ancient primitive faith. He also felt that Islam represented that original faith better than the others.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:16:40 2020 No.16977499 >>16977432 >fastest growing religion by birth rate alone >incels huge kaffir cope right here

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:16:57 2020 No.16977501 >>16977455 >the existence of which was never outright denied as a matter of fact Practically speaking, it's impossible

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:17:31 2020 No.16977506 There’s a concept of “counter-initiation”. Read this thread at your own risk. I’ll just leave you all with that.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:17:50 2020 No.16977509

>>16977400
>No he did not. See? This is the problem with these authors is that almost no one actually reads them and the few who do read them either read very little or their read with certain pre-suppositions or in a very confused manner. Julius Evola was still searching for a Tradition well into middle age. He was not imitators norther did he achieve enlightenment and oneness with God.
If you have anything you'd like to bring to my attention you are free to do so, but I am confident in my information.
>>16977417
It's a continual process of development. You can test yourself. It's not an easy thing and requires arduous ascesis. This is also another aspect where a master is useful. When you are making progress you will know, then just make sure to keep going.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:18:03 2020 No.16977511 >>16977446 Religions have different cosmologies and intepretations, though. What if my sensibilities align more closely to a religion that has no more adepts? Am I to abandon the cosmology that resonates with me?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:18:32 2020 No.16977515 >>16977501 According to who and what?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:19:04 2020 No.16977520 >>16977506 You can't just say that and leave it at that. Are you implying that reading inaccurate information is not only unhelpful but actively harmful?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:20:08 2020 No.16977524 >>16977515 The Traditionalists? They were the ones who brought up the idea of initiation being important in the first place, and then proceeded to claim western esotericism had no more lineages.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:22:13 2020 No.16977538

>>16977509
>If you have anything you'd like to bring to my attention you are free to do so, but I am confident in my information.
I already brought it to your attention. You mistakenly claimed that he achieved enlightenment, when in reality he was still searching for a “Tradition” well into his 50s according to his correspondence with René Guenon. He was even confused my investigating sort of marginal self-described spiritualistic figures. He was a “Traditionalist” without a Tradition in the most literal sense possible until the day he died.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:22:45 2020 No.16977543

>>16977520
He's referring to the idea that subversive currents feed subversive information to spiritually minded people and lead them below, rather than above their own level. Counter-initiation was a term particularly used against Theosophists and other pantheistic currents. I am not sure why he thought it would be appropriate to use this term here, when all of the disagreements in this thread that I am aware of are of an entirely different character.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:24:00 2020 No.16977553

>>16977524
>They were the ones who brought up the idea of initiation being important in the first place
>then proceeded to claim western esotericism had no more lineages
Wholly incorrect. Your background is insufficient in this area and that’s all I’ll say further on the matter.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:25:20 2020 No.16977563 >>16977520 >>16977543 There are people who know what they’re talking about and doing and people who don’t.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:25:43 2020 No.16977567 >>16977553 >that’s all I’ll say further on the matter. Sure, don't tell me why I'm wrong, we wouldn't want any valuable information to be exchanged in this thread.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:28:25 2020 No.16977590

>>16977567
I don’t have the ability nor the capacity to give you a detailed rundown on the history of Western spirituality to debunk what you’re claiming. To expect me to do so is unreasonable. However, the claim is simply not true. Don’t take offense. You just need to read more, or preferably seek out a teacher or expert on this sort of thing.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:28:44 2020 No.16977593 >>16976015 So it's Guenon (mAhmoh)?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:29:26 2020 No.16977602 >>16977590 To be clear, I don’t have the ability nor capacity because we’re on 4channel.org.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:29:34 2020 No.16977603

>>16977538
>I already brought it to your attention. You mistakenly claimed that he achieved enlightenment, when in reality he was still searching for a “Tradition” well into his 50s according to his correspondence with René Guenon. He was even confused my investigating sort of marginal self-described spiritualistic figures. He was a “Traditionalist” without a Tradition in the most literal sense possible until the day he died.
You will have to be more detailed than that and provide me with something I can work with. I am sure that he was looking to expand his knowledge of Tradition (transcendence), but I strongly doubt he was looking for a particular traditional current to settle in, such as Sufism, Tantrism or something else. He advised his readers to pursue "preformal" transcendence (i.e. Tradition with a capital T rather than tradition). Similarly, he also spoke of his spiritual awakening at 23 and even credited a couple of presumably esoteric figures for subtly strengthening his spirit in The Path of Cinnabar. He was also engaged in esoteric practices (the Introduction to Magic contains a modified form of Hermeticism) and relied on the knowledge provided by his enlightenment to interpret various traditional doctrines such as Kundalini Yoga and Buddhism in his books. He is also known to have read various esoteric texts - a practice that would be worthless without the necessary spiritual competence.
>>16977563
Yes, but most of this is just confusion or general mistakes. I fail to see the counter-initiatic aspect in this thread.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:29:53 2020 No.16977604 >>16977590 I wasn't the one who first brought up the fact that Guenon insisted on lineages being crucial to spiritual development, are you saying this isn't true?

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:30:07 2020 No.16977606

>>16977524
Western esotericism has always had a focus on initiation. I agree with the other poster, you're out of your depth here. Go read up on Hermeticism (Not The Kybalion), the Eleusinian mysteries, Plato's unwritten doctrines. Initiation into the mysteries has always been crucial.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:32:20 2020 No.16977618

>>16977511
You're to realize your favoured cosmology is not as limited to one religion as you think it is. Cosmology is symbolism, and symbolism is universal. If you can't see the reflections of your cosmology in other traditions then you don't have as much of a handle on it as you think you do.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:33:36 2020 No.16977629

>>16977478
>Why are exoteric western traditions of little worth?
They are not of little worth, providing a guiding force for society, promoting moral behavior, offering an opening for people to get into mysticism; these are not small things. It’s just that none of them provides a direct link to the transcendent that a living chain and tradition of esoteric instruction does. Christianity at present does not have any equivalent of Sufi brotherhoods which the average Christian can join and be instructed in esoteric doctrine; if these things exist in Christianity they are few and far in-between, not accessible to most people; hopefully this eventually changes.

>Oriental traditions don't have many good teachers in the west, in order to be properly initiated I'm thinking the only option would be to actually move to the countries they originate from.
That would be a good idea, although you can also spend some time or years there fully assimilating the teachers, and then move back and participate in your home country in a like-minded religious community there. There are a few authentic Hindu and Sufi teachers in the west, but unless you are going to move by them or happen to live by them and go there all the time for instruction it may be better to go to the geographic source anyway.

>But didn't Guenon warn against adopting a religion that was culturally far removed from your own roots?
He warned against the west trying to superficially adopt the trappings of eastern doctrines in a non-authentic way (i.e. as in NeoVedanta or New Age Sufism), but he never said that individual westerners could not authentically join eastern religions other than Islam. One’s of Guenon’s friends, John Levy, who purchased his Guenon’s house for him in Cairo, was a British Jew who traveled to India and was initiated into Hinduism there, Alain Danielou joined a Shaivist sect as well I believe. And Guenon himself was also initiated into Taoism.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:34:49 2020 No.16977638 >>16977629 >And Guenon himself was also initiated into Taoism I've heard this before, where can I read about this? Is it in a biography or something?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:36:03 2020 No.16977651 Brainlet here. Why is initiation so important? Is, say, a priest giving you guidance not enough? What is meant by initiation?

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:36:13 2020 No.16977654

>>16977603
Go read his post-war letters to René Guenon.

>>16977604
What do you mean by “brought up”. René Guenon emphasized its importance and he was a forerunner in doing so as it pertains to the school of thought which came after him but he’s far from the first person to discuss the aspect of imitation or emphasize it’s importance historically. That’s what I’m saying.

You’re confusing the finger with the moon.

https://youtu.be/LH1GFaw09hk

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:37:16 2020 No.16977666 >>16977603 >I fail to see the counter-initiatic aspect in this thread. Then that is your failure.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:38:16 2020 No.16977673 >>16977629 >none of them provides a direct link to the transcendent Even within monastic orders?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:40:12 2020 No.16977686 >>16977618 There are similarities, but cosmologies have unique components and specific conceptions of the metaphysical that are found in no other doctrines.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:40:58 2020 No.16977692 >>16975195 >so many Muslims on this board In the case of conversion: what's the appeal?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:41:20 2020 No.16977696 >>16977654 >Go read his post-war letters to René Guenon. I am aware of their correspondence, but not of its contents. Do you have anything you can post?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:42:01 2020 No.16977704 >>16977638 Yes, Sedgewicks book covers it. A Frenchman who had been initiated into a Taoist Triad in Vietnam came into contact with Guenon in France and initiated him into it there:

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:42:16 2020 No.16977706 >>16977686 Like what? Are you familiar with the notion of sacred symbolism as a purer expression of metaphysical truth than philosophy and cosmology?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:43:17 2020 No.16977714 >>16977704 Thanks anon I still haven't gotten around to reading it

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:43:45 2020 No.16977720 >>16977706 It's not esoteric, but the hypostatic union of the Trinity is unique to Christianity. It has a special significance, yet is not found anywhere else.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:46:27 2020 No.16977743 >>16977720 Hypostasis (even the word as it is used) comes from Neoplatonic philosophy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypostasis_(philosophy_and_religion)

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:47:57 2020 No.16977753

Serious question: why shouldn't I pursue a path of my own design? I've had good results with inducing altered states like out of body experiences, that have brought me to some personal realizations. I can feel that I'm improving and starting to understand things. Of course I supplement these experiences with knowledge I can relate them to, because they give me a broader understanding of things and allow me to draw connections. But I don't feel compelled to walk a predetermined path, though I'll freely draw some elements from whatever knowledge I happen to run into. How am I fucking up here?

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:48:05 2020 No.16977755

>>16977673
>Even within monastic orders?
Some theorized esoteric tradition of Hesychast spiritual teachings practiced in some Eastern Orthodox monasteries somewhere may lead to this, but there is little to no documentation of them or information available about them, at least in the English part of the internet. There may be something as well with the mason-like compagnonnage movement in France, but whether they instruct people in genuine esoteric metaphysical doctrines I cannot say.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:48:58 2020 No.16977764 >>16977176 >There are no more teachers for western esotericism The Freemasons

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:49:14 2020 No.16977769 >>16977743 I'm talking about the Trinity, not the notion of hypostasis

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:51:03 2020 No.16977782 >>16975195 He looks like when he opens his mouth, accordion noises come out instead of words.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:51:51 2020 No.16977792 >>16977755 >mason-like compagnonnage movement in France I'm pretty sure they just teach you a job, unless I'm unaware of the ancient metaphysical doctrines of carpentry and woodworking

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:53:23 2020 No.16977803 >>16977764 Yes but the teachings are perverted.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:57:01 2020 No.16977835 >>16977769 You're talking about an exoteric doctrine then. Cosmologies obviously differ exoterically, I'm not sure what you're saying then.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:57:29 2020 No.16977840

>>16977753
What would the Traditionalists have to say about the contemporary, individual and nondenominational (i.e. not New Age) revival of spirituality through direct experience, such as what we're seeing now with the rekindled interest in the exploration of the self? I see threads about astral projection or inducing altered states through asceticism really frequently now, much more than just a couple years ago.
And that's not even getting into the whole neo-Gnostic movement which seems to take root on the Internet and will therefore inevitably spread out to the mainstream soon.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 12:57:40 2020 No.16977845

>>16977696
I read them in Italian but English translations of at least some of them exist and they’re online but unfortunately, I don’t have a link for you. You’ll just have to find them. But even not considering these, you’re still mistaking a spiritual awakening to spiritual enlightenment. The letters will clear this up but that’s what I’m pointing out.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:00:35 2020 No.16977867

>>16977835
Yeah my example was retarded. I'll take an actual esoteric example: there's the gnostic Ogdoad, journeying through celestial spheres, which I've never seen brought up in other western doctrines, including (and especially) Neoplatonism. The Egyptians had a similar notion, but I'm not sure if it carried the same implications or if the resemblance was merely aesthetic, as I'm not familiar with Egypt at all

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:00:51 2020 No.16977869 >>16977840 It's pseudo-initaitic at best and counter-initaitc at worst. The exact thing they warn against.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:01:46 2020 No.16977874 >>16977869 What has brought you to that conclusion, specifically?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:06:16 2020 No.16977901 >>16977874 >individual and nondenominational (i.e. not New Age) revival of spirituality through direct experience To have the esoteric without the exoteric is dangerous

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:07:48 2020 No.16977913 >>16977901 Why? Isn't the exoteric a mere framework that should be only used as a symbolic pointer towards a deeper truth?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:08:27 2020 No.16977917 >>16977867 Honestly I would have to look into it and I don't expect you to sit here and wait for me but what I'll say is that I don't consider gnosticism to be Traditional in the way the Traditionalist School would've used the word.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:09:53 2020 No.16977926

>>16977845
Ah I see what you mean. It's difficult to discuss the precise terminology, but at any rate Evola was very spiritually accomplished. I can not say to what grade he managed to take his development by the end of his life, but I am sure it was a high level considering his lifestyle, actions and the doctrines he was engaging with. He was certainly no ordinary man.
>>16977901
No.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:09:57 2020 No.16977927 >>16977917 I can wait, as long as the thread is still alive by the time you get your answer. Why do you consider gnosticism to be non-traditional?

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:11:50 2020 No.16977943

Evola says there is nothing esoteric to be found in Christianity, but people like Eckhart or Rose could very much be considered esotericists, so I'm not sure why he dismissed the entire religion like that. The fact that Christianity doesn't currently have an esoteric tradition doesn't mean that its exoteric teachings are not compatible with esoteric practice.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:12:13 2020 No.16977951 >>16977913 This is what people who want you to be reckless in spiritual matters would have you believe.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:16:15 2020 No.16977984 >>16977943 You're right, it's because Evola didn't have as much insight as he thought he did. Read Guenon and Schuon instead, Evola wasn't even a part of the traditionalist school, he was basically just winging it and copying Guenon.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:17:40 2020 No.16978001 >>16977943 Evola discusses Eckhart, though. >>16977984 What a petty, childish take.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:20:26 2020 No.16978025 >>16978001 It's also true. Evola was never initiated into a tradition.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:26:44 2020 No.16978080 >>16977867 Have you even bothered to read any of the 'Neoplatonism' you speak of? The Enneads of Plotinus (an Egyptian neoplatonist) or Proclus' commentaries on the Timaeus?

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:27:20 2020 No.16978085

>>16977927
>As for Gnosticism, whether it arises in a Christian, Moslem or other climate, it is a fabric of more or less disordered speculations, often of Manichean origin; and it is a mythomania characterized by a dangerous mixture of exoteric and esoteric concepts. Doubtless it contains symbolisms that are not without interest -- the contrary would be astonishing -- but it is said that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"; it could just as well be said that it is paved with symbolisms
Schuon on gnosticism.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:33:19 2020 No.16978116

>>16977840
>the whole neo-Gnostic movement which seems to take root on the Internet and will therefore inevitably spread out to the mainstream soon.
Gibberish spread by people who watched the Matrix and looked up early church history on Wikipedia. To make matters worse, we mainly know of gnosticism through the surviving rebuttals of its opponents. There are far less garbled systems which better explain the illusory nature of the phenomenal or material world(s). Much like the reddit-tier belief that we live in a simulation run by an AI, giving agency to a malevolent Demiurge is the bored musings of poorly-read post-Christian atheists drawn to smoothbrained moralizing about good and evil

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:34:30 2020 No.16978125 >>16977951 So would these people benefit from joining an exoteric tradition while continuing with their independent esoteric practices or do you need perfect harmony between the two?

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:35:38 2020 No.16978130

>>16977927
>>16978085
I think Schuon's comment here is enough to express what I was struggling to get at in your posts, you're mixing the esoteric and exoteric. The traditionalists have specific definitions of what they mean by those terms, their definition of esoteric is not as loose as the pop culture definition. If you are unfamiliar with the traditionalist school I can only recommend studying them yourself.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:37:00 2020 No.16978139 >>16978001 >Evola discusses Eckhart What's his opinion on him?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:38:18 2020 No.16978147 File: 525 KB, 2000x1204, 1F287C49-CA26-4D01-8913-C750A11BDA0C.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16975195 Because he enjoyed mystic union with his Muslim brethren.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:41:05 2020 No.16978174 >>16978125 In short, yes. But what do you mean by esoteric practices, in this sense? What western occultists call magic is simply the manipulation of the subtle state of being.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:44:25 2020 No.16978195 >>16978139 Pretty good. IIRC some excerpts from Eckhart are even included in "Introduction to Magic".

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:46:13 2020 No.16978207 >>16978116 Actually there was a good thread yesterday that expanded on the gnostic viewpoint >>16968080. The way you describe it isn't very accurate.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:48:42 2020 No.16978222 >>16978130 Well, is esotericism not generally considered to be hidden knowledge, or knowledge that one needs to be initiated into, as opposed to exotericism which is accessible to all and does not presume a level of aptitude?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:48:56 2020 No.16978224 >>16978207 But there isn't one gnostic viewpoint, is there? There are different schools of thought with differing interpretations and cosmologies, aren't there? Sethianism, Valentinianism, Basilidean?

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:51:00 2020 No.16978245

>>16978224
Yeah, but these are details, gnosticism can also be studied syncretically. Anon makes a good point about how gnosticism, since it's fragmented, would benefit from a contemporary revival adapted to the modern age. I'm grossly paraphrasing, but I thought the arguments made in the thread were good.
Either way, it's not just just dumb shit like "simulation theory with mysticism", that's a reducive and narrow-minded take.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:52:20 2020 No.16978254

>>16978222
Yes but esoteric knowledge cannot be learned simply by reading it, it must be practiced, as being and knowing are not distinct. And as such a student must be accompanied by a master so that the master can transmit this knowledge directly. Are you familiar with the concept of the transmission of mind?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:54:15 2020 No.16978265 >>16978174 >what do you mean by esoteric practices The original question was >>16977753. I think we need to contextualize things here because I'm not talking about occultism.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:56:38 2020 No.16978279 >>16978254 >transmission of mind Isn't it the idea of direct transmission of knowledge between the master and the student?

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:56:44 2020 No.16978282

>>16978245
I'm not the poster who compared it to the matrix but I don't have much hope for gnosticism either. Where is the gnostic lineage of succession? It seems to me that gnosis is attainable but not from within the revived gnostic tradition, ironically enough.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:57:47 2020 No.16978287 >>16978282 >Where is the gnostic lineage of succession? There's the Mandaeans but you can't join. The point of the thread was that the lineage of succession was unnecessary.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 13:59:51 2020 No.16978300 >>16978265 I didn't see that post. Essentially you are walking in darkness and there are pitfalls.

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oI3er5KKetj Tue Dec 8 14:00:35 2020 No.16978310 >>16975195 Look at the flat top! He’d have converted to Mormonism if a pair of them found him.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:02:20 2020 No.16978326 >>16978287 I haven't read that thread so I don't know the arguments but I disagree.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:03:21 2020 No.16978330 >>16978279 Yes and it's essential unless you're a mystic who is granted gnosis directly. Which if that was the case we wouldn't be here in this thread.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:03:48 2020 No.16978335 >>16978207 >>16978245 >Either way, it's not just just dumb shit like "simulation theory with mysticism", that's a reducive and narrow-minded take Based on the pedestrian memeified form of it I'd say that's what we will be hearing about going forward.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:04:04 2020 No.16978338

>>16978300
Is the spiritual backbone, so to speak, provided by an exoteric tradition enough to avoid those pitfalls, or should I go against my initial compulsion and seek out an initiatic tradition I don't feel anything towards?
To put it in less ambiguous terms: I'm making decent progress on my own, even if I am walking in darkness. Can the guidance from an exoteric tradition serve as a way to avoid mistakes while continuing to walk my own path, or is it not enough?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:06:38 2020 No.16978365 >>16978326 I suggest you read it then, since it's not really possible to argue about something if you don't know where I'm coming from.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:08:33 2020 No.16978386

>>16978335
Not him but you people are too focused on the theory. Evidence from AP and drawing together testimonies and sacred texts led several people to the same observations during the last couple decades but you would disregard this because they didn't follow the path of initiation you figure is the only way to truth

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:10:49 2020 No.16978395

>>16978338
That's called syncretism and should be avoided. You will be effectively be trying to walk different paths at the same time. Most who attempt to walk just one path never reach the end. If you can synthesise the teachings into one Traditional doctrine then that's different. But if you feel that you're making progress esoterically, can you not see the same underlying teachings in the different doctrines?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:13:07 2020 No.16978421 >>16978365 I had a brief look and someone recommended Franz Bardon. That kind of self-initiation is only initiation into the lesser mysteries and not the greater mysteries, which must be done via transmission from a master.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:13:40 2020 No.16978424 >>16975195 extremely low IQ

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:15:19 2020 No.16978437

>>16978395
>can you not see the same underlying teachings in the different doctrines?
Yes, but I'm not compelled to adopt any one of these traditions as my own because I just don't feel anything from them that I'm not getting more intensely on my own. The way I'm phrasing it makes it sound prideful, but it's really just a matter of following what my instincts tell me are right, and also the fear of getting bogged down by elements of a tradition I don't deeply care for.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:15:33 2020 No.16978441 >>16978386 What evidence and what observations? There's a difference between magic and astral projection and Gnosis. Lesser and greater.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:17:04 2020 No.16978457 >>16978386 I don't believe in initiation. Merely speaking with someone is highly unlikely to produce an enlightened state. And if it was you'd have to pick the right one. You need to reach such a state on your own, it would seem.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:18:14 2020 No.16978467 >>16978441 It's all given in the thread Direct observation of what gnostics call archons and of the system used to cause rebirth, the reason why this is happening, the realization of the material plane being harvested, and what gnosis actually is

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:18:37 2020 No.16978472

>>16978437
It does make you sound prideful. My own practice has made me feel drawn to all of the traditional doctrines instead of shunning them, but obviously we are different here. Your intuition is very powerful. What kind of practices have you been doing? As I've said to others in this thread about three times now, there is a difference between the lesser mysteries and the greater mysteries.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:19:43 2020 No.16978483 >>16978457 That's my point anon, I agree with you Gnosis can definitely be reached on your own and I think this is to be encouraged rather than shunned

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:20:16 2020 No.16978488 >>16978457 Merely speaking? You are joking. Do you know what Mind is, really is? Initiation is not just someone telling you something.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:21:42 2020 No.16978496 >>16978488 I've seen people in these threads recommend going to Kashmir to be initiated into worshipping Shiva.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:22:00 2020 No.16978499 >>16978483 >Gnosis can definitely be reached on your own What do you suppose gnosis is?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:22:43 2020 No.16978504 >>16978395 Can you locate a faith which is not syncretic?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:23:02 2020 No.16978505 >>16978499 It's synonymous with enlightenment

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:23:19 2020 No.16978507 >>16978496 That will get you closer to gnosis than reading gnostic texts on the internet and astral projecting. That's a genuine path. I don't recommend that though, there are innumerable genuine paths.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:25:02 2020 No.16978516 >>16978504 Syncretism is being contrasted with synthesis. Traditional doctrines are synthesised. Not thrown together haphazardly like theosophy or Wicca. That's the difference.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:25:27 2020 No.16978526

>>16978472
>My own practice has made me feel drawn to all of the traditional doctrines
I didn't say they were to be completely dismissed, I find them interesting but only as supplements in order to better understand what I'm dealing with, and always by drawing from different sources both western and eastern (never just focusing on one source unless it feels particularly compelling, but this is rare).
>What kind of practices have you been doing?
Ascesis and a considerable amount of meditation and contemplation. Do you consider out-of-body experiences to be a "lesser mystery"? If so, would you still say it is conducive to grasping the greater ones?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:26:05 2020 No.16978530 >>16978505 And what do you suppose enlightenment is?

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:26:28 2020 No.16978534

>>16978507
If there are innumerable genuine paths then why ought we be overly concerned with initiation? Initiation is clearly a path and not a destination. No one is initiated for initiation's sake unless they are playing Pokémon with theurgy. It is more important to understand what is sought than how.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:26:29 2020 No.16978535 >>16978507 >there are innumerable genuine paths. Is there a list somewhere

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:27:21 2020 No.16978550 >>16978530 I don't suppose anything about it, I just strive towards it

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:29:22 2020 No.16978565 File: 362 KB, 710x805, 1579016779556.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16978516 Synthesis is the repetition of syncretism. What looks thrown together is that which failed to be viable as a whole.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:31:06 2020 No.16978580 File: 168 KB, 1188x798, 1593200372014.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16978550 Based and apophasis pilled

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:32:25 2020 No.16978590 >>16978534 The genuine paths have genuine masters and a genuine lineage. Sitting around meditating is not going to grant you Gnosis. Why do you think you can do it on your own? Apart from the fact that you want to be able to do it on your own.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:32:52 2020 No.16978593 >>16978590 >Why do you think you can do it on your own? Why do you think you can't?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:33:45 2020 No.16978595 >>16978550 And how do you know in which direction to go?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:34:25 2020 No.16978601 >>16978595 I follow my purest intuition.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:34:29 2020 No.16978602

>>16978507
>That's a genuine path.
unfortunately the initiatic lineage for Kashmir Shaivism did not survive intact, if one wants to be genuinely initiated into a school of Shaivism which does survive today it would have to be something like the Veerashaivas or Naths or Shaiva Siddhanta

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:35:12 2020 No.16978604 >>16978593 In truth I think it can be done but it's so rare as to be practically impossible, so I try and discourage people from trying it on their own as they're basics wasting their time.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:36:13 2020 No.16978614 >>16978602 I'll take your word for it, I assumed you were mocking Shaivism in general which is why I said that.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:36:19 2020 No.16978617 >>16978604 >I think it can be done but it's so rare as to be practically impossible Why?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:36:24 2020 No.16978618 >>16977593 According to this fatwa, it should be avoided to use such abbreviations. https://www.islamweb.net/en/fatwa/88624/using-abbreviations-for-greeting

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:37:20 2020 No.16978629 >>16978601 And what do you think 'your' intuition is? And how do you know it's pure?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:38:25 2020 No.16978639 >>16978617 Who has done it?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:38:43 2020 No.16978642 >>16978629 Intuition is always pure, otherwise it can't be called intuition. You're trying to corner me into some sort of semantic argument, I don't really care for that, just state what you think instead of trying to make me admit to things.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:38:54 2020 No.16978645 >>16978614 I actually wasn’t that guy but happened to randomly jump in at that moment

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:39:49 2020 No.16978652

>>16978590
Don't these masters trace themselves back to a. Someone self-enlightened or b. Someone enlightened by a God? If I don't believe I can do it, why should I believe they can? The foundation of their legitimacy rests upon someone doing it without them

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:40:00 2020 No.16978654 >>16978639 I don't know. But it seems obvious that you'd mainly hear about the spiritually accomplished when they belong to a specific sect, because they're perpetuating a tradition instead of going their own way.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:41:09 2020 No.16978666 >>16978602 Ah so Kashmir was a meme after all. I work with someone in my IT department named Shivakumar so I'll ask him to confirm

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:42:40 2020 No.16978679

>>16978507
>>16978602
See, this is my gripe with initiation. There isn't any way to be fully certain of the legitimacy of the lineage you choose. Why encumber yourself with those things? Make your own synthesis of the teachings through diligent study; if you can, speak to several people who are walking different paths. This ideal of having transcendent knowledge imparted to you through a teacher seems to be (for some people, not all of them) a way to avoid taking responsibility for their own spiritual awakening.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:43:01 2020 No.16978686

>>16978642
The fact that you're afraid of someone even asking questions shows you need questions asked of you. This is why students take a master. How do you know when you're secure in your practice that you are following your intuition and not your desires? It's not semantics. It's of the upmost importance.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:43:18 2020 No.16978687 >>16976656 >Ivan Agueli Lol, Swedes cucking since 100 years ago.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:44:00 2020 No.16978695 >>16975195 so he could rape white women

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:46:34 2020 No.16978712

>>16978686
>afraid
Why are you putting words in my mouth?
>How do you know when you're secure in your practice that you are following your intuition and not your desires?
Because desire cannot be truly mistaken for inuition, there is always a mental process of rationalization that occurs when you lie to yourself like this.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:49:18 2020 No.16978726 >only Christianity speaks to me >it's also the only great religion with no esoteric lineage to speak of What am I supposed to do then?

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:49:41 2020 No.16978731

>>16978712
Yes, and that's what several of you have been doing this whole thread. Rationalizing why you don't need a lineage so you can tell yourselves you can achieve gnosis from the comfort of your own bedroom. It's not about learning specific things from a teacher. It's about the transmission of Mind.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:50:59 2020 No.16978744 >>16978726 It's possible to synthesise.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:51:30 2020 No.16978749 >>16978731 No, you are very wrong. But you don't want to admit it, or to look outside of the narrow field of vision you've forced yourself to see through, so I think there's no point in continuing to discuss this. Good luck.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:52:27 2020 No.16978758 >>16978744 How? Several people ITT have been saying Christianity does not offer initiation.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:53:29 2020 No.16978767

>>16978726
>esoteric Christianity
It's called Neon Genesis Evangelion. You have to progessively encounter the Angels on the noetic field of immanence until you reach apotheosis, becoming Christ on the Cross and titanically devouring your ego to recreate the entire cosmos.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:53:55 2020 No.16978771 >>16978749 Do you think I don't want self-initiation and self-gnosis to be possible? Do you think I came to believe this arbitrarily?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:54:58 2020 No.16978781 >>16978758 Christianity has no lay initiation. You would need to become a benedictine monk or something

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:55:08 2020 No.16978785 >>16978767 Please be serious, I'm asking this in good faith.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:55:42 2020 No.16978791 >>16978771 I don't know how you came to believe this, but I suggest you try considering that those beliefs might not be the truth.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:56:26 2020 No.16978798 >>16978758 They're right and wrong simultaneously. Exoteric Christianity has a lesser initiation which was originally esoteric (Baptism) and a higher one which is still esoteric (you're not going to get it from your local church but it's out there)

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:57:00 2020 No.16978803

>>16978781
Then it has initiation, but only if you choose the monastic life? What does Christian initiation consist of?
For someone who's seriously and earnestly seeking enlightenment, I don't see how they'd expect to reach it without living a life of strict asceticism anyway.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:57:50 2020 No.16978812 >>16978785 I'm not being unserious. You could fuse tantric practices with biblically informed visualizations. The Church never taught this because it didn't like theurgy or Egypt and Babylon/Chaldea.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:58:00 2020 No.16978814

>>16978791
There's only one truth. You don't want to accept the fact you might not be able to attain it on your own. I understand but I think you're wrong. I've tried to stop you wasting your time but it's up to you. You won't get it by astral projection.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:58:01 2020 No.16978815 >>16978798 >(you're not going to get it from your local church but it's out there) Could you give me more details? What should I be looking for?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 14:59:01 2020 No.16978821 >>16978812 But where's the initiatic component there?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:00:15 2020 No.16978835 >>16978815 The various christian monastic orders

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:01:31 2020 No.16978851 >>16978821 If you are Christian you are already baptized. Christianity universalized esotericism which is why everyone says there is no Christian esotericism

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:01:33 2020 No.16978852 >>16978835 The denomination (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox) doesn't matter? Sometimes I read that Orthodoxy is more mystical, but I don't see anything that points towards this being the case.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:03:09 2020 No.16978865 >>16978814 >There's only one truth Yes, and many ways to reach it. By assuming that you need a master, you are limiting yourself; which is not to say advice is worthless, but that ultimately, your path is your own, and your gnosis is your own.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:04:38 2020 No.16978880 >>16978852 Do you think God only speaks to one denomination of Christians? Orthodox has a more rich literary and practical mystical tradition, it's true. Look into it more friend, Hesychasm. Good luck.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:04:42 2020 No.16978882 >>16978851 I thought the point of initiation is that it could not be universalized but had to follow an individually transmitted process?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:05:43 2020 No.16978890 >>16978880 Okay, thank you anon.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:06:44 2020 No.16978899 >>16978865 It's not about advice. There are infinite ways to reach it. Not every path leads to gnosis, however. You seem to have decided you can do it yourself. Good luck.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:08:16 2020 No.16978911 >>16978882 He's wrong. You've got it. Read Guenon on initiation, he covers all of this.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:10:07 2020 No.16978927 >>16978835 Why couldn't a priest act as a spiritual guide? That's their job. The guy's not gonna tell you to fuck off if you come to him seeking knowledge of the divine.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:11:42 2020 No.16978939 >>16978899 >There are infinite ways to reach it And yet most lineages are corrupt.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:12:20 2020 No.16978945 >>16978758 they are talking about catholicism and protestantism and entirely forgetting about the orthodox tradition

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:14:16 2020 No.16978958 >>16978911 >Guenon on initiation Which book? Is it also wrong that monastic orders offer true initiation or is that really possible? I honestly want to avoid relinquishing Christianity if at all possible.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:15:37 2020 No.16978968 >>16978911 Ah yes the guy who converted to Sufism. I guess he wasn't impressed by the prospects of a Christian initiation either?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:16:29 2020 No.16978975 >>16978939 Exactly, so imagine how hard it is outside of a lineage. Do you think it would've become easier?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:17:09 2020 No.16978981 >>16978975 The point is that lineages are not as meaningful as you think they are. Most people don't even agree on which lineages are actually legitimate and pure, if any at all.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:19:44 2020 No.16979009 >>16978939 Where is your evidence for such a claim? How would you even know?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:20:08 2020 No.16979014 >>16979009 I wouldn't, that's just what the Traditionalists claim.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:20:28 2020 No.16979016 >>16978981 It's not about what I think.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:21:10 2020 No.16979025 >>16979016 Quite the prideful implication.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:21:31 2020 No.16979027 >>16978958 He has several books on initiation so all of them. I believe the esoteric christian tradition is alive within the monastic orders, yes.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:22:58 2020 No.16979044 >>16979025 You're the one who's convinced himself he can do it alone. That's prideful.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:23:23 2020 No.16979049 >>16979014 Only Evola said anything like that, and its a nonsense claim

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:23:26 2020 No.16979050 >>16979044 No, it's just the truth. I'm trying to help you see that you don't need anyone else than yourself.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:24:28 2020 No.16979057 >>16979049 Then what are the legitimate lineages, and what makes them any more legitimate than the others?

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:25:45 2020 No.16979068

>>16978882
In my opinion Christianity largely did away with esoteric doctrines and initiation, at least the extant variety of Christianity, which lived to supress Neoplatonism, Hermeticism, Gnosticism/Manichaeism, and created an alternative liberation path where belief in Christ and his Church was sufficient, which it bequethed to Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodoxy as the most essential teaching. The great irony today is that the Christian Bible is viewed by moderns the same way early Christian theologians viewed Homer and Hesiod. But while moderns were able to rediscover Plato and confirm that their heathen ancestors were not totally beholden to bestial fairy tales, with Christianity this cannot be done easily, and so among those who delve deep into Christianity for some kind of a-symbolic enlightened truth, they either have to become Platonic or Kabbalistic

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:26:04 2020 No.16979075 >>16979027 >the esoteric christian tradition Is there information on what its tenets are? "Christian esotericism" has been associated with gnosticism for a while and I can't find much of anything else aside from some elements derived from Platonism.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:28:16 2020 No.16979095

>>16979050
You don't know what the self is. If you did, you would know it is Mind. If you knew what Mind was, you would not shun the initiation and the transmission of Mind. You want to do it yourself, I get that. It's the rugged individuality of the spiritually inclined. It's the ideology of the reign of quantity. Atomisation. The shunning of tradition. I'll just say it again, you won't astrally project yourself into gnosis. You're in the lesser mysteries.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:29:36 2020 No.16979105 >>16979095 >You're in the lesser mysteries. What makes you so sure of this?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:31:07 2020 No.16979114 >>16979075 Guenon and Shuon both have books on christian esoterism. Jean Borella has one as well. Look there.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:31:12 2020 No.16979116 >>16979057 They trace to a founder; that's right, someone who wasn't initiated by a lineage. So in other words, it is possible to be enlightened without trasmission from a lineage holder.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:32:35 2020 No.16979126 >>16979068 > they either have to become Platonic or Kabbalistic Are you saying that there is no enlightened truth to be grasped directly from Christianity? Also, isn't Platonism highly compatible with the Christian faith?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:34:03 2020 No.16979138 >>16979116 Yes, that's it. By entering a lineage, you are given insight into the path of its founder, which makes your journey easier. But there is no implication that walking your own path is a wrong choice.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:36:41 2020 No.16979162 Christian mysticism is alive and well and many saints were mystics, just because there is no explicit esoteric doctrine, like Islam has with Sufism or Judaism with Kabbalism, doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:37:24 2020 No.16979169

>>16979105
Because the lesser mysteries involve manipulation of the subtle state of being, which is what astral projection is. It's low down on the list of importance or challenge for the traditionalists. The end goal of the higher mysteries is Henosis. In order to even begin working with the higher mysteries, you need the transmission of Mind via initiation. Unless God himself comes down and gives you gnosis, you need to be initiated into the higher mysteries of an alive tradition. You cannot and will not be able to initiate yourself into the higher mysteries because you don't even know what they are or how to get there. There is no separation between Being and Knowing at the highest levels.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:38:44 2020 No.16979180

>>16979057
Legitimate lineages tend to be which preserve their link to their founder or the religions founding, and which still preserve the same uncorrupted teachings which they have always safeguarded and passed down. It’s not a “corrupted until proven otherwise” situation. In Hinduism for example there are spiritual lineages/schools called sampradayas which preserve the legitimate lineage of their respective doctrine, such as the Dashnami Sampradaya for Advaita Vedanta, or the Ramanandi Sampradaya for Vishishtadvaita Vedanta, to name just a few of the many legitimate sampradayas. In Islam, Sufi brotherhoods are the equivalent of sampradayas. I’m less informed about Islam, but I would assume that traditional Sufi orders which have been around for hundreds of years up until the present day like the Naqshbandi and Qadiriyya are still legitimate

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:39:45 2020 No.16979191 >>16979116 >>16979138 The founders being Christ, Mohammed, Bhudda, Krishna. It's not arbitrary.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:41:21 2020 No.16979200 >>16979116 In Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism when people talk about the “founder” of a new sect, 99% of the time (I’m not aware of a single exception) that founder had previous initiations in that same religion, or even multiple initiations already

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:43:01 2020 No.16979215

>>16979169
I'm not sure why you keep bringing up AP as I never claimed it was some kind of transcendent state.
Henosis (and its other names) are largely documented and explained by scholars and theologians, so if it's a matter of knowledge as you seem to imply, there's no problem there.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:45:04 2020 No.16979236 >>16979180 What about Buddhism?

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:48:38 2020 No.16979267
File: 1004 KB, 1050x652, 1576010233912.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>16978798
>>16979068
Why are you guys saying there's no initiation in Christianity? Just because there aren't any secret sects doesn't mean there isn't any form of initiatic knowledge being passed on to those who seek it.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:49:30 2020 No.16979271

>>16979126
I think there could be if one carefully analyzed Christianity into its parts, but to me there are better vehicles so to speak, which have suffered less distortions over time. The Platonic One has similarities with Christian monotheism but Plato assigns creation of the cosmos to the Demiurge rather than the One directly, and Platonic commentators such as Proclus elaborate this Demiurge further into trinities, e.g. Jupiter-Poseidon-Pluto, to give one such divergence from Christian theology. Genesis and the Timaeus are largely incompatible unless you really strain yourself (I suppose God does create the world twice in Genesis in addition to flooding it, while the Timaeus describes cyclical floods—there appears to be something fluent rather than permanent about creation, food for thought).

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:50:17 2020 No.16979284

>>16979215
You said it was your practice. That means you are at the beginning of a long journey. One that you will almost certainly not reach the end of before you die without a guru. It's not about knowledge as you are using the word. I've tried to warn you, I'm done with this conversation. Your ego is too big, that's your first stumbling block. Good luck with your journey.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:50:58 2020 No.16979288 >>16979271 The problem is that there's no Platonic school to speak of, no teachers and therefore no initiation.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:51:51 2020 No.16979297

>>16979236
Not him, but lineage is a big deal among monastic communities. Every monk can, in theory, trace his lineage back to the Buddha (or rather a Buddha, but that's semantics). In practice, however, most monks just trace it back to a single dude of importance whose further lineage can then be looked up. In Zen, for example, they just trace back to Bodhidharma for simplicity.

>>16979267
Catechesis is a meme, Christianity lost an esoteric tradition a long time ago. Everything can be looked up, everything is brought forth. Nothing needs to be hidden

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:52:22 2020 No.16979299 >>16979284 Are you a Vedantist?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:52:53 2020 No.16979301 >>16979191 >Christ Literally God >Mohammed Heard about it from literally God >Bhudda God, not God, both God and not God, neither God nor not God >Krishna Also literally God

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:54:21 2020 No.16979314 >>16979288 Because Christianity tore all rivalrous initiations out root and stem, and proclaimed one catholic (look up what this word means) faith.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:54:33 2020 No.16979317 >>16979297 >Christianity lost an esoteric tradition a long time ago I know but that's not the point, see >>16979162

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:55:25 2020 No.16979319 >>16979299 No I'm not >>16979301 Exactly, the sheer arrogance of ignoring or downplaying these lineages.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:55:28 2020 No.16979320

>>16979284
I think your ego is bigger than his, anon. You seem to be flaunting your knowledge and supposed superiority quite a bit. You don't know what anon's path is like, nor do you know if he needs a guru or not - it is one thing to advise, another thing to intimidate.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:56:05 2020 No.16979327

>>16979267
There isn't in the guenonian sense this board cares about, which is why Guenon became a Sufi Muslim. But of course, there are Christian monastic orders dedicated to askesis and contemplation; there is nothing quite for lay people, who are all already baptized

doubtposting !!0CYbMy7gCdH Tue Dec 8 15:56:28 2020 No.16979331
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>>16977446
>Guenon made the distinction between being “saved” (which is a lesser achievement he conceded could be reached purely through the exoteric participation in and fulfillment of Christianity), and on the other hand the attainment of the transcendent, gnosis, moksha.
What does this distinction consist in? Where does he talk about this?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:57:49 2020 No.16979337 >>16979327 >in the guenonian sense this board cares about Which matters why? As long as it provides a path to enlightenment/gnosis/henosis/whatever you want to call it, why does it matter if it doesn't have a "guenonian lineage"?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:58:35 2020 No.16979342 >>16979320 He said his practice included astral projection. Give me a break. I'm just trying to get someone onto one of the infinite genuine paths and stop them from wasting their time.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:59:25 2020 No.16979344 >>16979342 OBEs can lead to very valuable experiences, you know Just because they're all /x/ talks about lately doesn't mean they're worthless

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 15:59:33 2020 No.16979348 >>16979337 It matters in the hyperreal discourse of online guenonian hermeneutics. It may not matter to you if you are seeking a raft to cross a river and be done with it after the fact

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:00:26 2020 No.16979354 >>16979342 >one of the infinite genuine paths Could you list those you consider to be the most worthwhile to someone of European heritage? This is not a loaded question.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:01:33 2020 No.16979360 >>16979354 You already presuppose some sort of chthonic blood magic is necessary.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:02:18 2020 No.16979365

>>16979348
>if you are seeking a raft to cross a river
I am simply seeking a path to enlightenment, and expressing doubt towards the idea that the entirety of the Christian tradition has been somehow gutted from all mystical substance (but perhaps I am wrong)

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:03:06 2020 No.16979374 >>16977499 a few of the men have all of the kids. your argument does not follow.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:03:20 2020 No.16979376 >>16979360 I'm talking about my cultural upbringing, what are you talking about? Can't you just answer the question?

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:04:08 2020 No.16979388

>>16979342
If he can genuinely accomplish that, then he has experience with the subtle body. Certain techniques can lead to quick progression further along the path, starting from that basis. For a great many people the biggest roadblock is going beyond the material sense of reality.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:05:42 2020 No.16979399

>>16979354
Orthodox Christian monastic orders. The inner most Catholic monastic orders. There is still a christian esoteric current that is hidden. A westerner can initiate into other traditions outside of the west but it will be harder for them, just practically speaking.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:05:46 2020 No.16979400

>>16979365
>I am simply seeking a path to enlightenment, and expressing doubt towards the idea that the entirety of the Christian tradition has been somehow gutted from all mystical substance (but perhaps I am wrong)
Where do you see "mystical substance" in the Christian tradition? What does that even mean? If you want to use mystical ecstasy as your path towards enlightenment, you could do that on your lonesome as well.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:07:04 2020 No.16979409

>>16979365
If you are really committed to Christianity for your own reasons at this point I would recommend studying the lives of some of your saints. The trial of Joan of Arc is fully extant and we know more of her experiences than perhaps any other premodern person. Read her words and see what you think. Did she receive instruction from angels and saints or not? If so, was this not a form of initiation? What sort of conditions were associated with this initiation? Did she seek secluded places or follow certain behavioral practices conducive of contact with higher realities? Why did the Church not like this?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:08:01 2020 No.16979424 >>16979388 >Certain techniques Are they documented? >the biggest roadblock is going beyond the material sense of reality. I agree, but is that alone conducive to transcendence?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:08:08 2020 No.16979426 >>16979376 Are you a white American? Everything is available to you in your country. Everything.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:08:27 2020 No.16979429 >>16979388 True I've been too harsh in this thread. I got worked up over nothing. I just don't like the thought of people studying for years without any guidance.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:08:50 2020 No.16979433

>>16979331
>Where does he talk about this?
In ‘Man and His Becoming According to the Vedanta’, in the 19th chapter titled ‘Difference in the Post-Humous Conditions According to the Degree of Knowledge’

https://sufipathoflove.files.wordpress.com/2019/04/1925-man-and-his-becoming-according-to-the-vedc3a2nta.pdf

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:09:03 2020 No.16979436 >>16979426 No, I'm western European.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:10:04 2020 No.16979445

>>16979399
>There is still a christian esoteric current that is hidden
Not that I don't believe you, but what makes you sure of this?
>>16979400
I don't understand your post. There are many Christian mystics.
>you could do that on your lonesome as well.
Aren't you the one who said that initiation was essential, or am I talking to someone else?

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:10:44 2020 No.16979449

>>16975195
For practical reasons. Becoming a muslim allowed him to live a semi-normal life with a wife and kids while also being able to write, something that he couldn't really have done if he went into exile on Mt. Athos, for example. Other traditions like hinduism and buddhism were also closed (and still are to varying degrees) to outsiders at his time.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:11:50 2020 No.16979458

>>16979409
I'm committed to Christianity because it appeals to me very personally, and I think everyone would agree that this is the most important criterion when choosing a tradition to devote yourself to.
Are you recommending that I more or less base my own spiritual path on that of the saints' and see where it takes me?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:12:55 2020 No.16979467 >>16979429 >I just don't like the thought of people studying for years without any guidance. Don't you think it's possible to be guided without the guide necessarily being a guru in the strictest sense of the transmission of mind?

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:14:25 2020 No.16979482

>>16979424
>Are they documented?
The Hermetic texts have been translated and deciphered to a great standard and they follow a model of operative magic that only presupposes knowledge of the subtle body and in fact not even that, since the Black Work is meant to take you beyond that threshold. Evola wrote a detailed book on it.
>>16979429
That's fine. You should just try to consider that finding a teacher, put aside a good one, is exceedingly difficult today. Almost no one does this kind of thing anymore and the ones that do are New Age quacks looking for extra cash. The few proper teachers keep low profiles and are very difficult to find. Not everyone has the luxury of finding a teacher and you should proceed without one if that's all you can get.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:15:12 2020 No.16979489 >>16979433 based thanks

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:15:39 2020 No.16979492

>>16979445
>I don't understand your post. There are many Christian mystics.
There are, some of them successful and others less so. How is that relevant to you?
>Aren't you the one who said that initiation was essential, or am I talking to someone else?
I am another anon.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:17:00 2020 No.16979506

>>16979467
Yes, through the lesser mysteries, but then they will hit the wall and stagnate, this is what those groups like AMORC do, they can only get you this far. The chances of someone being able to initiate themselves into the higher mysteries without the transmission of mind is so slim that I would never encourage it. It's not about just knowing the right things.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:17:38 2020 No.16979511

>>16979436
Depending on your country then you may have variably more Muslims or Buddhists or Hindus or even Zoroastrians or neopagans, if you were looking for some sort of non-Christian community-based path. Ultimately those arriving at the truth are a sort of fraternity existing outside of their nations, religions, times, and places, who have to contend with those in order to express themselves. I wouldn't say that because you are Norwegian you need to be Lutheran but pretend to be Russian Orthodox online, or practice a revived Norse paganism constructed around an interpretatio graeci of Neoplatonist theurgy, but you could do those things. What matters is does it work for you? All language leaks meaning.

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:19:51 2020 No.16979527

>>16979429
I've lost track of how many instances of "this doctrine is not for stupid people" I've come across in Buddhist and also Platonist literature. Plato says it about the demiurge, Asanga says it about the alayavijñana. And I assume other religions say similiar. But there really is no helping some people in one lifetime, though through shitposting one can perhaps seed the proper thoughts in their matrix

Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:22:18 2020 No.16979546

>>16979458
What I mean is if you think there is something incompatible about merely attending religious services and listening to your priest you should look into the lives of others who felt the same way within a Christian context, if that context is what you feel committed to and you still feel it is lacking

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:22:48 2020 No.16979554 >>16979527 Yes, you are quite right.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 16:41:47 2020 No.16979710 >>16979506 Then are less and less people able to become enlightened as time goes on? Since there are fewer teachers, and you need a teacher to reach the truth...

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 17:03:48 2020 No.16979905 >>16977093 What's the currently alive tradition with metaphysics closest to that of gnostics?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 17:42:54 2020 No.16980268 >>16977926 >He was certainly no ordinary man. He was albeit perhaps more spiritually oriented and principled. He maintained as much until he died also. He was no maestro. His own words.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 17:42:58 2020 No.16980270 >>16978147 Holy... based

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 17:46:35 2020 No.16980291 Does anyone know good resources for kundalini awakening?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 18:12:22 2020 No.16980481 File: 14 KB, 236x298, CDCD2536-EB75-4CDF-8FA9-67AA83D7847D.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16980291 Join a Sufi order to know the “serpent” that enters through the base of the spine. Inshallah!

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 8 19:03:41 2020 No.16980831 >>16980291 if you want to experience the real thing viz. kundalini then you are better off going to India and learning from schools there which teach how instead of trying to self-learn from a book

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/lit/ - Literature