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/lit/ - Literature


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File: 630 KB, 1500x2318, shapes of stories.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18923426 No.18923426 [Reply] [Original]

>Shapes of Stories edition
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOGru_4z1Vc

For Prose:
>The Art of Fiction
>Story Genius: How to Use Brain Science to Go Beyond Outlining and Write a Riveting Novel (Before You Waste Three Years Writing 327 Pages That Go Nowhere)
>On Becoming A Novelist
>Writing Fiction: A Guide to Narrative Craft
>How Fiction Works
>The Rhetoric of Fiction
>Steering the Craft
>On Writing, Borges

For Poetry:
>The Poetry Home Repair Manual
>Western Wind: An Introduction to Poetry
>This Craft of Verse, Borges

Related Material:
>What Editors Do
>A Student's Introduction to English Grammar
>Garner's Modern English Usage

Suggested books on storytelling:
>The Weekend Novelist
>Aristotle's Poetics
>Hero With a Thousand Faces
>Romance the Beat

Traditional publishing
> Formatting manuscript
https://blog.reedsy.com/manuscript-format/
> Write a query
https://www.janefriedman.com/query-letters/
> Track your query
https://querytracker.net/

Other Resources
>General grammar/syntax/editing help
https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/purdue_owl.html
> When/where/how should I write?
https://jamesclear.com/daily-routines-writers
> What software should I write with?
https://self-publishingschool.com/book-writing-software-best/
> Amazon Publishing to make that KDP monie
https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/topic/G200635650
> Be like Fyodor and write serially
https://www.royalroad.com/
> Basic overview of the Screenplay format
https://screenwriting.info/

>Previously on /wg/
>>18900424

>> No.18923591

Can I get some help on how to write paragraphs describing scenery without being boring or repetitive.

>> No.18923600

>>18923591
Do you mind posting any excerpts so we can see where the tensions lie? If you are bored writing it, it will come off as boring to the reader, too.

>> No.18923681

>>18923426
From the way he explains this stuff in a video interview somewhere I always felt like he wasn't explaining this as "here, I am so smart, I have found the formula for stories" but as a way to say that the essence of a story is actually very simple and you are completely free to make something formulaic that "will make another million dollars" (as he said while he explained this). Given this dismissive tone on structure I think what he tried to say was that what really matters is that you have something meaningful to say in your story. He also had a very no-nonsense approach where he urged people to write as directly as possible. I think everything he said about this was to focus on substance rather than form.

>> No.18923738

>>18923681
>the essence of a story is actually very simple and you are completely free to make something formulaic
Yeah, I think that's right. He tried to adapt his idea that Native American stories follow similar shapes in his anthropological studies in a master's degree. It's interesting he chose to expand that to all stories, but I suppose that universalising it is true enough.
>I think everything he said about this was to focus on substance rather than form.
That's true. I should try that myself, since I tend to be a bit substanceless.

>> No.18923773

seconding a crit to this anon's piece >>18920935
i remember reading this and how it held my interest. that was months ago. finish it.

>> No.18924055

>>18923591
No. You will learn on your own so you can Make It.

>> No.18924131

>Adjective Cowards

Procne caterwauls,
Philomel sings shrilly,
Those leaves hiss obscenities,
This paranoia lingers,
My chest tightens,
Eyes in the forest lighten.

Teeth a-gnashin’, I sez:
If only you adjectival
Yellow-bellies would say it to my own face
My head ain’t screwed on right,
The things inside it, they ain’t true.

Frontier liquor feels fiery,
It ain’t good for consumption:
Boiled down tobaccy pipes
And a yeast colony.

>> No.18924229

Just a warning to anyone who wants to read Hero with a Thousand Faces.
It's from the perspective of a historian, not a writer. The way he generalizes classic story template is not a good guide for designing a story, but more looking into anthroplogy and why humans are attracted to certain ideas. If you try to follow the template too closely, the monomyth was not described by Campbell in a way that will make it satisfying. Good for history but you should still understand when to break its "rules" and what you can allow yourself to do.

>> No.18924746

How do you know if you have an idea for a story?

>> No.18925021

>>18924746
If there is a moment I think is cool enough to capture and write, I'll look into it and make an outline and see if the idea was cool enough to goad me into synthesizing lots of cool characters and scenes to support it. If there's more than enough things that I can bring along with the idea and I find the outline interesting, I'd go through with it.

>> No.18925032

>>18923591
One thing I’ve done, but I’d warn you against over-using, is to think of the environment as being alive in some way. Don’t describe the scene as an outside observer entirely - work your way out from a smaller, magnified (micro) portion of it. For instance, if it’s a dimly lit room, try and start from the lights/candles in your description, which is one of the first sensations you’d pick up on anyway IRL if you were in that same room. Then, despite the darkness, what are those lights illuminating? What draws the eye naturally anyway? Think like you’re controlling a camera of sorts and focusing on various things.

Why this doesn’t always work is that it can grow repetitive, but it’s good to break up your general style anyway. Give it a shot, see if you like it.

>> No.18925170

>>18923426

Hit a new slump. Hate my ideas and starting from scratch again. I hate this endless cycle

>> No.18925274

>>18925170
Is there any kernel from your work you appreciate or hate a little less? Maybe focus on that for the next go around. Eventually you’ll break the cycle anon, I believe in you.

>> No.18925288

>>18925170
Don't give up too soon. The shiny new idea will always get boringly familiar when you work with it long enough. The middle section of your story doesnt have to feel like its dragging on either. You have a chance to explore ideas or change characters before the final act. If you space things out, every chapter can have something incredibly important in it.

>> No.18925299

>>18923591
Read CM.

>> No.18925317

>>18923591
Related to this, can you point me to examples or good description? I find them so boring that eventually I ended up either reading more abstract fiction (e.g. Borges, Kundera) or even skipping descriptive parts altogether. To say nothing or all the weird words no normal person knows (lists of plants, architectonic features, and so on)

>> No.18925321

Can I write an introduction (or such) in first person as it would be a take from a journal or from a letter, before starting the actual story from first chapter told in third person? It would be letters written by someone told in first person, and then transition to the actual story in third person. Is that too weird? If I write the letters (before chapter 1) in cursive so it's more obvious it's written text by someone? It could be 20 pages or so, not a fan of having that many pages in cursive

>> No.18925346
File: 91 KB, 220x326, American_Psycho.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18925346

How do you all organize outlines and ideas in general?
I've started my rewrite in Scrivener and I like it for the most part, but I have chapter outlines in google doc - I feel like I need a spreadsheet for that. Meanwhile I end up writing random notes fucking everywhere and don't know how to organize them.

>> No.18925375
File: 205 KB, 600x518, 940.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18925375

Be honest folks is it shit?

The Crown of Colour
The Sun rose bright and constant in the east. The field was a deep emerald green, lined on each side by sharp slate grey walls of the valley in which it lay. Rain from the previous night had settled as mist at the roof of the crevice and hung like a waterfall not yet ready to move on the cliff edges above them.
The ground resembled more a thick sludge than earth and the horses struggled as the legion crept forward into the clearing. Monas looked uneasily towards Rex who rode ahead of the army, his horse seemingly oblivious to the state of the soil. Helmet tied to his saddle bag, the morning sunshine dancing across the golden rim of his deep blue chest plate and making his hair glow and hang, an inverted halo of the morning dawn. In the distance the red flags of Crator’s battalion grew larger, they too, on their own struggle through the field towards them.
When the Redgari army was close enough to see, and unfortunately smell, they were not led from the front by Crator. They formed a large tight rectangle, their red and black armors striking together in a random percussion. The armies continued their march, neither letting up. Rex grinned, smiling at the wall of men approaching knowing that this game of chicken was nothing but showmanship for the coming dance. Rex stretched out his right arm to signal a halt, in unison both groups came to a stop. The sound of both armies coming to a halt echoed up, around, and through the valley.

>> No.18925385

>>18925346
I make notes everywhere too. However, I make sure to compile them all into one google doc and have them there.

>> No.18925484

>>18925375
I think it would work as a script for an audiobook with a narrator with theatrical drama background.
The Sun rose! Bright and constant in the east. The field was deep emerald green, each side lined by sharp, slate gray, walls of the valley. Last night's rain has settled there as a mist, a white blanket over the root of the crevice.

>> No.18925548

>>18925375
The first part about the valley and the mist is unrelated to the second part about the legion. To me, seems out of place, I don't know.
There's some overdone explanation and unnecessary words. For instance:
>Rex stretched out his right arm to signal a halt, in unison both groups came to a stop. The sound of both armies coming to a halt echoed up, around, and through the valley.
You could just show how he signals and how the group halts. Don't need to say halt twice, it's awkward.

>When the Redgari army was close enough to see, and unfortunately smell,
>and unfortunately smell
Uh, what? No explanation for this?

>Rex grinned, smiling at the wall of men approaching knowing that this game of chicken was nothing but showmanship for the coming dance.
This was good until "knowing that this game of chicken was nothing but showmanship for the coming dance." It would be more interesting to later find out why he was so smug about it.

It's more fun to read and calculate one plus one than let the writer do the math for the reader, especially when the writer says something with no explanation and refuses to elaborate.
Sentence structures are a bit repetitive. Nearly every sentence starts with the subject like this:
>The Sun
>The field
>Rain
>The ground
>Rex grinned
>Rex stretched

Maybe experiment with different sentence structures, cut out some unnecessary words, don't tell stupid things. Definitely potential, just need to fix problems.

>> No.18925549

>>18925484
>I think it would work as a script for an audiobook with a narrator with theatrical drama background.
In my head Richard Poe is reading it.

>> No.18925558
File: 738 KB, 627x1000, A Hero Among Monsters.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18925558

I posted chapter 9.
https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/41979/a-hero-among-monsters/chapter/740397/chapter-nine-castles-within-castles

>> No.18925564

>>18925548
Thank you for the feedback anon, I will take it onboard.

>> No.18925585

>>18925346
Generally, it's all mental notes. What physical notes I do have are mainly all stored in Scrivener's project bookmarks.

>>18925375
Not shit, but it's a little purple prose.

>> No.18925733

anyone want to read the first five chapters of my novella and give me some feedback?
not able to pay, so I'm not looking for a line-by-line, just want to know if my story can even hold someone's attention

>> No.18925881

>>18925733
I'll read the first chapter

>> No.18925978

If anyone's interested in getting the most detailed critiques possible for their work, I launched snipcritics.com today. It's anonymous and the process is made in a way that the conversation isn't derailed. All reviews are shown on your work. I'm new in all this, I just wanted to make something artists (amateurs and pros) could use to improve their craft. I really want to help everyone achieve their potential. Please just give it a try. There are no cookies or any other type of sensitive data registered (only IP to ban illegal content like CP). I want to improve but I need a chance.

Sorry for the rant. I hope you try it out and give me feedback in this thread.

Snipcritics.com

>> No.18926032

>>18925346
I use two monitors, left side for story, and right side for notes to give me my broader goals that I'm trying to accomplish. Depending on the draft I will have charts to make sure I'm dropping plot critical details, themes, etc where I need them. I have a notebook to write stuff that comes to me when Im away. I plan on getting a better word processor like Scriv later.

>> No.18926141
File: 12 KB, 290x174, images.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18926141

Any advice for evoking disgust in a reader? Not moral outrage but like sickness/nausea.

>> No.18926195
File: 618 KB, 1000x1000, 1593583932683.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18926195

>almost midnight
>energy drinks and crisps
>ready to write the whole night
Let's fucking go anons, it's my night.

>> No.18926248

>>18925733

post it

>> No.18926259

Any Polish writer wants to exchange works and critiques?

>> No.18926263

>>18926195
I believe in you anon.

>> No.18926359
File: 282 KB, 470x1229, 1462120169588.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18926359

>>18925558
>One of Tad’s favorite pastimes, on the rare occasion he found himself with time to pass

>> No.18926410

How do I disabuse myself of this sense that I just have no ideas and therefore nothing to write.

>> No.18926444

>>18925375
Generally I would day it's a bit overwrought. You could cut the wordcount by 15-20% and lose basically nothing.
Specifically:

>lined on each side by sharp slate grey walls of the valley in which it lay
I would rephrase as
>sharp slate grey valley walls.

>Rain from the previous night
-
>The night's rain

>Helmet tied to his saddle bag, the morning sunshine dancing across the golden rim of his deep blue chest plate and making his hair glow and hang, an inverted halo of the morning dawn.
I'm thinking ESL? Obviously, morning dawn is redundant, so I would cut morning entirely. Also this sentence is list-y and for me it lost the imagery because of it. Maybe start the sentence with reference to the sun, and then go on about how it interacts with the man's armour and hair and so forth. It just gives the sentence more shape.

>they were not led from the front by Crator. They formed a large tight rectangle, their red and black armors striking together in a random percussion.
Firstly, armors is not the proper plural, but it hardly matters. You lead with the position of the character Crator, but it goes nowhere. He doesn't get mentioned or even referred to again in that paragraph. The second sentence seems to be a bit disjointed, too. The first half is about the shape of their formation, but the second is about the sound their armour (or shields?) is making. I think I'd solve it like this:
>they were not led from the front by Crator. Instead, he was concealed somewhere deep in a large, dense rectangle of red and black, rumbling (or whatever verb you like) forward with the percussion of tight packed armored bodies.

>The armies continued their march, neither letting up
Why?

>Rex grinned, smiling at the wall of men approaching knowing that this game of chicken was nothing but showmanship for the coming dance. Rex stretched out...
The second use of the character's name is redundant. It's clear that he's still the subject, so you can use He.

>> No.18926453

>>18925558
>https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/41979/a-hero-among-monsters/chapter/740397/chapter-nine-castles-within-castles

typo in final line

>> No.18926559

>>18926453
Thanks. Fixed it.
>>18926359
I'm sorry.

>> No.18926800

God I love being experienced in screenwriting so much it's unreal
Every time I get to dialogues I just write it in one go without thinking and it's great anyway

>> No.18926943

>>18925881
>>18926248
okay
>https://ghostbin.com/paste/r5uIU
>https://ghostbin.com/paste/O7HUb
>https://ghostbin.com/paste/c2SMf
here's the first three chapters. I'll take any crits/advice, but again I'm looking more to see how readable everything is together, so ultimately I want to know if you enjoy or even want to keep reading. if you'd like more chapters I'd love more of this kind of input.

>> No.18926955

>>18926800
Any dialogue tips? I was told its good to look into literary dialogues to improve, some authors are great at it.

>> No.18927003

>>18926800
Is it opposite day already?

>> No.18927265

How did you decide what kind of stories you wanted to right? I’ve talked to someone who read almost exclusively fantasy so it seemed only natural to write stories along those lines, but how would you decide if you read and identify with a whole variety of stories?

>> No.18927328

Reminder that men are physically incapable of focusing on more than two things at once
If you want to listen to background noise while you write, fine, but ONLY one thing, have nothing else available to you if you want to be productive

>> No.18927385

>>18927265
I've been wanting for years to write about space fleets fighting each other in 3d Napoleonic tactics and characters wondering if all the blood spilled is worth fighting for crumbling ideologies. I couldn't find anything that catch my attention so I took it upon myself. It's like rule34 of writing: if it doesn't exist write it yourself. I wanted to essentially write what I want to read. And that ended up being star-crossed space lesbians fighting a fruitless war with no end in sight.

>> No.18927386

>>18927328
why do you say men?
are women capable of that?

>> No.18927399

>>18927265
>fantasy
isn't really a genre, per se. its more of a location with its own tropes. typically more medieval, roving bands of orcs instead of, say, niggers, magic of some kind, high amounts or low but never zero.
the story you're writing in a fantasy setting can take many forms. you can do romance, a thriller, a war story, a murder mystery, whatever.
sci-fi is similar. a location. more futuristic rather than medieval, "science" instead of magic, ravenous alien bugs instead of niggers.

>> No.18927401

>>18925346
Notecards. I like it because they can be moved around or edited easily.

>> No.18927426

>>18923591
Does it have to be paragraphs? I find it good to sprinkle bits about scenery throughout which affect the characters or add to the story.

>> No.18927429

>>18927265
Write what you wish existed for you to read.

>> No.18927468

Long live the king
Lanterns twinkle in the Guangzhou river
Upside down, a log floats past

I am not sure about this one. I made the essence up to empress a normie so it still has a lot of cliches. The point is, I guess, that a log cannot be upside down, so in fact that's a corpse.

>> No.18927487

>>18927429
That’s sort of the problem. That is very broad.

>> No.18927493

>>18927399
Right, but that’s why I said “type”. As far as I can tell, most authors have a certain “type” of story which they tend to write.

>> No.18927506

>>18927468
I'd change it to the following to make a haiku:

Long, long live the king,
Lanterns twinkle in the Guangzhou River,
Upturned, a log floats.

>> No.18927518

>>18927386
Women can multitask, men have better spatial reasoning

>> No.18927526
File: 6 KB, 200x200, gch.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18927526

>>18927506
>a log floats, upturned.

>> No.18927532

>>18927526
Makes me think of shitting now.

>> No.18927539

>>18927506
Hey, that's amazing!

Personally I like the 'long live the king's because it implies the previous king is dead, but now that I think of it there is no longer any reason to tie it to china so harshly. I still don't have a substitute sentence for the second line, though.
Your version is even better for a Chinese, because it makes the corpse just a corpse, less implies the king, which is more zen or something.

>> No.18927560
File: 61 KB, 624x624, gch2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18927560

>>18927532
>floats, upturned, a log

>> No.18927564

>>18927506
Nice. Could you write a 5-7-5 haiku about some season? a haiku that snaps a moment in time, shows a picture?

>> No.18927593

>>18927564
I'm no expert on Basho but I've read a bit of him. I'll try emulate him and maybe Li Po's simple imagery...

>Autumnal Rain
Clouds gather above,
The heavens pour libations,
And leaves fall like rain.

>> No.18927602

>>18927539
Just tweak it here and there, happy you like it. It's good to bounce poetry ideas off people because poets have to be masters of effect and whatnot. Post more of your work, anon.

>> No.18927667

>>18927602
I don't have none, I just went thru a phase of thinking I'm awfully clever and posting poems I thought up at the spot.
Now that I'll like to actually digest through a poem and write and rewrite if I do write one I find there are other things to do with my time. I just thought I came up with a neat one this time and wanted to share.
I thought about the upside down line while floating upside down in the pool in the party, and the Chinese connection because the og was something like:
Chop wood, carry water
The lanterns twinkle In the Guangzhou river
The bottle is passed
Carry wood, chop water

>> No.18927940

>>18927493
you write the kind of story you'd like to read. presumably because it hasn't been told or hasn't yet been told well enough. getting bogged down I opted to write a "gamelit" novel - even though I've read maybe a handful of gamelit novels ever and they've all been mediocre at best I much prefer straight fantasy - in a medieval fantasy setting because it allowed for me to have multiple different albeit connected plotlines occurring at the same time, and it let me have a huge amount of freedom as far as words and phrases at my disposal that a normal fantasy setting simply wouldn't. It also permitted a certain existential framing that I wanted the story to have.
As far as my future projects I've got the sequel for what I'm currently writing, as well as a children's story in the vein of Raold Dahl involving servant type robots in a quasi futuristic setting. Definitely touching on horror. MC I'm thinking will be a 10 year old boy, his 8 year old sister suffers an accident. The school he's in is almost entirely monitored by machines. I'm thinking 60k words for that one. Need to make it tight. My current project ended up going on forever and the sequel to it will too.

>> No.18927942

>Everything going smoothly with writing and editing
>prose and story progression are great throughout
>entire ending planned out neatly
>"Okay. Finally time for the last chapter and wrapping up the ending."
>Brain goes on permanent hiatus

Why does this keep happening to me?

>> No.18928045

Any good Booktubers to send my book to once I publish? I imagine you guys probably have some favorites.

>> No.18928077

>>18928045
I don’t think that’s how it works, most booktubers I am aware of pick a book based on pre-existing fan bases

>> No.18928113

>>18928045
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqmbpSJ-1iE

Try this guy. He's seems to be reviewing the books from here.

>> No.18928136

>>18928113
>review uploaded today
>32 subs
>try this guy
don't shill your channel here, you talentless faggot.

>> No.18928159

>>18928136
There's no need for that attitude. The whole point of these threads are to help writers. This guy has made several videos which demonstrates more talent than your meanspirited comment.
>>18928113
Thank you.

>> No.18928171

Why do I love torturing my own characters so much?

>> No.18928184

>>18928171
because its entertaining. you are doing the reader a favor as well as the characters when they emerge on the other side of the crucible

>> No.18928195

65,000 words into my novel! Let's go boys!

>> No.18928201

>>18928113
Holy based

>> No.18928222

>>18928113
>>18928159
>>18928201
This samefagging is horribly pathetic

>> No.18928235

>>18928195
Nice job, anon!
Just passed 100k here.

>> No.18928242

>>18928222
I don’t have the slightest idea how to record YouTube videos. Why are you even here if you’re so bitter? These threads are meant to help other anons. Clearly this is not what you’re interested in.

>> No.18928245

I have an idea for a really compelling character. You see, he’s gay.

>> No.18928261

>>18928245
Turn him into a gay girl instead and I'd find that compelling.

>> No.18928272

>>18928245
And on top of that he was turned into a werewolf as a child. The curse laid dormant in his system until adolescence, and once released he went on a murderous rampage totally unaware of what he'd done. Then he gets locked into a mental asylum and put on a cocktail of drugs and other sedatives that ends up suppressing his curse for many years. Then one day years in the future he is independent and living on his own until he meets a mysterious stranger who shows interest in him. But its actually the werewolf who originally bit him. They fuck and go on a killing spree together.

>> No.18928279

>>18928272
Gays can’t be werewolves. Werewolves are evil and gay people can’t be evil.

>> No.18928288

>>18928242
dude you’re using the same words.
Just stop; your link is here, I’m sure people will view it, this is embarassing and insulting to the intelligence of those who would otherwise subscribe to your channel

>> No.18928290

>>18928279
>and gay people can’t be evil
Exactly why portraying them as evil would be such a nuanced concept.

>> No.18928301

>>18928113
Why can’t you pronounce Cherokee properly? You say “Churro Key”

>> No.18928306

>>18928113
I’m amazed how F Gardner actually managed to meme himself into being an author. Is there any way one could learn from that and replicate it? I have no idea how I’m going to market my book. I might self publish it. But I’m worried about the competition. Is it possible it can sell if I simply write a good book?

>> No.18928315

>>18928306
You need to shill yourself in discord and other writing communities. “Gardner” only used this site as one of many for Their tactics.

>> No.18928353

>>18928315
I’m in a server with Gardener. He hardly even talks about his books. He mostly talks about retarded conspiracies.

>> No.18928447

>>18928353
ok Gardner, shut the fuck up anytime you feel like it

>> No.18928479

>>18928447
Stop seething you pseuds. Maybe if you actually wrote and not jerk yourself at the thought of being a writer, maybe you’ll write your novel.

>> No.18928538

>>18928479
Oh shut up.
You post so opaquely— you’d have to be a moron NOT to recognize your vernacular and posting sryle.
Just give us a rest for Christ’s sake. Fun fact: others are like you and finishing up novels they hope to advertise here. Maybe you should actually practice this comradely you preach and read and support others work and not just use us as a platform to advertise your own

>> No.18928541

Roast my poem please.


It's just not worth the fear:

Oh, she was a fine young thing

With red hair and green eyes,

And if you saw her walking down the street

You'd be sure she was a dyke.

But oh, she was a fine young thing,

And I loved her in my own way,

And if you saw her walking down the street

You'd know that I still do.

And you might say, "'There go another girl"

Who's gone a little queer,

Oh, the shame of it, the shame of it,

She'll be a laughingstock."

And you might say, "Oh, there go another man"

Who's gone a little queer,

Oh, the shame of it, the shame of it,

It's just not worth the fear.

>> No.18928553

>>18928541
A poem is imagery or compelling prose.
This is neither.
Reads like a virgin's slampoetry projection about how dudebros talk and act

>> No.18928610

>>18928447
Rofl. So you’re accusing that one guy of being that youtuber and the other anon of being gardener himself?

>> No.18928624

I GOT A JOB OFFER!!!

now I can leave /wg/ forever, for I will be too busy making money, goodbye neetdom writing and shitposting on 4chan

>> No.18928628

>>18928624
What is the job?

>> No.18928698

>>18928628
Lower level hospital manager. The interviewer told me that the last manager walked off the job, they have no nursing manager, no meals/nutrition manager, nurses and EMT have quit in droves. This desperation is perfect because now even a neet loser with no experience like myself can finally compete and get a job. I've been making $50 a month with writing and I really need a better career

>> No.18928725

How tf to make your book shorter? Mine is on track to be 400k words.

>> No.18928735

>>18928725
Make it as long as you want unless you're seeking traditional publishing. Hell mine is presented as one work even though its 2 volumes long @ 326k words, and its like barely halfway into the first Act of the story.

>> No.18928738

/wg/, I need advice with a scene

one of my characters has been struggling her whole life with mental illness and feelings of inadequacy over it. At one point in the story she gets her hands on a two doses of panacea but holds onto them because she thinks someone else will need them more, even as she's spiraling into a mental breakdown. During the final battle she swallows a dose because she's useless in her current mental state, giving her a sudden rush of power but then she vomits it back up when she gets kicked in the stomach. She spends the second half of the battle trying to find and take the other half but when the MC, who is her love interest gets impaled she's forced to use the last dose on him

I'm not sure how to depict this scene in a way that makes it clear what a sacrifice this is to her without making her look incredibly selfish

>> No.18928768

>>18928738
Just fucking write, christ, how hard is it to do that, you absolute idiot.

>> No.18928802

>>18928738
why is this a sacrifice to her, beyond a general "imma just save this potion for emergencies" meme from video games?

>> No.18928805

I put in 4k words last couple hours. Now do I keep going while the brainthinker's firing on all cylinders, or chill and not force it or burn out on it?

I definitely need some food.

>> No.18928808

>>18928738
Write it like a black comedy desu

>> No.18928827

>>18928479
Like clockwork. Unfortunately.

>>18928538
First off that is not the proper usage of "Vernacular." I think you mean "Lexicon." Stop your bitter jealous spamming.

>> No.18928844

>>18928768
> nooooo you can't ask for tips on writing on a writing general
shut up fag

>> No.18928850

>>18928844
Here's my tip: Just write.

>> No.18928851

>>18928768
not useful advice retard

>>18928802
when she took the first dose she felt like she wasn't a brain-damaged burden for the first time in her life, and then when she barfed that feeling vanished, leaving her hollow. She believes that in that bottle is the cure to everything she's hated herself for for as long as she's been alive, and it's a chance she may never get again

in truth though, the panacea didn't fix her brain, there wasn't anything wrong with her, and it showed in the fact that when she took it, she basically became superhuman for a limited period of time. She knows that deep down but she's terrified of going back to the way she was, thinking of herself as sub-human even though she's not

>> No.18928861

>>18928541
A poem is linguistic masturbation.
This is that.
Reads like most poems.

>> No.18928869

>>18928738
It's okay for a character to be selfish. Unless you want the reader to think she's absolutely perfect, there's nothing wrong with that, especially if she does the right thing regardless. Her thoughts can be selfish but her ultimate actions selfless and the actions override the thoughts.

>> No.18928881

>>18928245
I'm writing a book about a gay abuser who is only attracted to very young men and manipulates them into fucking him for money then he seethes and ruins their lives when they leave him for women

>> No.18928948

>>18928861
>>18928553
Intresting. I got GPT-3 to generate this.

>> No.18929235
File: 655 B, 56x48, tile_tn02d.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18929235

Book in progress, by and large on physics-aware cooking, overwhelmingly most in Russian. Picture there left was chosen as its cover, drawn by me at a differing endeavor. Theme aside I classify the transpiring as a real-life megastructure involving molecules and social effects alike. Starting point was pemmican-alike meat, and I came prepared.
I like pngzip format of self-presentation, and the link is up here.
https://www.mediafire.com/view/92r8wfjfkdr12yq
Can be opened in file manager internal of say 7-zip.
There are two previous books, I consider finished and done. First I classify an Impromtu, second a Groundwork. Both not the point. Impromtu one gets corrected in a very significant manner over the course of the Megastructural one.
Here are two links, also pngzips.
https://www.mediafire.com/view/e04ozb4qv9r44l7
https://www.mediafire.com/view/cb5kbgjxr2pt7tb
Very rarely texts do overlap, mostly they don't, overwhelmingly mostly they are in Russian.
I am rather fond of the picture, it actually makes sense in the context of all three the books, first and third-in-progress mostly however.
Have a nice read, nevermind.

>> No.18929379

>>18928735
are there any small publishing houses that accept doorstoppers from first timers?

>> No.18929738

>>18929235
What does this post mean. Be clear

>> No.18929898
File: 64 KB, 304x274, 1626842371999.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18929898

>finally hitting the climax of my novel
>it all has to be perfect because this is what it's all been leading up to

>> No.18929906

Today.

I finish.

I finish another load of 10k and force you all to suffer knowing someone out there is reading consistent 10k+ chaps.

>> No.18929951

how do you structure a novel? How much pages do you spend on this part and how much on this part?

>> No.18929973

>>18929898
>Have beginning around 50k words
>Have the end around 30k words
>No idea how to make the middle

Help me Niggerman I'm going MAD

>> No.18930006

>>18927265
For me I had things I wanted to say about history, but I didn't only want to write historical fiction because it doesn't get all the points across. So the first story I started with Science Fiction because it lets me look at a future scenario and what it implies about human nature. Even for the historical fiction that I'd like to do next, one of the topics is in a time period rarely covered by fiction that I've found, the other covered a little bit more but I'd like to dramatize those as much as I can with dark and dreadful mood. I'd like that mood creep into the normalcy of the situation as kind of the awakening moment where characters realized the they don't have the power to stop what is happening. So really a lot of these genre and setting decisions came from asking questions like:
>where must this take place to make a case for this idea?
>this one needs to be about learning about what your nation used to be, I'll set that in a nation being reconstructed
>this one needs to be about a revelation of what your nation is, I can set this during the fall of that civilization
>this one needs to be about unchanging human nature, I need this in the future to explore the logical consequences of these assertions
I'm still starting out so I want to remain flexible on the genres of story as I'm not sure what my voice sounds best as either. But I think you can go to different genres and still keep a similar voice.

>> No.18930059

>>18929951
Depends how long the novel honestly, and the subject matter/plot, the arc of your characters, etc.

>> No.18930068

>>18929951
Here's a link for general advice but as far as structure of the acts might depend on what you're doing. I was writing a 5 part tragedy with Anticipation, Dreaming, Frustration, Nightmare and Destruction as the underlying changes in the story, but your chapters need to be analyzed as scenes with particular purposes. This is a good, longrunning podcast for advice but some of their episodes are retarded.

https://writingexcuses.com/2017/10/01/12-40-structuring-a-novel/

>> No.18930215
File: 73 KB, 180x237, 1539397404294.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18930215

>Finish my webnovel on Honeyfeed for the contest
>Tell my close friends to read it, or fuck at least click through it and skim
>46 chapters, 4 pages ish each, should be 200 views per person because of the stupid way HF works
>mfw I asked like 10 people to do this
>mfw I only got 300 views instead of 2000, and 200 of those were from someone unrelated who actually did read the whole thing
>mfw not a single fucking one of them pulled up the god damned link

>> No.18930254

Tomorrow will mark two full weeks since I finished my manuscript and began editing it. This is boring. I don't feel like I'm making any progress. Should I just try to send it someplace?
>>18930215
Guess that shows how "close" your "friends" really are to you.

>> No.18930326

>>18930254
Are you thinking about putting an ad here when it's done? I'm not sure what the hidden cost of doing that is, do people get harassed or anything?

>> No.18930330

>>18923426
Beginning to write and writing a lot in one session is really tough for me. Maybe flash fiction and prose fiction is just what I'll stick with. Novels and big Tomes don't really interest me.

Anyone else feel the same way? I think Lish said somewhere in an interview that writers lacking in stamina and plagued with fatigue are just weak physically. Apparently Delillo could run like six miles every day and McCarthy obviously was a big guy out in the country all day.

>> No.18930351

>>18930326
>putting an ad here
No, my book isn't even in English. If I ever get it published I will be sure to post pictures of it though.

>> No.18930374

>>18926259
Sure, that could be great.

>> No.18930424

>>18930330
Shorter stories allow you to focus on less. Novels require you to dovetail setting, characters, ideas and events and it can get convoluted. Some of the best stories are shorter ones but they can be harder to gain readership from a practical perspective. You do need to write for your artist side somewhat so if you wanna stay focused on a story about 1 dominant thing then thats okay to do.

>> No.18930519

>>18930068
thanks, will check it out

>> No.18930535
File: 1.76 MB, 4000x2248, 1610746628342.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18930535

>>18924229
Ty.

>> No.18930680

>>18930374
Hey, that's great.
[email protected]

I can make a discord account if that's what you prefer, I do not have one.

>> No.18930896

>>18928881
>for money
he needs to get them addicted to crystal meth. that's what happens irl. and once they've been buggered they have a tough time admitting to themselves how wrong it is esp because of the meth and the spiral of drugs and debauchery and AIDS continues

>> No.18930904

>>18923426
Should add the Art of the Short Story to the prose list.

>> No.18930905

>>18930535
cool hemingway

>> No.18931188

Any good resources for writing stageplays and screenplays?

>> No.18931237

>>18926141
I asked something similar last thread. Use more oppressive phrasing, i.e instead of saying something is "sticky" say it clings to your fingers

>> No.18931247
File: 56 KB, 640x640, 8qjvo.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18931247

Help I'm retarded
If I'm sending a manuscript to a publisher, do I put my contact info into the manuscript or into the e-mail or both?

>> No.18931777

>>18931247
Just put it in both. I have heard some publicists and editors, the more busy ones, tend to throw it into the trash if they get sidetracked and cant find the email the manuscript is attached to and dont feel like looking back through everything. Kinda dumb but they have dozens of books a year so pls understand. They may have clear submission preferences listed online too.

>> No.18932030

>>18930680
don’t know if you noticed, but I sent you an e-mail. I don’t have discord either, so let’s stick to that.

>> No.18932148

>>18932030
Okay, I'll send you a message when I'm home. See you soon.

>> No.18932321

What you writing tonight anons?

>> No.18932348

>>18932321
My novel! It's pretty fun. At least to me. What are you writing, anon?

>> No.18932353

>>18932321
Nothing.
How do I rekindle my will to do art? I've given up on everything. I just think "what's the point". I don't want to publish or show anything to anyone. I've completely lost all my enthusiasm and my desire to share things with people. I cannot see much value in things that I have to come recognize as a waste of time. All I do will never reach anyone so why bother?
I have tried to change hobbies into something productive that would give me physical results for my efforts, and it is very rewarding but I am always drawn back to the arts. I feel empty without but I hate that all I can do with what I make in the arts is give it to people who largely don't care.

>> No.18932370

>>18932348
Revising my latest short story.

>>18932353
You might get through it anon. Maybe try shrooms? You can do it.

>> No.18932384

>>18932321
Analyzing chapter 2 and 3, second draft of a first novel. It has scifi and horror in it but I'm approaching it with slightly literary style to explore ideas more seriously.

>> No.18932448

>>18932353
For me, the more I think about an idea, almost neurotically, new possibilities appear and almost like a primal urge to scream when you are afraid, when I have an idea I desperately want to start outlining or writing scenes and seeing where it goes.
So go back to that source material or tangential material and see if it provokes you. Do writing exercises. Practice oblique strategies / lateral thinking. There's something out there that hasnt been done, even if its an old story in a new voice and only (You) can do it. You may already have ideas. Theyre those big sweeping statements about the world, and with the right symbolism for those ideas to dramatize them, you can take any idea an turn it into a monster, a force of nature, a culture, or just a man.

>> No.18932451

>>18932370
It's not a creative problem. I have a ton of ideas I want to work on and when I believed that it meant something I had no issue working on things. But I'm just tired of sinking hours and hours into a void. Partly I believe I'm just no good at this but mostly I think people aren't interested. The internet is all children now, not saying this in spite but I really feel out of place. I feel old and out of touch. When I work on a craft and I get a finished thing at the end I feel so satisfied and proud but it's not the same thing.

>> No.18932468

>>18932448
It's not an idea problem or "staring at the blank page" problem, I've honestly never had this kind of issue. It's all about "what am I doing this for". I have no answer for it.
Anyway I'll stop posting about this, I don't want to monopolize the thread with whining.

>> No.18932507

>>18932451
>feel old and out of touch
I'm 33 in a few months. Not so old but I know what you mean. What keeps me going is I want someone else to feel what I feel. It's validating that I'm not alone in how I feel about the story.

>> No.18932585

>>18932507
Same age, and yeah that was my drive. I wanted to commune with someone who saw things like I did. I dunno, I guess it all boils down to yet another leap of faith but I don't have the energy anymore. I have too much awareness that I'll sink months into something and nothing will echo back to me as always. Sucks.

>> No.18932587

>>18932321
Finishing chapter 2, and probably starting 3, of my novel.

>> No.18932616

I haven't edited my story in a week. I finished my first draft at 130k, took a week off, edited for 3 days, then took another week off. Fuck.

>> No.18932750

Do you ever have this very special story and write this story every day and you can’t keep away from it because if you don’t it keeps haunting you until you’ve finished it. I don’t. I feel i write this and that and i’m waiting for such story to emerge. Until IT comes, I’m only practicing for THE story. Will it come for me? I don’t know. Sometimes i’m desperate. Am i missing something?

>> No.18932848

Is it okay for my story to involve a society of only males but not get into gay stuff or will that be considered gay erasure or something?

>> No.18932863
File: 168 KB, 700x1094, aBx4G3P_700b.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18932863

>>18932848

>> No.18932899

>>18932321
Nothing, finished another chap earlier about half 3? Now I am just looking for Fantasy RPG's to play.

>> No.18932914

>really want to write my story
>it'd best be told in a very specific format through a specially designed website
>can't into html
Fuck

>> No.18932919

>>18932750
You may have to write to find your voice. Write different things you like and eventually your voice resonates strongly, and people might notice it even before you do.

>> No.18932925

>>18923426
>dicken's alternate ending
What.

>> No.18932962

>>18932321
I’ll keep working on chapter 23.

>> No.18932993
File: 114 KB, 600x318, 1626270515038.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18932993

>>18932925
>mfw realize my story is man in a hole but inverted on the X axis
It's like getting out of a bad situation, recovering, only later to discover you will inevitably be ensnared again.

>> No.18932997

>>18932321
Nothing, we don't write anything here.

>> No.18933074
File: 132 KB, 1600x1200, 1618230244286.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18933074

>>18932321
The note. You know the one.

>> No.18933085

>Released chapter 40 after almost 9 month hiatus
Time to keep up the writing.

>> No.18933091

>>18928861
If poetry is linguistic masturbation, then writing prose and longer form is just edging.

>> No.18933113

>>18933091
Makes sense. The nut after edging is always better than the nut of just hammering away like a monkey

>> No.18933195

>>18933074
Make sure to check your punctuation.

>> No.18933678

>>18923426
Are there any guides on writing which date back to early 19th century or earlier?

>> No.18933715

>>18933678
Poetics by Aristotle is literally over 2000 years old

>> No.18933752

>>18932321
I was planning to try for a chapter of my sci-fi novel, but I spent all day at work thinking about a fantasy idea and I'm fighting the urge to do a short story for it.

>> No.18933817

>>18933752
If you really have to, write a brief outline that captures the ideas you have so far and save it for later. If you happen to wonder about it randomly, update the outline. I have at least 4 or more books worth of outlines, but I will tackle each of them in order.

>> No.18933840

>>18932030
>>18932148
Sorry for the late reply, just sent you a message.

>> No.18933844

>>18933817
This. My Documents is replete with things from outlines to just one sentence ideas. Write it down for later my dude.

>> No.18933864

>>18932321
Nothing. Still on my hiatus for at least 2 more weeks. Will start writing my third volume/start of chapter 93 then.

>> No.18933941

Critique

https://pastebin.pl/view/286f7d66

>> No.18933963

>>18933715
I was in search of something more 'recent' that could enlighten me on how to write like the classics. Should I just read more about literary theory like Poetics and then the "greats" to get some guidance and inspiration?

>> No.18933999

>>18933963
you may genuinely believe it's legitimate research but to an outsider it comes across as nothing but procrastination

I've been there

>> No.18934247

>>18933844
>>18933817
That doesn’t even respond to his request. You people are without brains.

>> No.18934332

>>18934247
What request?

>> No.18934602

>>18934247
I did answer it, I told him to resist the urge to write the fantasy story but still save the ideas for later. He should keep writing the story he's working on if he can finish it.
>>18933963
There were lots of Victorian letter writing guides when that was popular, but as far as telling stories, it may be easier to deconstruct stories from the era you are thinking about. If you want it to sound old, you should pay attention to your dictionary when words got introduced into the language, or at least when the concept was new. If you avoid anachronisms, that is half the battle. The rest is mimicking the word choice and sentence structure of things written at that time, or at least the style of the translations is acceptable. If you want to be more rich you will have to understand the culture and beliefs a bit more, as well as what kinds of concerns they had on a day to day basis.

>> No.18934618

>>18932321
No idea. I feel creatively paralyzed at the moment. I can’t get this idea that “I have no ideas out of my head” and I’m really running low on sleep.

>> No.18934622

>>18933085
Good luck with that. Hiatuses are a bitch.

>> No.18934626

>>18933941
It's a little dry. Sentences often just sort of impart their information and leave without a lot of impact. Try to find a less matter of fact way of stating things.
Also the longer medieval style run on sentences are difficult to follow in places, partly for the same reason. I guess just read them back to yourself aloud and try to pick up where the writing interrupts itself.

>> No.18934705

>>18934618
My advice is to start from one idea you find compelling idea and ask simple questions about the idea, and take different lines of inquiry. Don't force it into a story just yet. Let the ideas permeate as a kind of foundation of beliefs that can build your theme, and it will become apparent which characters, events etc you need to represent those beliefs. That is how my first story came to me.
>Where is all the data in the internet going?
>Is it building something? Is that thing alien, or is it us?
>Oh, transhumanists see humans as simply data, and patterns
>What if I thought of humanity as data instead?
>If I look at historical patterns, will I learn something about this data?
>Can this data actually transcend, or will it always just be data?
>What technology will it use in its attempt to change? What will never change?
>Are there symbols this data uses from the past so that it can be comprehended by outsiders?
So on and so forth until I am flooded with scifi, horror and existential philosophy. I've had to ask myself a lot of uncomfortable questions in the process and while you don't need to do that to bring tension to a story, it can be valuable.

>> No.18934771

>>18934705
>My advice is to start from one idea you find compelling idea
Ha! You underestimate the severity of my block. Or maybe I understate it. Either way, you get the point.

>> No.18934786

Is this suffiecient for a book description?

>A mind-bending adventure set in a isolated military research base deep within the Sonora desert. Follow Charles, one of dozens of soldiers locked inside as they struggle to combat an artificial intelligence. Full of fast paced action and theoretical science, the story examines the modern struggle with the technologies that dominate our lives today.

First novella so go easy

>> No.18934807

>>18934771
>Either way, you get the point.
That you don't write?

>> No.18934845

>>18934786
I swear I saw this exact same description posted before, but I can't remember where.

>> No.18934854

>>18934786
Would look good on the back, I think it hits enough ideas so long as those are the main ones and that's the audience you want. I'm assuming you're self-publishing, as I think publishers and their publicists would help decide what goes on the cover.
If you are going the traditional route, then it's good to have a "comp title" which is just (X story + Y story) so people will immediately get a feel for what you are going for. As long as you don't imply that you want the Harry Potter audience. Publishers get upset with that. They want a more target audience and don't count on almost everyone in the world reading your book.
You also want to describe the story in one sentence, an "elevator pitch" that takes just a couple sentences like what you wrote, and then of course a longer presentation.

>> No.18934856

>>18934845
Might have been here

>> No.18934881

Tips for writing action scenes?

>> No.18934909

>>18934854
Ya I had more convoluted by they felt too bombastic. The problem is that the base plot is kinda secondary to the existential bits but I don't know how to talk about those without going to far. I was trying for something short and concise. The novella is called The Void which I like but maybe its not descriptive enough

>> No.18934914
File: 9 KB, 587x209, file.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18934914

>>18925978
>>18925978
you sure you want this popping up to whoever visits the site?

>> No.18934928

>>18934807
No. You’ve missed the point I guess.

>> No.18934934

>>18923426
any books/tips on essay writing? Trying to unlearn the standard "introduction, three body paragraphs, conclusion" format drilled into my head in high school.

>> No.18934950
File: 190 KB, 960x962, 1604791185220.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18934950

>>18934881
Go with the "rule of cool" more than explaining things mechanically and technically correct. It's tempting to show your knowledge but you can discuss the finesse of combat when people aren't fighting, but if you do it in an action scene it slows down too much. You don't want characters trading blows over and over.
The most helpful advice I got for action and fight scenes is to think of it as a conversation or argument. Show the emotions, motivations and thoughts. The action is ultimately a physical confrontation of ideas of some kind, and the physical events can happen so fast that you have few words to say what happened to get the pacing right. Describe briefly what happens physically but make it clear why its happening because then the reader knows why this action matters. If you are clear with the motivation, it makes the physical actions more powerful when the reader immediately interprets it.
Set up the location before things go down if you can, readers will fill in the details themselves when the pace speeds up.

>> No.18935008

>>18934928
There’s nothing to miss when you, yourself said you don’t write.

>> No.18935017

>>18935008
>you, yourself
You don’t understand commas, anon. Opinion discarded.

>> No.18935023

>>18933941
>The servant then trudged on through the mud quickly, which had become wet from River Ouse; had passed by the Abbey of St. Mary, and approached the gate, but so slowly that the men and women, with that superstition which plague the foolish, asked one another what witchcraft had befallen the stranger, yet those few versed in the arts secretly judged it nothing to do with black magic, for his skin seemed not to bubble with boils, and behind the servant, whom stood at the entrance, were eight minstrels carrying buisines, and further behind was a young man, who, with eagerness and cautiousness, paced back and forth upon his horse, and held back from crushing the procession.

Bruh..

>> No.18935044

>>18935017
>Deflecting
It's always the same with you fags.

>> No.18935046

>>18935023
Isn’t this an incorrect use of whom?
As per an article:
> But what does that mean? “Who,” the subjective pronoun, is the doer of an action. For example, “That’s the girl who scored the goal.” It is the subject of “scored” because the girl was doing the scoring. Then, “whom,” as the objective pronoun, receives the action. For instance, “Whom do you like best?” It is the object of “like”.
There’s also sentence fragments.

>> No.18935070

>>18935046
>Isn’t this an incorrect use of whom?
It is.

>> No.18935916

>>18931777
Thanks. Better safe than sorry.
>>18932348
Query letter.

>> No.18936091

Tell me, animechads. Would having a team of five evil rangers and a group of five monster guys in my cool and gritty super sentai project feel repetitive?
Only the evil rangers would be a team. The other group is just vaguely related by being the most dangerous but they aren't actually a team or formally a group.

>> No.18936133
File: 19 KB, 100x100, 1623308957129.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18936133

Got some great fantasizing about doing interviews done today bros. Anyone else?

>> No.18936151

>>18923426
It’s too hot to be writing. You can’t think straight

>> No.18936159

>>18936151
Sounds like an excuse to not write.

>> No.18936164

>>18936133
I daydream about writing.

>> No.18936193

>>18936164
I wish I could do that. I waste all my time writing and only rarely get good daydreaming done.

>> No.18936212

>>18936151
It's 13 degrees Celsius and half cloudy

>> No.18936215

>>18936133
While on the can I fantasized about telling booktubers how my career got started.

>> No.18936228

>>18936193
>I waste all my time writing and only rarely get good daydreaming done.
Anon, you don't need to pretend that you write, no one here writes, it's okay to be honest.

>> No.18936440

>>18936091
Did you want to make that netflix show, Boys, but for super sentai?
As long as it's interesting and not dreary, I guess.

>> No.18936651

>>18936228
I got 6 publications, buddy.

>> No.18936654

>>18936212
Tasmania?

>> No.18936728

>>18936654
Try the other side of the world.

>> No.18936847

>>18936651
Sure you do, anon. You're traditionally publish, as am I.

>> No.18936945

>>18936728
I thought the northern hemisphere was in summer lol…. Or do you mean South Amerikkka?

>>18936847
Yep. Post your book, anon.

>> No.18936966

>>18936945
It is summer. Finnish summer.

>> No.18937036

>>18936133
this is the terminal stage IMO

>> No.18937227
File: 133 KB, 1240x930, Charlie.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18937227

I sent it. I sent it to a publisher. Their website says they'll respond in 1-3 months.
What do I do in the meantime? Start something else?
Bros?

>> No.18937240

>>18937227
what did you write? How long did it take you? Any tips on finishing? Have you published anything before or won any contests?

>> No.18937337

>>18937227
Yes, you have to start writing something else. In a few months be prepared to get disrupted and have to edit your story further if someone decides to represent your story. Before you know it you'll have deadlines, working with publicists, eventually interviews and book signings. Don't worry about deadlines too much as most authors never reach them, it's like construction where people tend to delay. You can lose opportunities if you take too long though, but write at your own pace especially if you still have a day job.

>> No.18937552

How do you stomach working on a story that is highly derivative of and is conceptually an improvement upon a work that you hate hate hate?

>> No.18937666

>>18937240
>what did you write?
Novel about my time in the army.
>How long did it take you?
From January 6th.
>Any tips on finishing?
Just do it.
>Have you published anything before or won any contests?
No.
>>18937337
Alright, I'll start something else then.

>> No.18937783

How far fetched is it to get into writing with zero experience?

>> No.18937921

Boys, I think I found the most kino metaphor of my writing career.

>The ranger marched down to the residential area. The hold had been transformed in the last month, with sheets strung up like walls. Empty crates and boxes had been repurposed into furniture and shelving. One particular section had once been a walkway but the passengers had blocked it off. To the dismay of the medical staff, both official and press-ganged, a love hotel had been constructed. Trying to find his way around it made teenagers pop up and scatter like startled squirrels trying to find a nut.

>> No.18938046

>>18932321
summarizing the books i've read in bullet point form for me to learn not to be shit in plot. right now it's lolita.

>> No.18938059

>>18924131
Nice

>> No.18938071

>>18937921
>like startled squirrels trying to find a nut.
heh

>> No.18938180

>>18938071
>>18937921
A squirrel doesn't go looking for nuts when startled, they would drop them and run. Would actually make a better pun too, giving up on the nut to flee.

>> No.18938189

>>18937921
How about instead:
>Like cutfags trying to find a nut.

>> No.18938195

>>18938180
Fair point

>> No.18938216

How am I supposed to reconcile my love for fantasy manga, disinterest in fantasy novels, and love for realist novels? There’s a gap there. I don’t have any interest in anime writing, but I do like manga so there’s a gap there.

>> No.18938266

"El Pueblo estaba situado entre dos grandes ciudades de provincia, pero no había nada digno en él que nunca hubiera hecho a nadie darle importancia a su existencia. Antiguamente había pertenecido a las tierras de algún conde, y la vida habría pasado por allí sin pena ni gloria, convirtiéndose en un título pequeño dentro de un título nobiliario mayor, luego en parte de un reino, y al final en un insignificante puntito rojo en el mapa de un país industrial. Era un pueblo que no tuvo ninguna razón para nacer, ni tiene de seguir existiendo, que sencillamente siempre había estado ahí como están las montañas, los ríos y las rocas. En este tipo de pueblos la vida no es tratada como algo de valor trascendental, sino como una cosa sencilla y efímera como una racha de lluvias o una nevada, que está sujeta de manera irremediable al paso del tiempo como las cosechas y tampoco pienses demasiado en ella porque hay muchas cosas que hacer, segar esto, plantar lo otro, matar aquello. Estos pueblos están movidos por la inercia heredada de generaciones, movimientos mecánicos que parecen dados a cuerda y programados por un gran arquitecto universal de manera eficiente y estática. Son pueblos que existen para servir como justificación al resto de cosas importantes que pasan en el resto del mundo, raíces de la realidad, pueblos donde nunca ocurren acontecimientos ni hechos destacables, donde nunca nace ningún genio ni se descubre ningún yacimiento arqueológico. Y son precisamente estos pueblos los que duermen, a veces durante siglos, con sus nombres medievales y sus casas decadentes, con su oxidada maquinaria social siempre en funcionamiento, donde ocurren las cosas más prodigiosas e increíbles, donde todo ese aburrimiento y ese hastío explotan en una pirotecnia de surrealismo y excentricidad que los catapulta fuera de nuestra realidad hacia los abismos insondables de la locura."

Just wrote this, rate and critique welcome, I'm starting.

>> No.18938311

if i write 100 words a day i can finish my novella in four months

>> No.18938404
File: 20 KB, 400x400, 1629162311670.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18938404

anons with aphantasia/extremely low visualization skills, how do you describe your scenes?
other anons, what do you think about stories where visual description is bare-bones?

>> No.18938415

>>18938404
It can be an interesting style of contours. You don't really need a vivid mind's eye to pull this off—smartest people are usually aphantasic.

>> No.18938435

>>18938404
I guess I'd make the comparison to RPG-Maker games. Some of the best stories I've experienced have been in the lowest of fidelity. If you have strong characters and a well thought out narrative you can probably get away with a lack of descriptive world building but it's probably a pretty large handicap overall.

>> No.18938447

>>18936440
Ah, no, I didn't like The Boys.
I read the comic a long time ago and its only saving grace was the IRA guy with the bulldog, though I forgot his name.

>> No.18938790

>>18936133
I was doing the same thing for two hours today. Talking about my work, and then the interviewer asks
>Professor Thompson said that you were influenced by........... blah blah...... could you please comment on that?
>Ah, and what do you think?
>The question is about professor Thompson, Mr X.
>Yes, but I am asking what you personally think about my work. You have your own thoughts and opinions. Do not quote secondary works, quote me and analyse what I wrote. So: what do you think?
I felt so cool bros

>> No.18938854

>>18937783
Not farfetched bin the slightest. Pretty doable even.

>> No.18938926
File: 151 KB, 800x500, DFW2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18938926

>>18938790
>Charlie Rose: What were your inspirations, what made you decide to write, Anon?
>Me: Well, sometimes I would have this feeling when I finished something. A show, a book, a piece of art, an album. But it would only happen 1% of the time. This deep, meaningful sorrow mixed with satisfaction. This unbelievable feeling that would dissipate about three days later. Not just this 'oh that's fun I liked that flick' type deal but something close to the nerve of the human condition. I kept questioning it. I kept asking my friends with doctorates in psychology and philosophy what this feeling was and how to I make it in my art. Eventually I just started going at it and kept writing. Throwing away anything that didn't elicit that feeling by the end of it.
>Charlie Rose: Then who made this feeling happen?
>Me: Well, DFW, Anno, AJJ, LoGH, Steinbeck, Kafka. A bunch of stupid stuff that not everyone likes. It's probably all subjective and I just have daddy issues. Y'know I've always said DAD stands for Death Abandonment Divorce.
>Charlie Rose: Now you say abandonment. You used to be a lawyer, correct? Why did you stop?
I'm going to die alone and none of my dreams will come true.

>> No.18938933

What's the consensus on using a name that has already been used before?

For example, I want to call my character 'X'. They are, again for example, a travelling explorer who has a fear of caves. The name 'X' is really uncommon, but has popped up in another relatively well known work of fiction 30 years ago.

The 'X' in the previous work of fiction has no comparable traits to the 'X' in my work, other than the name. Neither character has a surname.

I can imagine getting around this by shifting the letters a little bit, or going for an alternate spelling, but I really think this name is beautiful.

>> No.18938952

>>18938933
I will not name my character Indiana Jones.
I will name him Indiana.
I will name him Jones.
But not both.
Steal aspects that make it a reference/call back, but not enough to need a DMCA takedown notice on your royal road posts.

>> No.18938974

>>18938952
So PURELY hypothetically Sauron the used car salesman is alright?

>> No.18938983

>>18938974
I think people who go by one name within pop culture are probably off limits.
>Cher the destroyer of worlds
>Admiral Madonna
>Saruman Esq.
Sorry anon. I think it's a little too close to home for it to be taken seriously. If it's being used ironically in something light, then maybe.

>> No.18939050

Can I get poetry books recc’d?

>> No.18939144

>>18926943
Read chapter one. If you wanted to convey a sense of filthiness and decay, like in American Psycho or Gravity's Rainbow, you made it. If you wanted to write chinese wall type paragraphs, like in Gravity's Rainbow or Infinite Jest, you are too short on the words. If you wanted to make those chinese wall type paragraphs entertaining and fun to read, like in Gravity's Rainbow or Infinite Jest, you didn't make it, like at all. It's not a chore to read, but its not very entertaining either It's kinda like you make the atmosphere dark, filthy and grim, but in the process you word lost life and soul and became dull and boring, even though you tried to make it feel alive using your characters as a medium to bring life to your setting, which you failed to do. It's not bad, but its not good either.

>> No.18939327

>>18938311
Bro your second draft? Your third?

>> No.18939414
File: 122 KB, 1242x872, 389EEDCD-34B7-44FE-B835-7544D4211AAE.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18939414

>>18938926

>> No.18939616

>>18938933
>>18938974
I think it's alright if there happened to be a John Smith in a completely unrelated work, because there's only so many names you can come up with, but naming someone specifically after someone so iconic is absolutely retarded.

>> No.18939901

I'm trying to learn how to write decent dialogues. How is this as an example of good dialogue?

https://youtu.be/XKDs-OFgRng

I feel like this is mostly well-written but pretty cheesy at times. Average by normal standards and good for a kids show. Thoughts?

>> No.18940218

This is a complicated topic so apologies if I can’t quite get it out the way I want to, but what I want to ask is how you guys deal with what I refer to as “internet bipolarity”. What I mean by that is this sort of quick and fleeting focus and shifting from one idea to another, from one topic to another, from one aesthetic to another. I don’t know if anyone else has experienced this, but I just feel like I’m constantly bombarded with images and symbols and ideas in this scarcely recognizable pattern and sometimes it’s really hard to fix myself on one basic direction in order to work on a project. You know? There’s so many books, authors, movies, videos, podcasts, lectures, comics, and experiences that sometimes it’s feels like it’s all big jumble and if there’s anything in there that’s worth talking about it, it’s so difficult to sort through it all.

Has anyone experienced this? Am I crazy?

>> No.18940261
File: 63 KB, 500x385, img4.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18940261

>>18940218
You are experiencing post post modernity. This is the hyper real. The internet is pure simulacra. You are being exposed to more stimuli in an hour than many people did in a decade. Did you think for the past 5000 years of western civilization that anyone could look through the real physical equivalent of a 10 gig file folder of frog reaction pictures? Going to the museum once had weight. Going on a trip to see the world was exciting. Reading a new book was the most thrilling and in depth activity one could do that wasn't ACTUALLY DOING THE THING.

You live in the worst time line. You live at the brink of mans self destruction. The human condition cannot survive within the realm of techno-capital. We no longer have community. Or boredom. The internet feeds your little chemical receptors constantly, in a perpetual state of over production. You are exhausted. Your brain is exhausted. You cannot stop. You like that don't you, you little slut. Yeah. They made this just for you. Just to placate your little brain. Don't you want to feel good? Don't you want to see on a screen the things that never could be in the real world? Come escape with me, anon. We can forever be free in the aether of conformity and stagnation. Don't you wonder why the iphone never ACTUALLY changed? They hit the end game. Your science fiction novel will forever be fiction because they don't want warp drives or flying cars. They want you observed and plugged into a digital IV of metaphorical heroin. The planet is going to die but we will be too busy collecting anime boat girls and jerking off to video essay themed pornography to care.


Unplug.

>> No.18940318

>>18939901
Instead of showing a cartoon, please post some dialogue you have written.
>What up Marc?
>Nothin' much you lazy slut.
>Fuck a doodle doo to you too faggot
>Anyway, Can I borrow a couple cups of milk and eggs? I'm gonna bake a cake.
>It's a piece of cake to bake a pretty cake.
>No, seriously, Can I borrow them?
>if the way is hazy! Are you doing the cooking by the book?
>What?
>You know you can't be lazy!
>Cut it out Steve.
>Never use a messy recipe!
>I fucking hate you. Never speak to me or my wife again. Game night is over
>The cake will end up crazy!
>I slept with your wife Steve.
*scene*

>> No.18940334

>>18940318
>nooooo you can't ask for tips on writing on a writing general
shut up fag

>> No.18940354

>>18940334
I heard once that you should write your dialogue out and then cut every other line because real conversation is boring and we can imply what was taken out contextually. I also have found that writing good dialogue is about polishing it right up until it feels cheesy. There's this retrospective line you cross when drafting or editing dialogue where it ends up sounding like not-real-people-talking-look-ma-I-memorized-my-lines.

>> No.18940401

>>18940261
But you’re not unplugged yourself? And let’s be honest here and ask ourselves if it’s even possible to really unplug? Is that expedient if it is possible? I don’t know. Otherwise, I understand completely what you’re saying half tongue in cheek half serious and I can only agree, but then we need to talk about how to find stable ground either within the hyper real or how to exit from it. I can’t make stories out of incoherent flashes of reality experience.

>> No.18940599

>>18939144
Thank you for at least reading it, it’s appreciated.
I’ll look through it again and see what I can change, but if you could elaborate it’ll help, if you find the time.

>> No.18940879

>>18938311
Write more than that a day, Jesus Christ, that's barely a conversation between characters.

>> No.18941148
File: 91 KB, 1024x758, 1568734933854.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18941148

>>18940218
>>18940401
What that DFW-anon referred to is also called post-ironic. Post-modern already has the feeling of too many things and ideas pushed on you and that it's all insincere, and it led people to use irony and sarcasm as a tool to expose hypocrisy. Post-modernists are still very common, these are the scallywags and boycotters and twitlongerers, you see.
Post-irony, some call it new sincerity, in part is this idea that irony isn't effective at exposing hypocrites, because one you unmask them and no one does anything about it, it's a fruitless effort.

So the behavior you see about synthesizing of memes and nonsense and you can't tell who theyre making fun of or what they are trying to say is just that. You aren't confused, there are a lot of people that are sick of being sarcastic all the time and imagining that everyone is a hypocrite simply for liking a shirt or not selling their lamp or whatever nonsense. This reaction has become increasingly common since the 1990s, since in the 1980s sarcasm hit critical mass.

>> No.18941483

>>18941148
I’m not referring to irony honestly. I like the term hyper-reality because it suggests what I’m really getting at which is this internet-enabled way of interacting in the world wherein I feel constantly bombarded with this plurality of ideas, symbols, themes, motifs, aesthetics and it’s this giant jumbled mess that moves too quickly to form into a coherent story. The only natural expressions from that are the exasperated sigh of trying to make sense of it all, a complaining of the state of things, or a total retreat into artificially created narratives. None of those interest me as an author. I want to stop feeling myself jerked around by narratives and ideas and this or that thing and be able to focus on one or two things to be able to construct a story from that. That’s not exactly irony. It’s more like interpreting the world.

>> No.18941630

>>18925978
Site straight up doesn't work on firefox with minimal ad-blocking, privacy addons. idk -- I'll keep checking back though

>> No.18941645

>>18941630
sadly this is becoming the case on more and more of the web... It's gotten so bad that I have to keep chromium installed to view certain pages (like my bank website)

>> No.18941653

I came back to write after several years, scarred from terrible experiences as a young hobbyist. My first draft is as barebones as humanly possible without becoming a checklist. It looks like:

>John did X thing. Mary smiled, then the tires on his car exploded....

Shit like:

>Headlights blinded him. He covered his eyes with his arm and the bus deafened his ears with a blaring horn, then knocked him off of the road.

Is this bad? I don't know how detailed (or not) a first draft is supposed to be.

>> No.18941796
File: 120 KB, 1080x1016, 1617038644290.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18941796

>>18940401
>>18941148
>>18941483
My post about post post modernism was not specifically about post irony or new sincerity, but new sincerity can be a response to post post modernism the same way I said "unplug" is a solution.

I think it's a daily struggle of balances and testing to see what you can impact within your immediate surroundings, but just like any addiction or habit, it's difficult to implement and maintain and your environment effects it more than anything else.

We can talk about community, contextualizing others empathetically, working out, going outside, writing, reading more, being with other friends. But in a time when externalities of sociopolitical currents force us to stay home and become alienated from out friends and struggle to pay the bills, it becomes difficult to not seek this easy digital escapism. To start watching all of the x-files is easier than me getting some addy, less stressful than calling friends, takes less effort than physical activity, less embarrassing than dating women, and cheaper than getting a 12 pack of modelo.

The ease at which a parasocial relationship can develop is astounding. It was first waifus from NEETS, but when everyone becomes a NEET every famous face becomes a waifu.

The fact I just spent 2 minutes to find the right picture to post, so that anons I don't know and will so temporally interact with may, in fact, giggle.

>> No.18941817

>>18941653
Neither of them really matter as prose is just the vehicle for artificial meaning. The real question is: what is the goal for your writing? How does this check list solve the issues of your previous experiences? Or does your checklist simply cover up the scars and disassociate yourself from your own found personal failings? Why do you need the approval of someone else when it comes to a vague idea of what your prose should be. There are writers who write like your first line and they have been impactful to literature. There are people who write like your second sentence and sell smut on amazon. The reverse of those two is also true. It is all completely subjective.

Do you want our approval so you can write more than 30 words? Good job anon. keep it up!
Do you want an in depth discussion of the issues you are struggling with or are you attempting to couch the conversation into something narrow and within scope so that it stays in the realm of comfort for you? What are you after? I repeat, what is the goal for your writing?

>> No.18942078
File: 72 KB, 376x814, 1630191858102.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18942078

Is it "pseud" to think that writers should read regularly?

Is it "pseud" to think that writers shouldn't be using writing as a replacement for a medium that they want to create in but can't?

Is it "pseud" to think that a novel should be written like a novel?

>> No.18942140

>>18942078
Yes, only midwit writers think reading is important.

>> No.18942167

>>18942078
Artists should engage to an extent with quality work in their medium, but sometimes the special magic of the art loses its value as an audience member. I know once I got deep enough into music or photography only the really good stuff gave me chills anymore. Just like everyone in these threads make fun of YA or /ic/ makes fun of that bubble style. An artist that learns the tools of a trade sees art more critically as its elements together than as a whole piece. So, I think it’s good to engage with your medium from the other side, but it never feels the same, y’know?

The second question seems more difficult. I personally dabble with many creative outlets. The physical manifestation of your will upon the earth doesn’t happen, I don’t think, until you see your work on the printed page. Epubs and pdfs feel fake. It’s just like graphic design, it feels real on a shirt but not a website. At least to me. Woodworking feels more real than 3D modeling and I think there’s a satisfaction from that reality that computer mental work just doesn’t satiate.

But again, I don’t know. I’m just thinkin.

>> No.18942258

>>18941653
Develop a better sense of pacing.

Pacing is basically how much time you devote to a given idea or scene. Time (in literature) consists of words. If something is important, you take more time describing it. So first you need to decide what's important. In a detective story, physical details are highly important because it's something the reader needs to know to guess about the answer. In a horror story, emotions are important because you're literally trying to invoke an emotion (fear).

In an example like yours, which mostly seems like an action story, you'd probably want a mix of detail and emotion. So think of a way to put more words in, without being repetitive with your vocabulary or images. Take a moment and consider what it would actually feel like to be blinded by headlights. It wouldn't just randomly happen, there would be a build-up. You could get a lot of mileage out of just that idea, being blinded by headlights.

>A steady stream of traffic thrummed by, the headlights flowing after one another in a continuous stream of glowing yellow. A single pair broke off. Someone must be a little drowsy behind the wheel, thought John. Any moment now the tires would skid against the curve and the driver would be jolted back to awareness. John hadn't even completed that thought before he suddenly realized that the lights had swung full-bore in his direction.

If you do a decent amount of reading you should have the vocabulary necessary to come up with something like this for every important scene. Just slow down and take a moment to really put yourself in the character's shoes. Writing takes patience and focus, and this is where both really come together to create compelling art.

>> No.18942263

>>18941653
>scarred from terrible experiences as a young hobbyist.
What do you mean by that? Did you get a little too pretentious and get mocked for purple prose?

>> No.18942424

>>18941817
>The real question is: what is the goal for your writing?
I just like to write.

>How does this check list solve the issues of your previous experiences?
It doesn't. That took a long time to get over, and it doesn't have anything to do with this problem.

>Or does your checklist simply cover up the scars and disassociate yourself from your own found personal failings?
It doesn't do that either. The purpose is to make sure whether or not I have enough to say to justify writing a full length novel. I also want to know whether this is normal, or if writers all write their 'prose' in the first draft and then trim it down later. I'm not used to writing a draft like a checklist but it's what feels natural to me right now.

>Why do you need the approval of someone else when it comes to a vague idea of what your prose should be... It is all completely subjective.
I don't need approval, but there are some technical skills that make some writing objectively better than others. I'm not confident that I have those yet although that isn't really what the post is about. (I'd appreciate some tips on developing these skills or my own voice/style though.)

>>18942258
>Develop a better sense of pacing.
If this thread is still alive, or if you're in the next general, I'd love to show you a more polished work so that you can critique my actual sense of pacing. I have the fundamentals down, I think, which is exactly why the checklist style is bothering me. The plan is to fill in the emotion later (most sections have a little more to explain what's going on to an editor than whatever I've posted) but I wanted to know if people have taken this approach before.

>>18942263
>Did you get a little too pretentious and get mocked for purple prose?
No. I wasn't mocked. What happened was pretty bad, and for privacy reasons I'd rather not go into it. 'Scarred' isn't really the right word, but the experience did turn me off of writing for several years.

>> No.18942458

>>18942424
>I have the fundamentals down, I think, which is exactly why the checklist style is bothering me. The plan is to fill in the emotion later
Oh, I didn't realize at first that you were specifically asking about the first draft. No, the skeleton method is probably the most efficient way of doing a first draft. If you load each scene with depth and emotion it'll be more difficult to cut out or re-write portions later. You won't want to lose some really great prose or risk winding up with a misshapen final product because you rewrote something and it came out flat, but you never remembered to go back and fill it out later. Yeah I'll critique some of your more polished stuff.

>for privacy reasons I'd rather not go into it
Just change things around. You're a writer, I'm sure you can find some way to change the literal events while still retaining the same basic emotional "truth" of your experience.

>> No.18942512

>>18942458
>No, the skeleton method is probably the most efficient way of doing a first draft.
Interesting. Thanks.

>Yeah I'll critique some of your more polished stuff.
Thanks again.

>You're a writer, I'm sure you can find some way to change the literal events while still retaining the same basic emotional "truth" of your experience.
I don't know if I'm tired or if the experience was just really bad, but I've come up with a couple of different alternatives and they seem too close to the original.

>> No.18942518

>>18941148
Maybe I'm retarded and lack reading comprehension, but I don't fully understand what you mean. What is an example of post-irony?

>> No.18942554

Tips for pacing? I feel like all my scenes move way too fast.

>> No.18942671

>>18942518
Not him, but first you had modernism. The belief that technology and science was going to make everything better. And then came the two World Wars, wherein technology unleashed unspeakable horrors upon the world, leading to the belief that it was some fundamental flaw in humanity which was holding us back from utopia.

This lead to post-modernism, which basically said you shouldn't take things too seriously. Taking nations seriously, for instance, led to fascism, led to the World Wars. A good example of post-modernism is Kurt Vonnegut's style of humor, wherein he explains deeply-rooted concepts of American culture via completely objective, unemotional language, revealing the absurdity of, for instance, feeling pride when you look at the American flag. "It's just some cloth with a unique design" which is true, but it ignores the concept of symbolism and how images can be shorthand for ideas and memories.

A big part of post-modernism is sarcasm. Saying one thing when you mean another. When done well, it is very funny and insightful, because you can reveal the hypocrisy of an idea by stating it literally.

>Capitalism is bad
>sent from my iphone, lol

But the poster you were replying to illustrates an important point: what's the good of revealing hypocrisy if you don't do anything about it? And if you wanted to do something about hypocrisy, you'd have to take it seriously, and doing that would undermine the entire foundation of post-modernism, which is that taking things seriously is bad.

So now people want to take things seriously again, because fifty years of irony have replaced moon landings and massive infrastructure projects with mean-spirited jokes. And now we get this kind of half-hearted attempt to do serious things without taking them seriously. You get the Boogaloo Boys and change.org petitions to build a Death Star. So we're caught between things like violent insurrection done in the spirit of shitposting and hollow attempts at inspiration by undercutting the actual effort of massive undertakings. And it's confusing as shit. Are you really going to overthrow the government or are you just pretending because you think it's funny? Do you really think public outreach is some kind of joke? And it's not just fucking up real life, it's fucking up humor as well. Go look at /x/ and see people trying to be funny while seriously advancing the tenets of the Old Testament.

So we want to be sincere, but there's that lurking fear that we might end up getting a little too sincere about the wrong things again. And now there's an additional fear that we might have a really good idea, but some snarky little shit is going to take it way out of context for a cheap laugh. So society is somewhat paralyzed between needing to solve serious issues and not wanting to be the butt of a joke, and we try to preempt this by seriously joking.

>> No.18942703

>>18942518
We look to what ways the fringe speaks to power over time. There once was speaking truth to power. Power would lie and telling the truth would uncover it. At some point the truth stopped being effective. Showing the hypocrisy of a statement does not change the speakers actions, it’s a rhetorical tool to sway an audience. So then you lie to the lie. You speak with irony. You use sarcasm. You facilitate satire. You speak the inverse of the truth that was a lie to show how absurd the thing was. But suddenly, everything is satire. Everyone speaks with snark. If everything is now this type of irony, because it’s strength by pointing out the absurd is gone, nothing is special. The magic of irony is gone. Yet even without power, irony placates those that wish to speak out against it, so it continues on. Just like the fools you see shouting the truth while no one listens. Redditors post political articles about politicians doing stupid illegal shit, thinking it does anything (it won’t, they aren’t DAs or anyone with authority) and then you see 4chan posters using greentext to describe the same thing
>not embezzling all your money into chuckie cheese tokens
>2021
And the post is just as powerless, but it’s ironic nature makes you laugh and think about it before it fades away into the endless void of every other ironic thing.
So the question then becomes what is post irony? What is after irony? It can’t be meta irony, because that’s still irony. That’s an evolution of the form, not a next step. So post irony is what DFW tried to claim as new sincerity. An eagerness, an eager earnestness for what is real in front of you. This kind of definition also takes into consideration the styling of Truth and of Irony, because while it may seem like new sincerity is just Truth again, it takes into consideration the alienation and cultural ramifications of irony’s history. It is about rebuilding bonds and sharing a synthesis of truth, as opposed to an arbitrary objectivity. It is the Hegelian dialectic synthesis at work.

>> No.18942722

>>18942671
Your post was a better explanation. Good job anon. Hopefully mine supplements.

>> No.18942738

>>18942554
Like I said earlier: first decide what's important. And then use more words on that than you do on the surrounding material, without making it repetitive.

That's just a starting point. Cormac McCarthy is someone who experiments with pacing, giving just as much detail for death as he does for lunch. He does this to illustrate the reality of certain events which have historically been romanticized. In his novels, a gunslinger doesn't die a more noble or exciting death than a man who slips in mud and gets trampled by a horse.

>> No.18942742

>>18923426
Why aren't there links for the book recommendations? You expect people to buy them?

>> No.18942752

>>18942742
Yes, because asking anons to do the bare minimum is hard on them

>> No.18942786

Any good resources for creating characters?

>> No.18942819

>>18942671
>>18942703
So it's basically back pedaling from post-modernism due to its obvious flaws, but with the lasting effect of it, being the necessity of sarcasm and humor as a means of conveying an idea? So in the same vain as the modernist idea of viewing the American flag as a symbol of power and expansion in full seriousness, people look at a Pepe in riot gear not for the absurdity of a cartoon frog promoting a civil war, but that the cartoon frog represents the disillusionment of a people with its government and culture and a desire for change through any means. This Pepe in question isn't viewed as a whole with parts (like the explanation of the flag being cloth with a unique design), but is viewed as a cohesive whole, a symbol. Where post-modernism has the problem of being under-representative of the true meaning of its subject matter, post-post-modernism has the opposite problem in which there are too many interpretations and the message is muddied by the fact that it requires you to be within a certain audience or group to get the in joke.
It's very good that these posts have got me thinking about this now, because I'm currently writing about a dystopia and I could very well fit this into the narrative. The principles of it, how it's weaponized and misunderstood, and what could possibly spawn from it.

>> No.18942852

>>18942786
Your imagination.

>> No.18942907

This is a stupid question, but I need clarification.
It isn't a bad thing if I feel my first draft is bland, right? For my current novel, which is my first novel, I plan to do a first draft which is just the ideas being laid out, the foundation, next would be my touch-up phase and probably where I write a lot of the more meaningful parts of it (the commentary, the symbolism, etc), and I'll figure out what to do with subsequent drafts when / if I need to. Usually with my short stories, I can just do it all in one go with a little bit of refining afterwards, but since the scope of this is bigger, I'm kinda letting the concrete events write itself while it floats around abstractly in my mind.
My point is, does this whole system sound good to people who've written novels before, or am I going about it all wrong? I know a lot of this is subjective, so I'll probably figure it out myself along the way anyway, but it never hurts to get pointers.

>> No.18942995

>>18942907
It sounds like your first draft is going to be a long list of planned actions, walking and exposition/dialogue. That you'll try to give life to in the second draft. And in the third draft, you'll figure out what did you want to actually write about.

I mean, it'll probably work, but prefer to write the story I wanted to write, then reread and retroactively rationalize some of characters and events, then salvage the prose.

>> No.18943002

>>18942786
Unless your story is plot oriented to the point where characters are interchangeable, I think that it's not how it works.

>> No.18943014

>>18943002
What do you mean?

>> No.18943098

>>18943014
I hear that question from people who thought about the world first *Dragons are made from minerals or metals and people fight or tame them* or *Water can be turned into magic and thus the story is about warring islands adventures*. And then they find out that making a stage is not enough, and unless they make a detective, or mystery, or a movement intricate and interesting enough to work with blank slates, they need characters whose motivations and actions will move the story. And that throws them for a loop, because then their initial idea becomes a gimmick that adds to character lives instead of being the core.

>> No.18943192

>>18943098
Oh. I understand what you're saying, but I haven't really created the world at all yet. I have a slight idea but I haven't put much thought into it. I figured coming up with the characters first is actually the wrong way to go about it since the world usually informs the characters, but I'm a lot less interested in writing a story or something very plot-heavy, I want the main focus to be on the characters which is why I wanted to create them first.

Coming up with character ideas on their own can be sort of easy, I just want to make sure that they're well rounded.

>And that throws them for a loop, because then their initial idea becomes a gimmick that adds to character lives instead of being the core.
Also despite not thinking about the world this does still kind of apply, but I'm alright with the general concept being a gimmick because it's not what I want to be the "core" anyway.

>> No.18943250

Fellas?
>>18926141

>> No.18943288

It's difficult to persevere when you know you aren't doing your idea justice, but I also know that I need to write it anyway to be able to improve it.

I'm excited to finish my first chapter to post on here and get some feedback. I expect it won't be very good at all, but I reckon it'll help me improve a lot.

>> No.18943479

>>18943192
Fair enough. I started my novel from several annoyances that happened too often:
Tthe plot relevant characters are sidelined by characters they pulled into the plot to serve as protagonists.
Protagonists,come from outside of whatever setting the plot takes place in, and solve the problem by being outsiders rather than working with others.
Rather than try to advance the world, the stories are too often about defeat evil boss and everything will get fixed.
Other characters are often too ready to give up everything for the protag, they have their goals too.
Also, I'm kinda tired of all the sword and sorcery stories, so I decided to make it about giant robots and flying power armor..

>> No.18943535

>>18941653
Unless you see the story with new passion and understanding that you didn't have before, it's better to abandon very old projects and throw them in the "trunk." Keep it as a record, and feel free to pick out tiny ideas from it, but the structure of the story itself might be completely broken and you can move on and start from scratch. I've heard some writers on their podcasts mention how finishing these old stories can get you burned and they will make you devolve as a writer if it's not your first story.

>> No.18943555

>>18943250
Rape, specifically giant bug rape. That's how I got my first disgusted reader. Mocked him about it to this day.

>> No.18943601

>>18943479
In what I'm trying to write the characters don't really have a choice in doing what they do. It's something that's kind of forced upon them and they just have to put up with it. Well, actually I just made that up. Originally what happens to them and starts them on their journey was going to be the result of a mistake, which would give them much more control, but if it's something far outside of their control that may work better. Maybe that's where I should start, by figuring out the mechanism that propels my characters forward in the first place.

But most importantly, and what i should've asked in the first place, what are some good ideas on how to bring characters together? My story is focusing on a group and I need a way to bring together a random assortment of characters, a la The Breakfast Club. But preferably in a way that wouldn't involve school or a workplace.

>> No.18943620
File: 37 KB, 600x815, 1626831987093.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18943620

>>18943250
>>18926141
Add sensory details. It is better to use phrases like in here >>18931237
Describing words that have sense is good and you want to engage all of the senses. But a word like "sticky" is not enough because people dont always imagine what that feels like. If you say "it clings to my fingers" then they know exactly what you mean. Think of the words that you find disgusting and now describe someone experiencing it. If you engage enough senses with things that people find revolting, they will react.
Here's a teachable example: I was at work and there was a cockroach hanging upside down off the drying rack for laboratory glassware. I pulled the plug off and smashed it so loudly that my lab partner immediately knew what happened and then physically and audibly cringed, although he didn't even see it at all, he imagined it.

>> No.18943968

>>18943601
I think the best is not to bring them together, but their goals and motivations leading them to joining together. Keep their agency.
For example, my story again. One character wants to exploit another team member's famous name, another joined because leeching off others gets him titles without commitment and the first promised to cover for him in exchange for matchmaking, protag quit his former partner due to lies about future plans that ignored collateral for guaranteed victory. Team leader took them as cheap hires until team climbed out of early obscurity, while his partner wants the team's popularity as a platform for their art.

>> No.18944224

What do you think about adding cyberpunk/steampunk/teslapunk to the setting of a fiction?

>> No.18944272

>>18944224
It's homo

>> No.18944310

>>18944224
I've heard some authors go into these settings and sell a lot more for doing so. You'd be surprised how popular they can be. Personally don't care for them necessarily.
So far the only settings I've looked at are post-singularity scifi but not cyberpunk feel, it has a more clean utopia feel to it.
That along with historical settings and also dark fantasy. I use dreamscapes in all my stories to tease out the bizarre aspects of the story. Only thing I've considered after that is something set in the present or near future.

>> No.18944397

>>18923426

“Hey, mommy-o, you feelin’ blue or you got a clue?”

“No, Joe; I’m a jazzy, snazzy disco dawg, and I’ve got an itch to get rich. You want me to get my punk on or my funk on?”

“Well, when you bounce with the big boys, you’re gonna be boogying down all around town. You the kind of glam clam that can slam that blam?”

“Hee-haw, sweetbaby-o. I’m ready to get movin’ so I can get groovin’.”

“You’re in the right place, howdy-boy-eah. When it ain’t show time it’s blow time, and either way it’s go time.”

“I guess I best get the glitter out of my shitter if I’m gonna be ready like Freddy. You good to go or you gotta blow some snow?”

“If you don’t know it, you can stow it! It’s time to remix our fix before we’re pickin’ up sticks. I’ve got the thirst to go in first.”

“Hey, watch it, soul child! When I ain’t bumpin’ bass I’m lumpin’ face, so stop actin’ hip if you can’t get a grip, or catch me on the flip side, ya hear?”

“I’m gellin’ like jell-o, jelly-baby! So crack this open and clown it down, Cowabunga-Charlie, and you won’t have a naggin’ for what you’re beggin’ for.”

“You’re right, that’s as smooth as my groove, and I’m ready to pop like candy corn!”

“That’s phresh! Now grab the daisy chains and let’s go, or we’ll miss the KC and the Sunshine Band concert.”

>> No.18944605

>>18942907
Bro this question was already asked about twenty posts above yours.

But a skeleton draft is probably the best, because it's easier to make large, structural changes.

>> No.18944689
File: 173 KB, 707x1000, MV5BZjJhMThkNTQtNjkxNy00MDdjLTg4MWQtMTI2MmQ3MDVmODUzXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMTAwOTA3NzY3._V1_ (1).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18944689

>>18923426
What do you think of evangelion tier endings? And how does one write those types of endings where the world ends and literally everyone and everything dies [/spoilers]

>> No.18944736

>>18938266
Buena prosa, pero le vendría bien una coma en:
>cosa sencilla y efímera, como una racha de lluvias o una nevada
Y tambíen dirección, porque bonita prosa y todo no se entiende muy bien a donde quieres llegar con tanta descripción.

>> No.18944862

>>18944689
If Dr. Strangelove taught me anything, play it for laughs.

>> No.18944865

>>18944689
please see my post >>18938926
I have been trying to understand the feeling from an ending like that, but the feeling doesn't come from the set of facts of the ending itself, but it's contextual history and resonance.

>> No.18945155
File: 280 KB, 373x640, VALIS1981.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18945155

How do I fix it when the book I'm writing is basically turning into a garbage version of VALIS?

- main character is self-aware that they are going crazy
- main character describes how this impacts their life
- it's trying to be a little bit funny at the same time
- main character's name is my real life name, other characters' names are my friends' real life names
- autobiographical fiction

>> No.18945171

>>18945155
Or in other words, the book I'm writing is turning into a worse version of a book I love.

>> No.18945192
File: 7 KB, 201x251, download.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18945192

I want to show a character doing good for a community, and also as he does so, show the brief glimpes of the lives of the community (its in a ghetto). whats something someone could do door-to-door that would feel natural in terms of helping a community? I thought about them donating food, but theyre not in a position to be generating food. theyre a blacksmith.

>> No.18945210

>>18945155
>aware that they are going crazy
Unless it's critical to your point of the story, it's more effective to write crazy characters as believing they are sane and pair them with a foil that reveals to the reader that the protagonist is insane, either through juxtaposition, dialogue or something else. Main characters waffling with self-doubt as they are aware they are crazy is frustrating to read and it destroys character motivation, and people will enjoy that character less.
You can still dramatically present your life, but just remember the rule of cool in that regard to make a better story.

>> No.18945226
File: 317 KB, 648x657, 1604540595175.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18945226

>>18945192
Maybe the offer free fixes for certain types of repairs or something, not door-to-door. If you need the character to go to someone's house, maybe they notice something broken on one side of the house or roof, and then knock on the door offering to fix it.

>> No.18945237

>>18945226
I was thinking handyman. The goal of the scene is to show him showing the MC the community indirectly and showing him as a good person. the MC peers into the lives of the ghetto people(as a new member of the community) and also sees how her mentor is actively contributing/helping. I wanted to show his behavior is routine, and show multiple places to show brief glimpses of different resident lives in the ghetto. so maybe he could repair a toilet in one, fix a roof in another, fix a squeaky table in another, etc. maybe it doesnt have to be door-to-door. maybe it can be on-call and be montage-like, if that seems like an okay thing to do.

>> No.18945450

I’m not sure of the climate your story is set in but here up North you might have some community members just randomly shovel your driveway for you with out even asking first.
Would allow you to establish a few locations and showing the way community members react to having their driveway shovelled for free could give insight into each general location or upcoming characters. Some could outright tell you to fuck off while others may come out with hot chocolate and have a conversation before helping you out.

>> No.18945466

>>18931188
Anyone?

>> No.18945573

>>18931188
Your imagination.

>> No.18945577

>>18941796
Go to bed, chink.

>> No.18945593

Does anyone know stories that take the idea of a alien masquerading among humans, but reverse it so that it's a human trying to disguise himself among aliens?

>> No.18945600

>>18945593
Kinda. Look into Kurt Vonnegut. SH5 is like that.

>> No.18945741

>>18931188
Reading any Shakespeare or Kit

>> No.18945995
File: 768 KB, 1165x1656, eclipse.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
18945995

>>18944689
Eclipse > Third Impact

>> No.18946053

what are your guys thoughts on incorporating anime clichés and tropes in an ironic manner? Im at a slice of life portion of my story and i want to portray it as being 'light hearted but wrong'

>> No.18946116

>>18945593
Forgetting Elena....kind of. Same vibe you're after though.

>> No.18946121

How do I find some good ominous poems? I need some inspiration for a campaign I'm writing, I like the Twin Peaks' poem but I can't use something that popular.

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