/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.19543651]

How do people fall for this shit

[Anonymous No.19543656]

Michael Caine?

[Anonymous No.19543679]

>>19543651
Because it's based? Hoppe is in meme territory though, read von Hayek or Bastiat.
>>19543656
He wishes.

[Anonymous No.19543705]

>>19543651
Why? He's pretty sound as far as libertarians go.

[Anonymous No.19543726]

>>19543705
>>19543679
how do you get this mystified by capital when it’s not even in its glory days

[Anonymous No.19543732]

>>19543726
What do you mean? Capital pulls not and more people out of poverty every single day, all around the world

[Anonymous No.19543733]

>>19543726
wow, deep

[Anonymous No.19543781]

>>19543732
How do you actually believe that?

[Anonymous No.19543789]

>>19543733
not an argument, you are mystified. Hoppe is a boomer so at least he has an excuse

[Anonymous No.19543803]

>>19543781
Not him, but by the fact that you're typed this post out on your computer and sent this post out to be seen internationally. What we have now (e.g. inflation, a labour shortage AND massive unemployment, monopolies, subsidies, corporates wealthfare, socialism for the rich), is not capitalism.
> inb4 muh real capitalism has never been tried
We don't live in a theoretical world, I know, but least before we had something approaching capitalism, now we just have a neoliberal wealth fare state.

[Anonymous No.19543820]

>>19543803
>Keynesian wasn’t real capitalism
>Neoliberalism isn’t real capitalism
Are lolberts just projecting when they make fun of Marxists

[Anonymous No.19543828]

>>19543651

Absolute dunce. A high schooler could refute his deep understanding of economics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJwmMu15Exc

[Anonymous No.19543861]

>>19543820
No, we just want something that will work and it's honestly pretty easy to predict that these systems will fail.
My use of the word "neoliberalism" was pejorative really, the word hardly has any meaning. I meant that they were LARPing as believing in liberalism despite not holding any liberal beliefs other than "open borders" which is subverted when you have a welfare state and which is not even a core tannate of liberalism (I'm not an ancap).

[Anonymous No.19543875]

>>19543861
There is no such thing as a welfare state, Ronald Reagan invented that to make you think megacorps are normal

[Anonymous No.19543883]

>>19543875
How would you like to describe the difference between a state which distributes welfare and one which doesn't.

[Anonymous No.19543885]

>>19543651
>>19543828
Why does he look like a Japanese?

[Anonymous No.19543908]

>>19543883
Do you want me to give you an honest answer? The state functions in any capitalist society as a mechanism to distribute money upwardly and further capital accumulation at the top. Naturally the state is privatized and done away with and any sort of “”welfare”” provisions are hollowed out to the point of not having any meaning. Therefore a welfare state is the exact same thing as a state.

[Anonymous No.19544016]

>>19543651

[Anonymous No.19544133]

>>19543875
I'd argue Teddy to Woody were way more responsible

>>19543908
>the state is privatized
would you accept a rephrasing that the state is simply a parasitic corporation with a monopoly on violence?

[Anonymous No.19544145]

>>19543908
Are you not aware that poor people get welfare? I'm aware the state also funnels money to rich people.

[Anonymous No.19544225]

>>19543820
Everyone makes fun of retards like you who think "inflation" is a spook, and that breadlines are good. You're stupidest faggots in existence, and your policies are so bad you have to build walls to get people from escaping.

[Anonymous No.19544240]

>>19543820
>Venezuela isn't real socialism!
>Russia collapsing was real capitalism!
Okay faggot

[Anonymous No.19544282]

>>19544133
Sure.
>>19544145
Welfare programs are in name only and not enough to sustain anything. Pure liberal vanity

[Anonymous No.19544291]

>>19544240
>>19544225
Are you gonna quote the Gulag Archipelago at me, you good little CIA shills? Nice cope but you’re absolutely projecting, the only inflation and breadlines in 2021 are from the heart of empire, America. Your mythic capitalism that isn’t “crony capitalism” doesn’t exist

[Anonymous No.19544300]

>>19544282
They still exist though. There wasnt much in the way of welfare in 19th century America, so you have to note the change to now spending quite a sum on it and other social programs. This is a real change. Of course there was also a massive increase in taxation and a huge reduction in tariffs, proportionally. These are things with which lolbertarians are naturally quite concerned, though some of them are bit odd about the tariffs because muh free trade.

[Anonymous No.19544315]

>>19544300
Compare welfare programs and labor from 1932-1972 with the current statistics of wageslavery and “child tax credits” plos

[Anonymous No.19544328]

>>19544315
Sure but compare them to 1870, obviously there was a big increase in welfare type programs, and we still do have a fair amount of it, even if it has been reduced.

[Anonymous No.19544341]

>>19544291
The CIA killing people like you isn't really the own against them you think it is. They should have killed even more of you, honestly, and it would have saved America so much more trouble than you do today.
>Your mythic capitalism that isn’t “crony capitalism” doesn’t exist
You will never live to see socialism. America will never give its land back to the Natives. Sanders will never be president. You will never see a Marxist-Leninist America. And you will never be white or a woman. And Kyle Rittenhouse did nothing wrong.

[Anonymous No.19544370]

>>19544341
When did I say socialism would ever be realized or land would be given to natives? Holy shit what a cope. Do you think Pinochet is epic too, 14 year old? why bootlick for something near collapse you aren’t even benefitting from? Absolute freak. Imagine being proud of being a happy little consumer who believes CIA propaganda.
Kyle Rittenhouse isn’t white and neither are you, btw. He literally resembles the 56% meme. Eat a bullet mutt.

[Anonymous No.19544376]

>>19544341
seethe and project harder, your empire is near death and being governed by a senile man. xi will make you eat bugs and you’ll cry like a bitch

[Anonymous No.19544455]

>>19544370
>>19544376
You're violent criminal and a thug. You reap what you sow. Expect to killed. Socialism, like democracy, is a failed god on its way out and a world of hell, slaughter awaits you and your ilk.

[Anonymous No.19544831]

>>19543651
Only those with extremely sharp, logical minds seasoned in an effortless dissecting any fallacies and avoiding any frauds you fall into due to your moral inadequacies are at risk.
Most folks should not feel endangered desu.

[Anonymous No.19544883]

>>19543820
Do you faggots really look at the federal reserve printing infinite sums of money in a limp dick Keynesian attempt at controlling unemployment via inflation, as well as passing out stacks of cash to the highest bidding lobbyists, is in anyway conducive to capitalism?
>muh muh late stage capitalism
No retard, this is late stage keynesianism. If the Austrians got their way and aborted the Fed before it ever started do you really think the money printer of today would be a conversaton piece

There are so many irrefutable criticisms of capitalism and austrian economics that anyone who uses keynesian failures as their argument is just proving how little they fucking know about economics of any kind.

[Anonymous No.19544919]

>>19544883
Leftists want an excuse to print more money to protect their pathetic petty bourgeoisie lifestyle from proloteriatization. They just don't seem to realize printing paper isn't going to magically build more houses or allow people to produce more food. Only human action can do that - the type of human action their bumasses could never do.

[Anonymous No.19544927]

>>19544883
Marxism is a great argument against democracy. Under a democracy - these the are people who are allowed to live and have voices that impact policy.

[Anonymous No.19544963]

>>19544919
Leftists have no idea what they want which is the problem

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.19544973]

>>19544919
>Leftists want an excuse to print more money
Lol you fanatics. Money is your god. Leftists are atheists to it.

>>19544963
The actual problem is the label “leftist”. Too many don’t know what it means anymore.

[Anonymous No.19544981]

>>19544973
>Too many don’t know what it means anymore.
Leftists don't know what it means either, which again, is the problem. Everyone else does.
>Money is your god. Leftists are atheists to it.
Keep telling yourself that. Capital defines leftism more than it defines anything else. Plus, given any sum of money, every leftist would turn into some sort of pseudo Elon Musk with a savior complex, not spend it on housing the poor or building communes.

[Anonymous No.19544985]

>>19543803
the term 'capitalism' is so devalued now it's barely a meaningful word and more of a metaphysical concept akin to 'natural' (or 'unnatural' if you're on the left) with all the political handwaving that accompanies it

[Anonymous No.19544991]

>>19544133
who is regulating and enforcing the principle of private property if not the state? it gives corporations legitimacy

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.19544993]

>>19544981
>which again, is the problem.
Yes, no need to reiterate what I just said
>Everyone else does.
Wrong. Evidently.
>Keep telling yourself [the truth]
Okay. Hey, read this book yet?

[Anonymous No.19544994]

>>19544291
>>you good little CIA shills
>>debating a dual economic dichotomy
kek

[Anonymous No.19545061]

>>19544963
They know what they want. They want to die. They want people to kill them. Life is irredeemably bad for them. Just put them out of their misery. Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eiu.
>>19544973
>Money is your god.
How is this a counter argument? You expect people to be so altruistic that they do everything to satisfied free-loading degenerates like you? No wonder you fucking retards are attracted to such a profligate belief system. You need it as a masquerade for your pathetic hedonistic vices to pretend you actually have a critique of the prevailing powers at hand. Fucking subhuman.

[Anonymous No.19545073]

>>1954499
Kyle Rittenhouse didn't need the government to protect businesses and his life. You only need an AR-15.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.19545210]

>>19545061
>Christian-capitalist work ethic
>Napping in the midday is hedonism
Just die.

[Anonymous No.19545541]

>>19543651
I don't know. Libertarianism is probably the only ideology that even on paper it doesn't sound good.

[Anonymous No.19545561]

>>19543651
This thread, and particularly buttercunt's God awful takes, has turned me back into a (right) libertarian. Congrats I suppose.

[Anonymous No.19545568]

The reason libertarianism doesn't work can be explain entirely by pic related.

[Anonymous No.19545574]

The US is just done, it's over. Don't address americans or american ideology.

[Anonymous No.19545586]

>>19545541
It does sound good on paper, libertarians just never acknowledge that society doesn't start from scratch, some people just have more money and more power than others by stint of birth and they have zero reason to play fair; it's easy to advocate a completely laissez-faire free market when you've already won the competition and don't have to start at rock bottom.

[Anonymous No.19545630]

>>19545586
the closest application of libertarian ideals i've seen is agorism, which is basically "opting out" of society at large by building a second realm with trusted ones: basically a commune with lots of horticulture, guns, crypto and tax evasion, or you do that in your own home.
even then, it's not something that intends on changing society as a whole in any nation. it's almost like accepting defeat, hiding away and waiting to die in a Waco situation.

[Anonymous No.19545648]

>>19544973
>tripfag
didnt read lol

[Anonymous No.19545676]

>>19543651
Falling for ''Upwards Class Mobility''

[Anonymous No.19545720]

Hoppe is based.

[Anonymous No.19545774]

>>19545676
>t. poorfag that didnt make it

[Anonymous No.19545915]

>>19545676
there's upwards class mobility programs for minorities in literally every western country now, WHAT DO YOU WANT?

[Anonymous No.19546000]

>>19545568
Hoppe is well aware of the issues of violence in his ideal society.

[Anonymous No.19546441]

>>19544291
leftypol tier argumentation

[Anonymous No.19546607]

>>19546441
Refute it.

[Anonymous No.19546617]

>>19545630
individualism is the biggest pitfall of the lolbergs. the US never once had the rugged individual, ever, it was always groups striking out into the hostile wilderness to establish their own communities based on shared religious/familial ties. The best surviving examples of this are the Amish and the LDS, both are way more communitarian than most crypto spergs. Because of this the mormon church has a 100% chance of outlasting the US Gov't.

[Anonymous No.19546648]

>>19543651
dudes rock

[Anonymous No.19546667]

>>19543651
What you mean? He's literally right about everything

[Anonymous No.19546676]

>>19546000
No he's not because he's under the false impression that anyone has any duty to respect property rights.

[Anonymous No.19546808]

>>19546676
Once you get rid of the greatest bandit of all times, the state, fending off some random marauders is hardly worth discussing - he still does it to a great extent for completeness sake.

[Anonymous No.19546863]

>>19544370
>Rothbard picture
>Israel flag Pick one rothbard was anti Israel retard.

[Anonymous No.19546869]

>>19546808
But that's the point though, having a Social Darwinistic war of all against all where the strongest wins isn't libertarianism.

[Anonymous No.19546878]

>>19546808
Lmao. Stateless societies are incredibly violent and warlike, not even in a meme “I challenge you to a duel for my honor” way but rather in a “me and my buddies sneak into your village in the middle of the night and then kill all the men and slave the women” way.

[Anonymous No.19547257]

>>19546878
I wouldn't risk sleeping in the same house with you and your buddies but there are plenty of quite civilized people I've been sharing rooms with without having to constantly watch my back and my pocket. Our point is that we are quite capable of keeping chimps outside.
>Stateless societies are incredibly violent and warlike
And you've concluded this from thousands years old remains of people which couldn't even read and write.

[Anonymous No.19547282]

>>19546667
Idiot take. The man wants literal unfreedom to reign

[Anonymous No.19547292]

[Anonymous No.19547402]

>>19547257
> And you've concluded this from thousands years old remains of people which couldn't even read and writ
You can literally just look at Libya today to see what happens when the state goes away.

[Anonymous No.19547419]

>People will be peaceful because... they just will, OK?!

[Anonymous No.19547425]

>>19543651
we don't have poors and by poors I mean blacks

[Anonymous No.19547453]

>>19543679
I thought he was referring to the monarcho ancap angle

[Anonymous No.19547458]

>>19543820
Keynesianism isn't real capitalism by definition because the economy is not regulated by the market, its by the government.

I don't think there has ever been full capitalism, where even currency is controlled completely by the market.

[Anonymous No.19547462]

>>19547402
Some people murder each other state or no state. The historic victim count of state violence (wars included obviously) is orders of magnitude greater than of "private" crimes.

[Anonymous No.19547510]

>>19547462
>Some people murder each other state or no state
They do it far more frequently in stateless societies than in state. Read War Before Civilization, which deals with tribal warfare in detail.
Protip: It isn't pretty or even "heroic" in the sense that people thing about war being.
>>19547462
>The historic victim count of state violence (wars included obviously) is orders of magnitude greater than of "private" crimes.
Tribal warfare body counts generally are like 20-40% of the total population of the tribe, often escalating into the 100% if the winning tribe really is in for the grabs and don't feel like taking slaves.
Peaceful savages are a meme.

[Anonymous No.19547550]

>>19547510
Ok, but we are not a tribe, nor we intend to establish one.
The states are archaic shitholes build on slavery, not the stateless societies.

[Anonymous No.19547600]

>>19547550
>Ok, but we are not a tribe, nor we intend to establish one.
HHH basic view of human social organization is that it should be broke down into self-policing and independent small sized units with no higher level authoritative figure(which would result or at least heavily incentivize in small groups with relatively high levels of consanguinity ie tribes). He(together with most ancaps I know) are quite upfront about that.
>The states are archaic shitholes build on slavery, not the stateless societies.
That is not how most identifiable states, either ancient or modern, came to be.

[Anonymous No.19547648]

>>19547600
No you idiot, we don't want to establish tribes, and we are upfront about THAT.
>not how they came to be
Maybe not, maybe yes, but regardless, it has as much to do with topic as hand as your blabbering about tribes. That is nothing at all. You missed the point.

[Anonymous No.19547769]

>>19547648
>Maybe not, maybe yes, but regardless, it has as much to do with topic as hand as your blabbering about tribes. That is nothing at all. You missed the point.
No, I got the point perfectly.
AnCaps(or at least the Mises' influenced ones) picked up from where the minarchists Human Action left off, thinking that since for the profit markets was the best in producing quality goods and services, then enabling them to engage in legal, judiciary, and coercive services while disbanding state-based ones would create better versions of these for the public, effectively eliminating the state in the process, with a Herbert Spencer-esque hyper individualistic culture and the NAP to make a nice bow on top. However, since the vast majority lack the means to keep a legislative/judiciary/police force on standby, then to enable the ancap society it would then be necessary some sort communitarian bargaining, de facto leading to small and medium sized communities with their particularities as the specific arrangements varied between themselves.
It honestly is not even hard to understand, and a kid can start poking holes into it if they fell like it.

[Anonymous No.19547804]

>>19547769
>it would then be necessary some sort communitarian bargaining, de facto leading to small and medium sized communities with their particularities as the specific arrangements varied between themselves.
That's quite a lot of words for the concept of freely choosing between various security, insurance, or arbitration agencies.

[Anonymous No.19547813]

>>19547769
What's wrong with small voluntary communities?

[Anonymous No.19547848]

>>19547804
>That's quite a lot of words for the concept of freely choosing between various security, insurance, or arbitration agencies.
What you said misses a lot of what I said. Even the Rothbard admitted that *some* sort of collective compromise would be necessary for it to work.
>>19547813
>What's wrong with small voluntary communities?
Strictly speaking nothing, but it is a bad idea to try to arrange your whole civilization on voluntarist societies operating in a ad hoc fashion.

[Anonymous No.19547901]

>>19547510
>They do it far more frequently in stateless societies than in state. Read War Before Civilization, which deals with tribal warfare in detail.
This is just not even remotely true. There has never been a stateless society that has had the level of killings we see states do. Its not possible to kill tons of people without centralized power. You can not find any example in history, a battle, or fight, where this has been the case. I dare you to do so.
>Tribal warfare body counts generally are like 20-40%
Yeah, this is a really retarded argument. You think you can ignore raw numbers to say a tribe made of 100 people dropping by 40 people is the same as a state going to war, and losing 10% of the population - roughly a million people. You, the retard, would tell me that the tribe was bloodier. That's fucking ridiculous.

[Anonymous No.19547927]

>>19547402
>You can literally just look at Libya today to see what happens when the state goes away.
Libdya is what happens when black people exist. You can look at Chicago and Detroit and see what happens.

[Anonymous No.19547951]

>>19547901
>This is just not even remotely true. There has never been a stateless society that has had the level of killings we see states do. Its not possible to kill tons of people without centralized power. You can not find any example in history, a battle, or fight, where this has been the case. I dare you to do so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crow_Creek_massacre
>but it was just a single village bro, it doesn't count
Then read about the IE migrations or the Bantu expansion. The first set half of Eurasia on fire, and the later did the same in Sub-Saharan Africa.
The *only* argument there might be here is that pre-state societies the absolute body count is smaller, but that is only because the *actual* populations is tiny to begin with.
It would be like saying that a village with 1000 people that have 10 murders each year is safer than a city with 1 million where 100 people are killed in the same period. It is just utterly asinine.

[Anonymous No.19548786]

>>19547951
>486 people killed
Lmao, you think that's comparable to the fucking thousands that were killed at the Battle of Somme every fucking day? Are you serious - that's nothing.
>The *only* argument there might be here is that pre-state societies the absolute body count is smaller, but that is only because the *actual* populations is tiny to begin with.
Wrong, their smaller because tribe never had the centralization states do to coerce people to fight. They can't do conscription, nor can have the scale of indoctrination and brainwashing to make men die for frivolous wars. Don't be stupid.
>It would be like saying that a village with 1000 people that have 10 murders each year is safer than a city with 1 million where 100 people are killed in the same period.
But, that's not even a comparable example because the murder rate in per-historic times were much lower. If they were any higher - humanity would not exist in the first place you fucking retard. Imagine thinking tribes were as dangerous countries with nuclear and chemical weapons. You are a fucking moron if you actually believe that societies before states were even on the scale of bloodshed we see now, the bloodshed you are an apologist for.

[Anonymous No.19548850]

>>19547951
Literally all you have to do is show we had the same level of casualties, in warfare, 5,000 years before states even formed. You can't even do that - you think states didn't even exist in the 14th century. You don't even know basic anthropology and you want to make these arguments.

[Anonymous No.19548982]

>>19547419
Reference the trips of truth, faggot >>19546000

[Anonymous No.19549017]

>>19548982
Hence this take down >>19546676

[Anonymous No.19549343]

>>19549017
Sorry but argumentation ethics btfos this "takedown"

[Anonymous No.19549352]

>>19543726
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8BAckZBQZc

[Anonymous No.19549561]

>>19548786
>>19548850
>I don't care if I have an 1 in 5 chance of being stabbed to death in a tribal village with 500 inhabitants, if the number of murders in a city with millions of habitant is slightly bigger, that is logic
I am starting to get why people fell so much contempt from hippies.

[Anonymous No.19549568]

>>19549561
>that is logic
it is logical tribes are safer*

[Anonymous No.19549580]

>>19543651
he tells them what they want to hear, he gives them simple emotionally appealing explanations for their problems in life recasting them as the victim of what the rightwing media has already taught them to hate
it is a complex web engineered by the Kochs and other powerful interests to advance their agenda