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/lit/ - Literature

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19081792 No.19081792 [Reply] [Original]

>"One of the reasons that the gifted Hemingway never wrote a good novel was that nothing interested him except a few sensuous experiences, like killing things and fucking—interesting things to do but not all that interesting to write about. This sort of artist runs into trouble very early on because all he can really write about is himself and after youth that self—unengaged in the world—is of declining interest. Admittedly, Hemingway chased after wars, but he never had much of anything to say about war, unlike Tolstoy or even Malraux. I think that the more you know the world and the wider the net you cast in your society, the more interesting your books will be, certainly the more interested you will be".

>> No.19081798

>>19081792
>Hemingway never wrote a good novel
I reject your hypothesis.

>> No.19081801

>>19081792
>A Clean, Well-Lighted Place
All I gotta say to that.

>> No.19081817

Apart from the old man and the sea, Hemingway could never write about the why of life, only the how.

>> No.19081819

>>19081792
Hitchens on Vidal

>I was fortunate enough to know Gore a bit in those days. The price of knowing him was exposure to some of his less adorable traits, which included his pachydermatous memory for the least slight or grudge and a very, very minor tendency to bring up the Jewish question in contexts where it didn’t quite belong. One was made aware, too, that he suspected Franklin Roosevelt of playing a dark hand in bringing on Pearl Harbor and still nurtured an admiration in his breast for the dashing Charles Lindbergh, leader of the American isolationist right in the 1930s.

>> No.19081823

Based. Gore Vidal was a much better author than Hemingway, who was vastly overrated.

>> No.19081826

>>19081823
>Hemingway, who was vastly overrated.
yes
>Gore Vidal was a much better author
no

>> No.19081864

It's why he'll always be on the back of the bus when talking about american authors. He just doesn't understand the novel as a format, just completely missing all the richness and depth that can be found there. Short stories are his home, as it should be

>> No.19081911

Communist seethes, sky is blue. Next.

>> No.19081931

>>19081792
He called Theodore Roosevelt and Ernest Hemingway both sissies.

“Give a sissy a gun and he will kill everything in sight. Theodore Roosevelt’s slaughter of animals in the badlands outdoes in sores the butcheries of a later era, Ernest Hemingeay”

I’ve been on a Vidal kick lately. Tons of videos of him speaking are on YouTube. The more I read and fact check the more I realize he speaks the truth especially about politics. The guy is truly an unrated gem.

I love how he hates the New York Times. I don’t know how anyone can take them seriously after that cunt Judith Miller gave Bush credibility that Iraq had WMd.

>> No.19081943

>>19081931
He also fucked Jack Kerouac in the ass and was sucked by him.

>> No.19081944

>>19081819
I always thought Hitchens was on deep state payroll since he supported the Iraq and Afghan wars. I think this became a major issue in their relationship.

>> No.19081974

>>19081943
That’s true. Vidal is gay af. Not sure you can hold that against him. You can clearly see why someone like Cormac doesn’t like hanging out with artist types. A lot of them are gay/bi. Certainly here Vidal, Tennesee Williams, Kerouac, james Baldwin. And he even calls Hemingway a big sissy before all the allegations about cross dressing. And go listen to TR speak….he doesn’t sound too masculine. I really feel Vidal speaks the truth…considering his family he knew a lot of interesting people….funny how some of what he’s saying and now years later he’s vindicated.

I’m reading Burr now and it’s hilarious….talks about Thomas Jefferson by the fire reading books while everyone else is freezing their ass off at Valley Forge. Or how incompetent Washington was as a general. You learn so much from this guy.

>> No.19082057
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19082057

>>19081974
Vidal had many relationships with women too, he treated men more like flings rather than serious partners until he met Howard Auster.

Even as someone who's hardcore right-wing, I can help but be fascinated by Vidal. He's very genuine.

>> No.19082089

>>19082057
>In 1968, the ABC television network hired the liberal Gore Vidal and the conservative William F. Buckley, Jr. as political analysts of the presidential-nomination conventions of the Republican and Democratic parties.[77] Their commentaries led to Buckley threatening to assault Vidal. After days of bickering, their debates degraded to vitriolic ad hominem attacks. Discussing the 1968 Democratic National Convention protests, the public intellectuals argued about freedom of speech, namely, the legality of protesters to display a Viet Cong flag in America, Vidal told Buckley to "shut up a minute." Buckley had likened violent left wing protesters to German National Socialists. Vidal stated, "As far as I'm concerned, the only sort of pro-crypto-Nazi I can think of is yourself." Buckley replied, "Now listen, you queer. Stop calling me a crypto-Nazi, or I'll sock you in the goddamn face, and you'll stay plastered." ABC's Howard K. Smith interjected, and the debate resumed without violence.[57][78] Later, Buckley said he regretted having called Vidal a "queer," yet said that Vidal was an "evangelist for bisexuality."[79]
kek

>> No.19083401

>>19081792
He's right

>> No.19083433

>>19081931
Sounds like the type of kid that makes you realize bullying in grade school is actually an essential social ritual.

>> No.19083617

>>19081792
>we live in a society
Woah

>> No.19083625

Hunters are faggots and pussies, imagine getting obliterated by an actual fag like Vidal lmao

>> No.19083644

So, Vidal writes about politics?

>> No.19083718

>>19081819
>still nurtured an admiration in his breast for the dashing Charles Lindbergh, leader of the American isolationist right in the 1930s.
If so, he'd have come by it honestly. Gore's maternal grandfather, U.S. Senator Thomas Gore was an anti-war isolationist.

>> No.19083773

>>19082057
>>19081974
okay lads, my curiosity is now peaked, Vidal has brined on my shelf and ereader for long enough to finally savour. Is there a vidal chart? best to start guide?
i have Creation (or whatever the original is titled, a fat 700p+ book) and ebooks of The city and the Pillar & Julian. also intrrested in his dyke diary book

>> No.19083774

>>19081792

Isn't Gore Vidal a cheap huckster? Has he written anything really good and insightful? Is he actually a talented writer? He comes across as a midwit hack media personality who, being a midwit and not a true tard, doesn't write insane schlock but just a lot of mediocre unremarkable stuff that would waste your time. Can any anons pitch in? I almost never trust people I see on TV, especially if they're trying to entertain normies

>> No.19083819

>>19083644
it's his specialty

>> No.19083823

>>19083774
I hate to break it to you, grandpa, but Gore Vidal died in 2012.

>> No.19083863

>>19083823

I didn't know he passed, but I meant "seeing him on TV" because of his cringe feud with fellow fraud and cringelord media huckster William F. Buckley. They "intellectual" debates, once Buckley broke his cool and said he could kick his ass. On TV with a live audience into studio. Hilarious reality TV tier, Vidal loved to play the character of a "cultured homosexual art aesthete" and enrage Buckley with his quick gay wit and wry demeanor. Because he seems like a lolcow who would humiliate himself on TV for money I don't trust him to be good at writing for character reasons

>> No.19083887

>>19083863
I've seen the clip. Buckley called Vidal a queer, and threatened to punch him so he'll "stay plastered." I don't know. Looked like flirting to me. I thought they were pretty hot, and hot for each other.

But, yeah, they were pseuds. Anyone using an affected accent (particularly Northern Mid-Atlantic, and particularly whatever it was Barbara Jordan did) is midwit at best.

>> No.19083921

Is this the latest author we're going to fellate because they are gay and we are all gay? Is that all we ever do anymore here? Just quietly say gay man good and straight man bad? Keep this shit contained to the poetry thread faggotry and jerk off about your gayboy poets. Gays fucking destroyed this place with eceleb faggotry and now they are gunning for the greats too.

>> No.19083930

>>19083921
have gay sex, faggot

>> No.19083933

>>19083819
>it's his specialty
Sooooo much better than about sex and war.

>> No.19083940

>>19083921
no, we're going to fellate him because he's hot and sharp-witted.

>> No.19083947

>>19083774
>He comes across as a midwit hack media personality who, being a midwit and not a true tard, doesn't write insane schlock but just a lot of mediocre unremarkable stuff that would waste your time.
Anon, can't you see he's being pushed here solely for being a faggot?
It's his major selling point.
They even they it proudly.

>> No.19083952

>>19081792
>One of the reasons that the gifted Hemingway never wrote a good novel
stopped reading there
it's really weird how these half bodies ( as opposed to nobodies) try to siphon relevance from actual somebodies by constantly suggesting authority over them, it's like the equivalent of a kid saying they're the emperor of Wisconsin or something, except retards like OP take them seriously

>> No.19083971

>>19083921
>Keep this shit contained to the poetry thread faggotry
Don't intermix poetry and fagotry, don't give them this prize.

>> No.19083973

>>19082089
Honestly this is probably the only time I saw anything respectable about Buckley. People love to insinuate this was some kind of mishap, that he lost his composure, but that's part of the need to sterilize the filth that is homosexuality. There's nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade.

>> No.19083993

>>19083973
No, you read his face incorrectly. That's how he intended you to read it. But he is actually passionate enough in that scene to let some of his actual emotion show through his eyes and a subtlety of his smile. He was deeply sexually aroused. Those men were consummate performers.

>> No.19084004

>>19081819
Huh, his beef with Mailer now makes sense

>> No.19084036

>>19083973
Buckley was the last light of American politics, there's no tact or class to be found in our discourse since on either left or right.

I think people recognize the loss and so react harshly when they see what things were like before. Sort of how everyone hates boomers for being able to afford a house once.

>> No.19084138

>>19084004
but they made up afterwards

>> No.19084170

>>19084036
>Sort of how everyone hates boomers for being able to afford a house once.
The boomers are kinda responsible for the current state of things, that's why they might be hated.

>> No.19084181

>>19081819
Fucking based.

>> No.19084518

>>19083774
Julian alone is a much better read than anything I read from Hemingway.

>> No.19085059

Vidal is the last true American.

>> No.19086717

There's a Roy Cohn - Gore Vidal meetup on some NYC talk show that's on youtube. Good stuff.

>> No.19088124

>>19086717
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaP1tkKrCWw

>> No.19088798

>>19081819
Just when I thought I couldn't like Vidal any more than I already do, something like this comes out

>> No.19088972

what even was vidal? was he a leftist? was he liberal? was he a crypto-conservative?

>> No.19089005

>>19088972
Deeply closeted pro-crypto-Nazi

>> No.19089030

>>19081792
This is just jealousy. "His books are too sensuous!" Oh no, imagine writing interesting material, lmao

>> No.19090548

>>19081817
It's all just speculation in the end. Wouldn't those who claim to know be more ignorant than those who aren't pretending to know?

>> No.19090588

Vidal was an interesting character, but the fact is people will still be reading Hemingway 100 years from now, and Vidal will be forgotten.

>> No.19090606

>>19081819
Based Faggot

>> No.19091253

>>19083921
There is no such thing as gay people...only homosexual acts.

>> No.19091286

i like Vidal for his bitchy queer antics, and all of the people he attacks have it coming, but he's not a good writer of books, not even second-rate

>> No.19091705

>>19081819
pretty based, theres no bad time for the JQ and its objectively true that Roosevelt engineered pearl harbour

>> No.19092159

>>19090588
Vidal will be a gem that gets read by a select few while Hemingway is just known as one of those authors you're forced to read because of the school curriculum.

>> No.19093158

>>19092159
Vidal felt that academic types took over the literary novel (think like John Barth). Of course now it’s even worse because these same people are pushing even worse shit.

Gore Vidal spoke the truth without large philosophical or moralistic structures and copious amounts of symbolism that you find in other novels. This style isn’t fashionable today hence the belief of the idiots on this thread that he won’t be read in 100 years. Nobody thought 50 years ago that we’d be reading novels about the transgender experience but here we are. It’ll be a miracle if anybody reads anything in the future.

I would encourage everybody to at least listen to some of his interviews on YouTube. Give him a chance. He’s certainly bettter than half the shit posted on here. And if you don’t like his fiction than read his history books or his essays.

>> No.19093370

>>19090588
Vidal is going to be required reading on American studies once Neo-China solidifies its global power and the idolatry of American """history""" is torn down.

Hemmingway is just going to be remembered as a sissy fag who wrote a book about fishing that wasn't Moby Dick

>> No.19093982

I'm glad Vidal is being appreciated on /lit/.

>> No.19094310

>>19093158
>Vidal felt that academic types took over the literary novel (think like John Barth)

Barth is fun and interesting, Vidal is shit.

>> No.19094407

>>19094310
What do you think makes Barth good and Vidal “shit”.

I’ve learned more from Vidal than the self indulgent style of Barth.

>> No.19095437

vidal was a crypto-conservative.

>> No.19095555

>>19081819
Well I'll be a son of a bitch... It's starting to look like that faggot transexual apologist may have been... Based and redpilled?

>> No.19095687

>>19081792
Who cares what some paedophile apologist has to say?

>> No.19095779

How many of you are gay? I’m gay.

>> No.19095891
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[ERROR]

>>19095779
I’m quite happy, yes.

>> No.19096416

>>19082089
>Vidal stated, "no u"
This is supposed to be an impressive intellectual? I guess /tv/ is a board composed entirely of Gore Vidal

>> No.19096473

>>19095891
Butterfly, when are you going to leave this childish place and begin the much needed work of mentoring the next generation of anarchists? You have revealed yourself to be a great intellect on anarchism and with the US soon coming to a close don't you think it's about time you worked on stimulating your younger comrades?

>> No.19096486

>>19081792
cope

>> No.19096518

>>19095891
tell us about why you are so desperate for attention and ego satisfaction that you became a tripfag on an anonymous image board

>> No.19096577

>>19081819
roosevelt doing pearl harbor was common knowledge back then and everyone loved lindberg, what is hitchens whining about

>> No.19096987
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[ERROR]

>In The Atlantic magazine interview, "A Conversation with Gore Vidal" (October 2009), by John Meroney, Vidal spoke about topical and cultural matters of U.S. society. Asked his opinion about the arrest of the film director Roman Polanski, in Switzerland, in September 2009, in response to an extradition request by U.S. authorities, for having fled the U.S. in 1978 to avoid jail for the statutory rape of a thirteen-year-old girl in Hollywood, Vidal said, "I really don't give a fuck. Look, am I going to sit and weep every time a young hooker feels as though she's been taken advantage of?"

>Asked for elaboration, Vidal explained the cultural temper of the U.S. and of the Hollywood movie business in the 1970s:

>''The [news] media can't get anything straight. Plus, there's usually an anti-Semitic and anti-fag thing going on with the press—lots of crazy things. The idea that this girl was in her communion dress, a little angel, all in white, being raped by this awful Jew Polacko—that's what people were calling him—well, the story is totally different now [2009] from what it was then [1970s] ... Anti-Semitism got poor Polanski. He was also a foreigner. He did not subscribe to American values, in the least. To [his persecutors], that seemed vicious and unnatural."

>—Gore Vidal

>> No.19097437
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[ERROR]

>>19095779
What do you like the most?

>> No.19097456

>>19097437
He was so handsome, damn.

>> No.19097475
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[ERROR]

>>19095555
Don’t call him a homosexual….

>> No.19097869

>>19096987
>fucking thirteen-year-olds is fine unless they're angelic innocents
Unironically wtf is this shit

>> No.19097886

>>19097437
I want to rape his prime twink ass.

>> No.19097898

>>19097869
You may be retarded
The point is that the girl was no innocent and the director is no monster

>> No.19097924

>>19081931
Vidal is a fag. T Roosevelt is the only president to go into battle, besides Washington during the Whiskey Rebellion. Neither Hemingway nor Roosevelt remotely resemble sissies

>> No.19097942

>>19097924
Hemingway is tryhard with a contrived uber-masculine persona and image.

>> No.19098243

>>19097924
Clearly you're missing the point. They were sissies and to hide their inner selves they become "macho" and took up the sport of killing. If that's what you value - killing then that's a good thing and you can then categorically be proud of them.

Some would argue that indiscriminate killing by hunting wild animals or in the more serious case starting wars under false pretenses (which America likes to do) is not a good thing. Moreover, the execution of these activities as a way to exert your masculinity comes across as even more disgusting. But if you admire them then go ahead.

>> No.19098261

>>19097924
Also you're dead wrong about the Presidents that have gone into battle...go read up some more.

>> No.19098438

>>19098261
You are wrong. I said president, not some guy who will become president in 40 years.

>> No.19098630

>>19096987
Those remarks are long on indignation and hyperbole, but short on logic and persuasive argument.

>> No.19098653
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[ERROR]

>>19098438

>> No.19098673

Old Man and The Sea is about fucking and killing things?

>> No.19098701

>>19094407
vidal is out and out shit, his career is a waste of words

barth is a great rhythmical writer and a too tough for you or me to emulate, phrasemakers are easier models for most of us

>> No.19098899

>>19098701
So in your short explanation it seems rhythm is what makes a writer good. Barth had rhythm and Vidal didn't. Is this right?

>> No.19099180

>>19083774
Lincoln sounded like it might be interesting. I heard it characterizes him as a wannabe totalitarian who doesn't really give a shit about freeing the slaves and is really just driven by the idea of making the US a more cohesive base from which power can be derived.

Anyway, that might just be a boomer hot take but it seemed interesting. As far as talent goes in terms of how good he is at writing, I've seen enough people on here vouch for him that it's probably worth checking out at least one of his books (and I'd guess Lincoln would be up there in terms of how interesting the premise seems).

>> No.19099422

>>19098243
You can enjoying hunting, one of the primeval pursuits of man, without trying to compensate for anything. Some men are just naturally more masculine, not everyone is a twink like Vidal

>> No.19100103

Which book did he say this OP?

>> No.19100160

>>19081792
>"One of the reasons that the gifted Hemingway never wrote a good novel..."
Says Gore Vidal, who's only remembered for arguing with people on TV.

>> No.19100665

>>19099422
These faggots truly cannot comprehend that. They have no masculine instinct. They are not men at all but of a different spirit altogether. When I have met gays irl (I live in a big city, there's no helping that for now) who were from developing countries, they themselves at least knew that. A gay guy from South America who I worked with made a clear distinction in his speech between a man and a gay, much like between a man and a woman.

>> No.19100673

>>19081792
>Gore Vidal
What kinda name is that? Sounds pretentious as fuck. If I met someone irl and they said “hello my name is Gore Vidal” I’d think I was having a stroke.

>> No.19100683

>>19099422
But the Heckin animalerinos…

>> No.19100696

>>19099180
There’s a literal shrine to him in DC based on a statue of Zeus.

>> No.19101296

>>19099422
And Hemingway wasn’t one of these men. He liked to dress up as women in his spare time.

>> No.19101301

>>19100673
It's a kino name

>> No.19101308

He wrote the original screenplay for Caligula (1979), which is definitely a movie.

>> No.19101350

>>19100665
I preach for Vidal like Paul did for Jesus.

There are 2 basic arguments presented on this thread for not liking Vidal.

1. People don’t like that he’s gay. I find this ridiculous. Reading, literature, and the arts are by definition gay. Now this doesn’t make you gay but you should realize your in homo town….if you don’t like gays then you frankly shouldn’t be here. Plus how ignorant can one be to dismiss someone’s work strictly based on whether they like dick (something all of our mothers took)

2. People write that he’s not a good writer. I personally feel his fiction reminds me of screenplays which makes sense since that’s how he started after being blacklisted by the NYT. His fiction has lots of dialogue. I don’t see the symbolism, allegory, and more advanced literary structures you would find in Hemingway, McCarthy, Melville etc…

I think where he makes up though is the historical accuracy of his content. He does a good job of bringing up some of the stories that have been memory holed. Cormac writes stories get passed on but the truth gets passed over. Well here are some of those stories. And IMO that’s why you read him.

>> No.19101420

>>19100665
The effeminate mannerisms you associate with gay men are exclusive to gay bottoms. Bisexual top chads like Vidal aren't effeminate or unmanly at all. The opposite is true, actually.

>> No.19101444

>>19101350
I'm a Conservative and I find value in reading Vidal for his commentary on 1960s and 70s America. His novels are also solid. Better than anything Buckley would write ironically.

>> No.19101448

>>19099422
>>19100665
im a faggot and i enjoy hunting

>> No.19101483

>>19101448
>Cruising*
ftfy

>> No.19101507

>>19101350
>how ignorant can one be to dismiss someone’s work strictly based on whether they like dick (something all of our mothers took)
Women don't like dick though, they just put up with it.

>> No.19101847

>>19101420
Are Bisexual bottoms effeminate too or neutral?

>> No.19101881

>>19101847
Effeminate. Think of it this way. If you suck dick or take dicks up the butt then you're spiritually a woman.

>> No.19102111

>>19099422
>>19100665
Hemingway? Who is Hemingway? I do not know of this "Ernest Hemingway" you speak of.

I hope you are not referring to the author who was known in his youth as Dutch Dolly? Surely you haven't mistaken the little girl boy Dutch Dolly as some kind of manly man hunter?

You wouldn't do that, would you anons?

>> No.19102159

>>19081792
Based Vidal making chuds seethe

>> No.19102864

Vidal seems to me to be the last of the American literary tradition that began with The likes of Emerson, Irving, and Cooper. Every significant author to come after him seems so detached from it.
I also have to admire just how idiosyncratic his politics were.

>> No.19102867

>>19097475
He only reacted that way because of the stigma that was attached to it during the time that he was raised, this is simply generation conflict, if he was born today he would proudly refer to himself as homosexual.

>> No.19103173

>>19101881
>you're spiritually a woman
Thanks for the validation anon.

>> No.19103238

>>19103173
No, thank you for your service.

>> No.19104925

>>19081943
Based

>> No.19106248

>>19081801
Not really a novel

>> No.19106320

>>19081819
>no one recognizes this copypasta
you all are newfags

>> No.19106419

>>19097924
>>19098438
TR became President after the Spanish-American War, and the army Washington marched into Pennsylvania never actually fought anyone, all the rebels dispersed before it.