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/lit/ - Literature

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17093795 No.17093795 [Reply] [Original]

This guy comes up to your girl at the club and tells her that civilization was a mistake, that no one ever really can ever know anyone else and that we're all fundamentally alone in the universe, isolated and cut off from everyone else.

What do you do?

>> No.17093818
File: 29 KB, 220x330, 368236727.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17093818

>>17093795
Ask him what made him change his position from "consciousness was a tragic misstep in evolution" and "it would be best to cease reproducing," to "civilization was a mistake," which is actually a totally different point and never argued in this, his book.

>> No.17094215

>>17093818
he fully admits to only being able to write when he is in a manic state.

>> No.17094236

>>17094215
His anxiety is the worst I've ever heard of. Makes mine seem like a walk in the park.

>> No.17094993

>>17094236
kek
this is his one trait which makes him one of the greatest living authors.

>> No.17095032

>>17094215
same

>> No.17095170

>>17094993
It should be a requirement for all horror authors. They must have crippling anxiety.

>> No.17095181

>>17094993
Yep. Mental illness is what makes an author great. Any writer that lacks serious problems is going to be generic and soulless.
>>17093795
Bow before his superior intellect. He is my favorite author.

>> No.17095186

>>17095170
People say that Ligotti is the only worthwhile writer from this genre. Is it true?

>> No.17095221

>>17095181
People throw shit at him because of his ideas in conspiracy. Which is understandable but they they say shit like "haha he write like a 15 years old." This is such a fucking dishonest statement. Ligotti is a great stylist. For me he is up there with Kafka.

>> No.17095223

>>17095186
He's definitely one of the best. Not a single mediocre story in his collections. He's tight, concise, vivid and knows precisely when and where to cut. I wouldn't go so far to say that he's the only worthwhile author in horror, but he's definitely one of the best. If you want one great story to read, the Frolic, The Last Feast of Harlequin and Notes on the Writing of Horror: A Story. They're all great in that they seem formulaic and staid, until you get to a certain point and go in strange and interesting directions.

>> No.17095289

>>17095221
I thought conspiracy was great as a “contrivance of horror” as he says. Honestly I think there’s a difference between his persona and his actual beliefs but he’s very good at the transferring a sense of cosmic dread upon the reader

>> No.17095330

>>17095223
What is the most strangest story by ligotti?
I don't know but I would like to start from there.

>> No.17095358

>>17095221
>Which is understandable but they they say shit like "haha he write like a 15 years old."
Not really an opinion I encounter but if I did I would immediately think less of that person

>> No.17095367

>>17095330
Sect of the Idiot, then. It's his tribute to Lovecraft, but doesn't feature any of his monsters. Very 'in the style of' in a very fun and interesting way and the ending will stick with you. Totally weird. The Greater Festival of Masks, which is also very weird and involves masks, which is all I can remember unfortunately. Haven't read that in awhile. But of the two, definitely Sect of the Idiot.

>> No.17095374

>>17095367
Thank you anon

>> No.17095386

>>17095367
I'm going to read his fiction. I tried conspiracy but didn't get far into it

>> No.17095399

>>17095386
I haven't read any of his philosophy, but it's on my list. I'm not buying any more books until I'm done with the ones in my pile.

>> No.17095608

>>17095386
You should give conspiracy another chance. I mean it’s not a serious academic paper and he realizes his viewpoint is based purely from perspective so it can’t be provable in all cases but it’s a really good starting point for that style of pessimistic though and it’s also very engaging. I mean I know it’s pop philosophy now considering true detective and whatnot but still worth reading

>> No.17095630

>>17095608
I'm open to anti-naturalist arguments, I will give him another chance eventually

>> No.17095705

>>17095608
Why is pessimistic philosophy such a dud here? I mean, we're staring down the barrel of climate change, shit's going to be fucked by the time we're old. I can't imagine bringing another life into this world.

>> No.17095762

>>17095705
>Why is pessimistic philosophy such a dud here?
It's not, kinda 50/50. all the opposition to everything is just vulgar contrarianism and cristcucks are /pol/ refugees.
regular posters on 4chan are mentally fucked social outcast with very slim chances of raising healthy families.

>> No.17095839

>>17095705
i mean human's think the world is gonna end all the time why do they keep going? you'd have to change human perspective. and in order to do so you have to accept the axioms he offers and values he assigns to those concepts. most people argue with him on the basis of those axioms which he accepts as fact (life is MALIGNANTLY USELESS or all is suffering) the consequences of his line of thinking and all the philosophical questions it brings up are too dense metaphysically speaking to be solved so easily.

>> No.17095854

>>17095839
that being said I do agree with him but again I can't push the facts of my life onto the masses. the is/ought distinction still needs to be addressed. i do not feel comfortable advocating that other people shouldn't have children but I probably wont

>> No.17095855

he kinda looks like a turtle

>> No.17095873

>>17095839
>i mean human's think the world is gonna end all the time why do they keep going?
Difference is, this time we really are looking at a radically altered world, good or bad. I haven't read that much pessimistic philosophy, but I'm sure as hell pessimistic about our future. Do you really see the world's governments doing what needs to be done to halt the six degree change that we're looking at by 2070? If I had kids, they'd be in their fifties and with children of their own, god forbid. I dunno. It just feels to me like having a kid when you know a meteor is headed towards Earth. Like you're bringing a damned organism into being.

>> No.17095879

>>17095855
I wanna see thomas ligotti nibbling on a head of lettuce

>> No.17095905

>>17095873
yea man shits getting pretty wild and doesnt seem like the populations going to go down anytime soon. if you haven't i recommend reading the overstory by richard powers. sort of like an environmentally conscious pessimism. its definitely not horror but it does outline a lot of what you're saying

>> No.17095941

>>17095186
very, very far from the truth. in fact i'd question how well-read those people are in the genre.

>> No.17095952

>>17095941
how so?

>> No.17096033

>>17095905
The population is fine. We have the resources to feed everyone right now, we just don't have the distribution for that to happen. The amount of people isn't the problem, climate change is. There's seven companies that contribute 70% of all carbon dioxide released into the atmosphere, no one's going to do shit to stop them. You think the refugee crisis is bad now, wait until we have refugees from Florida, New York and New Orleans.

>> No.17096056

>>17095952
William Hope Hodgeson is good. Funner than Lovecraft

>> No.17096082

I'd recommend Simon Strantzas. Burnt Black Suns is terrific; the title story totally got to me. Great work.

>> No.17096418

>>17094236
>>17094993
I'd like to have a "Complete Works of Thomas Liggoti" or at least a "Complete FICTION of Thomas Liggoti". Unfortunatelly, is so hard gathering around all his material. Is so expensive.
I think we only might get something of the kind when he eventually die. Which is a shame.

>> No.17096443

>>17096418
I got super lucky and got a copy of Nightmare Factory in good condition from a Half Price Books for five bucks. Book is actually worth between 80-300 dollars.

>> No.17096515

>>17095873
>Like you're bringing a damned organism into being.
Aren't we all damned from the start?
I mean, we raised people from pre-death to where they returned afterwards all the time though the centuries.
Does the extinction of your lineage, a few generations ahead, in a still young age bother you that much?

>> No.17096534

>>17096443
>Book is actually worth between 80-300 dollars.
Lucky bastard. Kek

>> No.17096542

>>17096515
>Does the extinction of your lineage, a few generations ahead, in a still young age bother you that much?
It really does. I'm preventing a lot of suffering that would otherwise exist, by not breeding. Because I'm not going to breed, there won't be a handful more people to suffer and die due to the choices we failed to make in the present. It's not so much the extinction of my lineage, I really don't mind that, but the suffering that would be caused by my breeding. Does that make sense?

>> No.17096560

>>17095186
Robert Aickman is a little bit better.

>> No.17096573

>>17096443
Ligotti actually refined a lot of the stories from Grimscribe in the newer Penguin edition. Much of the phrasing and more were improved. I believe the ending of "The Mystics of Muelenburg" was revamped too.

>> No.17096616

>>17096542
I mean, you can argue this line but what I'm failing to see is how the presumably fatalistical climate changes have anything to do with your point.
The pointlessly of it all doesn't change an inch if the world gets hotter or not.
The "human problem" with existence and its ceasing wouldn't get magically and suddenly solved if we had found a solution to the species most immediate and poignant problems.
Do you understand?

>> No.17096624

>>17096542
yea if you truly subscribe to that view then yes it makes sense. but i think a lot of life is sort of a feedback loop of perception feeding into your actions in real life that again feed into your perception of reality. so if one was to simply say "no my life is good and i will breed more because the existence of a good is a good in itself" theres no way to counteract that without just saying "no life is bad and ending suffering is the only thing to consider, therefore we should end life" the problem is both of these are syllogism derived from reducing life down to single good/bad dichotomies which function as personal values. whereas the life affirming man would not say your decision to not breed is immoral you would say his decision to breed is immoral. that is what irks me about natalism. the presupposition that the other person is immoral and not understanding that reducibility to a single point (in your case suffering) is not how the world works. if you want to know more about the fallibility of reductive systems and syllogisms read Chaos by James Gleick. Its about the beginnings of Chaos Theory really interesting stuff.

again i agree that for me procreation is not worth it but I don't think I can understand other people enough to make that assumption on their behalf. thats always the problem I have i don't want to call others immoral for what seems to be such a complicated issue. even though i want to

>> No.17096643

>>17096624
fuck that came out like a word salad. what im trying to say is i can't bring myself to say that NO ONE should have kids. i can only speak for myself even though (i think) i have it figured out

>> No.17096788
File: 116 KB, 800x1005, John_Stuart_Mill_by_London_Stereoscopic_Company,_c1870.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17096788

>>17096643
>>17096542
The thing is:
You both are (probably) educated, conscious people. That is, precisely the ones who SHOULD breed if we were going to expect to change the Earth for the better. Can't you see?
It is YOU. Not the "it's-not-my-business", "I-don't-give-a-shit-for-my-children-male" who should eventually procreate with the females.
Also, your posts, amusingly enough, give me strong Mill utilitarian vibes. As if you were measuring existence and life numerically in order to see if it's all worth the trouble:
-Lemme see if my pleasure points supersedes my pain sadboy points.
-Oops, it seems like the existential equation turned out negative. I think I gotta quit life now.
Man, Holy Anglo!

"A vida não se justifica com palavras"
Morte e Vida Severina

>> No.17096852

>>17093795
Why are all doomer nihilst blackpill anti natalist whatever the fuck type people invariably dysgenic looking as fuck?

>> No.17096857

>>17096788
yea i see where you're coming from too. honestly i feel trapped between these two points and I can't reason myself either way. Like read this guys argument for antinatalism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Benatar#Implications_for_procreation..
and read this guys argument against it:
http://faculty.smu.edu/jkazez/articles/Benatar.htm

both are pretty convincing and it seems like the axioms themselves are just based on personal preference yet they both declare each other to be immoral. i find it the same as the abortion debate. one side says its immoral to kill babies and the other thinks its immoral to enslave women to childbirth and both have some fundamental notion of life that is neither provable nor disprovable.

>> No.17097390

bump

>> No.17098169

>>17096852
then please stop reading literature and start following models and celebrities because they are handsome.

>> No.17098174

>That absolute lack of chin

Shiiiiiet id be blackpilled like that too if it were me

>> No.17098240
File: 24 KB, 322x500, Cioran.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17098240

>>17098174
Cioran was also an antinatalist

>> No.17098243
File: 111 KB, 570x712, schopenhauer_.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17098243

>>17098174
Scho was also blackpilled

>> No.17099484

bump

>> No.17099490

>>17093795
>This guy comes up to your girl at the club and tells her that civilization was a mistake
Tell him to leave the club then

>> No.17100069

>>17099490

>> No.17100294

>>17093795
>lmao you have no chin while having multiple simultanously, are you an entertainment freak like all those naked midgets cycling around here?

>> No.17100315

>>17095186
Yes, unless you want to indulge in cheap pulpy scares or ((((atmosphere)))). Ligotti is the only one with something to say and all of his fiction is the exploration of his singular view.

>> No.17100372

>>17095367
All his tributes are good but very 'by the standard'.
>>17095330
This is almost impossible to answer, but i will try to list some:
Dr Voke Mr veech (this might take the cake)
Troubles of Dr. Thoss (best from Soadd)
Journal of JP Drapeau
Cocoons
The Medusa (my personal favorite)
Voice in the bones
Conversations in a dead language (his most sentimental)
The Tsalal (the most epic story in all his fiction)
Red tower
Teatro Grotesco

>> No.17100409

>>17100372
Oh shit, I forgot how strange Cocoons and Teatro Grotesco are. Solid recs.

>> No.17100414

>>17100372
What was the one with the guy that picked up hookers and made them drink flower juice? Was that Les Fleurs?

>> No.17100555

>>17100414
Yeah. Nothing burger compared to his later ones tho.

>> No.17100594

>>17100409
>>17095330
I too forgot one. 'Strange design of master rignolo' is pretty fucking weird.

>> No.17100604

>>17100372
>>17100409
>>17100594
Damn, thank you for the reccs anon

>> No.17100641

>>17100604
Mention not fren. If you want to talk about them after reading, please make a thread. I will love to share what I think of them, and surely others will too. I have had enough of Ligotti threads focused on his worst work (TCATHR, if it needs saying).

>> No.17100646

>>17100641
What makes Conspiracy his worst work?

>> No.17100706

>>17095186
Let's put it this way. The man probably has one of the most severe cases of anxiety that I've ever heard of. He takes that anxiety and puts it in your head. Even his more jokey, less serious stories have this all pervasive sense of dread and cosmic death. Like no hope exists and you were a fool for ever thinking that it did.

>> No.17100747

If you want some spooks but don't feel like reading, here's an excellent recording of one of his more 'light-hearted' stories: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Fteka44kbY

>> No.17100765

>>17100646
His non-fiction writing isn't very engaging and he is only retreading on everything he has explored through his fiction, but in a drier, more straightforward manner.

>> No.17100817

>>17100706
The guy has anhedonia; he can't feel any kind of pleasure at all, now pair this with literary talent and you have an extremely unique voice. For me personally, Ligotti is the pretty much the GOAT horror writer and one of the greatest short story writers; simply because his horror comes from a truer place, as does his fiction.

>> No.17100844

>>17100765
I think Ligotti made a really bold move by publishing Conspiracy. And it is affecting his legacy. I respect him for doing that. All of the Schopenhauerian authors believed in the pessimism but they were too reluctant to admit that straight forwardly because of their literary legacy.
But sadly Ligotti will be remembered for Conspiracy and less for his fiction. There is nothing wrong with it but it undermines his literary greatness of fiction.

>> No.17100880

>>17100817
>anhedonia; he can't feel any kind of pleasure at all
Jesus

>> No.17100887

>>17100844
I totally understand that, his fiction can be pretty opaque for the casual reader. Conspiracy is a good marketing choice imo, it throws a bone to people who might discover and may come to like his fictive works.

>> No.17100921

>>17100844
I don't think Conspiracy will over-shadow his short stories, I don't think anything could. The truest tragedy is that none of his stories are filmable in the least bit, so he'll never see serious money out of his writing. The best he can do is branch out, you know? And by giving us a view to his idiosyncratic worldview, he's giving us a glimpse of true horror, which is his every day life. I mean, it's not like someone as debilitated as him can work a 9-5, you know?

>> No.17100997

>>17100921
>I mean, it's not like someone as debilitated as him can work a 9-5, you know?
I have read his interview in which he said that when he wrote corporate horror stories his colleagues complained to their boss that Ligotti has a character in his stories which initiates brutal violence on his colleagues so they were afraid of Ligotti. He enjoyed whole situation.
Kek

>> No.17101013

>>17100997
Funny story, but man am I tired of seriously sick people being made out to be dangerous. Guy's as harmless as a fly.

>> No.17101030

>>17101013
You underestimate society, friendo.

>> No.17101045

>>17101030
Underestimating society, in a thread about one of the greatest pessimists of all time? Perish the thought.

>> No.17101135

>>17100921
>The truest tragedy is that none of his stories are filmable in the least bit, so he'll never see serious money out of his writing
Making a short film of The Shadow at the Bottom of the World in the film school was on my list. But on day I went to city to submit my admission form I suffered from several panic attacks and ran back home as soon as I saw the city's huge highway.

>> No.17101150

>>17095223
I've read CATHR before (because of true detective) but never delved into his short stories so I decided to just google him and found The Frolic in a pdf format. It's very good thanks for the rec. The part with the child head sculpture was truly fucked.

>> No.17101193

>>17101150
I love how totally formulaic and 'camp fire story' the first half is, before it goes completely off the rails in a way that only Ligotti could do.
>>17101135
Shadow at the Bottom of the World would be possible, but I don't know how you'd get the atmosphere right, or communicate that level of world-ending dread that the story's got going on.

>> No.17101253

>>17101193
Yes, I was naive to think that I could handle the heavy atmosphere. But that was long ago.

>> No.17101342

>>17101253
I'm sure you did your best, anon. Sorry about the panic attacks. I used to get them real bad, I know how much they suck the life out of you.

>> No.17101807

>>17094215
>>17094236
Where does he talk about that stuff?

>> No.17101822

>>17101807
This interview: https://www.ligotti.net/showthread.php?t=8726

>> No.17101834

>>17101822
https://www.teemingbrain.com/interviews/interview-with-thomas-ligotti/ This interview is also very good and goes into how hard it is for him to write.

>> No.17102048

>>17101834
i always get the feeling from reading his interviews that he had a tough life but he comes off as a decent guy all in all. not what you'd expect from someone who writes what he writes

>> No.17102258

I love Ligotti's sense of humor in conspiracy. I haven't read any of his other books but I definitely want to check them out.

>> No.17103042

>>17102258
If you like his sense of humor, check out The Town Manager.

>> No.17103053

>>17103042
thanks. will do. it'll be the next book I read.

>> No.17103070

>>17093795
it's honestly amazing how all you need to know about his philosophy can be summed up by this picture of him. he looks like a fucking bug or a worm, you just want to squash him and put him out of his misery and then go about your objectively superior life.

>> No.17103231

>>17103070
Post your picture with timestamp

>> No.17103360

>>17103070
If he's such a bug or a worm why does his philosophy scare you so much ?

>> No.17103400

>>17095186
He doesn't write horror; he writes weird fiction.

>> No.17103402

>What no pussy does to a nigga

>> No.17103423

It took me a while to warm up to Ligotti, but once I realized it's mostly about the build up with him I really started enjoying hist stuff. Also, despite believing the entire human population should die, he believes the number one priority of fiction is to entertain and that's super based.

>> No.17103689

>>17103070
go back to >>>/tv/ or >>>/fa/ then, they worship bodily beauty above anything else.

>> No.17103761

>>17101822
>>17101834
ty

>> No.17104108

>>17103231
No.

>> No.17104426

All of his arguments make sense if you start with the assumption that nothing beyond the material world exists, but he puts almost no effort into arguing that this is the case. In The Conspiracy he basically just said "religion is absurd" and that was his whole argument. Because of this, his philosophy is only relevant to naturalists and it is not a holistic system.

>> No.17104430

>>17093795
put his fat cock in my mouth and slurp down his magnificent seed and then ask for an autograph

>> No.17104606

>>17095223
the frolic. it kills me it's such a good take on a hyperintelligent child murderer

>> No.17104644

>>17095952
if you seriously have to ask this asinine question then it's not worth my time to answer it. go to google, look up good horror authors, and do your own research.

>> No.17105780

>>17104430
not fanny

>> No.17106653

>>17096857
>and read this guys argument against it:

He doesn't make any arguments against it. It's just hollow rhetoric. The only thing of substance to take away from that """rebuttal""" is that the author did not read the material they claim to disagree with.