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/lit/ - Literature

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17868867 No.17868867 [Reply] [Original]

Sister Thread: >>>/int/lang

>What language(s) are you learning?
>Share language learning experiences!
>Ask questions about your target language!
>Help people who want to learn a new language!
>Participate in translation challenges or make your own!
>Discuss what books you want to read in your target language and why!
>Discuss the literature of different languages!
>Make frens!

Some resources (shamelessly stolen from /int/)
Read this shit some damn time:

>Totally not a virus, but rather, lots of free books on languages:

>Lots of books on linguistics of various kinds, as well as language courses:

>Check this pastebin for plenty of language resources as well as some nice image guides:

>Torrents with more resources than you'll ever need for 30 plus languages:

>List of trackers for most language learning packs:

>Ukrainianon's list of commercial courses from rutracker.org:

>Russianon's list of comprehensible input resources:

>> No.17869205


>> No.17869301

what books should I read in Latin? Preferably not Classical

>> No.17869462

I bought Los Ciudad y Los Perros in Spanish. I was thinking about translating it into English to learn Spanish. Is this generally a good exercise? Thanks

>> No.17870900

>Aren't all the Classic Chinese novels (Romance of the 3 Kingdoms, Journey to the West, etc.) in Manadarin?
No. Spoken Mandarin became the written standard in the 20th century. Anything written before then was in Classical Chinese, which differs heavily from any spoken dialect.

>not him. saying mandarin is like going "Yes I'm learning Parisian" or "I'm going to learn Londonian."
That is a gross misunderstanding of what Chinese languages are. Mandarin is not just the dialect of the capital, it is a dialectal group that extends all across northern China as a native language, and all across the rest of China as an acquired language, and has been used as the basis for the written standard. "Learning Parisian or Londonian" would be the equivalent of learning the Beijing dialect exclusively.

Yue, Hakka, Min, Wu, etc. are as different from Mandarin as Spanish is from Romanian.

>> No.17870906

You will never learn. Stop deluding yourself.

>> No.17870912

my diary desu

>> No.17870983

anon, attempting something and failing will never get you anywhere. Learning occurs when after you've given up, you try again. Progress can be measured in the amount of times you've gone back to something, not just in the amount of a person's corrected failures. Don't give up, and never quit trying again

>> No.17871131

yellow-bellied wayward vouchsafed ululate twine turgid cell truncheon thatched roof tawdry tautology suture surplice stevedore spoof slighted scrap singularity scrumpy scaggy salubrious refractory reefer quire querulous quadrivium preponderance petticoat perm pea gravel partial to orthoptist octothorpe nondescript noggin musing mothman mirthful middling masonic handshake trivium long in the tooth lachrymose kismet jejune inimical homonym high-concept grove grandiloquent genetic load gasket fugacious fractious formic acid foid feculent fine kettle of fish dusky divest defang crisscross contrafibularities alcoves cochineal character assassination cast iron skillet cargo pants cargo cult buzzard buoyant bolo tie billowy be partial to avulse aver attrite alkaline foods aggrieved abberant strident Eucharist peddle posthaste liquidity trap nebbish bits and bobs orthodontics concomitant dour hem in shibboleths ontology forceps sarong philological hoity-toity onomatopoeia glazed ethnogenesis with bated breath shinding wring out crimp spoofing marauder cladding stolid churl quant fracas stand-in fall off a turnip truck grouse about chic clunky scarlet letter fob off strident spunk valence snooty wail gantlet bear the brunt of bouldering remittance the crunch bulk up bungle up cardinal finis frayed scold constipated polecat shriek dyed-in-the-wool stack up gainsay skit stick it to the man be out of the loop tried-and-true wayward chafe at break the glass spry special operations snare lee norp pin down rap someones knuckles redemptive right out of the gates ripple short interest sloping snare snarl snazzy suit sweeping changes swoon turpentine at a tilt thwack take to task apoptosis be in hot water body mist canvas shopping bags cast off cellophane bag chew someone out caul cauldron chimerical chomping at the bits chutzpah cladistics cromulent new crop of explanations daubed derring-do dickering distend dowdy egg on flustered foundered free pass to fulcrum gambrel roof go through the motions grey pound get the shaft harebrained helotry high and dry whimsical tale wraparound stultify swank scant rear up Chrimbo passporting ex ante limerick razzle-dazzle vat barf vade mecum kook jacked up loosey-goosey onomatopoeia maw receptacle catatonic histrionic fracas flustered yeet tide over saunter slug nest egg raft of raffle scion Cartesian legate gaf snap at somebody's heels scromiting pikey blasé tussle with casuistry inimical fecundity senscence litotes ontological poon biosimulation cad vituperation plump for something bear out sanctimonious bay kettling clutch your pearls gentry fizzle out cast a pall on spin a story pull out all the stops ecclesiastic placard canard toboggan histology grotty opprobrium pearl clutcher waffle on flick through foreboding

>> No.17871216

Right now I am going through French in Action and Lingua Latina in parallel. Pretty fun so far.

>> No.17871219

>Spoken Mandarin became the written standard in the 20th century. Anything written before then was in Classical Chinese, which differs heavily from any spoken dialect.
No. It's correct that literary Chinese was the standard, but Chinese novels were still written to resemble the spoken dialect.
>The literary language was less appropriate for recording materials that were meant to be reproduced in oral presentations, materials such as plays and grist for the professional story-teller's mill. From at least the Yuan dynasty, plays that recounted the subversive tales of China's Robin Hoods to the Ming dynasty novels such as Water Margin, on down to the Qing dynasty novel Dream of the Red Chamber and beyond, there developed a literature in written vernacular Chinese (白话/白話, báihuà). In many cases, this written language reflected Mandarin varieties and since pronunciation differences were not conveyed in this written form, this tradition had a unifying force across all the Mandarin-speaking regions and beyond.

Of course, I have no idea how large the gap between the older vernacular Chinese and modern, standardized Mandarin is. I would assume it's a lot closer than the Literary variant though.

>> No.17871286

lol why are "No." posters always so hilariously wrong. What is it that gives them such unwavering confidence in their ignorance. Like, the popular novels of the written in the vernacular are one of the most celebrated facets of Chinese culture. It's very elementary stuff that anyone who's even but dipped their toes into the topic will be aware of.

>> No.17871297

So Italian
I've gotten to the point that i can read most novels at a reasonable pace – though dont ask me to read any of the experimental Gruppo 63 shit or the more dialect heavy Sicilian stuff – and now want to work on my pronunciation.

any ideas? My one Italian friend has moved back to help her parents during covid.
An audiobook would be ideal but i cant fucking any. and i still have real trouble keeping track of what people are saying on the radio. Ideally i'd have an audiobook on one screen the text on the other and could follow along.

>> No.17871353
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Oh and i wanted t ask about Verga's I Malavoglia. Is it a dialect heavy book?
How difficult of an author is he?

>> No.17871368

Dream of the Red Chamber, written in Vernacular Chinese, circa 18th century

Strange Stories from a Chinese Studio, written in Classical Chinese, circa 18th century

the difference is obvious

>> No.17871425

I can't help you, but how long did it take you to be able to read fluently and what is your mother tongue?

>> No.17871530

I started off knowing English and Russian.

Italian took me a little under 2 years of fairly halfassed application.
8 month's to a year before i could read a newspaper or magazine ( Still looking up words, but mostly for assurance,) and then another year before i felt comfortable with a novel.

>> No.17871559


>> No.17871565

And one big bit of advice. Start with the grammar and save yourself 3 month's.

>> No.17871569

Friendly reminder that learning grammar and memorizing vocabulary is useless.

>> No.17871585

So what to start with then

>> No.17871618

There are a couple dialectal words thrown in there but the rest is all in Italian. The difficulty comes mostly from the fact that he doesn't really do exposition: he narrates as though he and the reader were villagers themselves and thus leaves much to be figured out. This can be rather confusing in the first chapters but gets better and is worth it later on when the reader gets acquainted with the characters and the village.

>> No.17871627

Just let me tell every language teacher before the 1980s.

>> No.17871638

Not that anon, but I like starting with something like Pimsleur. You first start speaking and listening, picking up a basic vocabulary and an intuitive understanding of grammar along the way. Afterwards, you can still read a book to get acquainted with the nuances of grammar or download an Anki deck for vocabulary practice if you want to. But it's imo much more important to continue immersing yourself in the language.

>> No.17871657

ignore him and get a grammar book in whatever language you want or you can do what he says and pretend you are smarter than every single person that was before you.

>> No.17871666

Thanks man.
I'll get to him ones im done with L'Affaire Moro.
Sciascia seems to be an ideal intermediate author. Just simple enough to make me feel clever before i plunge into something more adventurous .
What's his reputation like BTW? is he dismissed as too popular? too simple to be serious ?

>> No.17871863

>is he dismissed as too popular? too simple to be serious?
Not that I know of: though I'm not very familiar with post-war authors his reputation seems pretty solid.

>> No.17871889
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What do y’all think of this book?

>> No.17871905

Or this one better

>> No.17871910

> his reputation seems pretty solid.
Gosh! Now i feel even more clever

>> No.17871911
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Forgot pic rel ^^

>> No.17871948

It's funny how in this lang you can tell everyone is American.

>> No.17871984

I’m Bri’ish

>> No.17872023

im Russian

>> No.17872054

I'm Italian

>> No.17872057

I'm a nigger

>> No.17872249

im from the USA

>> No.17872347

there's a method some language learners use called 'shadowing', where are listening to something like an audiobook and saying what the voice is saying at the same time (akin to playing along to music). The emphasis is to focus on the sounds, rhythm, pace as much as you can.


in that video the polyglot Alex Argulles is demonstrating it. I don't know if he invented the method himself but he talks about it on his channel to some depth. Argulles recommends that you do something physical like walking at the same time.
it's weird that he picked textbook dialogues to shadow.
One of the side effects of shadowing is that you start accumulating chunks of whatever you are shadowing into long term memory. If this was a novel you could quote long stretches given enough practice.

you may want to try and find a native italian tutor (if you haven't already) to work on your pronounciation. the more-educated and experienced tutors cost more but its worth it in the long run. there's sites that link tutors to students, talking via zoom/skype/.

it looks like theres italian audiobooks on youtube??

>> No.17872398

Stop samefagging

>> No.17872416

how can you tell what nationality people ITT are?

>> No.17872584

>it looks like theres italian audiobooks on youtube

Yes admittedly there are a few. nothing im interested in sadly but it may be worth it anyway.

> shadowing
Now that made feel like a retard. I've done something similar by committing poetry to memory and found that it helps, so maybe i'll give this a shot ones i find a book i can follow. (Like i said there no good Italian audiobooks anywhere )

Sigh... i miss my qt Italian friend. She would wear loose dresses and tease me for getting things wrong. She was sweet and charming and we held hands like we were 12 years old . SHE EVEN KNEW LATIN FOR HEAVENS SAKE. I'll never find anyone like her =`(

>> No.17872638

Stop projecting

>> No.17872644

I have the German one and it's quite good

>> No.17872678


just by halfassing it for 3 H each morning i've been able to learn 3 languages in about 5 and half years. Not a scratch on this guy, but at least i've also managed to have a life.

>> No.17872714

Shadowing is the high-intensity interval training of language learning.
It's tiring and cringy but very effective, especially if you record yourself and listen to your mistakes.

>> No.17873251

nice job anon!
What languages did you learn? Did you learn them sequentially or at the same time?

>> No.17873735

Italian, French and Portuguese ( which admittedly i had started and dropped ones before)

Also in deference to the linguist guy i cant actually speak them all that well. I can read on all three on a reasonably high level and that's it.

>> No.17874044

>the difference is obvious

>> No.17874092

Attic Greek is the most fun language I've ever studied; it feels vital in a way that Latin does not. Maybe it's just because I have a raging erection for Plato ...

>> No.17874105

>ctrl+f "inutile"
>Phrase not found
bro, that has got to be one of my favorite meaning-sound marriages.

>> No.17874208

The Latin orations of Muret

>> No.17874216

What are the best grammar books for Italian?

Mastronarde's? I have it here and am tempted to read it because I love how Greek sounds. Since you mentioned Plato, how far have you reached? I also love Plato and is one of the main motifs for learning the language, even though it is a lifetime study.

>> No.17874368

I need to start writing daily in my target language.
But whats the best way to do it?
Just a daily diary? Do I look up specific new nouns or verbs that I need to use or should I write around them? Should I check them afterwards?

>> No.17874401

With French, I would write tiny stories of like 5 sentences with vocab and repeating grammar structures I was learning for the day.

>> No.17874526
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No, I actually hadn't heard of Mastronarde, but he looks good on first glance. I used the two-book Athenaze, which is basic but very well structured. Once you finish it, you're ready to dive into the literature. I started with the "Apology," which was a good introduction to some syntactical peculiarities of philosophical Greek. Then I read Euripides' "Helen" on a lark, and now just I read whatever.

Familiarity with Plato in your native language is helpful of course, as you can appreciate how he pushes against the boundaries of Greek to carve out a new philosophical language. My main object of study is currently the "Philebus," but I've read (at least) sections of almost all Plato's dialogues in Greek. [The "Cratylus" is especially important to read in Greek, for obvious reasons.] I found it a very easy language to learn, and I'm not great with foreign languages; it took me 1.5 years of academic (read: lazy) study to get to comfortable proficiency. You could easily compress that to a year if you're dedicated.

Pic related is a contemporary landmark reference once you're done with basic study, and want to get into the nitty-gritty of syntax, particles, etc. Also, I recommend the recent two-vol. Cambridge compilation of the Presocratics: https://www.amazon.com/Texts-Early-Greek-Philosophy-Presocratics/dp/0521608422 One, it has facing English and Greek; two, the fragments are often bite-sized and sometimes gnomic, which means that you get a high reward-to-effort ratio. It gave me an appreciation for Aristotle, whom I find largely inaccessible in English — he is brilliantly clear and precise in Greek. Holy hell, I might have to read Aristotle soon.

>> No.17874992

This post is really encouraging! Thank you, anon. Do you have a link to pdf Athenaze? I feel like Athenaze’s books are meant to be read in a classroom. But the more the best when it comes to Greek, I guess.
I only hope my determination and eagerness to learn it does not diminish, for I’m also drawn to Italian and German.

>> No.17875099


It did benefit from a classroom format, but my wife is successfully learning it on her own with just the textbooks and workbooks (I promised to tutor her, but got too busy lol). She knows philosophical and biblical German — I do not — and says that the structure of Greek study is very like German. IIRC, that's because the Boche spearheaded the modern study of Greek.

Do you know Latin? I personally didn't bother with Italian until I knew Latin: then, Italian was as easy to learn as Modern Greek is after Ancient Greek. That is to say, it's very easy. And hell, if you don't know Latin, it's just an evolved form of Etruscan, which itself is largely a bastard proto-Greek! Plato alone is worth studying Greek, an intrinsically fun language.

>> No.17875587


>> No.17875887

I never said you could "read everything" after a year and a half; in fact, I pointed to Presocratic fragments and the Apology as easy points of entry into reading Greek philosophy. Obviously, some texts are more difficult than others, genius.
>master all the grammar
First off, why would you have to *master* all the grammar? Second, why should you have to master *all* the grammar? There aren't many curveballs in Greek prose anyways, and when a passage's meaning does hinge on (for example) a quirky combination of particles, you consult reference works. Every scholar in academia does exactly this. Every modern translator begins by reading prior translations.
>the vocabulary
You're telling me you've never heard of flashcards or Quizlet? Vocabulary is often the easiest part of reading. The broad exceptions are usually in poetry and plays. In philosophy, you occasionally witness the birth of new language to express new ideas, so it should be just as confusing for you as it was for the contemporary audience.

>> No.17876084

Thank you for the link.

I was trying to learn German a while ago. I still want to learn it and heard indeed that it has some similarities with Greek. But, like Latin and Italian, the literature in Greek is still not surpassed. So you see my situation, I have been bouncing among these languages: Greek, Latin, German and Italian. Each of them has particular motivations. Latin and Italian attract me a lot particularly, besides the literature, because I'm a native Portuguese speaker and one of the best textbooks to learn Latin was written in Portuguese (Gramática Latina from Napoleão Mendes de Almeida). However, since I'm already unstable with learning languages, I need to decide resolutely for one and stick with it. I know I would fail to keep motivational constancy with latin at some point. Italian like French can be read directly checking unknown words. So it is Greek and German left. The former as I said allures me a bit more.

Another thing, how do I organize my resources now? Mastronarde's book is Attic Greek. I have another one from renowned Herbert Weir Smyth, now Athenaze and the Cambridge one of your previous post's picture.

>> No.17876103

Forgot to ask: what is your opinion on JACT? I have heard a lot of people talk about their courses.

>> No.17876503
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I was wondering... What do you learn languages for? Since we are on a literature board, I imagine most of you are interested in reading books in the original language, so it's mostly a training for reading. For me it's precisely so.
Am Italian and I find myself in the surprising situation of being familiar with seven languages. Suprising because, I have to confess, I only studied two of them. Namely, Latin and Greek, from my classical education over the five years of high school—in Italy called Lyceum, as the Peripatetic school ot Aristotle (though I'd prefer the Academy of Plato to be desu). In middle school I also received a smattering of French, and even though I can't remember much of the grammar, I perfectly know how to pronounce it and I'm able to read in French with the help of a dictionary. Having this solid foundation of Italian, Latin and French, the result is that I have no problem in reading Spanish and Portuguese as well. Most words are literally the same, and this is one of the most beautiful gifts of belonging to the romance sphere. Of course I'm talking about an ability that is purely pragmatic and far from a real mastery (for example I wouldn't be able to speak any of these languages) but since my only interest is in reading—to work with books and printed words—I simply don't care. I just need a dictionary at hand and I can read anything (I suppose) written in those languages. Even with Latin, I'm lucky because my personal interests lead me to Medieval and Renaissance texts more than Ancient Rome's, so everything is simpler. Christian literature in particular is easy as fuck. Ovid and Virgil... hehe, not as much. But it's fun to read the hexameters out loud. In the end the only language that is still inaccessible (again, for reading) is Greek, because it is the most difficult one. But it doesn't bother me, because if anything I would do some translation work just for fun, with short poetry mostly. And if I need to check a word in a bilingual edition of Plato or Plotinus, I know how to use the dictionary. So yeah, in summary Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Latin, Greek and English. I would love to learn German but right now I have zero time and zero energy to try... And seven is kind of a perfect number, isn't it?

>dont ask me to read any of the experimental Gruppo 63 shit or the more dialect heavy Sicilian stuff
So basically the best stuff...? You're missing out anon, improve your Italian until you can read Bufalino, Consolo and D'Arrigo. Believe me.

>any ideas? Ideally i'd have an audiobook on one screen the text on the other and could follow along
How about some sweet poetry reading? Poetry is usually read slowly and the words are marked, so that you can clearly hear the sound of each consonant and vowel. Also, the Italian used is not as easy as the every-day version of it, and this will help you enrich and expand your vocabulary. Here is an example:


>> No.17876796

I think it's more useful to practice your English prose ability, by attempting to translate the meaning of the work in Spanish. If you want to practice Spanish, just try writing about the work or summarize it in Spanish.

Good advice, but you don't want to obsess over grammar. Sometimes it's a bad habit to only focus on grammar and let other areas like vocabulary, oral/textual comprehension go down the drain.

First learn the IPA and the sounds that you struggle with and practice those. Then do shadowing, reading outloud articles or text, watching colloquial speech (on youtube). Practice having conversations as well when you get to that level.

>What do you learn languages for?
It's a hobby that's intellectually rewarding, difficult, and can be useful for wageslavery.

>> No.17876815

>It's a hobby that's intellectually rewarding
Yeah I don't understand that, or at least I would if I had time. For me it's just the sake of reading.

>> No.17876888

>What do you learn languages for?
It's fun and interesting.

>I imagine most of you are interested in reading books in the original language
I tell myself that, but not really. I always say I want to read works in the original, but it's such a slow, methodical process that I can't really enjoy it. I mostly just read short excerpts to practice a foreign language. For full works, reading a translation is much more enjoyable.

>> No.17876935


>> No.17877413

What are some languages with great literature corpus?

>> No.17878390


>> No.17878473


>> No.17879005


>> No.17879029

you are mentally ill

>> No.17879233

I have an odd collection of languages Russian, English, Arabic, Hebrew, Italian and Latin (though im still learning that last one.) All to a reasonable degree and all , again with the exception of Latin, between relationships, work, and family, in day to day use. Now i had to learn most of those but im still convinced that this ability to do so is basically an accident of birth , or just luck. My EX was extremely clever girl . She had an English and law degree, she was by far better read then i was ( she actually read a book, like a proper one, a day,) she was great at mathematics and was just in generaly a smart gal. But she was, for all mine and her efforts, completely, hopelessly monoglot. She, after 6 or 7 years, and proper textbook grind, had barely gotten to intermediate level french. I have better French, i never studied the damn thing.
Noam Chomsky is, for all his apparent expertise, bi (and maybe even mono) lingual, and yet there waiters who speak 5 languages.
Like i said, i think the whole thing is just luck.

>> No.17879248

Wow, my claim to be able to speak English is taking a beating here since i cant understand a word i've written

>> No.17879269

thanks for the advice about spanish. I suppose simply attempting to read it would prove useful in learning the language, would you agree? Then I could practice my writing by summarizing it, like you said.

>> No.17879341

How do you prevent forgetting previous languages when you are learning another one

>> No.17879411

you use them After a certain level of competence is achieved even a casual 30 min read every few days is enough to keep you up to speed

>> No.17879480

Scots language

>> No.17879619

I've always hated this retarded picture. Whatever mongoloid came up with it couldn't even read properly the misinformed wikipedia article the she used. Defining Lombard as gallo-iberian makes about as much sense as saying that polish is russo-slovak. The whole romance branch is fucked up (Sicilian is "dalmatian", corsican isn't italic...?! etc), and I suspect that there isn't much more scientific rigor in the other branches.

>> No.17879922

defining the italian always leads to some fuckery

>> No.17879926

There's not even Sardinian, which is basically a romance language by itself!

>> No.17880545

whats the easiest asian language?

>> No.17880562


>> No.17880572

Sardinian is in the pic

>> No.17880599

According to a list the FSI put out, Indonesian or Malaysian.

But in reality, it's the one you have the most interest in.

>> No.17880680

its actually a nightmare to slog through. i gave up.

>> No.17880746

Thank you for the correction, I wasn't aware of that.

You will notice that the mistake I made follows easily from the correct information that I posted along with it. Calling the language of the novels "Mandarin" is specially suspect due to the history of both the language itself and its name in the West, and it is technically not wrong to say that the novels are not in Mandarin (although it was wrong to say they're written in Classical Chinese). If the poster was asking if they were written in vernacular Chinese I wouldn't have made a comment because I simply wouldn't know.

I have no idea what problem you have with that post or that anon.

>> No.17880765

Oops you're right

>> No.17880984

one of my goals with latin is actually to start writing a journal/diary in latin

>> No.17881012

Augustine's Confessions (though it is classicizing latin), probably one of the most beautifully written books of all time.

>> No.17881797


>> No.17881906
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Lost my 321 day Duolingo streak lol

>> No.17882352

i would an hero

>> No.17882717

>using duo in the first place
you played yourself

>> No.17883289

Aside from Sanskrit, what are the most /lit/ Indian subcontinent language to learn?

>> No.17883553


>> No.17883655

one of the indo-european ones, if that counts
or Indonesian

>> No.17884098

It's somewhat like fitness. You have to spend a consistent amount of effort doing hard stuff to reap the reward. Most anons on /lit/ are probably learning just for reading literature in the original language, but it's also useful to talk to people/make friends/work (depending on where you live).


Different types of intelligence anon. Also learning your first language is much harder than your nth, especially if you know a language that's related (eg. italian and latin for french). Also your ex is fucking crazy.

Exactly. If you want to practice speaking, read the text outloud. As it's Spanish, it should be much easier than other languages, and it boosts your ability to not be a sped when talking.


Urdu or Shahmuki Punjabi. Language wise they're essentially the same as Hindi and Gurmukhi punjabi respectively, but the script is Arabic based. The pakis are known in the region for poetry.

>> No.17884117

it is. i have only read an english copy and it was still pretty though some parts of it only work in latin.

>> No.17884150

where can I practice my italian? /ita/ is a shithole

>> No.17884227

the classic way. write out millions of sentences.

>> No.17884242

Send me a letter

>> No.17884291

>tried to post in the thread of my tl on /int/
>got accused of using google translate
it hurts bros...

>> No.17884330

In my unlearned opinion, German is not like Greek: rather, the modern study of ancient Greek was organized by German scholars, so a student of each will find similarities of patterns in how they are taught. Why do you want to learn German?

Since you're Portuguese, disregard what I said about Latin and Italian entirely. Italian is almost certainly the easiest language for you to learn, and I think it would be easy to work backwards to Latin. I have no idea how approachable Almeida's textbook is, however. Moreover, the ease of learning any language depends on your motivations and enthusiasm for doing so.

As for Greek, "Athenaze" and Mastronarde's book serve the same purpose, so you could read either one, or both. Ancient Greek = Attic Greek, plus the Doric and Ionian variants (which are mostly small quirks). Biblical Greek is just an easier form of Attic Greek. Again, in my ignorant American opinion, I suspect the difference between Attic (i.e., Athenian) Greek and Doric/Ionian would be broadly similar to the difference between Northern and Southern Portuguese; the difference between Attic Greek and Homeric Greek might be similar to the difference between European and Brazilian Portuguese. But I really have no idea if that's true, it's just a guess.

Smyth is *not* a textbook; he's a reference for grammar, like the Cambridge one I posted. The Cambridge book was published in 2019(?) and is a much needed update to Smyth. But Smyth is great; people have been using him for over a century, and I wouldn't be surprised if Cambridge was wrong about some things. Regardless, you don't need to worry about Smyth or Cambridge until you've studied Mastronarde and/or Athenaze.

I hadn't heard of JACT because I'm American. Are you thinking about going to their courses in-person, or do they have some online stuff? Also, how would you recommend learning Portuguese? It's the only language I want to learn based entirely on how beautiful it sounds.

>> No.17884355

I am interested in Arabic, but solely for reading/writing purposes. Am I best off focusing on MSA, or should I learn a dialect first?

>> No.17884398

I speak 4 languages fluently. I'm majoring in a foreign language. I've taken classes on language didactics.
You are retarded and the one who's ngmi.

>> No.17884435

good french kids books?

>> No.17884476

Never read any kid's books, just read easy/graded readers anon if you can't read more advanced stuff
Also Édouard Louis and Camus are surprisingly easy to understand, it took me under 6 months of Duolingo and Youtube to be able to read them

>> No.17885406

if you learned 4 languages using only duolingo then i'm definitely ngmi

>> No.17885462

I can't remember with precision but I have impressions on my mind about people saying how German is similar or helpful to learning greek because of syntax maybe and or the cases.

>Why do you want to learn German?
Above all because of literature. I want to read Hölderlin and Novalis in the original. I heard Hölderlin is one of the least translatable of the poets (yes, I know all poetry is untranslatable to certain point). And another reason is that I find German eccentric, after all it is not a Romance language.

>Italian is almost certainly the easiest language for you to learn.
You are right, just like Spanish and French, I can easily understand some words and sentences (this in Latin is a bit more difficult). But I agree that the easiest will depend on my motivation.

>As for Greek, "Athenaze" and Mastronarde's book serve the same purpose...
Nice! I'll read both of them. As for Biblical Greek, that is exciting since one of my main literary reasons is the New Testament as well.

>you don't need to worry about Smyth or Cambridge until you've studied Mastronarde and/or Athenaze.
Good to know. I'll reserve them for later.

>Are you thinking about going to their courses in-person, or do they have some online stuff?
I think there are digitalized books of their courses on libgen/b-ok.

>how would you recommend learning Portuguese?
Honestly, I don't know how to answer this to you. You helped me so much and I cannot help you with it. I know Mendes de Almeida has a highly esteemed book on Portuguese grammar, however in Portuguese.

>> No.17886799

Don't listen to the other anon. At a beginners level you need shit that you'll understand. Start with a la recherche du temps perdu

>> No.17888191

page 10 bump go

>> No.17888196


>> No.17888203

which languages do you speak fluently, outside your native tongue?

>> No.17888222

>I've taken classes on language didactics.
>Still uses duolingo
Guess who is not gonna make it

>> No.17888257

Where's the Afro-Asiatic tree?

Not to mention Basque, Kartvelian, the meme Caucasian languages, etc, et al.

>> No.17888267

Is a language isolate, so not an Indo-European language.

>> No.17888612

is duolingo really that bad? I use it for some easy vocab, am I stupid?

>> No.17889203


>> No.17889801

It is not bad, but if you use only that, you are not going to make great progress. Do two lessons while you are shitting and then do some real stuff.

>> No.17890378


>> No.17891766

No, whoever shits on it here either hasn't used it for years (it changed a lot) or only did the first 5% of the course.
The big courses on Duolingo are so good now that they're a reasonable supplement or alternative to a textbook. But shit courses like Swahili are still trash.

>> No.17892992

my wife chino... I WANT TO FUCK CHINO
please chino is so cute my wife chino is so cute chino chan sex chino sex with chino i'd like some more kafuu chino sex with chino kafuu chino my wife cute is so chino wife

>> No.17893069

For all of those praising Duolingo, I think you should be aware that its CEO has pretty much admitted that the app isn't for learning languages:

>I recently got in touch with Luis von Ahn, a co-founder and the CEO of Duolingo, to ask whether my experience was typical. I expected some defensiveness from him about my need to use books to get the conversational skills I had hoped to get from Duolingo. But instead he laughed and told me the app had done exactly what it was built to do. “The biggest problem that people trying to learn a language by themselves face is the motivation to stay with it,” he told me. “That’s why we spend a lot of our energy just trying to keep people hooked.”
>Duolingo is essentially a product of crowdsourcing; volunteers build much of the teaching content, and the in-app behavior of its 27.5 million active monthly users is continuously analyzed to determine which exercises, sentences, and techniques lead to better adherence and faster learning. The challenge, von Ahn told me, is that the two metrics tend to be at odds: Making the lessons more difficult reliably speeds up learning—but also increases dropout rates. “We prefer to be more on the addictive side than the fast-learning side,” he explained. “If someone drops out, their rate of learning is zero.”
> ... “In the U.S., about half of our users aren’t even really motivated to learn a language; they just want to pass the time on something besides Candy Crush,” he said.

>> No.17894018


>> No.17895263


>> No.17895451

>if you don't know Latin, it's just an evolved form of Etruscan, which itself is largely a bastard proto-Greek!
That is just not true. Latin is not descended from Etruscan and Etruscan is not even Indo-European.

>> No.17895766


>> No.17895817

>Etruscan is not even Indo-European
Was it an isolate?

>> No.17896064

>What are the best grammar books for Italian?
Grammatica in contesto. Strutture e temi di italiano per stranieri con soluzioni by Gatti Fabia, Peyronell Stella.

>> No.17896068

Is it worth learning mandarin for reading?

>> No.17896803
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Scots language sub edition

>> No.17896926
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I want to learn German and bought pic related, was it a good choice? I learned some German a decade ago but I'm still an absolute beginner.

>> No.17897124

>grammar book
Now you need to complement it with some vocabulary sources.

>> No.17897221

There was a thread a few days ago where an anon talked about reading Chinese after studying the language for 4years. Apparently it's made even more difficult by the fact that most books are either heavily vernacular with dialogue in regional dialects or pompously verbose with obscure idioms & literary allusions.

Generally, I feel like it's probably a herculean task to try to read in a language using a logographic script. You're going to encounter not just specialized and obscure words, but symbols you won't even know how to pronounce, especially if you want to read older literature.

Best of luck to you if you do give it a try though

>> No.17898015

what is a relatively easy language that I can spend a small amount of time on each day? preferably european

>> No.17898047

>Sigh... i miss my qt Italian friend. She would wear loose dresses and tease me for getting things wrong. She was sweet and charming and we held hands like we were 12 years old . SHE EVEN KNEW LATIN FOR HEAVENS SAKE. I'll never find anyone like her =`(
Italian is basically Latin

>> No.17898255


>> No.17898605


>> No.17898761
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I feel like it's about time I embark on my 4th foreign language. I've already learned English, German and French.
But it's so damn hard to make up my mind, partly because I'm not sure if I'll ever start on a fifth one.

>> No.17898846

Try Latin, or go all out with an East Asian language. You have the experience.

>> No.17898871

Ancient Greek or Latin.
Italian or Spanish if you want something easy
Russian if you want something different

>> No.17898887

you've already acquired the holy trifecta of modern languages. now you must acquire the ancient trifecta: Latin, Greek, Sanskrit

>> No.17898913

What’s your original language? How long did it take you to learn these languages, and which was the hardest?

>> No.17899165

How'd you learn French and German?

>> No.17899210

I really like Korean and Russian but Japanese is appealling as well because of kanji... and I have Lingua Latina per se illustrata but I never made it past chapter 5
Native Danish, and I consider the three languages to be almost the same in terms of difficulty.
It's hard to say exactly how long it took me to learn English. But what I do know is that I thought Sims characters spoke English after two years of lessons, and after seven years someone asked me if I was from the UK after hearing me talk. So I guess I reached fluency somewhere in between those two points.
It took me two years of German lessons and a few months in a German degree (listening to the language 8 hours a day) to become fluent in German.
French took me maybe a year of daily study to get ok at.

>> No.17899239


>> No.17899240

>Take German 1 class
>skip a grade and take German 3
>have no exposure to the language outside of a few songs on a playlist for a few years
>take oral German 5 language exam and somehow pass with little preparation
>enroll in degree in German
>take 1 weekly French lesson for half a year
>don't use it for 6 years
>start studying daily: youtube videos, duolingo, grammar websites, textbooks, play skyrim in french, graded readers etc.
>transition into novels, articles, documentaries and non-fiction books

>> No.17899282

how hard is danish lads

>> No.17899290

>degree in German
Did you do an exchange year in Germany

>> No.17899328


>> No.17899371

Not yet, gonna spend a semester in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern next year

>> No.17899382

Cock and ball torture is a preferable alternative to learning Danish spelling and pronunciation. The rest isn't too bad.
t. native

>> No.17899459

To expand on this:
Danish has some awful sounds to learn like stød and Danish soft d.
The spelling is extremely illogical and inconsistent.
And even when you learn all of that shit, colloquial Danish has a bunch of extra autistic shit.
For example there's 3 consonant lengths. So just like how can have a short or long vowel, a few consonants in Danish can be short, long or autistically long.
>in "mand", "nd" is a short n like in English
>in "manden", "nden" is a long n, compoarable in length to a long vowel
>in "mændene", "nden" is an autistically long consonant, it is an n sound that is significantly longer than the n sound in "manden"

>> No.17899604

Not him but I'm greatly interested in Danish. For someone who knows both English and German, do you think it's worth learning Danish or is pretty much everything in Scandinavia already available in these languages?

>> No.17899777

It's impossible to get a good understanding of Denmark - or any culture for that matter - without understanding the local language. People don't act the way they usually do when they're speaking in a foreign language, and no translator or interpreter can fully bridge the gap between two cultures and two languages. The only way to truly understand a culture is to learn their language.
Whether it's worth it to you is something that you have to decide for yourself.

>> No.17900164

I spend 1-2 hours a day on Latin and I've already made great strides in 2 weeks. Try it if you like. Buy Gwynne's Latin though. 95% of Latin textbooks are garbage.

>> No.17900636

I've been thinking about learning Biblical (Koine) Greek so that I can have an easier transition to Attic, which is a lot more grammatical difficult and rhetorically florid. Is this a good idea? I've spent some time reading around for the best approach and some say start with Homeric or Koine or Modern Greek before getting into Attic, the final boss. I figure starting with the NT will be the best entrance since it already has a ton of scholarship/commentary, grammatically simple and written in the low sublime style as Longinus called it.

>> No.17900657

If I'm not partaking in classical studies of any kind, will learning Ancient Greek or Latin prove beneficial in any way, or would the only reason to pursue them be for the pleasure of learning?
I studied French to read books in French, but beyond the typical delight one experiences when gaining a new ability learning languages for the sake of it is not really my thing.

>> No.17900666

neither are the ones on the left, yet they are included

>> No.17900683

I did the French course on Duolingo for about a year. Then I moved on to listening to podcasts, and now I am able to read Camus and Jules Verne with confidence.
It does help that I'm fluent in both English and Spanish, which made learning the structures and the vocabulary exceptionally easy.

>> No.17900697

>will learning Ancient Greek or Latin prove beneficial in any way
Unless you want to become a scholar or a doctor, for getting medical terms down easily, or a lawyer, for legal terms, no.
As for me, it's an enjoyable hobby to spend time and for exercises in logic. Kind of like some people enjoy mountain climbing, shitposting, fishing, doing crossword puzzles etc. Not everyone has to be into it.

>> No.17900865

How do I get started on classical Greek? Is there any comprehensive list/guide of resources?

>> No.17900902

I'm not an expert, but this is generally not advised. If you want both, learning Attic Greek first is generally preferred; the transition from Attic to Koine is very easy but the converse is not, and Homeric can be considered a dialect of Attic.

Certainly do not start with Modern Greek unless you are otherwise interested in Modern Greek. Surprisingly, until recently most classicists in the UK knew Modern Greek, but there is zero inter-intelligibility, little shared vocabulary, completely different phonetics and radically different grammar. I'm a native Modern Greek and know a little Ancient Greek; the difference is about as extreme as between English and Old English.

>> No.17900999

Hmmm interesting. I got the ideas from a few sources, one being from a German guy who discovered the ruins of Troy in the 19th ce, and another from a contemporary scholar named Christophe Rico. The first said to start with Modern Greek and work your way back and the second said to start with Koine. I'll probably take your advice and not be a pussy about it. Might as well begin with the hardest so the acquisition of the rest becomes 10x easier. Thanks.

>> No.17901015

Anyone here learnt Modern Standard Arabic? How was your experience, how long did it take you, and are you able to speak to native Arabic speakers

>> No.17901064

I don't think it has been linked to anything.

>> No.17901076

Native Arab here. All Arabs speak in their own regional dialect. Good luck getting any Arab to take you seriously speaking to them in MSA. The equivalent would be someone coming up to you and speaking to you in KJV English. MSA is pretty sterile and not worth learning anyway. I suggest learning Qur'anic Arabic because its the most sublime. Nearly all good Arabic poetry was written during that time-period anyway (although most of it is very difficult even for natives).

>> No.17901091

Having said that, MSA is a good foundation to have before tackling Qur'anic Arabic. If you're relatively fluent in MSA then you won't have much trouble with Qur'anic Arabic.

>> No.17901115

Aren't news sources and formal things in MSA?

>> No.17901121

Learn to Read Greek from the Yale University Press
Italian Athenaze by Luigi Miraglia
Griechischer Lehrgang by Günther Zuntz

Pick any you like, I personally started with LTRG. You can use Athenaze and Zuntz as readers later on.

>> No.17901216

Yeah that's essentially the only thing MSA is used for. Do you really want to learn a language just to read the newspaper?

>> No.17901223

I can do my latin noun declension tables off by heart, bros it actually seems possible I could learn latin..

>> No.17901231

I suggest watching both vids. Lots of useful info for deciding.

Review of the UK and Italian Athenaze

Review of alternative textbooks for Ancient Greek

>> No.17901247

Thanks anon. I'm thinking of starting off with LTRG and maybe Athenaze if I feel its necessary afterwards.

>tfw still on the first and second declension adjectives

>> No.17901253
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How long does it take to learn japanese if I study every day?

>> No.17901289

About 2500 hours of dedicated study. There is so shortcut, but it can still be fun. I did it for Chinese with graded readers, (physical) flashcards, and audiotapes.

That said, to really make it all stick, you need to make friends or be a part of a community with native speakers, which is the best way to motivate yourself to learn. I have written/chatted/talked to/with the same Chinese girl every day for about 2 years and I consider us to be good friends now (though I don't have any intention of actually meeting her in real life), so I never want to do things like leave one of her messages unread for too long or not keep an equal balance of English and Chinese (so we both benefit from the exchange).

You need to be about B1/B2 level before this really starts to work though, but you can make real friends who you'll really start to care about if you keep at it, and it's absolutely the greatest motivation to get better. I am always excited to show that I have, e.g. covered a blind spot in my vocabulary or made a little guide to help her with an English structure that she struggles with. It has guided me into doing far more "practice" than I ever would if I were only motivated by the general idea of fluency, rather than the lure of making a genuine connection with someone whom I actually like and find interesting.

No one in these threads ever seems to point out this strategy, which I find confounding, because it's the easiest way to "trick" yourself into using your target language for hours a day.

>> No.17901291

this guy did it in 1.5 years while working part time and going to uni

>> No.17901313
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The only language I know aside of my mattern one (castilian) is the english language. I have never read a book in english; all I know is thank to internet videos and web pages.

Most of my reading material is in spanish; the only thing made out of paper, with english words printed on it, was a manual for electron tubes.

I don't know what to read in english. Something british or american? idk.

I love to read texts from the classic Rome.

Can you anons recommend me something?

>> No.17901324

How much does watching anime for half a decade help? I can understand a large chunk of Japanese from that alone now.

>> No.17901330

Read something like The Great Gatsby or The Old Man and the Sea to give you the confidence to approach longer, more difficult works in English. They are mostly simple to read and have interesting themes to mull over.

The Great Gatsby is a genuinely good book - don't let anyone else tell you otherwise, even though it's read in 9th Grade English classes in the US.

>> No.17901331

between hebrew and arabic, which one is better?

>> No.17901337

Thank you so much! I wasn't expecting such good answer. Where did you find that girl? I hope I can make japanese friends one day as well, unfortunately looks like a lot of the major japanese social media, foruns and textboards are not available for westerners.
Amazing, I'll definitely watch it.

>> No.17901341

How useful is input, really?

>> No.17901343

its no meme

>> No.17901357

I don't know - as I said I did this with Chinese, not Japanese, but both are considered to take about 2500 hours of dedicated study to get moderately "fluid", if not "fluent", in. I do watch Chinese cartoons and their soap operas and I can confirm that after a certain point, watching TV that is at or just beyond your level is one of the best ways to retain your ability and gradually increase it. That said, you need to produce in the language to get good. Passive knowledge is less solid than it often feels, in a way that's hard to explain.

>> No.17901380
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thank you. I've just read the argument of the novel and seems pretty good. I'll buy it.

>> No.17901381

So are there one or two dialects I should learn in order to be able to converse with most Arabs?

>> No.17901419

No, you can't. You just understand random words that are thrown every once in a while.

>> No.17901421

>Where did you find that girl?
I found her on HelloTalk, which is a legitimately great way to find people to become friends with. If you look up "language exchange" you might find other services that are just as good, but I can attest that I have had success with HelloTalk more than the other 2 or 3 I tried.

Just beware of women who have highly air-brushed photos, mostly because they are never interesting people. The one I talk to is in medical school in China and is just totally obviously brilliant, funny, and well-read, and it took a long time, and starting and ending a lot of chats with different people, until I found her. As an aside, I had no preference for male/female, it just happens that 95%+ of the people in China on that app are female.

>> No.17901472

You wanna fuck her, be honest mate.

>> No.17901485

She is ugly - no matter how beautiful her mind is, I will never, ever be attracted to her. If she were even remotely attractive, I would fuck her in a minute, obviously. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

>> No.17901497

What matters is what's on the inside. You'll have a hard time finding another girl like her again.

>> No.17901536

That's true. I have dreams about her voice sometimes and wake up with an acute sense of longing, but always for someone attractive who has her qualities, but never her. Such is life.

I had a similar situation with a girlfriend who was the only funny woman I've ever met - I was absolutely in love with her, but she wasn't notably attractive, never wore makeup, and I thought my patrician family would think I had no game and couldn't get a more attractive girl if I stayed with her. So I intentionally Kierkegaarded her until she broke up with me. Very painful. I dream about her sometimes, too. Such is life.

>> No.17901703

I used to think like that. Now I'm 27 and single, I live my days regretting the times that I had those intelligent uglies in the palm of my hands, such is life indeed. I hope you're still young. Good night.

>> No.17902396

Is it a good idea to learn some basic Latin if I'm in a foreign language degree and I'm interested in French and Italian?
By that I mean working my way through a textbook for beginners and maybe the Duolingo course but not pursuing it much beyond that.

>> No.17902506

The FSI, which trains American diplomats, estimates it takes about 2200hours to reach basic fluency in the most difficult category of languages, and within that group Japanese is marked as especially difficult. Keep in mind, that people taking their courses usually already know at least one foreign language and are normally highly motivated.
So the other anon's estimate of 2500 hours is probably quite accurate. If you spend around 2 hours learning every day, you should reach that level in about 3 years.

Beyond that, the question is obviously what you want to do with Japanese. Just watching anime or reading some manga should be pretty doable but if you want to read actual literature, it will probably be quite a bit harder.

>> No.17902512

It will help with vocab considering that a lot of Latin words went into those languages with either little or some spelling changes. It will also help with grammar in general and how subjunctives are used, e.g. the Latin purpose and fear clauses, and many others, that require the subjunctive conjugations made its way into both of those languages as well as the -ss- for the imperfect subjunctive (Latin: amavisses, Fr: que tu aimasses, It: che tu amassi).
Despite that, you can't just dip your toes into Latin and expect to get much out of it. You'll have to put yourself through hell but the other side is smooth sailing.

>> No.17902528

Shit, I meant the pluperfect subjunctive for Latin -ss- was kept in both the Fr. and It. imperfect subjunctive.

>> No.17902563

Learning Russian at snail’s pace. Is it worth learning just to read old books?

>> No.17902610

Getting back into Latin after years of neglect. Surprised by how much I've retained.

>> No.17902637

Do you realise how long it takes to learn a language well enough to be able to enjoy and appreciate reading old literature?
Keep at it but find other uses and goals as well or you're gonna burn out.

>> No.17902662
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>sister and her bf are engineers
>they completely neglected foreign languages in high school and college
>now that they're working they keep getting emails and calls in German
>the bf also has to deal with Latin Americans and Arabs who speak shitty English all the time
>the bf announces that he is going to learn Spanish
>he gives up after two weeks of Duolingo

>> No.17902695

I’ve been on and off learning Russian for years. I don’t see any other media that’s worthwhile or a convenient use case like other languages that people like learning, like Spanish or Japanese. You’re right about burning out, though.

>> No.17902954

duolingo and its consequences have been a disaster for language learning

>> No.17903020

Have any of the Latinists here read Jordanes? I'm greatly interested in his writings but I don't want to contaminate my Latin by reading him too early on. Or is his Latin close enough to Classical that it would be alright?

>> No.17903287


>> No.17903289

What the last guy said. Latin can be pretty hellish at first, but once you’ve got the grammar down and a decent chunk of the vocabulary it will be childs play.

There’s no point in learning “basic” Latin, especially if you’re only doing it to learn other languages. You’ll be overwhelmed by the grammar in the first few weeks, having learned basically nothing at the end of it. The languages of Europe today have relatively little in common with Latin grammar, so it won’t help you there either.

Unless you want to go all in it’s not worth it, because “basic” Latin is largely just the vocabulary and a few hundred common words, which won’t help you with anything else. If you actually continue with the language it will help you learn just about any other European language, not just Romance languages. And you’ll have over 2,000 years of literature to read.

Also Duolingo for Latin is basically useless. The grammar explications are basically non-existent, a lot of the vocabulary is odd to say the least, and it takes you through the material far to quickly. Duolingo is okay for French or German (still wouldn’t suggest using it for those languages either), but useless for something like Latin.

>> No.17903491

Why does every hate on Duolingo

>> No.17903569

>I recently got in touch with Luis von Ahn, a co-founder and the CEO of Duolingo, to ask whether my experience was typical. I expected some defensiveness from him about my need to use books to get the conversational skills I had hoped to get from Duolingo. But instead he laughed and told me the app had done exactly what it was built to do. “The biggest problem that people trying to learn a language by themselves face is the motivation to stay with it,” he told me. “That’s why we spend a lot of our energy just trying to keep people hooked.”
>Duolingo is essentially a product of crowdsourcing; volunteers build much of the teaching content, and the in-app behavior of its 27.5 million active monthly users is continuously analyzed to determine which exercises, sentences, and techniques lead to better adherence and faster learning. The challenge, von Ahn told me, is that the two metrics tend to be at odds: Making the lessons more difficult reliably speeds up learning—but also increases dropout rates. “We prefer to be more on the addictive side than the fast-learning side,” he explained. “If someone drops out, their rate of learning is zero.”
> ... “In the U.S., about half of our users aren’t even really motivated to learn a language; they just want to pass the time on something besides Candy Crush,” he said.

Even it’s creator admits that Duolingo isn’t much better than most addictive games like “Candy Crush”, and that it’s a bad way to learn languages.

At best Duolingo is for people with little to no motivation to learn a language. It’s main focus (as stated by its creator) is to hook you in and get you addicted, even if this means sacrificing efficiency.

Serious language learners look for the most effecient and comprehensive ways to learn their language, even if that method doesn’t excite that little rat part of our brain whenever we get free dopamine from clicking jems, or flashing lights.

Having used Duolingo in the past, now having moved onto exercise books I can tell you that the books are a lot more fun, fulfilling, not to mention efficient.

Duolingo is the language equivalent of McDonalds. Cheap, easy, low effort. Textbooks and real learning material is the high effort meal you make at home. It take longer to make, it’s more frustrating, but it tastes a lot better, is more fulfilling, and significantly healthier.

Even the worst textbook is going to be better than Duolingo, because that book was actually made for people to learn the language, while Duolingo was made to get people into an addictive cycle of dopamine hits, and is constantly being updated to make it a less efficient learning tool.

>> No.17903628

If you’re a serious language learner with even a shred of self discipline Duolingo is a complete waste of time. If you fall into the category of people the app was made for, lazy brainlets with no passion for learning languages, you should just quit, because you can’t learn any language with self discipline and passion.

Not to mention that Duolingo completely ignores, or at least brushes aside grammar, I suppose because it’s not fum or addicting. The last time I checked the mobile version doesn’t even give you the option to see the grammar. All it gives you is random vocabulary in an artificial context that no French, German, Spanish, etc person would actually say.

If you want to know an effective method to learn a language I’ve personally been writing out ~60-70 words in Latin for 14 reparations all throughout the day.

I create a list of some 65 or something words the day before, then the second that I wake the next day I write each of them out in Latin 5 times, hiding the Latin words so that I can only see the English to test myself. Then I do it 2 times from Latin into English right after lunch, another 5 times after dinner, and another 2 before I make my list for the next day and go to bed. I also do grammar work from my textbook for at least 2-3 hours a day.

It’s not “fun” in the same way Duolingo is, there are no green birds telling me to catch up with my lessons, or flashing gems, or congratulation noises, or even bright colours, but I’m not a fucking brainlet who needs constant lab rat style stimulation to do 20 minutes of Spanish, French, etc a day before pating myself on the back for pulling my eyes away from pornhub for more than 5 seconds to something marginally more productive.

Get serious with your language learning, or GTFO. You won’t learn anything from Duolingo, and even if you do you’ll be miles behind serious language learning.

>> No.17903778

They all either:
>used Duolingo several years ago when it was way different
>tried one of the trash courses like Swahili or Hebrew
>only finished the first 5% of the course
>wasn't a beginner when they started it
It's kind of funny for me as a polyglot who's used Duolingo for one of my languages to see people seethe so much about a website that's not much different from other language ressources.
Like look at this dude >>17903628, he seethes about there being no grammar in the app but it's been there for ages and they even have dedicated grammar lessons now that are 100% focused on grinding stuff like verb conjugations into your brain.

>> No.17903885
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Today I woke up at 5:15AM and studied languages from 5:30 to 8AM, then I went for a jog while listening to a French podcast.
Maybe I should try making it a habit - except going to the gym instead of jogging when the lockdown ends.

>> No.17904075

Yes you should anon

>> No.17904117

How can you not hate a product by the inventors of reCAPTCHA, i.e. forced labour for the google overlords?

>> No.17904124

Any advice on acquiring new vocabulary at an intermediate to advanced level?

I keep looking through word frequency lists, only to find that I know the vast majority of words there.

>> No.17904127

>Duolingo is the language equivalent of McDonalds. Cheap, easy, low effort. Textbooks and real learning material is the high effort meal you make at home. It take longer to make, it’s more frustrating, but it tastes a lot better, is more fulfilling, and significantly healthier.
This is a perfect analogy, I'll definitely use this when the topic arises.

>> No.17904137

all that analogy did was make me want a big mac

>> No.17904148

For what language?
I personally studied multiple languages with a small stock of frequently used words at the beginning and then moved onto mining native content in addition to whatever popped up in class and in textbooks.
I also think that once you're at an intermediate level you should ditch translations and define your new words using a monolingual dictionary, which will also yield a lot of related vocabulary.

>> No.17904163
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Is learning grammar really more important than vocabulary? Also act any tips for learning French grammar

>> No.17904189


Both are important. Honestly grammar isn’t as hard as it’s made out to be. Focus on grammar for the first month or so and you should have most of it down. After that you can almost exclusively work on vocabulary.

>> No.17904207

italian word order always fucks me up when reading because it's so free compared to english

>> No.17904248

my wife chino... I WANT TO FUCK CHINO
please chino is so cute my wife chino is so cute chino chan sex chino sex with chino i'd like some more kafuu chino sex with chino kafuu chino my wife cute is so chino wife

>> No.17904379

Puoi sempre sperimentare un po', al "costo" di sembrare poetico.

>> No.17904541

No. Almost every Arab country has its own dialect. Iraq has one, the Gulf states have their own, the Levant has its own, Egypt has its own, the other NA states have their own, and on top of that there are minor differences all over the place.

>> No.17904628

Fuck it I’ll just learn the gulf dialect

>> No.17904689

Its the least aesthetic dialect arguably and in any case there's no formalized guide on how to learn an Arabic dialect. Just learn MSA and then Qur'anic Arabic and then you can into whatever dialect you like.

>> No.17904965

Ironic considering how copying someone else's argument is the argumentation equivalent of McDonalds. Cheap, easy, low effort. Real discussion and original thought is the high effort meal you make at home. It take longer to make, it’s more frustrating, but it tastes a lot better, is more fulfilling, and significantly healthier.

>> No.17904974

>Just learn MSA and then Qur'anic Arabic and then you can into whatever dialect you like.
Thanks anon I’ll do that

>> No.17905059

He wasn’t making an argument you tard, he was just agreeing with mine.

Fuck off. You’re the one shiting up the board, not him.

>> No.17905157

he said he was going to use your comment... which is what I commented on

>> No.17905817

Qur'anic Arabic will be pretty easy to ease into once you've learned MSA so don't be too daunted by it. Just like how someone who's fluent in English can most likely read and understand KJV.

>> No.17905861

Im learning german. I had to choose between french and german and went with german. I dont like it at all. How do i make it easier? Is it worth it? Any books that will help me learn and are eady to read for a beginner in the language?

>> No.17906039

I think Old Man and the Sea would be a great first book like the other anon suggested. It’s a very short novel written by Hemingway, who loved Hispanic culture.

>> No.17906200

Shoulda chose français tbqhwy

>> No.17906440

Why don't you like it?
If you can still switch you might want to consider taking on French which is the more "useful" language anyway.

>> No.17906451

I’d say French is a more important language for literature

>> No.17906643

cope, duolingo has had conjugation charts and lessons dedicating to drilling verb tenses for a while now. it’s barely any different than your autismo “reparations.” you should use duolingo to practice your english

>> No.17906706

>duolingo has had conjugation charts and lessons dedicating to drilling verb tenses
proof? I have never seen this

>> No.17906756

Doesn't matter though since there awkward sentences and translations in nearly all upper-level lessons in the languages I checked recently.
The "writing a couple words a dozen times per day" certainly is even less productive however.

>> No.17906788

What’s the best way then O wise polyglot

>> No.17906797
File: 73 KB, 640x1136, 5DEBDDF5-D833-4A88-8131-BF4882C39221.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

sure thing
this might be only available in the popular languages. now they also gradually introduce irregular verbs throughout the course and make you drill them

>> No.17906811

just finish all the levels of duo and you're at C2, voila (that's french btw)

>> No.17906822

Good question, I have no good answer.
It depends on the language you're learning, the languages you speak and for what purpose you're learning the language.

For example I learned more Russian with flashcards and a travel phrasebook in a week than I did on a 50-day Duolingo streak.
On the other hand I can image that one might be able to get into good habits by checking into Duolingo for 5 minutes to keep up with your friends or the leaderboard and then reading some /lit/ at your level in the target language.

>> No.17906897

>I can image that one might be able to get into good habits by checking into Duolingo
exactly, the point of duolingo is to make language learning a habit. I finished the rough Italian course and then started learning on my own by reading, starting with the Hobbit. i didn’t have to write down words a gorillion times a day to achieve a decent level

>> No.17906944

damn, this is genuinely impressive for that app

>> No.17906995

Have you guys ever went through an edgy teenage phase where you wanted to translate morbid works like les chants de Maldoror, because you thought it was cool?

Because I haven't.
(I remember back in 2005 that I couldn't find a translation anywhere so I thought to do it myself. My french was shit and still is)

>> No.17907027

>write down words a gorillion times a day
>500-day duo streak
ngmi as well

>> No.17907087

>500 day duo streak
took me less than 6 months to complete
already made it by reading books in my target lang

>> No.17907128

>500 day
>6 months
can you read

>> No.17907245

How you still shit at French 15 years on nigga I thought WAGMI

>> No.17907255

You can finish the course in short time if you’re that way inclined dumb ass

>> No.17907276

thats different to a 500 day streak you faggot

>> No.17907321

مساء الخير, كيف حالك يا شباب؟
انا متعب وعندي صداع الأن للاسف

>> No.17907356

I had to choose between german, french and spanish. I understand spanish since im portuguese even if im not fluent. German seemed more important for work related affairs. Im in the second semester of the first year of uni. I have to think about if i wanna change or not but i would lose a year of french and im not sure if i would be able to find my footing. I dont like german mostly because it's very different from portuguese and english. Im not sure if it's actually the best way but i started with grammar right away so i dont know much vocabulary and im really struggling to keep up with the grammar.

>> No.17907462

Ahlan wa sahlan brozzer are you learning for religious reasons

>> No.17907708

لا ، أدرس اللغة لأن هي ممتعة فقط
Though, if I keep listening to Mufti Menk it might also be for religious reasons.

>> No.17908134

I'm probably at an upper intermediate level of French. Should I read small children's books (which ones?) or slightly wordier things like Petit Nicolas?

>> No.17908142


>> No.17908683

If it's just for reading writing then MSA is good base

>> No.17908738

I heard Camus is pretty good for beginners

>> No.17908765

if you're at that level, get a kindle and start reading actual /lit/. The insta dictionary function will smooth out any holes with unknown vocab and you can also read it with an English translation (example, read one chapter in English then reread it in French). I used to do this and after a handful of novels I didn't need the translation anymore.

>> No.17909092

/lit/ is for the discussion of literature, specifically books (fiction & non-fiction), short stories, poetry, creative writing, etc. If you want to discuss history, religion, or the humanities, go to /his/. If you want to discuss politics, go to /pol/.

>> No.17909172

books in french for beginners:
>Le Tour du monde en 80 jours
>Hygiène de l'assassin
>Monsieur Ibrahim et les fleurs du Coran
>Extension du domaine de la lutte
>L'Enfant noir
>La planète des singes
>La petite fille de Monsieur Linh
>Stupeur et tremblements
>La nuit des temps

extra (only read if you must):
>Harry Potter à l'école des sorciers (Harry Potter, #1)
>Harry Potter et la Chambre des Secrets (Harry Potter, #2)
>Harry Potter et le prisonnier d'Azkaban (Harry Potter, #3)
>Harry Potter et la Coupe de Feu (Harry Potter, #4)
and so on and so forth

if youre going to criticize this list for being pleb, know that you have to start somewhere to get to the so-called classics of french literature

>> No.17909214

Merci beaucoup mon ami

>> No.17909341
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What’s the best kindle for this

>> No.17909443

I got the kindle fire 7hd a couple of years back. You can dl multiple classics for free on the kindle or email pirated ones from libgen, dl multiple dictionaries, either monolingual or french to english, and it has a text to speech option that isn't too bad. idk about the new ones.

>> No.17909819

Best resources for Italian and German?

>> No.17910540

Watching anime with english subtitles gives you minimal passive immersion but doesn't do a whole lot beyond that. Also, most anime is aimed at children so the language level is extremely simplified. Furthermore, the field of 'expertise' of a lot of anime is slice of life, so you can be insulated into hearing the same shit over and over again. I've been studying for maybe ~20 months very on and off, intentionally slowly (Modified RTK (~1,500 kanji) + a bit of immersion (nowhere near enough) + tango N5/N4 anki decks + ~1,000 cards into sentence mining anime) and I can understand maybe 60%+ of something like Bakuman (building expertise in a specific field, i.e drawing / manga terminology), but I can understand maybe only ~10% of japanese news.

If you really think you've learned something then start watching anime with Japanese subs or no subs at all. I seriously doubt with minimal or no study you would really understand anything, although having half a decade of passive immersion is better than nothing at all. Matt vs Japan / Refold is a very good resource on the immersion stuff. I'm pretty much sold on it if you look at any of the interviews he does with people (which another anon already replied with) / the input hypothesis in general. The route I followed has since been streamlined by him so it'd be even easier now.

The main thing I've followed is never making it a chore. I'll do one anki card a day if that's what it takes, or just do my reps if I'm super busy. I've avoided immersion so far because it's very tedious in the beginning, but now that I have far more comprehension I'm dialling it up (since it's no longer such a chore). In a way Japanese is the easiest language to learn for weebs, despite its technical difficulty, since there's so much long form media to immerse in.

>> No.17911245


>> No.17911251

do you think kanji will fall out of use in japan?

>> No.17911266


>> No.17911308

No, in fact there's a trend for less common characters to enter common usage again thanks to digitised communication that doesn't require accurate memorisation.

>> No.17911381

The average Japanese has more trouble reading common western words (like rum or hamburger) in the Latin alphabet than reading rarely and slightly tricky kanji.

>> No.17911474

I hate the subjunctive

>> No.17912494

Which language?

>> No.17912765


>> No.17913430


>> No.17913593

Nel parlato, talora viene usato l'indicativo al suo posto. Tuttavia, una sostituzione troppo frequente (almeno da parte di un madrelingua) non è vista di buon occhio, perché sintomo di povertà di articolazione del linguaggio.

>> No.17913952

How much has Italian changed over the past 200 years? 300?

>> No.17914122

I'm unsure how much the language has, but I'm retty sure that pre 1918 barely anyone spoke standard italian

>> No.17914203
File: 114 KB, 618x515, Screenshot.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

somewhat, still essentially comprehensible for a native but with some quirks and archaisms, as well as different style

>> No.17915128


>> No.17915240

Any resources for learning written Chinese?

>> No.17915480

Anything interesting written in the dialects?

>> No.17915738

There's only like 2200+ that you need to know. I've learned 3000+ Chinese characters and still encounter 5 a day that I don't know. It never ends.

>> No.17915770

just re-read your favorite book that was translated from english. that would be a good start.

>> No.17915804

As the other guy said, they literally only share a script, and the similarities end there.

>> No.17915866

How easy is it to learn the Romance Languages once you've gained a sufficient grasp of Latin?

>> No.17916426

Italian is probably pretty easy. Grammatically simpler than Latin, though much of the lexicon is from vulgar rather than formal Latin.

>> No.17916693

ancient greek or modern greek guise?

>> No.17916734

Start with Koine
>The student who decides to learn Greek will find many reasons to start with Koine. First, the relative simplicity of that dialect. Koine grammar is much simpler than other Greek dialects. Once mastered, it facilitates cognitive transfers that enable the student to read Attic or Ionian texts, as well.
>Koine is in fact the most useful of all Greek dialects, being by far the best attested. More than ninety per cent of ancient Greek texts are written in Koine.
>the importance of Koine goes well beyond the foundational texts of western civilization. Many post-classical authors have deeply influenced western culture, either historians (Polybius, Diodorus Siculus, Josephus, Arrian) or orators (Libanius), either novelists (Longus, Chariton, Achilles Tatius) or biographers (Plutarch), either literary critics (the unknown author of the treatise On the Sublime) or rhetoricians (Demetrius). All the philosophers that came in Plato's wake, whether Epicureans, Stoics, Neoplatonicians or Sceptics, wrote in Koine

>> No.17917437

>how hard is danish lads

Jeg ærgrer mig rigtig meget over det
Hvad skal vi have til middag?

[jɑ aːʊɐ mɑ ʁækti mɑːð ɒʊˀɐ te]
[ʋa ska ʋi ha tse meta]

You non natives never had a chance lmao

>> No.17917457

It makes learning them a bit easier. The verb system is greatly reduced and the endings are similar enough to Latin that you don't even have to really memorize them. Vocabulary is naturally a non issue for the most part too. Still, they still have their idioms and quirks that make them a challenge to learn, like any language, so don't make the mistake of thinking that they're just "simplified Latin" or whatever.

>> No.17917546

we mix stød and consonant length as well, to add to the confusion. I keep it in IPA for obvious reasons

mand - [manˀ]
manden - [manˀn̩]
mændene - [mɛnˀn̩nə]

bonde - [bɔnə]
bundne - [bɔnnə]
bundene - [bɔnn̩nə]

>> No.17917616


[ɑːɑɑɑ] in Sara arrangerer
[ɑːˀɑɑɑ] in forklarer arrangementet
[ɑːɑɑɑɑ] in rarere arrangement
[ɑːˀɑɑɑɑ] in forsvarere arrangerer


>> No.17917649

ok you've convinced me danish is pretty based

>> No.17918537


>> No.17919018

Anything good written in Italian and French dialects?

>> No.17920227 [DELETED] 


>> No.17920517

Russian or Chinese? I have been leaning towards Russian but the amount of literature in Chinese history is staggering.

>> No.17920721

sicilian poetry

>> No.17920825

Keep in mind a lot of it is written in Classical Chinese which is very different from modern Mandarin. Plus, you would likely encounter a lot of uncommon/archaic symbols when you read older literature that is actually in Mandarin.

Meanwhile, basically all noteworthy Russian literature was written in the last 200 years.

>> No.17920965


>> No.17920988

>French dialects
the Occitan troubadours
source? interested to read more about this

>> No.17921837


>> No.17921892

>I dont like german mostly because it's very different from portuguese and english.
it's not that different, from english, I mean. A fluent english speaker after living a couple of months in Germany will be able to fully understand the natives, as long as he's motivated and makes the effort, and the key is the german's association with english

>> No.17923289


>> No.17923319

Caesar's Gallic War.

>> No.17924398

>French (...) is the more "useful" language anyway.
What makes you think so?

>> No.17925264

I didn't feel I was making any progression for the last 1-2months when I tried to learn European Portuguese. I downloaded stuff from the torrents and used memrise as much as I could but the fact I can never understand anything - even memes just kills me and I gave up.
How do I get back into it. How do people teach themselves I just do not understand

>> No.17925723

Depends on your level really. Good beginner/early intermediate are Augustine, Caesar, and the Vulgate. From there you should move on to Pliny, Ovid and Cicero. Vergil and Horace are for when you're not fucking around anymore. And if you want to go balls to the wall and hang with the best of them, you go to Tacitus. Fucking Tacitus is a trip, man. Makes me sweat just thinking about it.

>> No.17925729

Also, you should really prioritize classical. If you learn classical well then you will never struggle reading Vulgar and Medieval latin. But if you do the opposite, you will always struggle with classical. It's the same principle with classical/attic Greek vs. Koine or any literary vs. common language really. Set your standards higher, so that even if you seemingly fail to meet them, where you fall will be sufficient enough.

>> No.17925735

uh oh, someone did Duolingo and gave up after not being able to say anything more than "my sister buys bread from the convenient store today"

>> No.17926268


>> No.17926424

Number one, learning a language to any decent level is something that IS going to take you at least 6 months to a year to do, depending on how good your methods are and how long you study for it could take you slightly less or more time, but 6-12 months is the average. Don't expect to read much of anything before the 6 month mark.

Two, get good resources. Stop using Duolingo. Pimsler, Memoriese, etc. Get a book like the Assimil series, a dictionary, a book form of a 1000, 2000, etc most common word list, and once you're ready a reader designer specifically for learners.

Study for AT LEAST TWO HOURS A DAY or more, and by the end of this year you'll probably be at a B1, oreven B2 level.

>> No.17926617

What are some good resources for learning Russian? I tried for months about a year ago and barely got anywhere. I want to learn the language to read mostly, I don't care much about learning to speak it.
I'm perfectly fluent in both French and English, but I learned those from exposure alone, and with Russian I don't think that's really possible.

>> No.17926728

new bread?

>> No.17926730

>The FSI, which trains American diplomats, estimates it takes about 2200hours to reach basic fluency in the most difficult category of languages,
No. The infograph you see actually indicates class time. If you look at the FSI's own publications and observations, you're supposed to double it with self study time, so it really takes about 4k h.

>people taking their courses usually already know at least one foreign language
No they don't, at least nowhere near really fluent. Most FSIs barely took a second language like spanish seriously in school.

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