/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18703130]

is he the GOAT? next to Shakespeare, does anyone come close to him?

[Anonymous No.18703139]

The GOAT. I hate this acronym. And never heard of him, so probably not.

[Anonymous No.18703141]

>>18703130

He would probably say Dante.

[Anonymous No.18703152]

>>18703130

[Anonymous No.18703156]

>>18703130
And that would be Plato. Not even joking.

[Anonymous No.18703157]

>>18703139
>never heard of him

[Anonymous No.18703159]

He hated Jews just like Ol' Billy Shakes so I'd say yeah :^)

[Anonymous No.18703165]

>>18703130
His best doesn't even come close to Dickinson.

Not to say it's trash, but... even Pound is better.

Next to Shakespeare is Joyce. Next to Joyce is Pinecone.

Next to Eliot on his better side is Gaddis.

=\

[Anonymous No.18703167]

>>18703139
>never heard of him
sounds like you're the goat living under a rock and all

[Anonymous No.18703173]

>>18703159
Anglo's don't know the meaning of Antisemitism.

[Anonymous No.18703175]

>>18703167
>>18703157
Well, I know Plato.

[Anonymous No.18703188]

>>18703167
And I'm not a native English speaker.

[Anonymous No.18703191]

>>18703165
>His best doesn't even come close to Dickinson.

I see my preaching had some effect on this board.

[Anonymous No.18703196]

>>18703165
lol all the academic memes in one. Fucking Joyce and Pynchon as the peak of poetry. ahahhahaha. Read the opening page of Recognitions and don't tell me that's putrid try-hard shit with four references in one. It's un-fluid sloppy writing that pretends to be smart. I've never seen such little taste in one post.

[Anonymous No.18703197]

>>18703188
you're on lit breh

[Anonymous No.18703208]

>>18703165
>His best doesn't even come close to Dickinson.

She's overrated. Good, but completely overrated by her fans.

[Anonymous No.18703211]

>>18703197
I'm not really into poetry. Used to like it, but school ruined it. I'm slowly getting back to it. I'm reading mainly epics and Shakespeare atm.

[Anonymous No.18703214]

>>18703211
ok, start with eliot, he's tha GOAT

[Anonymous No.18703235]

>>18703191
Self evident for anyone well read

>>18703196
Joyce's and Pynchon's poetics far outdo what Eliot has to offer. Can't help you there. Obviously this is a breeding issue.

And yes the opening paragraph of The Recognitions is superior to Eliot's poetry. Not by accident either. Gaddis was inspired by Eliot and had the muscles and knowhow to bury him, carve and engrave his headstone all with love too.

And yes there is more in that opening chapter of The Recognitions than the whole of Eliot. Let alone the entire novel.

I'm not sure if you're unfamiliar with the works you're talking about or if you've skimmed through them or what, but this isn't a matter of opinion, anon.

[Anonymous No.18703254]

>>18703235
>Self evident for anyone well read

Well, even better to know more people can see the obvious.

[Anonymous No.18703268]

>>18703130
Blake
Shakespeare
Dante
Petrarch
Spenser
Sidney
Milton
Goethe
Swinburne
Virgil
Ovid
Melville
Chaucer
Coleridge
Tasso
Homer
Horace
Aristoto
Wyatt
Browning
Camoes
Housman
Freville
Hopkins
Schiller
Thomas Moore
Walter Scott
Southey
Gower
Dante Rossetti
Yeats
Lord Byron
Keats
Bauderlaire
Lucan
Tennyson
Shelley
Leigh Hunt
Walter Raleigh
Matthew Arnold
Drayton
Dryden
Edgar Allan
EE Cummings
John Wilmot
Henry Howard
Cowper
Andrew Marvell
Thomas Hardy
Alexander Pope
Eliot

[Anonymous No.18703277]

>>18703235
>Joyce's and Pynchon's poetics far outdo what Eliot has to offer. Can't help you there. Obviously this is a breeding issue.
>And yes the opening paragraph of The Recognitions is superior to Eliot's poetry. Not by accident either. Gaddis was inspired by Eliot and had the muscles and knowhow to bury him, carve and engrave his headstone all with love too.
>And yes there is more in that opening chapter of The Recognitions than the whole of Eliot. Let alone the entire novel.
>I'm not sure if you're unfamiliar with the works you're talking about or if you've skimmed through them or what, but this isn't a matter of opinion, anon.
Lol anon quit larping you sound absolutely ridiculous, anyone could spot a pseud a mile away. Your 1900s meme authors are not the peak of literature, read more and stop taking your own opinion seriously. I'm guessing an undergrad, hopefully you're not in grad school and thus too far gone.

[Anonymous No.18703286]

>>18703254
Idk how obvious it is. Dickinson's power is immediate. It's right there in the poems.

For Eliot, you need to read him and reread him and do the research and then read him again. And it's worth it. And it raises the quality of his poetry. But not to the heights that Emily reached.

[Anonymous No.18703295]

>>18703277
Your lack of argument and use of pseud says it all, cousin =)

Your opinion is foundationless. Just be glad this is anonymous.

[Anonymous No.18703316]

>>18703295
Yes you are a pseud, your refutation to the already retarded claim that TS Eliot is the second best poet being Joyce, Pynchon, and Gaddis is absolutely hysterical. You clearly have read very little and rely on 4chan memes and giving a fashionable response as the key to being well-read. As for a clarification, why does Ulysses outshine The Confidence Man? Why does Gravity's shitbow outshine say The World of William Clissold? Why does The Recognitions out-do say The Golden Bowl? Literature ended with modernism, don't spit out your bullshit posion anymore. There are only a few good authors, and pulp > realism.

[Anonymous No.18703328]

>>18703316
the waste land >>> anything you mentioned

[Anonymous No.18703344]

>>18703328
Okay, so once again spotted as not actually being a reader. If you cite the fucking Waste Land and not his plays or Four Quartets as the peak of Eliot you have zero idea what you are talking about.

[Anonymous No.18703364]

>>18703316
>zero examples
>still using pseud
Self-annihilating posts are the greatest. I'm going to assume that your post is out of anger, given the cussing.

>fashionable responses
Not very self aware, huh =)

>clarification
Not touching those examples. Seriously cuz, you have an issue with relying on other people's opinions and it's very, extremely, entertainingly obvious.

The god damned (heh) Golden Bough outdoes James, cousin. Let's assume the joke didn't go over your head =) It did. You can't explain it.

Your frustration could only come from unfamiliarity with the territory. And cuz, being upset only has you lapsing into what comes of as ESL.

[Anonymous No.18703370]

>>18703344
based dub and yes, it's weird... isn't it? Maybe anon just had a zoom class on it last semester

[Anonymous No.18703596]

>>18703277
you didn't read the recognitions?

[Anonymous No.18703610]

>>18703165
>Gaddis
What kind of shitter wrote this post?

[Anonymous No.18703614]

>>18703165
I just realized you put Pynchon there
AHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Anonymous No.18703646]

Gerard Manley Hopkins poetrymogs him

[Anonymous No.18703655]

>>18703614
>>18703610
the eternal anglo speaks

[Anonymous No.18703682]

"man, this poem ain't shit"
*20 mins later*

[Anonymous No.18703688]

>>18703655
And he speaks the truth. If you weren't baiting, it is safe to say you have very little idea of poetry.

[Anonymous No.18703727]

>>18703364
>And cuz, being upset only has you lapsing into what comes of as ESL.
The irony of this post...

[Anonymous No.18703739]

>>18703727
>>18703688
>he's coping this hard
cuz, it's okay to get meme'd on by your uni class
it happens

[Anonymous No.18703747]

>>18703739
You need to get to a uni first, underage fag.
You got memed by NEETS on /lit/.
AHAHAHAHA

[Anonymous No.18703748]

Nobody reaches his heights. Period. Show me a poem that matches "The Naming of Cats" by any person ever. You can't.
The waste land is decent too i guess idk

really tho read preludes then rhapsody on a windy night its incredible

[Anonymous No.18703755]

>>18703596
I read about 20-30 pages, absolutely horrific clunky tedious writing begging to be analyzed and patted on the back for being so smart and referential. Truly sickening, give me HG Wells, Ray Chandler, Conrad, Walter Scott, Melville, Thackeray or Bram Stoker any day of the week.

Somehow the bit of JR I read was even worse.

[Anonymous No.18703763]

>>18703747
>>18703748
>>18703755
This is extremely cringe multiposting cuz
No one has been fooled by fake consensus
4chan has your number cousin, always had
=(

I have to assume your insults have to do with yourself, given your ignorance

[Anonymous No.18703764]

>>18703755
JR is mainly dialogue with concatenating fillers of prose. Not disagreeing, but not what Gaddis was going for.

[Anonymous No.18703773]

>>18703763
Your pseudry and insistence on sticking to your headcanon has you seeing 3 people as one. Friend-o

[Anonymous No.18703780]

>>18703773
you're really on top of this britainbro, huh?

face it, you have no evidence... only weirdly cringe replies

you get that you're being laughed at, nicht wahr?

[Anonymous No.18703786]

>>18703130
Chaucer, Donne, Milton

[Anonymous No.18703804]

>>18703764
JR was annoying, yes it was different, but Recognitions has like 5 'look at me references' on the first page not to mention un-artistic un-fluid prose that I'd imagine a person trying to write smartly would sound. A headache to read.

[Anonymous No.18703816]

>>18703763
This is me, and genuinely not him - >>18703748
i find old possums book of practical cats to be the most fun i've ever had with eliot. If you disagree stop trying to be a cottonheaded ninnymuggins and take the stick out your ass.
The hollow men is his most perfect poem, prufrock and other observations is a great poetry collection (mr appolinax? Hysteria i think it's called - the prose poem? The saturday evening transcript is hilarious? Rhapsody? Portrait of a lady? La figla che piange?)
The waste land and other poems is decent, amazing highs but not perfect, plus his more metered shit is so hilariously stilted and bad, best ones are gerontion and the waste land obvs.
Hollow men is his most perfect poem, most concise and impactful with the fewest words that are supercharged with despair. Ash wednesday is a great thematic counterpoint to it, but much of it falls flat for me.
Murdee in the cathedral inspired some of the most fiery debates i've seen in a highschool lit class and got me into reading. Rereading later it's proven to be fantastic even when u get it.
Four quartets is phenomenal, really his best long poem despite little gidding as a whole towering over the rest as wholes imo. The other stuff rivals the waste land in beauty and depth. Little gidding is his best poem.

[Anonymous No.18703820]

>>18703804
wow, again:
you're really on top of this britainbro, huh?

face it, you have no evidence... only weirdly cringe replies

you get that you're being laughed at, nicht wahr?

additionally, I suppose, the introductory paragraph is extremely ironic and interesting given the rest of the novel... Honestly, I know you missed this, and as your litbro, I'm telling you: the rest of the novel is worthwhile and better than Eliot. So READ IT. You won't regret it. Especially if you like Eliot this much lol.

[Anonymous No.18703828]

>>18703816
what is this esl shit

[Anonymous No.18703833]

>>18703828
Filtering you bigtime, you cant read

[Anonymous No.18703848]

>>18703820
I don't like Eliot. Free-verse and modernism is a disgrace, his late poems (Four Quartets) and plays are good though. Family Reunion, Elder Statesman.

Sure, I can try it again one day, no guarantee I'll finish though.

[Anonymous No.18703860]

>>18703833
>The waste land and other poems is decent,
English speakers don't make this mistake, cuz.

If you are and did and have neurological problems, that's fine I guess. We can be friends. But Eliot doesn't match up to what's listed above by me and others. Not sure what your high regard for his is based on. Let's compare quotes. I'm sure I can crush Eliot. And I'm up for it.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18703867]

>>18703820
>Leave her alone and let her eat. She’s skin and bones!

[Anonymous No.18703893]

>>18703867
>>Leave her alone and let her eat. She’s skin and bones!
a fuckin bag of antlers

[Anonymous No.18703911]

>>18703828
>said the ESL

[Anonymous No.18703914]

>>18703860
That is the name of the fucking collection, retarded paco gonzalez

[Anonymous No.18703921]

>>18703804
i havent been paying much attention to this argument but i'll just chime in to say that the first chapter of The Recognitions is pure kino. it's even more kino when you finish the book and reread it because you realize how literally all of Wyatt's character and issues were foreshadowed and developed in that opening chapter itself, so many little details get followed up on as well

[Anonymous No.18703946]

>>18703914
oh no XD he didnt just post this

[Anonymous No.18703965]

>>18703893
>>18703860
>>18703820
someone has a type

[Anonymous No.18704217]

>>18703344
not that anon but the Waste Land although not generally considered his BEST work from the perspective of a reader in our times is most definitely the most influential and innovative. That poem changed the currents of poetry within his era and made it custom to follow eliot's and pound's formula of poetry for many years. Four Quartets was for sure the final development of his skill but the notoriety and influence The Waste Land is in itself enough reason to consider it his "best".

Don't know who mentioned it but someone here said Pound is better than eliot... and with that i'll take it you haven't read the former at all and have allowed yourself to be swept by the general consensus on here who are intimated by The Cantos. Pound was good but no more than that, when he hits he hits hard but when he whiffs its bad and displays the inconsistencies in his writing. Pound's actions and influence within the literary sphere of Europe will always outdo any of his poetics.

[Anonymous No.18704264]

>>18703139
>He doesn't know T.S, Eliot he doesn't even bother to look him up.

[Anonymous No.18704265]

>>18703682
Kek

[Anonymous No.18704275]

>>18703139
>He doesn't know TS Eliot and he doesn't even bother to look him up.

[Anonymous No.18704302]

>>18703130
You should read his essays. He sounds the trumpet of prophecy: the death of high taste in literature will lower the loftiness of the art so that the rabble may come into contact with its corpse. As a result, he decided to give to his work an ephemeral film of majesty to succour the few disciples of the muses, to allow them to find a bit of gold within the future heap of mud.

[Anonymous No.18704362]

>>18703165
>Dickinson
She is very good.
>Pynchon
Nvm, ur just some seething Jew.

[Anonymous No.18705284]

>>18703860
>hasnt read a full eliot collection
>reads that i call his more metered stuff stilted and bad and has no reply
>needs somebody to seethe at to feel validated
I feel like your assuming i'm people i'm not... maybe because i've read and understood more eliot than you, eh bud?

[Anonymous No.18705322]

>>18703316
>Why does Gravity's shitbow
As if it wasn't clear before, you lost big time and this post was the final nail in your proverbial coffin.

[Anonymous No.18705332]

>>18705322

[Anonymous No.18705346]

>>18705322
Lmao he's trolling. The whole "literature ended with modernism" thing is hilarious to me, specifically when he cites one of the most modern writers - melville.
Pynchon is a true pleb filter, he's simultaneously too smart and too retarded for humorless low iq faggots like him to get. Read slow learner too btw

[Anonymous No.18705352]

>>18704217
I’ve read all of pound and Eliot, aside from the complete cantos. Eliot is a lot better.
I don’t think it’s that innovative and dislike modernism and what came after. Why is ee Cummings not the most innovative of the era then?

[Anonymous No.18705362]

>>18705346
Melville is pre-modernism so is Henry James. Conrad is possibly modernism, but he’s pulp so is HG wells, so they’re fine

[Anonymous No.18705369]

>>18705352
Because he didnt go on to influence as many influential people like pound eliot or joyce. Pound's is obviously the largest influence because it encompasses eliot's and joyce's.

[Anonymous No.18705377]

>>18705362
>melville is pre-modernism
Have you read pierre or the confidence man? Pierre is literally a deconstruction, with more modern and even post modern elements than many early modern novels. Some elements of moby dick are straight modernism with the formal shifts. Melville isn't pre-modern, he's proto-modern.
I guess you'd saying don quixote and tristram shandy aren't postmodern at all, then? Not modern either?

[Anonymous No.18705388]

>>18705369
Okay but pound and Joyce are horrific and Eliot is only manageable plus his best work is his plays

>>18705377
Yes both brilliant.
I’m referring to time periods not style, I associate modernism with social realism. And the early 1900s. I prefer William Burroughs and Nabokov to any of modernism, Pynchon is post-post modernism

[Anonymous No.18705756]

>>18705388
>>18705377
the cringe itt is epic

[Anonymous No.18705846]

>>18705388
Yeah, i'm referring to modernism in terms of style, not the modern era. It is pretty cool to think about melville as laying the groundwork for modernism's style.
>pound and joyce are horrific
I think both are overrated too desu, but their highs match anything else in that era. Passages of ulysses are among the most beautiful i've ever read. Canto 1 by pound is incredible, but he's best at his most concise, when he has no time to flounder a good reflection or music with allusions.
>>18705756
Grow up faggot.

[Anonymous No.18705902]

>>18705846
not an argument

[Anonymous No.18705909]

>>18705902
Neither is "cringe"

[Anonymous No.18705990]

>>18703268
You ought to be hanged for putting Ovid before Homer.

[Anonymous No.18705994]

>>18705846
>Yeah, i'm referring to modernism in terms of style, not the modern era. It is pretty cool to think about melville as laying the groundwork for modernism's style.
Sure I just hate the main popular conception of modernism, like Hemingway. Conrad, Wells, Chandler, Stoker, Stevenson, and say Lovecraft are all 'modernism' to some extent too. I enjoy the genre (adventure, noir/detevtive, sci-fi, gothic/horror) to the social realists like Hemingway or Joyce or Faulkner (although I'm very very curious about later Faulkner's works), aside from Hamsun and Ford Ford who are probably the peak. Also, is Lowry modernism? He's good too, he actually has a book about Melville Lunar Caustic. Melville is sort of unique in his own-right desu, IDK if you can even call Pierre a novel, he's emulating Gnostic texts and those interlude essays are amazing. I always shill his genre/commercial work too, compare Israel Potter, Redburn, White Jacket, Piazza to the best of say Conrad and it's still great stuff. I've read his entire poetry as well, including the collection to his wife. I absolutely adore Melville. Melville's main influence it appears was on DH Lawrence, who is not great imo and I don't usually think of him at first. I'm still not sold on him.

Pound's highs I presume are his non-fiction, I've read all of Personae (1926) and if you refer to who he's referencing, say Browning, Swinburne, Villon, etc. I appreciate them all much more than Pound. Again, have not read all of the Cantos, and he has some working class satirical collection in the 30s that was in his LOA eddition that I enjoyed, but I think it's theoretical poetry not actual poetry.

>his most concise, when he has no time to flounder a good reflection or music with allusions.
Would love to see what you mean by this? Got a poem?

>Passages of ulysses are among the most beautiful i've ever read
NGL i could not finish Ulysses, I never read Part 3. I also loathed Dubliners and Portrait. Yes, parts of Ulysses are good, but he usually mars it with some joke or appeal to the reader, like when they're discussing Shakespeare and Mulligan keeps interuppting, or in Oxen of the Sun when he's doing drunk-speak and it's not real. The scene with Gerty in the park was good, but again once the gimmick is removed and you 'get it' it loses something. From what I've read of Finngeans, that is far better than the rest on sound alone.

[Anonymous No.18706025]

>>18703921
>Wyatt'
Thomas Wyatt reference I see, the entire thing is surface level references

[Anonymous No.18706036]

>>18703130
GOAT of what? modernism? overall? Both false
>>18706025
the end of reference is not inherently to finger the depths of obscure literature it's about elaboration & interconnection of the medium as one mythos

[Anonymous No.18706055]

>>18706036
>the end of reference is not inherently to finger the depths of obscure literature it's about elaboration & interconnection of the medium as one mythos
Wyatt isn't obscure and I agree, I just did not get the impression Gaddis was doing that.

[Anonymous No.18706082]

>>18706055
I mean the phrase of "Recognitions" is from clementine christian literature lol. It's more obvious in say JR due to its cosmos, I think, but he's fully at home integrating Wagner & Ravel & Marx puns & Madame Blavatsky or fragments of Carlyle poems blahblahblah

[Anonymous No.18706118]

>>18705909
sure it is... your lack of understanding to those who are literal EXPERTS in eliot is great

what you say means nothing

[Anonymous No.18706125]

>>18706082
>he skipped Plato
>he thinks Plato rhymes with Play-Doh
/lit/ rocks

[Anonymous No.18706794]

>>18703820
she forgot the bush