>read the bible >becomes an atheist >reads pic related >becomes enlightened I cannot wait to learn Arabic so I can read this magnificent scripture as it was originally intended.

File: 518 KB, 1600x1067, Quran-Wallpaper-2012-1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Mon May 24 04:17:07 2021 No.18307717 [Reply] [Original]

>read the bible
>becomes an atheist
>reads pic related
>becomes enlightened

I cannot wait to learn Arabic so I can read this magnificent scripture as it was originally intended.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:19:39 2021 No.18307726 >>18307717 based

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:20:01 2021 No.18307727 File: 10 KB, 249x249, 1532092403859.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] IM NEVER GOING TO GET THROUGH THE QURAN AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ITS TOO BORING

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:23:09 2021 No.18307733 >>18307717 What appeals to you about the Quran that you didn't find in the Bible? The Quran is 90% just the Old Testament paraphrased while lacking the diversity of genres and authors that makes the Old Testament interesting.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:24:50 2021 No.18307741 >>18307727 This is how I felt about the bible.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:25:29 2021 No.18307747 File: 52 KB, 625x626, 1609713326827.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>18307717 >this bait thread again

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:25:31 2021 No.18307748 >>18307733 I think OP is an edgelord.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:25:43 2021 No.18307749 >>18307717 Muhammad didn't know how to read Arabic either, and that didn't stop him.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:25:57 2021 No.18307751 >>18307727 What translation are you reading?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:27:14 2021 No.18307757 >>18307741 I feel the same way about the Bible too. >>18307751 I've tried reading Abdel haleem, Muhammad Asad and the translation used in the Study Quran.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:27:50 2021 No.18307762 >>18307757 Why are you trying so hard?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:29:15 2021 No.18307771 >>18307762 Because I'm interested in studying religions and I want to understand islam (among other religions). Currently I'm stuck reading secondary sources for the Quran.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:29:51 2021 No.18307773 >>18307771 Sounds interesting, anon. What are these secondary sources?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:30:08 2021 No.18307776 >>18307771 Fair enough but just accept islam will never be an interesting religion

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:33:17 2021 No.18307787 >>18307757 >Abdel haleem, Muhammad Asad and the translation used in the Study Quran. If you want to read it as literature, in terms of translation, the closest you will get to the original Arabic is with the Arthur J Arberry and Pikthal.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:34:54 2021 No.18307794 >>18307749 But he had the power of Allah on his side.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:36:27 2021 No.18307803 >>18307717 Blessed. >>18307727 It's alright, anon. Literally 999/1000 people are not of the elect.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:37:00 2021 No.18307804 >>18307717 There is no beauty or value in the quran. As literature it is completelt worthless. The fact that it can not be translated proves it, because a translation can not complete eradicate quality

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:40:22 2021 No.18307817 File: 143 KB, 599x289, 1615565953929.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>18307804 Seethe harder christshit

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:41:50 2021 No.18307822 >>18307787 I don't think the anon would care for a more literal translation.

Anonymous Mon May 24 04:48:02 2021 No.18307846

>>18307773
The Cambridge Companion to the Qur'an
The Koran: A Very Short Introduction
For stuff on the quran, read other general islamic books though.
>>18307776
Well I find it interesting, I like reading rulings and seeing what evidence they use, I find the religious culture to be interesting, I find the development of the schools of thought and philosophy to be interesting, also obviously sufism.
>>18307787
Alright will try those I guess.
>>18307803
I mean I'm going to force myself one day.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:48:05 2021 No.18307847 >>18307822 >literal No both of those try to convey similar rhetorical and grammatical resonance, not literal.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:49:08 2021 No.18307852 >>18307846 >also obviously sufism Why do all of you larpers inevitably get drawn to sufism?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:50:29 2021 No.18307855 >>18307852 ? Why are you calling me a larper? I'm an atheist but I think islam is a false religion, at least it's claims at truth are less believable than Christianity and Judaism.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:51:05 2021 No.18307859 >>18307847 Is this the its better in arabic argument?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:51:30 2021 No.18307861 >>18307855 >I'm an atheist but I think islam is a false religion Then why are you even reading about Islam? >at least it's claims at truth are less believable than Christianity and Judaism. Such as?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:53:26 2021 No.18307869 >>18307852 sufism is the decaf sōy latte version of islam that's why (and isn't obviously fake like bahai)

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:55:28 2021 No.18307872 >>18307846 Very interesting, hope your studies go well.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 04:57:43 2021 No.18307881 >>18307869 >sufism is the decaf sōy latte version of islam Then they don't know what sufism even is, and only base their understanding of sufism on western translated poems.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:01:17 2021 No.18307899 >>18307881 Tbh even the "real" sufism is sus and resembles christcuck monastic bullshit too much Was Muhammad a sufist? No.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:03:37 2021 No.18307905 >>18307804 >As literature it is completelt worthless you have never read it,its not "real" translation btw. if you learn arabic you will soon realize how beautiful the literature is

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:04:44 2021 No.18307909 >>18307905 Annnnd the its better in arabic argument. Its like clockwork.

Anonymous Mon May 24 05:05:28 2021 No.18307911

>>18307846
The A J Arberry one is the better translation btw, start with that one, if its still boring try Pikthal, and if it is still so, study it as you would with The Study Quran. Never use saheeh international.

>>18307909
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLGwUmcHSMM45vYiSo6UeFU8ckWY7mR62L
The first 2 session are about the history of Imam Ghazali. Skip to session 3 to get straight into the Quranic analysis.
This is a lecture, explaining Imam's Ghazali analysis of the Quran. You will get the gist of why its rhetorically and literarily powerful in Arabic and the difficulty in translating it.
Hope this helps.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:06:01 2021 No.18307913 >>18307909 Annnnd the christshit seething in this life and the afterlife, like clockwork.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:06:24 2021 No.18307919 >>18307909 the translation isn't really a translation you idiot,its more like explaining and yeah it is better. for example learning russian and reading "the idiot" (thats u heh) is better than reading an english translation

Anonymous Mon May 24 05:06:34 2021 No.18307921

>>18307899
>Tbh even the "real" sufism is sus
Sufism is quite powerful and only someone without first hand experience would say something like that. Though it's intentional, the obscurity, as it's secrets are not for the weak willed.
>Was Muhammad a sufist? No.
No, but he did understand it, since he was chosen by Allah, and of course Allah wouldn't have blinded him to that facet of Islam. And it's been know he allowed them to hang around him, but they followed their own path.

Anonymous Mon May 24 05:06:38 2021 No.18307923

>>18307861
>Then why are you even reading about Islam?
Because like I said I have an interest in religion, how is that hard to understand? I find it's development, history and theology to be very interesting.
>Such as?
The historical assumptions that underlie islam, the idea of Abraham building the kaaba is bizarre to me and then the idea that the Christian and hebrew Bibles were corrupted seems like an obvious cope to me.
>>18307869
Nah it's more that Sufism has been extremely important in islamic civilisation and islamic thought and just because people call it bidah now doesn't mean it wasn't important or interesting to read about.
>>18307911
Have you read much of ghazali?
I read parts of the incoherence of the philosophers and found it very interesting.

Anonymous Mon May 24 05:09:07 2021 No.18307934

>>18307911
Why is it such a massive challenge to adapt the Quran into English? Its seemingly the only book in the entire world that is supposedly only good in one single language. Its certainly doesn't seem to be an Arabic problem, considering people enjoy the 1001 Arabian nights. It just seems like its an issue whenever the Quran is brought up.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:09:13 2021 No.18307935 >>18307919 >"the idiot" (thats u heh) lol

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:09:20 2021 No.18307936 >>18307803 >it is rare to be like me and it makes you special Nazis, Muslims and all hatelarps out

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:10:44 2021 No.18307943 >>18307859 what?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:10:48 2021 No.18307944 >>18307923 >Because like I said I have an interest in religion But it's a false religion. Why would someone spend their time studying books and history about a false religion?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:11:25 2021 No.18307947 File: 39 KB, 600x600, st,small,507x507-pad,600x600,f8f8f8.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>18307936 >>it is rare to be like me and it makes you special Yes >hatelarps pic

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:12:15 2021 No.18307949 >>18307944 Anthropological and theological curiosity. It's not that bizzare.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:12:43 2021 No.18307950 >>18307934 >Its seemingly the only book in the entire world that is supposedly only good in one single language all books are better in their original language dumbfuck

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:13:25 2021 No.18307952 >>18307944 Because people assumed it was true and for lots of people it was the most important thing in their lives.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:16:44 2021 No.18307967 >>18307950 I guess its quantifiable, if the quran is an awful book in English, then it must be only an ok book in arabic.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:16:49 2021 No.18307969 >>18307911 Will try to watch thanks. I found his series Foundations of Islam to be extremely informative and interesting, can recommend it to anyone interested in islam.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:19:07 2021 No.18307982 >>18307947 I actually get laid, and a huge reason for that is I don't blame my personal failings on external groups.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:21:17 2021 No.18307988 >>18307967 >quran bad because it bad >>18307982 >muh dick non sequitur the christcucks aren't sending their best...

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:21:31 2021 No.18307989 >>18307934 I personally don't get this criticism. I don't know Arabic, and reading the AJ Arberry translation made me well up in certain verses and even cry. To me its beauty pierced through and I can very much see the divinity.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:23:28 2021 No.18307996 >>18307988 I doubt you're an actual muslim. >>18307989 If it actually made you cry then I think there are good translations of the quran. Don't get all the arabic cope though that is insentiently posted on this board.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:24:39 2021 No.18308001 >>18307996 I mean you realise that the quran being the most beautiful and profound work of poetry is literally in their religion right?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:27:00 2021 No.18308010 >>18308001 Wait the quran says it is the most beautiful and profound book in the world?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:27:00 2021 No.18308011 >>18307899 >Was Muhammad a sufist? Literally yes. He was the first sufi, the one who started the initiatic chain.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:27:32 2021 No.18308013 >>18308011 bullshit >>18307996 >I doubt you're an actual muslim. why

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:28:02 2021 No.18308015 >>18308010 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge_of_the_Quran

Anonymous Mon May 24 05:30:16 2021 No.18308024

>>18307996
The claim is created when people compare KJV with The Quran, when one is translated with certain changes for the English language, and one being specifically heretical to change it very drastically.
The KJV can't be used to study the bible for the same reason why The Quran has never had a particularly beautiful translation in juxtaposition to other scriptures.

Anonymous Mon May 24 05:32:31 2021 No.18308030

>>18308015
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge_of_the_Quran
Holy shit LOL. No wonder, no fucking wonder.
>>18308024
While that is a solid point, I'm currently reading through the New Living Translation of the bible. I think its fine, certain parts hold a lot of power too.
>>18308013
You act like a larper who posts nothing more than soi jacks

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:37:14 2021 No.18308043 >>18308030 yes and? where's the logic

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:38:03 2021 No.18308044 >>18307717 These threads are worse than Gardner’s shilling.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:38:46 2021 No.18308049 >>18307717 >>read the bible >>becomes an atheist Because modern version was made for people to become literal creatures, its intended that way

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:42:05 2021 No.18308057 the prose of the Qur'an is much more fluid and pretty than half the boring shit in the bible.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:43:11 2021 No.18308061 >>18307988 >Religion called submission >others are cucks right

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:44:24 2021 No.18308065 >>18308061 everything submits to allah, even christcucks and other animals

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:44:30 2021 No.18308067 >>18308013 >bullshit Have fun in hell, wahhabi heretic!

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:45:39 2021 No.18308073 >>18308067 Muhammad wasn't a sufi because he meditated in a cave

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:46:27 2021 No.18308077 >>18307717 It's just the Bible but worse

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:46:39 2021 No.18308078 >>18308065 The relationship between God and Christians is a bit different then the one between Muslims and God.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:47:14 2021 No.18308081 >the Quran is amazing because it says it’s amazing Have you ever met a Muslim that didn’t use circular reasoning?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:48:41 2021 No.18308088 >>18308078 you don't have free will christcuck, you couldn't even choose to be born

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 05:50:44 2021 No.18308100 >>18308088 ...According to the muslim view. Now go be a slave to Allah, it is literally in the name after all.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:01:43 2021 No.18308148 File: 2.44 MB, 1696x6224, 01C001A4-00A9-4CD7-8F46-67612F5D1B78.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>18307717 Oh look this thread again.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:02:35 2021 No.18308150 >>18308148 Where is the 2nd part?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:02:47 2021 No.18308152 File: 2.37 MB, 1336x6290, 3983BE23-4024-40F3-8FB8-FA9513385BAA.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>18307717 >>18308148 Get off my board mudslime larper.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:04:14 2021 No.18308159 >>18308100 there’s nothing in christcuckoldry that supports your liberal views amerishit >>18308148 >yikes islam is problematic lol

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:07:53 2021 No.18308171 >>18308159 The slave speaks, lets see what he has to say.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:12:16 2021 No.18308194 >>18308171 free will is a philosophical impossibility christcuck no matter how much you cope

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:13:58 2021 No.18308201 >>18308194 Do you have any scripture to back up that statement, slave?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:15:29 2021 No.18308210 >>18308201 You need “scripture” to back up your opinion, I can use reason for mine

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:17:19 2021 No.18308217 >>18308210 I accept your concession.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:17:59 2021 No.18308218 >>18308217 Could you choose to be born, christcuck? Yes or no simple question

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:22:18 2021 No.18308233 >>18308218 No, but free will is a thing. Does your religion say the same, slave?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:27:46 2021 No.18308253 >>18308233 >no but yes I accept your concession

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:28:21 2021 No.18308254 >>18307899 Sufism is just more emphasis on the Esoteric component of islam. So yes Muhammad(pbuh) was the first Sufi.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:30:00 2021 No.18308260 >>18308254 Islam is exoteric non plus ultra

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:30:35 2021 No.18308263 >>18308253 >No response. I accept your concession.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:30:53 2021 No.18308265 >>18308260 what?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:31:54 2021 No.18308271 >>18308260 He just said Sufism is esoteric, so unless you're claiming sufism isn't Islam, then you're wrong (you're still wrong)

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:33:00 2021 No.18308277 >>18308263 It doesn’t matter if your (fake) bible says free will exists you bovine christcuck. We’ve already established it does not exist. >>18308265 There is no esoteric component of Islam

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:35:26 2021 No.18308286 >>18308265 >There is no esoteric component of Islam Lol, i dont think you know what esoteric means.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:37:27 2021 No.18308292 >>18308277 (You) haven't even established anything, your fake book written by a pedo is your only source on this. Now get on your knees, slave.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:37:53 2021 No.18308295 >>18308286 Tell me what it means and I’ll very carefully explain to you why Islam doesn’t have it

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:38:27 2021 No.18308300 >>18308286 >>18308295 This is going to be good

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:38:55 2021 No.18308302 >>18308292 >p-pedo! s-slave! I gracefully accept your humble concession.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:39:54 2021 No.18308307 >>18308292 >Pedo Much like clockwork the occidental reveals his lack of arguments

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:40:00 2021 No.18308308 >>18308302 No argument. Scram, rat!

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:42:20 2021 No.18308317 >>18308307 I’m an occidental akhi. Occidental doesn’t mean christcuck >>18308308 Liberal whining isn’t an argument

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:43:49 2021 No.18308321 >>18308317 >Liberal whining isn’t an argument Is this the power of a cope? Scram.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:45:05 2021 No.18308325 >>18308321 Yet another christcuck reduced to incoherent babbling. I’m so good

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:45:57 2021 No.18308328 >>18308325 >Incoherent babble.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:46:50 2021 No.18308331 >>18308328 Who are you quoting?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:47:29 2021 No.18308333 >>18308331 You.

Anonymous Mon May 24 06:49:18 2021 No.18308340

>>18308295
Its hard to define but ill give it a go,

Esotericism pertains to the inner phenomenological experience one has when adopting particular metaphysical principals. The exoteric can be thought of as a shell and the esoteric as the kernel of a human being.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:51:01 2021 No.18308346 File: 43 KB, 600x551, 836b35337e2733ba0fcf52a73f06f122.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>18308333

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:52:13 2021 No.18308350 >>18308340 principles*

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:53:29 2021 No.18308355 >>18308350 Thank you.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:55:20 2021 No.18308363 File: 410 KB, 1152x1536, IMG_0181.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>18308295 Go on. Explain.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:57:56 2021 No.18308375 >>18308363 Book plz?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:58:46 2021 No.18308379 File: 19 KB, 417x600, 51F8qjNNbxL._AC_UL600_SR417,600_.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>18308375

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 06:59:43 2021 No.18308382 >>18308379 Yikes, I was wondering why it was so shit

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 07:00:20 2021 No.18308385 >>18308379 Excellent, thanks anon. I still haven't gotten around to reading any Guenon. Maybe this book will finally push me onto doing it

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 07:05:05 2021 No.18308409 >>18308379 Have you read toshihiko izutsu's book on taoism and sufism?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 07:10:11 2021 No.18308432 File: 648 KB, 968x712, Shuja_Shah_Durrani_of_Afghanistan_in_1839.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] this thread is both shameful and shameless at the same time

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 07:10:24 2021 No.18308435 >>18308409 No i have not, is it a good read? Have you read it? And if you did, what did you think of it and/or find most compelling?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 07:11:27 2021 No.18308439 >>18308432 Thanks, saved.

Anonymous Mon May 24 07:17:55 2021 No.18308462

>>18308363
Guenon's first articles from that book are an impeccable exposition.
Also, to those afraid of the term "esoteric". Esoterism exists only in relation to exoterism and they AREN'T contradictory. In the case of Islam, Shariah is exoteric and Tasawwuf is esoteric. This terms were used by Guenon only to make it more understandable for westerners, and it has nothing to do with "occultism", "magic", etc.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 07:23:54 2021 No.18308481 >>18308435 No I haven't sadly, I've just seen it and his other works as being praised as among the best.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 07:25:46 2021 No.18308491 >>18308462 Fair enough

Anonymous Mon May 24 07:26:22 2021 No.18308495

>>18308295
I'll explain it more plainly as opposed to the other anon.

Exoteric means changing (outward)habits in order to gain understanding, esoteric means gaining understanding in order to change habits. So in essence they complement each other and are two sides of the same coin, so to speak.

For Muslim exoteric would mean he starts praying more, giving zakah, doing good, in order to get closer to Allah. Esoteric means he would gain more understanding, read about it, contemplate it, the so so understand ehy he needs a certain habit like praying and would start doing it.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 07:27:27 2021 No.18308498 Should I buy a study quran? It costs $100

Anonymous Mon May 24 07:29:14 2021 No.18308505

>>18308462
Also, the term "mysticism" has pretty much the same roots as "esoterism". The only problem is that mysticism has been applied by a lot of modern scholars and christians to a lot of things which are part of the "exoteric" domain and are related just to passive phenomena(visions with angles for example), something which has nothing to do with the goal of esoterism and initiation which is achieving superior states of being(the "primordial man" and the "universal man" of "sufism" for example). This is the reason why Guenon rejected the term "mysticism", because of its application in the modern era, not because of its etymology which makes it the same as esoterism. That being said, it is very ironic how people today are afraid of "esoterism" but not of "mysticism".

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 07:32:25 2021 No.18308519 >>18308498 Don’t pay for a Quran just use google and libgen. I’m a Muslim btw selling copies of Quran is haram and the person who uploads them for free gets a good deed

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 07:33:13 2021 No.18308522 >>18308505 Take your lessons plebs so next time you don't critique something if you don't know what it means.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 07:33:58 2021 No.18308527 >>18308495 As long as there’s no mystic bullshit I’m fine with this

Anonymous Mon May 24 07:34:12 2021 No.18308528

>>18308519
>I’m a Muslim btw selling copies of Quran is haram and the person who uploads them for free gets a good deed
Uploading things for free is illegal and a Muslim is supposed to follow laws. You are therefore sinnig by doing this. It amazes me how Muslims can be so nonchalant about this.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 07:35:00 2021 No.18308533 >>18308505 Didn’t Guenon used to drink semen mixed with vaginal discharge?

Anonymous Mon May 24 07:35:26 2021 No.18308538

>>18308519
I did download an epub of it but the footnotes are at the end of each surah which basically makes the entire point of reading it redundant.
Do you have any links to rulings about selling copies of the quran btw?
I thought qurans that weren't in arabic weren't considered to be a quran anyway.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 07:35:52 2021 No.18308540 >>18308481 Thanks for the rec, i will grab a copy.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 07:36:04 2021 No.18308542 >>18308533 His own or others? The answer to this question can change the fate of entire humanity.

Anonymous Mon May 24 07:39:28 2021 No.18308566

>>18308542
Yeah his own pussy juice

>>18308528
I told you in my post.

>>18308538
>I thought qurans that weren't in arabic weren't considered to be a quran anyway.
This is true
If you really REALLY want to be a paypig go ahead. All deeds are according to intent

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 07:49:22 2021 No.18308596 File: 27 KB, 600x418, 1564990698417.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>18307717 I read the Quran and was really disappointed. It's incoherent, full of circular logic and it doesnt offer anything better than the books it plagiarizes from.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 07:51:21 2021 No.18308604 >>18308596 You must have picked up a bible instead by mistake

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 07:55:04 2021 No.18308623 >>18308604 #REKT

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 07:58:38 2021 No.18308638 >>18308604 The Bible doesnt really plagiarize; it's pretty open in its claim that the NT is the fulfillment of the OT

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:01:44 2021 No.18308653 >>18308638 Yeah because Jesus the son of God is in the OT right? Rhetorical question

Anonymous Mon May 24 08:01:57 2021 No.18308654

>>18308638
>It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).
Quran does the same

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:04:06 2021 No.18308661 >>18308654 >Claims its in total confirmation with the Gospels >Muslim have to backtrack when they realize the Gospels openly have Jesus proclaiming that he and the father are one.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:05:02 2021 No.18308668 >>18308661 >the father is greater than I oopsie!

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:07:11 2021 No.18308675 >>18308596 >books

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:08:33 2021 No.18308679 >>18308668 How does the Quran explain John 10:30 and John 8:48?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:09:29 2021 No.18308682 >>18308668 >the father is greater than I Allahu Akbar mean Allah is greatest. In the gospels Jesus says father(God) is greater than even Jesus(God or no God). Seems to me Islam is more in line with The Gospels than Christianity

Anonymous Mon May 24 08:11:10 2021 No.18308685

>>18308682
>ignores that Jesus proclaims God to be his Father, which contradicts the Islamic doctrine that God has no begotten son
uhuh, sure, it's totally in line with the Gospels, even though the Gospels paint an entirely different Christ than the Quran

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:12:20 2021 No.18308688 >>18308685 Father is metaphorical, as in someone greater than him with more authority ie., a father

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:12:46 2021 No.18308692 >>18308682 Yeah >>18308679 Surah 112 >father God is called the father of mankind in the Bible

Anonymous Mon May 24 08:17:03 2021 No.18308709

>>18308688
>"The father and I are one"
>"No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known."
>"This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?” But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”
Jesus refers to himself as the same as the Father. It's quite clear that the Gospels portray him as the incarnation of God, and only someone who has willingly closed his eyes by his wicked soul could conclude otherwise.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:18:58 2021 No.18308721 >>18308709 >the Bible is right because it’s the Bible Talk about circular logic

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:19:22 2021 No.18308724 File: 49 KB, 720x707, IMG_0103.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >and only someone who has willingly closed his eyes by his wicked soul could conclude otherwise. Come on bro.

Anonymous Mon May 24 08:21:21 2021 No.18308736

>>18308721
These are the Gospels, which the Quran claims are also divinely inspired and incorruptible. They clearly show that jesus claimed he was the son of God, which therefore contradicts the Quran.
>>18308724
Muslims, like their prophet, are filled with pride and greed. It's why Muhammad forbade people from reading the Bible, as doing so would make them realize he was a fraud with no divine sanction.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:23:20 2021 No.18308743 >>18308736 Which verse claims that the Gospels are incorruptible?

Anonymous Mon May 24 08:23:54 2021 No.18308746

>>18308736
Have you read the Quran?

Do you know anything about the life of Muhammad and how he treated the christians?

Do you know its forbidden for muslims to preach to christian children?

How about you go outside or read a book. Ask God for guidence because you sound like you need it. Appaling behaviour.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:24:50 2021 No.18308750 >>18308743 I think he's referring to this ayah I posted >>18308654 In it Allah says he revealed these book, the degree of corruption is unspecified

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:25:27 2021 No.18308753 >>18308661 It claims to confirm the Gospel Jesus preached. The Gospel according to John, Matthew or XYZ is a mix of that and fabrications.

Anonymous Mon May 24 08:26:12 2021 No.18308756

>>18308746
The final Surah alone dispels any notions that he was benevolent or kind. It shows what he really was; a bitter, hateful man who despised anyone who didn't agree with his cult. Some Jew girl tested his divinity and he failed, as his patron was Satan, and the Devil never saves anyone.

Anonymous Mon May 24 08:26:45 2021 No.18308757

>>18308746
>How about you go outside or read a book
This is the problem with most /lit/izens. They do read book, but it's mostly the classic the Greeks or some medieval stuff. Which is the exact reason why their ideas and misconceptions about islam and the Quran are parroted almost verbatim from Middle ages.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:27:34 2021 No.18308761 >>18308750 Yeah I'm confused about that anons argument.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:27:45 2021 No.18308763 >>18308756 The Devil curses himself and made the Arabs monotheistic?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:27:49 2021 No.18308765 >>18308756 >Some Jew girl tested his divinity and he failed 1. He wasn’t divine 2. He didn’t die but another guy did (and she was killed for it) which kind of defeats your point my christcuck friend

Anonymous Mon May 24 08:28:32 2021 No.18308767

>>18308753
>The people who personally knew Jesus all intentionally corrupted his teachings or let someone in who did that.
>The real Gospel was only known by some Arab who lived 600 years later and got countless things wrong about Christianity, as if he only knew it from hearsay and not divine inspiration
Sure, bro.

Anonymous Mon May 24 08:29:08 2021 No.18308770

>>18307905
>if you learn arabic you will soon realize how beautiful the literature is

The psalms can easily be translated from the Hebrew into any European language, and it is still beautiful and inspiring poetry.

If the Quran can not be translated, that means there is nothing to translate.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:29:41 2021 No.18308774 >>18308763 He cursed himself by fabricating a fake religion that bars them from Heaven. The Devil was ousted by Christ's sacrifice, not the mad ramblings of Muhammad and his fake deity.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:29:50 2021 No.18308775 >>18308757 I hate this reading trend just for the sake of reading, among /lit/izens. Also, fuck the greeks and all european philosophers!

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:29:53 2021 No.18308776 >>18308767 >people who personally knew Jesus Like Paul lol?

Anonymous Mon May 24 08:30:47 2021 No.18308779

>>18307919
>the translation isn't really a translation you idiot,its more like explaining and yeah it is better.
>for example learning russian and reading "the idiot" (thats u heh) is better than reading an english translation
Dostoyevsky can obviously be translated into English, with it still being an interesting read based on the quality of the original text.

If this is not the case for the Quran, then it means there is nothing of value to be translated in the first place,

Anonymous Mon May 24 08:30:48 2021 No.18308780

>>18308765
He was poisoned and spend his final days in agony. The Christians (who were truly divinely aided) were protected from such ailments and could cure one another. Muhammad could not, as he was not in God's grace, and the devil cannot heal anyone.

Anonymous Mon May 24 08:30:53 2021 No.18308782
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>>18308756
He wasn't benevolent, its claimed he was infallible i.e never sinned, that to which there are no reports that he did anything of the such, because if he did, he would immediatley be outed.

ill probably stop replying now because you seem to be getting carried away.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:30:58 2021 No.18308783 >>18308775 >Also, fuck the greeks and all european philosophers! Extremely keyed >>18308774 >The Devil was ousted by Christ's sacrifice Mad ramblings

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:32:28 2021 No.18308788 >>18308780 He died 3 years after being poisoned lol

Anonymous Mon May 24 08:32:43 2021 No.18308789

>>18308776
Paul joined the apostles and was personally acquainted with them. So either all the apostles let one guy in whom they allowed to severely alter the gospels that they had written without casting him out, or Paul's teachings were perfectly in line with what the apostles believed and taught.
These are the same people who cast out other Christians for far minor transgressions, by the way. Judge yourself which one was more likely.

Anonymous Mon May 24 08:34:17 2021 No.18308798

>>18308783
>Mad ramblings
The Quran is mad. It's incoherent and often nonsensical, as if written by some schizo who's brains have been boiled by the desert heat.
Christ's sacrifice fulfilled the covenant of the OT, as was prophesized. Muhammad's false teachings are blasphemous innovations.

Anonymous Mon May 24 08:36:35 2021 No.18308808

>The final Surah alone dispels any notions that he was benevolent or kind.

1 Say: I seek refuge with the Lord and Cherisher of Mankind,
2 The King (or Ruler) of Mankind,
3 The god (or judge) of Mankind,-
4 From the mischief of the Whisperer (of Evil), who withdraws (after his whisper),-
5 (The same) who whispers into the hearts of Mankind,-
6 Among Jinns and among men.

Just as you are being affected by whispers right now, its pobably a good idea to recite such a surah, lest you feel more at peace.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:36:35 2021 No.18308809 >>18308789 Christcucks were persecuted for centuries, they broke and had to make some concessions to their Roman masters

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:36:41 2021 No.18308810 >>18308782 >Muhammad was infallible >t. Muhammad also God said you should divorce your wife so i can marry her. Im not posssessed by demons of Lust btw.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:37:39 2021 No.18308815 >>18308810 You're right, your possesed by somthing else. Peace.

Anonymous Mon May 24 08:39:06 2021 No.18308823

>>18308809
These were contemporaries of Christ. They were martyred for their beliefs (Peter), and often tortured (Paul). If anything, their belief in Christ's divinity is what caused the persecution of both the Romans and Jews.
It's not like with some notable desert cult that changes his entire belief in religious freedom once he got in power. They weren't hypocritical frauds, after all.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:40:30 2021 No.18308833 >>18308815 The muslims scurries away, unable to admit that he follows a false prophet. He will surely burn in Hell, as he will have no advocate on the day of Judgment.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:40:50 2021 No.18308836 >>18308810 Do you have any evidence that the islamic tradition didn't consider muhammad to be infallible? I don't understand the point in your post.

Anonymous Mon May 24 08:41:19 2021 No.18308839
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Attention to the /pol/ fag and the muslim zoomer who can't go 2 posts without saying "christcuck":

Fuck both of you, you ruin every thread related to the Quran or islam.
Please go back to /pol/ or the youtube comment section.

Anonymous Mon May 24 08:42:33 2021 No.18308849

>>18308836
I don't, i just pointed out that Muhammad's infallibility was just a curtain he used to justify his own unholy lusts. It was arbitrary and used for ad hoc justifications of whatever he wanted. It's similar to how modern cults operate.
>>18308839
Im not a /pol/fag as Christ commanded us to make disciples of all nations.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:43:39 2021 No.18308856 >>18308839 Tbf the thread started with a shitpost so you shouldn't expect anything of value out of it.

Anonymous Mon May 24 08:45:25 2021 No.18308864

>>18308798
>It's incoherent and often nonsensical
filtered
>Christ's sacrifice fulfilled the covenant of the OT
christians act like they don't care about the OT, they say that Jesus came to fulfill and not abolish the law but they don't follow the law, you eat pork. Why don't you get circumcised? Because Paul the INNOVATOR said so...

Anonymous Mon May 24 08:46:34 2021 No.18308870

A part from a hymn of the book of the death. Can anyone say this is less beautiful then the Quran, it sounds more beautiful to me.

>Isis embraceth thee in peace, and she driveth away the fiends from the mouth of thy paths. Thou turnest thy face upon Amentet, and thou makest the earth to shine as with refined copper. Those who have lain down (i.e., the dead) rise up to see thee, they breathe the air and they look upon thy face when the Disk riseth on its horizon; their hearts are at peace inasmuch as they behold thee, O thou who art Eternity and Everlastingness

Anonymous Mon May 24 08:46:35 2021 No.18308871

>>18308833
1. Bismi l-lāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm
In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

2. al ḥamdu lil-lāhi rab-bi l-‘ālamīn
2 All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the ‘Alamin

3. ar raḥmāni r-raḥīm
The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

4. Māliki yawmi d-dīn
The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)

iy-yāka na‘budu wa’iy-yāka nasta‘īn
5. You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).

ihdinā ṣ-ṣirāṭa l-mustaqīm
6. Guide us to the Straight Way

Ṣirāṭa l-lazīna ’an‘amta ‘alayhim, ghayri l-maghḍūbi ‘alayhim wala ḍ-ḍāl-līn
7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger, nor of those who went astray.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:47:05 2021 No.18308872 >>18308856 The second post started a good discussion but then the muh rapist warlord and christcuck muslim apologist took note of this thread.

Anonymous Mon May 24 08:49:10 2021 No.18308879
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>>18308839
I dont even believe in God, i just think it's stupid when Muslims claim that the Gospel is in accordance with the Quran, or that there was some original radically different Gospel that was in accordance with the Quran.
Even contemporary secular historians dont believe that the original Gospels were corrupted or that the original Christians didnt believe in the Divinity of Christ. It's not just found in John, it's found in all the synoptic gosples and probably Q as well. It requires schizo-tier conspiracy thinking to think otherwise.
The literary value of the

Anonymous Mon May 24 08:49:20 2021 No.18308880

>>18308871
>Homage to thee, O creator of the gods, thou King of the North and of the South, O Osiris, victorious one, ruler of the world in thy gracious seasons; thou art the lord of the celestial world. Oh, grant thou unto me a path whereon I may pass in peace, for I am just and true; I have not spoken lies wittingly, nor have I done aught with deceit

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:50:33 2021 No.18308889 >>18308864 Read the NT and what was revealed to Peter following Cornelius' conversion. Also read up on the difference between disciplinary law of the covenant (which was fulfilled) and moral law (which is eternal).

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:51:33 2021 No.18308893 File: 60 KB, 1280x720, maxresdefault.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>18308880 Not the same metaphysics, but very nice.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:51:37 2021 No.18308894 >>18308879 The jews got him. RIP

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:52:53 2021 No.18308897 >>18308889 >Read the NT I did that’s why I’m a muslim lol

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:53:57 2021 No.18308904 >>18308897 Then you already know why the law of the covenant was fulfilled according to prophecy, and this question is pointless.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:55:02 2021 No.18308909 >>18308904 the joke your head

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:56:00 2021 No.18308913 >>18308909 The fate of your eternal soul is not a laughing matter.

Anonymous Mon May 24 08:56:33 2021 No.18308917

>>18308893
The point I am trying to make is that the person who translated it, clearly was not a good poety, just an academic trying to make some old dusty archeological text accesible. Now Egyptian, Hebrew and Arabic are all related languages.

So why can an old Egyptian hymn be translated and it is still beautiful, but not the Quran, with its billion followers and plenty of money?

I mean when I read this I just see strenght, nobility, honor, respect, vivid imagery, a deep and complex mythology, it still works after thousands of years. But the Quran....

>“Hail, Thoth, who didst make Osiris to triumph over his enemies, make thou Mut-hetep, victorious, to triumph over her enemies in the presence of the great divine sovereign chiefs who live with Osiris, the lord of life. The great god who dwelleth in his Disk cometh forth, that is, Horus the avenger of his father Unnefer-Ra. Osiris setteth, and the Khus who are in the Tuat (underworld) say: Homage to thee, O thou who comest as Tem, and who comest into being as the creator of the gods. Homage to thee, O thou who comest as the holy Soul of souls, who dwellest in the horizon. Homage to thee who art more glorious than [all] the gods and who illuminest the Tuat with thine Eye. Homage to thee who sailest in thy glory and who goest round about it in thy Disk.”

Anonymous Mon May 24 08:58:02 2021 No.18308922

>>18308879
>contemporary secular historians don't believe the original gospels were corrupted
new testament textual critics are in consensus that there were changes made to the synoptic gospels. Also, there were original christians who were apart of heretical groups that were fighting other sects (which influenced the scribes into manipulating the texts to support their agendas) until Constantine supported Orthodoxy.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:58:04 2021 No.18308923 >>18308913 I believe in Allah I’ll be fine :^)

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:59:00 2021 No.18308927 >>18308923 why are you responding in my name lol

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 08:59:59 2021 No.18308930 >>18308904 according to prophecy made in books we don't have anymore. like seriously dont you know that the earliest complete opy of the Pentateuch that we have is from 1000 ce?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:00:17 2021 No.18308932 >>18308922 Lets say there where changes to the New Testament, why no read the New Testament with criticism explaining the changes, instaid of inventing a whole new disjointed text and calling it the Quran?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:00:37 2021 No.18308935 >>18308927 That’s what brothers do

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:00:50 2021 No.18308937

>>18308922
The changes are usually minor textual differences; not rewriting the very essence of the text. The codex vaticanus and sinaiticus do not have any major theological differences.
The existence of heresies also doesn't prove that the text originally had any other meaning, as the Bible also spawned gnostic heresies, even though the texts openly condemn gnostic tenets.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:01:55 2021 No.18308941 >>18308923 >I turst my soul on a false prophet who is already in Hell You will stand before his tribunal with no one to vouch for you.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:01:59 2021 No.18308942 >>18308932 Because the Quran was revealed by God, maybe ask him.

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:02:26 2021 No.18308945

>>18308879
>Even contemporary secular historians dont believe that the original Gospels were corrupted or that the original Christians didnt believe in the Divinity of Christ.
Anon... the "original Christians" differed widely in what they believe Jesus preached.
I know it's a cliché to mention Bart Ehrman but he's the most prominent secular historian who believes the Gospels have been corrupted and the divinity of Christ was a man-made invention.

>>	Sufism Mon May 24 09:02:36 2021 No.18308946 >>18308917 Lol, because its not the same thing. The themes in the Quran are meant to covey a message. To make it more dazzling than it is for the sake of style is the poison the well.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:03:07 2021 No.18308949 >>18308941 >preach monotheism >false prophet Pick one you seething bible thumping retard

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:04:00 2021 No.18308952

>>18308942
>Because the Quran was revealed by God, maybe ask him.
It obviously was not revealed by God, because its not great art nor poetry.... and if it cant be translated then this proves its not great art nor poetry, because the psalms and egyptian books of the death can be translated and they keep some of their beauty.

I honestly cant see how you could arque around it. A work revealed by God, would have to be great art.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:05:15 2021 No.18308960 >>18308879 >>18308945 Maybe the "divinity of Christ" is also related to bad interpretation.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:05:26 2021 No.18308961 >>18308949 >Claims that a man (who is by nature not perfect) is infallible, which is something no prophet before has claimed >Not a polytheist Muslims revere Muhammad more than pagans revere their false idols.

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:05:29 2021 No.18308962
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For all those in this thread who are obsessed with bashing the aesthetic of the Quran, are you really going to tell Allah on the day of judgment that you didn't become Muslim because the guidebook He sent to save your soul was "boring"?

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:05:38 2021 No.18308964

>>18308946
>Lol, because its not the same thing. The themes in the Quran are meant to covey a message. To make it more dazzling than it is for the sake of style is the poison the well.
How do you convey a message, when the message is not beautiful? Does not inspire?

Either you are religious, you wish to taste God, or you are some soulless lawyer, which islam basically is.

Again, muslims cant really arque this.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:06:05 2021 No.18308966 >>18308952 Why is a christshit cocksucking Egyptian pagan fairy tales?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:06:33 2021 No.18308969 >>18308960 Considering it was already noted by Jewish and Roman scholars of the time, probably not.

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:07:17 2021 No.18308971

>>18308962
>For all those in this thread who are obsessed with bashing the aesthetic of the Quran, are you really going to tell Allah on the day of judgment that you didn't become Muslim because the guidebook He sent to save your soul was "boring"?
Yes, is God boring? WTF?

What kind of world do you life in where you think the creator is somehow boring? God would be life wouldnt he?

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:08:18 2021 No.18308976

>>18308966
>Why is a christshit cocksucking Egyptian pagan fairy tales?
Let me walk you though this... slowly.... but large parts of Europe's population are not longer Christian.

Now, if the psalms and the books of the death are more beautiful then the quran, then it makes them more true. period.

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:08:23 2021 No.18308978

>>18308962
>Day of Judgment
>Go to Heaven for accepting God's only begotten son
>Ask Jesus how anyone could be tempted by such an obviously man-made mess of a text
>God replies that the pride and greed in the hearts of the wicked will cause them to accept any texts, even when those texts are anathema (as he has revealed)

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:09:23 2021 No.18308982 >>18308964 >How do you convey a message, when the message is not beautiful? Does not inspire? Who the fuck are you to judge this lmao. Muslims along the centuries who had more knowledge than you considered the Quran to be a beautiful work.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:10:15 2021 No.18308984 >>18308982 That proves Muslims are tasteless cultists, not that the Quran is a great text. Cause it isnt.

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:10:34 2021 No.18308987

>>18308976
Atheism is a christcuck heresy. European whites got redpilled on the stupidity of the bible

>Now, if the psalms and the books of the death are more beautiful then the quran, then it makes them more true. period.
Most sōyboy shit I’ve read this year.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:11:54 2021 No.18308991 >>18308978 Why does god need a son?

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:12:29 2021 No.18308994

>>18308982
>Who the fuck are you to judge this lmao. Muslims along the centuries who had more knowledge than you considered the Quran to be a beautiful work.
I am a White man.

Besides that, if I read broadly, works from different traditions and muslim only read the quran, obiously I am more qualified to make a judgement.

The Quran is bad literature, thus a lie. I would more honestly claim some novelist is inspired by God then the Quran.

Also I am White man.

Sufism Mon May 24 09:12:38 2021 No.18308995

>>18308964
In arabic its beautiful, in english also, but less so.

You can be inspired by the translation, i personally have. Its the message that's important, and the metaphysical and existential themes and realizations that one comes to when reading it.

The book is literally talking to you, it has a distinct style and the issue is that you want it to be more beautiful to inspire you, when the fact is, that its only through the process of reason and contemplation.

We can wish it was more compelling, but its not for a book to convince us, it says if you contemplate enough, you will come to spiritual realization. Thats just what i think.

>>18308982
Dont be so rude bro.

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:12:43 2021 No.18308998

>>18308971
The Quran is not boring. Muslims read it for hours without getting bored. The companions used to faint while reading it because the word of their Lord spoke to them; and it obviously does not speak to you because you have a disease in your heart that causes you to place romance and vapid aestheticism over the practical world. Despite what you say, the Quran has endless divine insights within it and the reason why you are failing to recognize it is because you are influenced by the zeitgeist.

https://youtu.be/di8WbE2WSo0

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:13:32 2021 No.18309002

>>18308945
Ehrman is in vogue because reddit atheists can point to him and say "lol, heckin christianity is a lie, christ probably didnt exist!". He's like Stephen Jay Gould in that sense, in that he just disregards any scholarship that contradicts him. Though sometimes he slips up, as in "The Triumph of Christianity", wherein he tacitly admits that it's unlikely that Paul innovated anything besides converting gentiles and that the early Christians most certainly believed in Christ's divinity.

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:14:14 2021 No.18309003

>>18308987
>Atheism is a christcuck heresy. European whites got redpilled on the stupidity of the bible
Islam is atheism, it neither worships beauty nor reason.

>Most sōyboy shit I’ve read this year.
In other words its the exact opposite, I am doing the opposite of a onions boy and demanding a religious text is beautiful and some merit.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:14:38 2021 No.18309004 >>18308991 Why can't God have a son? Is He not omnipotent? Can He not cast His essence in a human form, as He once breathed life into Adam?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:15:15 2021 No.18309008 >>18309002 If Christ is divine why did he die? >b-but he was revived Yes and? So will be everyone else on judgement day

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:16:22 2021 No.18309013 >>18309003 >Islam is atheism Absolute full retard >>18309004 Not an answer, idiot

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:16:30 2021 No.18309014

>>18308995
>In arabic its beautiful, in english also, but less so.
If we can translate the Psalms and the Book of the Death and they are still beautiful and we cant do that with the Quran, then there is nothing to translate.

>Its the message that's important,
If that where true, you would read political texts. You dont.

>We can wish it was more compelling, but its not for a book to convince us
Bizar logic, it is the job of a Holy Text to bring us to contemplate the higher through its beauty, if a text is not beautiful, it is not religious.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:17:25 2021 No.18309019 >>18309003 >it neither worships beauty nor reason. Allah being the Lord of the Worlds and therefore has domain over beauty and reason. Muslim worshipping Allah therefore by extent worships beauty and reason.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:17:38 2021 No.18309020 >>18309014 Drink some sōylent and relax.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:17:43 2021 No.18309021 >>18309008 He died so that the covenant was fulfilled, so that the sin of Adam could be forgiven, and that those who died before Jesus could also be given his teaching in the harrowing of hell.

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:18:32 2021 No.18309027

>>18308998
>The Quran is not boring. Muslims read it for hours without getting bored.
The majority of Muslims can not even read, so this is literally a lie.

I also dont see how doing a mindnumbing thing for hours is even positive? I dont read poetry for hours, I feel inspired read some if, comtemplate it and then put it away.

Again, Islam turns religion in a death and grueling task.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:18:58 2021 No.18309028 >>18309021 Again, not an answer

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:19:07 2021 No.18309031

>>18309004
Christians don't really understand how lowly a human being is compared to God. No wonder! Endless centuries of pagan tribes combining the human and the divine what with the Egyptians Pharaoh and the human-like idols of desert tribes makes it no wonder why Christians created the doctrine of hypostatic union.

Let me ask you something. If I said you are going to be turned into a pile of shit tomorrow, you'd be embarrassed and insulted and would lash out at me for daring to put you in comparison with shit. How do you think Allah feels when you say He turned into a human being?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:19:41 2021 No.18309032 >>18309027 >Again, Islam turns religion in a death and grueling task. >>>/r/exmuslim is that away

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:19:54 2021 No.18309035

>>18309013
>Absolute full retard
Are there philosophical texts in the Quran and hadith? No. Is it beautiful poetry? No. alright muslims are atheists using words they do not understand.

>>18309019
>Muslim worshipping Allah therefore by extent worships beauty and reason.
So muslim worship Dante?

>>18309020
>Drink some sōylent and relax.
Yes, Islam as opium (onions) for the masses.

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:19:56 2021 No.18309036

>>18309003
> demanding a religious text is beautiful and some merit.
People dont demand it, but Muslims cant shut up about the "noble Quran", the most beautiful Quran, a work of which there can never be anything like it, only to end up with a text that is barely sub-par and has been surpassed by quite a few human authors, both before and after it.
Buddhist texts, for example, are excruciatingly boring. But no one really cares about it, because Buddhists dont go on and on about how beautiful the Suttas are. They arent, and they know it.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:20:56 2021 No.18309041 >>18309032 >is that away I am a White man. Again, why would repeating the same text over and over without understanding it make you more religious?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:21:04 2021 No.18309042 >>18309028 Yes it is an answer. Muslims dont accept it because their pride blinds them from the sin in which they are born. They wont believe they need salvation until they stand before the gates of Hell, and itll be too late.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:21:08 2021 No.18309043 >>18309027 >majority of muslims cannot even read wow i was talking to a troll this entire time

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:21:38 2021 No.18309047

>>18309014
>If we can translate the Psalms and the Book of the Death and they are still beautiful and we cant do that with the Quran, then there is nothing to translate.
What point are you trying to make? Your convinced its not beautiful? Ok well your entitled to you opinion.

>If that where true, you would read political texts. You don't.
Why would i read political texts? i want moral guidance and a reminder of whats truly important.

>Bizar logic, it is the job of a Holy Text to bring us to contemplate the higher through its beauty, if a text is not beautiful, it is not religious.
Yeah, and your basically saying, its not good enough for me. I'm beginning to doubt you actually read the thing cover to cover.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:21:41 2021 No.18309048 >>18309036 Why does the noble Quran make you seethe so hard? >>18309035 Philosophy is useless wordplay >I think therefore I am Alright, and? Not even trolling btw

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:23:14 2021 No.18309055

>>18309031
>God made man in His own image
>Muslim compares humans to shit
>Muslim thereby compares God's image to that of shit
Besides that, you also deny God's omnipotence, because you are implying that God cannot cast his essence in a human body. Your analogy harbours two insults to God, either of which would be a mortal sin on its own.

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:23:16 2021 No.18309056

>>18309036
Still, people dislike buddhists too, that said, some buddhists texts do have merit, I have to look up which one, but I did find beautiful and deep statements as well as good poetry in some of their works.

Muslims has to invent sufi literature to make up for the shortcomings of the quran and hadith, thats just sad.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:24:31 2021 No.18309061 >>18309043 >wow i was talking to a troll this entire time This is a fact, most muslims are illiterate.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:24:59 2021 No.18309063 This is an Islamic board now.

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:25:28 2021 No.18309069

>>18309056
>Muslims has to invent sufi literature to make up for the shortcomings of the quran and hadith, thats just sad.
Sufi literature is a natural expression of the beauty of Quran, you ignoramus. The source is the Quran, and it nourished some of the greatest works of poetry in existence, you philistine

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:25:43 2021 No.18309072 >>18309048 Why does it make you seethe so hard to realize the Quran is just a sub par text? Does it make you seethe knowing that Homer already surpassed it a millennium before?

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:26:15 2021 No.18309074

>>18309047
>What point are you trying to make? Your convinced its not beautiful? Ok well your entitled to you opinion.
Its an opinion, then you are an enemy of Islam, because Muslims see it as a fact.

>Why would i read political texts? i want moral guidance and a reminder of whats truly important.
Again, if you did you would read political texts....

>>18309047
>Yeah, and your basically saying, its not good enough for me. I'm beginning to doubt you actually read the thing cover to cover.
Why would it be any other way? I mean, why would I lover myself.

Also, you are not a muslim but a leftist.

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:27:41 2021 No.18309082

>>18309048
>Philosophy is useless wordplay
Nice, the Quran somehow isnt even though it doesnt make sense.

>>18309069
>The source is the Quran, and it nourished some of the greatest works of poetry in existence, you philistine
If sufi poetry is better then the Quran then the quran should be abandoned. period. If it is not, it should be ignored.

Cant arque yourself out of this.

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:28:50 2021 No.18309088

>>18309056
>Muslims has to invent sufi literature to make up for the shortcomings of the quran and hadith, thats just sad.
Ibn Arabi and all sufis claimed that their teachings are already in the Quran, is not their fault that you can't get beyond the letter. Do you think that your judgement of their work is better than theirs?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:29:15 2021 No.18309093 File: 46 KB, 492x492, 1537300084713.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Whats the historical consensus on the historicity of Muhammad?

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:29:45 2021 No.18309096

>>18309074
>Its an opinion, then you are an enemy of Islam, because Muslims see it as a fact.
You are an enemy because you have a differing opinion? Bro honestly calm down this is silly.

>Again, if you did you would read political texts....
Not going to argue this.

>Why would it be any other way? I mean, why would I lower myself.
Lower yourself? So you haven't read it and your claiming it lacks beauty. Dude, i don't know what to say to you.

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:30:12 2021 No.18309097

>>18309082
>If sufi poetry is better then the Quran then the quran should be abandoned. period. If it is not, it should be ignored.
>Cant arque yourself out of this.
I can and I will. If the greatest poets in history read the Quran and say wow that is beautiful here are my poems which reflect it's beauty, how is this not a proof of it's beauty? In fact, it even goes beyond and above it since these poems are only an approximation of it's beauty and are therefore not the real thing.

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:30:39 2021 No.18309100

>>18309088
>Ibn Arabi and all sufis claimed that their teachings are already in the Quran, is not their fault that you can't get beyond the letter. Do you think that your judgement of their work is better than theirs?
They are deluded, simple as.

Either their works are better then the Quran and the Quran should be ignored, or they are worse then the Quran and their poetry should be ignored.

This also applies to Christianity, Augustine is better then the Bible. For example

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:31:26 2021 No.18309105

>>18309055
>>18309055
>God made man in His own image
you've misinterpreted this (probably deliberately). You are obviously aware of the difference between human beings and shit, but you fail to realize the difference between human beings and God because you have combined the two in your pagan creed, so you don't give God the same respect you give yourselves. Also, I didn't say He can't do it, but He does not go against what befits His Godhead, which is the reason why He won't lie or die.

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:31:53 2021 No.18309108

>>18309096
>You are an enemy because you have a differing opinion? Bro honestly calm down this is silly.
Yes, mate, thats what Muslims belief, proving you are a leftist and not a muslim.

>>18309096
>Not going to argue this.
No, because it is true.

>>18309096
>So you haven't read it and your claiming it lacks beauty
Making up facts about someone you dont know, yeah you are a leftist, leftist always just make up things then start believing in it.

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:32:30 2021 No.18309109

>>18309100
>This also applies to Christianity, Augustine is better then the Bible.
Showcases your ignorance. The Bible is the source of and the standard of beauty against which every artform in the West is measured against. If you read literature and think Moby Dick is beautiful, then you've already gotten a taste of the beauty of the Bible. Same goes with the Quran and the Islamic world.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:32:54 2021 No.18309113 >>18309097 >how is this not a proof of it's beauty? sigh, because it obiously wasnt the quran the inspired them, but their Persian heritage, good genes, and God himself.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:33:33 2021 No.18309114 >>18309113 >because it obiously wasnt the quran the inspired them but God >The Quran is the word of god

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:34:27 2021 No.18309117

>>18309109
>The Bible is the source of and the standard of beauty against which every artform in the West is measured against.

Its not though, even during the dark ages, the inspiration for a lot of poetry would be the local traditions, some of which survive in the poetic edda, equally from very early on a lot greek and latin works where already translated.....

Again, completely uneducated....

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:35:20 2021 No.18309122 >>18309117 There's really no arguing with a pagan.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:35:28 2021 No.18309123 >>18309114 >The Quran is the word of god No, because its not beautiful....

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:36:22 2021 No.18309131 >>18309123 I am God and I say it's beautiful.

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:37:05 2021 No.18309135

>>18309100
All Sufi Esotercism is derived from from the Quran, this is irrefutable. There may have been other influences, but Islam is perennial by nature.

Also, every thing productive of another is always more excellent than the nature of the thing produced.

>>18309108
Leftist? Lol. Good one bro, iI thought you were joking.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:37:53 2021 No.18309139 >>18309122 >There's really no arguing with a pagan. No such thing as a pagan, fantasy world that doesnt mean anything, You are an atheist.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:38:57 2021 No.18309145 >>18309131 >I am God and I say it's beautiful. wow, just reached the core of islam. the worship of the self.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:40:09 2021 No.18309154 >>18309145 Man was made in the image of God. If you worship God, you are worshipping the self.

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:40:19 2021 No.18309155

>>18309105
This is just arbitrarily deciding what does and does not befit God's Godhood, which ultimatley boils down to a limited and very human perception of what God ought and ought not do. One could just as easily ask why God would feel the need to communicate with people in a lowly human language to begin with to inform them of a flawed approximation of His will.

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:40:29 2021 No.18309156

>>18309135
>All Sufi Esotercism is derived from from the Quran, this is irrefutable. There may have been other influences, but Islam is perennial by nature.
Just like Christian mysticism has more to do with Plato or vague Eddaic ways of thinking that survived in the German language, Sufism has more to do with a variety of Gnostic, Zoroastrian and what not traditions that survived in the region.

>>18309135
>perennial
Yup leftist

>>18309135
>Also, every thing productive of another is always more excellent than the nature of the thing produced.
gibberish.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:41:44 2021 No.18309166 >>18309093 A muhammad like figure existed, but what he really thought cannot be discerned, as even the most reliable hadith cant be trusted, and many have been edited or fabricated later on.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:42:00 2021 No.18309171 >>18309154 >Man was made in the image of God. If you worship God, you are worshipping the self. Great to know, lets all become muslim worship the self and smoke hashish.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:42:14 2021 No.18309173 >>18309156 >Sufism has more to do with a variety of Gnostic, Zoroastrian and what not traditions that survived in the region. How can one be this deluded? Sufism is the expression of Islam, there's no argument you can build your worldview upon.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:43:07 2021 No.18309178 >>18309156 >gibberish. That was a proposition from proclus elements. I got nothing else to say to you, Peace.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:43:08 2021 No.18309179 File: 111 KB, 1200x1200, 1575467272985.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] None of you have convinced me to believe in God, and i have only grown to despise you more after this thread.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:43:18 2021 No.18309181 File: 131 KB, 1242x1394, EmadQlXWMAY044y.jpg_large.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>18309171 >Great to know, lets all become muslim worship the self and smoke hashish.

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:44:23 2021 No.18309187

>>18309173
>How can one be this deluded? Sufism is the expression of Islam, there's no argument you can build your worldview upon.
Its not, again, you have some kind of impression that Islam entered on some cultural wasteland, when it was the other way around, Persian cultured entered the cultural wasteland that was the Islamic religion.

Same thing happened to Christianity.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:45:34 2021 No.18309193 >>18309179 No one here wants you to let alone is trying, If you were of good character, the story might be different. We are here to discuss literature not convert people.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:45:52 2021 No.18309195 >>18309178 >That was a proposition from proclus elements. Yes, because I must respect him and think him to be true somehow. I dont. I am not a neoplatonist. Also, again, if you value Proclus, why are you a muslim.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:46:11 2021 No.18309199 >>18309187 >Same thing happened to Christianity. Does this somehow undermine the Christian inspired artwork for the past two thousand years?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:47:35 2021 No.18309205 >>18309195 >Also, again, if you value Proclus, why are you a muslim. >Muslims are uneducated and can't read >Finds a Muslim that reads philosophy >Why are you reading it as a Muslim Jesus Christ, lit.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:47:58 2021 No.18309207 >>18309199 >Does this somehow undermine the Christian inspired artwork for the past two thousand years? No, but it could mean that artwork is more relevant and more beautiful then the Bible itself.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:48:18 2021 No.18309210 >>18309082 Why do you consistently misspell “argue”

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:48:24 2021 No.18309213 >>18309100 From your conclusion it is obvious to me that you are one of those agnostic type of people who are obsessed with reading about religions but aren't religious.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:48:37 2021 No.18309214 >>18309207 >No, but it could mean that artwork is more relevant and more beautiful then the Bible itself. Is Harry Potter more beautiful than Lord of The Rings?

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:50:15 2021 No.18309221

>>18309205
Seriously, awnser me this question, you are a Muslim and Proclus is not, why value this mans work at all?

Quran is literally the word of God and Proclus is just some confused pagan. Why read him?

Where you the one using the term perenial, because that has fuck all to do with islam.

Again, leftist pretending to be muslims pretending to be occultists.

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:51:58 2021 No.18309229

>>18309210
>Why do you consistently misspell “argue”
Not native english speaker.

>>18309213
>From your conclusion it is obvious to me that you are one of those agnostic type of people who are obsessed with reading about religions but aren't religious.
I rarely read about religion, I mostly read novels, poetry and such sort of stuff, which I see as being more inspired then a lot of "holy texts"

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:52:59 2021 No.18309237 >>18309214 >Is Harry Potter more beautiful than Lord of The Rings? No, because neither of them are beautiful, they are both shit.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:53:45 2021 No.18309240 what a horrible thread

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:54:30 2021 No.18309243 >>18309240 Seconded

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:55:08 2021 No.18309244 >>18309221 There are many corresponding metaphysical themes present in Proclus elements, that are consistent with the themes present in the Quran. You haven't read either so I wouldn't expect you to get it, dont reply to me again.

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:55:22 2021 No.18309247

>>18309229
>I mostly read novels, poetry and such sort of stuff, which I see as being more inspired then a lot of "holy texts"
Any good poetry or literature is inspired by a divine feeling, the capacity for which is cultivated through religious education. You are a completely confused mongrel.

Anonymous Mon May 24 09:56:22 2021 No.18309252

>>18309244
>There are many corresponding metaphysical themes present in Proclus elements, that are consistent with the themes present in the Quran.
Right, what does this have to with being a proper muslim.

Either Islam is true, or it is not.

Again, just a leftist pretending to be a muslim, pretending to be an occultist.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:57:25 2021 No.18309260 >>18309247 >the capacity for which is cultivated through religious education. Really, then please explain why many of the great poetry of ancient greece was inspired by shepards living in the wilderness, who the muses got hold off.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 09:58:44 2021 No.18309267 >>18309260 >the greek works weren't divinely inspired Have you read anything in your entire life? Every page of every Greek work mentions some god at least once.

Anonymous Mon May 24 10:00:27 2021 No.18309278

>>18309267
>Have you read anything in your entire life? Every page of every Greek work mentions some god at least once.
Exactly, my point entirely, almost every greek work mentiones a god. Again, if some shepard from the wilds was inspired by the muses to suddenly make poetry, then the he was directly inspired, he would not have needed a religious education.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 10:01:43 2021 No.18309291 >>18309267 Greek “gods” are fake

Anonymous Mon May 24 10:02:47 2021 No.18309296

>>18309278
>Again, if some shepard from the wilds was inspired by the muses to suddenly make poetry, then the he was directly inspired, he would not have needed a religious education.
And somehow this is more believable and if you replace muses with Jahwe/Jesus/Allah you suddenly stop believing it's possible?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 10:06:04 2021 No.18309305 >>18307717 literally how i got halfway through cows before i realized the author had all the intellectual capacity of a fucking child

Anonymous Mon May 24 10:07:23 2021 No.18309313

>>18309305
>i got halfway through cows before i realized the author had all the intellectual capacity of a fucking child
If you haven't been raised in a Muslim culture don't read the Quran front to back, instead read it back to front, or in arabic that would be not back to front, but front to back.

Anonymous Mon May 24 10:08:06 2021 No.18309316

>>18309296
>And somehow this is more believable and if you replace muses with Jahwe/Jesus/Allah you suddenly stop believing it's possible?
You are just pretending I belief certain things now. I gotta give credit to muslims, they usually dont try to put arguments in there I never made.

I never made the claim that I was an atheist.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 10:13:00 2021 No.18309342 >>18309313 A book so shitty the later chapters have to abrogate earlier ones.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 10:20:55 2021 No.18309374 >>18309342 Nope, the latter chapters were revealed first, and the earlier chapters were revealed later. Those that were compiling made the choice to switch it

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 10:21:28 2021 No.18309378 >>18309260 Are you fucking stupid?

Anonymous Mon May 24 11:30:31 2021 No.18309739

>>18308798
Koran was originally a bastardized translation of an Aramaic Nestorian text into Arabic.
For example, in Aramaic, "virgins in heaven" translates into "grapes on a vine", which makes more thematic sense.
It's possible that Muhammad didn't even exist, and the Rashidun just did a quick, botched translation job to create a fictional character in order to unite warring, disparate Arab tribes.
Islam was invented and propagated purely for imperial and geopolitical purposes.
Christianity is better because Jesus was initially a celestial spirit meant to guide people to gnosis. It originated for more complex reasons, but I think Jesus was "euhemerized" for a number of reasons. I do not believe in a historical Jesus either.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 11:34:25 2021 No.18309753 >>18309739 Also, Buddha didn't exist either. He was a tree shrine god initially.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 24 11:36:40 2021 No.18309764 >>18307905 Is it truly beautiful, or is it just considered beautiful and imitated because of its status?

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/lit/ - Literature