[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/lit/ - Literature


View post   

File: 69 KB, 292x480, petrach pepe pose.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17861428 No.17861428 [Reply] [Original]

Does anyone know of a particularly good collection or translation Petrarch's works? His sonnets are what I'm most interested in, but I'm interested in him in general, as I've fallen in love recently with Italian literature in general. Right now I'm tossing up between the two 'basic' picks (the Oxford and the Penguin), but I want to do some research first. Cheers.

>> No.17861857

>>17861428
I've seen many recs for Mark Musa's rendition. It is unrhymed, so it is very precise, and it contains the original poems as well. Might be worthy of considering.

>> No.17861868
File: 208 KB, 900x1162, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17861868

>>17861428
Petrarch was a genius. Your post made me want to look for English translations of his works and I've found one of the Rerum Familiarium Libri on LibGen. I downloaded it and started reading for curiosity:

>To his Socrates—What are we to do now, dear brother? Alas, we have already tried almost everything and no rest is in sight. When can we expect it? Where shall we seek it? Time, as they say, has slipped through our fingers; our former hopes are buried with our friends. The year of 1348 left us alone and helpless; it did not deprive us of things that can be restored by the Indian or Caspian or Carpathian Sea. It subjected us to irreparable losses. Whatever death wrought is now an incurable wound. There is only one consolation in all this: we too shall follow those who preceded us. How long our wait will be I do not know; but this I do know, that it cannot be long. And however short the wait may be, it cannot avoid being burdensome.

This is some amazing prose, even in translation, and the whole letter lives up to the opening lines.
I'm Italian btw, if you could send me two different translations of a same sonnet I could tell you which one is better. That was my initial intention but LibGen doesn't have any decent edition of the Canzoniere.

>> No.17862021

>>17861428
>>17861868
Going to bed now, don't let the thread die.

>> No.17862270

>>17861868

So glorious. As an Italian, do you think Mark Musa's translations are any good? As to Dante, as well, since the opportunity now presents itself, do you have any particular translation which you think is best? I've read the Musa, the Longfellow, and the Sayers translations, and of the three, I have preferred the last.

I'll find two translations of Petrarch in a little bit and post them, for your comparison. Thanks a lot for this man, it's a real help.

>> No.17862278

>>17862021

Will do brother.

>>17861857

I've read his translation of La Vita Nuova and it was great. So good that it made me want to make my own Vita Nuova lol. I know that sounds stupid but I'm sure that if you've read enough you'll understand the impulse that I'm describing.

>> No.17862696

>>17861868

Ok brother I'm sorry to say that I actually couldn't find two translations of the same sonnet anywhere. It seems its just not readily available on the internet and I don't have any in my private ownership.

Might I shift the question then? The Oxford edition has some 27 sonnets from the Canzionere, mixed in with parts of his other work, and some of his prose. It is edited by a very renowned translator. The Penguin edition has the complete Canzionere, translated by a lesser known translator.

Which do you think seems best? Would it be better to get his best sonnets, and a wider sample of his work as a whole, in their most esteemed translation, or would the complete instance of his most renowned works, by a lesser translator seem best?

>> No.17862823
File: 46 KB, 700x641, Frosch.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17862823

>don't let the thread die.
>Will do brother.
What did he mean by this?

>> No.17863658

>>17862823

>Will do brother

= I Will carry on as you asked.

>> No.17864679
File: 98 KB, 512x398, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17864679

>>17862696
>>17862270
Okay I've found something, let's make a comparison.
Here is the first sonnet of the Canzoniere:
>
>
>
>

Voi ch’ascoltate in rime sparse il suono
di quei sospiri ond’io nudriva ’l core
in sul mio primo giovenile errore
quand’era in parte altr’uom da quel ch’i’ sono,

del vario stile in ch’io piango et ragiono
fra le vane speranze e ’l van dolore,
ove sia chi per prova intenda amore,
spero trovar pietà, nonché perdono.

Ma ben veggio or sì come al popol tutto
favola fui gran tempo, onde sovente
di me medesmo meco mi vergogno;

et del mio vaneggiar vergogna è ’l frutto,
e ’l pentersi, e ’l conoscer chiaramente
che quanto piace al mondo è breve sogno.

This is the translation by A. S. Kline, which is the one of the Penguin edition if I am not mistaken. Found it on some website:

You who hear the sound, in scattered rhymes,
of those sighs on which I fed my heart,
in my first vagrant youthfulness,
when I was partly other than I am,

I hope to find pity, and forgiveness,
for all the modes in which I talk and weep,
between vain hope and vain sadness,
in those who understand love through its trials.

Yet I see clearly now I have become
an old tale amongst all these people, so that
it often makes me ashamed of myself;

and shame is the fruit of my vanities,
and remorse, and the clearest knowledge
of how the world’s delight is a brief dream.

And now the translation of Musa (Indiana University Press) found on Google Books:

O you who hear within these scattered verses
the sound of sighs with which I fed my heart
in my first errant youthful days when I
in part was not the man I am today;

for all the ways in which I weep and speak
between vain hopes, between vain suffering,
in anyone who knows love through its trials,
in them, may I find pity and forgiveness.

But now I see how I've become the talk
so long a time of people all around
(it often makes me feel so full of shame),

and from my vanities there comes shame's fruit,
and my repentance, and the clear awareness
that worldly joy is just a fleeting dream.

>> No.17864688
File: 49 KB, 340x420, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17864688

>>17862696
>>17862270
>>17864679
My first impression was that Musa's translation sounds better, it is more rhythmical, but I might be wrong because English is not my native language. Unfortunately—but that's inevitable I guess—the rhymes are lost, which are such an essential part in Petrarch's sonnets. Musa's version seems to be also more accurate—every line coincides with the same line in the original sonnet, whereas Kline changes the position of certain lines for syntax reasons.

Now, moving to the word choice, let's take a key passage of the original sonnet: the "giovenile errore". Now, errore is a very particular word, because in the Italian of Petrarch it can have two different meanings: it can mean mistake (as in the English "error") or the quality of wandering, the vagrancy (whence the English "errant", which is clearly linked to "error"). In fact, in Medieval times, getting off the beaten path—losing oneself—WAS an error, a sin (remember Dante? “For the straightforward pathway had been lost”). So the two meanings actually coincide. (It's interesting to see, as a side note, that the two greatest literary works of the 14th century both being with the same concept). So, coming to the translation, it seems to me that Musa was very intelligent in rendering the phrase as "errant youthful days" instead of "vagrant youthfulness" (Kline), since the word "errant" covers semantically both the meanings, error AND wandering.

But let's see another passage. Favola fui gran tempo: in this stunning expression Petrarch uses the word "favola" which means exactly "fable". In today's Italian a favola is nothing but a fairy tale. However, in Petrarch's poetry the subtleties are so fine that certain terms can end up meaning something entirely different: so, in this circumstance, favola becomes a slightly ironic way to signify a rumor, a gossip that flowed from mouth to mouth, exactly the same way that fairy tales are orally transmitted from generation to generation. Petrarch could have just used the word "joke" and the meaning wouldn't change, because that's what he means: he had become a joke among people. So, knowing all of this, how do we judge the two translations? Should we prefer Kline's "an old tale" or Musa's simpler "talk"? Personally, I find Musa's choice again more convincing. An old tale can mean a lot of things, and it also assumes a different nuance, like that of a "legend", which is absent in the original. A more basic and neutral "talk", on the contrary, conveys exactly the meaning of the original phrase, although at the cost of losing the nuance of "fable".

>> No.17864694
File: 223 KB, 799x506, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17864694

>>17864688
One last consideration: Musa's last line, with that Leopardian "fleeting dream" is much more beautiful than Kline's limping verse. In the end my verdict is go for Mark Musa, it really looks like a well made edition. Also, regarding your question as to whether you should get the complete Canzoniere or a selection, I would say the former is the best idea. Canzoniere is more than a collection of poems, everything is interconnected and held together by a common thread. The nicest thing to do is to open it at a random page every day and read whatever the fortune brings to you.

>> No.17864741

>>17864688
edit: both *begin with the same concept

>> No.17864801

>>17864679
>>17864688
>>17864694
>>17864741

Thanks Italobro these are amazingly insightful posts and incredibly helpful. Seriously, thank you so much for taking the time to share your country's magnificent literature with us all. You've convinced me that Musa is the way to go, and I've actually happened across an edition that has the full Canzionere translated by him (by a smaller publisher). But gotta wait for my paycheck to come in, and then I'll order it :)

>> No.17864842

>>17864688
Thank you for the qualitypost

>> No.17865172

>>17864842
>>17864801
You're welcome! I'm happy to know I was helpful.

If you ever want to read something else by Petrarch after the sonnets, I recommend the Ascent of Mont Ventoux, which is an allegorical episode from the Epistolae Familiares (Familiar Letters). It's beautiful and really encapsulates the spirit of Humanism. Farewell, dear friend!