/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.21698358]

>The puer aeternus very often has this mature, detached attitude toward life, which is normal for old people but which he acquires prematurely—the idea that life is not everything, that the other side is valid too, that life is only part of the whole of existence. Here the death-temptation prevents the little prince from going right into the earth. Before he has even touched it the snake comes in and says, "If you don't like it, you know a way out." So before he has gone down to earth, he has already had the offer of death. I have met many people with a similar difficult constellation who do that: they live only "on condition," which means that secretly they constantly flirt with the idea of suicide.At every step of their lives they think they will try something or other and that if it does not work they will kill themselves. The puer aeternus always keeps his revolver in his pocket and constantly plays with the idea of getting out of life if things get too hard.The disadvantage of this is that he is never quite committed to the situation as a whole human being; there is a constant Jesuitical mental reservation: "I will go into this, but I reserve my right as a human being to kill myself if I can't stand it any more. I shall not go through the whole experience to the bitter end if it becomes too insufferable, for if it does I shall walk out of it." And therefore the person does not become whole. If one cuts off the wholeness of the experience, one cuts oneself into bits and remains split because transformation can only take place if one gives oneself completely to the situation

That's me, is there any way to solve this?

[Anonymous No.21698416]

>>21698358

[Anonymous No.21698475]

>>21698358
Explain why murder is a sin if most people who rather be killed than many things

[Anonymous No.21698545]

>>21698475
Anon had a stroke

[Anonymous No.21698548]

>>21698358
>is there any way to solve this
Yeah, by getting outside your comfort zone. Stop being a pussy. Life just is. You don't have to caress and carry it next to your bosom. You have to let it go and let live, because there's no part of life that needs to be saving, no part of life that needs to be questioned, but only a life that is to be lived. And so, the greatest antidote to the puer aeternus is: going outside your comfort zone and taking risks.

[Anonymous No.21698563]

>>21698358
Why would you want to solve it? Because some coping psychologist thinks suicide is le bad? Living with the Stoic mindset (which is what she just described, despite her attempt to infantilize it) is excellent, so long as you are actually courageous enough to go through with it when the time is right.
>And therefore the person does not become whole.
There is virtually no right to assert this. The person who approaches life with the thought that any moment could be his last or that he always has an exit route is more likely to become a whole than the person who is perpetually fearing the consequences of death and disease. Whoever wrote this spiel is halfway blind, but then I don't expect much more from psychologists.

[Anonymous No.21698572]

>>21698358
I fell for that Jungian stuff for a while too, it is total unscientific bullshit

[Anonymous No.21698577]

>>21698563
umm anon, i think she's calling them pussies, not courageous stoics

[Anonymous No.21698626]

>>21698577
And I just explained why that's wrong.

[Anonymous No.21698647]

>>21698572
>total unscientific bullshit

[Anonymous No.21698774]

>>21698647
Jungians literally need to be medicated, constellate this schizos

[Anonymous No.21698803]

>>21698416
The modern world is a grotesque nightmare of abstract nonsense and immaterial concerns which are alien to human nature. You’ll excuse the rest of us if we don’t enjoy living like authority-dependent insects in a civilization that is so utterly detached from a real, concrete existence, that it classifies apathy as a maladjustment to the madness.

[Anonymous No.21698831]

>>21698563
>The person who approaches life with the thought that any moment could be his last or that he always has an exit route is more likely to become a whole
I think the point of the fragment is less about suicide exactly, but more a particular disposition that is forever unable to fully commit themselves to anything believing that there must be "something better" beyond the experience itself.

[Anonymous No.21698850]

>>21698358
>The puer aeternus very often has this mature, detached attitude toward life, which is normal for old people but which he acquires prematurely—the idea that life is not everything, that the other side is valid too, that life is only part of the whole of existence.
What is this from? This line struck a cord with me, as I am exactly like this. I wish I could stop questioning everything constantly. I'm unable to enjoy myself and unable to understand anything. I've never been able to form a coherent worldview about anything. I lack certainty in myself.

[Anonymous No.21698876]

>>21698358
>One might also speak of a puer animus when describing the masculine side of the female psyche, or a puella anima when speaking of a man's inner feminine component.
>
Was Jung the o.g tranny?

[Anonymous No.21698920]

>>21698831
That's a universal human experience. Human life is defined by privation of one sort or another. The fact that the situation you're in can always be both indefinitely better or worse is a general fact of human existence, and that you are not even in control of your emotions and thoughts, let alone your body, let alone the way life affects you, positively or negatively. The "Stoic" response is one of the most honest avenues for progressing in honesty with yourself, that is without being crippled by the anxiety of universal possibility (that your present situation can deteriorate and become potentially infinite suffering, or the reverse, at any moment, without seeming reason or cause). The conditionality of the value of life is the exact opposite of never being able to commit to life, it's what allows you to commit to life in the first place without simply playing intellectual tricks with yourself like psychologists do, that is when you realize that death is the non plus ultra which ultimately nullifies all risk and resultant suffering.
>but more a particular disposition that is forever unable to fully commit themselves to anything believing that there must be "something better" beyond the experience itself.
If this is all it's about, then it is extremely vague and could encapsulate anyone, open to suicide or not open to suicide. The quote is far more specific about the type of mentality it is criticizing, not just delayed gratification, which is effectively what you just described (and which there is nothing wrong with in and of itself). "Experience", by the by, is a meaningless catchphrase, just like "the instant" or the "moment." It's an abstract phantasm which doesn't
really exist.

[Anonymous No.21699019]

>>21698920
What he's describing is someone who, like a child, cannot commit to going through anything completely because there's this possibility of a finality beyond himself (death). A finality which would negate everything he experiences.
It's not about suicide as much as having this possibility of a total opt-out in the back of your head, which leads one to be overly detached. I think you are approaching this from the wrong angle. He is describing a particular mentality and its deficiencies, perhaps one that was intimately familiar to himself.
>That's a universal human experience. Human life is defined by privation of one sort or another. The fact that the situation you're in can always be both indefinitely better or worse is a general fact of human existence
Right, of course I agree, but his point is that suicide derives from a desire to escape from that incomplete aspect of life. To dull the pain of life with the promise of an exit-door . The day to day existence may be better or worse, but it is not sufficient there must be something more than this. And the thought of suicide he's suggesting becomes kind of like heaven is to a Christian, a possibility to obtain an end in itself, rather than the unsatisfying provisional everyday aspect of life.

[Anonymous No.21699031]

>>21699019
it’s a she btw
Marie-Louise von Franz

your post is bang on though, you explained it better than i could’ve (as someone who personally feels afflicted with puer aeternus)

[Anonymous No.21699166]

>>21699019
>because there's this possibility of a finality beyond himself (death). A finality which would negate everything he experiences.
This is, of course, certain. Anyone who comprehends this and still commits to life as though it is an end in itself is a fool, albeit a wordly fool, someone who is prudent, established, who is always "working on something" but never finishing anything. In every culture and religion in history which has not deluded itself, life has been seen as an intermediate state and journey between worlds, particularly due to its immediately apparent transiency. All throughout the Middle Ages, life was known even by the lowest as the preparation for eternity, as the "night watch." There are different connotations in Christianity, but the basic spirit is the same. The real question in life is what is worth committing to. No psychologist has ever answered this question. They simply skirt around the question as the author of this quote has so clearly done, even on this small scale of a paragraph.
>but his point is that suicide derives from a desire to escape from that incomplete aspect of life.
The point made in the quotation originally given was that suicide is there as an option to make life a "conditional" fact, a conditional which consequently actually means one is not enslaved to life. Which has nothing at all to do with escaping life, and everything to do with escaping the horrific aspects of life*. And the pseudo-alchemical nonsense in the quotation about "going down into the Earth" has virtually no meaning in this context. Chances are if you were to request the author to elaborate on what she even means by this phrase, she would follow up by providing some lukewarm bourgeois response like "having a family", "raising children", or something equally mundane. Anything which traps the spirit and turns it into a domesticated house animal, because a domesticated, albeit intelligent, animal which doesn't consider its own miserable death and fate is what passes for wisdom today.

*I am providing some related quotes by Seneca below:
>He who says [that one should die naturally] does not realize that he blocks off the road of freedom. The eternal law did nothing better than giving us one entrance into life, but many exits. Should I await the cruelty of disease or man, when I am able to exit through the middle of tortures and shake off my adversities?
>But you know this, to how many men it (death) is useful, how many men it frees from tortures, destitution, ailments, torments, and weariness. We are in the power of no one, when death is in our power.
>Freedom is in sight. This is the prize I am working for. What is freedom, you ask? To be a slave to no situation, to no necessity, to no chance events; to force fortune onto an even playing field. On that day when I know that I am more powerful, fortune will have no power. Shall I put up with her, when death is under my control?

[Anonymous No.21699168]

>>21699166
The wise man presents an awesome spectacle. Knowing, as he does, the difference between virtue and vice, good and evil, and things that are indifferent, and knowing his own strength, both physical and mental, the wise man is able to withstand any amount of torture, illness, poverty, and pain with a firm and tranquil mind, and has no fear of death at all. He feels physical pain, but his mind does not collapse: he will never view any of these things as bad. The wise man may commit suicide under such conditions, but not to escape pain. He will exit only when it seems right for him to do so, when he is sure that the sufferings he is undergoing make virtuous action impossible. The wise man is always free because he is never forced to do anything against his will. Suicide plays a role in the freedom of the wise man because it allows him to exit when he should. The wise man, not fearing death as an evil and knowing that he can commit suicide at any time it is called for, is completely free and in control of his own fate.

It is this [sc. death], I say, that prevents birth from being a punishment, that prevents me from collapsing in the face of the threats of misfortunes, that allows me to be able to keep my mind safe and under my own control. I have a higher court of appeal. Over there I see torture devices not of a single design, but constructed in different ways by different people. Some men have hung their victims upside down, others have driven a stake through the genitals, others have wrenched the arms with a fork-shaped yoke. I see racks, I see whippings, and each joint and limb has its own custom-made torture machine. But I also see death. Over there are sadistic enemies, arrogant citizens. But over there too I see death. It is no trouble to be a slave, when, if one grows tired of the master, in one step one can walk to freedom. Life, I hold you dear through the kindness of death.

[Sage No.21699702]

>>21698358
Stop reading psychology for starters

[Anonymous No.21699741]

>>21698358
A woman wrote this.

[Anonymous No.21699768]

>>21698850
thats anyone in a postmodern society

[Anonymous No.21699784]

>>21699741
You have a uniquely high opinion of women, kudos anon

[Anonymous No.21699811]

>>21698572
>it is total unscientific bullshit
and thats a good thing

[Anonymous No.21699826]

>>21698626
You didn't though. You talked about a different type of person than the author was talking about. Stoics have their courage and sense of duty that, if they are good stoics, would keep them from entertaining the idea of suicide. They would accept all suffering as impermanent not because they have a way out in offing themselves but because they will die naturally, and they wouldn't feel such suffering much anyway because they would be fixated on doing their duty and what is right. The people the author is talking about are people that set up a cut off point for suffering where they would off themselves if they reached it, regardless of duty or what is right. If they can't take it any more they can take the cowards way out. Thats not the brave stoic at all.

[Anonymous No.21699997]

That's literally me, minus the kill myself part.

[Anonymous No.21700015]

>>21699997
But thats the best part...

[Anonymous No.21700027]

>>21698358
>is there any way to solve this?
They give you the answer in the first lecture. Work, unfortunately. Also, I'm reading that together with Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents and the two books go hand in hand in the topic. You should check it out, op

[Anonymous No.21700070]

>>21700027
>Emotionally Immature Parents
What if my parents aren't emotionally immature but I was born autistic

[Anonymous No.21700076]

>>21699999
>>21700000

[Anonymous No.21700083]

>>21700070
Unless you're diagnosed by a doctor, your autism MAY be the result of the way you were raised.

[Anonymous No.21700880]

>>21698358
Have sex, unironically, getting a woman will solve this

[Anonymous No.21700903]

>>21698572
yeah same it didnt help that i have family in the business who have access to all the obscure texts. wasted quite a few years on retarded jungian drivel

[Anonymous No.21701437]

>>21700903
FILTERED

[Anonymous No.21702895]

>>21699784
>uniquely high
Well, I am a junkie. But the most important step is admitting one has a problem. Here's mine.

[Anonymous No.21703165]

>>21698358
>That's me, is there any way to solve this?
Step 1 is realizing psychology is retarded schlock.
Step 2 is realizing anything written by a woman is worthless.
Step 3 is doing something better with your time than entertaining neurotic bullshit devoid of all merit or substance.

[Anonymous No.21703190]

>>21703165
I'll add, in case you're dumb enough not to be convinced by such a strong refutation as I have offered, that the conditions the OP describes have diametrical expressions as well.

That a person is willing to kill themselves at any moment could just as easily enable them to commit fully to a situation as not. The fact I can extricate myself from a situation at will gives me power over it, I have nothing to fear, and no cause to hesitate. What sounded so deep and impressive to you faggots was actually an argument for the reverse. It's only deluded losers who never had any real intention or capacity for suicide that fit the mold OP tries to force, and their problem is precisely their break from reality, not any kind of so called arrested development.

[Anonymous No.21703206]

>>21703190
Ironically all of this has been better and quicker expressed before in cliché.

The only thing required to break from said mold is to experience mortal danger. Your suicidal ideation will reveal itself as hollow and with any luck a deep shame will follow as you are forced to reconcile your fear of death and desire to live with your living death.

[Anonymous No.21703228]

>>21698850
Puer aeternus - Marie-Louise von Franz

[Anonymous No.21703988]

>>21698358
Yeah man you need to kys to rid yourself of "living on the condition"

[Anonymous No.21704164]

>>21703165
I agree.

The Nietzche-Op is strong on this site. Nietzche is just another Ricky Gervais or Hitchens meant to spread sassy nihilism.

Also any french philosophy might as well be written by a woman.

Baudrillard is pretty cool however because his stuff influenced the Matrix, Gore Verbinski and Inglourious Basterds.

(I know we're talking psychology but I misread it as Philosophy and I already wrote this comment)

[Anonymous No.21704990]

>>21703165
based

[Anonymous No.21705020]

>>21698358
Puer, meet wise old man

[Anonymous No.21706935]

>>21699826
>If they can't take it any more they can take the cowards way out. Thats not the brave stoic at all.

Suicide takes far more courage than continuing on the day to day. There's a reason suicide is rare. Most people are too cowardly to ever do it.

[Anonymous No.21707139]

>>21706935
Giving in to temporary suffering isn't brave, even if the alternative is facing death. Everyone faces death at some point, not everyone gives up in the face of suffering. Seams to me like everyone finds the courage to face death. Not everyone buckles under the influence of suffering. Making suicide the cowards way out.

[Anonymous No.21707165]

>>21704164
>influenced trash, gore verbinski, and double mega trash

The Weather Man is a very good movie

[Anonymous No.21708703]

>>21703190
> It's only deluded losers who never had any real intention or capacity for suicide that fit the mold OP tries to force
Literally me. How do I fix this?

[Anonymous No.21708716]

Jung was a legit quack desu.

[Anonymous No.21708722]

>>21707139
>temporary suffering
Retard

[Anonymous No.21709241]

>>21708703
All you have to do is confront the death you pretend to be on first name terms with.

[Anonymous No.21709246]

>>21704164
What’s funny is that Baudrillard’s writing is nothing like the Matrix. or rather the Matrix is what an American would understand after reading Baudrillard.