/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18017835]

Why did Marx assume that proletarians of all countries would be willing to work together?

Why would the worker in America or France fight for the rights of workers in Africa or Asia, rather than get a comfy job from the local capitalist?

[Anonymous No.18017864]

Probably because you have much more in common with a random working schlub from across the world than you do with the rich guy a few blocks away

[Anonymous No.18017876]

>>18017835
Marx didn't assume specifically that proletarians of all countries would be willingly working together.
Rather, he assumed that the continuing development of capitalism would necessitate the communist revolution, thus a paradigmatic shift in how the economy is organized. Marx considered the state and government to be a simple extension of the economy/property rights. Therefore, an economic shift would also necessitate a political shift. Once a communist economic system has been established, property rights become irrelevant and therefore also the government, leading to its gradual abolition.

[Anonymous No.18017887]

>>18017864
And at the end of the day, I am competing with the schlub across the work for the same work.
The rich guy across the block will build his factory either here or in India. Why should I work with the indian worker, rather than cut a deal with the local porky?

[Anonymous No.18017921]

>>18017887
Because then there’s two of you and one of him

[Anonymous No.18017929]

>>18017876
>Rather, he assumed that the continuing development of capitalism would necessitate the communist revolution

[Anonymous No.18017941]

>>18017835
class consciousness

[Anonymous No.18017994]

>>18017876
This. Also remember it was a very post nationalist "feeling" era, it palpably felt like the collective hypocrisy and stagnation of the old monarchies and floundering aristocratic elites was giving way to the bourgeoisie, and the bourgeoisie was (and still is) so inept and petty that nobody really believed they could or should inherit the destiny of the great European peoples.

Everything was in flux around 1870-1900, nations seemed more factitious than ever (being founded and refounded, stitched together and falling apart again, being undermined by farcical revolutions), and intellectuals like Marx were easily able to hop between three or four of them in rapid succession to organise with other workers. The world and its old institutions suddenly seemed small and the working man seemed large by comparison. It was easy enough to think an organisation like the International, properly structured, would build up to a general working class separatism. The general strike remained plausible, and could probably have stopped WW1 if it they had done it, until WW1. Then it failed miserably.

Then factor in the fact that the German SPD was an enemy of the state in Germany, and as a result, a state within a state. Bismarck hated it and that created enormous solidarity. Being part of working class organisations wasn't just a side thing, it was a way of life, your whole family and neighbourhood and all your friends were in on it in some way or another. Just like the pariah Catholics before them, the pariah Socialists had their own assocaitions, their own way of life and sense of self. If any country was going to have a true social revolution and overturn the shame of failed revolutions like 1848, it was going to be Germany, and that model could be exported. It must have been very exciting to be a Marxist in the 1880s and 1890s, and both exciting and scary between 1900-1920, but after that it's all heartbreak and discouragement.

Marx couldn't have anticipated how differently things ended up going. The SPD and the whole socialist "worldview" simply got absorbed into post-war bourgeois society, which opened the door to prosperity just enough to keep the workers happy. Bernstein was right that reform was a powerful possibility but he was deathly wrong that it could be harnessed by the working class. Reform was only allowed by the state insofar as it didn't fundamentally upset bourgeois social relations, which were completely hardened and seemed invincible by the mid 20th century. (exactly as Marx said such ossifications occur). The general strike was really the last shot at a true Marxian revolution beyond Bolshevism.

Now the managerial class, the even more evil successor of the bourgeoisie, know people are still spellbound by Marxism and think that a "return" to strategies thought up for the conditions of fucking 1875 are the way out of this mess. So they secretly promote nostalgia for "pure" Marxism so people will LARP as 19th century throwbacks.

[Anonymous No.18018045]

>>18017994
Why do you consider the managerial class evil? I guess as an engineer, I am a member of the managerial class, but I fail to see how I am the bad guy here.

[Anonymous No.18018706]

>>18017876
Couldn’t have said it better myself.

[Anonymous No.18018720]

>>18017835
>marxists created the idea of "labor aristocracy" to cope with this not happening

[Anonymous No.18018729]

>>18017835
Because he was a typical ivory tower continental.

[Anonymous No.18018730]

well that's what did happen, because the socialists never predicted that they could make progress with union action and voting, which worked. And then peoples quality of life did actually improve.

Early industrial era to the 1930's was genuinely shit and the amount of soul crushingly exploitative jobs were huge. Not so much from the 50's onward and less so every year since.

I still don't like liberalism, capitalism or neo-liberalism, but you just look stupid if you try and claim they haven't raised the quality of life of your average person immensley.

[Anonymous No.18018760]

>>18017835
Well Marx took a lot of the liberal equilibrium crap a little to seriously iniatly thinking imperialism would bring every nation to the same state. If you just mean protectionism capitalists/workers won't put up with the costs after they become to intense.

[Anonymous No.18018774]

>>18018045
Not him, but the problem is that when given the chance the managerial class will side with the owner-class so they can maintain what little power and status they have in capitalist hierarchy, failing to realize that they are perpetuating that same hierarchy by doing so. It is the same in left-totalitarian societies too, the managerial class sucking up to the politburo to keep their comfortable position slightly above the proles.

[Anonymous No.18018805]

>>18018045
It isn't about managerial, there is no managerial class. Either you are a business owner or employee. (Or in a cooperative or something but shh).

The dichotomy is between those who own the business and those who sell their labor for a wage. At the end of the day you are still an employee.

Not some arbitrary one between middle and working class.

[Anonymous No.18018816]

>>18018730
>because the socialists never predicted that they could make progress with union action and voting, which worked
Are you implying reformists didn't exist in Marx times? Marxist theory addresses reformist policy-making and is usually absolutely right about what it leads society into, which is worker complacency and the eventual return of oppressive practices. As long as the profit-motive drives the modes of production, the working class will always get shafted in some way or another.

>but you just look stupid if you try and claim they haven't raised the quality of life of your average person immensely.
Who are "they"? Capitalism is actively, continuously fighting against every single advance in worker's rights ever made. Life got better DESPITE capitalists, through organized labor opposition, not because of them.

[Anonymous No.18018829]

>>18017835
>rather than get a comfy job from the local capitalist
No such thing the 19th century existed for a worker class person. That's why he wrote the fucking book in the first place.

[Anonymous No.18019020]

>>18018045
It more designates the ivory tower coastal elites who monopolize the wealth by constructing themselves as the "professional" and "expert" class that is solely entitled (because qualified) to govern society.

You are probably an ordinary guy with a family and so on. You are the elite's Outer Party, you carry out their ideological program unwittingly by reifying it and validating it. You will work hard and feel like the system works, and 1 or 2 of your kids will be happy healthy people who go to good colleges and contribute something to society as wel, but the other 2 or 3 of your kids will be worthless fuckups who you (not you personally, but the average member of your class) nevertheless get into good colleges and provide with enough polish that nobody notices they're duds. Then your dud kids' will grease the wheels for their own dud children even more, which gets easier and easier with each generation because the institutions are always lowering their standards.

Even if technocracy guaranteed qualified technocrats, taylorist "scientific management" types and Ecole Normale graduates from bygone times, it would still be dangerous because technocrat-vetted-technocrats reproduce a very specific image of humanity (manageable material to be manipulated into "efficient" conformity with administration). But we're not even living in that world, we're living in a world where the technocrats are 90% incompetent assholes who get in through nepotism.

The real cool people like you who actually want to be engineers out of passion and studied science out of a desire for knowledge etc. are incidental, the system exploits you too by holding you up to all the duds as if you're the norm. You aren't the norm. The trillions of airhead upper middle class people who run the unfathomable bureaucracy that will decide the whole future of your career by determining what institutions you attend, where you work, what grants you get, those rubber-stamping midwits are the true technocracy. Every time people like you do something decent, the system uses it as an example of why we need three more HR departments to "rationalise" your accomplishments.

[Anonymous No.18019039]

>>18017835
because he can't understand anything besides blunt materialism.
He thinks people are only their paycheck, adn completely disregads all other characteristics that make a person a person.
His ideology is retarded from the very start.

[Anonymous No.18019062]

>>18017835
>>18017876
This.
But Lenin and Gramsci realized that the workers would not be able to organize and accomplish anything by themselves. Lenin came up with the vanguard party led by a small core of highly disciplined men possessed of iron wills that would direct the masses, and Gramsci came up with the theory that explains precisely how workers can be led to adopt positions and support parties that are, from the Marxist perspective, against their objective material interests.
Marxism does not end with Marx. To understand Marxism, you must read Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Gramsci, Bettelheim, Badiou, and whatever other thinkers consider themselves Marxist that strike your fancy. Think of it as an intellectual tradition in the vein of Christianity. Just as one cannot hope to understand Christianity solely on the basis of the Bible, so can one not hope to understand Marxism solely on the basis of what Marx wrote.

[Anonymous No.18019259]

>>18017994
Good post.

[Anonymous No.18019295]

>>18017876
This is why I don't like Marx. He doesn't offer an alternative to Capitalism, but rather necessitates Capitalism reaches a certain point in its development. Economy IS bad, and Marx is certainly not the answer.

[Anonymous No.18019314]

>Why would the worker in America fight for the rights of workers in France, rather than get a comfy job from the local capitalist?
FTFY

[Anonymous No.18019321]

>>18017864
>>18017864
>Probably because you have much more in common with a random working schlub from across the world than you do with the rich guy a few blocks away
that's objectively false anyway
I have more in common with business owners in my country than with "proletarians" of Africa, the Middle East or China.
I don't share values, or religion, or costumes, or aesthetic, or any sort of cultural or spiritual connection with them.
I find myself genetically repulsed and don't even want to sexually reproduce with their woman and share blood bonds.

"Proletarians of the world unite" has been always an agenda, not a description of the nature of mankind.

[Anonymous No.18019352]

>>18017864
I don't, and neither did Marx.

[Anonymous No.18019380]

>>18019321
Funny how marxists themselves can't escape the materialist capitalist paradigm and reduce all peoples to mere economic units that add up to no more than dollars and cents.

[Anonymous No.18019401]

>>18017835
Unironically because he was a petit bourgeois who had no clue how proletariat people think, which is pretty common among communists and one of the main reasons why communism never works.

[Anonymous No.18019415]

>>18017994
It’s really interesting to me how quickly Marx’s vision of global socialist revolution fell apart. Ironically, even though Marx interpreted history materialistically and saw everything as products of their environment, Marxism itself was a product of its environment. No one really cares about socialism or communist revolution. For the most part it’s subjugated to American leftists whining on twitter. There’s no organization or alternative vision for the world among leftists, communism is just a nostalgic relic to role-play and fantasize over as the world continues to deteriorate, because that’s what communism always was to begin with.

[Anonymous No.18019446]

>>18017864
Based.
>>18017887
You are only competing because your paymaster makes you compete. There are enough resources for both of you to live comfortably if the capitalist parasite wasn't cucking your earnings to buy a third yacht.
>>18019321
Do you really though? Business owners don't view you as a human and don't give a shit about you and your values as long you slave away for them. They would never want to reproduce with you and anyone related to you either.

[Anonymous No.18019471]

>>18019446
>Business owners don't view you as a human and don't give a shit about you and your values as long you slave away for them.
Business owners have families, they send their kids to the same universities and schools that me. I have fucked their daughters and made friends with their sons, we share festivies, clubs, holidays, aesthetics, history, etc.

Not every business owner is a transnational jew that see people as cattle.

[Anonymous No.18019660]

>>18017835
Marx isnt assuming, that’s what he’s calling for.

He’s saying that workers in both France and Vietnam would benefit from working together, not that he thought they necessarily were going to.

I mean, he probably also did think the workers of the world would one day unite, but just talking about the text of the Communist Manifesto the text is “Workers of the world unite!” not “the workers of the work will unite!” It’s a directive, not a prediction.

[Anonymous No.18019884]

>>18019471
>>18019446
You're both right and both showing the weaknesses in your respective views. It's not an either/or thing. Marxists who make it a completely black and white affair just alienate people who have experiences of perfectly nice bosses, landlords, etc. The point is to critique the relations.

Of course the harshness is also warranted and the "c'mon, my boss is a nice guy!" is overly naive. In an actual crisis, most "nice bosses" would choose their own interests over the collective interest ten times out of ten. It's just that the system lets them distribute that cynicism in ways where they never have to admit this, first of all to themselves.

But you can see it easily enough. All rich people dodge taxes very cleverly. There is no civic responsibility among them. I have known many developers and they all do some shady shit fucking homeowners and renters down the line, sometimes big time. Because the system rewards it. You just find ways to do it where you never have to see your serfs or the impact you're having on them. I'm sure most slavemasters were nice to their slaves on the plantations too.

[Anonymous No.18019969]

>>18019884
>The point is to critique the relations.
I don't need a subversive ideology full of contradictions to do that.
Marxist theory get human nature wrong.
> But anon it states some usefull things!
Worthless. The best lies are the ones with some truths.
Only brainlets are marxists.
You can get everything you need from the study of evophsych, human nature and the natural order of things.

The natural state of human communities is fascistic.
Markets are zero sum darwinian games that disguise war for territory and resources.
Totalitarian neoliberal regimes force everybody to play in a game that is not necesarilly "fair" (in a evolutionar advantage sense) for everybody.
People that understand this become disenters and fight against it.

Humans are hierarchical animals, you will never escape hierarchy. The problem is not the hierarchy per-se or that you have someone who the community values more than you. The problem is that western societies were parasited by outsiders. Our current "elites" are parasitic outsiders that are festing from the population.
They should be removed and a new elite should be set in place.

Fascism and monarchy understand better human nature than communism.
Communism just sell better lies. Marxist "theory" is just the marketing manual.

[Anonymous No.18019980]

>>18019969
>Only brainlets are marxists.
>The natural state of human communities is fascistic.

Mussolini was a very well-read Marxist. So was Werner Sombart.

[Anonymous No.18020078]

>>18019471
Their daughters might use you as a human dildo and their sons might party with you, but when the kids get power in the companies, they will be happy to replace you with someone who does the same job for less and vote to cuck your rights.
>>18019969
>The problem is not the hierarchy per-se or that you have someone who the community values more than you.
Or that these hierarchies allow a tiny minority to decide how 90% of the resources are allocated based on their whims. Elites are parasitic outsiders by definition and it's obvious that a system that grants them so much power will work against the interests of everyone else. Replacing the current ones with new faces won't do shit. Power will always disconnect people from the ones who have none, hence the only chance to deal with the dilemma is a system that doesn't grant stupid amount of it to a few individuals.
>Fascism and monarchy understand better human nature than communism.
In the sense that they go for more primal desires like fear, sure. Communism is a bit like anarchism in it's naive trust that humans can be motivated to work together by cold logic and respect for each other.
>>18019884
I'm not even a Marxist, many of the Marxist observations are just obvious. The proposed solutions not so much.

[Anonymous No.18020151]

>>18020078
>Elites are parasitic outsiders by definition
No.
If you have a tribe of 200 people and one is elected chief of the tribe by divine right or whatever he is not an outsider and is not a parasyte.
Heck, even if instead of elected (through history kings as a role was a lot more community involved that posmodern authors will tell you) he carved his position through sheer force, he still have a blood and historic connection to his people. Elites of the past (at least the competent ones) CARED about the future of their people, even if not because they were moral and just, at least for ego and duty.
Alexander wanted to carve his empire and make it great, not to sell his people and exchange them for cheaper slave work.
You can say the same about tons of kings and emperors through history.
The french revolution, the freemasonic revolutions basically, created the worst of the possible worlds, because a lot of DIRTY BLOOD with not one once of noble blood in them ended up in positions of power.
You are talking your ass off using a "semetic" worldview of european nations without understanding the history of european peoples and how they worked.
That's how we ended with this shitty system.

Freemasonic degeneracy needs to be stopped.

[Anonymous No.18020217]

>>18020151
>Alexander wanted to carve his empire and make it great
Hence the lives of his soldiers who would be better off not fighting his battles were never part of the calculation. And everyone who went against his desires was considered an enemy.
>You can say the same about tons of kings and emperors through history.
And you can also see how shitty their subjects did. Even for the most benevolent examples, the result was tickle down at best, which usually only benefited the ones closest to power. Peasant #23526 didn't get shit from their emperor conquering the territory of another, but higher taxes to sponsor the war effort and having his son being forced into battle.

[Anonymous No.18020224]

>>18020217
Come to think of it, this is exactly the shit we have now. You still benefit from your rulers cucking Africans and Chinks by getting cheap iPhones and coffee.

[Anonymous No.18020234]

>>18019295
>Economy is bad
Ok wise guy, how will people acquire resources without an economy?

[Anonymous No.18021818]

>>18020224
>You still benefit from your rulers cucking Africans and Chinks by getting cheap iPhones and coffee.
Our rulers are filling our countries with trash.
They created a demographic boom in africa, while at the same time they told our people (smart healthy people) to stop having kids.
Our rulers are literally selling out to the chinks for total global domination.

Current parasitic elites had NOTHING to do with old elites.
Humans are hierarchical animals. Some people were BORN TO BE LEAD. Every gene in their body is codified to be a serf. Is in their nature. In the same way that 95% of women are genetically designed to want good dicking of high status men and be submisive to them.
We need good elites that don't abuse the plebs in the same way that you need good men that don't abuse women.
If those conditions are not men then you need war and enough killings until you can meet those conditions.
Is not easy, but is simple.

[Anonymous No.18021833]

Because Marx wasn't part of the proletariat... How could he possibly know how we think?

[Anonymous No.18022359]

>>18017835
>Why did Marx assume that proletarians of all countries would be willing to work together?
He didn't assume that. He basically wrote off the English working class as hopelessly reactionary and felt that the iron would strike in Ireland. Marx and Engels even wrote about "bourgeois proletarians" who were bought off through their loyalty to the empire -- those same proletarians wasted their lives in World War I which was something Engels saw coming up late in his life.

Lenin elaborated on these ideas. In order for capitalism to generate greater profits, banks and industrial cartels merge to produce finance capitalism which leads to the division of the world among monopolist business companies and the great powers. Business and government eventually engages in geopolitical conflict over the economic exploitation of large portions of the world and its people.

Furthermore, in the capitalist homeland, the super-profits yielded by the colonial exploitation of the world's people permits businessmen to bribe native politicians, labor leaders and the "labor aristocracy" (upper stratum of the working class) to politically thwart worker revolts.

Where do most proletarians in the world live today?

https://youtu.be/XDaQ8C6bkCw?t=34

[Anonymous No.18022373]

>>18019415
>For the most part it’s subjugated to American leftists whining on twitter.
Most Marxists, communists, etc. in the world are not American or even western at all. Mostly Indian and Chinese today.

[Anonymous No.18022410]

>>18019471
From David Graeber's book "Debt: The First 5,000 Years."

[Anonymous No.18022431]

>>18021818
>Humans are hierarchical animals. Some people were BORN TO BE LEAD.
Like the Confucians of the past believed, those who are to "be" led will be soldiers... and businessmen. If you want to be in business, you should serve the people. If you don't, you don't get to do business.

https://youtu.be/V9-D8h4iDaI?t=57

[Anonymous No.18022453]

>>18017994
Interesting, thanks for this anon

[Anonymous No.18022836]

>>18017835
he didn't
they didn't even work together they just wanted to take things from others

[Anonymous No.18023248]

>>18022359
>He basically wrote off the English working class as hopelessly reactionary
And they keep proving him right still. What the fuck is wrong with Bongland?

[Anonymous No.18023306]

>>18017864
this makes the jew seethe

[Anonymous No.18023458]

>>18017864
I probably dont have much in common with either... why the dichotomy?

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18023481]

>>18017835
>a comfy job from the local capitalist?

[Anonymous No.18023507]

>>18017864
marx is riddled with this kind of muddled counter logical thinking. you cant even exchange thoughts with them for want of common language but setting that aside (depending on 'across the world') anyone who has been 'across the world' will tell you culture difference doesnt allow for this at all

[Anonymous No.18023530]

>>18023507
What sort of cultural difference is supposed to be the big obstacle? The only issue is people across the world worshipping their masters anyway.

[Anonymous No.18023573]

>>18019062
>To understand Marxism, you must read Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Gramsci, Bettelheim, Badiou, (ad infinitum)
you forgot luxembourg comrade.
>Just as one cannot hope to understand Christianity solely on the basis of the Bible
yes you easily can. you should read the new testament and abandon communism. its an evil ideology.

[Anonymous No.18023622]

>>18022410
>for five thousand uninterrupted years china maintained a standard of living which was 'the highest in the world', roughly equivalent to pre-industrial england
the most damning possible indictment of that set of ideas if true. thanks anon

[Anonymous No.18023643]

>>18023530
>What sort of cultural difference is supposed to be the big obstacle
you have never travelled outside your own world to a poor country. you should. the working class in the third world is not what you think it is. that question doesnt even deserve an answer.

[Anonymous No.18023668]

>>18023643
>n-no, you didn't travel if you don't share my idea that I'm not even going to elaborate
Good lord.

[Anonymous No.18023690]

>>18023507
pretty sure all 18-25 year old virgin neets like us grew up watching the same capshit and playing the same vidya. i have a vietnamese bro who has mcdondalds and walmart in his area too. what cultural differences do we have?

[Anonymous No.18023758]

>>18023690
>what cultural differences do we have?
presumably american. are you really asking me what kind of cultural differences exist between the united states and vietnam? do you really not understand how ridiculously broad that is? they are on the other sides of the world to each other, they have different dominant religions and political systems of thought, wildly different GDP's and different average ages and rates of drug use and crime rates i could go on and on and on they are vastly culturally different at virtually every level due to their respective histories and where they are located on the globe. instead of wanting me to answer something like that why dont you just consider it yourself for five minutes?

[Anonymous No.18023798]

>>18023758
>stop talking to your Vietnamese bro because you have like different GDPs, older average population and the cucks in your country worship a Jewish carpenter instead of some fat Indian

[Anonymous No.18023829]

>cant even order a pizza
>writes off white trash in most cases
>w-www workers of the world unite!

[Anonymous No.18023999]

>>18023798
thats the opposite of what im saying, im saying learn more about vietnam. if you think 'well they must be the same they have avengers and mcdonalds' then you obviously should start trying to learn something, anything about vietnams history or culture or they will just be insulted

[Anonymous No.18024081]

>>18023999
incidentally i think murder rate in nam is like 1/5 of the usa.

[Anonymous No.18024156]

>>18023999
Nobody is saying Vietnam is the same but its history and culture has only so much effect on its people. A random Burger probably knows as little about Burger history as a random Vietnamese about theirs. Them celebrating some random shit at a different date doesn't do much when it comes of who the people are.
>>18024081
They probably have health care and maternal leave too.

[Anonymous No.18024177]

>>18023573
I abandoned Communism a long time ago, but I do not think that I can understand Christianity solely based on the Bible. I would have to read the work of the Church Fathers, regardless of which form of Christianity I chose to adopt.

[Anonymous No.18024290]

>>18024177
checked and respectfully disagreed you only need the story of jesus imo but theres lots of good optional extras.
>>18024156
>A random Burger probably knows as little about Burger history as a random Vietnamese about theirs.
i concede, you are probably right but you dont need to know these things in detail to be affected by them nontheless.
>history and culture has only so much effect on its people
yes, it only has a huge effect that easily exceeds even socio economic class
>...celebrating some random shit at a different date...
absurd oversimplification
>They probably have health care and maternal leave too.
presumably true but americans are immensely richer. the bottom 20% of american families spend more money per year than the average swedish family.

[Anonymous No.18024292]

>>18023829
White trash in Burgerstan is something special though. They are a lot like religious extremists in backwards shitholes but do they really have the indoctrination excuse when they live in a relatively free country?

[Anonymous No.18024368]

>>18024290
>you dont need to know these things in detail to be affected by them nontheless
The effect tends to be more on national level and obviously the socio economics the history left behind. And the former has a "ghostly" sort of presence that doesn't have much of an individual impact. The latter is very much linked to class. Some richfag in Vietnam is going to have a harder time to understand the poorfags in Vietnam compared to richfags in US of A.
>absurd oversimplification
Come the fuck on, how many people actually give a flying fuck about national holidays beyond an excuse to celebrate something and in case of countries where nationalism is a big thing, to wave the flag for a bit?
>the bottom 20% of american families spend more money per year than the average swedish family
Since some of the things that are basically free in Sweden cost money there. Someone making 100k in San Diego can barely afford the nearby rents while someone in Sweden making half as much could be living comfortably. Hell, stuff like having to save up for college makes the American experience much closer to third worlders. As is the chance to get shoot or dealing with corrupt or incompetent cops.

[Anonymous No.18024444]

>>18024368
>Some richfag in Vietnam is going to have a harder time to understand the poorfags in Vietnam compared to richfags in US of A.
well as i said they dont even share language which is fundamental to cultural identity, so they are actually aliens to each other form the outset besides everything else.
>"ghostly" sort of presence
its the main determining factor of all the differences i list here
>>18023758
but whatever you say dude.
>absurd oversimplification
go to vietnam, tell them tet holiday is virtually the same as independence day and also a triviality. please go do that, let me know how it goes
>americans are immensely richer
average monthly wage in us is at least, at least, 200x that of vietnam. if you are a commie than economics and quality of life will never be your strong ground to fight over. stick to toxic identity politics for easier victories.

[Anonymous No.18024477]

>>18024368
you ahve stuck to your guns and i respect that and i know at least some commies are trying to make a utopia etc and arent intrinsically bad. this is my advice: abandon communism, forget everything you ever learned about it, replace the knowledge with something more wholesome. communism is a genocidal ideology almost indivisible from nazism. ten years ago i was a commie, i dont hold it against you

[Anonymous No.18024688]

>>18024444
>i said they dont even share language
Almost anyone somewhat educated speaks Engrish either way.
>its the main determining factor of all the differences i list here
Then it'd be of use to go more in detail and explain why you think it makes such a huge difference. It's actually an interesting topic and I'm genuinely curious whether I have some blind spots despite muh traveling.

Like, I could see how it matters for old fucks but young people, specially someone educated ones tend to be pretty divorced from the shit, aside of subtler elements.
>>18024477
Err, I'm not a commie. Never was one either, although I obviously sympathize with some of the ideas. I don't think any old ideology is of any use for modern times, and then there are the overly dogmatic supporters and purist that seem hostile to views outside of the gospel. It's no surprise leftists are the best at killing leftists.

[Anonymous No.18024930]

>>18024688
>Almost anyone somewhat educated speaks Engrish either way.
very loose interpretation, imo, of what being educated means but theres at least some truth to that i guess. im sure you would agree its far from a prerequisite and divorced from what i meant anyway
>Then it'd be of use to go more in detail
explain why a nations history is the principle determinant of almost every quality of life metric in that country today? why bother, do you seriously disagree with that concept?
>Err, I'm not a commie.
glad to hear it but there are more lurking in the thread.
>I don't think any old ideology is of any use for modern times
an interesting idea but its hard to imagine a world in which humans can function without ideologies to provide meaning and cohesion so in the meantime you must discriminate between benign and harmful ideologies in the first instance

[Anonymous No.18024971]

>>18017835
>Why did Marx assume that proletarians of all countries would be willing to work together?
Because they share material interests.

[Anonymous No.18025271]

>>18024930
>im sure you would agree its far from a prerequisite and divorced from what i meant anyway
Well, being able to speak the same language is a huge advantage to deal with the rest. And seeing how most countries are flooded with Burger entertainment and even food, the cultures get closer and closer, specially for younger people.
>determinant of almost every quality of life metric in that country today
It be simpler if you could specify what exactly you mean. The numbers from a distant perspective don't tell us much, at best hint the ease of access to opportunities. Can be super crucial if we talk about Norway vs some sub saharan country that struggles with access to water; but if we talk about somewhat developed countries? Whether Burgerland or Vietnam, the working class in both is stuck doing shitty jobs for long hours with some chance to make enough money to afford education to their kids, who then can hopefully move up in class a bit. In both cases they can afford the necessary transportation, a roof above their heads and some basic shit like fridges and phones. Obviously Burgers can afford to buy more useless shit and go with iPhones instead of chink shit and pay to stream media instead of pirating it but in the end both are pretty much cucked when most of their lives are about serving the capital with some bread and circus on the side. It's even reflected in the similar life expectancy. And unlike US of A, at least poorfags in Vietnam don't have to worry about health care.

Shit, from yuro perspective they both seem closer than France and Spain. Hell, there are even more English speakers in Vietnam.
> its hard to imagine a world in which humans can function without ideologies to provide meaning and cohesion
Yeah, I don't see it either anytime soon. Besides, practically there is no choice between communism, nazism, and whatever else but flavors of neoliberalism either way. There is no point to take any ideology of a tiny minority too seriously.

[Anonymous No.18025296]

>>18024930
>but its hard to imagine a world in which humans can function without ideologies to provide meaning and cohesion

Mortality is what overwhelmingly drives humans to find or create meaning. So, you'd have to either end death -- which doesn't necessarily promise the end of search for meaning -- or reduce human consciousness to maybe a zombie-like state so they don't have death realizations.

[Anonymous No.18025313]

>>18017835
>get a comfy job from the local capitalist?
why not just own what the capitalist owns instead?

[Anonymous No.18025459]

>>18023758
>they are on the other sides of the world to each other, they have different dominant religions and political systems of thought, wildly different GDP's and different average ages and rates of drug use and crime rates
none of that is cultural tho? if our hobbies are roughly the same and we have the same work norms of 9-5 mon-fri,, what's the significant difference between an american and vietnamese consumer?

[Anonymous No.18026320]

>>18017864
but the same could be said for every class...

[Anonymous No.18026494]

>>18018730
>they haven't raised the quality of life of your average person immensley.
That's the bare minimum provided to make said workers complacent through market mechanisms. The truth is what's left of labor unions has been completely compromised by all encompassing corporatism and workers are threatened punitively by technocratic corporations like Amazon et al against unionization to begin with.
Just because you see the happy warehouse worker on their frontpage or the ecstatic bean farmer on Starbucks doesn't mean it's true, quite the opposite actually. Boom-bust is a farce and that's a simple apolitical fact.

[Anonymous No.18027207]

>>18022410
>>18022431
I'm the anon you are quoting
interesting
will read

> Like the Confucians of the past believed, those who are to "be" led will be soldiers... and businessmen. If you want to be in business, you should serve the people. If you don't, you don't get to do business.
I'm not against this, but I can't and I will NEVER respect marxismo, communism or bolshevism.
I see them as a weapon of the same parasytes that enslaved us.
Only monarchy, fascism, national socialism or something new inherenting from those doctrines will bring us justice.

[Anonymous No.18027220]

Because he was an autistic retard who didn’t understand human nature
/thread

[Anonymous No.18027570]

>>18017864
WWII proved that people are more divided by nationality than by class.

[Anonymous No.18027865]

>>18027570
WWII is another example of the ruling class dividing the proles to die for their shit.

[Jesus No.18028543]

>>18017835
workers compete with other workers for a job, workers hate each other, especially workers of different race, or competing state. faggots

[Jesus No.18028557]

>>18027865
yep, industrial revolution made millions of people redundant useless eaters who hated each other. elites only directed the hate. marx had 7 children. think before you coom in vagina, faggots. good neet dead neet.