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/lit/ - Literature

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[ERROR] No.18596093 [Reply] [Original]

Why did literature decline so much? Why are there so few great literary artists living? Is it because humans have lost ambition? Or is literature just a dying form of art in general?

>> No.18596238


All of those authors that JCO mentioned in the tweet came from places of relative privilege - the conditions that led them to create the works they did were pretty exceptional in terms of schooling, time to write, etc. which is why they could do what they did.

But people have always been creative, and I don't think that "genius" has necessarily gone away even though it doesn't manifest in literature as much these days. There's some really great stuff being created in TV, film, some videogames, and hell - even some TikTokers that have unique perspectives and now, the platform to express them.

I don't think that the spirit has gone away it's just evolved -- just in a way that makes it more consumable to the general public.

If you guys have any recent examples of great literature though, I'd love to read it. Most recent novel I've finished is "Negative Space" by BR Yeager.

>> No.18596471

Not even memeing. Asking this in sincerity. Can you give some examples of innovative and creative tiktoks that have that possible genius you mentioned?

>> No.18596477

Art usually follows, in my opinion, a cycle that's pretty easy to detect when you've consumed enough of it--and enough of it not just from your own time, but from a decent sampling of others before it--and you can tell what makes/made certain periods truly revolutionary breakthroughs for artistic thought and ideas and general culture, and what periods were more just long stretches of veneration for the sake of what some might call wholly narcissistic expression.

What makes a good artist, ironically, is a heavy dose of a narcissistic personality--someone who is interested, almost enamoured, with their own personality, thoughts, feelings, and so on, to such an extent that they believe these impulses to hold so much meaning that they channel them, consciously or not, into works of art--mixed with and tempered by a sense and respect of some objective or external reality or principle--natural law, God, other people's thoughts/feelings/emotions, and so on--that they must interface with at many, many points if they wish to not only present their work to people, but also to improve both their work, their craft, and their own abilities of creation and perception.

This is the balance that creates a good artist, if it is navigated properly--an individuated person who is capable of fashioning, maintaining, revising, and growing their own body of beliefs WHILE STILL acknowledging the importance and relevance of both exploring and at times leaving alone, but still respecting the things outside them they may never understand.

And with enough practice, it can be navigated, by almost anyone. No one, in my opinion or understanding, has ever navigated this route perfectly, and even the greatest artists have major failures and shortcomings in both their own professional and personal lives.


>> No.18596593

The issue we face in our contemporary period is a lack of proper guidance and feedback, despite all the productive channels, for young artists and creators with which they can actually use and metabolize as proper guidance away from the simple talent of natural disposition and towards a more refined sense of elevated ability.

This lack of guidance is apparent not only in the online sphere, but in schools, ideological/cultural establishments, the general social institutions of our day, and even the cultural etiquette and mannerisms that so guide interpersonal relationships between colleagues, friends, family, and even the self. There is a lot of information saturation, and many, in the face of it, understandably turn to modern mass art--simply and somewhat coldly, in my opinion, standardized as "content"--not as a means of navigating the self or the world, but rather as a means of deadening oneself to both.

And this goes double for young artists, who can be more sensitive, and therefore more negatively, or positively, rewarded by the current means with which the prevailing public systems of thought interact with their work. That means that if a certain kind of art is well-received, a young artist will gravitate towards that to first satisfy that narcissistic impulse. If the narcissistic impulse, however, is the only thing the constantly transient attention and appetite desire of the public demands, that is the only thing the artist will produce. Over time, such production decays an individual, as can be observed with countless cases of social/online personalities. But because they did not, are not, and may never receive any guidance from a trustworthy and honest higher authority who shares their interest on how to transverse the realm of the purely subjective/particular into the realm of the nearly objective/universal, these young artists will continue, through a fault of their own, and many that are not, to produce ephemeral and fleeting cultural products, content, that come nowhere close to possessing any staying power or potential of posterity and lingering effect.

This isn't a pity-call for every disillusioned young artist around the block, but it is a reminder that, despite the productive capacity of a culture arguably never being anything close to what we have now, the actual amount of quality contemporary work being put out, or at least in any way recognized by both high and low culture, is stupefyingly low, almost non-existent.

In an age of extreme personal curation, encouraged by public ethos and overarching third-party corporate and public interests, it is difficult to make good art. The few that can will, like many other ages, most likely go unnoticed, and anything that does break through the realms of both high and low culture, and has a chance of uniting the two, if even for a brief moment, runs the exponential risk of being completely absorbed and consumed by the dominant cultural apparatus of the day.

>> No.18596605

There is, in my opinion, no way to avoid this current paradigm, barring a mass-transformation in public consciousness and disposition, other than riding it out. In four hundred years, if we're lucky enough to be alive, and more than a few of us are lucky to be truly literate, there will be great works studied from this exact point in time, all over the world. That's how it's always happened, and it will be no different as far as I can see or guess, for us. All that can really be done, in my opinion, is for anyone who makes art to pursue it with honest intentions and a pure heart--corny, I know, but the longer and more you do it, the more you realize what it really can and maybe one day will mean--and make things that truly matter to them. Make things that take a unique perspective of the world and try, in some way, to communicate observations made on what some might call universal themes, situations, and people, as they come and go. That's really all you can do with a good book, is try to give someone the best--not always the cleanest, or goodest, or nicest, or darkest, but simply the most honest--memory you can give them.

>> No.18596612

People don't care about literature anymore. The people who would be "great writers" are doing other things

>> No.18596613

www tiktok com/@timgodbout

>> No.18596617


>> No.18596619

If the "There is no such thing as a coincidence" guy wrote a book I would read it. He sees beyond this world.

>> No.18596646

Public schools barely teach long form writing anymore.

>> No.18596687


>> No.18596730

Is JCO talking about my- I mean, Mike Ma's, new work "Gothic Violence"?

>> No.18596798

All the greats write genre fiction now

>> No.18596825

modernism, postmodernism and the mega novel are exhausted. all that's left is pretending to care about marginalized groups by reading a watered down, educated version of "their experience"

>> No.18596826

Doesn't everyone live in what they perceive to be an "age of decline"? Even Augustus thought Rome was degenerate and declining, when he was the one that brought it to its peak in power and influence. Everyone is always bitching about their present and imagined future.

>> No.18596840

>Doesn't everyone live in what they perceive to be an "age of decline"?
and they're all correct.

good posts anon.

>> No.18596850

[s4s] is the greatest work of literature ever

>> No.18596888

People spend less time reading, and they also spend less time writing. They also tend to read a book, set it aside, and then move on to the next. In prior eras, people would carefully study a narrow range of works throughout their lives, model their writing on them, and in that way improve their abilities.

>> No.18596930

>Even Augustus thought Rome was degenerate and declining
Because it was, before he and Caesar put an end to the endless civil wars that characterized the late Republic.

>> No.18596964

Thank you sir

>> No.18596980

Incredibly insightful and well-said, anon. The importance of a personal canon is undervalued nowadays in common thought. Kudos, sir.

>> No.18597067

Because writers aren't cool anymore. Writers used to be cool, they used to capture the imagination of the public.
People don't think writers are cool anymore. You think Harry Potter would have been even remotely as successful if the author wasn't the domestic abuse surviving single mother writing in a Scottish coffee shop?

>> No.18597106

Rowling lifted ideas from TH White and Neil Gaiman. The Casual Vacancy (2012) is Rowling at her best.

>> No.18597114

>Why did literature decline so much?
Because of Joyce Carol Oates' generation's rejection of ambition, substance, and imagination. Amazing that she cannot see that she and her ilk are the reason things are now this way.

>> No.18597121

It sounds like what you're describing is egotism rather than narcissism.

>> No.18597224

>Rome was degenerate and declining
And he was right
Rome peaked in the second Punic war

>> No.18597249

You all lied to me.

>> No.18597459

a) adhd-ism and shortened attention spans from social media, fast-reward-media like gaming, overly flashy hyperstimulation of cartoons and big-explosion hollyjew films, etc.
b) politicization of publishing and literature via blue hairs
c) infantilization of the modern mind (black and white morals of capeshit and cartoons, adults reading media meant for children, shallow and naive worldviews, lack of depth and substance, the general retarding of children leading to retarded adults
d) the nu-trend of eschewing classics in favor of modern nu-lit but new literature is underdeveloped and the neo-liberalist worldview likewise underdeveloped with only vague conceptions of what it so ardently radicalizes people over. so you throw out the old without having anything substantively matured to replace it with, and the result is shallow, half-assed ideology that doesn't say anything and doesn't mean anything, from which nothing can be derived

Pick the poison of modernity. Everything above crosses over to some degree. We live in a swamp of cognitive degradation.

>> No.18597535

>Oates, who is making her first-ever trip to Israel to receive the prestigious Jerusalem Prize, said that her Jewish grandmother
Kikes be like
>destroy western civilization
>why does high culture not exist anymore?"

>> No.18597553

The greatest interpreter and defender of classical Western thought is the Jew Leo Strauss. Get your mind out of the gutter.

>> No.18597593

You should have read the Tocqueville threads.

>> No.18597603

>Rowling lifted ideas from TH White and Neil Gaiman.
Do you mean, Sandman?

>> No.18597625

sweaty? american "culture" destroyed the foundation of western civilization

>> No.18597635

Rilke breathe out... please...

>> No.18597637

>affirmative action writer figures out she’s a shit diversity hire

>> No.18597679

>basic bitch isekai novel for 8 year olds
>needing to lift ideas from anybody
I hope you’re joking, you’d be well equipped to write Harry Potter after a playthrough of Final Fantasy 1

>> No.18597692

You can't defend an old and venerable tree without defending the rich soil from which it sprung, in this case the white race. To deny the primacy of genetics is to deny the difference between a dog and a wolf, a cow and an auroch. In other words, to be a fucking retard
QUI controls Hollywood, American news media, book publishers, etc? QUI QUI QUI?

>> No.18597701

it's the fault of publishers and agents.

>> No.18597740

What in God's name are you talking about? Thought does not emerge from a "race." It emerges from a small number of individuals. Genetics is irrelevant.

>> No.18597750


>> No.18597824

The history of mankind is the history of perpetual decline and entropy.

>> No.18597840

Thought does not emerge from a "race." It emerges from a small number of individuals. Genetics is irrelevant.
So Ancient Greece was just one big coinkidink? Good job, your model explains nothing and predicts nothing

>> No.18597897

>people have always been creative
>There's some really great stuff being created in TV, film, some videogames, and hell - even some TikTokers that have unique perspectives and now, the platform to express them.
>that spacing
You need to go back

>> No.18597909


>> No.18597914

Ancient Greeks would think genetics fags are retarded.

>> No.18597915

1. History cannot be predicted.
2. "Ancient Greece" can refer to either the customs and pieties of the Greeks of Athens, which were rigid and inflexible in a way that few of us can imagine, and the Greek philosophers, who rose above the particularities of the polis to create an everlasting tradition of thought. The latter cannot be attributed to the former.

>> No.18597939

Mother fuckers there is an art comeback about to happen.

>> No.18597940

You’re in your 30s right?
Pepe is so 00s

>> No.18597950

aren’t you like 40 now?

>> No.18597953

>Why are there so few great literary artists living?
There are many, but they're currently chained to various addictions and living in a society that is slowly but surely losing consciousness towards the value of literature.

>> No.18597954

im still in my 20s, arent you a menopausal 50 y/o?

>> No.18597960

Excellent, fuck this is delicious. A fine specimen indeed.

>> No.18597964

99% of people see stonks + real estate ownership as being things that lead to more value than attempting to write a book when most people do not even consider "author" a valid profession anymore.

>> No.18597971

By many I meant hundreds at most, so way less than 1% of the population, technically. They're out there, but as I said, they're plagued by addictions and live in a society that seems to respect literature less as time goes on.

>> No.18597973

Books of magic

>> No.18597981

We know who you are you dumb namefag; you can't bully people into (not) doing shit when everyone knows the insults you sling are pure projection.

>> No.18598041

I'm releasing my 2nd book and working on the sequel already.

>> No.18598053

don't care
didn't ask
and also you're canadian

>> No.18598064

The fact that a Canadian straight white male has the balls to even believe they have a whisper of a shred of a hint of a chance surviving off writing books in 2021 should inspire others to put pen to paper.

>> No.18598159

>even some TikTokers that have unique perspectives and now, the platform to express them.
... dude

>> No.18598361

>The people who would be "great writers" are doing other things

This. Dostoyevsky and Joyce would be directing Netflix shows or have a YouTube channel if they were around today. Most great writers only wrote books because that was the only real option at the time.

>> No.18598376

>This. Dostoyevsky and Joyce would be directing Netflix shows or have a YouTube channel if they were around today.

No they wouldn’t. Most media today is terrible anyways

>> No.18598384

Diversity hires taking over

>> No.18598389

Hope your daughter had a nice b-day Jason.

>> No.18598526

I think when you suck at something, there are 2 main coping methods.

The first way:
X is better than me because Y

The second way:
I am better because I do X instead of Y

>> No.18599359


I really don't think about it like that. Thinking about what these two said about the canon -


What we have these days is not depth but breadth. You can explore anything you want. We're drinking from a firehose instead of sipping from an aged casket but I think the drive to explore the human experience is still the same.

>> No.18599501

Probably the dumbest thing I've read in a long time. We live in the most narcissistic age that ever was and it wholly devoid of art. The law of averages alone would necessitate a golden age of artistry just by the sheer number of psychologically damaged idiots that make up our world now.

>> No.18599521

They are already out there, you just don't see them yet.

>> No.18599540

Did the age of Caesarism really ever begin? Was he wrong the whole time? Or has it yet to begin?

>> No.18599543

...or anon's premise is untrue and even moronic and in fact artist is derived from the kind of deep education that simply doesn't exist anymore. This is something manifest in every field not just literature, if you look at cartoons or simple drawing the ability to accurately and effectively draw is a lost art that is constantly bemoaned in the animation communities of both east and west, there is a vastness of technique that had accumulated and was not passed down which is made obvious by the actual lack of qualified teachers.

>> No.18599623

Hell yes, the ol' heart is feeling very full again!

I just woke up to work on fixing the tense-switching in The Shitkickers. There is a fucking mosquito in my condo that has been feeding off me for a week and the fucker bit me as I read your reply and now the back of my leg is on fire. Aaaarrrggghhh! Hahaha...

>> No.18599629

we are utterly territorialized.

>> No.18599630

Psychologically damaged idiot here, got a PO box I can send a book to?

>> No.18599632

Literature still stands as the only art form which one individual person can perform and obtain serious success. With every other art form (movies, music, and video games) barring some major and notable exceptions, requires teams of people and are joint projects and so have no single owner.

>> No.18599638

it's because everyone became rich, normie and atheist

>> No.18599645

>b) politicization of publishing and literature via blue hairs
retarded, but everything else you said is sort of alright, if weirdly edgy

>> No.18599668

Yeah... uhhh... about that... have you ever visited the Twitter feeds of Canada's big publishers? It's like a fucking 16 year old communists's Tumblr. 100% globohomo narrative. Pozzed beyond belief.

Then... have you been to any writer's fests? They are completely devoid of any masculinity. There will be more disabled Eskimo trans Sikh BDSM lesbians there than any bros with even the slightest hint of possessing a bicep.

What do the local universities in Vancouver look like? Let's look at the crew behind the local newspaper:


Yes... these are the people who will be working at the publishing companies. LMFAO!

We are living under anarcho-tyranny at the moment, only one side is allowed to fight the culture war.

>> No.18599671

>For contemporary Western civilization, reality is radically abstract and without its own content. It is a “hyper-object” whose main feature is being deprived of truth. This is no longer reality, but rather the deformed image of the real that has lost every sense of reality. A world that lacks the sense of reality is not so much a world without quality, but a world in which the good life is identified with narcissism, illusion, and the hypertrophic ability to sell and consume everything, beginning with ourselves.

>> No.18599687

i literally don't give a shit if you don’t like the current ‘political climate’ or whatever. its still retarded to try and pretend that publishing and literature was somehow not politicized before ‘people with blue hair’ ruined it like they ruined your vidya.

>> No.18599703

>idpol didnt ruin literature
go suck a dick, anon

>> No.18599719

I'd say before 2008, life was a lot less political in general.

2021 is hyper-politicized.

>> No.18599736

anon, you need to be specific: idpol was almost nonexistent. politics were always a prominent factor in anyone's life. 9/11? gulf war? vietnam war? not idpol.
while for idpol we only have MLK.

>> No.18599763

Things are so insane in Canada right now:


Hahahaha... this is almost parody

>> No.18599775

If genetics were irrelevant then it's literal random chance that success happened.

It's not because we know that living in different places in the world led to the development of different societies, survival skills and people.

These people will always approach things in a different way and that includes literature/

Your race which is essentially a byproduct of the place you lived determines what you can do and some races had the advantage.

>> No.18599778

He predicted it would happen around the year 2100-2200 so we’re still en route.

>> No.18599779

do you just not remember all the nuts tea party christian shit about obama being the antichrist because he was black? or the atheism shit? or all the satanic panics in the 90s and people freaking out over grunge or sex in media or people cursing on tv or whatever? youre actually retarded. the past you believe in never existed. especially literature has always been political, pretty explicitly at times also. unless you think dostoevsky is le ebin apolitical christian wholsomerino 900 xD

>> No.18599833

Uhhh... anon?

Turns out, the satanic panic was right. I mean, now satanism and all of its fruits are all over our culture. Drag kids dance for men in LA after 11 PM at night, we've seen it on video... where exactly do you think this culture is headed?

Before Obama, trannies and alphabet people were not a dominating culture. Now? Queer crosswalks are better protected than statues.

Sex in media? Every single last track is now basically a porn flick with fat asses shaking everywhere.

Pedo acceptance right around the corner?


>> No.18599933

>some sect said that obama being black means he is an antichrist
never heard of this, so it wasnt relevant. noone takes fanatics seriously.
the major christian churches didnt back these claims up, right? so the majority of the believers didnt care less about what some fanatics were saying.
in other words, fuck off, because im not talking about shit that ended up in the corner of the last page of some unknown journal. im talking about the stuff that ends up in the first page.
>people freaking out about grunge and sex and asses on their screens.
in order to be identity politics you need to have an identity.
if you are talking about grunge, then people saying that grunge is shit and guns and roses are better is just like people saying that videogames are violent better watch movies. its not idpol. noone will kill you, jail you, beat you if you say something like that. ok? you are very retard if you actually think that grunge has something to do with politics.
>inb4 it has something to do with what you can show on tv
lol. it's copyrighted music. they wont show it anyway.
>inb4 but what about showing nirvana's ads on tv?
first: grunge was a fad. second: it started and it is a very niche music genre. ads are related to fads. fads can be provocatory. some people will get offended by those fads, but those fads will disappear after sometime and the offended people will be happy once again.
but you are right on one thing: when a niche culture gets pushed as if it is a stable part of the mainstream culture, only then it becomes idpol. like it happens with the lgbt community or the fanatic evangelists.
is a retard. and he is niche. his books suck dicks. it is famous among the higher class, but noone (with actual taste) actually reads him. bad example anon. it's like saying "if war and peace is famous, then people read it". if you wanna talk about not idpol books, then see manzoni or dante or count of montchrist (or idk how you write it in english).
also, im talking about idpol=talking about the minorities as if their minoritarian characteristics makes them important members of the society.

>> No.18599979

why do you think this? genuinely curious

>> No.18599989

Great post.

>> No.18600014

I feel like the cycle of culture has become so grotesque and forced... we are in the "Warrant: Cherry Pie" stage of creativity. The cultural momentum will swing in a new direction soon, and with it, the organic, genuine cultural output will ramp up.

>> No.18600101

As usual /lit/ ignores the only good answer.

>> No.18600352

>Thought does not emerge from a "race." It emerges from a small number of individuals. Genetics is irrelevant.
I dont get how this is the most positivist time where every aspect of psychology is being analyzed through neurology and in the face of an aporie the neurologist always triumphs over the psychologist, philosopher, etc.
BUT we still hear these absolutely retarded takes that thought is abstract from matter.
>dude thoughts are like pneumatic man

Fuck off subhuman
>t. never read the greeks, especially the founder of biology Aristotle

>> No.18600395

People that often complain how today there is no good books to read, no good albums to listen to and no good films and television shows to watch are also the people that have shit taste and don't know or care to look around and put some effort into finding that which they lament is now missing

>> No.18600402

>Dostoevsky is a retard. and he is niche. his books suck dicks.
No, you're the retard here.

>> No.18600429


>> No.18600455

Good work anon, those are some great posts.

>> No.18600517

>If genetics were irrelevant then it's literal random chance that success happened.

>> No.18600524

>no thesis
>no antithesis
>no argument
>no u
in other words, cope

>> No.18600789

>autofiction bad!

>> No.18600797

I'd subscribe to James Joyce's youtube channel

>> No.18600850

A 19 year old Patrick Leigh Fermour describing what he recites from memory out loud whilst walking from Rotterdam to Constantinople:

>The range is fairly predictable and all too revealing of the scope, the enthusiasms and the limitations, examined at the eighteenth milestone, of a particular kind of growing up. There was a great deal of Shakespeare, numerous speeches, most of the choruses of Henry V, long stretches of A Midsummer Night’s Dream (drunk in subconsciously and only half understood, by acting Starveling, the shortest part in the play, at the age of six); a number of the Sonnets, many detached fragments; and, generally, a fairly wide familiarity. Several Marlowe speeches followed and stretches of Spenser’s Pro- and Epithalamion; most of Keats’s Odes; the usual pieces of Tennyson, Browning and Coleridge; very little Shelley, no Byron. (Amazingly to me today, I scarcely considered him a poet at all.) Nothing from the eighteenth century except Gray’s Elegy and some of The Rape of the Lock; some Blake; The Burial of Sir John Moore; bits of The Scholar Gypsy; some Scott, fragments of Swinburne, any amount of Rossetti, for whom I had had a long passion, now quite vanished; some Francis Thompson and some Dowson; one sonnet of Wordsworth; bits of Hopkins; and, like all English people with any Irish links, Rolleston’s translation of The Dead of Clonmacnois; a great deal of Kipling; and some of the verses from Hassan. We now move on to Recent Acquisitions: passages from Donne and Herrick and Quarles, one poem of Raleigh, one of Sir Thomas Wyatt, one of Herbert, two of Marvell; a few Border ballads; an abundance of A.E. Housman; some improper stretches of Chaucer (mastered chiefly for popularity purposes at school); a lot of Carroll and Lear. No Chesterton or Belloc, beyond bits of the Cautionary Tales. In fact, apart from those mentioned, very little from the present century. No Yeats later than the Ronsard paraphrase and Innisfree and Down by the Salley Gardens; but this belonged more to singing than reciting; of Pound or Eliot, not a word, either learnt or read; and of younger modern poets now venerable, nothing. If someone had asked me point blank who my favourite contemporary poets were, I would have answered Sacheverell, Edith and Osbert Sitwell, in that order: (Dr. Donne and Gargantua and The Hundred and One Harlequins had appeared in white paper pamphlets while I was at school; I felt I had broken into dazzling new territory).

He goes on and on, lamenting how shallow his knowledge is. He speaks Latin and Greek and learnt passable German in 2 weeks.
He was kicked out of King's school in Canterbury for bad behaviour. The privileged classes these days seem to have a far narrower sense of history and literature.

>> No.18601359

You're probably right--I apologize. I tend to get all these terms mixed up, I'm more of a creative than an academic writer, but any feedback helps. Thank you anon.

>> No.18601401

Narcissism, or egoism, and it's self-reflection is one step described in the posts. The second, which can be--though in my opinion, doesn't have to be--brought on by higher education, or preferably life experience, is the ability to examine the narcissistic personality/ego/particular/I/subjective/whatever you want to call it, against the universal/objective/external reality of what is beyond the first stage.

The synthesis and perpetual navigation, or ability to observe and detail such a navigation, is what makes good artists good artists, and arguably good people good people. It represents physical, spiritual, psychological, and perhaps even natural, balance.

Failure to reconcile these two principles and balance them in the day-to-day is what leads to, in my opinion, a dysfunctional, unstable, and decaying personality, maybe even soul. That doesn't mean you have to be in perfect balance all the time--I don't think that's the point of the human experience, and even the people who are venerated to have accomplished such a feat clearly, in some way, display dysfunctional and unbalanced personalities.

But it's the pursuit of such a goal, and at the very least, the recognition of its significance, for both the individual, and the community, that is meaningful.

>> No.18601567

not an argument

>> No.18601570

Is there any gay shit in this fag's novels or is it all heterosexual despite him being gay? I've never read him and I've always wondered

>> No.18601713

Trophy culture
Bad education system
Most literary agents are NPCs who only want the same story over and over again
Too much bad literature to trawl through to find anything with potential.
Everything has been done
Standards are too low.

>> No.18601724

The global oligarchs are squeezing the life and spirit out of the planet and everyone's too busy pointing fingers at each other to realize

>> No.18601739

Same for most US ones too.
And in England, if you didn't attend Oxford then forget about it.

>> No.18601757

The privileged classes these days are cocaine addled NPCs. Education standards at top universities were lowered to accommodate them, with affirmative action promoted to disguise the overall lowering of the bar.

>> No.18602257

I like your optimism, but studies have shown that in modern times, intelligence is negatively correlated with birth rate. If those studies are correct, and the average person is a little dumber than they were 100 years ago, then that may explain why today's creative works seem to be of a lower level. Luckily, the world population exploded over the last few centuries, so even if the average intelligent is lower, people with outlier high intelligence are still more numerous than ever before, and you're absolutely right when you say genius hasn't disappeared. And maybe this trend of decreasing avg intelligence will reverse in the coming centuries.

>> No.18602299

Those studies are correct, and completely misinterpreted. IQ is correlated negatively with birth rate because modernized societies have lower birth rates and a higher degree of abstract thinking from childhood: (think "giving your baby an iPad") so they enjoy a much greater benefit from the Flynn Effect.
The "average person", controlled for general mitochondrial DNA characteristics and Y-Dna haplogroup, is much smarter than they were 100 years ago. The reason why the world average IQ is taking a nosedive is because of the relative population growth of low-iq third world countries.

>> No.18602333

What is your point? How is this relevant to the OP?

>> No.18602373

Intelligence is negatively associated with fertility within groups within nations. This has been true in France and the UK since the 19th century (see Farewell to Alms/The Son Also Rises by Gregory Clark). Genes associated with intelligence (through GWAS studies) are negatively associated with fertility. The Flynn effect has stopped or reversed in developed nations, and never really touched the most g linked parts of intelligence (mathematics hasn't improved much at all). Even Flynn was sceptical as to what the Flynn effect really meant. We're really not that much smarter than we were 100 hundred years ago, but we have maxed out the benefits of mass education, even as we've dulled our elite education in the name of equality.

>> No.18602445

Nobody reads anymore. Great artists are growing up in this world, why would they choose to write, when they could make film or something? The only way literature stops declining is if its readership does. Essentially impossible.

>> No.18602479

Writing is the ONLY medium where the author is 100% in control.

Every other medium is chalk full of SJWs, blue hairs, faggots, and others who would never allow any project to continue if it wasn't 100% pozzed.

>> No.18602516

The publishers won't distribute your book if they don't like it. Self publishing is essentially spitting in the ocean. Counterexample is Youtube videos and podcasts and indie music.

>> No.18602540

I was afraid of that. I wonder if there's a solution. Were eugenicists right after all? Or do we just ignore the problem and hope it corrects itself?

>> No.18602546

Maybe self-publishing is spitting in the ocean for someone like you... have you ever self-expressed? Do you even have a single photo of yourself with a beautiful ex-gf? Have you ever drifted your 700 horsepower Supra while merging on the highway?

Like seriously dude, this website is the most depressed place on Earth because none of you believe in yourselves at all.

>> No.18602561

"hehe we killed God XD rawr everything is meaningless"
"uhhh why does nobody make anything meaningful anymore???

>> No.18602565


>> No.18602570

I believe in myself more than I do anyone. What I don't believe in is the current modern world or the plebs in it. It doesn't matter how much you or I "self-express", it will not stop the decline of literature. Predicating your happiness on societal trends, or worse, pretending that they may be changed, is sad. Just live and let live and let die.

>> No.18602576

I have literally been on 4chan since the early 00's, I'm banned from every social media platform, and I'm guaranteed the most bipolar schizo in this entire fucking thread you complete faggot.

>> No.18602582


There are so many ways we can fight back against the nonsense.

At some point, there will be people looking back at the recent "music" our culture produces and they will only be able to laugh hysterically. It cannot even become anymore degenerate at this point unless they begin to film children having sex set to a beat.

>> No.18602602

>nuuu I fit in guise, just look at my list of social qualifications!!
Just what a filthy normie would say.

>> No.18602618

You are projecting. I guarantee there are millions of people like you, but only one of me.

>> No.18602626

Sorry massa. I've been a bad buck. Pls don't break me.

>> No.18602631

Becoming Sisyphus is not noble. Things will change, but not from us. Art never effects a cultural shift; art exists within a culture and is either part of it, or outside of it. The art that falls outside is later regarded by historians as the indication of beginnings of change. But it was not the art that caused any change, the art was created by the few people who had already rejected the zeitgeist and who happened to be artists. The actual change comes about from other means.

>> No.18602634

The authors and writers who lurk on this board are awash in self-doubt from all the defeatists on here. The hatred directed at Waldun, for example, is pure venom for someone daring to self-express. It comes from jealousy.

>> No.18602642

Post a single project you've finished in your lifetime.



Shit on it all you want, I bet you cannot link anything you've ever done in your life and yet you choose to spread your own defeatist shit here.

I believe you need to drop the jealousy you have for creators, and begin to create yourself. You'll feel a lot better. I'm sure you have some talents that you simply have no faith in, you need to invest in some inner-strength and don't let your memes be dreams.

>> No.18602652

You may have a point. There is a certain darkness here. It's evident by the number of suicidal posts I've seen in the "write what's on your mind" thread.

>> No.18602653

I can tell by this comment that you have neither read Harry Potter, nor olayed Final Fantasy 1. Retard

>> No.18602665

We all have self-doubt, and it would be easy to let it consume you if you cannot see anyone who inspires you in this place.

I haven't found a single author that posts regularly here. Looks like this place is meant to discourage people.

>> No.18602667

capitalism gave birth to the novel and enabled the creation of the truly phenomenal works of literature
but then it killed all art
all that exists today, in all art forms and almost without exception, is either content or commodity

>> No.18602680

By all means, create. It's a noble pursuit. But larping like you're going to save civilization with your writings is just delusional. I haven't shit on you or your works at all. But now I am: you clearly have not read much if you think cultural movements come about through art, even through the most popular formats of art. They sure as hell never come about from dying forms of art. It's about as likely as a new Rakugo performance released today shifting the culture of Japan. Focus more on reading and less on your self aggrandizement; your writing will thank you for it.

>> No.18602686

"is just delusional"
>defeatist post, stopped reading

>> No.18603118

Based and true

>> No.18603143

I read more than most people I know, and I'm lucky if I get through 10 books in a year. I went to university, I studied philosophy as part of my degree. Something to do with lots of other things to do. Reading is 'Low bandwidth'.

>> No.18603150

No one is writing them because no one is buying them.

>> No.18603198

You have to use your mind when you read a book, as opposed to tuning out and going "oooh wow flashy booms" to a Marvel movie.

>> No.18603217

Wow that is impressive Canada

>> No.18603223

Please take down this VERY anti Semitic post.

>> No.18603238

She will keep her job. Might even get promoted!

Canada = Anarcho-Tyranny 100%

>> No.18603297

I have never heard of a single intelligent thing Joyce Carol Oates has said. Her comments on Faulkner, Austen, goddamned anything, are embarrassingly stupid.

>> No.18603474

>this website is the most depressed place on Earth because none of you believe in yourselves at all.

it's a shame. Everyone here thinks they need to be some type of superman to make any change in the world. Anons, sometimes all you need to do is put the right foot in front of the left. Action can conquer everything. Focus on progress not perfection.

Take my word for it. Life doesn't have a finish line where things suddenly change. You can't live your life thinking once you "make it", you have arrived. You must use what you have to enjoy life, when you can. - as good as it gets.

>> No.18603484

Because smoking weed is illegal

>> No.18603501

You got it right the first time - humans have lost ambition.
Our ability to channel the sublime has been wholly corrupted.

>> No.18603509

Hell yes brother. The self-defeat on this website is 90% of posts. (I understand it though, modern life is supposed to beat the soul out of you, and perfectly mould you for a 9-5 wagie cagie job.)

>> No.18603539

>Every other medium is chalk full of SJWs, blue hairs, faggots

Contemporary literature is pretty much synonymous with woke shit and pandering.

>> No.18603573

Oh yeah, no disagreement there. I went to a few years of "writer's fests" in Vancouver and it might as well have been a blue hair BLM rally.

>> No.18603856

>its real
Remember ten years ago when "anti-racist means anti-white" was just a catchphrase for internet nazis and not reality?
What the fuck happened.

>> No.18603865

If you took people from 2001 and explained to them 2021, they would call you a complete schizo and laugh in your face. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, would believe what we're living through right now.

>> No.18604031

>Remember ten years ago when "anti-racist means anti-white" was just a catchphrase for internet nazis and not reality?
the internet Nazis were ahead of the curve anon, they were right about many things then and still are now.

>> No.18604049

You're right but for the wrong reason.

>> No.18604100

What is the mainstream culture? What the people believe or what the corporations and marketers believe?

>> No.18604133

Of all sad words of tongue or pen,
the saddest are these: "/pol/ was right again."

>> No.18604154

>comparing joyce to a tiktok
The captcha needs to include calculus so these fucking redditors stay out

>> No.18604155

Checked and witnessed!

>> No.18604158

There's a brief mention of two lesbians who abuse the young son one of them had from a previous marriage (GIWTWM)
Proust very tenaciously pursues a romance with a woman in these books

>> No.18604211

You're on the literature board, buddy. Maybe you should try reading once in a while. Might help you with that retardation.

>> No.18604245

Donald trump was a one term president and his insurrection failed so nothing unusual has happened at all, boy I'm feeling mighty sleepy how about you

>> No.18604268

And augustus was RIGHT that Rome was crumbling before he took power

>> No.18604278

Ted would have believed it.

>> No.18604279

They'd probably think most people are on drugs. Its not that much of a culture shock.
Now, 1981 to 2001, that s a culture shock.

>> No.18604287

If you actually read a book instead of just shitposting on /pol/ you would realise that SJWism didn't just magically arise out of nowhere. Try Nietzsche and you might get an idea of how old this problem is.

>> No.18604291

I take this post back, 81 to 01 isnt much of a culture shock either.

>> No.18604310

1981 to 2021 would make people kill themselves or go completely insane.

>> No.18604318

"Internet nazis" knew more about the genesis of ethnic conflict than your high school social studies teacher. That's what happened. These trends are well studied and documented but they just aren't taught in schools.

>> No.18604330

Satanism=inner divinity I.E the ultimate form of amoral individualist bullshit. America is the most individualist nation on Earth.

>> No.18604341


>> No.18604344

the US isn't individualist.

>> No.18604351

If I were around in '81 I would be a graff kid. Jumping to '01 the only great difference is loss of b-boys in the scene.

>> No.18604369

It really took off around 2012 though, which you'd know if you had any situational awareness.

>> No.18604377

I love JCO so much.

>> No.18604382

>that la times upswing in mentions around the time of rodney king riots

>> No.18604386

You look a LOT older than Lucy in that pic.

You will never touch another woman who isn't as wrinkly and decrepit as you.

>> No.18604454

It's just the modern form of political correctness, which was just an expression of what Nietzsche calls slave morality, which really began to gain political prominence during the French Revolution which was the origin of the modern left/right wing, and happened over 200 years ago. You people are so fucking ignorant that you think this mindset didn't exist 20 years ago which you would know is wrong if you got off /pol/ for 5 minutes and READ A FUCKING BOOK, NIGGER. THIS IS A LITERATURE BOARD.

>> No.18604491

I already know all that basic bitch shit though

>> No.18604533

I just want all the retarded Ted K posters to fuck off. The amount of posts that unironically call him a prophet because he was writing about the same thing nietszche was writing about 100 years before him makes you lot (/pol/acks) seem like complete fucking retards.

>> No.18604557

Those were great threads

>> No.18604568

I feel like the Tedposters need to read Ellul (the guy who inspired Ted) who sourced his arguments from people who had seen the same fucking issue as far back as Classical Greece. Ted scratched the surface of what technological reliance does to a culture, he failed to address the deep philosophical issue behind it and why it isn't technology that produces the effects but rather is one of the effects.

>> No.18604618

I don't use that board. Orwell's newspeak has more to do with PC as much. Nietzsche's diagnosis of lefties is quite similar to Ted's I'll agree. I don't know if Ted read N, could be convergence, just like N with Stirner possibly and all through intellectual history.

>> No.18604768

Are you fucking retarded? Are you really going to pretend the social environment is the same as in 2001? Are you really going to pretend people were just as sensitive to politics as they were now? You're either 16 years old, or legitimately retarded. "Hurr durr what about Victorian England?" We're talking about the last few decades. Quit pretending things never change. You're worse than a boomer you diseased faggot.

>> No.18604817

Your post is spot on.

>> No.18604827

Thank you. Cunts like that really piss me off.

>> No.18604848

Go back

>> No.18604852

I'm 43 years old bro. I've seen the culture completely fucking switch. In my country, if you see a person with a 5 o'clock shadow and a large frame with an adam's apple, but they're wearing makeup and a dress, you have to refer to them as a woman OR YOU CAN GO TO JAIL.

In 2001 if you told people that, they would never believe you. Not in a million years. They would say that's like making calling the sky blue illegal.

>> No.18604896


>> No.18604920

You sound like a fag.

>> No.18604922

Instead of social justice issues we had rampant anti-religiosity. No level of atheistic discussion has matched the early 00s.
As for politics.. Do you remember how much 9-11 and the war on terror dominated discussion in the media and public? Domestic policy etc. The recession had just begun. Republicans this, democrats that, its really no different to now except one issue is substituted for another.

>> No.18604933

>you have to refer to them as a woman OR YOU CAN GO TO JAIL
Provide one example of this ever happening.

>> No.18604951

>spergposter immediately gets defensive about trannies
like clockwork

>> No.18604962

There is no cultural switch at all, it's just one aspect of modern culture changing form and gaining prominence by the mass media circus. None of the basic premises of modernity have changed whatsoever. The only reason you haven't recognized it until now is because you only pay attention to what the media shoves in your face and they only pay attention to the most simplistic, surface elements of culture.

Like I keep saying, this is a literature board and people expect you to read. If all you want to do is shitpost about surface level aspects of politics, there is a much better board for you.

>> No.18604964

you’re talking to children, that’s why they think politics began with the death of trayvon martin or whatever

>> No.18604970

>None of the basic premises of modernity have changed whatsoever.
Mind if I ask how old you are?

>> No.18604995

I'm 29. Is it really important to your conception of my argument that you paint me as a high schooler, or as an out of touch boomer like you did in that other post? Can't you just engage without breaking into hysterics over some bullshit?

>> No.18605007

>just ignore the surreal totalitarian fever dream unfolding around you it's all perfectly normal :^)

>> No.18605011

"some bullshit" is actually a huge gap in life experience from someone 10 years younger in 2021. Life was not politicized even a fraction as heavy as today, the ramping up really began around 2008.

Clown world took off like a rocket after 2015, and demon world is here in 2021.

Everything about the satanic panic came true.


>> No.18605026

>hysterical kulturkampfer can’t back up his claims
work clocklike

>> No.18605033

>Doesn't everyone live in what they perceive to be an "age of decline"?
Obviously not

>> No.18605044

>spergposter thinks everyone is the same person
just take the meds

>> No.18605046

The totalitarian fever dream was always there, you just didn't realise it until liberal states began to struggle to maintain the illusion after the '08 economic crash. If you continue to shit up my board and not return to your own I will continue to deliver red pills that the screeching idiots of /pol/ is not capable of realising.

>> No.18605072

Your red pill so far has been Nietzsche 101. What next, Mark Fischer? Please. Playtime is over, the reality we're heading into is far darker than your wildest imagination.

>> No.18605086

Yes that's right. Even babby's first philosopher goes over the head of most of you retards. You seem to be smarter than the other ones though.

>> No.18605105

It is all simple: genre fiction killed literature by the sole fact of being the equivalent of an infinite amount of candy; that is, it is as addictive and destructive as sugar. Yet, where is the effort to make programs or at least tax this form of sugar? The latter of which, of course, it is the moral duty of the state, if it wants to preserve its cultural and intellectual capital, to impose a tax on genre fiction so as to create ambition and creativity in the populace and make the masses truly literate again, like in the best yesteryears when a high school diploma already gave you a good part of the Western canon.

And yes, I really wished I could have a JD and create a heavily imposed tax on genre fiction based on the number of total sales per year, with sci-fi having the highest tax because I want to fuck Scientologists in the ass.

>> No.18605115

Oh shit, forgot to add that self-help shit should be aimed too but I assume OP is only referencing fiction.

>> No.18605418

people like you need to be shot

>> No.18605435

You complete idiot. Hellworld was here 500 years ago. 1,000 years ago. 10,000 years ago. The neolithic revolution was a mistake and your addiction to civilized decadence is just as bad, if not worse, than the past 200 years of cultural decline.

There's no escaping it. The damage is done. There can be no return to what once was. The legacy of the world-builders is here to stay. Remain in this hell you have built.

>> No.18605470

Did I say civilization was a good thing? No. I'm just here to tell you it gets much worse.

>> No.18605971

Who tf actually takes these autofiction pamphlets seriously outside of the wanker scene ?

>> No.18606214

>mfw writing autofiction right now

>> No.18606466

his narrator in the novel is vaguely homophobic, there are gay people around

>> No.18607227

Why do so many people treat charm like its mind control? No where does it say that if you get charmed and the charmer tells you to kill your friends you have to comply.

>> No.18607251

Everything has declined. Every single art form. Because successful and intelligent people are following the market and non-artistic endeavors, the arts are left to midwits and marginalized groups (women, POC, trannies, etc.), so they're creating their own narrative. It's capitalism's fault.

>> No.18607373

Downright prophetic...

>> No.18607483

Successful and intelligent guy here. I quit the porn industry to be poor and do art. FEELS FUCKING GREAT!

2nd book about to release!

>> No.18607539

Jews in charge of who gets published and who doesn't.
Talentless non-whites favored over white people.

The next Flaubert or Chekhov probably got turned down in favor of Shaneequa LaJohnson, who wrote a "brave" and "powerful" expose on what it means to be black in America.

Fuck this clown world and it can't end fast enough.

>> No.18607594

Stop being defeatist.
Start making your own shit, for your own people.

>> No.18608364

Give it to'em butters. Theyre just coping

>> No.18608395

You've seen modern fascist "art" though, like the fashwave stuff. Hideous.

>> No.18608408

Okay so show us how it's done then

>> No.18608446

I'm not a fascist, they're wrong about almost everything. In fact I transcended the whole spectrum a while ago. Trolling partisan hacks like (you) is something of a fine art though.

>> No.18608450

Who said anything about being fascist?

>> No.18608589

I had a backlog of interesting books i would like to read and iI deleted the fucking file without meaning to, now I have nothing. I don't rember any of the names

>> No.18608768

>No I'm not going to actually create anything
>I'm just going to whine and shitpost about everything
People like you are the reason art is dead

>> No.18608889

/Lit/ is full of self-defeated people.

>> No.18608985

Literally what is your point smoothbrain

>> No.18608992


>> No.18609892

this is seriously one of the worst posts I've read on this board.

>> No.18609897

he wouldn't have one, pleb. Go watch your shitty youtubers and e-celebs, literature doesn't need people like you.

>> No.18609910

Proust didn't write autofiction, and she's not saying it's bad, she's saying her own work of autofiction is mediocre when compared to the praise it's been recieving and the authors she considers great. Learn reading comprehension, retard, no wonder you think Proust is autofiction.

>> No.18609921

No great artist is really making films either, so this argument about "great artists" or "geniuses" going to other fields doesn't really make sense.

>> No.18609961

>Dostoyevsky and Joyce would be directing Netflix shows or have a YouTube channel if they were around today.
They would still be authors if they were around today because what they wanted to do could only be done with the written word.

>> No.18610107

Ancient Greeks (every single one of them) would agree with all of my ideological and political positions while thinking all of yours are retarded.

>> No.18610331


>> No.18610392

Post the Great American TikTok

>> No.18610425

imagine how rotted your brain must be to think tiktok in anyway could be an artistic form on the level of literature or film.

>> No.18610588

Having no sense of humor is a sign of low intelligence man. Joyce tried his hand at poetry, plays, short fiction and novels, there's no reason to assume that given the tools he wouldn't try youtube.

>> No.18610610

Take your meds

>> No.18610761

Holy shit. How can anyone be this stupid?

>> No.18611289

no culture is deprived from race

>> No.18611449

worst zoomer cope yet

>> No.18611467

Because it's looking to find a bigger market. Making things simpler means more customers will buy them.
Why do you think the iPhone is successful?

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