[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/lit/ - Literature

View post   
File: 98 KB, 353x500, L.N.Tolstoy_Prokudin-Gorsky.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2230366 No.2230366 [Reply] [Original]

>"I remember the astonishment I felt when I first read Shakespeare. I expected to receive a powerful esthetic pleasure, but having read, one after the other, works regarded as his best: "King Lear," "Romeo and Juliet," "Hamlet" and "Macbeth," not only did I feel no delight, but I felt an irresistible repulsion and tedium... Several times I read the dramas and the comedies and historical plays, and I invariably underwent the same feelings: repulsion, weariness, and bewilderment. At the present time, before writing this preface, being desirous once more to test myself, I have, as an old man of seventy-five, again read the whole of Shakespeare, including the historical plays, the "Henrys," "Troilus and Cressida," "The Tempest", "Cymbeline", and I have felt, with even greater force, the same feelings,—this time, however, not of bewilderment, but of firm, indubitable conviction that the unquestionable glory of a great genius which Shakespeare enjoys, and which compels writers of our time to imitate him and readers and spectators to discover in him non-existent merits,—thereby distorting their esthetic and ethical understanding,—is a great evil, as is every untruth." Tolstoy on Shakespeare.

>> No.2230371

I liked Macbeth and Othello to an extent. I think Shakesman is alright.

Reading War and Peace right now. It's worth it's praise but the Peace part of the book is a bit of a chore.

>> No.2230370

"You know, I don’t want to be offensive. But ‘Infinite Jest’ [regarded by many as Wallace’s masterpiece] is just awful. It seems ridiculous to have to say it. He can’t think, he can’t write. There’s no discernible talent." - harold bloom on dfw

poorly substantiated critiques by people who ought to know better general?

>> No.2230373

Listen, that's because Tolstoy is a motherfucking G and was a genius level artist. You're not. Shakespeare actually probably has a lot for you.

I like Shakespeare. But Tolstoy is my favorite and he would fucking spit on you OP. You and me.

>> No.2230374

>>2230371
are you fucking serious guy? too bad the peace parts (or at least the parts not directly related to warfare) are the best of the book

nihcolas hunting, and kissing his cousin, when he meets princess mary, both of andrei's deaths, pierre in moscow, etc etc

>> No.2230380

>>2230374

Chill with the spoilers. I'm only at page 300.

>> No.2230385

Tolstoy's wrong, deal with it.

>> No.2230387

>>2230370
Once you're older, you'll try to re-read "Infinite Jest" and find that it's try-hard garbage. Wallace's characters are 2D and everyone talks like he does. It's poorly written.

Just because a book is long and has a pretentious title doesn't mean it's good.

>> No.2230388

psst...tolstoy overcame what shakespeare never bothered with

>> No.2230390

>>2230388

Dying of pneumonia?

>> No.2230391

>>2230373
Are you upset about something??

>> No.2230394

>>2230387

even granting that as true (its not), bloom's critique is really poorly written too... he doesn't address anything specific whatosever about the book, it could be about any book, he couldve written it without reading the book, he's just drawing upon his past authority to give credence to his statement and that's lazy as hell

hence why i said "poorly substantiated" and not "wrong" (even though both of them are)

>> No.2230395

Of course Tolstoy is wrong. Shakespeare is objectively better than Tolstoy.

>To begin with, his examination of KING LEAR is not "impartial", as he
twice claims. On the contrary, it is a prolonged exercise in
misrepresentation. It is obvious that when you are summarizing KING LEAR
for the benefit of someone who has not read it, you are not really being
impartial if you introduce an important speech (Lear's speech when
Cordelia is dead in his arms) in this manner: "Again begin Lear's awful
ravings, at which one feels ashamed, as at unsuccessful jokes."

Read Orwell's Lear, Tolstoy and the Fool.

>> No.2230397

>>2230373

Just because he's a genius (and no one is disputing that Tolstoy was a genius), that doesn't put his opinions in a place of privilege.

Geniuses can be/are wrong sometimes. Sometimes they're wrong frequently!

>> No.2230402

>>2230370
Pretty sure Bloom has had something to say about Tolstoy's hatred of Shakespeare. Something about trying to escape his influence, like some oedipal patricidal shit

>> No.2230404

>>2230394
1.) It is true. DFW couldn't into character.

2.) Bloom made that comment about DFW in a very off-the-cuff way during an interview. It's not like he sat down and rote that as a review of DFW. He was speaking quite glibly only to suffice an answer so the interviewer would go on to ask him about somebody with talent.

>> No.2230406

>>2230395
You should read this anyway, by the way. It's such an elegant essay.

There is no argument by which one can defend a poem.
It defends itself by surviving, or it is indefensible. And if this test
is valid, I think the verdict in Shakespeare's case must be "not guilty".
Like every other writer, Shakespeare will be forgotten sooner or later,
but it is unlikely that a heavier indictment will ever be brought against
him. Tolstoy was perhaps the most admired literary man of his age, and he
was certainly not its least able pamphleteer. He turned all his powers of
denunciation against Shakespeare, like all the guns of a battleship
roaring simultaneously. And with what result? Forty years later
Shakespeare is still there completely unaffected, and of the attempt to
demolish him nothing remains except the yellowing pages of a pamphlet
which hardly anyone has read, and which would be forgotten altogether if
Tolstoy had not also been the author of WAR AND PEACE and ANNA KARENINA.

>> No.2230409

>DFW/Bloom feud

Oh boy.

The only thing I found wrong with IJ was that I didn't want to spend that much time with Hal. Orin was far more interesting.

>> No.2230414

>>2230409
They were the same.

>> No.2230428

>>2230414
I knew that.
You knew that.

Poor little Timmy over here didn't know that because he hasn't read it yet. Nice spoilertags, you mistake.

>> No.2230431

>>2230404

as for (1), pretty sure an argument could be made that the two-dimensionality of the characters was deliberate, but that's a whole other can of proverbial worms

but, like, even off the cuff, a sterling prof at yale with the temerity to make a list of the western canon should be able to say at least one pertinent thing about an important book he dislikes that much

even just the characterization point you made, that would've been one thing, but he just says "it's a bad book because it's a bad book"... it's the kind of tautology that you would think would be beneath him

>> No.2230436

>>2230406
i don't like shakespeare much but that is a solid defense.

>> No.2230437

I have a crush on Joelle.

>> No.2230445

>>2230431
>but that's a whole other can of proverbial worms
>but, like, even off the cuff, a sterling prof at yale with the temerity to make a list of the western canon

Lawl, u tryna write like DFW.

>> No.2230446

Can we all stop pretending that everyone in this thread has read Infinite Jest?

>> No.2230460

>>2230446
I haven't, but I'm only here to talk about Tolstoy and SHakespeare

>> No.2230463

>>2230446
Can you stop pretending that to have read Infinite Pest is to like it?

>> No.2230471

>>2230463

I'm not pretending any such thing. I haven't read it, and I'd like to. I have no opinion on it yet, I'd just like to not have any of it spoiled for me.

>> No.2230474

>>2230463

wow killer pun man up top!

>> No.2230573

>>2230414
Nah brah, Orin had more verve. Hal was a near-autist. I remember towards the end, when he and the other kids are watching a cartridge in the viewing room, I sincerely thought Hal was going to get it in (or at least something would happen) with one of those two girls that sits down with him -but no.

.

>> No.2230597

>>2230573
Herp derp, the characters are different because one is slightly more spry and daring.

Shut the fuck up, twat.