/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.19570193]

Did he ever say anything about Shintoism or Buddhism? Do we know his general thoughts on religion?

[Anonymous No.19570235]

>>19570193
>and when he died.... he came.....

[Anonymous No.19570271]

>>19570193
There are obviously a lot of references to Zen Buddhism in Temple of the Golden Pavilion but the main character doesn't seem to feel strongly one way or the other about his teachings. One buddhist sutra that is repeated throughout is 'Nansen kills the cat', which I've never fully understood the significance of in the context of the story

[Anonymous No.19570284]

>>19570271
that stuttering nigga had to burn the temple to be free from the power its beauty had over him. very zen

[Anonymous No.19571910]

>>19570271
Yeah he seems to engage with religious thought in a more philosophical sense. If I had to speculate he would support religion (specifically the Japanese Zen-Shinto syncretism) as structure which helps build societal/national cohesion. He'd probably be tacitly anti-Christian as it's a blatantly Western influence subverting the idea of Japan he worshipped.
My impression of Nansen kills the cat is that it's such a blatantly nonsensical story that the student who hears it is called to derive meaning as a thinking exercise. Deriving meaning from nothing is very Buddhist. But I'm a filthy gaijin layman, so take this interpretation with a big grain of salt.

[Anonymous No.19571997]

>>19570193
>Do we know his general thoughts on religion?
He started a fucking cult wherein he overtly characterized himself as the symbolic embodiment of traditional Japanese values/ideals. It ended with a traditional ritualistic suicide which he staged as the final sacrifice of old Japanese cultural beliefs to modernity.

We have a solid understanding of his religious beliefs. /Lit is just completely filtered by the fact he was a cult leader; partially because Japanese forms of worship/religion are so alien to Westerners and partially because midwits latch on to the negative connotation of "cult." The latter point is one of the main reasons he's a controversial figure in Japan; his art speaks for itself though, hence him still being lauded.

[Anonymous No.19572046]

>>19570284

[Anonymous No.19572120]

>>19571997
>It ended with a traditional ritualistic suicide which he staged as the final sacrifice of old Japanese cultural beliefs to modernity.
What is the symbolism of the fact that as he died, he came? Was he predicting like 80% of the youth becoming NEET coomers?

[Anonymous No.19572130]

>>19570193
I don't remember which book, but he clearly despises buddhism as anti-japanese.

[Anonymous No.19572154]

>>19572130
Sounds like a massive cope to me. There's more recorded history of Buddhist Japan than (non-syncretic) Shintoist Japan.

[Anonymous No.19572394]

>>19571910
You're close. The point is that Nansen would spare the cat if any of the monks could say one word of Zen. But, all they said was not Zen.

Get it? Because Emptiness.

[Anonymous No.19572405]

>>19570271
(Nansen doesn't actually kill he cat, he just pretends to. The point is what
>>19572394 says)

[Anonymous No.19572433]

>>19570193
>Masugi Kaido's dislike of Buddhism was well known. Full of contempt, he declared that Buddhism, by not possessing a positive relationship to life, was consequently also incapable of affirming death for emperor and empire; after all, Buddhism had no contact with "the life animated with the true spirit", and would therefore never reach the path of the Celestial Grandson, to whom the "parenthesis" was precisely this "spirit-life".

[Anonymous No.19572482]

>>19572394
Zen is a magnet for retards, not even pseuds

[Anonymous No.19572773]

>>19572120
It's a meme/joke.

Just happened upon this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xztvS8eks4U

Haven't watched it yet so I can't vouch...only 500 views but it looks interesting.

[Anonymous No.19572781]

>>19570271
Buddhism is depicted negatively in Spring Snow as Kiyoaki (I think her name was) joins a Buddhist nunnery which stops the guy's romantic advances.

[Anonymous No.19572788]

>>19570284
That's not Temple. That's Conflagration.

[Anonymous No.19572813]

>>19572781
Doesn't really say anything about Buddhism.

[Anonymous No.19573229]

>>19571997
Except Mishima never really showed any signs of giving a shit about believing in specifically Shintoism rather than just a general cultural idea which incorporated his Samurai dreams.

[Anonymous No.19573770]

>>19573229
If you believe that you have no idea what constitutes Shintoism and have been completely filtered by his writing.

[Anonymous No.19573779]

>>19573770
>dude Shintoism is like being a warrior and worshipping the emperor and Japan's great history!
Yeah no, I just have an understanding of Shintoism beyond babby aesthetics.

[Anonymous No.19573809]

>>19570193
Who cares? I don't read faggots

[Anonymous No.19573817]

>>19573809
You just did.

[Anonymous No.19573822]

>>19573817
Lick the shit out of my asshole cuck your the problem with this whole board posting images of unbridled faggot degeneracy holy fuck can you go castrate you and your buddies and eat your besties testes cause im sure nobofy who hangs around with usekess faggot and faggot sympathizers like you is worth half a cell of semen in your nutsack you fucking loser

[Anonymous No.19573863]

Check the Sea of Fertility. All the "clear headed" characters embodied so called rationalism: Western materialism through Honda and Buddhism through Satoko. The reincarnations on the other hand were the opposite -- Kiyoaki was like a Romanticist, Isao was Shintoism (and literslly a Shintoist).

Sea of Fertility brings that tension between chaos and passionate emotion, short life, youth v reason, comfort, old age You could almost envision the tetralogy like an argument with himself. His essays are still untranslated so we can only guess from his writings which he favored. Given he chose the path to a grorious death, seems like Shintoism was his jam. And he writes about it more directly in Runaway Horses btw

[Anonymous No.19573872]

>>19573779
any good books to understand shinto better? i can read japanese.

[Anonymous No.19573874]

>>19573779
Then you should know that it's generally vague and most Japanese people don't see it as religious but a standard of norms and practises in which they partake. If you don't see Shintoism in Mishima's aesthetics and general ethos (i.e. you just attribute it as something referenced via his "Samurai dreams") you don't have a sense of how ingrained Shintoism is and how it isn't something that's literal and direct--it's far removed from the markers of religion as defined by the West.

Mishima's cult was based around a form of Shinto that he developed and expressed via his writing and lifestyle.

I say again--you don't know what Shintoism is and you've been completely filtered by that aspect of his writing.

[Anonymous No.19573879]

>>19570271
>>19572394
>>19572405
Nansen does kill the cat.

Zen views the distinction between subject and object as delusion. Killing the cat kills off the origin of delusive thoughts, especially for people studying Zen and who would look for a "turning word" Nansen demanded.

Joshu, who is enlightened, doesn't engage. You can imagine him thinking "Nansen, you are talking about a cat, but I don't understand you" and having no regard for this concept or even the proper use of sandals.

Nansen represents the side of Zen that kills everything. Joshu represents the side of Zen that gives life to everything. It's one of the most famous koans for a reason.

[Anonymous No.19573884]

>>19573874
I know very well how much he was influenced by it, but how much he actually believed in it is another thing. For example, did he even believe in deities? Did he believe in anything such as that at all? Finding a Japanese person's religious views shouldn't be anywhere near as murky and unsure as you present it. And there is after all the constant question of how much was just an aesthetic purpose with Mishima.

[Anonymous No.19573888]

>>19573874
I know very well how much he was influenced by it, but how much he actually believed in it is another thing. For example, did he even believe in deities? Did he believe in anything such as that at all? Finding a Japanese person's religious views shouldn't be anywhere near as murky and unsure as you present it. And there is after all the constant question of how much was just an aesthetic purpose with Mishima.

Obviously he supported all the Emperor worship stuff and so on, but that hardly explains what he really believed about it on an abstract level.

[Anonymous No.19573980]

>>19573888
You went from saying
>Mishima never really showed any signs of giving a shit about believing in specifically Shintoism
to
>I know very well how much he was influenced by it
Again, Shintoism is more like an ethos than it is a religion in the Western sense. It is very murky (as I've already said, Japanese people do not view it as a religion and are confused if you define it as such). A big part of Mishima is his personal interpretation of Shinto and the cult he formed in relation to it. To oversimplify it a bit--Mishima wrote at a time when Japan was purging itself of aspects of its national character which had been in crisis since the Meiji era and had its last hurrah with the resurgence of militarism during WWII (The Sea of Fertility tetralogy is based around this aspect of Japanese history). It's complex but to put it simply--Mishima was against the purge whereas Japanese post-war sensibilities delineated such as shameful and archaic.

> For example, did he even believe in deities? Did he believe in anything such as that at all?
Kami (what I take it you mean when you say "deities") cannot be translated according to Western sensibilities; you're looking for a literalism that isn't there--there simply isn't a Western translation for what constitutes the connotations of kami. As far as Mishima's nationalism and traditionalism go it is completely obvious that he believed in kami as a guiding force and if you don't see that in his writing you were 100% filtered (just read The Sound of Waves or pay attention to how he goes about symbolism in his work).

Shintoism is abstract--do you think there's a literalism when it comes to "musubi" which, as a concept, tries to tie all aspects of reality, as manifestations of the sublime, together? Further, its character and place within Japan was shifting as Mishima produced his work and a lot of his writing deals with this fact. Hence, Mishima building his own interpretation and starting a cult based around it.

You were filtered.

[Anonymous No.19574051]

>>19572046

[Anonymous No.19574062]

>>19573888
P.S.
>Finding a Japanese person's religious views shouldn't be anywhere near as murky and unsure as you present it.
According to who exactly? See pic,

[Anonymous No.19574121]

>>19574062
Lol reminds me of that movie Silence. Why can’t these kooky Japs quit fuckin actin sus all the time and just worship God?

[Anonymous No.19574153]

>>19574121
>that movie
Read the book. Shusaku Endo (author) was a Catholic.

[Anonymous No.19574158]

>>19573980
>You went from saying
Yes, Mishima never seemed to care about worshipping deities. Or what, you actually got caught on the Western understanding of Shintoism which you're criticising me for?

>you're looking for a literalism that isn't there
Bullshit. Unless you mean something else altogether, 'literalism' necessarily supposes the illiteral and a fiction. What so their ancestors aren't alive or it's some super smart modern psychology where they are alive but they're also not and it's just our experiences?

>just read The Sound of Waves or pay attention to how he goes about symbolism in his work
Wait, so a Japanese traditionalist used themes from traditional Japanese society? No way!!!! Except that's a fictional book, and glorifying a viewpoint or history doesn't mean agreeing with it. So when I do actually have an answer from you about what he believed, it's entirely made up on your end.

>do you think there's a literalism when it comes to "musubi"
Not the same thing at all, this is a specific Japanese philosophical concept, and not just a refusal to explain at all.

Obviously I know about all of the cultural changes at the time, and the actions of his life as they relate to that. But Mishima's cult was not traditionally-harmonious and spontaneous development of new religious ideas as you make it out to be. What it was rides on what Japan is, obviously the Emperor most importantly.

[Anonymous No.19574239]

>>19574158
>which you're criticising me for?
No. I was criticizing you for conflating the idea of worshipping deities as exemplary that Mishima didn't practise Shintoism. It was a very literal assertion for you to make and it's indicative that you don't know what you're talking about (hence projecting and avoiding the actual point I made).
>Bullshit.
You literally did what I said above. You also tried to assert that Shintoism isn't vague (as qualified by Western standards as I alluded to but will state explicitly for your sake) but failed to tie it to anything save for the idea of 'deity.' Shintoism is found within ritualized practices and a generalized worldview. The rest of what you wrote is nonsense.
>Wait, so a Japanese traditionalist used themes
You're being disingenuous and hiding the fact you can't make a connection by being overly vague and straw-manning the point by overgeneralizing. Basically, your point boils down to the fact that themes act as universals and a Westerner can find meaning in Mishima's work. Wow! Deep read there friend. If you understood Shinto as well as you keep saying you do (but without elucidating it for some reason...gee, wonder why) you'd be able to draw connections between the way the geography of the novel underscores kami or how Mishima uses natural phenomena (wind/storms) as a motif to act alongside an emphasis on the purity of character of Shinji and his relationship with Hatsue. Oh! Natural phenomena are in Western novels too? Wow, I guess that means there's no such thing as a differing character when it comes to world literature--you should email a university right away and let them know you've discovered such a profound key that solves literary criticism as it pertains to differing cultures.
>Except that's a fictional book, and glorifying a viewpoint or history doesn't mean agreeing with it.
That point is just retarded. I'll help you out--your take is that the entire novel is just a glorification of rural life that Mishima doesn't agree with because it's a work of fiction? Completely off-topic and has nothing to do with Shinto but ok. Also pretty shallow.
>Obviously I know
No, the only obvious thing is that you were filtered. It's also fairly obvious at this point that you're not very smart and have a very shallow understanding of Shintoism, Japanese culture in general, and Mishima's place in it specifically.
>Mishima's cult was not traditionally-harmonious and spontaneous development of new religious ideas as you make it out to be
I didn't make it out as such. I'm also willing to bet you didn't even realize it was a cult until I pointed it out above because you were...say it with me now...completely filtered. Your only take so far is that he liked the Emperor as if this is somehow the key to understanding Mishima's cultural ethos.

Again, you were filtered. Are you done being BTFO? I need to get to bed; I have a friend from Japan visiting and I have to pick her up at the airport.

[Anonymous No.19574247]

>>19574158
Re >>19574239
>>Except that's a fictional book, and glorifying a viewpoint or history doesn't mean agreeing with it
Just wanted to add that if you're referring to The Sea of Fertility series that point is even dumber.

[Anonymous No.19574439]

>>19574158
Based.

[Anonymous No.19574588]

Mishima was the man, what can you say about such discipline today if it still exist? most people with his caliber for life become part of the Oppressors.

[Anonymous No.19574666]

>>19570193
He was more in the pro-Buddhism camp if going by his fiction.

Someone correct me if he ever praised Shinto. Compared to the anime I watch that way overuses Shinto, Mishima zen-buddhism was refreshing.

[Anonymous No.19575590]

>>19573879
>Nansen does kill the cat.
Nah, he makes a motion with his hand as if he did. No Zen monk would harm anything, not even to make a point about Zen.

[Anonymous No.19577198]

>>19572788
same book, retard

[Anonymous No.19578040]

>>19574051
>Mizoguchi
Hey, my name i-
>Kashawagi
>

[Anonymous No.19579305]

>>19571910
>He'd probably be tacitly anti-Christian as it's a blatantly Western influence subverting the idea of Japan he worshipped.
Mishima was openly anti Christian in at least some of his political writing. He saw it as accepting, to the point of proliferation, of behaviors that corrode masculine virtue. He also saw the reverence of Mary as idiotic.

[Anonymous No.19579391]

Kind of ironic for him to believe Christianity corrupts masculine values when he masturbated to the idea of being a martyr.

[Anonymous No.19579392]

>>19570193
Have you even read any of his work? He mentions his stance constantly. Fuck you I won't spoon feed your illiterate ass.

[Anonymous No.19579402]

>>19579391
Christianity didn't invent martyrdom, are you retarded or something?
And Mishima wanted to die as a ritual scapegoat for Japanese historical culture and patriotic values, not really comparable to religious martyrdom. Maybe somewhat more in line with politically active buddhist sects across Asia.

[Anonymous No.19579425]

>>19579402
You're genuinely retarded. Mishima coomed himself to Sebastian, no doubt an exemplification for Mishima of 'weak' Christian values which dies for no earthly gain.

[Anonymous No.19579439]

>>19579425
>can't understand Mishima's views on religion because he's too busy presupposing the connection between Mishima's internal philosophy and the man's sexuality
>literally can't stop thinking about a gook jacking off
>calls others retarded
Did you ever stop to think that Mishima wasn't completely dictated in life by his weird sex obsessions?

[Anonymous No.19579454]

>>19579439
>Mishima wasn't completely dictated in life by his weird sex obsessions

[Anonymous No.19579461]

>>19579454
Keyword being completely.
Not that you'd know it from published english editions of his works, since they're almost only his novels and those of course contain the highest concentration of gook weirdness because it sells the best to his (primarily female) audience.

[Anonymous No.19579513]

>>19579461
Do you mean to say any of his essays are more important than his novels, aside from Sun and Steel?

[Anonymous No.19579581]

>>19579513
>more important than his novels
Depending on your definition of important. If you just want to know who Mishima was, sure his novels are the best way to go, but understand you're reading curated works of aesthetic fiction.
If you want to understand his philosophy and politics, you need to read his other essays.
There's some endlessly based anon on here who was translating some of those essays I believe from the Japanese (some of Mishima's broader works were published in Japan before his family locked up all his 'embarassing' manuscripts), and Mishima's Discourse on Misogyny just got posted on here the other day. So his essays can be found if you're willing to look.
Personally I think The Anti-Communist Manifesto is an extremely important work both for the appreciation of Mishima and in modern political thought in general.

[Anonymous No.19579584]

>>19579581
>some of Mishima's broader works were published in Japan before his family locked up all his 'embarassing' manuscripts
*And also in French, iirc