/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18079269]

Why is this shit taught in public schools still?

[Anonymous No.18079292]

>>18079269
SMBC is far from reliable quality, even as webcomics go, but I think this about sums it up.

[Anonymous No.18079294]

>>18079269
This could be useful for a 10 year old.

[Anonymous No.18079335]

the teacher must be able to understand you anon

[Anonymous No.18079352]

>>18079292
I think this only applies to kids who are already gifted and creative, but 5 paragraphs provides a "lower bound" in terms of organization and a checklist for scatterbrains (like I used to be when i was a kid) to actually get something written.

[Anonymous No.18079360]

>>18079269
>>18079292
It's a strong basic structure.

If students can't master a basic structure, how can they learn to develop unique structures?

An essential component of the five paragraph structure is that it limits the scope of the argument that can be presented.

One introductory paragraph, three support paragraphs, and a conclusion paragraph is a slight elaboration upon the basic syllogism, making it a useful tool for developing students' ability to think critically.

If a teacher fails to use the five paragraph method well, it is not a result of the method itself, but of the teacher.

[Anonymous No.18079424]

The perceived quality of students in modern schooling is judged by their ability to break from established guidelines while still maintaining a cohesive argument. It seems to be a decent (if soulless and mechanical) way of determining basic intelligence

[Anonymous No.18080187]

>>18079269
even though it's not labelled as such, this is just basic rhetoric and therefore a survival of the trivium

[Anonymous No.18081250]

>>18080187
I don't think basic rhetoric involves repeating yourself for over half of the words you write

[Anonymous No.18081397]

>>18079269
How else are you going to introduce complete novices to writing? What's so shit about it? Do it right and you have a clear paper, and thats what we're trying to teach, how to communicate clearly. So calling it shit just because you thought it was limiting when you were forced to adhere to its guidelines indicates to me that you are a sneed.

[Anonymous No.18081435]

>>18079360
>retarded burger believes that a formulaic checklist is going to teach kids something
no wonder why your education system is so shit

[Anonymous No.18081685]

>>18081397
> how to communicate clearly
it doesn't though, it just makes you sound like a retard
Paragraph 1:
>I had a good summer
>I went to the beach
>I went camping
>I went to Disneyland
>Thesis statement: Over the summer, I had a really good time swimming at the beach, camping with friends, and seeking thrills at Disney world.
Paragraph 2:
>The first thing I did this Summer was go to the beach
>I built a sand castle
>I liked swimming
>I got icecream at the board walk
>That is all I did on the beach, but that's not all I did this summer.
Paragraph 3/4 identical to 2
Pargraph 5
>In conclusion, I had a great summer
>I went to the beach
>I went camping
>I went to disney world
>I can't wait for next summer
That's how they want you to write, it's fucking retarded

[Anonymous No.18081700]

i write college papers for rich kids and this shit is just a handicap for anyone who isn't a midwit. fuck this structure and fuck bibliographies. a fucking name and title you can google is all you should ever need for a citation. if a prof finishes your paper and feels like they read something insightful and coherent, then it gets an A. i can't believe what a fucking retarded sudoku puzzle education has become

[Anonymous No.18081706]

>>18081397
fuck you you fucking retard it's dullards like you who can't inspire kids to engage meaningfully with the world on their own, that's why you test them in the first place.

[Anonymous No.18081711]

It's a useful format for basic informational writing. What's wrong with it?

[Anonymous No.18081718]

>>18081685
Haha, you wrote more clearly about your imaginary summer than your argument for why the formula is bad. Maybe you should write a 5 paragraph essay about why its not a good model; then you would actually have to explain your thinking.

[Anonymous No.18081723]

>first of
>next
>finally
>in conclusion

[Anonymous No.18081726]

>>18081706
Spoken like someone who wishes they still were a child, rather than someone who actually teaches children.

[Anonymous No.18081765]

>>18081435
Nothing is learned that is not remembered.

Any device that is useful for memory is useful for learning.

Whether a subject is engaging and whether it is memorable are separate concerns. While it is helpful to memorization that the subject is engaging, it is not necessary to find a subject engaging in order to remember it. It is not necessary that children enjoy learning to write, but it is necessary that they learn how to write.

A teacher who desires their students to write well and enjoy learning will provide them the tools to remember the components of good writing, and will present those tools in an engaging way.

You are criticizing the tool, because your teacher didn't make it engaging.

[Anonymous No.18081770]

>>18079269
>In this essay, I will explain ...

[Anonymous No.18081811]

>>18081726
you don't "teach" children, you program them to adopt a very historically contingent way of being.

[Anonymous No.18081827]

>>18079269
obviously it's an oversimplification, but some of this is solid advice. topic sentences are good for a lot of forms of writing (literary shit especially--it guides the argument of a paragraph and allows for more clarity) and topic->evidence->analysis->warranting is a fantastic argumentative pattern
>the jeroboam's story reflects melville's interest in religion in liminal space
>we see this in the development of the ship's religion as hierarchy is overthrown
>the cult associates truth with power, as whoever is in command decides what is true
>this contributes to the book's project of examining religion and its relationship to truth
you could make it cleaner obviously but just keeping that shit in there even implicitly makes your argument clear and concise.

[Anonymous No.18081907]

>>18079360
More or less this.

I teach lit & comp to first & second year uni students and most of them are too fucking dumb to write a coherent paragraph, let alone develop an idea or argument across an entire essay. Basic tools are needed for the basic dimwits churned out by the public school system.

The problem with the 1-3-1 structure is when instructors or students insist upon it too rigidly. If you can't look at it as a guide or a template from which you start, then let your ideas take form, you're probably useless.

I know everyone on this vietnamese cartoon forum is a sparkling genius who can shit out treasures of Waldun-esque beauty and clarity of thought, but most of the students I've dealt with at three different universities don't know what a grammatical sentence is.

[Anonymous No.18081908]

It’s a good general structure to follow for kids although I don’t follow it anymore.
I write in a stream of consciousness for my research papers. Hasn’t failed met yet in grad school. Have gotten 100 on every paper

[Anonymous No.18081925]

>>18081908
No offense, son, but it sounds like you either go to a shit uni or have apathetic professors.

[Anonymous No.18081938]

All of school between 6th grade and your junior year of college is completely worthless. All of it.
It's all designed to utterly sap and destroy your natural, innate love of knowledge and learning. So that by the time kids leave high school, they don't ever want to pick up a book again in their lives and most never do. They all become good little NPC wage slaves, watch their Netflix shows legally, and watch their sports games.

[Anonymous No.18081942]

>>18081938
why do they teach shakespeare to children who will never, ever be in a position to appreciate it? it's like it's planned

[Anonymous No.18081950]

>>18081938
And you were the genius that saw through the whole thing, were you?

[Anonymous No.18081962]

>>18081950
Well yeah, obviously. I'm on /lit/. And clearly you did too.

[Anonymous No.18081965]

>>18081950
he probably didn't, it's a knowledge you really only acquire with some distance between you and your school years. why do faggot americans like you always sound so threatened by the truth? seethe

[Anonymous No.18082001]

>>18081942
Once you have the realization that our politicians aren't incompetent or stupid, but instead all of the terrible shit that's happening is by design, so many things make sense.

[Anonymous No.18082027]

>>18081962
I wouldn't say that I saw through it in the way I took from your post. It's done

[Anonymous No.18082038]

i wasn't taught this. what other methods do people use?

[Anonymous No.18082047]

>>18081811
Haha, could I have some crispy chicken with my word salad?

[Anonymous No.18082052]

>>18082027
Dammit.... my post got cut off by the automatic timer.

It doesn't have to be useless, was the gist of my point. It's poorly done in the public system, but it could be/should be better.

[Anonymous No.18082078]

>>18081770
>>In this essay, I will explain ...
I see this in nonfiction books all the time, though. Authors very often provide digressions or reference content that will appear further along in the book.

[Anonymous No.18082099]

>>18081938
The AP classes in highschool are usually actually good though

[Anonymous No.18082117]

>>18082099
Maybe when you went. Now the only difference probably is that they read Black Boy instead of Native Son.

[Anonymous No.18082129]

>>18082078
It's useful and informative.

[Anonymous No.18082154]

>>18081907
It sounds like you hate your job.

[Anonymous No.18082215]

>>18082154
I don't hate it. But it can be frustrating that there are so many NPCs in the class that refuse to follow basic instructions and then complain when they get shit marks.

Like all uni faculty, I blame the administration for always choosing $$$ over what is pedagogically beneficial. In the past year, for instance, they covered losses in the budget by laying off non-tenured faculty, hiring contract sessionals, boosting class sizes, then admitting record numbers of international students who, while paying 3x the tuition, can't meet the basic English requirements for admission to the school. I'm not sure how to remotely teach composition when I have more students than I can reasonably mark and give constructive feedback to. In a context like this, having a 1-3-1 structure can help to give the NPCs a basic template for logical thought and expression. Let the cream rise on its own in such a situation.

I probably came on too negatively, but it's a stressful time of the year and I was blowing off steam on /lit, then got triggered by a toddler who doesn't know anything. My bad.

[Anonymous No.18082225]

>>18079269
>>18079292
hated this stuff in school (in the UK we called it PEEL paragraphs) because I was a pretty decent essayist and able to convey ideas in a reasonably structured and logical way without needing such a restrictive framework.

However, some children will just splurge out ideas onto the page as soon as they come into their heads, and for them it is a useful way of learning how to translate a morass of abstract thoughts into a cogent argument.

Interestingly, if you think this is a constrictive structure for an essay, check out what the Chinese used to make their students do:

> https://www.princeton.edu/~elman/documents/Eight-Legged%20Essay.pdf

And remember, if you don't pass this test, it's back to a life of peasantry. For hundreds of years this one test was the only way to get a white-collar job in China!

[Anonymous No.18082293]

>>18079269
They need to engineer those robots!

[Anonymous No.18082333]

>>18079269
>Why are you cursing in class Johnny. And you say that I'm an idiot for teaching the way I do? Well, Johnny, I want a 5 paragrpah essay on why the 5 paragraph essay is a bad structure

[Anonymous No.18082698]

>tfw when I have to write a 20-page paper and I can't do it
>tfw when I'm a final-year M.A.

I literally barely understand how people can talk for more than 5-10 pages at a time. What am I supposed to discuss for that long? There's no succinctness in academia. University is the five paragraphs in form AND function.

[Anonymous No.18082838]

>>18081711
The repetition
It’s a few pages tops, why do we need to open, repeat, repeat to close? Just write in a stream

[Anonymous No.18082864]

>MLA Formatting
>You NEED to cite your sources in this hyper-specific way, the name of the authors, name of the article, DOI, URL, and publication date might not be enough information to find the source somehow
>You need specific margins, font size, line spacing, etc.

[Anonymous No.18082868]

>>18082864
>AMPERSANDS ARE NOT ACCETPABLE IN FORMAL WRITING

[Anonymous No.18083318]

>>18080187
Are you retarded? This is not a survival of any ancient or medieval rhetorical texts. Also it has nothing to do with the trivium.

[Anonymous No.18083875]

>>18082864
Teaching you early to be a computer.

[Anonymous No.18083928]

Because it's the baby version of what you'll need to do to write an academic paper. If that annoys you I can't imagine what my schooling would have done to you. We had four paragraphs as the main body, where you needed three to four points of information per paragraph. Points of information are things like a direct quote or exact date... you know, the kind of shit you get a fact checker to run. Here's the kicker though: you lose points for getting a point of information wrong, and these essays have to be churned out four at a time, from memory, in under three hours. Most teachers would recommend putting as few points of information as possible, because putting in a quote which was not word for word, or a date or fact that was slightly inaccurate, could lose you more points than not putting it in. They open dedicated suicide hotlines for exam students the semester before the exam.

[Anonymous No.18084000]

>>18083928
lol what shithole country are you from?

[Anonymous No.18084008]

>>18084000
One with a higher quality of life than yours. If you cull the weak early, everyone else gets to be filthy rich.

[Anonymous No.18084015]

I never did bibliographies and the teachers hated me for it

[Anonymous No.18084082]

>>18082838
You need to learn how to separate your ideas into a coherent structure. Are you retarded?

[Anonymous No.18084341]

>>18079269
The alternative is the average 80iq zoomeroid writing unintelligible essays
>>18081938
>innate love of knowledge and learning
doesn't exist

[Anonymous No.18084411]

>>18084341
>doesn't exist
are you retarded? Talk to a young child, they will have some question about the world for you and will be delighted to have it answered

[Anonymous No.18084416]

>>18084008
so it's a larp, got you

[Anonymous No.18085857]

>>18081685
C-
Surprised you're not in spec. ed.

[Anonymous No.18085908]

>>18084341
>The alternative is the average 80iq zoomeroid writing unintelligible essays
That's the thing. Low IQs don't need to write more than a short sentence here and there. High IQs are restricted by those intellectual straightjackets, even as teenagers.

>>18083928
I publish in scientific journals (granted in electrical engineering which isn't the most /lit/) and I've never followed any of this bullshit. You just become a machine to write standardized papers, ten thousands are written every day in the same manner.

[Anonymous No.18085964]

>>18084082
Retard
A logical progression is more natural and understandable than a forced recursive structure.
You shouldn’t introduce parts of an argument and then expand on them - you should open with a thesis, then make the point which logically follows and build from there. At the end if some stuff needs to be moved around to fit with the rest, you can do that.

[Anonymous No.18085995]

>>18084416
>doesn't even bother to ask if Norwegian
Lazy
>I publish in scientific journals (granted in electrical engineering which isn't the most /lit/) and I've never followed any of this bullshit
So you publish without an abstract, or hypothesis and with new information in the conclusion? Let me guess, no technical writing either?

[Anonymous No.18085999]

>>18085995
Sorry forgot to quote>>18085908 for the second part.

[Anonymous No.18086032]

>>18085995
>new information in the conclusion
Nothing wrong with this, sometimes information doesn’t really fit anywhere else.

[Anonymous No.18086043]

>>18086032
It bars you from publication or gets edited out in reputable journals, the same way that writing it in crayon on a cereal box does.

[Anonymous No.18086097]

>>18084008
>>18085995
ohhh, you're one of those faggots that sells more oil per capita than Saudi Arabia and then get's on their moral high horse about your country buying lots of electric cars.

News flash- selling oil to get rich is not hard, even the Arabs can do it. Your education system is still retarded, and you're proving it beautifully

[Anonymous No.18086143]

>>18085964
>>18081685
>recursive
What the fuck.
Nothing about the five paragraph outline is making you sound like a retard, you brought that upon yourself. Do you know what summarize means?
>>Paragraph 1:
>I had good summer
>I spent most of the time outside
>we had quite a cold spring that ended in mid-june
>my parents could not take a vacation last year, so we decided to go all out
>>Paragraph 2:
>Topic statement: Over the summer, I had a really good time swimming at the beach
>The first thing I did this Summer was go to the beach
>I built a sand castle
>I liked swimming
>I got icecream at the board walk
>That is all I did on the beach, but that's not all I did this summer.
>>Paragraph 3
>Topic statement: We went on a road trip all the way to disneyland
>met mickey mouse
>paid out the ass to stand in line for 4 hours
>it was the most fun ive ever had
>>Paragraph 4
>Topic statement: I went camping with my best friend
>etc
>etc
>>Paragraph 5
>In conclusion, I had a great summer
>Florida was the best part as we rarely leave my home state
>I can't wait for next summer
How can you fuck up a structure that is designed to be as simple as possible? Also keep in mind that it is an outline, not a template.

[Anonymous No.18086184]

>>18081765
holy based

[Anonymous No.18086256]

The five-paragraph essay is flawed because it forces learners to conform to a certain rigid format that isn't necessarily the best for conveying their ideas. It has many limitations as a method for structuring an essay within educational settings. The paragraph length within each group is constrained, and the mechanics of writing are simplified by the expected format of an introductory paragraph, body paragraphs, and a concluding paragraph. Rather than focusing on their overall purpose and effectively formulating a thesis statement, learners are often distracted by the limitations of a particular format based around a strict set of guidelines.

It's flawed because it encourages students to write simply for the sake of writing, rather than writing with an actual purpose in mind. The process becomes mechanical as opposed to thoughtful. The fact that it's still taught in public schools shows how little is understood about the importance of creativity in writing.