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/lit/ - Literature


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18587267 No.18587267 [Reply] [Original]

Have they contributed anything to world literature?

For countries that were relevant pretty ever since the middle ages they have produced very little relevant literature or philosophy, despite being extremely prolific in other areas as art. How come?

>> No.18587277

>>18587267
Theyre greedy fucks, and while you can sell art, you cant sell philosophy

>> No.18587288

>>18587277
But why? Is their culture really that different?
Aren't they just Germans with a slightly retarded accent?

>> No.18587300
File: 160 KB, 500x498, 9789056478605_front.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18587300

bitch please

>> No.18587305
File: 206 KB, 1080x1080, Yungdari.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18587305

>>18587288
I dunno man, sometimes culture just manifests differently. Not everything in terms of culture has to follow exact and explicable laws.

>> No.18587311

>>18587267
Erasmus
Hugo Grotius and freedom of the seas
Spinoza
Amsterdam was the printing capital of the world and pretty much the only reason plenty of enlightenment era philosophers could spread their works
There were some decent writers in the 19th century
A few very important historians like Pirenne and Huizinga
Those are the humanists and humanism related Benelux things I know of the top of my head

>> No.18587352

>>18587311
I know they have some humanists and other important rennaissance figures like Mercator and Vesalius if I'm not mistaken.
But they're all not mainly writers. Real literature is lacking in these parts despite them having the proper circumstances for writers to develop.

>> No.18587362

>>18587352
I'm Dutch and we have some good post-war writers, but all the books are about world war II and sex

>> No.18587378

>>18587352
Mercator and Vesalius yeah.
But I agree, I can't point to any major Benelux writer.
And it's not like they don't have artistic talent. Both painting (don't need to name names) and music (Beethoven was from the Benelux) they have some major names.
One thing that could be the problem that starting in the late 17th century, the language of the elite of the southern Benelux (essentially Belgium) was French. Even under austrian rule.

I don't know why dutch doesn't have any major authors honestly.

>> No.18587404

>>18587362
So you don't have good post-war writers.

>> No.18587427

>>18587378
> Both painting (don't need to name names)
Really? I always thought they were completely outclassed by the Italians and French

>> No.18587431

>>18587267
We do have major authors, Vondel, Hooft, Bilderdijk are classical authors, the problem is..... these authors are essentially old fashioned and baroque poets, writing in a provincial language.

>> No.18587454

>>18587288
Not all germans are the same. There is a pretty big difference between say prussians and bavarians. While certain germans (mainly prussians) contributed a lot to philosophy, others didn't.

>> No.18587461

>>18587311
>Spinoza
Portuguese jew

>> No.18587464
File: 111 KB, 1200x1200, 1575467272985.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18587464

Ever tried writing something in Dutch without laughing your ass off? Well now you know why they stuck to painting

>> No.18587469

>>18587461
He's not really a Jew since he got kicked out and he's not really Portuguese either. But he's also not Dutch.
He stands alone like an island.

>> No.18587594

>>18587267
Flemish was suppressed for a long time, so there isn't a long tradition of Flemish writing.

>> No.18587631

>>18587427
Italians perhaps, French? Not by a long shot.

>> No.18587639

Sigebert de Gembloux
Egbert de Liège
Jean Le Bel
Jean d'Outremeuse
Alulphe de Tournai
Georges Chastelain
Godefroi de Leigni
Belgium really peaked in the Middle Ages and in the Renaissance, nothing interesting after that.

>> No.18587643

>>18587639
Also, Belgian Renaissance music and paintings are peak kino.

>> No.18587710

>>18587427
Flemish primitives are the only serious rivals of Italian Renaissance painting, and while the Italians don't really have much beyond that, the Benelux has the dutch golden age of painting and other baroque masters.
Afterwards you've got names like Ensor, Rops, Magritte, van de Velde and van Gogh. If you count comics as visual arts then the entire ligne claire style that Hergé popularised with Tintin.

>> No.18587731

>>18587594
Makes sense

>> No.18587753

I don't know much about Dutch authors although I'm sure they have some that are great too..
But I'm Belgian and honestly we have a few authors from the 20th century that I think should be way more well known, yet aren't.

Willem Elsschot and Maurice Maeterlinck (I mean he won the nobel prize for literature) are genuinely great writers.
Some will say Hugo Claus as well but I'm not a big fan

>> No.18588024

>>18587267
some say there are literary civilizations (like the french) and pictural civilizations (like Belgian or German)... cultures expressing themselves with words, and others with pictures.
I guess Benelux is more pictural.

>> No.18588048

>>18588024
It's a nice poetic idea, if nothing else.

>> No.18588878

>>18587267
Stop calling it Benelux, the only relevant country was Netherlands. Belgium is a fake country and Luxembourg was a tiny duchy.

>> No.18588889

>>18587288
yeah benelux culture is quite different from german culture, actually closer to british

>> No.18588903

>>18588878
very ignorant to say, you must be Dutch

>> No.18588967

>>18588878
Have you ever read history?
Flanders was infinitely more important for 500 years straight.
And when the Dutch finally took over, it was because of Flemish migration north. Amsterdam was OVER 60% ethnically Flemish at the time of their golden age. The city was literally run and built by Flemmings.

Cope.

>> No.18588989
File: 159 KB, 612x597, 56415651.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18588989

>>18587267

>> No.18589019

>>18588989
What article is this? It looks like some of those 1000 works are recipes. How many of the Dutch masterpieces are licorice recipes?

>> No.18589031

>>18587267


1. NOT BELGIUM, NOR NETHERLANDS, EXISTED IN THE MEDIEVAL ERA, AND LUXEMBOURG HAS NEVER BEEN IMPORTANT.

2. THE ONLY MOMENT IN HISTORY AT WHICH FLANDERS —WHICH COMPREHENDED PRESENT BENELUX— WAS ARTISTICALLY IMPORTANT WAS WHEN IT WAS A PROVINCE OF THE UNIVERSAL CHRISTIAN EMPIRE OF THE HISPANICAL MONARCHY; AFTER THEY SECEDED ONE BECAME A HERETICAL STATE RUN BY MERCHANTS, THE OTHER: A FRANCOGERMANIC LIMBO, AND ANOTHER A DOT.

>> No.18589056

>>18589031
When the Spanoids took over they mismanaged it so hard half of the population of flanders fled North, to Germany and to England.

>> No.18589061

>>18589056


OK, ANGLOID.

>> No.18589064

>>18588989
>the great canon of recipes

>> No.18589065

>>18588967
Flanders was just a Dutch province and belongs to the Netherlands. Belgium doesn't get to claim its history because it's a fake country.

>> No.18589099

>>18589065
>Dutch actually believe this

>> No.18589120

>>18589099
It's more concerning how people actually believe Belgium is a real country.

>> No.18589154
File: 344 KB, 600x859, 1632_Bello_Belgico_Strad%C3%A6.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18589154

ACTUALLY ITS CALLED LEO BELGICUS
THE NETHERLANDS OR THE NIGGERLANDS AS I LIKE TO CALL THEM IS A CLOACA GENTIUM INVENTED BY PROTESTANTS TO DESTABILIZE EUROPE
THEIR "HISTORY" CONSISTS OF GENOCIDING NATIVES TO OBTAIN THEIR NUTMEG AND IMPORTING FORMER COLONIAL SUBJECTS INTO EUROPE
LUXEMBOURG IS NOT A COUNTRY BUT A TAX EVASION CONSTRUCTION

>> No.18589168

>>18589120
nobody believes it is a wrong country. Which makes it even sadder for the Niggerlands to get mogged by only one portion of that non-country alone.

>>18589154
dangerously based

>> No.18589243

>>18589120
it really doesn't matter if Belgium is a country or not, you are talking about some modern bureaucratic state, we are talking about living and breathing people and a land that didn't change no matter the political regime.

>> No.18589253

>>18589154
ok but why are you shouting?

>> No.18589292

Charles De Coster (1827 – 1879) - La Légende et les Aventures héroïques, joyeuses et glorieuses d'Ulenspiegel et de Lamme Goedzak au pays de Flandres et ailleurs
It is written, however, in French. A great novel, but somehow forgotten in the Anglo world.
From Dutch literature I was going to read Multatuli - Max Havelaar. Not much is translated from Dutch, so it seems to me that their literature remains within the country.

>> No.18589297

Nescio is based but I'm not sure he is translatable. I like some books by Reve, but he is an acquired taste.

Max Havelaar by Multatuli is also good.

There are also good poets.

>> No.18589380

>>18589292
Translation is always a problem. Especially with authors that are not world famous, many translations also simply suck dick making it even harder for them to be recognised.
it is that way with authors of all languages besides English.

>> No.18589396

The Dutch and Belgians have definitely contributed a lot to literature but are, generally speaking, under the radar as a result of the massive influence that the surrounding countries have had and are having on world literature. Besides, nobody learns the language except for natives which makes it harder to have a well-received Dutch book than a well-received French, English or German book. I can speak and read in all four languages and at times I read a Dutch or Belgian writer whose work would have definitely been seen as an instant classic had it been written in one of the other languages. I realize that they have largely faded into obscurity. One of my favourite movements in literature is the "Tachtigers" (translates to eightiers which refers to a group of writes from the 1880's) and it quite honestly is a gold mine of exceptional Dutch literature.

>> No.18589423

>>18589396
What are your favorite Dutch-written novels?
I'm Flemish but honestly have not really taken the time to delve into low-countries literature. I mostly read in English as well.

I can read French but not well enough for difficult literature.

>> No.18589522

>>18589380
That's for sure.
Moreover, English is not my native language, so to read, say, a book written in Dutch and translated into English for me will lead to the loss of 60% of the meaning. (I think prose in a good translation loses at least 30% of its meaning, +30% because I have to translate already from English in my head).
After Coster, I read the textbook on "The History of the Netherlands", there were also sections on literature from Medieval to Modern, but in 98% they were "literally-who" and to find at least some translation into my native Russian is not realistic.
Although Joost van den Vondel has been translated (just found out). I have to look carefully.

>> No.18589563

>>18587267
Other than for some weird trade conglomerate, tacking on Luxembourg to make this Benelux makes no sense; the Dutch and the Flemish, okay, they can understand each other, coproduce something - but calling it Benelux? No Luxemburger will ever show up in it...

>> No.18589625

>>18589522
For sure. The only languages I feel like I'm good enough at to read in are Dutch and English. But I hate reading translations of French or Russian novels for example. You just know it's so much better in its original language.

>> No.18589664

>>18589423
Some of my favourites are
De Uitvreter, Titaantjes, Dichtertje by Nescio
De stille kracht by Couperus
Karakter by Bordewijk
Terug tot Ina Damman by Vestdijk
Pallieter by Timmermans


A lot of these novels are already considered classics within the Benelux but not so much outside

>> No.18589709

>>18589664
Thanks! Will read one of them once I'm done with Wuthering Heights

>> No.18589770

>>18589625
Do you think Dutch fell into the "small language trap"?
That is, look. There is, say, the Latvian language. To be honest, no one except the Latvians themselves needs it, young people know English (and German), old people know Russian (and German), so abroad they do not expect someone to understand their language. So if you manage to become a "great Latvian writer" - the world will not know about you, most likely.
But let's say the Scandinavians (also small languages) got the promotion of "Scandinavian literature", so they are actively translated and people know what it is.
Dutch is not that small, with about 26 million speakers in several countries. Nevertheless, there is a feeling that cultural trends do not reach us from that linguistic environment.
As far as I understand, in the Netherlands about 99% of the population speaks English. So what could be more profitable to write literature in English right away?

>> No.18590397

Dutch be like
>speaks the language of servants
>swampnigger
>DUDE WEED LMAO
>sex consists of farting under a blanket and trapping your partner inside
>obsessed with Gouda cheese and tulips
>is an uncharismatic lanklet, copes by going MUH HEIGHT MUTHAFUCKA
>eternally resentful towards Spanish BVLLS, still spreads lies about them despite Ibizachads offering him drugs every summer
>invents capitalism and the first mega corporation, suffers the first market crash because of his own fault
>greatest joy in life is condescendingly talking at length about how environmentally-friendly his cities are to unassuming tourists
>second greatest joy in life is making headlines around Christmas every year in anglophone media (pic related)
>loves cuckoldry so much he turned his capital into Western Europe’s brothel so British, American and German businessmen could enjoy his women more easily
Belgians be like
>eats fries with mayo, yuck
>act like complete savages in the Congo, all to enrich some guy
>indirectly causes the Rwandan genocide by fueling ethnic hatred, all based on a lie (Belgians told the Rwandans that Tutsis wuz KANGZ from Egypt and therefore superior to the local Hutus, which was complete bullshit that nonetheless caused Africa’s most infamous genocide)
>when they lost the colonies they simply brought the savagery back home with them, ran Gladio operations all over the place, including its own citizens
>filled with criminals protected by the law such the Brabant killers and Marc Dutroux, covers up for the satanic pedophile elites that rule the western word
>Man Bites Dog wasn’t a documentary about a serial killer, it was a documentary about the average Belgian
>headquarters NATO, one of the most evil organizations in history
>is so antisocial that he divides the country along linguistic, religious and political lines all so he doesn’t have to interact with people that don’t agree with him
>is a second-rate France
Luxembourg be like
>irrelevant city LARPing as a country

>> No.18590464

>>18587288
Dutch are basically north Germans yes. Very close to the Germans in Lower Soxony. Belgiums are a bit more closer to the French. Especially walloons. Some say we are closer to the English however but they are retarded. I feel culturally more a connection even with Norway and Sweden than with England. The only thing we have in common is the upper class arrogance but that had Germany as well untill after WW2

>> No.18590515

>>18589292
Multatuli really, quite honestly, is shit. Nescio is far better and I imagine there are decent translations of him.

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