Post-Berlin Wall thoughts...

[Anonymous No.18048048]

What will it take for Marxism and Communism to gain cache value in the United States and further internationally? What will it take for class consciousness to replace race consciousness?

Since 1989, the narrative has been that capitalism was the end goal of humanity and that we have essentially found the perfect, self-perpetuating system. Because of this and people being raised in capitalism with no oppositon, it has been ingrained as natural and simply "how life is" versus just being a socioeconomic system and stage on the development of humanity. What will it take for people to remove their ideological blinders and see that socioeconomic development project is not through and that change is possible? Revolution is possible.

[Anonymous No.18048074]

>What will it take for people to remove their ideological blinders and see that socioeconomic development project is not through and that change is possible?
Complete and total collapse.

[Anonymous No.18048081]

>>18048048
We first need new theory. The fact that people are still clinging onto Leninist style “seize the means of production and state power” is terrible since it’s so outdated.
I keep shilling this in Marx threads but read Hinterlands by Phil A Neel. He provides excellent ground we need to develop further on.

[Anonymous No.18048082]

Nothing because neither will take hold in the US.

If you want to get people to address "class consciousness", try and call out importing of labor by companies and the continued excuse for lax borders without being called a racist. You'll see it cannot be done, despite such things being invariably detrimental to the labor force, i.e. ballooning the labor pool in the name of GDP.

Sorry, it can't be done. The racial divide is too ingrained and disrupting that system is too much for many -- namely the politicians and corporations that are hand-in-hand.

[Anonymous No.18048085]

>>18048081
Also read Negri if you haven’t already although he’s much more popular, or at least was in the 2000s-2010s.

[Anonymous No.18048092]

We'll probably have to wait until it is clear that the current system is incapable of solving it's problems. Given how shittily america responded to covid and the general economic instability, it is hard to imagine america makes it through the climate crisis in one piece. Civil unrest is already high, a few more covid level shocks and I think the ruling ideology will lose whatever legitimacy it has left

[Anonymous No.18048096]

The powers that be will plunge the world into apocalypse before true, widespread class consciouness spread.

[Anonymous No.18048160]

Serious question, I'm all for class consciousness as opposed to the current Lefts obsession with race. But don't you think the differences between classes are as muddled as ever? The working class has never had it so good in history and the difference between middle/upper and so on is hard to define.

[Anonymous No.18048179]

>>18048160
>The working class has never had it so good in history
Wages have stagnated since the 70s as far as I know, meanwhile inflation has decreased labor value

[Anonymous No.18048205]

>>18048160
>The working class has never had it so good in history

[Anonymous No.18048217]

>>18048048
can you guys please read the real "posthistorical last man" book instead of this retard plagiarist

[Anonymous No.18048235]

>>18048205
Millennials are a generation not a class.

[Anonymous No.18048252]

>>18048235
The majority are working class

[Anonymous No.18048277]

>>18048048
>What will it take for Marxism and Communism to gain cache value in the United States and further internationally? What will it take for class consciousness to replace race consciousness?
The dissolution of the state. Despite all the US state’s supposed weakness and disorganization, the deep state (DoD, CIA, FBI, NSA, etc.) are extremely strong, well funded, well coordinated, and responsive. There can be no strong left movement while the state is still so powerful, it will crush them all. It’s why neoliberalism and idpol were birthed at the same time, it’s why after occupy and after Bernie idpol causes suddenly took over every major corporation and news outlet. The American Deep State mastered their craft in the 60s and 70s and now destroying the left is just child’s play, it’s nothing to them. There is no hope other than the dissolution of the United States or its relegation to a weak world power like Russia.

[Anonymous No.18048310]

>>18048160
>The working class has never had it so good in history
Completely untrue. The 50s to the 80s were the peak of working class standard of living in the West and indeed in many other places around the world. The collapse of socialism in the East and the rise of neoliberalism in the West ended that golden age though.

[Anonymous No.18048359]

>The third feature of production is that the rise of new productive forces and of the relations of production corresponding to them does not take place separately from the old system, after the disappearance of the old system, but within the old system; it takes place not as a result of the deliberate and conscious activity of man, but spontaneously, unconsciously, independently of the will of man It takes place spontaneously and independently of the will of man for two reasons.

>Firstly, because men are not free to choose one mode of production or another, because as every new generation enters life it finds productive forces and relations of production already existing as the result of the work of former generations, owing to which it is obliged at first to accept and adapt itself to everything it finds ready-made in the sphere of production in order to be able to produce material values.

>Secondly, because, when improving one instrument of production or another, one clement of the productive forces or another, men do not realize, do not understand or stop to reflect what social results these improvements will lead to, but only think of their everyday interests, of lightening their labor and of securing some direct and tangible advantage for themselves.

[...]

>When the Russian capitalists, in conjunction with foreign capitalists, energetically implanted modern large-scale machine industry in Russia, while leaving tsardom intact and turning the peasants over to the tender mercies of the landlords, they, of course, did not know and did not stop to reflect what social consequences this extensive growth of productive forces would lead to; they did not realize or understand that this big leap in the realm of the productive forces of society would lead to a regrouping of social forces that would enable the proletariat to effect a union with the peasantry and to bring about a victorious socialist revolution. They simply wanted to expand industrial production to the limit, to gain control of the huge home market, to become monopolists, and to squeeze as much profit as possible out of the national economy.

>Their conscious activity did not extend beyond their commonplace, strictly practical interests. [...] This, however, does not mean that changes in the relations of production, and the transition from old relations of production to new relations of production proceed smoothly, without conflicts, without upheavals. On the contrary such a transition usually takes place by means of the revolutionary overthrow of the old relations of production and the establishment of new relations of production.

-- Stalin

https://youtu.be/RjNcLhaAxQQ?t=148

[Anonymous No.18048373]

>>18048359
Stalin is an excellent writer

[Anonymous No.18048526]

I think people have images of "storming the Winter Palace" from historic revolutions like in Russia and that's "how it's supposed to be." But there was a tortuous process that led up to that, and it caught everyone by surprise. Russia was considered one of the most conservative, hidebound countries in the world, but it was like the "weak link" in a whole interlocked, international system and the repercussions of that revolution was like a blaze that suddenly ignited. It was completely shocking.

I wouldn't be Nostradamus about this. But I would think "what's the weak link in the world?" It might not even be a western country. But I can't predict the future.

https://youtu.be/zM3FVw3NTJA

[Anonymous No.18048551]

>>18048048
You're starting by thinking Marxist theory of class consciousness is right which is questionable.

>>18048160
Marx thought society would collapse into two diametrically opposed classes, a big one totally dependent upon waged labour as opposed to a smaller one living off other forms of income. That kind of did and didn't happen. The "peasantry" has been basically wiped out and historically there existed a much bigger class of individuals who could safely survive without working by living off dividends/interest and even employ servants. More people than ever have to find work for someone else to survive but there's no more "class consciousness" like Marx thought should be the case. Most Americans still see themselves as "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" and most people think they can become wealthy given a chance... either by buying lotto tickets or finding one weird trick to game the system.
The thing is Marx was very "supply side" and didn't live to see modern consumerism or the more advanced forms of hucksterism that were only beginning to develop in America (Marx and Engles planned on moving to California in the 1850s at one point but decided not to because they wanted to stay close to the London public library). Thorstein Veblen was more "demand side" and saw how corporate capitalism would develop much better since he lived at the more crucial phase of the emergence of the corporate form of enterprise in America.

[Anonymous No.18048569]

>>18048551
>That kind of did and didn't happen
That absolutely did happen, it’s just that capitalism, as Marx knew, is an international system. There are billions of oppressed and exploited proletarians in the global south and only thousands of ultracapitalists in the global north. The conditions Marx imagined are here and he was right.

[Anonymous No.18048621]

>>18048569
The petty-bourgeoisie didn't disappear like Marx thought. It's true you won't find many "peasants" in America but you'll find a lot of rubes with a little capital thinking they're going to be the next Jeff Bezos.

>only thousands of ultracapitalists in the global north
I think there's more billionaires in China than Europe (and almost as many as in America).

[Anonymous No.18048644]

>>18048621
>The petty-bourgeoisie didn't disappear like Marx thought
They’re well on the way to disappearing though. From the death of main streets, to the death of malls, monopolization is finalizing. There is nothing you can say Marx predicted about this world that isn’t right this very second coming true. Covid especially exacerbated this process with large portions of the global petit-bourgeois shutting down and losing their capital entirely.

Also the existence of poor people who arent class conscious does nothing to disprove Marx

[Anonymous No.18048656]

>>18048092
America had ultimately responded very well to COVID. The initial response was a disaster but the vaccine drive has been top class.

[Anonymous No.18048677]

>>18048621
So where are the peasants? I think if you were a communist (say, even if you're not, put yourself in the shoes of one), you should try to have an international perspective.

https://youtu.be/kYR2TPFxrJE

[Anonymous No.18048691]

>>18048160
Anyone who lives primarily by earning a wage is a worker.

[Anonymous No.18048739]

>>18048644
Whatever you want to believe... minor grifting opportunities are bigger than ever and globalized, some scammer in India can trick some boomer in America to pay them years worth of wages in google play store gift cards they can swap for crypto to finance god knows what today. There's many ways poor people can get their hands on some wealth still

>>18048677
>So where are the peasants
Third world countries but not for long. Modern agribusiness (something Stalin wanted) makes them unnecessary.

[Anonymous No.18048890]

>>18048048
we're already on the verge of it. neoliberal capitalism has lost both its economic and moral justifications and that shock has resonated deeply throughout society. i'd say that trump was our gracchi but we still need to fight the servile war

[Anonymous No.18048900]

>>18048081
>lol don't do the one thing you need to do to sieze power
>just be yourself bro

[Anonymous No.18048908]

>>18048235
millenials are middle aged and they're still earning entry-level wages

[Anonymous No.18048910]

>>18048739
>Third world countries but not for long. Modern agribusiness (something Stalin wanted) makes them unnecessary.
Liberalizing agriculture is what Modi is trying to do, but the problem is once you displace the farm labor, where do they go? You're producing more with less, so how do you absorb this surplus population that is being displaced? Are they all going to become call center employees? I don't think so, not on that scale. So they feel like their backs are up against the wall. And the West has lost its appetite for outsourcing, and the economy there has collapsed in their worst recession since the 1950s.

Marxism is the science of revolution and I've made you a Marxist now as a thought experiment, so your job is to look for the weak link in the international chain of value production being stressed by objective, material, historical forces. You're a strategist. Where do you strike? That's where I would look. It's irrational and sounds cheesy but I would also listen to that song, that's the spirit of people who could carry out a revolution, it stirs the soul. It's their own soul and language but it's the same heroic spirit of revolutionaries of other places, times, ages. It makes me think of this sentence from the Eighteenth Brumaire:

>In like manner, the beginner who has learned a new language always translates it back into his mother tongue, but he assimilates the spirit of the new language and expresses himself freely in it only when he moves in it without recalling the old and when he forgets his native tongue.

Like I said, I'm not Nostradamus, could be wrong, but if lightning strikes, remember this. Lenin:

>To the Marxist it is indisputable that a revolution is impossible without a revolutionary situation; furthermore, it is not every revolutionary situation that leads to revolution. What, generally speaking, are the symptoms of a revolutionary situation? We shall certainly not be mistaken if we indicate the following three major symptoms:

>(1) when it is impossible for the ruling classes to maintain their rule without any change; when there is a crisis, in one form or another, among the “upper classes”, a crisis in the policy of the ruling class, leading to a fissure through which the discontent and indignation of the oppressed classes burst forth. For a revolution to take place, it is usually insufficient for “the lower classes not to want” to live in the old way; it is also necessary that “the upper classes should be unable” to rule in the old way;

>(2) when the suffering and want of the oppressed classes have grown more acute than usual;

>(3) when, as a consequence of the above causes, there is a considerable increase in the activity of the masses, who uncomplainingly allow themselves to be robbed in “peace time”, but, in turbulent times, are drawn both by all the circumstances of the crisis and by the “upper classes” themselves into independent historical action.

[Anonymous No.18048932]

>>18048908
That image is from 7 years ago

[Anonymous No.18048948]

>>18048526
you have an excellent point here, as a firm believer in the energy absorbtion-radiation analogy for societies (a given substance will radiate energy at the same rate at which it absorbs it, e.g iron heats quickly and cools quickly) both india and china are ticking time bombs. if you mark the start of contemporary china with deng, it would only take three decades to undo absolutely everything through pure decay. who do you see vanishing quicker, the nation that's already weathered a civil war and whose citizens all agree on the constitution despite their vitriolic opposition to each other, or the nation that managed to just barely hold itself together during the cultural revolution (really a medium-temperature civil war)

[Anonymous No.18048960]

>>18048932
median wage for millenials was $50k in 2020

[Anonymous No.18048988]

>>18048910
>but the problem is once you displace the farm labor, where do they go
Wow you just discovered the problem every third world country ever has to deal with. Pretty much every other country in Asia had to deal with this problem. The big claim 50 years ago on the left was the claim it was impossible to develop through foreign investment but then South Korea took off and China allowed foreign investment and they did to. I think the Modi government is incompetent but it's not an impossible problem that can't be overcome.

[Anonymous No.18049003]

is the rate of profit beginning to decline?

[Anonymous No.18049014]

The working class aren't completely uninformed like we used to be. You would have to remove the internet and cause most of us to lose our jobs before we would ever fight for communism. I'm pretty happy where I am and so is everyone around me, we resent people who do not work like us, people who were born into money, people who think they're better than us because they do not work with their hands and etc etc. I'm just a humble beekeeper but the people I work with and around which include many land owners would never stage a revolution which would result in job or land losses and they would fight to the death for their land. My boss is a 68 year old ex geneticist and ex nurse even if my country completely collapsed she and our community would survive fine without anyones assistance because we are autonomous producers.

You people need us, we do not need you.

[Anonymous No.18049039]

Theorists after Marx realized that the "workers" aren't gonna do shit. They are profoundly conservative at heart and will never do anything that really rocks the boat. They want their homes, their families and their TV entertainment. Very few have the stomach for upending the social order.

[Anonymous No.18049182]

>>18048217
Was going to post this, Kojève is far better than Fukuyama

[Anonymous No.18049362]

>>18048739
>Whatever you want to believe... minor grifting opportunities are bigger than ever and globalized, some scammer in India can trick some boomer in America to pay them years worth of wages in google play store gift cards they can swap for crypto to finance god knows what today. There's many ways poor people can get their hands on some wealth still
A scammer or grifter is quite a lot closer to a lumpenproletarian then they are to being petit-bourgeois. The scammer/grifter owns no capital, they only take advantage of other people in often illegal ways, this is the essence of being lumpenproletariat.

[Anonymous No.18049372]

>>18048205
>2014 data
>millennials are in their twenties.
>20k is average salary for someone who just got their first real job.

It’s normal. Kill yourself.

[Anonymous No.18049373]

>>18048739
>Modern agribusiness (something Stalin wanted)
This is a bit of a false statement. The socialists want the centralization, collectivization, and thus working-class monopolization of agriculture (and all other sectors of the economy), true, but that is not the same as modern agribusiness. They are, however, intimately related, as the tendency for capital to monopolize and centralize creates the conditions for socialism and the proletarian takeover of the state/means of production.

[Anonymous No.18049399]

>>18048081
Hinterlands is good, and if you’re the anon who recommended it to me a week or two ago, thank you. But the lesson to be learned from all the “new strategy” bullshit that has been happening since the 60s is not to double down on it. The new left of the 60s, the anti-globalization insurrectionism and autonomism from the 90s, the leaderless and fluid movements of Occupy the Arab Spring and BLM, all failed. Every single one of these new strategies failed. Meanwhile the old Leninist strategies are resurging in popularity around the world. Marxists should not happen the tried and most successful path (leninism), but refine and adopt it to our modern conditions. This is the correct way forward.

[Anonymous No.18049423]

well actually laying out a viable way for communism to actually achieve its end goals might be a good place to start. as it stands the only people who fall for communism are those who are literally too stupid to understand why no revolution actually ends with workers in control of the means of production

secondly you will have to find a way to separate it from progressive "inter sectional" subversion that exists solely to alienate working class populations

[Anonymous No.18049426]

>>18049003
Has been since the 70s. That’s why neoliberal economics took over. But there’s only so much austerity that can be pushed until there’s no social services left to privatize to increase profits. Eventually the system will slow and collapse in on itself, we all just have to hope it’s before climate changes kills half the global population.

[Anonymous No.18049440]

>What will it take for class consciousness to replace race consciousness?
This is a very interesting concept. The American race consciousness model is currently being exprorted to many other countries and subtituting class consciousness in political discourse. This a pretty unstopable process at the moment I believe simply because racialism is exponentially more profitable and fits incredibly well into neoliberal discourse. I personally dont see an end to this. Seems like the markets really do dictate what political ideology will be the most dominant and there's not much we can do about it. Race politics is having a profoundly depoliticizing effect on the international left currently.

[Anonymous No.18049443]

>>18049039
Most marxists recognize this, that people simply want dignity, stability, and community and will not lay down their life until it is their last option. That’s why revolution is not possible in the first world and in ‘peacetime’ conditions, it is only possible in specific unique moments of history which as capitalism accelerates and matures will only become more frequent.

[Anonymous No.18049461]

>>18048048
Race consciousness is all there will be this century

[Anonymous No.18049476]

>>18048277
This dissolution could only come from a meteor or the alien invasion I believe, since revolution is only possible where there is already class consciousness. The ideology and the State feed off of each other, and with the increasingly sofisticated ideology machines I don't think a natural uprising is likely

[Anonymous No.18049516]

>>18049461
racial consciousness is better anyway, well I should say having both in mind is better. what is hard leftist class consciousness going to achieve? even in the absolute best case scenario where it magically achieves its goals it will be little more than some sort of mass societal ouroboros as a society continually eats itself alive in order to preserve its egalitarianism. in a race-class conscious movement like national socialism at least you have a heavy focus on unifying and propping up the working class in a way that is actually productive

[Anonymous No.18049532]

>>18049476
Maybe. Climate Change could also very possibly be the catalyst that forces the death of capitalism and the birth of something new. But you have to stop thinking about things so linearly, of course revolution in the first world can’t happen now, but history does not always follow the same pace, there are months like decades and decades like months. In the event of a systemic breakdown, which becomes more likely every year, class conscious can proliferate and lead to a revolutionary situation very quickly. Remember, Lenin went from not believing he would see a socialist revolution in his lifetime to leading one in the span of a couple tumultuous years.

[Anonymous No.18049563]

>>18049532
lel im sorry but there isn't going to be any feel good leftist/liberal solution to climate change and environmental catastrophe, the only thing that can even hope to address these issues is authoritarianism that enforces environmentalism with naked force, there is no asking billions of people politely to completely upend their lifestyles which they have come completely dependent on

[Anonymous No.18049605]

>>18049563
>feel good leftist/liberal solution to climate change
Leftist and liberal are not the same thing American.
> the only thing that can even hope to address these issues is authoritarianism that enforces environmentalism with naked force
Can you find somewhere an excerpt of Marx, Engels, or Lenin where they argue against authoritarianism? A revolution is the most authoritarian act there is. An eco-socialist revolution would be no different, nor do marxists pretend it would be some feel-good utopia. There will have to be serious sacrifices for many people, particularly in the first world, but a rational economy planned by a Dictatorship of the Proletariat is the only system capable of preventing extreme death, ecocide, and genocide while also maintaining basic human dignity, employment, healthcare, education, community etc. for all people. Don’t talk about marxism or enter marxist threads without even a cursory understanding of Marxism you retarded American

[Anonymous No.18049661]

>>18048900
Lol if you think that’s what I’m saying. I’m saying the state is becoming increasingly irrelevant so we need to come up with new theory adapting to this and not be left irrelevant like the Blanquists were, when politics in their era shifted to mass politics.

[Anonymous No.18049666]

>>18049605
>Leftist and liberal are not the same thing American.
yes that would be why i separated them
>a rational economy planned by a Dictatorship of the Proletariat is the only system capable of preventing extreme death, ecocide, and genocide while also maintaining basic human dignity
by all means i would absolutely fucking adore hearing your explanation about how your dictatorship of the proletariat will even enter reality and maintain a function large scale community let alone achieve all these grandoise goals. what you seem to be too stupid to comprehend is that this entire premise is utopian idiocy

[Anonymous No.18049705]

>>18049666
>by all means i would absolutely fucking adore hearing your explanation about how your dictatorship of the proletariat will even enter reality
This entire thread has been about that and the very real possibility that it is impossible at this current time. Besides, Marxists don’t speculate baselessly about future what-ifs, we organize in the real world in preparation for real world systemic shocks that create the possibility for change. If you even bothered to read half this thread you wouldn’t be so retarded.
> maintain a function large scale community let alone achieve all these grandoise goals
Dictatorships of the Proletariat have already existed in massively large nations, and do currently exist. The goal is not grandiose at all, it is based in the real world on real world examples. Sub freezing IQ

[Anonymous No.18049746]

>>18049705
>Marxists don’t speculate baselessly about future what-ifs
the entire foundation of virtually all marxist movements is marx's speculation that capitalism would give way to communist modes of production as a logical next step in societal evolution
>Dictatorships of the Proletariat have already existed in massively large nations, and do currently exist
HAHAHAHAH lol you are so fucking delusional holy shit, I was going to say this is a bold faced lie but i bet you probably actually believe it literally "Xi will turn over the means of production any day now" tier

[Anonymous No.18049750]

>>18048048
>What will it take for Marxism and Communism to gain cache value in the United States and further internationally?

Never going to happen, most of the world has been effectively liberalized, your only chance is supporting China. As for the changes society is going through you’re stuck with liberal progressivism dominating the globe. Liberalism is being expanded and refined, not replaced. You’ll live and die in the same system, but with more black transgenders running around and maybe better welfare policies to barely keep your sanity. That’s your future, not communism, lol

[Anonymous No.18049754]

>>18048960
Exactly

[Anonymous No.18049759]

>>18049516
Nazbol gang rise up

[Anonymous No.18049795]

>>18049746
>marx's speculation that capitalism would give way to communist modes of production as a logical next step in societal evolution
This is based on the analysis of real world class dynamics. It is not speculation to notice the diametrically opposed interests of two classes and extrapolate the conflict that must be resolved.
> HAHAHAHAH lol you are so fucking delusional holy shit
Seethe and Dilate. The Chinese state has total control of all major industry and economic functions in their nation. Socialism does not exist in some utopian world where people magically get means of production and live happy forever in pretty democracy and fun times. China is applying the logic and political-economics of Marxism-Leninism and achieving great real world success as a result. In the real world China has removed absolute poverty entirely, in the real world China has the greatest infrastructure and rail system on the planet, in the real world China has captured all of the vital industry necessary for the West to survive. I am none too fussed that they aren’t socialist by some retards approximation.

[Anonymous No.18049811]

>>18049516
me when I'm retarded:

[Anonymous No.18049827]

>>18049426
In a practical sense how will climate change kill half the world's population? Maybe sea level rise, leading to mass migration and war?

[Anonymous No.18049840]

>>18049795
just out of curiosity, what is about the chinese government that you think makes it a "dictatorship of the proletariat" and not just a dictatorship? especially considering class is very rigidly enforced by the economy in china. the average mcdonalds worker in a shithole like america has infinitely more potential to better their situation than a low class chinaman working in a sweatshop with suicide nets

[Anonymous No.18049858]

>>18049840
do they?

[Anonymous No.18049861]

>>18049827
disruptions in agriculture

[Anonymous No.18049865]

>>18049750
blackpilled

[Anonymous No.18049868]

>>18049858
yes?

[Anonymous No.18049916]

>>18049840
>what is about the chinese government that you think makes it a "dictatorship of the proletariat" and not just a dictatorship?
Xi Jinping for instance was a poor rural working class kid with a denounced father. Through his hard work he studied chemical engineering at university and worked his way up the various levels of government to being the leader of the nation. Many of the other highly influential Communist Party members who serve in the politburo and state council are similarly from working class backgrounds, Wang Yang for example. This is a characteristic of their politics, that the rulers and officials generally come from working class backgrounds, that is only ever seen in other Proletarian dictatorships like Cuba, The Soviet Union when it was around, etc.. Furthermore, the tight leash the government places on economic activities, and its lack of fear when it comes to prosecuting and seizing the property of China’s capitalists indicates that the government is above the private sector as opposed to (mature) capitalist economies where the private sector is above the government.
> the average mcdonalds worker in a shithole like america has infinitely more potential to better their situation than a low class chinaman working in a sweatshop
Explain to me then why China’s middle class is rapidly growing by orders of magnitude while the US middle class has been shrinking since the 80s? Your opinions are contrary to fact.
> suicide nets
The famous suicide nets were in taiwan actually.

[Anonymous No.18049933]

>>18049916
The suicide nets were put up by a taiwanese company in China, as well as Taiwan.

[Anonymous No.18049966]

>>18049916
>Xi Jinping for instance was a poor rural working class kid with a denounced father. Through his hard work he studied chemical engineering at university and worked his way up the various levels of government to being the leader of the nation. Many of the other highly influential Communist Party members who serve in the politburo and state council are similarly from working class backgrounds, Wang Yang for example. This is a characteristic of their politics, that the rulers and officials generally come from working class backgrounds, that is only ever seen in other Proletarian dictatorships like Cuba

Imagine actually believing this bullshit story. Every rags to riches backstory for populist leaders is manufactored by intelligence agencies. China is under the complete control of the USA managerial class, 100% westernized and built from the ground up by America as an American project

[Anonymous No.18050148]

>>18049966
This is the most pure and pathetic cope I’ve seen on this website. Total baseless nonsense

[Anonymous No.18050160]

Please, PLEASE, Marxoids I’m simply begging for you to start some shit so I can get pressed into the military and cap some of you retarded fucks (LEGALLY).

[Anonymous No.18050303]

>>18049916
Isn't Xi part of the whole "young princes" or whatever faction of kids of former commie leaders while the more populist faction are the Communist youth league people?

Anyways, why is China growing? Is it just that they are moving their masses into cities and catching up technologically? Is it because the glorious populist leaders are working for the people, and the only thing that the US needs is a good populist to finally destroy the evil Chinese and continue the 1000 year american reich?
I would rather america rule me, I'm used to it. God knows what weird honour complexes the world will have to deal with when China rules.

[Anonymous No.18050314]

>people are still talking about Marxism and class consciousness in current year
How long will it take for us to get mass eugenics so we can wipe you morons out of the bloodline forever?

[Anonymous No.18050877]

>>18050148
'American' is a euphemism

[Anonymous No.18050891]

>>18050877
Nice rare POCP (Proof of Chosen Perfidy), have one of mine

[Anonymous No.18051081]

>>18050303
>Isn't Xi part of the whole "young princes" or whatever faction of kids of former commie leaders while the more populist faction are the Communist youth league people?
And he lost everything during the Cultural Revolution.
Xi is what Trump and people like him pretend to be, a self-made man

[Anonymous No.18051143]

>>18049362
>A scammer or grifter is quite a lot closer to a lumpenproletarian then they are to being petit-bourgeois.
Not necessarily, illicit activity has always played a big role in building wealth and as a steppingstone. Someone happy just being a pimp or selling drugs for as long as they're out of prison or something is what makes a lumpenproletariat a lumpenproletariat, the point is you wash that money into something not illegal.

[Anonymous No.18051428]

>>18048048
Class consciousness is spook

[Anonymous No.18051468]

>>18049661
states aren't going anywhere bro. the only people trying to make you think that they're withering away are finance types who would prefer you not notice that they've seized the machinery for themselves

[Anonymous No.18051476]

>>18049827
the world is only two bad harvests away from famine

[Anonymous No.18051484]

>>18049372
median millenials were almost 30 in 2014

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18051582]

>>18048048
Skip Marxism (and all Marxist-Leninist forms) and fo directly to the commune. Replace the failing economy and political shitscape with a working model worth fighting for

Since 1989 DC and The rest of the powerful have been stuck in a feedback loop, operating as if we were all still in that year.

The state is still very powerful, but now is the time to reach out to as many receptive Americans as possible (Canadians, Mexicans and Caribbeans). Not just anarchists and socialist leaning progressives, some reluctant tankie cultists, but also anti-government rightwingers and “libertarians”. Psychotic cops, IDpol libs and fascists are the ones to avoid

[Anonymous No.18052006]

>>18050148
Believing the stories that global elites tell you because it makes you feel good is cope

[Anonymous No.18052013]

>>18048048
Marxism is a stupid idea and has died.

[Anonymous No.18052051]

>>18049014
>land owners would never stage a revolution
Gee what a great insight, never could have predicted that one

This is just "kulaks don't like revolution": The Post.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18052064]

>>18049014
>many mortgage owners would never stage a revolution which would result in land ownership, they would fight to the death for their mortgage payments

[Anonymous No.18052079]

>What will it take for Marxism and Communism to gain cache value in the United States...

Hold on a second. What the hell is "cache value"?

[Anonymous No.18052613]

>>18052079
Poster probably meant 'cachet' (rhymes with 'ballet', not 'bet'), as in cultural cachet, literally an old French word for a letter's seal implying authority/trust, metaphorically therefore meaning authority or prestige

[Anonymous No.18052629]

>>18048048
Why do people keep clinging to mid-19th century positivist theory so badly? What compels them to do so?

[Anonymous No.18052671]

>>18048092
There's absolutely no reason to believe that a marxist or communist society would handle covid or climate change any better.

[Anonymous No.18052740]

>>18052671
??? Regarding Covid we have actual figures and comparison cases.
>China
>Vietnam
>Kerala in India (admittedly it's gotten away from them in October, still proportionally less than half of USA figures)
>Nepal
>Cuba
Come on mate get it together

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18052744]

>>18052671
Epidemics/pandemics:
Being localized would avoid the spreading of epidemics. Being highly coordinated direct democracies would help them in times of such mishaps.
Climate change/carbon emissions:
Simply not being a capitalist world would do half the work there. Nixing a for-profit economy is mysterious to you Ferengi-like people. The economy would be more about mutual wellbeing. I’m not just typing that because it sounds nice though. We have an in-kind way to pay and exchange and we value human life more than arbitrary debt tokens. —so yeah. People would take steps to be more ecological, at worst, they’d be only locally responsible.
There’s plenty of good reason to believe anarcho-communism would be more attentive to the natural disasters

[Anonymous No.18052812]

>>18052740
China isn't marxist or communist and neither are most of the other countries on your list. The countries that dealt with covid the best are all capitalist.

>>18052744
> The economy would be more about mutual wellbeing.

You have very little evidence or reasoning to substantiate any of your points. Even if the economy was "more about mutual wellbeing", which is completely unfounded, there's absolutely no reason to believe that the outcome would be better than the current system.

[Anonymous No.18052829]

>>18048205
crazy how I'm 23 and make more than 6x that amount... I'm really beating these niggas

[Anonymous No.18052841]

>>18052812
None of the countries that dealt with covid are "capitalist" either

Source: my arse. If you can call China, Vietnam, Cuba, Nepal and Kerala non-Marxist then I can call New Zealand communists. I make the rules now sweaty :^)

[Anonymous No.18052855]

>>18052829
What’s your job

[Anonymous No.18052862]

>>18052671
They only would insofar as they're authoritarian. The key factor underpinning the success of China, Korea, Vietnam, Japan in handling COVID is definitely societal collectivism. In the cases of China and Vietnam, it is precisely authoritarian governance that is able to coordinate and enforce societal collectivism, since they're societies that are more traditionally centered around familial collectivism.

[Anonymous No.18052866]

>>18052855
I work for a major financial institution

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18052893]

>>18052812
I have a couple of books that can explain what what I’m stumbling at better.
In fact there’s every reason to believe that such an about face in what motivates everyone’s daily life, would do fucking wonders for our brains and general societal interactions.
WORTH A FUCKING SHOT

[Anonymous No.18052901]

>>18051081
What's the argument? That the Chinese have impressive leaders? That they are doing the correct thing by passively controlling the private sector?

In 50 years when surveillance will be even more crazy, maybe the west will do the same(but even more). The whole society will become one big unit. At that point no one will care to call it socialism(just like nowadays people don't really care to call China socialist, but instead they call them tyrranical).

[Anonymous No.18053066]

>>18052866
Was it nepotism?

[Anonymous No.18053086]

>>18053066

No, I just did well in school

[Anonymous No.18053143]

>>18052866
Parasite

[Anonymous No.18053169]

>>18053143
My parents are engineers from Russia

[Anonymous No.18053261]

>>18048310
>The collapse of socialism in the East and the rise of neoliberalism in the West ended that golden age though.
lol i love this moronic narrative by the leftards. the truth is that the productivity gains have been halted so no need to raise wages

and americans keep buying shit cheap goods from china, so their purchasing power is not decreasing

[Anonymous No.18053285]

>>18053261
Based reality ignorer

[Anonymous No.18053304]

>>18048644
class consciousness doesn't exist, contrary to what you jew idol thinks

[Anonymous No.18053362]

>>18048217
>>18049182
>Alexandre Kojève (/koʊˈʒɛv/ koh-ZHEV, French: [alɛksɑ̃dʁ kɔʒɛv]; 28 April 1902 – 4 June 1968) was a Russian-born French philosopher and statesman whose philosophical seminars had an immense influence on 20th-century French philosophy, particularly via his integration of Hegelian concepts into twentieth-century continental philosophy.[3][4] As a statesman in the French government, he was instrumental in the formation of the European Union.

anybody who takes hegel seriously is a acculturated moron

[Anonymous No.18053410]

>>18053304
>some people are members of unions
>more workplaces becoming union organised every week and month
>union members earn more than workers in non-unionised workplaces on average
BTFO

[Anonymous No.18053422]

>>18048217
>>18049182
Après une thèse sur Soloviev avec Karl Jaspers, Alexandre Kojève vient en France (il sera naturalisé en 1937), où il achève de perdre sa fortune du fait de mauvais placements financiers. Contraint de trouver du travail, il va donner des conférences sur la Phénoménologie de l'Esprit de G.W.F. Hegel à l'École pratique des hautes études à Paris de 1933 à 1939.

lol, there you have it, bourgeois tries to get rich on the stock markets, completely fails, so he teaches marxism in the atheist academia and gets a career out of it.

EVERYTIME

[Anonymous No.18053523]

>>18053422
cope

[Anonymous No.18053558]

>>18049916
shut the fuck up retard

[Anonymous No.18053596]

>>18053422
What the fuck is this. Kojeve was never a Marxist, never taught Marxism, if anything his analysis of Hegel was already a Right-Hegelian reading.

Wikipedia has a reference to him self-describing as a Stalinist, but that's to some dude's personal blog with a dead link. I mean for fuck's sake he was born as a Russian aristocrat, fled the revolution and ended up as a posh intellectual Eurocrat, he clearly wasn't a fucking communist. "White Russian Aristocrat likes money", wow, genius deduction how did you sniff that one out.

[Anonymous No.18054591]

>>18053285
Leftists love to cite productivity gains but conveniently ignore that almost all of the productivity gains have in the last few decades have been caused by technology that is created by a minuscule portion of the workforce. The vast majority of workers don't deserve any additional compensation for these gains.

[Anonymous No.18054615]

>>18048081
>We first need new theory
You were born just in time, my friend.

[Anonymous No.18054738]

>>18048081
Unilateral Accelerationism

[Anonymous No.18055246]

>>18048048
>What will it take for class consciousness to replace race consciousness?
Replace biological humans that use DNA as their foundation with mindless robots that have no self as a reference point.

[Anonymous No.18055281]

I'm glad you psychopath authoritarian leftists will never get any real power lol, you people are lunatics. Just join a church, you'll get way more ass pats for your zealous delusions that way.

[Anonymous No.18055321]

Communism is a nonstarter in individualist countries like the US or UK. Much more likely that one of the former Catholic countries go Communist, France is always a possibility.

[Anonymous No.18055440]

>>18054591
>deserve
You're missing the point. It's not about who "deserves" what. It's about power. Labor has no power unless it organizes itself and creates a monopoly on itself to extract more resources. It fits right in with capitalism, really. I want more money from the greedy cunts who are hoarding it. It's that simple. All the utopian crap about class conciousness and revolution is just myth making to captivate and distract the brainless retard proletariate. And it has never even worked, workers to this day are illiterate and short sighted drones. Class consciousness! Ha! Yeah, try and instill conciousness in the hungover dolt who can't think past what he's going to drink and where he's going to drink it the coming weekend. There's never been a "revolution" that wasn't supported by entrenched moneyed interests in some way.

I really encourage leftists to start going to construction sites and factories and blue collar bars and start actually talking to workers. They may be shocked at what they find.

[Anonymous No.18055624]

>>18048048
Due to several different factors, philosophical and moral questions such as this will not required to be answered, as due to the declining internal security and trust along with breakdown of law and order, I imagine the US will be too busy fighting itself to answer these questions.
Some level of lawlessness and violence is already shown in 'certain' cities and areas of countries like France and Belgium. Western, liberal societies have already started to hit huge bumps in the road

[Anonymous No.18056031]

>>18055440
>I really encourage leftists to start going to construction sites and factories and blue collar bars and start actually talking to workers. They may be shocked at what they find.

Explain further. Do you mean that they're sometimes at the opposite end of the 'spectrum' when compared to blue-hair city larpers?

[Anonymous No.18056050]

>>18049014
>I'm just a humble beekeeper
You sound like a massive faggot also

[Anonymous No.18056062]

Met fukuyama in 2008. Nice guy.
He pretty much distanced himself from the "end of history" doctrine back then.

[Anonymous No.18056349]

>>18056062
His two books on political order are fun and informative. It's the sort of books where I understand that if I ever want to get out of shitty internet arguments I would have to read hundreds of books aswell, but that will never happen, I am part of the herd.

[Anonymous No.18056444]

>>18056031
What I mean is that for all their theory, today's self-proclaimed working class advocate theorists tend to be totally out of touch with actual working class people. How many leftists on /lit/ do you think are members of labor unions? Not many, I'd say, and it shows. Their navelgazing theorizing has nothing to do with the actual experience of workers. Workers are broadly just ordinary people lacking the capacity for broader consciousness. They can't be educated because they don't want to be educated. They want a steady job, beer money, a house and a boat. They aren't ideological besides whatever they watch on tv or see in their facebook feed. The ones above median IQ that are anything close to leftist tend to end up in labor bureaucracies and are instantly coopted into being stooges and toadies. But even those people are at best facebook socialists completely submerged in the most useless and decadent idpol. Workers get screwed by the ruling class and then left out to dry by the "revolutionaries".

The point I'm making is that leftists tend to have complex ideologies and theories about the world and yet they could not be more impotent and irrelevant.

[Anonymous No.18057477]

what i want to know is how the deep state intelligentsia of the U.S establishment view the whole idpol that came straight from the Academia, you could argue that they´re in bed with them so they don´t have a problem with it but they have to have big hubris to think this stuff isn´t dangerous for the system, i mean we´re not living in the cold war anymore, there´s no reason to go further into liberalism, at one point it just becomes anarchy, any feds can answer my doubts? i know you´re all monitoring /lit/ so don´t act like you don´t know any better