Augustine dunks so unbelievably hard on Pagan retards

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Augustine dunks so unbelievably hard on Pagan retards Anonymous Tue Feb 2 21:32:05 2021 No.17445023 [Reply] [Original]

/lit, if you haven't read Augustine's City of God, you are missing out on the ultimate historical dunk against absolutely brain-dead pagan stupidity. Page after page is full of literal humiliation doled out to that worm-eaten facsimile of theology, from their own vantage. Check it out.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 21:35:39 2021 No.17445042 Let us build a city of god! May our tears be turned into dancing (oh-wo-ha) For the Lord our light and our love— Has turned the night into day!

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 21:38:13 2021 No.17445065 >>17445042 Based, had to sing this in church as a kid

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:16:36 2021 No.17445343 File: 7 KB, 207x249, 1580328866674.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >your god is made up >but not mine

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:18:29 2021 No.17445360 >>17445343 Pleb-take. The criticism is issued from their own standards. Read it and weep.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:19:37 2021 No.17445369 >>17445360 >Believe my made up god because I saw so! They didn't stop them from destroying the roman empire, you fag

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:21:16 2021 No.17445378 >>17445023 Augustine on paganism is the equivalent of Sam Harris on Christianty.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:21:27 2021 No.17445379 >>17445360 What did he take issue with? Didn't the pagans believe that Dionsyus, the wine god and son of Zeus, was killed and came back to life? Was his fanfiction better?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:22:39 2021 No.17445392 >>17445343 >>17445360 Yeah lol... even atheistic materialists countenance a hierarchy of religious thought

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:23:58 2021 No.17445403 >>17445378 oof, actually true. small/developing minds ive noticed are attracted to augustine like flies on shit

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:29:35 2021 No.17445440

>>17445379

That the pagan gods deserve any kind of admiration, respect, honors, worship, etc. Their worship is basically "appeasement" and even the Romans understood as much. They wouldn't even allow the actors of the theatres to participate in honorable society; and these were the theatres enacting the commanded performances that were meant to honor the gods! Unbelievable.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:30:57 2021 No.17445447 >>17445378 Nice try. Good luck managing the cognitive dissonance of worshipping something that you yourself despise.

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:33:40 2021 No.17445471

>>17445440
That's like hating something because of its fandom. Moreover the pagan philosophers did not consider the poetic depictions of the gods as befitting them, going back to Plato. By Augustine's logic one should swear off Christianity because of unclean tradzooms.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:34:14 2021 No.17445473 >>17445023 I’m not going to read it all. Which books are important for someone who is tracing the history of political thought?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:34:49 2021 No.17445477 >>17445378 Lol this

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:36:00 2021 No.17445484 >>17445447 kek, don't christians hypostasize everything they don't like about God as Satan? who you fooling?

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:37:08 2021 No.17445489

>>17445440
>Their worship is basically "appeasement" and even the Romans understood as much
No, it was more akin to forcing the gods to act on behalf of the ritualist. One could consider this appeasement in some sense, but it wasn't like not performing rituals would necessarily incite the wrath of the gods.

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:45:19 2021 No.17445541

>>17445471

Augustine deals directly with the "pagan philosophers" like Varro. Their own position is a pale endorsement, and there's a lot of maneuvering to try to distinguish what the "poets" have produced and what the state has endorsed: but the difference amounts to nothing. And even if you dismiss the improper "depictions" and stick with the "core view," you are still left with a characterization of the gods that is either ridiculous on its own terms, confused on its own terms (who are higher gods, who are lower? why is the male/female division of the gods so stringently articulated but then immediately smudged all over?), and demeaning to them (Jupiter is the king but so many other gods can thwart him; and if they can't thwart him they don't actually serve the roles they do; the prime example is the goddess Felicity). And on and on.

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:51:49 2021 No.17445584

>>17445484

What does "hypostasizing" have to do with it? Christians don't worship satan; he's despicable. The pagan gods are universally one of: despicable, unimportant. Jupiter is a mob-boss. Saturn ate his children. Others require their followers to cut their own dicks off. How is that admirable at all, in any shape or form? The better Romans themselves admit they "worship" the gods just out of respect for the others around them that worship them, and probably to not get in trouble. No serious person would sign up for that shit.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:52:48 2021 No.17445592 >>17445541 >too many made up gods messing with each other >only my father should be god, and sometimes his son who is also him

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:53:05 2021 No.17445593
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>>17445023
Christians were the Antifa/BLM of their time. Jewish nihilist terrorists who destroyed a superior civilization. Anti-Aryan, anti-human garbage. Feed them to lions!

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:53:08 2021 No.17445594 >>17445584 lmao bro wait til you read the OT. is dis nigga serious?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:55:14 2021 No.17445602 >>17445584 Homer-Simpson-vengeful-God-loving-God.webm

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:55:24 2021 No.17445604

>>17445489

So it's even worse? The "worshippers" are feigning worship to try to trick the gods of all things into doing something for them? Or do the gods just agree to do it because they get a kick out of the stupid ritual? Can you imagine the absolute goober-tier theology you are proposing here? You are suggesting the gods are either morons, because so easily duped into favors for the unrighteous; or cheap dates, willing to trade favors for a trick?

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:55:56 2021 No.17445608

>>17445584
>No serious person would sign up for that shit.
Romans let fools suffer the consequences of their folly. They allowed all kinds of cults. Even human sacrifice! as long as the cult only killed their own.

Patrician Romans knew that shit was all made up. Christianity did not replace a religion that required belief like it did. Killing over beliefs is a Yahweh thing. Romans killed Christian *terrorists.*

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:56:05 2021 No.17445610

>>17445541
The problem you have is that you think issues of the divine can be resolved through pure reason. This is just fundamentally flawed, as Kant eventually pointed out. Pagan wisdom comes from direct experience and alterations of state, and is usually mixed with exoteric customs which causes a confusing appearance. Most of the esoteric doctrines available were not available to Augustine, and would not have been understandable by him even if they were because they are not dependent upon reason.
>>17445584
>Christians don't worship satan; he's despicable.
Satan exists and God caused him to exist as the first cause. Ergo, Satan is a product of God.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:57:04 2021 No.17445614 >>17445584 the icky parts of God's creation you call Satan. privatio boni isn't a real solution to the problem of evil

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:57:09 2021 No.17445617

>>17445604
>The "worshippers" are feigning worship to try to trick the gods of all things into doing something for them?
They are not worshippers to begin with, your entire conception of paganism is wrong. Paganism is superior to Christianity because they don't necessarily worship anything, it would only be the slave castes who legitimately worship rather than act as equals with the gods.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:57:26 2021 No.17445618 >>17445604 >goober-tier theology the absolute state of (You)r implied implications. Theology's all goober-tier. Always has been.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:57:47 2021 No.17445619 >>17445593 >Christians were the Antifa/BLM of their time how can that be? I thought christians and the roman state were opposed to each other?

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:58:22 2021 No.17445628

>>17445593

Addressing that charge is half of Augustine's task. The idea that Rome fell (or, in the Augustine is addressing, that it was attacked and found vulnerable) because of the Christians is laughable, even from the standpoint of the Roman intellectuals. He establishes fairly easily that the Roman intellectuals themselves wrote off the possibility of Rome remaining a coherent whole long before Christ was born.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 22:58:27 2021 No.17445630 >>17445617 Based. Christianity and its offshoots, including wokism, are a goddamn plague.

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:00:42 2021 No.17445643
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>>17445617
>it would only be the slave castes who legitimately worship rather than act as equals with the gods.

Imagine believing this horseshit. Take your Nietzsche reader back to the store and stick to your magic-the-gathering neckbeard circle.

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:01:50 2021 No.17445649

>>17445584
>he's despicable
christianity is fascinating. it's simultaneously able to be monotheist (there is one good [who is actually three ! whoa!]), dualistic (god vs satan, good vs evil), and polytheistic (communion of saints, virgin mary). it's marvelous stuff

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:02:05 2021 No.17445650 >>17445619 cute >>17445628 yeah because assimilating a bunch of shitskins gives you things like Christianity

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:02:22 2021 No.17445653 >>17445618 More pleb-takes. Imagine thinking that monotheism and, more directly, Christianity, is not a completely elevated intellectual position over "muh Jupiter."

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:03:06 2021 No.17445657 >>17445649 It's Zoroastrian, Buddhist, and Jewish. Every fucking religion at once

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:04:07 2021 No.17445667 >>17445649 Unbelievable pleb outpouring! None of your "additional" examples is God, or even comparable, so your "dualism" isn't dual, and your "poly" isn't poly.

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:06:19 2021 No.17445682

>>17445643
>Take your Nietzsche reader back to the store and stick to your magic-the-gathering neckbeard circle.
I'm not a Nietzschean. It's historical fact, which extends beyond Rome and Greece, that man was potentially superior to the gods, and at least their equal. It's also historical fact that the slave castes of Rome, India, Greece, etc., tended to worship, in the strict sense, feminine and fertility deities, whereas the upper castes perceived fraternal relationships between the masculine, warrior gods.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:06:34 2021 No.17445684 >>17445657 i'd say buddhism dips into polytheism too with all those different buddhas and bodhisattvas. people pray to them for rain and shit

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:06:48 2021 No.17445687

>>17445653
There's nothing elevated about your plebeian religion of butthurt and nihilism. Christianity hates beauty, strength, sex, money, even food. Think of all the Aryan lives wasted! All the strong men who had no children because they died in idiotic schizo wars or went volcel! Christianity is a suicide cult that might have destroyed our race forever. It is a catastrophe unmatched in history.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:09:14 2021 No.17445706 >>17445684 Buddhism admits the existence of Hindu gods, of course it is. Although in this case I think the term is "qualified monism."

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:09:15 2021 No.17445707 File: 5 KB, 259x195, skeptical.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>17445687 > Christianity is a suicide cult that might have destroyed our race forever. Are you out of your fucking mind?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:10:02 2021 No.17445711 >>17445617 >they don't necessarily worship anything But man does necessarily worship something. I wonder, if not God, then what? Maybe wealth, or sex, or some other trifle? Superior, no doubt....

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:10:31 2021 No.17445714 >>17445711 >projection

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:11:16 2021 No.17445722 >>17445707 >All those deaths for an imagination with no evidence

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:11:39 2021 No.17445725 >>17445707 I'm the guy without imaginary friends you sucker of Jewish cock

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:11:47 2021 No.17445727 >>17445682 >I'm not a Nietzschean. It's historical fact, which extends beyond Rome and Greece, that man was potentially superior to the gods, and at least their equal. How many fucking cats do you own, lady?

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Tue Feb 2 23:12:31 2021 No.17445733 >>17445707 He goes an inch too far, but not by much.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:12:40 2021 No.17445735 >>17445711 Why do you need to worship anything? Why can't you just like something?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:13:19 2021 No.17445745 >>17445725 You and the rest of the /pol crew should read it. He dunks unbelievably hard on the jews, too.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:14:08 2021 No.17445752 >>17445727 What the fuck are you talking about?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:15:07 2021 No.17445760 >>17445735 He's upset because without god there won't be pictures of gothic cathedrals with old quotes on them for him to retweet whenever he feels threatened by changes set in motion centuries ago.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:15:16 2021 No.17445761 >>17445745 Yeah and Ben Shapiro owns the libs. It's a Jewish caduceus Anon-kun. If anything the Jews are the better side--they have food reason to despise their Christian dupes. >>17445733 I have not gone nearly far enough, lovely.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:16:16 2021 No.17445774 >>17445761 *good reason

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:17:24 2021 No.17445783

>>17445735

It isn't about "worship" per se. It's about what kinds of things you could even plausibly worship. If you think something is despicable, or crooked, or confused, etc. you probably couldn't even entertain the idea of worshipping it. So "liking" something (in a disinterested sense) is probably a precondition for being able to worship something; but there's nothing even "likable" about the pagan gods, conceptually.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:18:25 2021 No.17445791 >>17445760 Roman and English architecture is superior anyways.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:18:33 2021 No.17445794 >>17445706 It admits them in the sense that Muslims admit Christians are people of the book. As in, you can have your toys because they're not totally wrong but you shouldn't be encouraged

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:18:56 2021 No.17445799 >>17445761 You are so fucking spun-around from reality with this "Christianity is jews" koolaid. Read Augustine tell me if he's in cahoots with dajooz.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:19:16 2021 No.17445801 >>17445783 >but there's nothing even "likable" about the pagan gods, conceptually. Are you retarded or just this brainwashed by Christian dogma?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:19:25 2021 No.17445803 >>17445783 Oh fuck off. The pagan gods are likable as all hell. Zeus being a horndog is less likable to you than...Yahweh? I've got a question, do you LIKE books?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:20:27 2021 No.17445814 >>17445799 >tell me if he's in cahoots with dajooz He worships their fucking god

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:23:37 2021 No.17445837

>>17445783
That the pagan gods sometimes mess up and fail, yet continue to be so powerful, serves as an imagination which demonstrates to most the great potential they have, and makes improvement mmore exciting, acting as a motivation. A perfect god seems alien to most men. A god that messes up and makes errors every now and then is relatable, and because of that, likeable, because you can then imagine yourself in that position of power. It is no coincidence that men were lifted up to godhood and worshipped in some pagan religions.
TLDR: Pagan gods were created the way they were for the same reason the MC in most animes were created the way they were.

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:24:13 2021 No.17445846

>>17445799
Dude. Where did the Jews rise? Where did they get rich? Christian. Fucking. Europe. The Church's anti-Semitism funnelled peasant resentment against the Jews into...more Jew-worship. It's brilliant in its way. Oh, and remember--Jews are a religion now! Sprinkle some water and their race disappears! What a scam.

Jesus fuck I bet you watch PragerU.

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:24:36 2021 No.17445848
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I have an actual good-faith question here for the tradzooms. If we acknowledge that 1. you find modernity to be repulsive and the pop-atheism you grew up along with it (for older people the atheism was actually debated, not just taken for granted) and 2. You consider Christianity to a corrective return to tradition contra 1., then why even bother with Christian arguments against pagan theology? Once you argue against any theology you undermine the whole of theology and this much should be obvious in a secular society in which atheism has won the public debate. There is no argument you make against dead pagans or neo-pagans that would not be immediately aimed at you by a third party, a party that is the majority for that matter.

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:25:01 2021 No.17445850

>>17445814

So do the pagans! More than one pagan "philosopher" has spun a version on which Jupiter himself is in fact the one true god, and the rest are just aspects or names of his capacities. Augustine points out the problems with squaring this version internally, but nevertheless there was already a push in pre-Christian pagan thought that something had gone bonkers, that the "images" of gods were polluting peoples minds, and that unity under one god was preferably conceptually.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:25:14 2021 No.17445852 >>17445837 >Pagan gods were created the way they were for the same reason the MC in most animes were created the way they were. This nigga gets it

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:25:25 2021 No.17445853 File: 1.83 MB, 200x200, 1385538736271.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>17445837 >TLDR: Pagan gods were created the way they were for the same reason the MC in most animes were created the way they were.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:25:45 2021 No.17445857 >>17445801 The OG Christians really seemed to like Dionysus, I mean Jesus.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:26:16 2021 No.17445859 >>17445850 >Jupiter is not Yahweh

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:27:24 2021 No.17445867 File: 24 KB, 324x500, 41OK3k4uO9L.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Another book on the original Holy Hoax.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:28:25 2021 No.17445881 >>17445837 >is relatable, Imagine wanting to be able to 'relate' to God. Is this a fucking Joan Osborne song? Any respectable conception of God is so far detached from anything in this world; and to imagine that you want to "relate"!

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:29:40 2021 No.17445889 just dropping by to say religion is a fairy tale

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:29:46 2021 No.17445890 >>17445881 >respectable >detached from anything in this world Uhhh you got a problem with the world bro? >this world lmao the arrogance. where else u been nigga

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:29:53 2021 No.17445893

>>17445850
For the neoplatonists the icons of gods were no different from consecrated temples (or hieroglyphs). They are not the deity itself but a dwelling place. It is the Christians, taking their cue from the OT, who are initially obsessed with smashing idols before coming to terms with needing a visual representation of Jesus to appeal to civilized urban people. They also conveniently give every large enough city a saint. Go figure.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:30:40 2021 No.17445898 >>17445889 something cannot come from nothing though

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:31:18 2021 No.17445902 >>17445898 don't need religion to have god

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:31:24 2021 No.17445903 >>17445881 >Any respectable conception of God is so far detached from anything in this world; The Christian shows his true face yet again

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:31:46 2021 No.17445906

>>17445848
Really, it is over for them. When you can't even convince people that god exists, nevermind all of it's technicalities, then what hope do you have of convincing people that Noah made an ark, or that the seas were parted, or that women were made from the rib of a man? Modern Christians like Christianity only stylistically, since it has an aura of profundity because of it's long history, self-seriousness, and heavy symbolism.

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:31:57 2021 No.17445909

>>17445859

There isn't a conceptual pin that would pick out "yawheh" as opposed to "jupiter" in any conception of God originating in actual thought and not imaginary narrative. The trend in theology is towards monotheism, even in the pagan universe. It's puzzling if you think there's sufficient clarity to call the target of one "yahweh" to the exclusion of "jupiter."

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:31:58 2021 No.17445910 >>17445898 Weird because that's exactly what God does, he creates ex nihilo. Hmmm

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:32:48 2021 No.17445915 >>17445910 So you agree there is a God? thank you :)

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:33:04 2021 No.17445918 >>17445857 > The OG Christians really seemed to like Dionysus, I mean Jesus. Because "wine"?? Are you kidding me? Look at the shit Dionysus gets up to and tell me that's "just like Jesus." You clown.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:33:32 2021 No.17445920 >>17445915 No because you just said something cannot come from nothing. But here we have a flagrant violation of this.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:35:08 2021 No.17445930 >>17445920 Philosophically (and materially) speaking, God isn't a "something". Thanks for playing :))

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:35:27 2021 No.17445932
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>>17445918
>god's son
>gets his body torn apart by the Titans, who descend into manhood for their transgression against god
>dioynsus is reborn as the harvest god who redeems men

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:35:59 2021 No.17445936 File: 48 KB, 674x600, dangerfield.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>17445920 >No because you just said something cannot come from nothing I'm glad I'm not the only one who has to field these absolute morons.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:36:50 2021 No.17445939 >>17445930 >god's existence cannot be provided >there I proved his existence Absolute state of tradzooms who googled apophatic theology but forgot what it was called

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:36:55 2021 No.17445940

>>17445881
And here we reach the crux of the difference between the Christian religion and the pagan religions. One is a motivator which excites people to suceed in their efforts, the other is a complete tranquilizer which casts the only verifiable reality as trash completely demotivating all desire to persevere in the shadow of an unverifiable unknown world in which "god" (aka the church) hold the metaphorical chastity key to your behavioural cuck cage that you follow out of fear. Well, at least you aren't a buddhist.

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:37:29 2021 No.17445947

>>17445932
that's really reaching. at best you have the idea that dionysus is tied to wine. perhaps if Jesus came about in 400-500 BC when the cult of dionysus came around you would have a point; but the historical Christ's arrival doesn't mesh with the hypothesis

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:37:48 2021 No.17445949 >>17445910 Theologians create God from nothing, that's more impressive

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:38:14 2021 No.17445952 File: 74 KB, 526x567, 1599834123497.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>17445940 Keep at it, Timmy.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:38:29 2021 No.17445953 File: 85 KB, 680x453, 1581571909747.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>17445936 There are good arguments for god. What is happening in this thread are good arguments against him

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:39:14 2021 No.17445959 >>17445898 That implies the world was created.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:39:39 2021 No.17445962 >>17445939 just look up aquinas bro lol >>17445936 God isn't a something; He is not a "creature". Aquinas literally blew this argument out over a thousand years ago and you have the gall to pretend he didn't. Shameful!

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:39:49 2021 No.17445964 >>17445947 Are you missing the part where the son of god is killed by the ancestors of men but he then comes back to life... like... to redeem them? Is that not clear? Because it's very clear to me.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:40:40 2021 No.17445969 >>17445953 Eternal regress is not compatible with God.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:40:55 2021 No.17445970 >>17445962 >aquinas >not defrocked by Kantacharya and banished by Sri Schopenhauer. Look mom I did it I'm a refutionist

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:42:12 2021 No.17445977

>>17445953

This doesn't have anything to do with arguments for or against the existence of any gods. It has to do with the internal coherence of the pagan's view. Augustine isn't trying to argue that the pagan gods don't exist (in fact, he thinks they do, and are just demons tricking people). It's simply that the pagan view itself is so utterly incoherent that by its own standards it fails, just as the Romans themselves, by their own moral standards presumably inspired by their theology, treat those who perform divine rights as outcasts, because the rights themselves are deplorable!

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:42:32 2021 No.17445978

>>17445969
Yes it is. Eternal regress just means the first cause argument, along common metaphysical lines, doesn't hold up. It doesn't mean God is not the basis for the existence of causality (even if it regresses infinitely) to begin with. Space and time.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:42:52 2021 No.17445979 >>17445915 Everytime someone throws there god at me, I'll create a god god, that is, a god who created that god. My god makes your god a bitch and cucks him into being his mutt which obediently follows his rules like the sissy he is.

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:43:08 2021 No.17445980

>>17445909
>conception of God originating in actual thought and not imaginary narrative.
Ain't no such thing, my guy. You worship the Jewish racial soul as the ultimate reality. Your deepest wish is for the great David Lee Roth in the sky to say "all right!" when you die. The cuckery is infinite, no superlative could capture how pathetic your state is.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:43:30 2021 No.17445983 >>17445962 You (you)'ed me but I don't know what your point is. I greentext'd a retarded response to someone else.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:43:36 2021 No.17445985 >>17445969 I'm not going to argue for god ITT. I'm just impressed tradzooms think they can dunk on pre-Christian theology and not have themselves buggered by their own arguments against god.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:43:54 2021 No.17445989 >>17445952 who is Timmy

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:44:07 2021 No.17445991

>>17445964
Yes? And? Did Dionysus promise a general resurrection of all man-kind? Charge man to preach the gospel around the world? Put to death by his own people for implying that he was the promised Messiah? There's enough to the narrative that certain bare similarities are just superficial. Where is the historical Dionysus?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:44:31 2021 No.17445992 >>17445964 Wow you have just completely circumscribed the conception of Christ by pointing out one irrelevant similarity in outcome to some other guy who is literally a degenerate.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:44:55 2021 No.17445993 >>17445979 Worked for (((them)))

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:45:53 2021 No.17446001

>>17445714
>>17445735
>Why do you need to worship anything?
Because you do things in life for the sake of other things and and all of those things lead up to one final thing which you give ultimate worth to. (Worship - to give worth to) If it isn't God (or to make it easier, "The Good") then what is it?

>>17445760
>for him to retweet
He thinks I have a twitter. Sounds like you browse twitter actually.
>whenever he feels threatened by changes set in motion centuries ago.
Why does the framework of modern moral and societal degradation have anything to do with me pointing out that man always has a master?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:46:19 2021 No.17446002 File: 268 KB, 511x343, ayyy.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>17445980 >You worship the Jewish racial soul

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:46:39 2021 No.17446005

>>17445978
No it does not. Eternal regress means that Time is infinite and even God is bound to it. The entire point of the "Ex nihilo" argument is that God is supreme to all creation; even Time itself.

Perhaps, for Deism that may be a working argument, but not for traditional monotheism.

>>17445979
ok schizo

>>17445985
sounds like you're attacking a straw-man

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:46:57 2021 No.17446008 >>17445023 imagine being this invested in thousand year old polemics. try actually reading some of these 'pagan' texts for yourself instead of letting someone else's self justificatory thinking process make up your mind for you

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:47:29 2021 No.17446011 >>17445940 >One is a motivator which excites people to suceed in their efforts >a motivator Motivate to do what exactly? Anything you want?

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:47:38 2021 No.17446012

>>17445977
What does Christianity solve in pagan theology? That there are too many gods? That some of them are mean? Is he some sort of Alinskyite saying "these are your rules and I don't think you're following them"? Too bad he is also a theologian, and not one argument against non-Christian gods is exempt from being turned on him. His own god is a pretty mean and capricious character, a world destroyer, a genocider, a torturer, a game warden. I guess there is thankfully just one of him!

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:49:02 2021 No.17446020 >>17446008 Oh I guess you learned that in "woke" bible college?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:49:03 2021 No.17446021 >>17445991 If you need a real person to have your made up beliefs validated you can identify Orpheus with the Dionysus cults.

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:49:10 2021 No.17446023

>>17446001
The word worship generally expresses more than just liking something. That I like girls sitting on my face doesn't mean I worship girls sitting on my face. Worship generally is liking something but also holding deep reverence towards it at the same time.

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:49:31 2021 No.17446024

>>17446005
>Eternal regress means that Time is infinite and even God is bound to it.
No it doesn't. Eternal regress does not refer to a cosmological origin, we're talking about causality on a moment-by-moment basis. The existence of causality in the phenomenal world is also only an appearance, it cannot be applied to reality as it is.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:50:06 2021 No.17446028 >>17445992 It's not totally irrelevant that the same narrative was adopted almost unchanged but with the Old Testament and some good anarcho-millennarian anti-Romanism appended.

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:50:40 2021 No.17446036

>>17446008
I did read the pagan texts actually; good poetics but not very strong religious stuff. The entire Hellenistic era were philosophers poking holes in the entire Greek theological edifice. Regardless of how you feel about Christianity; it certainly did address a growing hole in the old paganism and the new philosophy - if not immediately.

I find it very difficult to read Greek texts and not see their sporadic insistence of Zeus as the ultimate god as a cry for a pseudo-monotheism.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:50:41 2021 No.17446037 >>17446011 Read my previous comment on the likability of pagan gods being comparable to anime MCs.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:51:20 2021 No.17446041 >>17446001 >man always has a master Correct. The abattoir he builds himself every day. No need to worship this!

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:52:50 2021 No.17446046 >>17446041 Do not cattle feast at the dining table of their brother?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:52:54 2021 No.17446048 >>17446005 My "G"od is supreme to the creation of your 'g'od [cucked lowercase g]. He is not only ontologically superior, but even created your god to be his little cumslut. How does it feel to be transcendentally cucked?

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:53:12 2021 No.17446050

>>17446005
>sounds like you're attacking a straw-man
It's quite simple. Neo-christians are using arguments against neo-pagans that simply work on any theology in the absence of a central despotic priestly authority to determine orthodoxy, or rather that authority is presently secular atheism, which reduces this whole question of dunking to two bald men fighting over a comb.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:53:14 2021 No.17446051 >>17445593 This is quite true.

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:54:06 2021 No.17446054

>>17446012

> What does Christianity solve in pagan theology? That there are too many gods?

Yes, there are too many (conceptually).

> That some of them are mean?

Why would God be "mean"? That's a strange conception of something that purportedly created everything, including kind people.

> Is he some sort of Alinskyite saying "these are your rules and I don't think you're following them"?

No, it's that Rome was already bankrupt by the time the Christians arrived and its vulnerabilities had nothing to do with Romans "abandoning" their traditional worship.

> Too bad he is also a theologian, and not one argument against non-Christian gods is exempt from being turned on him.

Except it is, if the argument involves fundamental metaphysical distinctions like, for example, thinking their are many gods instead of one.

> His own god is a pretty mean and capricious character, a world destroyer, a genocider, a torturer, a game warden.

"Mean" is the wrong word; Augustine thinks that bad things happen and the reasons are only ever known to God. You might think that's a cop-out, but it's better than thinking God intentionally wants to harm good people. How could a God who created so many kind and beautiful things also be cruel?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:54:14 2021 No.17446055 File: 573 KB, 680x797, 1605566733929.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>17446008 Yall need Proclus

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:54:53 2021 No.17446058 >>17446020 i have no idea what you are trying to say

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:54:59 2021 No.17446061

>>17446021
you've yet to address how superficial the comparison is. historicity is a major point in Christianity's favor; but the apostles and the early church did not simply adapt the myth of Dionysus; otherwise, they would have been critiqued to bits by the greco-roman intelligentsia.

>>17446024
>we're talking about causality on a moment-by-moment basis.

so prove it's eternal.

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:55:13 2021 No.17446062

>>17446036
>good poetics but not very strong religious stuff
the difference between the pagan texts and the Jewish texts is that the latter doesn't even have good poetics.
>Because you do things in life for the sake of other things and and all of those things lead up to one final thing which you give ultimate worth to
No. Again, quit projecting your nonsense onto others.

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:56:09 2021 No.17446067

>>17446054
>How could a God who created so many kind and beautiful things also be cruel
Christianity literally could not solve this without the Greeks lol. They had inherited the tribal war god of the Judaeans and needed to make him work with the popular Dionysaical cults.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:56:15 2021 No.17446068 Friendly reminder that Christians simp and paypig for an imagination. Beta energy.

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:56:16 2021 No.17446069

>>17446023
>>17446041
Tell me what lies at the end of your "for the sake of" chain. It could be lots of things if you're a very random and inconsistent man. Or maybe it's just one thing.

>>17446037
How does that answer my question. You're basically saying they're useful. For what, exactly? What is it that you worship?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:58:06 2021 No.17446081 >>17446061 In order for time to be created, time must already exist, since creation only exists imminent to time. Therefore, time was never created. Therefore, the world is eternal.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:58:45 2021 No.17446088 >>17446023 I think if you keep analyzing this 'worship' you'll find it's sexual (and feminine)

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:59:03 2021 No.17446089

>>17446061
>they would have been critiqued to bits by the greco-roman intelligentsia
Said people didn't understand Christianity wasn't Judaism for centuries. They were also anti-Bacchic for the most part too. The Romans proper produced almost no notable theologians. The key neoplatonists are all from the Hellenistic half of the empire. The Roman religion was extremely pragmatic, familial, and superstitous, the Greek far more devotional, theurgistic, and philosophical.

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:59:15 2021 No.17446091

>>17446062
>the difference between the pagan texts and the Jewish texts is that the latter doesn't even have good poetics.

not an argument

>No. Again, quit projecting your nonsense onto others.

quit straw-manning.

the fact is, the Greeks really did take poetic works as authentic religious accounts. Lucius (150 AD or thereabout) mocks it all to bits. I'd go so far as to posit the big boom in Greek philosophy was over the fact that greek religion didn't really offer any cogent explanations of much of anything - hence, the explosion of wisdom teachers.

Anonymous Tue Feb 2 23:59:50 2021 No.17446096

>>17446069
It's not something you can just scribble down in a notebook and call done with. I've had a hundred of these talks before and they all end the same. "It's not the pagans who swore it it's the Christians!" "It's not the Christians who sacrificed it it's the pagans!" If you're going to memoryhole this another time I think you better in a while when it's less likely to get shitposted about. Then it has to be a lot better than what the hell you think I'm trying to say.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:00:24 2021 No.17446102 >>17446054 >its vulnerabilities had nothing to do with Romans "abandoning" their traditional worship. it's vulnerabilities had to do with the rioting mobs of "end is nigh" loons

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:01:46 2021 No.17446113 >>17446088 i'm imagining a black street preacher tracing the etymology of "analyze" through "anal" "eyes"

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:01:47 2021 No.17446112 >>17446089 >Christianity wasn't Judaism Oh, it's Judaism. It's Judaism in every excruciatingly stupid little detail. Read the Letter to the Hebrews.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:01:56 2021 No.17446115 File: 45 KB, 540x628, F26C38C7-CB1C-4CDC-A168-BE6C4DEFABC8.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>17445403

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:02:06 2021 No.17446117 >>17446036 there is much more going on in the mithraic and orphic traditions, to name two, than poetics. augustine himself is heavily indebted to the latter since it was a cornerstone of both hermeticism and neoplatonism.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:02:48 2021 No.17446123 >>17446112 I did and I found nothing of the sort of nonsense you're blabbering about

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:02:52 2021 No.17446124 File: 138 KB, 500x500, 1600718919838.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>17446112 That's a story for another time

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:03:35 2021 No.17446129 >>17446091 >cogent explanations Why do you need these? Because your own emotions are in chaos. You are degenerate, ill-bred, mutation-riddled, in decay. "Reason" is life support for decadents

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:03:37 2021 No.17446130 >>17446096 You may as well have closed your eyes and hit random keys for a response, it would have had the same effect.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:04:25 2021 No.17446140

>>17446069
They are useful for being motivated to be a strong, beautiful person.
If by "for the sake of" you mean as a means to, then the end of my chain would be beauty. But I do not stand in deep reverence of beauty. It is not something that I am scared of, which was my point. But this si just a difference in definition. I would never be so nihilistic and empty as to say value doesn't exist (though even if value didn't exist I wouldn't be sad about it because I would be unable to value - funny funny!)

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:04:36 2021 No.17446142 >>17446123 >we have a new high priest >he gives the sacrifice >he has the proper bloodline it's Judaism, you sad cucked goy

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:04:54 2021 No.17446145 >>17446081 >creation only exists imminent to time Interesting. Can you prove that?

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:05:55 2021 No.17446148 >>17446142 You're a sick fuck.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:06:14 2021 No.17446149

>>17446067
>Christianity literally could not solve this without the Greeks lol

What are you even talking about? The fall of mankind is at the very beginning of the OT; and the whole point of Christ is that He points to the new way to Heaven.

>and needed to make him work with the popular Dionysaical cults.

???

Christianity didn't become popular until 70ish A.D or thereabouts; Dionysiac cults were old-hat loooooooong by then. I feel like you're just parroting something you've read somewhere. Bad anon!

>>17446081
>In order for time to be created, time must already exist

that's a tautological argument

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:06:32 2021 No.17446151

>>17446088
By "worship" here, do you mean that this is really a means to sex? That all desire boils down into desire for sex? Or are you saying my specific desire is feminine? Or are you saying worship (in the sense of liking whle holding reverence for something) is sexual and feminine?

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:07:14 2021 No.17446156 >>17446145 Not him but almost sounds like Bergson. We always spatialize time. Try to imagine time without a sequence in space. It cannot be done. Time is always relative to an object. Something literally "takes place." It is projected into space.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:08:38 2021 No.17446165 >>17446151 The latter because it's exactly what I wrote >>17446148 ;)

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:09:28 2021 No.17446167

>>17446149
As all the best arguments are.
>>17446145
Creation means something that wasn't there is now there. If something was always there, it wasn't created. If soemthing was never there, it also wasn't created. It is a difference between moments of being not being there, THEN being there.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:09:45 2021 No.17446169 >>17446156 Did you watch the recent Thamster video

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:10:19 2021 No.17446171 >>17446156 It could be the simple alteration of mental states, which is easy enough to imagine and experience.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:11:13 2021 No.17446174 >>17446156 No, it is not from Bergson. I've never read him. >>17446165 So do you think Christians are gay then? They are worshipping men after all, and if worship is sexual and feminine, then...

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:11:31 2021 No.17446176

>>17446149
Christianity just so happens to spread easily among the Greek speaking east after the church fathers decide early on not to enforce OT restrictions on Gentiles in order to become Christians. Idk something must have made this new religion palatable to their sensibilities. I wonder what. Certainly wasn't Augustine's arguments against the late pagans. See, since I am not approaching this from a magical miracle true believer point of view, the link is obvious that the apparent degenerate devil worshippers were actually Christians with less steps!

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:11:42 2021 No.17446177 >>17446167 creation could imply a logical relationship that is not subject to time. e.g. a is dependent upon b, but b does not precede a in time

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:12:14 2021 No.17446180 >>17446167 >It is a difference between moments of being not being there *moments of not being there

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:12:31 2021 No.17446181 >>17446174 Yes, exactly. Daddy comes and dominates you and makes you happy with his love.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:12:47 2021 No.17446183 >>17446167 >As all the best arguments are. No, dumbass. We call that circular reasoning.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:14:43 2021 No.17446196

>>17446169
No idea who that is sorry.
>>17446171
So you imagine your mind over time? As in you think about what you had thought about previously and compare it to now? Do these memories have any corporeality to them? Do you remember where you were or what you were thinking about, (which will inevitably have had some spatial reference anyway)?
>>17446174
Bergson is fairly easy to read even if you are not into philosophy. I'd recommend Matter and Memory, and Time and Free Will.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:15:21 2021 No.17446200

>>17446140
>Beauty
Having said that, what do you think beauty is? I mean, it is clearly higher than "the gods" because they are valued for the sake of beauty. It seems like at this point we see a very clear line drawn between pagan gods and the Christian God, because God is the ultimate end, whereas the pagan gods are a means to some end. Interestingly, God is infinite beauty, so in that sense you worship (give worth to) God (not the gods).

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:15:25 2021 No.17446201

>>17446176
>See, since I am not approaching this from a magical miracle true believer point of view

You're approaching this from the ignorant jack-ass point of view. All the Apostles spread out after the death of Christ to appeal to everyone they could; St. Paul even appeared to the Greeks in the Areopagus (with so-so results).

St. John's epistle is almost entirely directed at the Greek gentile community. From an a-religious perspective Christianity spread because they were willing to preach in the tongues of their converts; and again, paganism was on its way out.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:15:29 2021 No.17446202

>>17446177
What do you mean by "dependent"? To be dependent for your existence on something does not imply that it was created by that something. For instance, I might depend on some substance. But this doesn't mean that I was created by this substance, this just means that in order for me to exist, I also need substance to exist. In fact, the type of creation you are trying to conceptualize for god might lead right into Spinoza's pantheism.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:16:03 2021 No.17446205 >>17446196 https://youtu.be/uhIAbNfms8M

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:16:59 2021 No.17446208 >>17446183 My reasoning wasn't circular. Tautological arguments are not circular. If I want to prove all bachelors are single, and say to be a bachelor is to be single, that is a true, irrefutable, tautological, analytic argument.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:17:05 2021 No.17446209 Based.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:17:09 2021 No.17446210

>>17446196
>Do these memories have any corporeality to them?
No, just the pure alteration of state after state, with eyes totally shut and no visuo-spatial imagination. It's very similar to the Buddhist type of meditation, if not the same. It's hard to accomplish without being totally subdued and distracted by your own thoughts and imaginings.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:18:53 2021 No.17446217

>>17446208
"A tautological argument is otherwise known as a circular argument, that is, one that begins by assuming the very thing that is meant to be proven by the argument itself."

>that is a true, irrefutable, tautological, analytic argument.

except the question of Time being either eternal or having a start-date is still up in the air, officially. essentially you're just putting on airs.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:20:22 2021 No.17446225 >>17446217 >a start-date Time cannot start in time because there would thus already be time. How is this hard to understand? What is the problem?

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:20:43 2021 No.17446228

>>17446200
What do you mean by God is infinite beauty? Is being God infinite beauty? Is my percieving God infinite beauty? God is generally characterized as transcendental, meaning any aesthetic depiction of God is nonsensical, so I would say the exact opposite and say that God, being transcendental, is totally worthless to me. God as an imagination has more worth to be that God actually existing as something that doesn't exist to me. As least the one is imminent, bound up with other ideas and experiences in my life, and is capable of being beautiful (and sometimes ugly). The other I can know nothing about for certain, can never experience, and remains a complete beyond.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:20:44 2021 No.17446229

>>17446201
Do you understand at all any comparative mythology whatsoever or do you unironically believe that some perfectly correct novel and original message was created by God the Father in about the year 30 and revealed through Christ that appealed to (not quite) everyone through the power of magic tongues from the Holy Spirit?

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:22:13 2021 No.17446237 >>17446210 Buddhists would say space, time, and the mind perceiving them are ultimately without true existence, sort of the Exodia of this card game.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:22:56 2021 No.17446241 >>17446217 Please outline how I assumed the conclusion at the start of the argument, then. If what I said is truly circular, you should be able to show me, and I will be glad if you can because I don't like errors flying around in my head.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:23:26 2021 No.17446244

>>17446229
What does this have to do with the New Testament and superficial similarities with the Dionysian myth? You're the one putting forward the argument it was all a fraud shaped around the myth, so prove it.

>>17446225
Because:

1. Circular Argument
2. No scientific proof that time is eternal.

get it?

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:24:01 2021 No.17446248 >>17446237 Typically the first meditations one undertakes in Buddhism are focused on these more fundamental concepts which supposedly lead towards enlightenment, but are not "it." That's more what I meant.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:25:44 2021 No.17446257

>>17446244
>1. Circular Argument
It's only circular if one assumes time is not infinite.
>2. No scientific proof that time is eternal.
Scientific proof cannot overstep the bounds of empirical experience, and empirical experience necessarily is contained within time.

Again, what is hard to understand?

>>17446248
>>17446237
When I say "concepts", I use that term very loosely. A better one is "practices."

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:26:13 2021 No.17446259 >>17446205 I read faster than they will ever speak and I especially wouldn't want to sit through a discussion of Husserl.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:26:27 2021 No.17446261

>>17446149
>>17446217
I just realized to prove my argument was tautological you just left out my reasoning. You included:
>In order for time to be created, time must already exist
but not:
>since creation only exists imminent to time
Of course an argument is circular when you remove the reasons for the conclusion from it.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:28:37 2021 No.17446272 >>17446244 I just offered analytic proof that time was never created. That is even more solid than scientific proof. In order for time to be created, time has to exist since creation exists imminent to time by definition.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:29:00 2021 No.17446276

>>17446257
>It's only circular if one assumes time is not infinite.

so we're just back to the beginning where you rely on mere assertion that time is infinite, no?

>Scientific proof cannot overstep the bounds of empirical experience, and empirical experience necessarily is contained within time.

guess I have to take it on faith then

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:30:33 2021 No.17446284 >>17446228 >What do you mean by God is infinite beauty? NLP nonsense is what he means...words are the germs of mental illness

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:30:44 2021 No.17446286

>>17446244
It's not a "fraud" to be syncretic. And that is very obviously what Christianity is from a level perspective, one not mired in the expensive upkeep needed for the radical exclusivity of monotheism and revelation. The ideas are not new, the packaging is. Christianity did not invent soteriology. It did not invent death and rebirth of gods. It did not even invent iconoclasm or monotheological intolerance.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:30:44 2021 No.17446287 >>17446261 no, you could also argue that time only exists imminent to creation; which is also a circular reasoning :)

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:31:47 2021 No.17446292 File: 202 KB, 606x731, 1609949155409.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>17446248 Too based for an Ishvara thread

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:31:51 2021 No.17446294 >>17446286 >The ideas are not new, the packaging is. so in order to be authentic, it must be new? >It did not even invent iconoclasm or monotheological intolerance who claimed it did?

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:32:00 2021 No.17446296
File: 207 KB, 1556x871, 4th proof.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>17446228
I have to go to sleep so I will just copy and paste this from wikipedia. It is St. Thomas Aquinas's 4th proof for the existence of God. I believe it does a good job explaining why I was saying God is beauty, because beauty comes from him, and he is the most beautiful to an infinite degree.

>The other I can know nothing about for certain, can never experience, and remains a complete beyond.
Many would disagree, for example Aquinas. I believe knowing God is something one most progress into by improving his state of character, which ironically means bringing themselves closer to God. I will also say this, the beauty that you experience is but a infinitely small droplet taste of God.

Anyway, good night, its unfortunate we could not talk more since you seem genuine. Be well sir.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:32:24 2021 No.17446299

>>17446276
I don't understand how creation existing only in time by definition needs to be taken on faith. Just read the definition for creation. That is all the proof you need. You keep going on and on about me just asserting that time is infinite, using circular reasoning, etc., but you have been unable to identify any in my thinking. Your first attempt to show it left out all of my reasoning, of course it will be circular! You are not taking this discussion very seriously so neither will I anymore.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:32:45 2021 No.17446301

>>17446244
>1. Circular Argument
Also, consider this. "Time begins within time." This statement is simply wrong, because it is self-contradictory. The entire argument ends here. "Begins" is a fundamentally temporal verb, which means it cannot be applied to temporality itself, which subsumes it. In a set A (temporality) which contains but is not equal to B (beginnings), it cannot be said that B (beginnings) contains and is not equal to A (temporality). It's mathematically contradictory. Beginnings cannot exist without temporality, ergo temporality must exist prior to any beginnings (which is to say, temporality is infinite and not-begun).

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:33:56 2021 No.17446309

>>17446287
what? That makes no sense. Now you are just throwing around words and hoping you won't look like a fool. Creation can't exist without time and time can't exist without creation. What is your point? You are not even thinking before you are typing.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:35:23 2021 No.17446316

>>17446294
I'm not saying anything about authenticity or a need to be authentic. I am not giving definition or value to either of those. I am observing that Christianity spread among Hellenistic peoples more advancedly than the further afar pagans, and that this is in part due to the theological beliefs held by some classes of Greco-Roman society, which are so obviously similar to and predate Christianity that to deny this is pure ideological concern, such as maintaining the authenticity you are begging me to answer to. There is no authenticity, everything comes from everything else.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:35:24 2021 No.17446317 >>17446301 It isn't circular. He just asserted that it was circular without showing how.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:36:52 2021 No.17446321

>>17446299
both "sides" of your reasoning is circular

1. In order for time to be created, time must already exist (in for order for things to exist, time must be created)
2. since creation only exists imminent to time

you've simply made a circular argument based upon a circular argument. that's not enough to escape the fallacy. since you're not taking this seriously I can assume you realize this :))

in any case, you must huff your own farts if you think philosophers are just too stupid to simply reason that infinite regress is true

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:37:31 2021 No.17446323 >>17446296 You probably won't read this, but whatever. Aquinas's view of christianity seems much better than most because of the high value he puts on beauty.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:39:36 2021 No.17446333 >>17446323 That's from Greek theology, which Muslims also incorporated after their theologians combed through it to separate out the "bad" parts as well.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:39:53 2021 No.17446335

>>17446316
>I'm not saying anything about authenticity or a need to be authentic. I am not giving definition or value to either of those

OK, then why should we care about superficial similarities to other religions?

>I am observing that Christianity spread among Hellenistic peoples more advancedly than the further afar pagans, and that this is in part due to the theological beliefs held by some classes of Greco-Roman society

uh huh; yes, I already said Greek thought was already bending to a proto-monotheism

>which are so obviously similar to and predate Christianity that to deny this is pure ideological concern

who denied this? only thing I'm begging you to do is quit straw-manning.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:40:11 2021 No.17446338

>>17446321
That isn't my argument. You have erroneously layed out the steps by misunderstanding the "since" midway through. This is my argument:
1. In order for time to be created, you must be able to create
2. creation exists only imminent to time
3. therefore, time must already exist in order for time to be created
4. time must have always existed

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:43:28 2021 No.17446349 >>17446321 >in any case, you must huff your own farts if you think philosophers are just too stupid to simply reason that infinite regress is true They're not stupid, motivated reasoning makes people argue stupid things.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:43:41 2021 No.17446350
File: 357 KB, 1200x1047, 1200px-Edward_Hicks,_American_-_Noah's_Ark_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Christians believe that all humans and animals in the world were on this boat just 4,300 years ago. That's who we're dealing with.
>here come the copes

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:44:34 2021 No.17446355 >>17446335 Show me on the straw man where the argument touched you. I'm not sure where your issue is exactly

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:44:55 2021 No.17446357

>>17446321
>1. In order for time to be created, time must already exist (in for order for things to exist, time must be created)
>2. since creation only exists imminent to time
"Since" is a reason. Why are you putting the reason FOR something AFTER it if you are going to attempt to restructure his argument? Of cousre the argument will be circular if you put the cunclusion in the premises and then pretend that the reasons were derived from this conclusion.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:45:05 2021 No.17446358 >>17446338 what if time is the first creation tho

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:46:54 2021 No.17446367 >>17446358 There is no first creation for the reasons I have laid out. You can't go from there not being time to there being time, since this necessitates creation which necessiates time.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:48:35 2021 No.17446372 >>17446355 your argument seems to be that superficial similarity to pagan myths renders Christianity false. well, I can keep using the word "superficial" for a reason.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:50:34 2021 No.17446380 >>17446367 oh ok, so when are you going to be published since you proved that time is eternal and apart from creation :D

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:51:25 2021 No.17446384 >>17446372 Are there non-strawman arguments against the Christianity being the true word of God as revealed by his son Jesus in the year 30 and propagated by the tongues of fire of the disciples emboldened with the Holy Spirit?

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:53:20 2021 No.17446392 >>17446384 Sure. For instance; Jesus Christ wasn't the messiah (Judaism); or Jesus Christ is simply a prophet (any number of random abrahamic sects); and etc etc. These are theological arguments, not straw-man arguments.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:54:09 2021 No.17446394 lmao@John the Baptist >uhhh how do we roll this cult into ours?? >he was PREPARING THE WAY! Not the Christ, but the guy who had to tell everyone how cool baptism was! >what, are you gonna have an unprepared way? No! >okay, writing that down. Moving on

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:54:48 2021 No.17446398 File: 1.10 MB, 1248x868, 1611325227385.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>17446392 How is the similarity to Dionysus not a "theological argument"? It's about a god and it's an argument.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:56:45 2021 No.17446410 >>17446380 Being published is cucked.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:56:50 2021 No.17446411

>>17446398
Because it is intensely superficial. As someone who has read the NT and several accounts of Dionysus there are not enough similarities for me to buy the argument. There is also no charges from the early pagans at the time that the Apostles, or the frauds, or whatever changed the story around to suit pagan particulars.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 00:58:47 2021 No.17446414

>>17446392
An omnipotent God wouldn't need representatives to go around producing belief in people.

Earth and the human race are much older than ~4,000 BC.

There was no global flood in 2300 BC.

The census of Quirinius was not during the reign of Herod. Fucking monkeys writing this crap.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:01:17 2021 No.17446420 >>17446410 Good excuse. Let's poke around a bit: why does creation exist only imminent to time? Do you say that there was never a time when nothing was created?

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:02:03 2021 No.17446424

>>17446411
>there are not enough similarities for me to buy the argument
Personal problem
>There is also no charges from the early pagans at the time that the Apostles, or the frauds, or whatever changed the story around to suit pagan particulars.
Gosh who went around destroying and smashing as much of the demon worshipping past as they could in order to establish and justify their clerical rule? Not really sure about this one. One of the most successful repressions in history too, if we can just go beep boop these are superficial and not at all the same genre

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:02:36 2021 No.17446425

>>17446321
>in any case, you must huff your own farts if you think philosophers are just too stupid to simply reason that infinite regress is true
You have far too much faith in philosophers... haven't read kant yet, I'm guessing? To speak more seriously, it doesn't matter how smart you are: if you haven't analyzed a concept, then you are just as dumb as everyone else in regards to it. This is why women philosophers don't exist: women have the ability to be very high IQ, but it doesn't matter because they are neurotic and have high agreeableness, which means they won't analyze as much as a lower IQ man with high emotional stability and low agreeableness.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:03:20 2021 No.17446430

>>17446414
>An omnipotent God wouldn't need representatives to go around producing belief in people

Doesn't need sure; but what if he wants them too? This seems to be the case going by the scriptures.

>Earth and the human race are much older than ~4,000 BC.

Sure, Philo and St. Augustine reasoned that as well.

>There was no global flood in 2300 BC.

But there seems to have a been a major flood that shows up in most cultures and most mythologies, no?

>Fucking monkeys writing this crap.

Only monkey is you, I think.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:03:21 2021 No.17446431 >>17446380 Schopenhauer was already published 200 years ago idiot, and he proved just that. It's not our problem that there are still dumb Christcucks who cling to theology like apes.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:03:36 2021 No.17446432 >>17446425 >likes to analyze things >hates women ngmi

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:04:57 2021 No.17446437 >>17446430 >But there seems to have a been a major flood that shows up in most cultures and most mythologies, no? Uhhh don't you know that's just superficial?

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:05:00 2021 No.17446438 >>17446420 I have already been asked that exact question and replied to it. >Do you say that there was never a time when nothing was created? Ex nihilo nihil fit. Of course there was never such a time.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:05:04 2021 No.17446440

>>17446424
>Personal problem

Your argument is very weak and you must demonstrate how the superficialities are deadly enough to throw out the entire religion. There's nothing in the scriptures about the "newness" of the religion.

>Gosh who went around destroying and smashing as much of the demon worshipping past as they could in order to establish and justify their clerical rule?

Personal problem.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:08:30 2021 No.17446457 >>17446440 >There's nothing in the scriptures about the "newness" of the religion Hey disciplebros, do we need the OT if we have the NT? I mean, it's like old and this is like new, it's a new covenant that replaces the Noahide one?

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:09:33 2021 No.17446467

>>17446432
Where did I offer my value-judgement on women? That women are generally higher in neuroticism and agreeableness is a scientific, empirical truth that has already been published. I offered no prejudgement in my analysis either. To say a black man is more likely to commit a crime than an asian man also isn't racist, it's a fact.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:11:08 2021 No.17446477

>>17446430
>But there seems to have a been a major flood that shows up in most cultures and most mythologies, no?
We have a thing called geology now dipshit.
>Older earth
Oh nonono, Augustine had that thing about one moment of creation but he's not gonna call Genesis false. It gives everyone's age, you nincompoop. You can walk it right back. The Gospels themselves trace Jesus's genealogy back to Adam.
>but what if he wants to
that's fucking ridiculous. literally the only thing any human is supposed to do is become Christian and he lets people sit around--and die unbaptized--waiting for missionaries with no miracles or anything
>no response to your boy Luke's hilarious fuckup
I take it back, monke is based, you people are like rats

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:11:32 2021 No.17446481 >>17446467 >calling entire classes of people (who aren't me) retarded is just a polite fact

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:12:49 2021 No.17446489 >>17446457 *Mosaic one

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:14:11 2021 No.17446494 >>17446457 btw I'm trans so I know what it's like to have an old thing and a new thing, is OT like my deadname days?

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:18:55 2021 No.17446530

>>17446438
Then Time must be something, innit? Moreover, the first something. "time must already exist in order for time to be created" - makes less and less sense. why is creation contingent on time? Your formula is undone by simply saying that time is contingent on creation.

and well, we're just back to the cosmological argument, aren't we? An un-caused cause; unmoved mover; a mover not part of time.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:20:14 2021 No.17446539 >>17446530 >why is creation contingent on time? Creation implies a transition of state from state A to state B. This is the very definition of time, ergo creation implies the very definition of time (which is to say, time).

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:22:32 2021 No.17446547

>>17446477
>We have a thing called geology now dipshit.

And?

>but he's not gonna call Genesis false. It gives everyone's age, you nincompoop. You can walk it right back.

He didn't call it back, doofus. He and Philo argued that the days in the beginning of Genesis were allegorical. Moreover, he does not dispute the claim that the ancients were longer-lived as well.

>that's fucking ridiculous. literally the only thing any human is supposed to do is become Christian and he lets people sit around--and die unbaptized--waiting for missionaries with no miracles or anything

Why? Did you read the fall of man in the garden? God didn't promise that all would be saved; but that some might be saved. There's no promise anywhere that all man in his fallen nature will be saved.

>I take it back, monke is based, you people are like rats

Let me guess, you're an angry gay guy or something?

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:23:48 2021 No.17446554

>>17445584
Zeus was a rapist, adulterer, and a pederast.
Even ancient Greeks often admitted that they disapproved of Zeus’s actions and that his behaviour wasn’t God like.

> Xenophanes' surviving writings display a skepticism that became more commonly expressed during the fourth century BC. He satirized traditional religious views of his time as human projections.[28] He aimed his critique at the polytheistic religious views of earlier Greek poets and of his own contemporaries: "Homer and Hesiod," one fragment states, "have attributed to the gods all sorts of things that are matters of reproach and censure among men: theft, adultery, and mutual deception."

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:25:00 2021 No.17446560 >>17446539 that definition of creation does not imply an infinite regress (but I will admit, refutes it either). what was the first A state?

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:25:08 2021 No.17446561

>>17446430
>Unbelievers are also deceived by false documents which ascribe to history many thousand years, although we can calculate from Sacred Scripture that not 6,000 years have passed since the creation of man.
t. Augustine, CoG, book 12 ch 11, you weird assclown wasting your life

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:25:22 2021 No.17446562 >>17446494 No it was decided to keep it even though the God presented in NT is loving and universal compared to the abusive provincial one of the OT.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:26:28 2021 No.17446569 >>17446560 (but does not refute...)*

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:28:24 2021 No.17446582

>>17446560
>what was the first A state?
It's irrelevant to the argument. The point is, creation is contingent upon time, not the other way around. Creation cannot exist without transition (time) being presupposed.

For example, if you wanted to say the creation of time goes like this:
state A (no time) -> state B (time), time must exist to presuppose the transition of states, ergo state A becomes (time). How can state A be both (time) and (no-time)?

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:31:07 2021 No.17446599

>>17446554
Christians often assume Zeus/Jupiter is just a rapey bestial polytheistic chief-god and there is this aspect of Zeus for poets and myths but among the Hellenistic theologians he could be One or Demiurge or Intellect or any number of higher ordering principles given the name. Proclus for instance even considered Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades to be a trinity of Zeus alloted the heavens, earth, and the underworld in three parts. This trinity was then subsumed under a Zeus-Saturn-Uranus while the heavenly, earthly, and under Zeuses each got their own trinities, and so forth.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:31:18 2021 No.17446601
File: 1.66 MB, 1319x1788, D5936D2B-DA64-4ECD-A27B-95BB754A3EE8.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>17446316
Christianity spread the fastest in Greece. And it was Greeks like Ulfilas. who converted many German pagans like the Goths. Greece had already become more sympathetic to monotheism way before Christianity had spread.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:31:34 2021 No.17446602 >>17446561 Then he was wrong. We'll find out who was wasting their life in the end, though.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:36:01 2021 No.17446617

>>17446582
>It's irrelevant to the argument.

It seems to be the crucial point of the argument.
Don't we call this casuality? It seems to me that the first State A is time, with no prior State A to State B.

>>17446599
>Christians often assume Zeus/Jupiter is just a rapey bestial polytheistic chief-god and there is this aspect of Zeus for poets and myths but among the Hellenistic theologians he could be One or Demiurge or Intellect or any number of higher ordering principles given the name.

yes, which is just a mess of contradicting theological definitions.

>Proclus for instance even considered Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades to be a trinity of Zeus alloted the heavens, earth, and the underworld in three parts. This trinity was then subsumed under a Zeus-Saturn-Uranus

There's no real similarity between the Trinity and this concoction; you have the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; there are not three separate gods in charge of 3 separate domains and etc etc.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:38:57 2021 No.17446628

>>17446599
In fact, Proclus seems to have been a writer from 450 A.D. or thereabouts. Problem is, Augustine wrote on the Trinity (from which we understand much of it) at 400 A.D.

Very convenient of you to leave the days out; it seems Proclus ripped the Trinity from the Christians :D

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:39:04 2021 No.17446629 >>17445846 Funny since jews like Rothschild only became rich during anti-christian and pro-pagan enlightenment.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:39:51 2021 No.17446635 >>17446617 >Don't we call this casuality? It seems to me that the first State A is time, with no prior State A to State B. Then time is not created, and you've just refuted your own argument.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:41:23 2021 No.17446640

>>17446602
>you'll go to daddy's fire pit
you're so fucking pathetic dude. take a look in the goddamn mirror
>then he's wrong
who the fuck are you to contradict your God? He told you everything. Adam sired Seth at 130, Seth sired Enos at 90 or whatever...you just add em up

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:41:56 2021 No.17446643

Christianity, like all religions, is just a distraction - a coping mechanism to ignore the fact that your extinction is virtue of existence. The stupidity you morons are arguing about is irrelevant. You are going to die, and everything with you will dissolve - forever. There is no after life, no reunions with the other side. I will say, as an atheist though, I've read the bible. Its ironic, most of the Christians here probably haven't. Omnia Vanitas
>>17445898
The origin of the universe does not have to inform your world view. This is a stupid argument.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:44:17 2021 No.17446655

This entire argument is so fucking stupid. You realize, even if god exists, I don't have to care. I don't have acknowledge his existence because I can reject his authority over me. God wants to control me; tell me what to do for his causes, he should kill me right now.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:44:42 2021 No.17446657

>>17446643
>There is no after life, no reunions with the other side. I will say, as an atheist though,
A low IQ atheist, not too surprising. You should've at least read Nietzsche and understood what his eternal return really means (it is not meant totally literally, nor totally figuratively).
>You are going to die, and everything with you will dissolve - forever
This is true, but it's all the more reason to argue, no? May as well live and debate while we're here.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:45:49 2021 No.17446663 File: 196 KB, 1399x2135, 2D8E7039-CD1D-44CE-B861-9AA6547AFD03.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>17446643 Yeah. What’s all this arguing about religion and political ideologies on this board? They’ve already all been BTFO'd by one book.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:49:02 2021 No.17446678

>>17446635
I'm not really following. Creation cannot exist without Time, which would imply that Time is simply the first Creation.

>state A (no time) -> state B (time), time must exist to presuppose the transition of states

then Time must be the first creation, no? are you arguing that Time cannot transition in and of itself? is not Time transitional as an essential property?

the problem is that you are calling state A (no time), when it appears to me that one can simply state that Time begins with the first State A.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:49:58 2021 No.17446681

>>17446547
>And?
Jesus Fucking Christ
>letting people go to hell
If an omnipotent benevolent being wants everyone saved (1 Tim 2:4), he wouldn't do this. I mean, tying it all to belief in pointless fairy tales told to you by some Jew...fucking pointless. You're just sitting there in Siberia waiting to hear from a traveller about like, everyone eating fish that day or one guy not having leprosy anymore. Tad UNDERWHELMING for the almighty.

God it's just all so piddling. A little band of Judean rabble knowing the key to everything ever! But fuck Japan for like 1500 years lol

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:50:41 2021 No.17446688

>>17446657
>A low IQ atheist, not too surprising. You should've at least read Nietzsche
Calling me low IQ when you think Nietzsche was a nihilist, you fucking dumbass.
>>17446657
>all the more reason to argue
You're not arguing; you're proselytizing like every other religious fool.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:50:59 2021 No.17446693

>>17446655
>You realize, even if god exists, I don't have to care. I don't have acknowledge his existence because I can reject his authority over me

You do you. I'm still charged to defend the Faith :D

>>17446640
Calm down. In any case, it's a work of revelation not a scientific treatise. I treat it as a mark of the Holy Spirit that the Church never erroneously proclaimed the 6,000 year thing official :D

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:53:00 2021 No.17446700

>>17446617
I agree it's quite messy theology and in part this is due to the disinterest Hellenistic societies had in enforcing a revelatory canonical religion until that technology finally won out under Christianity. Instead you had bickering philosophical schools which subordinated theology to whatever their particular whims were. I would agree as well that the Christian and Jovian trinities are not direct comparisons, just an example of the diversity of Greek thought in the absence of a revelatory canon.
>>17446628
As noted above, merely sharing the number three is coincidental. It's not comparable to having the son of god be violently killed by mortals only to come to new life and redeem the murderers and their heirs. That is a lot more than superficial, it's substantial.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:53:53 2021 No.17446704

>>17446681
When I put that "and?" I was implying that you should put down what geology refutes.

>omnipotent benevolent

Oh I know you, you're that guy who wants to force God into your own silly definitions of goodness. He wants everyone saved; but the fallen nature of man means not everyone will.

>tying it all to belief in pointless fairy tales told to you by some Jew...fucking pointless

go on, are you some disaffected alt-right kid?

>A little band of Judean rabble knowing the key to everything ever! But fuck Japan for like 1500 years lol

Not everyone is going to be saved. That was never promised.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:54:38 2021 No.17446707 >>17446643 Based pragmatist poster. If the universe were a fart and not God's authentic fart it would smell the same as it does now.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:54:42 2021 No.17446709 >>17446693 Why is never god who defends himself with his omniscient presence? Why do the work for him?

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:54:51 2021 No.17446710

>>17446678
>then Time must be the first creation, no?
I've just told you explicitly why that's not the case. Read my posts again, if you don't understand them in the highly concise form I gave them to you before, I don't think I can help any further. Here:

>Time begins with the first State A.

LOOK AT THE EXACT WORDS YOU ARE USING:

Time (state A)
-------------------
BEGINS (transitional period, the implication is that time already IS and thus IS NOT "BEGINNING")
-------------------
with the first state A (actually state B).

Think more abstractly. I don't mean to insult you here, it's just a tiresome tedious argument to drone on about when it's so clear at the fundamental level.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:56:06 2021 No.17446715 >>17446704 >Not everyone is going to be saved. That was never promised. Remind me why I need to worship your celestial game warden again?

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:56:44 2021 No.17446717

>>17446700
>It's not comparable to having the son of god be violently killed by mortals only to come to new life and redeem the murderers and their heirs. That is a lot more than superficial, it's substantial.

It is not substantial enough. Was Dionysus killed in fulfillment of the scriptures? Was Dionysus the promised messiah? Did he radically change the religion? Was epistles did Dionysus' followers leave behind?

I already showed by comparing the dates that Proclus just got the trinitarian formula from Christians (you know, going through that whole Arian thing) - it's irrelevant.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:57:23 2021 No.17446721 >>17446709 The clever answer is that god is working through the tradzooms. But he isn't doing a great job.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:58:02 2021 No.17446723

>>17446693
>he Church never erroneously proclaimed the 6,000 year thing official
Dear Massive Faggot, it's even worse if you're Catholic--Scripture is inerrant and everyone descends biologically from Adam. Those are anathematized and everything.
>a work of revelation
oh yeah, like the rest of the genre, God writes so many books lol
>not a scientific treatise
cliche, and cope. "Adam lived 900 years" is true or false. There's no 'interpretation' where he lived 40 years. Genesis just *is* literal, texts tell you how to read them.
>I choose to read the box scores as an allegory XDD

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:58:47 2021 No.17446726 File: 429 KB, 1801x721, B5777924-A356-46E6-88F8-2FBBCCD80E0D.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>17445593 > Christianity says it’s wrong to fuck horses and little boys > This surely makes it Anti-Aryan!

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 01:59:26 2021 No.17446731 >>17446704 >silly definitions of goodness It's not throwing people into fire pits...

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:00:57 2021 No.17446736

>>17446726
You know why that person is covering their eyes in the left sculpture? Because it is depicting demonic shudras. The actual sexual pederasty practiced by the decadent later Romans was a relatively recent development as well, which was decadent even by pagan standards.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:04:04 2021 No.17446752 >>17446681 > But fuck Japan He did > Japanese blasphemously say their emperor is God on earth > Gets absolutely rekt by Christian nations > no longer proclaim their emperor is divine

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:04:13 2021 No.17446753

>>17446717
>It is not substantial enough. Was Dionysus killed in fulfillment of the scriptures? Was Dionysus the promised messiah? Did he radically change the religion? Was epistles did Dionysus' followers leave behind?
Does it not seem plausible to you that these points were necessary Christian appendices for the sake of reconciling the most monstrous idea possible to the Judaean roots of the faith, that God had a body and was killed by his creatures? I mean just read your OT and show me anywhere that the ineffable God whose name is only known as a binding incantation and should not be spoken plainly, whose existence defies iconography, who reaches out his hand to smite the unbeliever and apostate, can be thought to be killed or even appear to be killed by Italian policemen with hammers and nails. This is a disgusting and repulsive idea to the sensibilities of the old religion and is the product of centuries of Greek and other near East pagan influence, where gods and men mingle and do not simply yell from bushs or on mountains.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:05:50 2021 No.17446760

>>17446704
>He wants everyone saved; but the fallen nature of man means not everyone will.
It's not their fallen nature, it's that they haven't heard the news yet. He already told *some* people by supernatural intervention, why leave the others hanging if he wants them saved, according to his own writing? It's not like he gets tired

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:06:52 2021 No.17446763 >>17446752 >supporting the Jewish war for the Jewish god checks out

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:08:22 2021 No.17446769

>>17446715
Am I asking you to worship Him? Don't believe I did.

>>17446709
Part of the job.

>>17446710
Well, then it appears to me that Time is contingent on Creation. If time is transition, it needs something TO transition, no? If there is NOTHING that transitions, then by your own definition, there is no Time.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:08:47 2021 No.17446771 >>17446752 >no longer proclaim their emperor is divine They will undo this in our lifetimes to spite China and the US.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:09:42 2021 No.17446774 >>17446771 Hope so

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:12:49 2021 No.17446797

>>17446753
>Does it not seem plausible to you that these points were necessary Christian appendices

Where's the proof? The epistles were all separate accounts from different apostles at several points in time; are you arguing they all got together and colluded to purposely rip off Pagans? Same with St. Paul and Revelation and the rest? Seems like a far-fetched claim that desires proof.

>most monstrous idea possible to the Judaean roots of the faith, that God had a body and was killed by his creatures?

Seems like a far-fetched scheme; and the Trinity was not formulated until 300-400 years later too. It'd do you well to at least get your dates straight.

>can be thought to be killed or even appear to be killed by Italian policemen with hammers and nails.

That's the entire point of the Christian revelation; Christ is the Messiah and He was killed. And you are correct, many Jews did not believe.

>This is a disgusting and repulsive idea to the sensibilities of the old religion and is the product of centuries of Greek and other near East pagan influence

Well, this is where you're wrong. There's no evidence that they got together and changed the story to fit pagan mythos.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:20:16 2021 No.17446828

>>17446797
Yes the NT is a highly authoritative account and we cannot consider anything outside of it. We know this because it's true and it's true because it happened and it happened because we know it's true. A new religion extremely similar to points of Hellenistic theology appears in Judaea after hundreds of years of it being under the political, cultural, and even linguistic control of foreign peoples and this can only be explained in terms of polemical works written by missionaries. There was no attempt to combine imported beliefs with older ones, that would be conspiratorial and makes me uncomfortable.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:21:15 2021 No.17446836 >>17446763 > DA JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOS So got anything original or new to say?

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:23:19 2021 No.17446849

>>17446769
>If time is transition, it needs something TO transition, no?
At best this implies that matter and time are co-dependent, which is a pantheistic line of argument. And that is if we assume that time does not exist without something it transitions; I don't know if there is a way to determine the truth value of this statement (for example, what counts as "substance" to be "transitioned"? Could time act upon itself, thus sustaining itself?). But even so, time would still be the, or at least a, "prime condition" of all existence.
>If there is NOTHING that transitions, then by your own definition, there is no Time.
In that particular case (which is purely hypothetical), there would be no time, but there would also never be a beginning of time because that would presuppose time, which does not exist to begin with.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:23:29 2021 No.17446850 >>17446774 Look up Nippon Kaigi. Japan unironically has a neo-militarist Shinto deep state.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:24:36 2021 No.17446858 Although there is a catch. The next God Emperor may be a she.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:24:43 2021 No.17446860

>>17446828
>Yes the NT is a highly authoritative account and we cannot consider anything outside of it.

Didn't argue that at all - please quit straw-manning. I am not arguing for the authoritativeness of the work, I'm arguing that there is no proof the fundamental story was changed around to suit Pagan mythology.

>We know this because it's true and it's true because it happened and it happened because we know it's true.

When you put your straw-man like that, it is indeed circular; but I'm really asking you to provide proof the story was changed :D

>A new religion extremely similar to points of Hellenistic theology

Puh-leez. I never claimed there wasn't syncretic elements in the missionary work, but you cannot provide proof the story was ever changed for the sake of "hellenistic theology".

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:28:18 2021 No.17446876

>>17446849
>at best this implies that matter and time are co-dependent

which would go back to the cosmological argument..

>which is a pantheistic line of argument

wut

>I don't know if there is a way to determine the truth value of this statement

We can determine the truth value by how you defined Time. If there is nothing that transitions, there is no Time. Your definition, not mine.

>Could time act upon itself, thus sustaining itself?). But even so, time would still be the, or at least a, "prime condition" of all existence.

Which would be refuted if we allow that Time is transition and it requires something to transition, no? Thus, no "self-sustaining Time".
Your definition, not mine - for a second time :D

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:29:14 2021 No.17446880

>>17446860
The story *is* pagan theology. The problem was reconciling it with Judaean religion where the one true god cannot come to earth and be killed for the sake of all the nations of the Roman empire. The solution was Christianity. This is the non-miraculous explanation. The NT will never yield a non-miraculous explanation.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:31:22 2021 No.17446892 >>17446876 You're genuinely retarded or feigning ignorance, I'm done trying to drag your tiny little (or resolutely stubborn) brain along with me.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:32:33 2021 No.17446897

>>17446880
>The story *is* pagan theology.

It's not. Are you arguing that "resurrection" renders Christianity false simply because another religion has the same plot-point?

>This is the non-miraculous explanation. The NT will never yield a non-miraculous explanation.

Well, He didn't stay dead. Show me the bones, buddy :D

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:34:16 2021 No.17446906 >>17446892 Yeah our friend smiles here thinks he is not accepting the authority of the NT in his use of NT for proof that Jesus is not a modification of Dionysus. Extremely slippery.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:38:02 2021 No.17446922

>>17446897
Again I am not weighing in on true/false or valid/invalid at all. I am looking at the theological evidence which is not the same thing as assuming the sectarian texts are authoritative. What you are upholding would be the equivalent of being like the third or fourth man on earth to have built a house, after seeing the others built, and then telling your kids I built the house all by myself and building it was all my idea.

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:38:19 2021 No.17446927

>>17446892
I must be retarded because you defined Time as transition; and, it seems fairly obvious to my retarded self, that Time is therefore contingent on Creation if Time does not exist if there is nothing to transition.

in which case, your tidy formulation (>>17446338 ) falls apart seeing that Time cannot exist prior to a created thing. :D

why aren't you published again?

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:39:15 2021 No.17446930

>>17446876
But before I depart
>We can determine the truth value by how you defined Time. If there is nothing that transitions, there is no Time. Your definition, not mine.
Yes, but this does not affect my overall argument in the slightest. This is why I am claiming you are retarded - because you can't even follow the train of thought.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:40:37 2021 No.17446935 >>17445023 This book was literally written as a cope after the Pagans sacked Rome. Also, before Saint Augustine was converted to Christianity, he was a hedonistic guy who fucked men. Why is he taken so seriously?

Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:40:44 2021 No.17446937

>>17446930
>Yes, but this does not affect my overall argument in the slightest.

Your entire argument falls apart because Time is therefore reliant on something being created to exist in the first place. Quit throwing around insults if you embarrass yourself like that.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:41:38 2021 No.17446942 >>17446927 >Time is therefore contingent on Creation I defined time as transition. Transition does not imply creation. Please show me how transition necessarily implies creation, and how it is not creation that necessarily implies time.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:42:43 2021 No.17446947 >>17446942 >Transition does not imply creation. It absolutely does. If there is no creation, there is no transition. There is nothing to BE transitioned.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:43:13 2021 No.17446949 >>17446947 >It absolutely does This is your entire argument. >It just does bro Spare me your brainlet platitudes.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:43:43 2021 No.17446952 >>17446949 Not an argument.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:44:26 2021 No.17446957 >>17446935 Have you heard about the uh... the... temptations which afflict the clerical hierarchy?

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 3 02:45:03 2021 No.17446961 File: 568 KB, 160x160, 1402966630631.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>17446952

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/lit/ - Literature