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/lit/ - Literature


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19244388 No.19244388 [Reply] [Original]

Has the US publishing industry gone to shit?

>> No.19244399

>>19244388
I genuinely think lit should start its own publishing house.

>> No.19244401

all public discourse in the U.S. is suffused with identity politics. it's a culture war that isn't going to get better until china wins and american exceptionalism is formally disproven

>> No.19244406

Of course it has. Publishing is firmly in the hands of a gatekeeping clique of predominantly Jewish women residing in New York.

>> No.19244423

>>19244388
Clearly you've never worked for a large organization or this wouldn't be shocking. If you need to be paid a salary you aren't in charge.

>> No.19244455
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19244455

>>19244399
We kinda already did

>> No.19244511

>>19244455
fucking kek, where can I get this?

>> No.19244527

>>19244406
This. There is no "publishing industry." When /lit/ and /lit/-adjacent people use that term, they are thinking of something that existed 100 years ago, an industry that was 90% exclusively profit driven (meaning anything could get published if it had even a small but stable audience) and 10% crank driven (guys like Ungar who just plain liked certain shit and would voluntarily take losses if they believed in authors etc.).

Or they are thinking of something that existed even earlier than that, in the mid 19th century, where every ambitious young guy at university tried his hand publishing journal articles and poetry before he was even 21, and there were multiple levels of publishing one could pay for, including small print runs to be distributed privately.

Even mid/late 20th century is nothing like this, since then the bourgeoisie had cemented its dominance and prevented both right wing and left wing revolutions against it, and it immediately proceeded to begin jacking off on its own face at record speeds with its usual bourgeois antics: elevating other bourgeois based on how bourgeois they were and then gossiping about the latest bourgeois sensation and showing off how bourgeois you are by how much you know about bourgeois approved gossip so you can become the next bourgeois author published in Encounter wow you went to Harvard (when it was basically a revolving door finishing school for rich people)?? me too what are the chances.

But we're even past that point now. Now it's entirely an ideological pet project of the managerial class, or more specifically, of the sons and daughters of the managerial class, who desperately need fake jobs, so they become interns based on favors and connections and work their way into real-sounding industries (which are actually husks of their original selves), like "journalism" and "publishing." When you say "I want to get published!" you are basically saying "I want some rich JeWASP's fashionably bisexual hapa/blapa daughter with the twitter where all she does is bitch about antivaxxers and 'indigenous voices' to like my manuscript!!!"

I've got news for you, this is the kind of manuscript the "industry," universally with one mind and one voice, likes:
>Growing up in conservative central Pennsylvania was tough for the 21-year-old Deaf, genderqueer, pansexual, and biracial (Chinese/White Jewish) author. He describes his gender and sexual identity, his experiences of racism and ableism, and his desire to use his visibility as a YouTube personality, model, and actor to help other young people like him. He is open and vulnerable throughout, even choosing to reveal his birth name.
>Man stated in an interview with Teen Vogue, "There is an extreme lack of representation for young, Deaf, queer, Jewish, Asian, transgender artists...So, I decided to be my own representation."

>> No.19244532

>>19244511
here, ill be the shill
https://www.lulu.com/en/us/shop/herman-melville-and-anonymous/moby-dick/paperback/product-7wgny7.html?page=1&pageSize=4

>> No.19244551

>>19244455
Can Manhattoes be a wordplay on "monatto"?

>> No.19244619

>>19244527
Very good summary. I was wondering what made every era of publishing do distinctive

>> No.19244666

>>19244388
If you want to write these days, your goal shouldn't be getting published. Even if you did get published, nobody would read your book. You would get the temporary satisfaction of being able to tell people you are a published author, but quite quickly you'll realise that being published in and of itself is not bringing you any happiness and you will sink further into despair.

Write because you want to write. If you get published, so be it, but don't make that your goal.

>> No.19244724

>>19244666
>the temporary satisfaction of being able to tell people you are a published author
Even this is pointless now. Being published is like having a PhD. Once you see that it's not like 20+ years ago, every hipster on Twitter now has a PhD, you will stop thinking it's impressive. But until you have that direct insight you will still have the lingering feeling that these mean something.

In the 90s maybe, you could still shit on the Franzen types for being mediocre but you had to admit they had cachet. Now it's not even Franzen types or Franzen epigones, it's literally just random rich people with rich parents getting published. There is nothing left. The industry is looking for social media influencers with paypig audiences, nothing else.

>> No.19245001
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19245001

>>19244666
if it doesn't come bursting out of you
in spite of everything,
don't do it.
unless it comes unasked out of your
heart and your mind and your mouth
and your gut,
don't do it.
if you have to sit for hours
staring at your computer screen
or hunched over your
typewriter
searching for words,
don't do it.
if you're doing it for money or
fame,
don't do it.
if you're doing it because you want
women in your bed,
don't do it.
if you have to sit there and
rewrite it again and again,
don't do it.
if it's hard work just thinking about doing it,
don't do it.
if you're trying to write like somebody
else,
forget about it.
if you have to wait for it to roar out of
you,
then wait patiently.
if it never does roar out of you,
do something else.

if you first have to read it to your wife
or your girlfriend or your boyfriend
or your parents or to anybody at all,
you're not ready.

don't be like so many writers,
don't be like so many thousands of
people who call themselves writers,
don't be dull and boring and
pretentious, don't be consumed with self-
love.
the libraries of the world have
yawned themselves to
sleep
over your kind.
don't add to that.
don't do it.
unless it comes out of
your soul like a rocket,
unless being still would
drive you to madness or
suicide or murder,
don't do it.
unless the sun inside you is
burning your gut,
don't do it.

when it is truly time,
and if you have been chosen,
it will do it by
itself and it will keep on doing it
until you die or it dies in you.

there is no other way.

and there never was.

>> No.19245162

>>19244532
Ty

>> No.19245177

>>19245001
cringe

>> No.19245191

>>19244388
>question based on a screencap of a post recounting another post the author saw but couldn't remember where something was linked that he didn't read because he wasn't sure if it was true
This might be the most abstract OP of all time

>> No.19245197

>>19244388
Yes, they're called sensitivity readers. Every major western publisher that isn't explicitly social conservative will make you go through one.
This sort of thing can be found everywhere in western society, as elite overproduction creates people who can only be employed in roles like this. Diversity consultants and inclusion officers are different manifestations of this phenomena.

>> No.19245202

>>19245001
>just be urself xd

>> No.19245213

> is this true?
Not exactly. They check to see if you’re Jewish or if the book is about what it’s like to be a Jew from the New York area before it gets to that point.

>> No.19245225

>>19244388
Of course its true and as others have pointed out, similar processes are used in almost every industry nowadays.

>> No.19245238

we need a new criitical edition project

>> No.19245242

>>19244551
To me it's supposed to sound like a primitive tribe name, hence "indian island"

>> No.19245255

The days of the lower class man publishing a breakout novel is over. Publishers are merely gatekeepers for rich families and some social justice writers they patronize out of pity, self-publishing is swamped with so many low effort messes that nobody will try anything. Webnovels and visual novels are the future for writers who are barred from the literary world, fujos and weebs are more openminded than the average modern lit enthusiast.

>> No.19245258

>>19244399
Good luck getting anyone to pay for it. I somehow doubt that there's a literary inclined multimillionaire who lurks here who would be willing to fund any efforts we make, let alone good ones.

>> No.19245259

Yes. But you can still get published. The bigger problem is that nobody who should be published tries. Of those who do, they expect that they can just hawk their mediocre first novel by an unknown author and expect it to get published, which is delusional. If it’s going to make money, they’ll publish it. Not only do they not know you’re not going to make them money, they’ll almost certain that they’ll lose money. That’s the bigger reason you won’t get published.

>> No.19245265

>>19245258
>I somehow doubt that there's a literary inclined multimillionaire who lurks here who would be willing to fund any efforts we make
I have faith

I know there's some big pockets jewboy reading this, fund my esoteric jewhate novel right now I demand full editorial control you WILL let me leave in the "poetic preamble" and the parts about my mom

>> No.19245274

>>19245259
Major publishing houses, like all major media companies, do not exist to make money. They exist to give their funders a way to manipulate culture.

>> No.19245283

>>19244388
wow i can't believe /pol/ just discovered what a *checks notes* editor is
the cultural marxist cabal taking over the publishing industry has been exposed

>> No.19245289

>>19245274
That’s just bullshit. These people have salaries and want to make money. This woke shit? It makes money. Your stack of shit first try at an incel novel after being a literal who from a state Uni who’s never published anything and in fact hardly written anything? It doesn’t make money. You don’t make dollars and so it doesn’t make sense. They don’t give a fuck about your or your shitty book beyond how much either line their pockets. It’s really that simple. None of these people complaining about the state of publishing write, let alone try to publish. So please, spare us the media ideologue culture reformer diatribe. The media wants to make cash. Period.

>> No.19245299

>>19245255
you just have to self publish and shill relentlessly. of course you need to have talent also which nearly all selfpubbers lack.

>> No.19245303

>>19245289
This isn't about "woke shit." Rupert Murdoch owns HarperCollins, for example. It is nice if these companies make money, but they can also keep losing as long as they remain useful.

>> No.19245307

>>19244527
kek hilarious and accurate. Will save this post.

>> No.19245310

>>19245289
Money has no meaning anymore, the people who just wanted to make money were so successful at making money that they created a permanent oligarchy and caste system for themselves, what we are experiencing now is their senile dementia as they have nothing to do and their children's children are inventing new sexualities to be degenerate hedonists with and channeling their unconscious self-hatred into "philanthrophy" by inventing subhuman freaks to patronize

>> No.19245313

>>19245283
this is not what an editor does. this is a committee of ideologues.

>> No.19245322

>>19245303
If you think Rupert Murdoch is in it to take $40M YoY losses to pat himself on the back over trannies or something, you’re delusional. Yes, they’re willing to sustain some losses but only because they still make money in the end.

>>19245310
I think you’re up your own ass over theory. These people want money. Period. You don’t make them shit so they have no incentive to publish you. It’s as simple as that.

>> No.19245323

>>19245289
"Woke" shit makes money because it gets marketed ad nauseam, so at some point the shit has to stick. That guy's novel would make money as well if it was picked up and marketed.

>> No.19245327

>>19245283
Sensitivity readers go before editing. They tell you to change your story and characters to make it HR friendly. They are more like old Hollywood censors that would make you clean immoral themes out of your script.

>> No.19245332

>>19245289
You underestimate just how much the elites believe in progressive liberalism. Your mental image of the greedy capitalist is a 20th century stereotype. Look at what is taught in schools, from primary to university. Do you think that has no impact? The new breed of elites are zealots.

>> No.19245336

>>19245323
Except it wouldn’t. If two novels are boring dog shit, one will get picked up by the managerial freaks and lumpenproles that anon referenced because it was a Latinx author or something and paraded around their bookshelves, and the other will never get purchased no matter how hard they market it. If his novel sucks, it sucks. Nobody is going to buy it.

>> No.19245342

>>19244527
The best/worst thing is the ridiculous Asian jewish transgender author is actually real and you didn’t just make it up.

>> No.19245349

>>19245332
I believe you are the one who has a mental image which is basically a bogeyman. They “believe” in whatever makes them money. BIPOC Feminist novels sell. Your novel doesn’t sell. You cannot deny this.

>> No.19245352
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19245352

do not fret, honor levy and the zoomer generation will captain us out of this era of woke shit and back into sizzling literature. have faith

>> No.19245354

>>19245322
You underestimate how unmoored these people are, they have been high on their own supply for years. There are many factions within the elite, and the purely cynical faction that only pushes degeneracy for tactical reasons always naively underestimates how susceptible its own ranks are to buying into the degeneracy unironically. They always assume that their own "people" are smart enough to run on pure self-interest like they are, and to only turn what is obviously a weapon (degeneracy propaganda) against what is obviously the enemy (the masses).

The oldest bluebloods were replaced by hip hybrid bluebloods in bluejeans, and now the hip hybrid bluejeans bluebloods have tranny sons and daughters. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. Oligarchies always sodomize themselves out of existence in the end.

>> No.19245361

>>19245352
https://twitter.com/SuburbanJihadi/status/1449050152790986761

Zoomers will have to be completely bypassed and a new generation of normal humans raised, zoomers are irredeemable. Zoomers are the first generation raised on pure internet, they aren't even individuals, they are a cloud network.

>> No.19245365

>>19245336
I don't think best sellers are necessarily amazing literary masterpieces. Most of them are mediocre just well marketed. That guy's hypothetical book could also be on this category. I don't see why not.

>> No.19245369

>>19245354
I think you over-estimate yourself.

This talk of what they’ll publish by people who don’t even write let alone publish, is at best an intellectual exercise in mediocre complainer ism and you know it. Beyond that, it’s pointless. The fact remains. This trash makes them money. What you want is for them to be Good Samaritan conservative publishers and give random nobodies who pen mediocre novels a shot for no reason and they’re obviously not going to do that. It would be great if they did, but this is the real world. You know how this shit works.

>> No.19245371

>>19245354
>Oligarchies always sodomize themselves out of existence in the end.
kek this was a good line

>> No.19245377

>>19245365
Yeah, I literally said both novels are dog shit…

But nobody is going to another nobody’s boring, mediocre book for no reason. Even though the other book is also trash, they have a reason to buy.

>> No.19245392

>>19245369
>This trash makes them money
It makes money through marketing not through sales. Books have been reduced to a niche hobby for young isolated men (which in no way does publishing pander too), and old women who read YA fiction and love consuming. I only know of a handful of books that were even published in the 2010s, and they're basically the last legs of writers I'm only familiar with, like Philip Roth's last novel, Pynchon's novel, Don Delilo's few, or Houllubecq's/Barth's but never read (the first 3)/read in-depth (Houllubecq/Barth).

>> No.19245397

>>19245289
>>19245303
>>19245322
>>19245336
>>19245349
I hear what you're saying and agree about the money part, but what about authors like Houellebecq? That guy's one of, if not the top selling author in France and Europe. Knaussguard is another example of a recent, rather politically conservative author. I can see that they're exceptions to the rule, but surely they indicate that there's a substantial market for non-woke fiction, right?
(And that's without mentioning the plethora of smaller genre writers who tackle insensitive topics head on, and afford a sustainable living - authors who I'm surprised /lit/ hasn't picked up on as potential literary 'role models' to emulate)

>> No.19245403

>>19244724
>every hipster on Twitter now has a PhD
that’s a joke by the way

>> No.19245406

>>19245377
>they have a reason to buy.
what would that be?

>> No.19245408

>>19245392
>I only know of a handful of books that were even published in the 2010s
your non-interest in literature is your own problem

>> No.19245411

>>19245397
See above>>19245392

The market calls for a bone to be thrown to some of it's consumers; hence Knasgaurd and Houllubecq will maintain some relevance as 'controversial' figures, and it's fitting they are both Europeans as Americans do not read. Vollmann would be another one.

>> No.19245413

>>19245408
no it's a problem of contemporary literature being astroturf garbage written by faggots for faggots, faggot

>> No.19245419

>>19245408
I'm not going to read or invest my time in woke book XYZ, find me an author directly influenced by Melville, Conrad, Hawthorne who is publishing books regularly in 2010s and not Sally Rooney trash.

>> No.19245431

>>19245397
People like Peter Hitchens were grandfathered in while people like Houellebecq are not subject to the same critical social justice scrutiny that Anglos are. Young conservative authors are astroturfed neoconservatives (Shapiro) or internet e-celebs who eventually wrote a book and sold it to a pre-existing following (BAP).

>> No.19245432

>>19245397
What about him? He sells books. Simple as that. And let’s also consider that we’re talking about America and I suppose English publishing here. French publishing is a bit different.

But to the question of if there’s a market, yes. Of course there’s a market. I don’t know what that market looks like in America or how big it is, but it surely exists. But again, just because a market exists doesn’t mean you’ll make money in it. What anon (not any one specific anon but anon who complains about this sort of thing) wants is to be the walk-on nobody state Uni graduate who’s never published anything and, in fact, scarcely written anything with no particular draw or purchase appeal to get miraculously published by a big name publisher out of the good grace of their own heart in order to give him a chance, even though, his book is truly mediocre and almost no one will buy the thing. Now you tell me if you think that’s pie in the sky delusional.

The only people who are buying books in America are women and woke idiots. So that’s what gets sold. So to talk of conspiracies and all sorts of other things are just pointless until that’s no longer the case.

>> No.19245441

>>19245411
>Vollmann would be another one.
The cross dressing transsexual sympathizer who wrote a book about oppressed Latinx immigrants? Yeah, really reactionary that one…

>> No.19245450

>>19245406
To put it on their shelf to show during Zoom meetings and talk about at book club.

>> No.19245452

>>19245441
That's all true, but he'd still be another one in the current state of things, obviously to a much lesser extent.

>> No.19245460

>>19245397
They're European. It's different over there than in the US.

>> No.19245463

>>19245452
Don’t see how. His biggest sellers are about fighting climate change and said oppressed Latinx. He doesn’t fit the bill at all. His first book was sympathetic to the Taliban. Everything after has been borderline liberal concern authorship.

>> No.19245466

>>19245413
cope
>>19245419
>find me
how about you do the work yourself you absolute dildo. your gay boilerplate whinging shows that you're only looking at the NYT bestseller list/goodreads main page recs or intentionally ignoring smaller, more niche publishers because bitching on 4chan makes your little wet brain feel better than reading. either way you have, as i plainly stated, no interest in literature, so quit complaining

>> No.19245467

>>19245432
Woke books don't actually sell as well as they appear, the numbers are cooked by HR departments buying them in bulk IIRC. Once that author gets "NYT best seller" next to his name he can begin selling talks, while the HR workers can create materials that justify their paycheck.

>> No.19245475

>>19245466
Why do you guys never just post books you like lol.

>> No.19245477
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19245477

>unironically using "Latinx"
Am I on twitter? What's going on here?

>> No.19245483

>>19245467
They sell more than the mediocre incelcore novels that anon is hawking. I can promise you that.

Look, I’m not saying they have no ideological interest in pushing these things and excluding other authors. They obviously do. But at the end of the day, it’s about money.

>> No.19245485
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19245485

>>19245466
tranny writing style, hahahaha actual tranny i see you

>uhhh if i act really saucy and sassy maybe he'll think my chiding has substance
it doesn't, tranny! hahahahha!

>> No.19245489
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19245489

>>19244399
There are many: Antelope Hill, Arktos, Mystery Grove, etc

>> No.19245491

>>19245477
Those were ironic, my ESL friend.

>> No.19245493

>>19245463
Because he's an edgy abberant character that could channel disillusioned young men back into basic-bitch Amazon loving shitlibs through his personality. He's a figure a young isolated man would relate to and ultimately come around to the politics of the other side.

Houllubecq offers no solutions to them, and ultimately is purely nihilistic. More interesting to read and obviously my preferred of the two, but if the market for reading is young disillusioned men with no sense in this modern structure, someone like Vollmann could reassure them. I also barely read anything post WW2, so what do I know.

Thoughts on Barth, David Gates, Gass, Pynchon, Roth's 2010 works if you've read them? Mildly curious about the current state of literature among authors I could see myself enjoying.

>> No.19245494

>>19245491
Thank God.

>> No.19245498

>>19245466
Just post a fucking book Jesus Christ, either way it's not being shilled in the fore-front, I never even complain about modern publishing in general.

>> No.19245502

>>19245483
>They sell more than the mediocre incelcore novels that anon is hawking. I can promise you that.
How would you know? Have they even tried selling "incelcore" novels?

>> No.19245504

>>19245475
because you're not going to read them. because whatever it is you're going to look it up on google books, screencap the first page and post it here with a greentext of its synopsis, call it shilling and keep spilling your vagina all over the place like you've won an argument epic stylee, because that's what this ultimately means for you

>> No.19245507

>>19245493
Read very little of them and am not particularly interested. Was interested in Vollmann for a time but that faded. I like Houllebecq but agree. Just don’t think he sets out to give solutions. Sorry I can’t give you more than that.

>> No.19245509

>>19244527
this is cap worthy

>> No.19245520

>>19245502
Why would they try to sell a mediocre-at-best novel which has no selling point and exists for a target demographic which does not read?

>> No.19245521

>>19245504
Its honestly uncanny how you always, always refuse to just name some books you like in the category you're talking about. I have seen this happen so many times this exact scenario of someone saying "you just dont read contemporary literature" and then absolutely refusing to name any.

>> No.19245527

>>19245520
couldn't incelcore lit work on a wider scale like old school shock books did, like american psycho?

>> No.19245530

>>19245354
>Oligarchies always sodomize themselves out of existence in the end
very true, evil eats itself in the end and all that.

>> No.19245539

>>19245483
I'm not disagreeing. The generic "postmodern diary of an incel burnout" that the average /lit/izen writes for his first novel is probably not especially interesting, but you seem to be implying they would publish somebody's work if it was actually good. A modern equivalent to Moby Dick or any of the classic 20th century American novels would be unpublishable today because literature has become a therapeutic industry. It is deep into Young Adultification.

>> No.19245541

>>19245527
Doubt it. Who are you going to sell to? Bret Easton Ellis appealed to roughly the same crowd Donna Tartt appealed to. The anon consumer base is non-existent. We’re like a dent in the consumer base at best. Young American males by and large do not read. At all.

>> No.19245547

>>19245507
Don't get me wrong, Vollmmann is terrible and out-of-touch, just listen to his vapid interviews along with Roth and Delilo.

>not particularly interested
Neither am I would rather finish complete works of authors I love, but still feel like I should read a few 2010 books, so I'll try Barths since it looks the best.

>>19245504
Meh, Idc about being right. Barth and Herbert Gold's 2010 novels and David Gates' Short story collection I'll read at some point, but it took me awhile to find them. My point was an author who loves the author's I love is hard to find nowadays; but sure they exist.

>> No.19245551

>>19245539
I’m implying that until these novels are actually good, it’s a totally useless thing to complain about. I would also remind you that Melville published multiple books and short stories which he considered low brow and wasn’t himself particularly invested in before he published Moby Dick, which was not at all well received in his lifetime anyway.

>> No.19245578

>>19245541
Men of any age don't read at all. At best they start reading when they are retired. Women make up the majority of book buyers in every genre except war fiction (mostly male readers and writers) and non-fiction (close to 50/50, but still favors men slightly).

>> No.19245580

>>19245541
>Young American males by and large do not read. At all.
publishers are petrified of books that young american males would actually read. so obviously if the only books that get published are by faggots, jews, niggers, trannies and womyn then they're not going to show up in the sales figures

>> No.19245583

>>19245551
Yes, but the sort of lowbrow fiction that a lot of classic American authors cut their teeth on has a modern incarnation in the form of scifi and YA literature... which are even more activist dominated than "respectable literature."
I guess the modern equivalent would be a right wing twitter celebrity with a substack that eventually gets picked up by some minor paleocon publisher. I think, eventually, all major books will be published by people who were social media famous beforehand. Reclusive authors will no longer stand a chance.

>> No.19245589

>>19245583
>all major books will be published by people who were social media famous beforehand
This is how the Jewish media complex is recovering from the death of celebrityism, they know nobody gives a fuck about celeb bullshit anymore so they are tapping the semi-spontaneous (but highly cancerous) growth that is social media "clout" culture. Every zoomer now wants to be an e-celeb.

Wasn't there some thing about how, when children are asked what they want to be when they grow up, they say "streamer" or "youtuber?"

>> No.19245591

>>19245551
>considered low brow
lol have you even read those books he considered 'low-brow,' they are not your schlocky 4chan F. Gardner tier low-brow by any stretch of the imagination.

But that is a good point, all his poetry, which is masterful imo was self-published.

>> No.19245594

>>19245578
Is that true of classics as well? Also doesnt factor in reading pdfs and stuff

>> No.19245605

>>19245594
It also doesn't factor in non-quantitative, i.e., qualitative factors. One serious reader is worth a thousand readers of potboiler pap. Some of the most historically significant literary circles and journals in history have had memberships of a few hundred or a few thousand people, sometimes even smaller.

Sometimes literally one guy can spark a cultural revolution.

>> No.19245607

>>19245580
More like, the publishing industry realized that women read/buy more books than men, so cater to them. This in turn pushed more men away from modern books and has lead to publishers to hard focus even more on women. Now they argue with each other in the Guardian over where all the men went and whether or not they even need them.

>> No.19245609

>>19245521
authors directly influenced by melville/conrad/hawthrone is such a specific and bizarre order that i cannot help you there. in my mind literature doesn't work that way. if you're interested, however, i'd be happy to recommend you some good books (or, more accurately, books i read and liked a great deal) in general

>> No.19245614

>>19245607
The push was primarily ideological and even legal not monetary

>> No.19245621

>>19245580
>publishers are petrified of books that young american males would actually read.
and what are those? another mike ma-penned epic white guy joint?

>> No.19245623

>>19245594
This is true of newly published books. Classics sell well enough to continue to be published and I'm fairly certain authors like Tolkein still outsell new fantasy writers. There was recently a woman who went on a rant that it's unfair that she has to compete for shelf space with Tolkein and Robert Jordan.

>> No.19245625

>>19245609
I wasn't the Melville guy, though I see why you would think that, I just popped into the conversation. And yes I would be interested in which books you like from recent years. I'm not going to go get a synopsis and mock you for it, at most I'll download a copy and read the first chapter to see what it is.

>> No.19245638
File: 1.50 MB, 1224x5437, Romance Writers of America.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19245638

>>19245614
From what I've read, the romance genre more or less props up the entire publishing industry, so yes it's monetary. Just because it's not wildly profitable doesn't mean they don't base their decisions on profit. Just means they suck at running a business.

>> No.19245642

>>19245625
I'm the Melville guy, and am ignoring the other guy because he seems very stupid, but I have been looking into 2010 books recently and the 3 I want to check out are:

>Herbert Gold
When a Psychopath Falls in Love

>John Barth
Every Third Thought: A Novel in Five Seasons

>David Gates
A Hand Reached Down to Guide Me (2015)

Haven't read any so cannot attest to the quality, but these are the 3 that interested me.

>> No.19245653

>>19245583
So what’s your point? Melville was a good author. The modern sci-fi and fantasy writers are not. Thus, the latter relies on shtick and politicking to make sales. Even those better authors of the genre view the art essentially as product, not as a work of art or even a story or a novel.

>>19245591
What I’m trying to drive home is not that Melville wrote garbage. It’s rather than I’m trying to drive home the ultimately true reality, that these people have no incentive to publish a nobody pushing a mediocre novel that has no market. Even Melville had to make a name for himself writing popular stuff before he could write Moby Dick. Now, I’m not suggesting anon could write a modern Moby Dick either. I’m only suggesting that nobodies with no selling point and no track record don’t get published. It’s really that simple. So even if this other stuff about ideology is true, it’s totally worthless to even talk about because what is desired as alternative is just delusional.

>> No.19245682

>>19245289
>publishing
>money
It’s all a money laundering scheme mixed with glowies needing a mouthpiece, anon.

>> No.19245685

>>19245653
>What I’m trying to drive home is not that Melville wrote garbage. It’s rather than I’m trying to drive home the ultimately true reality, that these people have no incentive to publish a nobody pushing a mediocre novel that has no market. Even Melville had to make a name for himself writing popular stuff before he could write Moby Dick. Now, I’m not suggesting anon could write a modern Moby Dick either. I’m only suggesting that nobodies with no selling point and no track record don’t get published. It’s really that simple. So even if this other stuff about ideology is true, it’s totally worthless to even talk about because what is desired as alternative is just delusional.
The true reality is these people don't even enjoy writing nor have any desire to improve on their skill. You can write with or without being published, most of your readers will be dumb anyway and making a living as a professional writer with no other life has never interested me, especially being now in my mid-20s. I'd rather explore my favorite authors and write in their spirit and find my own style and work to improve it rather than concern myself with making a profit. I will finish my novel at some point over the several years and have no desire to submit it to publishing. It's a strange thing to worry about imo, especially when self-publishing is more easy than ever, and I will hope to be financially viable in a more lucrative field than writing, which is just something I do so my reading doesn't go to waste, albeit feels like much more than a hobby to me.

>> No.19245690

>>19245625
ok, here are five americans (?) i liked very much from the last decade

>blake butler - alice knott
>joshua mattson - a short film about disappointment
>atticus lish - preparation for the next life
>ottessa moshfegh - mcglue
>ashleigh bryant phillips - sleepovers

>> No.19245727

>>19245690
Ty for responding, I appreciate it. I'll check out the books

>> No.19245735

>>19245685
I’m not sure if you need to “like” it. I’m not sure if I do. Otherwise, yeah I can sympathize with this.

>> No.19245747

>>19245690
Wannabe alt lit scene efaggot peripherally connected to 2-3 of these people and vaguely remembers hearing the other 2-3 discussed.

>>19245727
Don't. You are being rused by a tourist who hates 4chan but wants "it" to like them for some reason.

>> No.19245760

Bolaño started writing in his early 20s, went from job to job but writing all the time, and wasn't published by a relevant house until his early 40s. I think you guys can make it too :) publishing can come later.

>> No.19245776

>>19245735
If The Epicurean - Thomas Moore and Love's Cross Currents - Swinburne and Weeds and Wildings - Melville have a combined 16 ratings on goodreads, and I know I will never write anything as good as those three works, then it is absolutely meaningless to me if I'm ever published. I mean how many people have read The Marble Faun or Blithedale Romance or The World of Williams Clissold or The Arrow of Gold that are currently living or even plan to read them. Facts like that make it worthless to me if I'm ever published or acknowledged when so many great works that have touched me will simply never be read or remembered 100 years from now.

>> No.19245782

>>19245760
>started writing in his early 20s

>> No.19245783

>>19245776
>The Arrow of Gold
I plan to read that and all of Conrad's work :)

>> No.19245786

>>19245783
good!

>> No.19245794

>>19245776
I think the terrible truth is that there was a time when great works could be created, they could be published, they could be appreciated by a culture and even move a culture, but that time is gone and no one cares but a small number. You should perhaps write for yourself and a small collective of insiders. It’s like you say. Some of the greatest writers of the last century, which for us are well understood, remain perhaps known at most but not read by the public, not even by the bourgeois minority.

>> No.19245801

>>19245727
nice. thanks for being cool about the naming of a few titles, unlike the guy below
>>19245747
finally, the panting maniac cuts to the chase. projection and paranoia. is it very important to you that this board keeps a certain pool of "permitted" books? you're beneath even a janny; a crypto-janny. funnily enough you strike me as the "tourist" here, because you treat literature the same way /mu/ treats music

>> No.19245808

>>19245794
Yeah it's why I hate posting on here and complaining when there's so much to read lol. It can be discouraging hahha, but I have many years to read all I want to.

>> No.19245816

>>19245801
It's not paranoia to spot a faggot. I am not saying those books aren't permitted either. You can read whatever garbage you like. In fact, since you recommended them to pose anonymously as someone who has read them, you should indeed probably read them.

But you will still be a faggot. You will die tweeting alone.

>> No.19245833

>>19244388 yes see >>19245600

>> No.19245835

>>19245411
>>19245431
>>19245432
>>19245460
Why wouldn't one make money in that market if it exists? That part is still unclear to me. I hear what the one anon is saying about the mediocre state-uni writer etc not making it, but let's say that there's an actually talented incel author with a distinctive voice and so on. Why wouldn't that author be published if there are people who would theoretically want to read the kind of work he makes? Again, I hear you about the woke component, but that's a different market.

I mean, someone could surely just look up whoever is publishing Houellebecq in the states, right? And then there are guys like Ben Brooks - I don't like the guy by any means, but he writes transgressive edgy fiction about bukakes and lolis and shit like that. Who's publishing these dudes? Who are their agents? Why are we forgetting that they exist and are currently releasing new work?

Even a guy like S. Craig Zahler, the film director who got started writing novels (without having ever published any short stories or gone to any graduate program) about women being brutally raped by cowboys. I mean, if this dude could get published and establish a substantial following - enough to make a living - then I don't see why the edgelords on /lit/ couldn't either.

All I'm saying is, I don't believe the publishing business is as narrow as we're making it out to be. I think we're neglecting some corners of it in which weird incel degenerates thrive.

>> No.19245839

>>19245816
>since you recommended them to pose anonymously as someone who has read them
why do you say this?

>> No.19245857

Why are you retards so fixated on the “mediocre state uni” idea anyway, how many of the world’s greatest writers came out of some university literature department? Basically none. Most of them just read a shit-ton as kids and then started writing on their own.

>> No.19245861

>>19245839
Because I know your type and I know reading those things brings you no actual joy. It's a mix of things you vaguely intend to read and may have gotten a quarter way through at most, things you picked up out of obligation because some podcast or friend was talking about them and momentarily doing a better job than you of acting like someone who reads them organically, and things you know about because you're peripherally connected to the "scene" surrounding it. And I bet you still had to google and poke around Tyrant's catalogue before deciding on the ideal organic-sounding list of books you theoretically enjoy.

In short, Twitter disease.

>> No.19245865

>>19245001
This retard's "poetry" is what led to abominations like Rupi Kaur. Arguably, Kaur is an improvement

>> No.19245874

>>19245835
it's because the children on this board can only conceive of literary "success" (or even the faintest pleasure) if it comes in the form of big vulgar harry potter monies or centuries-old acclaim, tucked safe and warm into a pee-smelling canon. they're even more shallow than the people they shit on, and you're absolutely right. a well-written "incel" novel would be a sensation across the board, it's arguably the hottest issue of our time

>> No.19245924

>>19245865
>Arguably, Kaur is an improvement
Nah, the book has better imagery.

>> No.19245928

>>19245924
the Buk*

>> No.19245944

>>19245861
sure, many of the new-ish books i pick up leave me cold around thirty pages in. very little gold. but this time you're wrong. i am not on twitter, nor am i part of any "scene" (i'm not even american/canadian/bongian). sadly, none of my friends have read a book since middle school. i have no connections to publishing/entertainment industries anywhere on the planet or elsewhere. i am not a huge fan of tyrant, though i was sad to see the main guy pass away earlier this year. and i have never found a literary podcast that i can stand, but if you have any recommendations go ahead. i'm not totally sure what reading organically is, but if some part of it includes checking out whatever interests you and giving it a fair shake then that's what i'm striving for and enjoy doing

>> No.19245947

>>19245835
>Why wouldn't that author be published if there are people who would theoretically want to read the kind of work he makes?
Depends on if he submited his work to be published or not. You don't even need to be good to be published or bad to be denied. /Lit/ also doesn't read fyi.

>> No.19245950

>>19245489
Shilling doesn't make you /lit/.

>> No.19245954

>>19245621
interesting example. Mike Ma's debut novel has 752 reviews on amazon. which is the sort of organic buzz which a publisher would immediately try and snap up, if the entire industry wasn't fake, gay and forced

>> No.19245959

>>19245874
Yeah I think you're right. In my humble opinion, being able to sell a novel and make a living off of it would absolutely mean you're "successful" - not necessarily just becoming the next Sally Roony memed Twitter author.

Like, people here should look at the best-selling novels in America since the 1800s. IIRC there was a brief, *brief* period when Faulkner and Hemingway dominated in the postwar period, but every time else, it's been women's fiction. That's nothing new. Hell, it wasn't even new in Hawthorne's time, when he wrote about his own work being overshadowed by "scribbling women". People should stop being so pessimistic and trying to account their lack of literary success to some secret scheming cabal, since this is simply how the game has worked for hundreds of years.

Again, I'm 100% certain that if your average /lit/izen wrote multiple hours every day, studied their craft, and put their soul into a work, they would get published. That doesn't mean you try to publish your meandering incel diary or your 300,000 word avant garde response to Finnegan's Wake. That means you find a marketable genre to work in (western / horror / crime / bizzaro are a few ones that young edgy men buy), learn to write compelling characters, come up with great drama and unique concepts, and perfect your prose. If you work at it, and over time develop your own voice, I'm pretty certain you'll get published and paid for your writing.

Those are my two cents. I genuinely hope that anyone who is serious about writing keeps going at it and one day makes it.

>> No.19245973

>>19245954
And Mike could become a decent writer one day if his soul wasn't a cesspit.

>> No.19245979

Just watch this or Canada Reads
https://www.cbc.ca/books/new-documentary-series-celebrating-canadian-literature-to-air-on-cbc-gem-1.6203091

You think 90% of authors are women and immigrants without major intervention? It's the same as journalists where they do not hire white males and have quotas for showing a certain percentage of immigrants and blacks.
And no, throwing in a gay ultra-liberal man doesn't count as men having a voice.

>> No.19245991

>>19245954
>organic buzz
lmao. All those guys use the Chinese review scam.

>> No.19245993

>>19245959
One other thought that came to me: read J.G. Ballard's autobiography recently, and was surprised at how similar his 20s were to those of a lot of anons here. He wanted to be a writer, couldn't get any of his edgy short stories published, then he wanted to be the next Joyce so he wrote some giant ass Finnegan's Wake novel that nobody liked or wanted to read. In his late 20s he discovered sci-fi, started writing for an audience, and developed his own abrasive experimental style from within that genre. It wasn't until his thirties that he was able to make a sustainable living off of writing.

>> No.19246000

>>19245979
apologies if i'm wrong, but by your tone i presume you haven't read anything on that list; why do they not appeal to you, anon, and what books/authors would you like to see instead?

>> No.19246006

>>19244527
>He is open and vulnerable throughout, even choosing to reveal his birth name.
Kek'd

>> No.19246008

>>19245835
He would, but no such person exists and neither does the market in any substantial capacity. If you’ve received the impression that it’s a lucrative market, you misunderstand. The market can be said to exist, but is so small as to be insignificant. If they do exist and are currently tapping into the market, which is unlikely, we simply don’t know about them. Again, recall that Moby Dick wasn’t appreciated until long after it was published. This “‘market” may as well not exist, although it does, in fact, exist.

>> No.19246012

>>19244532
>
where can i download a free version?

>> No.19246016

>>19245874
You’re completely delusional. A well-written incel novel would sell across the board? Not even fucking close. There is zero interest in this in America. None. Houllebecq wrote a book about Schopenhauer which was read by French academics. American academics don’t even know who Schopenhauer is and are allergic to his pessimism. They’re not interested.

>> No.19246017

>>19245342
Who is it?

>> No.19246018

>>19246012
on leeg

>> No.19246020

>>19245954
And if he wasn’t explicitly reactionary, how many people would care? Anyone?

>> No.19246027

>>19246008
It seems you're crossing some threads (equating the lack of success of hypothetical modern incel author to Melville's lack of success). I'm not making the claim that there's a market specifically for books by/about incels, i.e. modern dating - even if guys like Houllebecq are literary sensations. I'm asking if there are markets for edgier fiction aimed at men. The success of certain American authors today suggests that that's so.

>> No.19246034

>>19246027
I did not equate that and I said plainly that the market may as well not exist.

>> No.19246041

>>19246016
>A well-written incel novel would sell across the board?
yes, i believe a lurid book drummed up as THE incel novel would be as big as adult fiction can get in this day and age. maybe something like an internet-era take on fowles' collector, multiple perspectives. would its publication involve lots of buzzwords and hype and gay thinkpieces that turn /lit/ users off? yes. would it be good, enduring art? probably not, but who knows
>Houllebecq wrote a book about Schopenhauer
and it wasn't a hit?! quelle surprise

>> No.19246044

>>19246041
I think it would probably be an enormous flop of a novel. Also, you totally missed the point about Houllebecq and Schopenhauer.

>> No.19246056

>>19246041
kys

>> No.19246060

>>19246044
what was the point about Houellebecq and Schop? not him btw

>> No.19246066

>>19246044
well what was the point then. besides, wellbeck's islam book was 'big'
>>19246056
and who are you

>> No.19246068

>>19246034
Well I'd be interested to know why not, since I can list numerous American authors who make a sustainable living off of transgressive "literary" fiction aimed at men. That's the only sense of a market that i'm talking about.

>> No.19246071

>>19246066
>wellbeck's islam book was 'big'
***and was big worldwide mainly because of controversial elements, real or perceived. which an incel book could be

>> No.19246072

>>19246020
books by black women are also available

>> No.19246074

>>19246060
That what gets read in Europe doesn’t get read over here. His Schopenhauer book doesn’t need to be a best seller to be talked about, known. Americans are totally allergic to such books and these figures and would not care to even talk about them, and they don’t. There is absolutely no interest whatsoever.

>> No.19246076

>>19244388
>has the US _____ gone to shit
yes

>> No.19246077

>>19246066
Nobody needs an 'incel' novel, when Houllubecq wrote Whatever. Men moping around because they can't get laid instead of channeling their passions into more productive outlets, like Lovecraft did with his fiction is the last thing we need. A Male feminist novel would be written best by a woman if anything, since the main focus would be sympathy otherwise it's just re-writing Whatever without the philosophical ramblings.

Also, subject doesn't matter, prose/conveyance does.

>> No.19246079
File: 218 KB, 780x1170, book-cover-full-metal-indigiqueer-by-joshua-whitehead.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19246079

>>19245979
Holy based.

>> No.19246080

>>19244527
>When you say "I want to get published!" you are basically saying "I want some rich JeWASP's fashionably bisexual hapa/blapa daughter with the twitter where all she does is bitch about antivaxxers and 'indigenous voices' to like my manuscript!!!"
Goddamn this is one of the best quotes I've read on 4chan in a while.

>> No.19246082
File: 532 KB, 1000x800, tony-tulathimutte_credit-lydia-white-copy.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19246082

>>19246041
>>19246044
>>19246071
>>19246077
Pic related is in the process of writing the great incel novel as we speak.

>> No.19246084

>>19246077
>Male feminist
I meant to say an incel novel would probably be about a male feminist type anyway not a true incel.

>> No.19246114

>>19246077
>needs
well, if there's a question of *that*...

a lot of time has passed since whatever. leaps in technology and how humans relate to each other. the incel as we know him now springs from these developments, and the big incel novel would also have to (brace yourself) deal with the internet. that there is a rather large weight on the shoulders of this hypothetical book's hypothetical author, but the payoff would be huge
>Also, subject doesn't matter, prose/conveyance does.
for good literature i agree, it takes an artist. but subject sells, which was what i was talking about. valley of the dolls, lolita, american psycho; the back cover 'blurb' or reviewer's plot rundown matters

>> No.19246122

>>19246114
see >>19246082
We're going to see it within the next five years. The time is absolutely ripe. Check out his short story The Feminist if you want a taste.

>> No.19246123
File: 137 KB, 1200x644, 1621004331781.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19246123

>>19244532
Should have used this as the cover.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVTN5iCXrkk

>> No.19246138

>>19246122
>The Feminist
i didn't like that one, too one-sided and frankly on-the-nose. if he wants to succeed, he must go deeper. way deeper, perhaps past the point of no return. the great hazard of writing the big incel novel is that one becomes the incel

>> No.19246139
File: 302 KB, 704x512, 1610502945517.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19246139

>>19244527
So if you are a writer and you have aspirations of writing something truly great, on the scale of Moby-Dick or War & Peace, what should you do with it when it's done?

>> No.19246143

>>19246139
>when it's done

>> No.19246168

>>19244455
Kek, where would I find a pdf of this?

>> No.19246199

>>19245197
Tell me more about this elite overproduction. Do Diversity Officers exist because of some mechanism other than it being lucrative for the individual job holders?

>> No.19246227

>>19246139
Buck the trend and Break the mold

>> No.19246245
File: 49 KB, 640x614, 1633050438683.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19246245

Anon Classics could easily rival Wordsworth and Dover with a little effort.
>but we need investment
Nope, all the books would be printed by KDP
>but copyright!
like Wordsworth we'd make new editions of out of print works with nice distinctive but minimal art like Gallimard
no one would gain any credit for it (except anon) and all money made would go to an animal charity

>> No.19246250

...but no meme crap like Anon Annotates Moby Dick or anon's own crappy novel (that's literally just a loser trying to piggyback 4chan hype for their own ends)

>> No.19246255

>>19246199
Are you trolling? Do you think HR jobs were "lucrative for the individual job holders" in any particular sense on their introduction? These Diversity Officers you see earning big bucks today, they are a product of decades of wageslaves slaving away in the HR departments, common shrews and fat wimps with no prospects or ambitions besides bossing a better and more competent category of wageslave.
And yes, the HR department may have been profitable for the corps, but given that HR is responsible for hiring and firing employees this managerial venture was destined to take on a life of its own.

>> No.19246260

>>19246255
And I should add, even if every big institution has a diversity officer in its employ this only represents a small proportion of the activist class from which they are recruited.
The zealots preceded the positions that were created for them

>> No.19246353

>>19245397
knausgård isn’t a conservative you fucking mong

>> No.19246394

You've had to be living under a rock to be unaware of the absolute shambles the publishing industry is in. Not just in terms of wokeness, but also the all encompassing assault on language itself. Adverbs is almost outlawed by publishers because reasons.

It's all about selling books to the masses. It has to be "in tune with the times" and easily digestible. Art is out of the picture. There is only consumption. Prose is dead.

>> No.19246401

>>19245001
https://youtu.be/oovDpLHCrSw

>> No.19246403

>>19246353
>knausgård isn’t a conservative you fucking mong
he's far to the right of that

>> No.19246407

>>19246403
is a run of the mill nordic socdem

>> No.19246457

>>19246017
Chella Man, professional twink.

>> No.19246488
File: 22 KB, 523x587, 1626068091402.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19246488

>>19246407
Ah yes, a Nordic Socialist.

>> No.19246491

>>19245392
>It makes money through marketing not through sales.
Marketing costs money, your point makes no sense

>> No.19246537

>>19245594
No one actually reads classics in numbers that would be in any way, shape, matter, or form relevant. Entire collection of classics is basically a miniscule portion of the margin of error bar in market studies.

>> No.19246570

>>19246227
burn it, this world doesn't deserve anything beautiful

>> No.19246584

>>19244388
Publishing has always been a shitshow where you sell trite garbage to middle-aged women, trying to confirm their biases as hard as possible so they claim the book is good and recommend it to their friends in order to further spread their biases through proxy.

At no point in history, ever, has it had anything to do with any literary merit - real or imagined.

>> No.19246704

A light man was sitting in the street. Covered in sweat and tears, listening to the bleak arrival of a new spring. Through the windows the abandoned homes peered out, and from there the whole of the world watched – in mourning with this lonely man.
Another man, not as light, had just been run down, chased away by all that he had forgotten, and the infinity of lives lost to him. The sad cry of the dead man could be heard pulsating from beneath the streets. As soldiers in step, and the grinding clatter of manhole covers, the sound of everything leading up to this point drifted in. It was a death that arrived like food carried into the last cell of a prison. Echoes of memory poured out of the corpse, from his arms and toes, as well as his head. His bare soles were painted black. To someone he had been something, anything. But now he lay abandoned by the world. Even though it had crushed him, betrayed the peaceful security beneath his ribs, and all that he felt was true and right from within that lonely place. What could anyone do with such a world, except make it his own?
The lighter man tried to get up, sobbing – not only for himself and all the others who escaped this terror, but for what the world was about to witness. "This dead man would come to life again," he promised to himself. "Even if I have to paint his face on every last street corner and everything barren in between."
The whole of the world would peer out and gasp, "What could this young men have been? If only he had been given a chance to prove himself..." The world echoes in the sins of the father only to make right what he could not be.

>> No.19246711

>>19246704
It was here that Fal'un de Parisienne realised how everything had gone wrong. Or perhaps she had always known this, as with the years leading up to the mysterious disappearance of her father – only now it was unmistakable. She was resigned to this life, but everything in it remained winnable. This turn of events only proved it.
The sobbing man covered in tears caught her eye, and she thought she recognised him, but did not call out. "A man must be left to his tears, it can only strengthen him. As before..."
Small groups of young men streamed past her, the flashing lights painted their jumping and yelping with staccato rhythms. Shots rang out in the distance, along with the ringing and trickling of windows shattering. Police stormed through, but their shadows remained, reflected on the walls as the grim darkness they truly were – what only these streets could know. Trails of blood followed them, for their feet were not bare. They glistened over what they trampled through. Glass shards flickered in the flaming light like diamonds, and the empty store-shelves were smouldering, as if in prayer for every hand that had ever passed over them. Empty shoeboxes were strewn along the sidewalks, and old scuffed shoes lay scattered all over; in some cases separated from their pair. It was as if they had been torn from men in flight. Some were so far off from one another that they had met others, and in their grief were tied together – they hung themselves in the telephone wires, like lovers taken by suicide. But overall a crystalline appearance gave hope to this grim world. And despite being covered in tears there remained places where jubilation could still overcome its mourning. For peace is as neverending as justice is blind, and here the streets knew they were lucky to be alive.

>> No.19246715

>>19246711
Parisienne felt the vibrations of the world kicking at her hip. She took out her phone and swiped left, then right several times. She peered into the vibrant darkness, contemplating the long night and life ahead of her. Who could share it with her? Who could find her in this cold and lonely night? And who might she save in thanks for her being found? Long ago, in her first youthfulness, she had asked God to find her a good and honest man to marry. This was in that short term when boys separate themselves from girls, then return to show off all the foolishness they had learned. "Girls knew this all along," she had told herself. "Marriage is only for those with the smallest dreams. I want a man to find me and then to have found only that he must abandon all hope."
But all this was far removed from the moment. And for now she could only follow the scattered paths of shoes, the endless possibilities of a world just now opening up before itself – vulnerable and calm like the tears of a boy returning to his mother with cut knees.
Already the face of the dead man was painting itself into the stone walls of the streets. Towering over life, an ugliness made beautiful. "Oh Father, look what you made me do. Even the stones cry in their searching. Where did you go? Why did you leave?"
But it was all too late for this. And indecision has no place in a woman. Fal'un de Parisienne had to get to the airport and hand over the ticket stamped with her name. All of the great things this world loses it gains in respite and the birth of hidden feelings revealed in new places.

>> No.19246775

>>19246704
blah

>> No.19246834

>>19245865
>This retard's "poetry" is what led to abominations like Rupi Kaur.
I used to like Bukowski but I had to admit this. I no longer like him.

>> No.19246850

>>19245954
>752
Come on now.

>> No.19246859

>>19244388
>Has x gone to shit
If you trust this site then yes

>> No.19246862

>>19245835
You described people who are writing a certain type of thing that isn't very different from porn. You wouldn't use this argument, "hey there are people who make money selling fucked up piss n' shit porn, surely there's room for you as an auteur!" yes they are getting published exactly because there's a market. It's edgy entertainment, politically incorrect stuff, w/e people who are into this just swallow that shit. If you want to do something that is somewhat inspired but doesn't have a foot into one big demographic (degenerates are a huge demographic) there's no market, and more generally, nobody will care. The fact that there's a controlled outlet for "shocking" content doesn't mean much.

>> No.19247494
File: 137 KB, 679x383, Screen Shot 2021-10-18 at 13.44.42.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19247494

>>19244388
i was the anon who posted that post in your picture. i was phoneposting so didn't link the link, but here it is if you want to read it
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10099271/Will-sensitivity-readers-make-books-woke-no-one-enjoy-again.html

>> No.19247585

>>19244388
My friend is a journalist and she told me there are actually officers in charge of most media companies that review everything a journalist writes before it goes out and they ok it or send it back if it doesn't meet the politically correct guidelines, basically to do with idpol shit. This includes absolutely everything. Even if you write about a natural disaster, you must meet the idpol requirements or their compliance officer won't let you publish.

>> No.19247586

>>19247494
>dailymail
unironically kys

>> No.19247617

>>19247494
american dirt has 360k ratings on goodreads, how the fuck is that book canceled?

>> No.19247633

>>19244455
>romans were notoriously poor sailors

made me chuckle

>> No.19247681
File: 16 KB, 360x360, Colonel_hapablap.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19247681

>>19244527
>hapa/blapa

>> No.19247741

>>19244527
hehehehehe. excellent post anon, liked and subscribed.

>> No.19247764

>>19246012
>>19246168
Hello newfriends
https://b-ok.xyz/book/16823261/3ced60?id=16823261&secret=3ced60

>> No.19247789

>>19245865
Kaur's primarily a social media phenomenon who successfully conned a bunch of girls into buying her books.

>> No.19247919

>>19247764

It's lit

>> No.19247921

>>19247586
get a grip faggot.

>>19247617
article says it was hyped up and Oprah certified then someone said a white woman can't write about mexicans crossing the rio grande because it is exploitation, so no one gave it any more exposure. it would have been a million seller but it died on a tweet.

>> No.19247965

>>19246245
>go to an animal charity
No, this animal rights faggotry is cringe. All money made should be donated to a charity that runs domestic violence shelters for men.

>> No.19247976

>>19247965
that’s even more faggy

>> No.19247984

>>19244527
based and redpilled

>> No.19247985

>>19245197
Does this mean that I can't have words like "retard" in my story even if it's intentionally being used as a slur by an antagonist?

>> No.19248050
File: 32 KB, 579x172, =d9fpo1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19248050

>>19247764
Fucking lel

>> No.19248086

>>19247985
Use the Joyce defence and claim you are indirectly exerting a positive moral influence on the reader by revealing to them the pettiness and meanness of their bigotry.

>> No.19248122

>>19247985
focus on writing the book first

>> No.19248260

>>19248122
I have something like 175 pages of it done, but it's often difficult to keep pressing forward on it knowing that the chances of it being published due to my demography are close to zero.

>> No.19248296

>>19248260
with this much victim complexes you could probably publish it under a black name

>> No.19248302

>>19248296
kek

>> No.19248306

>>19248260
Why are you writing in order to get published? Your goal is to be a hack. Dream bigger

>> No.19248314

>>19248260
Just hide your identity lol. Or are noms de plume no longer a thing?

>> No.19248353

>>19248306
There's a story I want to tell, and if no one else reads it then the story has not really been told.

>>19248314
It seems sort of a lame thing to do.

>> No.19248424

>>19248353
If you just want other people to read your story why should it matter whether you get any personal recognition for it or not?

>> No.19248459

>>19246394
What's the truth about adverbs? I thought they weakened description in general as a quick substitute when a sensory verb does the trick. If the language is under assault, how do I fight back?

>> No.19248465

>>19248424
>why should it matter whether you get any personal recognition for it or not?
not him but is it your fucking business? why isn't someone even allowed to do shit today? it's not evil to sell things for money, it's not evil to have your name attached to your work. What is evil is adopting shitty practices, pandering, lack of integrity, corruption, and everything else that nobody ever addresses, instead it's always "it's bcuz ppl wannuh get paid for werk". It reeks of this sophomoric anarcho/communist leftoidism that is completely detached from reality. People deserve to earn something from their work.

>> No.19248474

>>19248465
take your meds

>> No.19248475

>>19244388
not my problem

>> No.19248483

>>19248474
swallow your HRT and dilate commite parasite

>> No.19248492

>>19248465
It’s not the ancoms that will argue against people being compensated for their work, rather those who attribute the legitimacy of compensation on the increasingly fickle free hand of the market

>> No.19248533

>>19248492
These are two sides of the same coin and people do not understand it. There are no "freedom fighters" in this discourse, only sharks and freeloaders. Since everyone is onto the idea that everyone else's work should have as little value as possible, we now have a system where everyone but the top 1% is exploited.

>> No.19248605

>>19248483
im not american, we dont do that shit here

>> No.19248615

>>19248459
Adverbs exist for a reason, it's if you overuse them that they start seeming superfluous.

>> No.19248643

Well, guess my plan to host my stories on a blog and reap ad revenue/patreonesque services is my best option after all.

>> No.19248664

>>>19248650

>> No.19248801

>>19248459
This anon >>19248615 is right but the problem is that concepts such as common sense and good taste have been destroyed throughout the past century or so, not just through constant promotion of garbage media but also politically through our manufactured Zeitgeist. In a world of absolute individualism and subjectivity, taste is arbitrary and nothing is objectively written like shit, it's just your opinion. No matter who you are, you're probably a meanie who reads boring books and "lots of people like it so it must be good."
So these days no guideline about anything can leave any of its points to taste, avoiding excess, circumstance, or other imprecise quantifiers or qualifiers up to one's judgment. These things were mentioned quite freely in older instructional textbooks or lessons on the creative arts, contrary to the common belief that they were much stricter, because there was a general understanding of what good taste objectively was.
Today's public - and consequently the new ranks of creative people - cannot accept a foreign authority over good taste, so they are not equipped to understand when something is used in excess or improperly. Therefore today's guidelines are becoming reliant on increasingly stricter and more binary definitions of what is to be done and what isn't to be done, and never mentioning excess or taste but instead declaring something good or bad, and defining specific cases if there are exceptions to the rule. How long does a paragraph have to be? Exactly this much, because this is easy to read according to some survey. Also one should open with this kind of sentence, follow with this other type of sentence, and end with this sentence, because the public likes it this way. This is how you get today's hordes and hordes of creatives who are indistinguishable from one another and produce mediocre garbage that never quite fails spectacularly but lowers the bar just the same.
Since we are becoming a bunch of unfeeling, unthinking robots, it only makes sense that all guidelines on creativity are slowly becoming closer to a list of zeros and ones, although of course you can do whatever you want because there's no big meanie man who can tell you what to do. And of course this isn't just affecting writing, and not even the creative arts, but all thinking, from food, to clothes, to politics, and so on.

>> No.19248809

>>19244388
Yes it is filled with women that only want safe stories. Great works require risks

>> No.19248837

>>19245274
t. schizo

>> No.19248857

>>19246122
just found the story and read it... damn, very interesting.

the consensus seems to be that one of the reasons it's so good is that you just don't know what to make of it. the story seems to support so many different positions and interpretations at once.

>> No.19248868

>>19248801
huh...?

>> No.19248884

>>19248868
I digressed
>>19248837
If this isn't at least plausible to you given the state of the world today you're completely retarded. Go to the local, not international website of any company that produces goods, no matter what company it is, at least 2/5 people in the ads will be black. This shit has to be enforced by a committee, it cannot be that there is the same ratio everywhere. It can't be that every single company is doing exactly the same things in the same way, there has to be some sort of agreement to do this even if the demographic for the product will be 300% white.

>> No.19248905
File: 2.57 MB, 3952x5048, jews_in_publishing.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19248905

>>19244388
>>19245638

>> No.19248924

>>19248884
somebody ran the numbers and those ads will earn them more money
simple as

>> No.19249002

>>19246082
>>19246122

>he's going to write the great incel novel

That short story, The Feminist, is quite good, but not in any way the author intends. It's supposed to be satirical, the protagonist is in the author's own words 'not good' and 'feminism is good'. The great incel novel must be written by an incel. Just like how all the gays now only wants gays to play them in movies, incels should only accept incel stories from incels.

>> No.19249187
File: 1.48 MB, 3165x2575, 1633551913955.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19249187

>>19248924
Wishful thinking. "Companies only do things for profit" and therefore they are doing it for profit. You are coping, you don't want to see what's plainly there.
What if they aren't?
Even in the above scenario there are many ways a company can behave, you often see cutthroat CEOs taking over a mediocre company and running into the ground in order to satisfy certain interests... You often see personal rivalries between business personalities getting in the way of optimal profit. Holdings companies can literally play their assets against each other. Marketing retards can run roughshod over entire brands, like what happened with Pepsi, see pic related. And that's on the actual corporate level, not on the meme managerial level where these diversity directives operate... they are the province of HR departments, who have couped some level of power from the purely predatory profit sharks.
What you are seeing is tribalist morons in a nepotistic superficial field (business) bowing to cargo-cult faggots in superficial fields aping empiricism (marketing and social sciences). None of those surveys are even reliable, the only results that can be replicated are those subject to selection bias, if they are even using surveys and not just the current dogma among the activist demographic and "soft sciences".
When you have records and proof of big entertainment firms running things off of nepotism and caprice and making terrible fucking mistakes, when you see allegedly predatory universities actively trying to recruit poor demographics, when positions of power and respect are turned into ethnic sinecures where it is impossible to fail (see: that terrible poetry they read at Biden's inauguration), this speaks to ideology and corruption over performance.
There was no grand imperial plan in Rome's recruitment of Germanic mercenaries, it was a stopgap measure which systematically underestimated the vagrant tribes due to anti-barbarian rhetoric, and ultimately metastasized and fucked them in the ass. Same deal, we're just a few decades out from the consequences being felt.

>> No.19249461

>>19246704
What is this from?

>> No.19249519

>>19245258
Pynchon and mcarthy shitpost here everyday. And sally Rooney is a tripfag

>> No.19249558

>>19248837
t. useful idiot

>> No.19249602

>>19244388
This has been the done thing in sci-fi and fantasy for well over a decade

>> No.19249627
File: 23 KB, 388x292, pep5.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19249627

>>19249187
>like what happened with Pepsi, see pic related
To clarify, I mean this shitshow, see page 6 and beyond:
https://www.goldennumber.net/wp-content/uploads/pepsi-arnell-021109.pdf

>> No.19249664

>>19246139
Hand it out to people on the street until you get lucky and get it into the right hands. That's how some of the best movements in the world came about. It worked for them and it can work for you. Bonus points if you're a fuckin weirdo while you do it. Or just leave it in a train station and someone with romantic views about serendipity will pick it up and tell their friends about the secret book they found.

>> No.19249711

>>19247985
Depends, is it 22% of your words?

>> No.19249730

>>19244388
It is true. I don't know about race or whatever but do yourself a favor and submit a poem or something with structure and skill to an American journal/magazine. Watch it get rejected because it's too structured and the words rhyme and you used a word in the third stanza that one of the 15 editors found triggering because their father threw their hummus into the garbage when they were 12

>> No.19249735

>>19248924
>somebody ran the numbers and those ads will earn them more money
I would honestly doubt that. Ads have traditionally targeted the target demographic the product is sold to because that's what actually helps you sell the ad. It's always been like this. If you have a target demographic for your food product that is 95% straight white families why would you represent the 5%, like an interracial student couple or a couple gay dudes? It's never worked this way, these people according to statistics are a huge minority and they're not relevant from a marketing standpoint. It makes absolutely no sense that you'd gear every single advertisement to include the small minority, not just somewhat representing it but wildly overrepresenting it so that in every single ad there's a lesbian looking black girl with a fro. There's a political push behind this, something that is either forcing or benefiting companies from adopting this on a global scale. Perhaps it's just a market projection where they lose now but gain later and not something darker, but it 100% is not "this is the actual demographic". The actual demographic does not exist. I have never seen a white woman married with a black man in my country, EVER.

>> No.19249783

>>19249735
post some of the ads that triggered you, mon ami

>> No.19249855
File: 27 KB, 534x298, fdi9wijlg5b61.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19249855

>>19245589
At least based China offers us hope.

>> No.19249868
File: 425 KB, 498x624, lost_hope.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19249868

>>19249855

>> No.19249870

>>19249711
No. I have "retard" and "queer" as insults once each in a ~50k word draft.

>> No.19249933

>>19249855
space is stupid anyway, the chinks can have it

>> No.19249993

>>19245265
>I know there's some big pockets jewboy reading this, fund my esoteric jewhate novel right now I demand full editorial control you WILL let me leave in the "poetic preamble" and the parts about my mom
kek

>> No.19250126

>>19249735
It doesn't matter what the actual demographics are. Minorities have not been given a fair shake, that's a fact, but the population have been conditioned to believe that putting them into ads will make up for that and "empower" them. Being conditioned in this way means that ads with gay black people are still reaching the target demographic while now also capturing the remaining 5% of the market which they were previously excluding.
All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses, his real conditions of life, and his relations with his kind.

>> No.19250132

>>19250126
>All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is profaned,
and man proceeds to kill himself because materialism is nihilism. marx owned

>> No.19250145

>>19250132
what?

>> No.19250149

>>19250126
>Minorities have not been given a fair shake

Minorities shouldn't even be in the countries where they are living.

>> No.19250181

>>19250149
are you pointing out that american blacks were taken as slaves?

>> No.19250200

>>19250149
and what about indigenous people?

>> No.19250242

>>19244527
amazing.

>> No.19250266
File: 69 KB, 369x512, unnamed.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19250266

>>19246488
Based

>> No.19250289

Genuinely happy to see so many based and redpilled replies.
This board still has hope.

>> No.19250300

>>19249933
Cope of the highest order

>> No.19250354

>>19249933
>this cope

>> No.19250477
File: 80 KB, 720x729, 1626708781919.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19250477

>>19244527
If somebody's capped this, can they post in thread?

>> No.19250527

>>19245255
I make a living self-publishing. Gonna hit between 4-5 grand this month. I currently have a novel that's been in the top 2,000 on Amazon for about 11 days now~

>> No.19250543

>>19250126
>Minorities have not been given a fair shake
Advertisements should not be about "giving people a fair shake", advertisements should be about selling shit. Traditionally, advertisements have addressed the target demographic because it's what works best. Nobody gives a fuck about the political discourse about a company that the advertisement is supposed to hold up, the ad shows a stand-in for YOU consuming the product and this is all you process while the ad eye and brain rapes you.
It's not there to make you think "oh this company cares about the gays!" nobody processes this, ads are too low level to be processed like that. They choose who to put in the ads extremely accurately, there's immense autistic research on what exactly to show for how many microseconds to maximize the cattle neuron response. You can see that the ads are accurate within certain consumer demographics where selling shit is the real focus but the implications are not very bright e.g. antidepressants, where women consume as much or more than men: they represent white women in the ads because those are the consumers. Medicines where the guy has to go to work but he can't because he has the flu are like 99% white. Everything that has positive implications for the consumer? 50%+ black and gay. Why?
Advertisements that do not address their demographic are going against their very objective, so if they are willingly not doing their job as advertisements, what the fuck are they if not propaganda?

>> No.19250549

>>19250527
Are you that idiot who lives in Vancouver? If so KYS, if not what did you do besides write the novel?

>> No.19250557

>>19250126
>have not been given a fair shake
Why do you guys pretend affirmative action doesnt exist, the dice are literally loaded in their favor. Apart from Asians but nobody really thinks Asians haven't been given a fair shake because they do so well

>> No.19250628

>>19244527
I wanted to post >>19249868 but duplicate file exists

>> No.19250635

>>19246139
Burn it. Do not give things to this world.

>> No.19250640

>>19250543
>Advertisements should not be about "giving people a fair shake", advertisements should be about selling shit. Traditionally, advertisements have addressed the target demographic because it's what works best. Nobody gives a fuck about the political discourse about a company that the advertisement is supposed to hold up, the ad shows a stand-in for YOU consuming the product and this is all you process while the ad eye and brain rapes you.
stopped reading here because it's apparent you're a brainlet. marketing applies a sophisticated multi faceted approach to make you buy their shit that goes well beyond the advertisement itself. edward bernays, the grandson of sigmund freud, is the architect of current trends in psychological marketing manipulation.
>>19250557
nice strawman. I don't pretend and gave you no reason to believe otherwise. And first, affirmative action is a thing now but it hasn't always been. if you weren't a retard you'd understand that it's practiced as a direct response to the fact that minorities haven't been given a fair shake. Second, AA is not a problem if you're not a retard and only exists for very low level white collar jobs. You really think they're being let en masse into the upper ranks? Maybe here and there as a token to show how progressive the company is for having a minority CEO but this MORE BLACK FEMALE CEO libshit doesn't solve anything. Same applies to academia. That's why exploitation of the minority's image in advertisement is comparatively much more popular among the capitalist class for means of "reconciling" and conditioning. It's easy and ultimately completely empty.

>> No.19250645

>>19250640
>edward bernays, the grandson of sigmund freud, is the architect of current trends in psychological marketing manipulation.
edward bernays represented white women when he wanted white women to buy the fucking cigarettes

>> No.19250657

>>19250645
god you're a brainlet hahaha

>> No.19250661

>>19250640
Affirmative action exists because they're dumb and compete so they have to be given an advantage. It is objectively easier for them to get positions given the same level of competence(again apart from asians who are high iq)

>> No.19250682

>>19250549
Nah, I'm not a faggot Canadian. I pay for the covers and do some advertising on Amazon. I don't shill my shit here or anywhere else. I write under a pen name and self-edit my work.

The top 2,000 novel has a 4.5 star average rating rn, all unsolicited. I write high/epic fantasy.

>> No.19250691

I can't imagine that publishing houses would hire editors.

What is this world coming too?

>> No.19250697

>>19250645
>>19250661
the mark of an NPC is being unable to think critically and never seceding from simple and superficial axioms. Here's a simple axiom for you to chew on: you're just low iq life losers who have to blame minorities for your shortcomings

>> No.19250705

>>19250682
That's cool anon.

>> No.19250728

>>19250697
You cant actually reply to what I said because there is no counter argument against it. It is objectively true that its easier for a minority of a given competence level to get a position because of AA.

>> No.19250734

>>19250728
It's bait, he went all out 3 posts ago

>> No.19250740

>>19250734
Not bait, hes just a spiritual redditor

>> No.19250748

>>19250697
I know you know already but you're acting like an insufferable twat that nobody wants to listen to.

>>19250728
Do whatever you're gonna do but it sounds like he's just going to keep acting like kind of a shithead mate.

>> No.19250754
File: 77 KB, 1891x332, publishing.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19250754

>>19250477

>> No.19250760

>>19250728
I don't need to reply to it because I'm not even arguing that in the first place, and if you held basic comprehension skills you'd understand I already addressed it.
>>19250740
>everyone i don't like is reddit
you're just the other side of the NPC coin, the other side being
>everything i don't like is /pol/
>>19250748
make that a large fries please

>> No.19250788

>>19250760
You said minorities are not given a fair shake. AA means they are in fact given an advantage. You cant process this because accepting that they're just dumb on average is heresy and scares you

>> No.19250797

>>19250788
The AA doesn't make up the difference. Not even close.

>> No.19250807

>>19250788
god you're a fucking retard aren't you. As I already said, AA is an advantage, but it's barely an advantage. It doesn't undo the long term socioeconomic damage done to minorities. And as a non minority it shouldn't even effect you if you're not a complete retard, but you are a complete retard, which is why you weigh it so heavily. Retards are not meant to make it. Sorry.

>> No.19250820

>>19250797
The difference in what? The magical hidden oppression they face? Look at the test scores of bottom percentile wealth asians and top percentile wealth blacks. You're lying to yourself, understandable, but go do it on reddit

>> No.19250824

>>19250807
>long term socioeconomic damage
Not real, they're poor because they're dumb. Stop trying to deflect from the fact that AA means it is easier for a minority of a given competence level to get a position

>> No.19250840

>>19250807
>retards are not meant to make it
That's what I'm trying to tell you about minorities lmao

>> No.19250858

>4chan just now learns the publishing industry is a bunch of jewish women in new york

up next month: /lit/ discovers george eliot was not a man and that the moon being made of cheese thing was just a meme

>> No.19250864

>>19250824
>slavery
>segregation
>cia selling crack to blacks and initiating an epidemic in the 80s
>not real
>>19250840
>That's what I'm trying to tell you about minorities lmao
and what I'm trying to tell you, is that you, on the other hand, have little reason for being a retard because you and your ancestors have been more than likely to have been given a much fairer shake of the sauce bottle. minorities being retarded is born out of disadvantage, your being retarded is born out of your mother.

>> No.19250875

>>19250864
Except blacks with high income still do worse than asians with low income. They're just dumb, stop being a pussy and admit it

>> No.19250882

Yes it's true.

>> No.19250915

>>19250875
You've pivoted and pivoted away from the central thesis of my argument to this because you can't cope with being a retard. I quite frankly don't give a fuck whether it's true or not. Being enslaved by the state is going to fuck you no matter how smart you are, and any advantages currently being given don't even come close to being fair for making up for that. I'm sorry that there are no advantages being afforded to white people of low quality genetic stock. I don't agree with the system either. You're going to have to capital C Cope because your frustrations are misdirected.

>> No.19250928

>>19250915
Lmao I have only made one point: minorities have been given a fair shake, indeed they have an advantage. The fact they are dumb us necessary to explain to you because you keep trying to attribute their poverty to oppression. You are gay basically is the gist of this

>> No.19250938
File: 144 KB, 667x671, E861CEC8-3F61-42BB-A974-BA2FD36812B5.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19250938

Yes, it’s real

>> No.19250939

>>19250928
Ok so then the gist of my rebuttal would be that you are a coping retard

>> No.19250947

>>19250939
You cant argue with my point because it is obviously correct. Both the AA advantage and the test scores example, you are utterly incapable of addressing these points. I admit its unfair because you are forced to defend an idiotic position out of fear, but it's very funny

>> No.19250961

>>19250947
sorry but rehashing points I've already addressed ad nauseam is cope and not my problem

>> No.19250962

>>19250754
Thanks anon

>> No.19250969

>>19250961
your "rebuttal" to AA was "well it doesn't matter" with no justification. You then tried to bring up oppression and I pointed out that even high income blacks do poorly and you didnt even try to respond. I am happy to continue making fun of you if you want

>> No.19250978
File: 550 KB, 978x1019, 1628961292546.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19250978

> minority from uncle-tom or rich foreign middle class background with professional success and publications due to condescending low-bar treatment by Jew/Anglo/Mutt women in the managerial class LARPs as a self-made successful individual while denying their familial and community advantages most whiteys would never get
many such cases, I'm the same way but I can't cope like this because I'm white passing

>> No.19250980

>>19250864
All I hear is wah wah wah, my 85 IQ make me too dumb 4 Harvard!?!?!!?!!!

Dis be dah white man's fault

>> No.19250987

>>19250969
>with no justification
not sure whether I should tell you to cope or learn to read at this point
>>19250980
what? that's literally the basis of the person I'm arguing. I go to a T10 already.

>> No.19250995

>>19250987
Claiming you already made an argument after giving up on even trying to respond is a common phenomenon at this stage k the debate lol. Go ahead and quote your argument about why asians in bottom deciles of wealth score higher than blacks in top deciles. Quote your argument about why Affirmative action is not an advantage

>> No.19250996

>>19250987
>I go to a T10 already.

I hope you don't mean law school. If so, I'm sorry for your loss~

>> No.19251012

>>19250995
>I quite frankly don't give a fuck whether it's true or not. Being enslaved by the state is going to fuck you no matter how smart you are, and any advantages currently being given don't even come close to being fair for making up for that. I'm sorry that there are no advantages being afforded to white people of low quality genetic stock. I don't agree with the system either. You're going to have to capital C Cope because your frustrations are misdirected.
>>19250996
econ

>> No.19251016

>>19251012
Yeah that's not an argument, you literally said "I dont care if it's true" lmao.

>> No.19251024

>>19248353
>There's a story I want to tell, and if no one else reads it then the story has not really been told.
I'm currently writing a short story that investigates whether your statement is true or not. It's about a man who purchases a painting inside a safe that has never been seen by anyone other than the painter, and he struggles with the decision to open the safe or not.

>> No.19251028

>>19251016
yes because you pivoted ignored historical context

>> No.19251039

>>19249855
based China, limiting amounts of time kids can spend playing video games and banning effiminate men

>> No.19251044

>>19248905
crazy how it be like that mosttimes

>> No.19251048

>>19251028
Historical context cant explain those test scores, good lord you are committed to being a pussy. Once upon a time yes they were oppressed, now they are not, now they have objective legal advantages and have for decades. Being low IQ though thus only goes so far. This is the obvious reality of the situation

>> No.19251054

>>19251012
>econ
This nigger really came into the thread and tried to present as a smart person while being in the biggest joke echo-chamber field to ever exist, which can never predict anything ever?
I'm T10 medicine grad school and I have more publications than you. As a side project fresh out of undergrad, while working fulltime, I optimized a particular protein of crucial interest to industry, improving its performance to the literal world-best at the time with no previous experience in that field.
Kill yourself retarded scum, AA is incredibly impactful and you're only denying that because you can use it to your benefit, and you're a dishonest hack.
I haven't been responding to you so far btw, I am just sick of your horseshit, you are an oxygen thief occupying an irrelevant sinecure. Fuck you

>> No.19251072

>>19251048
talking to NPCs is too difficult for me. If you can't connect the dots after being spoonfed as much as you have then I don't see the point in continuing. I don't know how you function on a daily basis, but I can tell you're going nowhere quick. You can keep blaming blackie for your shit life but I'm white and doing fine.
>>19251054
lmao this is unprecedented seethe
also I didn't read

>> No.19251074

>>19251072
Again not even one argument in this post but your ego won't let you just leave so you dribble out some irrelevant garbage. Try to respond to the actual content

>> No.19251076

>>19251074
nah I'm satisfied

>> No.19251077
File: 288 KB, 481x799, b06618208c28d27e8c7096bc215c8e3b5b7d2c8e7f0deceb7d9582c7aa59c642_1.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19251077

>>19251072
>lmao this is unprecedented seethe
>also I didn't read

>> No.19251081

>>19251077
lmao cope

>> No.19251086

>>19251076
You're not satisfied lol, you just know you cant make any actual arguments.

>> No.19251094

>>19251086
kek ok whatever helps you cope

>> No.19251098

>>19251094
Really though why do you think rich blacks score lower than poor asians, any ideas?

>> No.19251099

>>19251024
You sound like a nigger

>>19251054
Medicine is for niggers

>>19251072
faggot nigger

>> No.19251117

>>19245865
Rupi Kaur occasionally expresses a sentiment worth being fleshed out, but never fleshes it out. Her poems have a level of ambition just above a tweet. Nothing sets them apart as something only she could have phrased, just totally interchangeable with any other consumerist era, moderately educated Twitterati.

>> No.19251136

>>19251098
I don't know anything about it, I assume you want me to "admit" it's genetic. It could be, I don't know. I could also be cultural differences wherein asians prioritize education and test taking very rigorously and black people don't. Not sure. Make sure to align your conclusions to the one which rationalises your unexceptional life though.

>> No.19251144

>>19251136
Yeah it's because they're dumb, transracial adoption studies show this too. Enjoy being a pussy lel

>> No.19251148

>>19250640
White collar retards, huh?

https://www.nasdaq.com/press-release/nasdaq-to-advance-diversity-through-new-proposed-listing-requirements-2020-12-01

>the new listing rules would require all companies listed on Nasdaq’s U.S. exchange to publicly disclose consistent, transparent diversity statistics regarding their board of directors. Additionally, the rules would require most Nasdaq-listed companies to have, or explain why they do not have, at least two diverse directors, including one who self-identifies as female and one who self-identifies as either an underrepresented minority1 or LGBTQ+.

>Under the proposal, all Nasdaq-listed companies will be required to publicly disclose board-level diversity statistics through Nasdaq’s proposed disclosure framework within one year of the SEC’s approval of the listing rule.

And it was approved:

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/sec-approves-nasdaq-diversity-rule

>inb4 goal posts moved to IT'S JUST SYMBOLIC

>> No.19251151

>>19251144
what explains you then? blackie holding you down? lel

>> No.19251162

>>19251151
There is no affirmative action in my country and barely any blacks, I just dont like you

>> No.19251178

>>19251162
Again not even one argument in this post but your ego won't let you just leave so you dribble out some irrelevant garbage. Try to respond to the actual content
>>19251148
>MORE *clap* BLACK *clap* FEMALE *clap* GAY *clap* CEOs
>3700 companies on the nasdaq
>7400 minority directors
dude 7400 minorities out of millions are a director at a nasdaq company!!! you know what this means?
minorities? saved. the world? saved. racism? over.
Anyway, I don't see how I would be moving goalposts since I already said that but nice try

>> No.19251195

>>19251178
Your post didnt have any content to respond to, it was just yet another instance of you saying I have some motive for making this argument, rather than addressing the content of the argument. So I explained to you that AA has had 0 impact on my life because it's not a thing here.

>> No.19251225

>>19251178
White collar retards, huh? >>19251148

>inAfter goalpost moved

>> No.19251295

>>19251195
That's fine. I'd still like to know why you lead an unexceptional life. You're probably Australian, in which case, you need not specify. Australians are almost inherently just not impressive people.

>> No.19251315

>>19251295
I could be a 70iq retard and it wouldn't change that my argument is clearly correct and you have done a shameful job defending yourself. Even by the standards of people like you, there is usually more of an effort than this.

>> No.19251321
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19251321

>>19251295

>> No.19251326

>>19251315
I thought I made it clear that I was satisfied with our previous discussion. Keep up, we've moved on now. I am asking a different question. It may or may not have bearing on how I view you, but that shouldn't be an issue, right?
>>19251321
this is 2011 epic

>> No.19251360

>>19251326
I dont believe you're satisfied, you would have just stopped posting. The fact is that you don't like losing an argument because you consider yourself smart(not saying you aren't) but you cant win this argument because you're forced by your crimestop to argue on the obviously wrong side. This understandably annoys you so you lash out with insults to avoid the uncomfortable issue. I've talked to dozens of people like you at this point, I literally was you once.

>> No.19251371

>>19251360
kek ok freud you're right I wish I was more like you

>> No.19251378

>>19251371
Of course you dont. You are well aware its social suicide to not hold the opinion you hold on this topic: that's why you hold it.

>> No.19251399

>>19251378
wtf are you talking about I'm a commie in the US doing a PhD in a neoliberal T10 econ department. I'm not about to tell anyone this though because look at David Graeber, he got exiled for it and he was in social anthropology.
>inb4 democrats are commies

>> No.19251408

>>19251399
You are well aware you could pin a hammer and sickle badge to your clothing and very little would happen to you, but if you were to pin a swastika...

Come on.

>> No.19251421

>>19251399
And I looked up Mr Graeber and he was not exactly put on the no fly list was he. Seems to have had a pretty comfy celebrity life

>> No.19251471

>>19245489
Will people judge me if I get published at a facist press?

>> No.19251480

>>19251408
wow are you seriously implying that advocating for genocide would yield a different reaction to advocating for a workers state? no way that's crazy!!! fucking retard lmao is being disingenuous your default state of being?
there still stands the stigma of being a communist in US thanks to generations of McCarthyist brainwashing. We're living through a Red Scare 2.0 right now thanks to China.
David Graeber had to leave the country to continue working. Michael Parenti received similar treatment from his peers but not exiled, he did however have the FBI fucking with him his whole life. Zizek is banned from publishing in a number of academic journals. They still live well because each of these people are exceptional in one way or another and as such have a sizeable audience, commanding an undeniable cachet.

>> No.19251491

>>19251480
I'm glad you agree that Nazism is more taboo than communism, that is a start. I think you will also agree that youd suffer worse consequences in your life if you were to simply say that you thought blacks were dumb on average(not nazism) than if you were to declare yourself a communist?

>> No.19251577

>>19251491
>I'm glad you agree that Nazism is more taboo than communism
yes because I don't pick my ideology based on how edgy it is.
As for your question, liberalism fails to recognise the inherent differences between cultures and tries to teach us we are all the same, a significant driver of racial tensions. So if you were to make a claim like that, it would not go down well.
Are you about to tell me that I'm a conformist or some shit because I don't take the edgiest positions possible?

>> No.19251616

>>19251577
I'm telling you that you're unwilling to accept the possibility that one group of humans is dumber on average than another group, because you have been conditioned since you were sapient to know that saying that will get you ostracized, and you naturally fear that. You are not entirely aware of these dynamics because that's embedded in the nature of the psychological process of taboo, of not thinking about certain ideas.

I'm not insulting you as a person for this, I get it man. I called you a pussy but I dont actually believe that, again I had your opinions when I was 19 at university, I was just antagonizing you.

I'm also not telling you I'm better than you for having different opinions: I am not. There is a difference between the truth of something and the person saying it.

>> No.19251819

>>19251616
I know that you're trying to level with me in an effort to make me see things the way you do, but I have thought at length about this and am already aware of those dynamics. I know I'm not myself immune to these dynamics and neither are you, but I am aware of them. Similar dynamics are why communism is taboo (yes, not as taboo as nazism, but still taboo). I remember when I was 7 my school teacher told us that communism was evil but couldn't explain why other than "it just is, no food." It had been embedded in me that it was evil and that was that.

Above all, however, I now attempt to observe those dynamics and the particular dynamics which affect me as someone in the working/middle class. All else is secondary to this. I don't and have never at any point denied the possibility that some groups have lower latent intelligence. If such a phenomena exists, I highly doubt the difference is enough to warrant the abandonment of an entire race as an ally, to let it divide the ranks and weaken the working/middle class, or to ignore a history of oppression based on the fact that they don't do maths as well. I am only interested in exerting myself towards something which frees myself and others out from under the oppression of capital.

Anyway, it's 1am here so I'm going to sleep

>> No.19251841

>>19251819
Your communist sentiments are a whole other matter, and less empirically verifiable for or against. I respect your desire to unite the working class, I really do. I obviously don't believe in it but we wont answer that question in discourse tonight.

Have a good sleep anyway anon.

>> No.19252059

>>19251471
The right people will judge you favourably, and the wrong people will judge negatively

>> No.19252196

>>19249855
This is very misleading, the actual survey is a top 5 of jobs and both europe and the usa have astronaut on their top 5, just as the chinese have youtuber/vlogger. The position in the top 5 are just slightly different. And it’s not like it was 60% for the first place and 1% for the fifth, they were all pretty close together

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