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/lit/ - Literature


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18307717 No.18307717 [Reply] [Original]

>read the bible
>becomes an atheist
>reads pic related
>becomes enlightened

I cannot wait to learn Arabic so I can read this magnificent scripture as it was originally intended.

>> No.18307726

>>18307717
based

>> No.18307727
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18307727

IM NEVER GOING TO GET THROUGH THE QURAN AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
ITS TOO BORING

>> No.18307733

>>18307717
What appeals to you about the Quran that you didn't find in the Bible? The Quran is 90% just the Old Testament paraphrased while lacking the diversity of genres and authors that makes the Old Testament interesting.

>> No.18307741

>>18307727
This is how I felt about the bible.

>> No.18307747
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18307747

>>18307717
>this bait thread again

>> No.18307748

>>18307733
I think OP is an edgelord.

>> No.18307749

>>18307717
Muhammad didn't know how to read Arabic either, and that didn't stop him.

>> No.18307751

>>18307727
What translation are you reading?

>> No.18307757

>>18307741
I feel the same way about the Bible too.
>>18307751
I've tried reading Abdel haleem, Muhammad Asad and the translation used in the Study Quran.

>> No.18307762

>>18307757
Why are you trying so hard?

>> No.18307771

>>18307762
Because I'm interested in studying religions and I want to understand islam (among other religions).
Currently I'm stuck reading secondary sources for the Quran.

>> No.18307773

>>18307771
Sounds interesting, anon. What are these secondary sources?

>> No.18307776

>>18307771
Fair enough but just accept islam will never be an interesting religion

>> No.18307787

>>18307757
>Abdel haleem, Muhammad Asad and the translation used in the Study Quran.
If you want to read it as literature, in terms of translation, the closest you will get to the original Arabic is with the Arthur J Arberry and Pikthal.

>> No.18307794

>>18307749
But he had the power of Allah on his side.

>> No.18307803

>>18307717
Blessed.

>>18307727
It's alright, anon. Literally 999/1000 people are not of the elect.

>> No.18307804

>>18307717
There is no beauty or value in the quran. As literature it is completelt worthless. The fact that it can not be translated proves it, because a translation can not complete eradicate quality

>> No.18307817
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18307817

>>18307804
Seethe harder christshit

>> No.18307822

>>18307787
I don't think the anon would care for a more literal translation.

>> No.18307846

>>18307773
The Cambridge Companion to the Qur'an
The Koran: A Very Short Introduction
For stuff on the quran, read other general islamic books though.
>>18307776
Well I find it interesting, I like reading rulings and seeing what evidence they use, I find the religious culture to be interesting, I find the development of the schools of thought and philosophy to be interesting, also obviously sufism.
>>18307787
Alright will try those I guess.
>>18307803
I mean I'm going to force myself one day.

>> No.18307847

>>18307822
>literal
No both of those try to convey similar rhetorical and grammatical resonance, not literal.

>> No.18307852

>>18307846
>also obviously sufism
Why do all of you larpers inevitably get drawn to sufism?

>> No.18307855

>>18307852
?
Why are you calling me a larper?
I'm an atheist but I think islam is a false religion, at least it's claims at truth are less believable than Christianity and Judaism.

>> No.18307859

>>18307847
Is this the its better in arabic argument?

>> No.18307861

>>18307855
>I'm an atheist but I think islam is a false religion
Then why are you even reading about Islam?
>at least it's claims at truth are less believable than Christianity and Judaism.
Such as?

>> No.18307869

>>18307852
sufism is the decaf sōy latte version of islam that's why (and isn't obviously fake like bahai)

>> No.18307872

>>18307846
Very interesting, hope your studies go well.

>> No.18307881

>>18307869
>sufism is the decaf sōy latte version of islam
Then they don't know what sufism even is, and only base their understanding of sufism on western translated poems.

>> No.18307899

>>18307881
Tbh even the "real" sufism is sus and resembles christcuck monastic bullshit too much
Was Muhammad a sufist? No.

>> No.18307905

>>18307804
>As literature it is completelt worthless
you have never read it,its not "real" translation btw.
if you learn arabic you will soon realize how beautiful the literature is

>> No.18307909

>>18307905
Annnnd the its better in arabic argument. Its like clockwork.

>> No.18307911

>>18307846
The A J Arberry one is the better translation btw, start with that one, if its still boring try Pikthal, and if it is still so, study it as you would with The Study Quran. Never use saheeh international.

>>18307909
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLGwUmcHSMM45vYiSo6UeFU8ckWY7mR62L
The first 2 session are about the history of Imam Ghazali. Skip to session 3 to get straight into the Quranic analysis.
This is a lecture, explaining Imam's Ghazali analysis of the Quran. You will get the gist of why its rhetorically and literarily powerful in Arabic and the difficulty in translating it.
Hope this helps.

>> No.18307913

>>18307909
Annnnd the christshit seething in this life and the afterlife, like clockwork.

>> No.18307919

>>18307909
the translation isn't really a translation you idiot,its more like explaining and yeah it is better.
for example learning russian and reading "the idiot" (thats u heh) is better than reading an english translation

>> No.18307921

>>18307899
>Tbh even the "real" sufism is sus
Sufism is quite powerful and only someone without first hand experience would say something like that. Though it's intentional, the obscurity, as it's secrets are not for the weak willed.
>Was Muhammad a sufist? No.
No, but he did understand it, since he was chosen by Allah, and of course Allah wouldn't have blinded him to that facet of Islam. And it's been know he allowed them to hang around him, but they followed their own path.

>> No.18307923

>>18307861
>Then why are you even reading about Islam?
Because like I said I have an interest in religion, how is that hard to understand? I find it's development, history and theology to be very interesting.
>Such as?
The historical assumptions that underlie islam, the idea of Abraham building the kaaba is bizarre to me and then the idea that the Christian and hebrew Bibles were corrupted seems like an obvious cope to me.
>>18307869
Nah it's more that Sufism has been extremely important in islamic civilisation and islamic thought and just because people call it bidah now doesn't mean it wasn't important or interesting to read about.
>>18307911
Have you read much of ghazali?
I read parts of the incoherence of the philosophers and found it very interesting.

>> No.18307934

>>18307911
Why is it such a massive challenge to adapt the Quran into English? Its seemingly the only book in the entire world that is supposedly only good in one single language. Its certainly doesn't seem to be an Arabic problem, considering people enjoy the 1001 Arabian nights. It just seems like its an issue whenever the Quran is brought up.

>> No.18307935

>>18307919
>"the idiot" (thats u heh)
lol

>> No.18307936

>>18307803
>it is rare to be like me and it makes you special

Nazis, Muslims and all hatelarps out

>> No.18307943

>>18307859
what?

>> No.18307944

>>18307923
>Because like I said I have an interest in religion
But it's a false religion. Why would someone spend their time studying books and history about a false religion?

>> No.18307947
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18307947

>>18307936
>>it is rare to be like me and it makes you special
Yes
>hatelarps
pic

>> No.18307949

>>18307944
Anthropological and theological curiosity. It's not that bizzare.

>> No.18307950

>>18307934
>Its seemingly the only book in the entire world that is supposedly only good in one single language
all books are better in their original language dumbfuck

>> No.18307952

>>18307944
Because people assumed it was true and for lots of people it was the most important thing in their lives.

>> No.18307967

>>18307950
I guess its quantifiable, if the quran is an awful book in English, then it must be only an ok book in arabic.

>> No.18307969

>>18307911
Will try to watch thanks.
I found his series Foundations of Islam to be extremely informative and interesting, can recommend it to anyone interested in islam.

>> No.18307982

>>18307947
I actually get laid, and a huge reason for that is I don't blame my personal failings on external groups.

>> No.18307988

>>18307967
>quran bad because it bad

>>18307982
>muh dick non sequitur

the christcucks aren't sending their best...

>> No.18307989

>>18307934
I personally don't get this criticism. I don't know Arabic, and reading the AJ Arberry translation made me well up in certain verses and even cry. To me its beauty pierced through and I can very much see the divinity.

>> No.18307996

>>18307988
I doubt you're an actual muslim.
>>18307989
If it actually made you cry then I think there are good translations of the quran. Don't get all the arabic cope though that is insentiently posted on this board.

>> No.18308001

>>18307996
I mean you realise that the quran being the most beautiful and profound work of poetry is literally in their religion right?

>> No.18308010

>>18308001
Wait the quran says it is the most beautiful and profound book in the world?

>> No.18308011

>>18307899
>Was Muhammad a sufist?
Literally yes. He was the first sufi, the one who started the initiatic chain.

>> No.18308013

>>18308011
bullshit

>>18307996
>I doubt you're an actual muslim.
why

>> No.18308015

>>18308010
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge_of_the_Quran

>> No.18308024

>>18307996
The claim is created when people compare KJV with The Quran, when one is translated with certain changes for the English language, and one being specifically heretical to change it very drastically.
The KJV can't be used to study the bible for the same reason why The Quran has never had a particularly beautiful translation in juxtaposition to other scriptures.

>> No.18308030

>>18308015
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge_of_the_Quran
Holy shit LOL. No wonder, no fucking wonder.
>>18308024
While that is a solid point, I'm currently reading through the New Living Translation of the bible. I think its fine, certain parts hold a lot of power too.
>>18308013
You act like a larper who posts nothing more than soi jacks

>> No.18308043

>>18308030
yes and? where's the logic

>> No.18308044

>>18307717
These threads are worse than Gardner’s shilling.

>> No.18308049

>>18307717
>>read the bible
>>becomes an atheist
Because modern version was made for people to become literal creatures, its intended that way

>> No.18308057

the prose of the Qur'an is much more fluid and pretty than half the boring shit in the bible.

>> No.18308061

>>18307988
>Religion called submission
>others are cucks

right

>> No.18308065

>>18308061
everything submits to allah, even christcucks and other animals

>> No.18308067

>>18308013
>bullshit
Have fun in hell, wahhabi heretic!

>> No.18308073

>>18308067
Muhammad wasn't a sufi because he meditated in a cave

>> No.18308077

>>18307717
It's just the Bible but worse

>> No.18308078

>>18308065
The relationship between God and Christians is a bit different then the one between Muslims and God.

>> No.18308081

>the Quran is amazing because it says it’s amazing
Have you ever met a Muslim that didn’t use circular reasoning?

>> No.18308088

>>18308078
you don't have free will christcuck, you couldn't even choose to be born

>> No.18308100

>>18308088
...According to the muslim view. Now go be a slave to Allah, it is literally in the name after all.

>> No.18308148
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18308148

>>18307717
Oh look this thread again.

>> No.18308150

>>18308148
Where is the 2nd part?

>> No.18308152
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18308152

>>18307717
>>18308148
Get off my board mudslime larper.

>> No.18308159

>>18308100
there’s nothing in christcuckoldry that supports your liberal views amerishit

>>18308148
>yikes islam is problematic
lol

>> No.18308171

>>18308159
The slave speaks, lets see what he has to say.

>> No.18308194

>>18308171
free will is a philosophical impossibility christcuck no matter how much you cope

>> No.18308201

>>18308194
Do you have any scripture to back up that statement, slave?

>> No.18308210

>>18308201
You need “scripture” to back up your opinion, I can use reason for mine

>> No.18308217

>>18308210
I accept your concession.

>> No.18308218

>>18308217
Could you choose to be born, christcuck? Yes or no simple question

>> No.18308233

>>18308218
No, but free will is a thing. Does your religion say the same, slave?

>> No.18308253

>>18308233
>no but yes
I accept your concession

>> No.18308254

>>18307899
Sufism is just more emphasis on the Esoteric component of islam. So yes Muhammad(pbuh) was the first Sufi.

>> No.18308260

>>18308254
Islam is exoteric non plus ultra

>> No.18308263

>>18308253
>No response.
I accept your concession.

>> No.18308265

>>18308260
what?

>> No.18308271

>>18308260
He just said Sufism is esoteric, so unless you're claiming sufism isn't Islam, then you're wrong (you're still wrong)

>> No.18308277

>>18308263
It doesn’t matter if your (fake) bible says free will exists you bovine christcuck. We’ve already established it does not exist.

>>18308265
There is no esoteric component of Islam

>> No.18308286

>>18308265
>There is no esoteric component of Islam
Lol, i dont think you know what esoteric means.

>> No.18308292

>>18308277
(You) haven't even established anything, your fake book written by a pedo is your only source on this. Now get on your knees, slave.

>> No.18308295

>>18308286
Tell me what it means and I’ll very carefully explain to you why Islam doesn’t have it

>> No.18308300

>>18308286
>>18308295
This is going to be good

>> No.18308302

>>18308292
>p-pedo! s-slave!
I gracefully accept your humble concession.

>> No.18308307

>>18308292
>Pedo
Much like clockwork the occidental reveals his lack of arguments

>> No.18308308

>>18308302
No argument. Scram, rat!

>> No.18308317

>>18308307
I’m an occidental akhi. Occidental doesn’t mean christcuck

>>18308308
Liberal whining isn’t an argument

>> No.18308321

>>18308317
>Liberal whining isn’t an argument
Is this the power of a cope? Scram.

>> No.18308325

>>18308321
Yet another christcuck reduced to incoherent babbling. I’m so good

>> No.18308328

>>18308325
>Incoherent babble.

>> No.18308331

>>18308328
Who are you quoting?

>> No.18308333

>>18308331
You.

>> No.18308340

>>18308295
Its hard to define but ill give it a go,

Esotericism pertains to the inner phenomenological experience one has when adopting particular metaphysical principals. The exoteric can be thought of as a shell and the esoteric as the kernel of a human being.

>> No.18308346
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18308346

>>18308333

>> No.18308350

>>18308340
principles*

>> No.18308355

>>18308350
Thank you.

>> No.18308363
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18308363

>>18308295
Go on. Explain.

>> No.18308375

>>18308363
Book plz?

>> No.18308379
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18308379

>>18308375

>> No.18308382

>>18308379
Yikes, I was wondering why it was so shit

>> No.18308385

>>18308379
Excellent, thanks anon. I still haven't gotten around to reading any Guenon. Maybe this book will finally push me onto doing it

>> No.18308409

>>18308379
Have you read toshihiko izutsu's book on taoism and sufism?

>> No.18308432
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18308432

this thread is both shameful and shameless at the same time

>> No.18308435

>>18308409
No i have not, is it a good read? Have you read it? And if you did, what did you think of it and/or find most compelling?

>> No.18308439

>>18308432
Thanks, saved.

>> No.18308462

>>18308363
Guenon's first articles from that book are an impeccable exposition.
Also, to those afraid of the term "esoteric". Esoterism exists only in relation to exoterism and they AREN'T contradictory. In the case of Islam, Shariah is exoteric and Tasawwuf is esoteric. This terms were used by Guenon only to make it more understandable for westerners, and it has nothing to do with "occultism", "magic", etc.

>> No.18308481

>>18308435
No I haven't sadly, I've just seen it and his other works as being praised as among the best.

>> No.18308491

>>18308462
Fair enough

>> No.18308495

>>18308295
I'll explain it more plainly as opposed to the other anon.

Exoteric means changing (outward)habits in order to gain understanding, esoteric means gaining understanding in order to change habits. So in essence they complement each other and are two sides of the same coin, so to speak.

For Muslim exoteric would mean he starts praying more, giving zakah, doing good, in order to get closer to Allah. Esoteric means he would gain more understanding, read about it, contemplate it, the so so understand ehy he needs a certain habit like praying and would start doing it.

>> No.18308498

Should I buy a study quran?
It costs $100

>> No.18308505

>>18308462
Also, the term "mysticism" has pretty much the same roots as "esoterism". The only problem is that mysticism has been applied by a lot of modern scholars and christians to a lot of things which are part of the "exoteric" domain and are related just to passive phenomena(visions with angles for example), something which has nothing to do with the goal of esoterism and initiation which is achieving superior states of being(the "primordial man" and the "universal man" of "sufism" for example). This is the reason why Guenon rejected the term "mysticism", because of its application in the modern era, not because of its etymology which makes it the same as esoterism. That being said, it is very ironic how people today are afraid of "esoterism" but not of "mysticism".

>> No.18308519

>>18308498
Don’t pay for a Quran just use google and libgen. I’m a Muslim btw selling copies of Quran is haram and the person who uploads them for free gets a good deed

>> No.18308522

>>18308505
Take your lessons plebs so next time you don't critique something if you don't know what it means.

>> No.18308527

>>18308495
As long as there’s no mystic bullshit I’m fine with this

>> No.18308528

>>18308519
>I’m a Muslim btw selling copies of Quran is haram and the person who uploads them for free gets a good deed
Uploading things for free is illegal and a Muslim is supposed to follow laws. You are therefore sinnig by doing this. It amazes me how Muslims can be so nonchalant about this.

>> No.18308533

>>18308505
Didn’t Guenon used to drink semen mixed with vaginal discharge?

>> No.18308538

>>18308519
I did download an epub of it but the footnotes are at the end of each surah which basically makes the entire point of reading it redundant.
Do you have any links to rulings about selling copies of the quran btw?
I thought qurans that weren't in arabic weren't considered to be a quran anyway.

>> No.18308540

>>18308481
Thanks for the rec, i will grab a copy.

>> No.18308542

>>18308533
His own or others? The answer to this question can change the fate of entire humanity.

>> No.18308566

>>18308542
Yeah his own pussy juice

>>18308528
I told you in my post.

>>18308538
>I thought qurans that weren't in arabic weren't considered to be a quran anyway.
This is true
If you really REALLY want to be a paypig go ahead. All deeds are according to intent

>> No.18308596
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18308596

>>18307717
I read the Quran and was really disappointed. It's incoherent, full of circular logic and it doesnt offer anything better than the books it plagiarizes from.

>> No.18308604

>>18308596
You must have picked up a bible instead by mistake

>> No.18308623

>>18308604
#REKT

>> No.18308638

>>18308604
The Bible doesnt really plagiarize; it's pretty open in its claim that the NT is the fulfillment of the OT

>> No.18308653

>>18308638
Yeah because Jesus the son of God is in the OT right?
Rhetorical question

>> No.18308654

>>18308638
>It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).
Quran does the same

>> No.18308661

>>18308654
>Claims its in total confirmation with the Gospels
>Muslim have to backtrack when they realize the Gospels openly have Jesus proclaiming that he and the father are one.

>> No.18308668

>>18308661
>the father is greater than I
oopsie!

>> No.18308675

>>18308596
>books

>> No.18308679

>>18308668
How does the Quran explain John 10:30 and John 8:48?

>> No.18308682

>>18308668
>the father is greater than I
Allahu Akbar mean Allah is greatest. In the gospels Jesus says father(God) is greater than even Jesus(God or no God). Seems to me Islam is more in line with The Gospels than Christianity

>> No.18308685

>>18308682
>ignores that Jesus proclaims God to be his Father, which contradicts the Islamic doctrine that God has no begotten son
uhuh, sure, it's totally in line with the Gospels, even though the Gospels paint an entirely different Christ than the Quran

>> No.18308688

>>18308685
Father is metaphorical, as in someone greater than him with more authority ie., a father

>> No.18308692

>>18308682
Yeah

>>18308679
Surah 112
>father
God is called the father of mankind in the Bible

>> No.18308709

>>18308688
>"The father and I are one"
>"No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known."
>"This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?” But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”
Jesus refers to himself as the same as the Father. It's quite clear that the Gospels portray him as the incarnation of God, and only someone who has willingly closed his eyes by his wicked soul could conclude otherwise.

>> No.18308721

>>18308709
>the Bible is right because it’s the Bible
Talk about circular logic

>> No.18308724
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18308724

>and only someone who has willingly closed his eyes by his wicked soul could conclude otherwise.

Come on bro.

>> No.18308736

>>18308721
These are the Gospels, which the Quran claims are also divinely inspired and incorruptible. They clearly show that jesus claimed he was the son of God, which therefore contradicts the Quran.
>>18308724
Muslims, like their prophet, are filled with pride and greed. It's why Muhammad forbade people from reading the Bible, as doing so would make them realize he was a fraud with no divine sanction.

>> No.18308743

>>18308736
Which verse claims that the Gospels are incorruptible?

>> No.18308746

>>18308736
Have you read the Quran?

Do you know anything about the life of Muhammad and how he treated the christians?

Do you know its forbidden for muslims to preach to christian children?

How about you go outside or read a book. Ask God for guidence because you sound like you need it. Appaling behaviour.

>> No.18308750

>>18308743
I think he's referring to this ayah I posted
>>18308654
In it Allah says he revealed these book, the degree of corruption is unspecified

>> No.18308753

>>18308661
It claims to confirm the Gospel Jesus preached.
The Gospel according to John, Matthew or XYZ is a mix of that and fabrications.

>> No.18308756

>>18308746
The final Surah alone dispels any notions that he was benevolent or kind. It shows what he really was; a bitter, hateful man who despised anyone who didn't agree with his cult. Some Jew girl tested his divinity and he failed, as his patron was Satan, and the Devil never saves anyone.

>> No.18308757

>>18308746
>How about you go outside or read a book
This is the problem with most /lit/izens. They do read book, but it's mostly the classic the Greeks or some medieval stuff. Which is the exact reason why their ideas and misconceptions about islam and the Quran are parroted almost verbatim from Middle ages.

>> No.18308761

>>18308750
Yeah I'm confused about that anons argument.

>> No.18308763

>>18308756
The Devil curses himself and made the Arabs monotheistic?

>> No.18308765

>>18308756
>Some Jew girl tested his divinity and he failed
1. He wasn’t divine
2. He didn’t die but another guy did (and she was killed for it) which kind of defeats your point my christcuck friend

>> No.18308767

>>18308753
>The people who personally knew Jesus all intentionally corrupted his teachings or let someone in who did that.
>The real Gospel was only known by some Arab who lived 600 years later and got countless things wrong about Christianity, as if he only knew it from hearsay and not divine inspiration
Sure, bro.

>> No.18308770

>>18307905
>if you learn arabic you will soon realize how beautiful the literature is

The psalms can easily be translated from the Hebrew into any European language, and it is still beautiful and inspiring poetry.

If the Quran can not be translated, that means there is nothing to translate.

>> No.18308774

>>18308763
He cursed himself by fabricating a fake religion that bars them from Heaven. The Devil was ousted by Christ's sacrifice, not the mad ramblings of Muhammad and his fake deity.

>> No.18308775

>>18308757
I hate this reading trend just for the sake of reading, among /lit/izens. Also, fuck the greeks and all european philosophers!

>> No.18308776

>>18308767
>people who personally knew Jesus
Like Paul lol?

>> No.18308779

>>18307919
>the translation isn't really a translation you idiot,its more like explaining and yeah it is better.
>for example learning russian and reading "the idiot" (thats u heh) is better than reading an english translation
Dostoyevsky can obviously be translated into English, with it still being an interesting read based on the quality of the original text.

If this is not the case for the Quran, then it means there is nothing of value to be translated in the first place,

>> No.18308780

>>18308765
He was poisoned and spend his final days in agony. The Christians (who were truly divinely aided) were protected from such ailments and could cure one another. Muhammad could not, as he was not in God's grace, and the devil cannot heal anyone.

>> No.18308782
File: 58 KB, 976x850, 1602317480121.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18308782

>>18308756
He wasn't benevolent, its claimed he was infallible i.e never sinned, that to which there are no reports that he did anything of the such, because if he did, he would immediatley be outed.

ill probably stop replying now because you seem to be getting carried away.

>> No.18308783

>>18308775
>Also, fuck the greeks and all european philosophers!
Extremely keyed

>>18308774
>The Devil was ousted by Christ's sacrifice
Mad ramblings

>> No.18308788

>>18308780
He died 3 years after being poisoned lol

>> No.18308789

>>18308776
Paul joined the apostles and was personally acquainted with them. So either all the apostles let one guy in whom they allowed to severely alter the gospels that they had written without casting him out, or Paul's teachings were perfectly in line with what the apostles believed and taught.
These are the same people who cast out other Christians for far minor transgressions, by the way. Judge yourself which one was more likely.

>> No.18308798

>>18308783
>Mad ramblings
The Quran is mad. It's incoherent and often nonsensical, as if written by some schizo who's brains have been boiled by the desert heat.
Christ's sacrifice fulfilled the covenant of the OT, as was prophesized. Muhammad's false teachings are blasphemous innovations.

>> No.18308808

>The final Surah alone dispels any notions that he was benevolent or kind.

1 Say: I seek refuge with the Lord and Cherisher of Mankind,
2 The King (or Ruler) of Mankind,
3 The god (or judge) of Mankind,-
4 From the mischief of the Whisperer (of Evil), who withdraws (after his whisper),-
5 (The same) who whispers into the hearts of Mankind,-
6 Among Jinns and among men.

Just as you are being affected by whispers right now, its pobably a good idea to recite such a surah, lest you feel more at peace.

>> No.18308809

>>18308789
Christcucks were persecuted for centuries, they broke and had to make some concessions to their Roman masters

>> No.18308810

>>18308782
>Muhammad was infallible
>t. Muhammad
also God said you should divorce your wife so i can marry her. Im not posssessed by demons of Lust btw.

>> No.18308815

>>18308810
You're right, your possesed by somthing else. Peace.

>> No.18308823

>>18308809
These were contemporaries of Christ. They were martyred for their beliefs (Peter), and often tortured (Paul). If anything, their belief in Christ's divinity is what caused the persecution of both the Romans and Jews.
It's not like with some notable desert cult that changes his entire belief in religious freedom once he got in power. They weren't hypocritical frauds, after all.

>> No.18308833

>>18308815
The muslims scurries away, unable to admit that he follows a false prophet. He will surely burn in Hell, as he will have no advocate on the day of Judgment.

>> No.18308836

>>18308810
Do you have any evidence that the islamic tradition didn't consider muhammad to be infallible?
I don't understand the point in your post.

>> No.18308839
File: 2.03 MB, 480x270, 1619307997769.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18308839

Attention to the /pol/ fag and the muslim zoomer who can't go 2 posts without saying "christcuck":

Fuck both of you, you ruin every thread related to the Quran or islam.
Please go back to /pol/ or the youtube comment section.

>> No.18308849

>>18308836
I don't, i just pointed out that Muhammad's infallibility was just a curtain he used to justify his own unholy lusts. It was arbitrary and used for ad hoc justifications of whatever he wanted. It's similar to how modern cults operate.
>>18308839
Im not a /pol/fag as Christ commanded us to make disciples of all nations.

>> No.18308856

>>18308839
Tbf the thread started with a shitpost so you shouldn't expect anything of value out of it.

>> No.18308864

>>18308798
>It's incoherent and often nonsensical
filtered
>Christ's sacrifice fulfilled the covenant of the OT
christians act like they don't care about the OT, they say that Jesus came to fulfill and not abolish the law but they don't follow the law, you eat pork. Why don't you get circumcised? Because Paul the INNOVATOR said so...

>> No.18308870

A part from a hymn of the book of the death. Can anyone say this is less beautiful then the Quran, it sounds more beautiful to me.

>Isis embraceth thee in peace, and she driveth away the fiends from the mouth of thy paths. Thou turnest thy face upon Amentet, and thou makest the earth to shine as with refined copper. Those who have lain down (i.e., the dead) rise up to see thee, they breathe the air and they look upon thy face when the Disk riseth on its horizon; their hearts are at peace inasmuch as they behold thee, O thou who art Eternity and Everlastingness

>> No.18308871

>>18308833
1. Bismi l-lāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm
In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

2. al ḥamdu lil-lāhi rab-bi l-‘ālamīn
2 All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the ‘Alamin

3. ar raḥmāni r-raḥīm
The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

4. Māliki yawmi d-dīn
The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)

iy-yāka na‘budu wa’iy-yāka nasta‘īn
5. You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).

ihdinā ṣ-ṣirāṭa l-mustaqīm
6. Guide us to the Straight Way

Ṣirāṭa l-lazīna ’an‘amta ‘alayhim, ghayri l-maghḍūbi ‘alayhim wala ḍ-ḍāl-līn
7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger, nor of those who went astray.

>> No.18308872

>>18308856
The second post started a good discussion but then the muh rapist warlord and christcuck muslim apologist took note of this thread.

>> No.18308879
File: 13 KB, 657x527, Apu.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18308879

>>18308839
I dont even believe in God, i just think it's stupid when Muslims claim that the Gospel is in accordance with the Quran, or that there was some original radically different Gospel that was in accordance with the Quran.
Even contemporary secular historians dont believe that the original Gospels were corrupted or that the original Christians didnt believe in the Divinity of Christ. It's not just found in John, it's found in all the synoptic gosples and probably Q as well. It requires schizo-tier conspiracy thinking to think otherwise.
The literary value of the

>> No.18308880

>>18308871
>Homage to thee, O creator of the gods, thou King of the North and of the South, O Osiris, victorious one, ruler of the world in thy gracious seasons; thou art the lord of the celestial world. Oh, grant thou unto me a path whereon I may pass in peace, for I am just and true; I have not spoken lies wittingly, nor have I done aught with deceit

>> No.18308889

>>18308864
Read the NT and what was revealed to Peter following Cornelius' conversion. Also read up on the difference between disciplinary law of the covenant (which was fulfilled) and moral law (which is eternal).

>> No.18308893
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18308893

>>18308880
Not the same metaphysics, but very nice.

>> No.18308894

>>18308879
The jews got him. RIP

>> No.18308897

>>18308889
>Read the NT
I did that’s why I’m a muslim lol

>> No.18308904

>>18308897
Then you already know why the law of the covenant was fulfilled according to prophecy, and this question is pointless.

>> No.18308909

>>18308904
the joke
your head

>> No.18308913

>>18308909
The fate of your eternal soul is not a laughing matter.

>> No.18308917

>>18308893
The point I am trying to make is that the person who translated it, clearly was not a good poety, just an academic trying to make some old dusty archeological text accesible. Now Egyptian, Hebrew and Arabic are all related languages.

So why can an old Egyptian hymn be translated and it is still beautiful, but not the Quran, with its billion followers and plenty of money?

I mean when I read this I just see strenght, nobility, honor, respect, vivid imagery, a deep and complex mythology, it still works after thousands of years. But the Quran....

>“Hail, Thoth, who didst make Osiris to triumph over his enemies, make thou Mut-hetep, victorious, to triumph over her enemies in the presence of the great divine sovereign chiefs who live with Osiris, the lord of life. The great god who dwelleth in his Disk cometh forth, that is, Horus the avenger of his father Unnefer-Ra. Osiris setteth, and the Khus who are in the Tuat (underworld) say: Homage to thee, O thou who comest as Tem, and who comest into being as the creator of the gods. Homage to thee, O thou who comest as the holy Soul of souls, who dwellest in the horizon. Homage to thee who art more glorious than [all] the gods and who illuminest the Tuat with thine Eye. Homage to thee who sailest in thy glory and who goest round about it in thy Disk.”

>> No.18308922

>>18308879
>contemporary secular historians don't believe the original gospels were corrupted
new testament textual critics are in consensus that there were changes made to the synoptic gospels. Also, there were original christians who were apart of heretical groups that were fighting other sects (which influenced the scribes into manipulating the texts to support their agendas) until Constantine supported Orthodoxy.

>> No.18308923

>>18308913
I believe in Allah I’ll be fine :^)

>> No.18308927

>>18308923
why are you responding in my name lol

>> No.18308930

>>18308904
according to prophecy made in books we don't have anymore. like seriously dont you know that the earliest complete opy of the Pentateuch that we have is from 1000 ce?

>> No.18308932

>>18308922
Lets say there where changes to the New Testament, why no read the New Testament with criticism explaining the changes, instaid of inventing a whole new disjointed text and calling it the Quran?

>> No.18308935

>>18308927
That’s what brothers do

>> No.18308937

>>18308922
The changes are usually minor textual differences; not rewriting the very essence of the text. The codex vaticanus and sinaiticus do not have any major theological differences.
The existence of heresies also doesn't prove that the text originally had any other meaning, as the Bible also spawned gnostic heresies, even though the texts openly condemn gnostic tenets.

>> No.18308941

>>18308923
>I turst my soul on a false prophet who is already in Hell
You will stand before his tribunal with no one to vouch for you.

>> No.18308942

>>18308932
Because the Quran was revealed by God, maybe ask him.

>> No.18308945

>>18308879
>Even contemporary secular historians dont believe that the original Gospels were corrupted or that the original Christians didnt believe in the Divinity of Christ.
Anon... the "original Christians" differed widely in what they believe Jesus preached.
I know it's a cliché to mention Bart Ehrman but he's the most prominent secular historian who believes the Gospels have been corrupted and the divinity of Christ was a man-made invention.

>> No.18308946

>>18308917
Lol, because its not the same thing. The themes in the Quran are meant to covey a message. To make it more dazzling than it is for the sake of style is the poison the well.

>> No.18308949

>>18308941
>preach monotheism
>false prophet
Pick one you seething bible thumping retard

>> No.18308952

>>18308942
>Because the Quran was revealed by God, maybe ask him.
It obviously was not revealed by God, because its not great art nor poetry.... and if it cant be translated then this proves its not great art nor poetry, because the psalms and egyptian books of the death can be translated and they keep some of their beauty.

I honestly cant see how you could arque around it. A work revealed by God, would have to be great art.

>> No.18308960

>>18308879
>>18308945
Maybe the "divinity of Christ" is also related to bad interpretation.

>> No.18308961

>>18308949
>Claims that a man (who is by nature not perfect) is infallible, which is something no prophet before has claimed
>Not a polytheist
Muslims revere Muhammad more than pagans revere their false idols.

>> No.18308962
File: 255 KB, 519x538, Capture.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18308962

For all those in this thread who are obsessed with bashing the aesthetic of the Quran, are you really going to tell Allah on the day of judgment that you didn't become Muslim because the guidebook He sent to save your soul was "boring"?

>> No.18308964

>>18308946
>Lol, because its not the same thing. The themes in the Quran are meant to covey a message. To make it more dazzling than it is for the sake of style is the poison the well.
How do you convey a message, when the message is not beautiful? Does not inspire?

Either you are religious, you wish to taste God, or you are some soulless lawyer, which islam basically is.

Again, muslims cant really arque this.

>> No.18308966

>>18308952
Why is a christshit cocksucking Egyptian pagan fairy tales?

>> No.18308969

>>18308960
Considering it was already noted by Jewish and Roman scholars of the time, probably not.

>> No.18308971

>>18308962
>For all those in this thread who are obsessed with bashing the aesthetic of the Quran, are you really going to tell Allah on the day of judgment that you didn't become Muslim because the guidebook He sent to save your soul was "boring"?
Yes, is God boring? WTF?

What kind of world do you life in where you think the creator is somehow boring? God would be life wouldnt he?

>> No.18308976

>>18308966
>Why is a christshit cocksucking Egyptian pagan fairy tales?
Let me walk you though this... slowly.... but large parts of Europe's population are not longer Christian.

Now, if the psalms and the books of the death are more beautiful then the quran, then it makes them more true. period.

>> No.18308978

>>18308962
>Day of Judgment
>Go to Heaven for accepting God's only begotten son
>Ask Jesus how anyone could be tempted by such an obviously man-made mess of a text
>God replies that the pride and greed in the hearts of the wicked will cause them to accept any texts, even when those texts are anathema (as he has revealed)

>> No.18308982

>>18308964
>How do you convey a message, when the message is not beautiful? Does not inspire?
Who the fuck are you to judge this lmao. Muslims along the centuries who had more knowledge than you considered the Quran to be a beautiful work.

>> No.18308984

>>18308982
That proves Muslims are tasteless cultists, not that the Quran is a great text. Cause it isnt.

>> No.18308987

>>18308976
Atheism is a christcuck heresy. European whites got redpilled on the stupidity of the bible

>Now, if the psalms and the books of the death are more beautiful then the quran, then it makes them more true. period.
Most sōyboy shit I’ve read this year.

>> No.18308991

>>18308978
Why does god need a son?

>> No.18308994

>>18308982
>Who the fuck are you to judge this lmao. Muslims along the centuries who had more knowledge than you considered the Quran to be a beautiful work.
I am a White man.

Besides that, if I read broadly, works from different traditions and muslim only read the quran, obiously I am more qualified to make a judgement.

The Quran is bad literature, thus a lie. I would more honestly claim some novelist is inspired by God then the Quran.

Also I am White man.

>> No.18308995

>>18308964
In arabic its beautiful, in english also, but less so.

You can be inspired by the translation, i personally have. Its the message that's important, and the metaphysical and existential themes and realizations that one comes to when reading it.

The book is literally talking to you, it has a distinct style and the issue is that you want it to be more beautiful to inspire you, when the fact is, that its only through the process of reason and contemplation.

We can wish it was more compelling, but its not for a book to convince us, it says if you contemplate enough, you will come to spiritual realization. Thats just what i think.

>>18308982
Dont be so rude bro.

>> No.18308998

>>18308971
The Quran is not boring. Muslims read it for hours without getting bored. The companions used to faint while reading it because the word of their Lord spoke to them; and it obviously does not speak to you because you have a disease in your heart that causes you to place romance and vapid aestheticism over the practical world. Despite what you say, the Quran has endless divine insights within it and the reason why you are failing to recognize it is because you are influenced by the zeitgeist.

https://youtu.be/di8WbE2WSo0

>> No.18309002

>>18308945
Ehrman is in vogue because reddit atheists can point to him and say "lol, heckin christianity is a lie, christ probably didnt exist!". He's like Stephen Jay Gould in that sense, in that he just disregards any scholarship that contradicts him. Though sometimes he slips up, as in "The Triumph of Christianity", wherein he tacitly admits that it's unlikely that Paul innovated anything besides converting gentiles and that the early Christians most certainly believed in Christ's divinity.

>> No.18309003

>>18308987
>Atheism is a christcuck heresy. European whites got redpilled on the stupidity of the bible
Islam is atheism, it neither worships beauty nor reason.

>Most sōyboy shit I’ve read this year.
In other words its the exact opposite, I am doing the opposite of a onions boy and demanding a religious text is beautiful and some merit.

>> No.18309004

>>18308991
Why can't God have a son? Is He not omnipotent? Can He not cast His essence in a human form, as He once breathed life into Adam?

>> No.18309008

>>18309002
If Christ is divine why did he die?
>b-but he was revived
Yes and? So will be everyone else on judgement day

>> No.18309013

>>18309003
>Islam is atheism
Absolute full retard

>>18309004
Not an answer, idiot

>> No.18309014

>>18308995
>In arabic its beautiful, in english also, but less so.
If we can translate the Psalms and the Book of the Death and they are still beautiful and we cant do that with the Quran, then there is nothing to translate.

>Its the message that's important,
If that where true, you would read political texts. You dont.

>We can wish it was more compelling, but its not for a book to convince us
Bizar logic, it is the job of a Holy Text to bring us to contemplate the higher through its beauty, if a text is not beautiful, it is not religious.

>> No.18309019

>>18309003
>it neither worships beauty nor reason.
Allah being the Lord of the Worlds and therefore has domain over beauty and reason. Muslim worshipping Allah therefore by extent worships beauty and reason.

>> No.18309020

>>18309014
Drink some sōylent and relax.

>> No.18309021

>>18309008
He died so that the covenant was fulfilled, so that the sin of Adam could be forgiven, and that those who died before Jesus could also be given his teaching in the harrowing of hell.

>> No.18309027

>>18308998
>The Quran is not boring. Muslims read it for hours without getting bored.
The majority of Muslims can not even read, so this is literally a lie.

I also dont see how doing a mindnumbing thing for hours is even positive? I dont read poetry for hours, I feel inspired read some if, comtemplate it and then put it away.

Again, Islam turns religion in a death and grueling task.

>> No.18309028

>>18309021
Again, not an answer

>> No.18309031

>>18309004
Christians don't really understand how lowly a human being is compared to God. No wonder! Endless centuries of pagan tribes combining the human and the divine what with the Egyptians Pharaoh and the human-like idols of desert tribes makes it no wonder why Christians created the doctrine of hypostatic union.

Let me ask you something. If I said you are going to be turned into a pile of shit tomorrow, you'd be embarrassed and insulted and would lash out at me for daring to put you in comparison with shit. How do you think Allah feels when you say He turned into a human being?

>> No.18309032

>>18309027
>Again, Islam turns religion in a death and grueling task.
>>>/r/exmuslim is that away

>> No.18309035

>>18309013
>Absolute full retard
Are there philosophical texts in the Quran and hadith? No. Is it beautiful poetry? No. alright muslims are atheists using words they do not understand.

>>18309019
>Muslim worshipping Allah therefore by extent worships beauty and reason.
So muslim worship Dante?

>>18309020
>Drink some sōylent and relax.
Yes, Islam as opium (onions) for the masses.

>> No.18309036

>>18309003
> demanding a religious text is beautiful and some merit.
People dont demand it, but Muslims cant shut up about the "noble Quran", the most beautiful Quran, a work of which there can never be anything like it, only to end up with a text that is barely sub-par and has been surpassed by quite a few human authors, both before and after it.
Buddhist texts, for example, are excruciatingly boring. But no one really cares about it, because Buddhists dont go on and on about how beautiful the Suttas are. They arent, and they know it.

>> No.18309041

>>18309032
>is that away
I am a White man. Again, why would repeating the same text over and over without understanding it make you more religious?

>> No.18309042

>>18309028
Yes it is an answer. Muslims dont accept it because their pride blinds them from the sin in which they are born. They wont believe they need salvation until they stand before the gates of Hell, and itll be too late.

>> No.18309043

>>18309027
>majority of muslims cannot even read
wow i was talking to a troll this entire time

>> No.18309047

>>18309014
>If we can translate the Psalms and the Book of the Death and they are still beautiful and we cant do that with the Quran, then there is nothing to translate.
What point are you trying to make? Your convinced its not beautiful? Ok well your entitled to you opinion.

>If that where true, you would read political texts. You don't.
Why would i read political texts? i want moral guidance and a reminder of whats truly important.

>Bizar logic, it is the job of a Holy Text to bring us to contemplate the higher through its beauty, if a text is not beautiful, it is not religious.
Yeah, and your basically saying, its not good enough for me. I'm beginning to doubt you actually read the thing cover to cover.

>> No.18309048

>>18309036
Why does the noble Quran make you seethe so hard?

>>18309035
Philosophy is useless wordplay
>I think therefore I am
Alright, and?
Not even trolling btw

>> No.18309055

>>18309031
>God made man in His own image
>Muslim compares humans to shit
>Muslim thereby compares God's image to that of shit
Besides that, you also deny God's omnipotence, because you are implying that God cannot cast his essence in a human body. Your analogy harbours two insults to God, either of which would be a mortal sin on its own.

>> No.18309056

>>18309036
Still, people dislike buddhists too, that said, some buddhists texts do have merit, I have to look up which one, but I did find beautiful and deep statements as well as good poetry in some of their works.

Muslims has to invent sufi literature to make up for the shortcomings of the quran and hadith, thats just sad.

>> No.18309061

>>18309043
>wow i was talking to a troll this entire time
This is a fact, most muslims are illiterate.

>> No.18309063

This is an Islamic board now.

>> No.18309069

>>18309056
>Muslims has to invent sufi literature to make up for the shortcomings of the quran and hadith, thats just sad.
Sufi literature is a natural expression of the beauty of Quran, you ignoramus. The source is the Quran, and it nourished some of the greatest works of poetry in existence, you philistine

>> No.18309072

>>18309048
Why does it make you seethe so hard to realize the Quran is just a sub par text? Does it make you seethe knowing that Homer already surpassed it a millennium before?

>> No.18309074

>>18309047
>What point are you trying to make? Your convinced its not beautiful? Ok well your entitled to you opinion.
Its an opinion, then you are an enemy of Islam, because Muslims see it as a fact.

>Why would i read political texts? i want moral guidance and a reminder of whats truly important.
Again, if you did you would read political texts....

>>18309047
>Yeah, and your basically saying, its not good enough for me. I'm beginning to doubt you actually read the thing cover to cover.
Why would it be any other way? I mean, why would I lover myself.

Also, you are not a muslim but a leftist.

>> No.18309082

>>18309048
>Philosophy is useless wordplay
Nice, the Quran somehow isnt even though it doesnt make sense.

>>18309069
>The source is the Quran, and it nourished some of the greatest works of poetry in existence, you philistine
If sufi poetry is better then the Quran then the quran should be abandoned. period. If it is not, it should be ignored.

Cant arque yourself out of this.

>> No.18309088

>>18309056
>Muslims has to invent sufi literature to make up for the shortcomings of the quran and hadith, thats just sad.
Ibn Arabi and all sufis claimed that their teachings are already in the Quran, is not their fault that you can't get beyond the letter. Do you think that your judgement of their work is better than theirs?

>> No.18309093
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18309093

Whats the historical consensus on the historicity of Muhammad?

>> No.18309096

>>18309074
>Its an opinion, then you are an enemy of Islam, because Muslims see it as a fact.
You are an enemy because you have a differing opinion? Bro honestly calm down this is silly.

>Again, if you did you would read political texts....
Not going to argue this.

>Why would it be any other way? I mean, why would I lower myself.
Lower yourself? So you haven't read it and your claiming it lacks beauty. Dude, i don't know what to say to you.

>> No.18309097

>>18309082
>If sufi poetry is better then the Quran then the quran should be abandoned. period. If it is not, it should be ignored.
>Cant arque yourself out of this.
I can and I will. If the greatest poets in history read the Quran and say wow that is beautiful here are my poems which reflect it's beauty, how is this not a proof of it's beauty? In fact, it even goes beyond and above it since these poems are only an approximation of it's beauty and are therefore not the real thing.

>> No.18309100

>>18309088
>Ibn Arabi and all sufis claimed that their teachings are already in the Quran, is not their fault that you can't get beyond the letter. Do you think that your judgement of their work is better than theirs?
They are deluded, simple as.

Either their works are better then the Quran and the Quran should be ignored, or they are worse then the Quran and their poetry should be ignored.

This also applies to Christianity, Augustine is better then the Bible. For example

>> No.18309105

>>18309055
>>18309055
>God made man in His own image
you've misinterpreted this (probably deliberately). You are obviously aware of the difference between human beings and shit, but you fail to realize the difference between human beings and God because you have combined the two in your pagan creed, so you don't give God the same respect you give yourselves. Also, I didn't say He can't do it, but He does not go against what befits His Godhead, which is the reason why He won't lie or die.

>> No.18309108

>>18309096
>You are an enemy because you have a differing opinion? Bro honestly calm down this is silly.
Yes, mate, thats what Muslims belief, proving you are a leftist and not a muslim.

>>18309096
>Not going to argue this.
No, because it is true.

>>18309096
>So you haven't read it and your claiming it lacks beauty
Making up facts about someone you dont know, yeah you are a leftist, leftist always just make up things then start believing in it.

>> No.18309109

>>18309100
>This also applies to Christianity, Augustine is better then the Bible.
Showcases your ignorance. The Bible is the source of and the standard of beauty against which every artform in the West is measured against. If you read literature and think Moby Dick is beautiful, then you've already gotten a taste of the beauty of the Bible. Same goes with the Quran and the Islamic world.

>> No.18309113

>>18309097
>how is this not a proof of it's beauty?
sigh, because it obiously wasnt the quran the inspired them, but their Persian heritage, good genes, and God himself.

>> No.18309114

>>18309113
>because it obiously wasnt the quran the inspired them but God
>The Quran is the word of god

>> No.18309117

>>18309109
>The Bible is the source of and the standard of beauty against which every artform in the West is measured against.

Its not though, even during the dark ages, the inspiration for a lot of poetry would be the local traditions, some of which survive in the poetic edda, equally from very early on a lot greek and latin works where already translated.....

Again, completely uneducated....

>> No.18309122

>>18309117
There's really no arguing with a pagan.

>> No.18309123

>>18309114
>The Quran is the word of god
No, because its not beautiful....

>> No.18309131

>>18309123
I am God and I say it's beautiful.

>> No.18309135

>>18309100
All Sufi Esotercism is derived from from the Quran, this is irrefutable. There may have been other influences, but Islam is perennial by nature.

Also, every thing productive of another is always more excellent than the nature of the thing produced.

>>18309108
Leftist? Lol. Good one bro, iI thought you were joking.

>> No.18309139

>>18309122
>There's really no arguing with a pagan.
No such thing as a pagan, fantasy world that doesnt mean anything, You are an atheist.

>> No.18309145

>>18309131
>I am God and I say it's beautiful.
wow, just reached the core of islam. the worship of the self.

>> No.18309154

>>18309145
Man was made in the image of God. If you worship God, you are worshipping the self.

>> No.18309155

>>18309105
This is just arbitrarily deciding what does and does not befit God's Godhood, which ultimatley boils down to a limited and very human perception of what God ought and ought not do. One could just as easily ask why God would feel the need to communicate with people in a lowly human language to begin with to inform them of a flawed approximation of His will.

>> No.18309156

>>18309135
>All Sufi Esotercism is derived from from the Quran, this is irrefutable. There may have been other influences, but Islam is perennial by nature.
Just like Christian mysticism has more to do with Plato or vague Eddaic ways of thinking that survived in the German language, Sufism has more to do with a variety of Gnostic, Zoroastrian and what not traditions that survived in the region.

>>18309135
>perennial
Yup leftist

>>18309135
>Also, every thing productive of another is always more excellent than the nature of the thing produced.
gibberish.

>> No.18309166

>>18309093
A muhammad like figure existed, but what he really thought cannot be discerned, as even the most reliable hadith cant be trusted, and many have been edited or fabricated later on.

>> No.18309171

>>18309154
>Man was made in the image of God. If you worship God, you are worshipping the self.
Great to know, lets all become muslim worship the self and smoke hashish.

>> No.18309173

>>18309156
>Sufism has more to do with a variety of Gnostic, Zoroastrian and what not traditions that survived in the region.
How can one be this deluded? Sufism is the expression of Islam, there's no argument you can build your worldview upon.

>> No.18309178

>>18309156
>gibberish.
That was a proposition from proclus elements.

I got nothing else to say to you, Peace.

>> No.18309179
File: 111 KB, 1200x1200, 1575467272985.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18309179

None of you have convinced me to believe in God, and i have only grown to despise you more after this thread.

>> No.18309181
File: 131 KB, 1242x1394, EmadQlXWMAY044y.jpg_large.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18309181

>>18309171
>Great to know, lets all become muslim worship the self and smoke hashish.

>> No.18309187

>>18309173
>How can one be this deluded? Sufism is the expression of Islam, there's no argument you can build your worldview upon.
Its not, again, you have some kind of impression that Islam entered on some cultural wasteland, when it was the other way around, Persian cultured entered the cultural wasteland that was the Islamic religion.

Same thing happened to Christianity.

>> No.18309193

>>18309179
No one here wants you to let alone is trying, If you were of good character, the story might be different. We are here to discuss literature not convert people.

>> No.18309195

>>18309178
>That was a proposition from proclus elements.
Yes, because I must respect him and think him to be true somehow. I dont. I am not a neoplatonist.

Also, again, if you value Proclus, why are you a muslim.

>> No.18309199

>>18309187
>Same thing happened to Christianity.
Does this somehow undermine the Christian inspired artwork for the past two thousand years?

>> No.18309205

>>18309195
>Also, again, if you value Proclus, why are you a muslim.
>Muslims are uneducated and can't read
>Finds a Muslim that reads philosophy
>Why are you reading it as a Muslim
Jesus Christ, lit.

>> No.18309207

>>18309199
>Does this somehow undermine the Christian inspired artwork for the past two thousand years?
No, but it could mean that artwork is more relevant and more beautiful then the Bible itself.

>> No.18309210

>>18309082
Why do you consistently misspell “argue”

>> No.18309213

>>18309100
From your conclusion it is obvious to me that you are one of those agnostic type of people who are obsessed with reading about religions but aren't religious.

>> No.18309214

>>18309207
>No, but it could mean that artwork is more relevant and more beautiful then the Bible itself.
Is Harry Potter more beautiful than Lord of The Rings?

>> No.18309221

>>18309205
Seriously, awnser me this question, you are a Muslim and Proclus is not, why value this mans work at all?

Quran is literally the word of God and Proclus is just some confused pagan. Why read him?

Where you the one using the term perenial, because that has fuck all to do with islam.

Again, leftist pretending to be muslims pretending to be occultists.

>> No.18309229

>>18309210
>Why do you consistently misspell “argue”
Not native english speaker.

>>18309213
>From your conclusion it is obvious to me that you are one of those agnostic type of people who are obsessed with reading about religions but aren't religious.
I rarely read about religion, I mostly read novels, poetry and such sort of stuff, which I see as being more inspired then a lot of "holy texts"

>> No.18309237

>>18309214
>Is Harry Potter more beautiful than Lord of The Rings?
No, because neither of them are beautiful, they are both shit.

>> No.18309240

what a horrible thread

>> No.18309243

>>18309240
Seconded

>> No.18309244

>>18309221
There are many corresponding metaphysical themes present in Proclus elements, that are consistent with the themes present in the Quran.

You haven't read either so I wouldn't expect you to get it, dont reply to me again.

>> No.18309247

>>18309229
>I mostly read novels, poetry and such sort of stuff, which I see as being more inspired then a lot of "holy texts"
Any good poetry or literature is inspired by a divine feeling, the capacity for which is cultivated through religious education. You are a completely confused mongrel.

>> No.18309252

>>18309244
>There are many corresponding metaphysical themes present in Proclus elements, that are consistent with the themes present in the Quran.
Right, what does this have to with being a proper muslim.

Either Islam is true, or it is not.

Again, just a leftist pretending to be a muslim, pretending to be an occultist.

>> No.18309260

>>18309247
>the capacity for which is cultivated through religious education.
Really, then please explain why many of the great poetry of ancient greece was inspired by shepards living in the wilderness, who the muses got hold off.

>> No.18309267

>>18309260
>the greek works weren't divinely inspired
Have you read anything in your entire life? Every page of every Greek work mentions some god at least once.

>> No.18309278

>>18309267
>Have you read anything in your entire life? Every page of every Greek work mentions some god at least once.
Exactly, my point entirely, almost every greek work mentiones a god. Again, if some shepard from the wilds was inspired by the muses to suddenly make poetry, then the he was directly inspired, he would not have needed a religious education.

>> No.18309291

>>18309267
Greek “gods” are fake

>> No.18309296

>>18309278
>Again, if some shepard from the wilds was inspired by the muses to suddenly make poetry, then the he was directly inspired, he would not have needed a religious education.
And somehow this is more believable and if you replace muses with Jahwe/Jesus/Allah you suddenly stop believing it's possible?

>> No.18309305

>>18307717
literally how

i got halfway through cows before i realized the author had all the intellectual capacity of a fucking child

>> No.18309313

>>18309305
>i got halfway through cows before i realized the author had all the intellectual capacity of a fucking child
If you haven't been raised in a Muslim culture don't read the Quran front to back, instead read it back to front, or in arabic that would be not back to front, but front to back.

>> No.18309316

>>18309296
>And somehow this is more believable and if you replace muses with Jahwe/Jesus/Allah you suddenly stop believing it's possible?
You are just pretending I belief certain things now. I gotta give credit to muslims, they usually dont try to put arguments in there I never made.

I never made the claim that I was an atheist.

>> No.18309342

>>18309313
A book so shitty the later chapters have to abrogate earlier ones.

>> No.18309374

>>18309342
Nope, the latter chapters were revealed first, and the earlier chapters were revealed later. Those that were compiling made the choice to switch it

>> No.18309378

>>18309260
Are you fucking stupid?

>> No.18309739

>>18308798
Koran was originally a bastardized translation of an Aramaic Nestorian text into Arabic.
For example, in Aramaic, "virgins in heaven" translates into "grapes on a vine", which makes more thematic sense.
It's possible that Muhammad didn't even exist, and the Rashidun just did a quick, botched translation job to create a fictional character in order to unite warring, disparate Arab tribes.
Islam was invented and propagated purely for imperial and geopolitical purposes.
Christianity is better because Jesus was initially a celestial spirit meant to guide people to gnosis. It originated for more complex reasons, but I think Jesus was "euhemerized" for a number of reasons. I do not believe in a historical Jesus either.

>> No.18309753

>>18309739
Also, Buddha didn't exist either. He was a tree shrine god initially.

>> No.18309764

>>18307905
Is it truly beautiful, or is it just considered beautiful and imitated because of its status?

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