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18648688 No.18648688 [Reply] [Original]

This was really....FUN to read.
What is /lit/‘s opinion on Leviathan?
What’s the next step in political theory after this?

>> No.18648732

Thucydides and Burke

>> No.18648758

hobbes was a marrano

>> No.18648976

>>18648688
https://mises.org/wire/problem-security-historicity-state-and-european-realism

>> No.18648980

Go for Locke and then Rousseau to round out early contractarians.

>> No.18649961

>>18648980
Social contract for rosseau right?

>> No.18649983

>>18649961
Hobbes Locke and Rousseau are all social contract theorists, after them move onto Hume and Kant

>> No.18650049

Rawls theory of justice

>> No.18650148
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18650148

>>18649983
Is this translation okay?

>> No.18650185

>>18650148
Oh you mean the book lol. idk I read the second discourse in school

>> No.18650208

>>18648758
so

>> No.18650245

>>18650185
Thanks
I'll try to look for that one too.

>> No.18650379

>>18648688
The Narrow Corridor: States, Societies, and the Fate of Liberty

>> No.18650390

>>18648732
>Thucydides
Is not political theory. He's a historian and his history sucks compared to Xenophon

>> No.18650484

>>18650390
Stop posting

>> No.18650497

>>18650390
Thuky-deedees is referenced throughout Leviathan

>> No.18650530

>>18648688
Found this seems like a fairly legit guide: https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/152504.Political_Philosophy_for_Busy_People

>> No.18650807

>>18650390
idiot

>> No.18650914
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18650914

>>18648688

>> No.18651011

>What is /lit/‘s opinion on Leviathan?
idealist drivel

>> No.18651035

>>18651011
Democracy is idealist drivel.
The form of rule in Leviathan is just the natural state of things.

>> No.18651041

>>18651011
Despicably cringe
>>18651035
Dangerously based

>> No.18651101

>>18650484
>>18650497
>>18650807
t. Thucy fags

>> No.18651124

bellum omnium contra omnes

>> No.18651194
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18651194

>>18651035
>The form of rule in Leviathan is just the natural state of things.
>source: hobbes' ass

>>18651041
my uygha

>> No.18651206

>>18651041
no wait fuck, I misread. you're both idiots

>> No.18651798
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18651798

>>18649961
Two treatise on government + letter if toleration for Locke (you could get away with just reading the second treatise)
The discourse on the origins of inequality + the social contract for Rousseau

>> No.18651873
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18651873

>>18649961
Read this for Rousseau, it's all good stuff.

>> No.18651878

>>18650390
spoken like a true philistine

>> No.18651899
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18651899

Did anyone else read this and whenever he talks about the state of nature imagine nearly-naked pre-speech, hunter gatherers in the woods trying to kill each other as though it was a novel you were reading and not a philosophical work?
Retvrn to Tradition

>> No.18651954

Machiavelli though he might be seen as preceding.

>> No.18652018

>>18651035
rule takes place in opposition to the state of nature. the state of nature has no rule, it is simply a competition of individual powers

>> No.18652058
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18652058

>>18648688
unfortunately Locke

>> No.18652253

This kind of thing keeps happening...
>I'm looking up stuff about Leviathan
>turns out /lit/ has a thread up about something else also called Leviathan
Stop doing what I'm doing!

>> No.18652386

>>18648688
Fuck off and all, life today is nasty, poor, solitary, brutish, and short, his whole argument is hogwash...I say toss the infant with the water. Because it's a retarded infant, who reads like a coward who watched his dad get his ass kicked fist fighting on the Church's front step as a child. Sparta was peak society.

>> No.18652420

>>18650914
This

>> No.18652428

>>18652253
Did you think that you do one thing in your day that not even at least one other, out of the eight billion with you, isn't also doing in a day's time?

>> No.18652444

>>18651041
thumbs down

>>18652386
thumbs up

>> No.18652484
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18652484

>>18648688
Unironically, vitalism. The Leviathan is an egregore, the frontispiece depicts clear emergentism a step beyond the Platonic body politic.

>> No.18653121

>>18651873
>>18651798
Are the penguin ones good enough or should i always go for the usual univ press and or hackett?
I don't mind getting the latter it just means i gotta wait longer since i gotta get it from overseas.
Thanks for the recs

>> No.18653142

Most people here like him outside of a couple anarchists.
Some have recommended Locke and Rousseau after Hobbes; I don't really agree. While Locke and Rousseau are what you *should* read next to get a well-rounded view of political theory, if you want more Hobbesian stuff, Spinoza, Schmitt, and Strauss are probably what you should read next.

>> No.18653154

Hobbes was wrong about the state of nature being lawless anarchy.
Locke was retarded in his premise that humans are equal and he probably set humanity back by hundreds of years.

>> No.18653157

>>18651899
Leibniz says in a letter to Foucher that he had not read any works of geometry, and had only read Euclid as a novel thus far, on account of his preference to pursue his own path of deep thinking whilst reading, an experience which, as he describes it, sounds like symptoms of being an autistic person.

He hadn't read Euclid seriously halfway through his life and the guy invents calculus. Maybe there's hope for you too.

>> No.18653230

>>18653142
There's no reason to go crazy with Locke or Rousseau but anybody interested in political theory should definitely read their basic works just to get an understanding of what they were about, especially considering how the political actors who embraced their ideas have ultimately out-competed followers of Hobbes.

>> No.18653259

>>18653230
Yeah, I agree; I'm just saying if OP liked Hobbes specifically and wants to read more Hobbesian works, he won't really enjoy Locke or Rousseau that much (they write in very different styles with very different methodologies).

>> No.18653285

>>18651041
WOW! UPVOT... I MEAN BASED

>> No.18653501
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18653501

>>18653121
In terms of Locke he wrote in English so there shouldn't be a problem translation-wise. For Rousseau, I'm sure penguin is serviceable. I would prefer a Cambridge or Hackett edition because they tend to have better introductory material and footnotes, and these can enhance your understanding of a text (for example, the use of amour de soi and amour propre in Rousseau's second discourse is important to pick up on, which would be pointed out in the footnotes of a good university edition. I'm not sure if Penguin has it). But you can find all of these editions on libgen if you want to reference them or read the essays afterwards. I know this place can be pretty autistic about translations, but it is a minority of cases where there is such a bad translation that it ruins the text (the only one off the top of my head that i can think of is the penguin edition Heraclitus). If you're just getting into it there is no need to be so stressed about editions, as if you get more serious you'll just revisit the texts later and can read a different translation/edition then.

>> No.18653697
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18653697

>>18653142
>>18653259
Rousseau and Locke are far closer stylistically and methodologically to Hobbes than either Schmitt or Strauss, being that all three employ a state of nature argument and a social contract argument. Schmitt and strauss do neither. Perhaps you meant normatively.
And no one should be reading strauss until they have a comprehensive understanding of the classics. Struass is atypical in his interpretations and should not be the introduction to these thinkers; they should form their own judgements on the primary material first. I'm not sure where the sudden upsurge in interest in him or the factional politics of his followers has come from, but it's suddenness suggests it isn't endogenous. Some frogtwitter trend or discord push i imagine.

>> No.18653763

>>18653697
>I'm not sure where the sudden upsurge in interest in him or the factional politics of his followers has come from, but it's suddenness suggests it isn't endogenous. Some frogtwitter trend or discord push i imagine.
West Coast Straussians are the only people left in America with any semi-institutional pull who could be considered both right wing and not retarded. It's only natural that zoomer rightists will move on to Strauss after exhausting themselves with Conservative Revolution figures like Junger and Schmitt.

>> No.18654548

>>18653501
Thanks
I'm not yet done with Hobbes' Leviathan (Wordsworth classics)
But I'll definitely follow it up with either locke or Rousseau. Regarding spinoza, i got decartes first instead i hope that's okay since I'm coming from st Augustine's confessions and will probably read city of god in the future as well.

>> No.18654982

>>18648688
Actually. you sould follow up with Behemoth...

>> No.18654996
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18654996

>>18654548
Yeah that's all fine, Descartes is prior to Spinoza anyway.
All the good stuff of Hobbes is in the first two books, with the last two books being biblical exegesis in support of his previous argument. While it's interesting why he included it and how he ordered his book, the sections themselves aren't very interesting or important. So if you feel it dragging too much it's fine to skip it—you will lose nothing in comprehension of the broader argument. Most people only read and refer to the first two books of Leviathan anyway.
I would also recommend Locke before Rousseau because Rousseau's second discourse is a direct argument against both Hobbes and Locke, and Rousseau's Social Contract is a direct continuation of his second discourse.

>> No.18655032

what does everyone think of burke? particularly his reflections on the revolution in france

i remember i took 1 intro philosophy subject (i majored in government), and we had to do readings on burke. the lecturer asked if anyone DIDNT hate burke and i raised my hand and everyone looked so disgusted with me? i recognised a lot of them from the marxist society though

>> No.18655144

>>18654982
Titan comes next.

>> No.18655520
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18655520

Am currently reading pic related. I am currently reading the chapter on Rousseau and have just finished the chapters on Hobbes and Locke. I am planning to read at least Hobbes and Locke (maybe also Rousseau and Burke). Glad to hear you had fun reading Hobbes. I guess it would be only natural to read Locke after Hobbes

>> No.18655526 [DELETED] 
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18655526

>>18654996
Thank you anon
I have to get ready for this then it's 880 pages

>> No.18655545
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18655545

I messed up and looked up the wrong book and I thought it's 880 pages but it's only 336

Thank you anon >>18654996

>> No.18655791
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18655791

>>18655545
oh actually it's the right book but combined with his other work
it's 880 pages in total, at least this edition.

Is this good?