/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18174445]

I find both platonism and Nietzsche's philosophy to be strongly compelling despite them being completely incompatible.
Does there exist a synthesis?

[Anonymous No.18174450]

Christianity.

[Anonymous No.18174460]

>>18174450
No.

[Anonymous No.18174496]

>>18174445
Funnily enough, Nietzsche takes on a whole lot from Plato, like his view of arete or the philosopher king (ubermensch) whilst Plato took on a lot from the rhetoricians and sophists. It’s hard not to be tainted by what you criticise.

[Anonymous No.18174502]

Funnily enough Plato took from Sophists and Nietzsche took from Plato.

[Anonymous No.18174508]

>>18174496
My main issue is their respective stances towards truth, Plato's forms versus Nietzsche's relativism.

[Anonymous No.18174523]

>>18174508
I’m sure you’ve read The Birth of Tragedy but I think his exploration of Platonism starts there... maybe you can get something out of it.

[Anonymous No.18174536]

Evola
/thread

[Anonymous No.18174541]

>>18174523
I've read it, I don't think it addresses what I'm talking about specifically.
>>18174536
How so?

[Anonymous No.18174561]

[Anonymous No.18174569]

>>18174445
since when is the theory of forms supposed to be some doomer blackpill thing?

[Anonymous No.18174570]

>>18174569
It's not

[Anonymous No.18174614]

>>18174569
Isn’t that meme the opposite of that?

[Anonymous No.18174690]

>>18174450
Made me laugh, thanks

[Anonymous No.18174714]

>>18174536
tpbp
/thread

[Anonymous No.18174723]

>>18174445
Nietzsche's early work is basically his hermeneutics of Plato so you can use that as a starting point to understand how his philosophy relates to Plato.

[Anonymous No.18174758]

>>18174445
They talk about different things actually, Nietzsche does not even try to understand the world, just people. Platonism is much more analytic, it tries to understand reality.

[Anonymous No.18174765]

Nietzsche completely refuted Plato. You can't reconcile them unless you're a pleb.

[Anonymous No.18174766]

>>18174450
Even that Muslim LARPer is a bit better than you right now. Not sure whether I should be happy about that.

[Anonymous No.18174772]

>>18174758
YKK is so good

[Anonymous No.18174783]

>>18174445
Orthodoxy has Plato's Forms as part of the Logos. The Forms exist in the Logos, the Son of God.

[Anonymous No.18174802]

>>18174765
How did Nietzsche "refute" Plato?

[Anonymous No.18174810]

>>18174772
Just wait 20y and you will live there, only minus cute Androids but plus Raiders.

[Anonymous No.18174819]

>>18174810
>minus cute Androids but plus Raiders.
Thanks, I hate it

[Anonymous No.18174838]

>>18174802
He did not.

[Anonymous No.18174860]

>>18174783
Early Christianity did a lot of imports from Hellenic traditions including the more brainy stuff. Some of the writing in the Apocrypha is in decent prose because of that. They actually still do this, ever read Teilhard de Chardin ? Basically you take the really hot new stuff like the Blockchain (Event Horizons for Teilhard) and then say "hey, there's Jesus right there, we always saw this coming, it's in the scripture". Add a bit math to not seem stupid but definitely keep to the original story. Muslims do this as well, like the AIDS cure or Light-Speed measurement in the Quran.

[Anonymous No.18174863]

>>18174445
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EcVGcw8LlI

Jochen Kirchhoff - Die Anderswelt

[Anonymous No.18174898]

>>18174860
https://youtu.be/ZsQRJ7dxMJU
https://youtu.be/rBG2pPFshVQ

[Anonymous No.18174921]

I encourage you anons to watch this absolutely kinographic documentary.

https://youtu.be/7jvap4ItDlk

[Anonymous No.18174979]

>>18174445
funny pic, may I save it OP?

[Anonymous No.18174982]

>>18174898
Why are you doing this ?

[Anonymous No.18174992]

>>18174982
Watch them now.

[Anonymous No.18175011]

>>18174992
I won't. I've seen one, I've seen all of them. Where did you guys come from, we didn't have you in the west 40y ago, apart from the odd Jehova's witnesses. I know, I was around then. Was you childhood that bad that you want to go back into the middle ages ? What part of "science was right" did you not get ?

[Anonymous No.18175023]

>>18174979
Haha, save it. It’s all yours.

[Anonymous No.18175031]

>>18174445
Deleuze, you're welcome.

[Anonymous No.18175032]

>>18174445
Platos influence is massive on Nietzsche. You can not read the Symposium and not see how it influenced Zarathustra. He considered himself the Anti-Platon, but one should read this in a more intimate way, than a mere radical opposition. The Influences are apparent, and one can be assured of his love. That he attacks him radically doesn't mean anything. Nietzsche attacked Wagner in his works, and yet we know that he still adored the later works of him.

And not to forget that Nietzsche considered Socrates a kind of historical earthquake. That he sees in it the foundation for the decay of the greek spirit, does not weaken his admiration for the phenomenon Socrates. Careful readers should pick up on this.
To claim that Plato and Nietzsche can not be reconciled, is like claiming that there is no reconciliation possible between Christianity and Nietzsche. If you read the Antichrist, you must be blind to not see how much Nietzsche admired the persona of Christ.

[Anonymous No.18175038]

>>18175031
Cringe

[Anonymous No.18175044]

Unironically, try Whitehead. His inversion of Plato's schema with the Forms might be to your liking.

[Anonymous No.18175048]

>>18175032
>one can be assured of his love
Cringe

[Anonymous No.18175070]

>>18175011
You are wrong and blind and brainwashed.
https://youtu.be/dETOVRuI3LM

[Anonymous No.18175085]

>>18175023
wow, thanks.

[Anonymous No.18175097]

>>18175044
>His inversion of Plato's schema with the Forms
How is process philosophy an inversion?

[Anonymous No.18175137]

>>18175070
Possibly. We are all products of our upbringing and culture. Only I am willing to admit it. Absolute truths are lethal.

[Anonymous No.18175159]

>>18175137
>Absolute truths are lethal.
Wow is that absolutely true??

[Anonymous No.18175169]

>>18174561
Based. The only correct answer.

[Anonymous No.18175196]

>>18175159
It implies god-like knowledge. And you can't modify the position once you "know for sure", you would look like and ass.

[Anonymous No.18175208]

>>18175196
Hmmm. Are you absolutely sure of this?

[Anonymous No.18175228]

>>18175208
No :) Good one.

[Anonymous No.18175235]

>>18175228
>No
Then I will disregard it.

[Anonymous No.18175278]

>>18175235
Because you are expecting absolutes. It's a figment of human psychology.

[Anonymous No.18175299]

>>18175278
Your own worldview contradicts itself.

[Anonymous No.18175303]

>>18175137
>Absolute Truths are lethal.

Not the anon you are chatting with, but I think that this response is generally symptomatic of our sick intellectual culture. Our current mania for tolerance of other ideas for being broad-minded, has led so-called philosophers to abandon the quest for absolute truth in favor of a general skepticism and (somehow) a belief in scientific naturalism ("what part of "science was right" did you not get?"). Now these two beliefs don't actually hang together, and usually you will see our broad-minded skeptic admit this fact if you push him, so that he will claim he believes that science is only relatively true or some such thing, only to go one broadly presuming the truth of scientific naturalism in another argument the following morning. It is a only a little bit bad-faithy but its whatever.

I have been trying to figure out why this sickness is so widespread: I think the essential issue is that philosophy of nature died after Hegel, and since intellectual culture was decimated after WWI no one since has had the strength to do it aright.

[Anonymous No.18175324]

>thread fills up with basically nothing but christcuck nonsense posts
Why can't you people leave the rest of us alone. This thread is about Plato and Nietzsche, christcuckery should not even enter your mind when discussing these two titans.

[Anonymous No.18175328]

>>18175324
Christniggers need to proselytize relentlessly and obnoxiously, it's the only way their retarded religion can survive.

[Anonymous No.18175339]

>>18174445

Platonism is correct but it's salience to existence is what Nietzsche calls into question

[Anonymous No.18175346]

>>18175339
If platonism is correct, how is it not relevant to our existence? If Plato was right, there is no greater endeavor than the pursuit of the Good

[Anonymous No.18175358]

>>18175303
You're coming to conclusions too quickly. I'm not even very tolerant, I just don't have the arrogance to know for sure. That's Taliban territory.

[Anonymous No.18175365]

>>18175346
>how is it not relevant to our existence?
??????????

[Anonymous No.18175369]

>>18175324
> Neetz
> Christianity shouldn’t enter your mind
nigga what

[Anonymous No.18175376]

>>18175303
Correct and this disease goes back to the Enlightenment. Dull rationalism and empiricism leads to utter meaninglessness and degeneration.

[Anonymous No.18175383]

>>18175032
Neetchfag cope.

[Anonymous No.18175386]

>>18175358
>giving up the terrain of truth to jihadists

[Anonymous No.18175399]

>>18175386
You're free to go down that path, enjoy. I mean, fuck the Renaissance, and it sure worked out for Islam. What can go wrong ?

[Anonymous No.18175419]

>>18175399
>fuck the Renaissance
Yes. And even moreso, the so-called "Enlightenment"

[Anonymous No.18175434]

>>18175419
Unironically posting this on a Computer :)

[Anonymous No.18175442]

>>18175358
>I just don't have the arrogance to know for sure. That's Taliban territory.

This is a really strange response, because it seems to confuse the belief that we can know some things with certainty with dogmatic fundamentalism.

But I think that this is a fallacious inference: sure all fanatics believe they have certain knowledge, but this in no way indicates that all those who believe they have certain knowledge of some things are fanatics.

Anyway to do another one of those 120Iq freshman-tier moves: you seem to be absolutely committed to the notion that any and all beliefs must be revisable in light of future evidence.

[Anonymous No.18175443]

>>18175434
Yes. What of it?

[Anonymous No.18175464]

>>18175358
>not being some wimpy relativist too cowardly to acknowledge absolute truths means you are some mudslime terrorist
?????????????????????

[Anonymous No.18175465]

>>18175032
This

[Anonymous No.18175486]

>>18175419

[Anonymous No.18175525]

>>18175442
No, it does no mean that all people that think this way are a danger. The same way that not all ultra-fundamental Muslim groups were doing the killing in the near east. But that is not how cultures work, the statistical outcome is that some people who know for sure will just do "the necessities" so to speak, especially in Abrahamic religions.

[Anonymous No.18175534]

>>18175464
Pretty much, you're bringing the old sickness in

[Anonymous No.18175538]

>>18175032
>is like claiming that there is no reconciliation possible between Christianity and Nietzsche
Imagine saying otherwise. I hate you christcucks so fucking much.

[Anonymous No.18175554]

>>18175538
Funny thing, the Commies, Nazis, Feminists and Muslims tried it as well.
Writing in prose and people reading only two lines may be the problem here.

[Anonymous No.18175570]

>>18175525
Ah, so you are making an empirical sociological claim, actually, postulating some sort of general tendency present in all cultures, where the belief in "lethal" absolute truths will unfortunately end up causing fanatical violence due to "how cultures work."
Is that right?

[Anonymous No.18175582]

>>18175534
You are the sick one. You are deranged. You cannot even see that you are contradicting yourself with every claim you make.

[Anonymous No.18175616]

>>18175570
Knowing for sure acts as a catalyst for other forces, making consensus less likely. People always have reason to kill each other, competition for resources for the most part. That in itself is not even necessarily bad, wars gave us some serious progress, but in recent times it could seriously threaten the survival of the species.
Also, as we have seen in Islam and to the same degree in the Middle Ages, metaphysical certainty hinders scientific progress.

[Anonymous No.18175636]

>>18175554
>the Commies, Nazis, Feminists tried it too
I can see that though.

[Anonymous No.18175640]

>>18175582
No, I'm just western in the sense the west was for the last 300y, maybe with the exception of the last 50. You're a western Sandnigger.

[Anonymous No.18175665]

>>18175640
You say there are no absolute truths, but then you want to claim that sandniggers are wrong. You have no solid basis for anythinf that you say. It's all ad hoc. You are so dumb. You are as retarded and gay as the sandniggers.

[Anonymous No.18175730]

cringe general?

[Anonymous No.18175736]

>>18175665
Only wrong from the western perspective. Competition is the key. That said, they seemed to have failed for a long time. Also, nothing wrong with gays, at least in the Greek sense.

[Anonymous No.18175754]

>>18175616
I think you are making a repeated error of confusing a certain species of people who believe they have certain knowledge, religious fundamentalists, with people who believe they have certain knowledge in general. This is a clearly fallacious inference. You need to come up with some non-religious examples some time! How does, for example, mathematical certainty hinder scientific progress? When Descartes built his entire philosophy on metaphysical certainty, did that impede his formalization of scientific method?

[Anonymous No.18175763]

>>18175736
>the relativist is also a fag enabler
Literally every time. You are so blind and relativist you think gender isn't real.

[Anonymous No.18175815]

>>18175736
>Only wrong from the western perspective.
Then you are presupposing that there exists a higher metaphysical truth above both the westerners and the sandniggers that says "This way is right for the sandniggers, this way is right for westerners" and so on. You are assuming absolute truth in your defense of relativism.

[Anonymous No.18175928]

>>18175464
>to acknowledge absolute truths
Such as?

[Anonymous No.18175931]

>>18175815
No, I'm saying somebody is bound to be the last man standing. If you wish to put some metaphysical ticket on that, be my guest. The reason I hope some cultures win and some don't is just the survival of the special. And yes, that's a target I chose. No magical deep sense, just some ape wanting his offspring to be around in 1000 years.

[Anonymous No.18175945]

>>18175763
No, gender is very real. But some dudes just want it in the ass. Who am I to judge ? The Romans and Greeks did just fine, they were even ruled by them.

[Anonymous No.18175960]

>>18175931
That graph is a very blatant lie and the term "dark ages" to describe the Medieval era was made up by Enlightenment propagandists and Freemasons.
The truth is that the Middle Ages were superior to modernity in every way.

[Anonymous No.18175961]

>>18175931
At this point, I don't think even you believe what you are saying. You started out trying to be reasonable and bottomed out in a total voluntarism divorced from reason, where all right and wrong is merely the result of inherently nonrational choice. Because of this, you cannot actually criticize any of the things you don't like (like the Taliban) because you have no standard to make reference to in your critique. You want the species to survive, they want to blow up buildings, but ultimately your desire is no better than theirs.

Why would anyone listen to you about anything, because you yourself believe your choices are utterly non-rational?

[Anonymous No.18175967]

>>18175931
What happened in May 2009?

[Anonymous No.18176000]

>>18175931
This graph is entirely made up, what is the measurement of scientific advancement?

[Anonymous No.18176035]

>>18176000
Imagine being this Asspie.I'm just provoking you.
Half of that graph is in the future :)
>>18175967
I guess that's when the graph was made and the Muslim hordes took us over

[Anonymous No.18176041]

>>18175960
The Middle Ages was mostly wars and theological droppings. Compared to the surrounding periods it was a scientific and artistic drought.

[Anonymous No.18176042]

>>18175961
You're still talking to me though

[Anonymous No.18176055]

>>18176042
I am trying to help you anon!

[Anonymous No.18176056]

>>18176041
Total propaganda. The Medieval Era was the golden age of civilization.

[Anonymous No.18176074]

>>18176055
What is so hard to understand about a Nietzschean world-view ? The species has to survive, that's all. You don't have to like the methods.

[Anonymous No.18176082]

>>18176056
Propaganda by who? Historians worldwide?

[Anonymous No.18176155]

>>18176074
It is not at all hard to understand, but it seems contradictory, and I don't want to accept something I know to be false anon. Nietzsche himself would not want you to accept his writings as part of a "world-view": he contradicted himself often, because he wanted philosophy to be more experimental and philosophers to be better attemptors.

"The species has to survive, that's all" is not at all Nietzschean by the way. It's totally a last-man way of thinking! Nietzsche would want the species to achieve certain aesthetic heights, but mere survival he would probably judge as quite pathetic.

Moreover, if you want to say that you are picking this as an arbitrary value, a value you create for itself, but which has no value in and of itself, you can be safely dismissed from serious philosophical conversation, because while you may have the ability to coerce others, you cannot rationally persuade them.

[Anonymous No.18176269]

>>18176155
I should not have said "that's all". Survival is the ultimate aim, only not on the sense you seem to understand it, living by itself is senseless for sentience, progress is part of it.
As for evaluation, there it only self-selection in the evolutionary sense. Simply by surviving a system of thought proves that is compatible with the universe. Another reason to avoid absolutes, it is about the ability to branch out to avoid annihilation.

[Anonymous No.18176286]

>>18176269
I have trouble reading this lol
Can you write it again a little more clearly?

[Anonymous No.18176345]

>>18176269
> Thought systems are still selected by evolutionary processes, civilizations die regularly. Having no absolutes means you can go different ways, so you can avoid annihilation.
> Sentience is probably rare and possibly unique in the universe. Self-preservations is more important than everything else.

[Anonymous No.18176465]

>>18176082
Freemasons, Jews, Enlightenment liberals, cuckservatives, Marxists, SJWs, Satanists, etc.

[Anonymous No.18176543]

>>18176465
I see.

I myself attribute labels like "The Dark Ages" to poor historiography rather than malicious historiography. One can see this more clearly with what is called The Greek Dark Ages. There's an ideal among historians that portrays the Homeric period of Ancient Greece as the only period with culture, even though it was stories and personalities from the so-called Greek Dark Ages that poets like Homer and Hesiod were reporting on. The idea that Greek culture started with these poets is misguided.

History is written by the winners, so there's bound to be exaggerations and biases. Any "Dark Ages" in history is really just a period that the historians of victorious cultures have decided is against their personal taste. On the one hand, you're correct, there are groups which attribute the label "Dark Ages" to periods that they view unfavorably, often ignoring the work that was being done during those periods. But on the other hand, this is all fundamentally a war of aesthetics anyway, and the Christian Middle Ages was no stranger to revising history to suit its needs.

[Anonymous No.18176748]

>>18174445
Unironically Evola.

[Anonymous No.18176754]

>>18174561
Who is that

[Anonymous No.18176776]

>>18174450
الحمد لله

[Anonymous No.18176805]

yeah
plato only got it half right
we are part of the creation and manifestation process
your will, combined with imagination, create reality
we aren't merely on the receptive end. we have very incredible creative potential but it is mostly dormant

[Anonymous No.18177092]

>>18174758
not true

[Anonymous No.18177407]

>>18174450
Christ was the übermensch who rose above the herd through his will to power and transvaluated all the values of the Romans. He said yes to his destiny rather than retreating from it. He loved his fate.

[Anonymous No.18178808]

bump

[Anonymous No.18178826]

>>18177407
>He loved his fate.
How does amor fati work when you're a neet, i.e. the last man with no special destiny?

[Anonymous No.18179642]

>>18178826
Wasn't Nietzche himself basically a neet?

[Anonymous No.18180699]

>>18179642
NEETzche haha

[Anonymous No.18180705]

>>18180699
haha

[Anonymous No.18180710]

Karl Popper

[Anonymous No.18180723]

>>18174445
>Nietzsche
>favourite book as a student: Plato's Symposium
>"my philosophy: an inverted Platonism."
>completely incompatible

It's literally the exact same philosophy with an inverted value system and ontology, where all the suprasensible is fiction (=less real) made up to withstand the meaninglessness of the sensible (=more real), while in plato it's the other way around. The two dudes are actually the beginning and end of philosophy for that very reason.

[Anonymous No.18180728]

>>18180723
this
plato was an incarnation of ahura mazda and nietzsche was ahriman

[Anonymous No.18180730]

Read the first 5 books of Plato's Laws.
Then Phaedrus, Philebus, and Book 10 of Republic.

[Anonymous No.18180739]

>>18180730
>>18174445
fug

[Anonymous No.18180754]

>>18180699
>>18180705
Lol.

[Anonymous No.18180762]

>>18174758
Completely midwit opinion with no understanding of either philosophy.

It's okay to like aesthetics, but think they're an absolute basis for reality. Platonism isn't anymore "analytic", and Nietzsche is not someone rejecting philosophy for "how to live a more exciting life".

[Anonymous No.18180774]

>>18175032
Correct opinion.

For example Nietzsche had said at times that Socrates was "the last of the pure thinkers" of Presocratic Greece.

[Anonymous No.18180786]

>>18180762
*but thinking they're an absolute basis for reality is wrong.*

[Anonymous No.18180793]

>>18174450
Nietzsche himself realised the sameness of Dionysius and Christ when he went mad and signed his letters "the Crucified".

[Anonymous No.18180811]

>>18180723
Cringe

[Anonymous No.18180813]

>>18180793
Should Nietzsche be canonized?

[Anonymous No.18180817]

>>18175032
Terrible post.

[Anonymous No.18180890]

>>18174450
Based.

[Anonymous No.18180971]

>>18180723
Nietzsche is augmented Platonism. Both share similar values, but Nietzsche refrains from conflating the forms with the true or the true with the good.

[Anonymous No.18181181]

>>18180786
Why?

[Anonymous No.18181243]

If you reject the Forms then you know nothing. Nominalism is an intellectual disease. If nothing has an essence that it shares with other objects of its kind, then there are no such objects, just arbitrary collections of particles going around. This is why we see retarded pseuds today saying "But what is gender anyway? It's just a social construct" and then they chop their cocks off. This is what nominalism leads to.

[Anonymous No.18181259]

Not being aware of the reality of Platonic Forms is spiritual blindness.

[Anonymous No.18181293]

>>18181243
>>18181259
What about conceptualism?

[Anonymous No.18181353]

>>18180793
He realized the sameness between himself and the historical Jesus of Nazareth as portrayed in his book The Antichrist, more like.

[Anonymous No.18181412]

>>18175011
>science was right
Science is just a process. It can be right or wrong depending on how the process is done and how much preliminary data you have.

[Anonymous No.18182361]

>>18181259
>male cope for muh empiricism
e=mc2

[Anonymous No.18182474]

>>18181243
>If you reject the Forms then you know nothing.
lol
e=mc2
einstein ripped it from the vedas
read thales - water as a first principle

ngmi in emptiness if you fixate on the forms
empiricism is a cope here

[Anonymous No.18183156]

>>18174450
This is true

[Anonymous No.18183202]

>>18174450
Long Live Christ King