/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.23040891]

>ohhh look its me Earnest Hemmingway
>oooooh look i'm a big drunk """"masculine"""" guy
>also tho i'm a sad bean
>i'm a sad bean about the war
>also i'm socialist
>also i'm gona kill myself
>but guyz, its cool guyz
>cause like also i'm like also a great writer in stuff
>i mean I was technically bad, misspelled words all the time and wrote in fucking elementary prose but HEY!
>its me earnest hemmingway!
>big sad earnest hemmingway!!!
>le boy was not there to wet le line
>ohhh wow look at me, hollyshit
(is unironically considered one of the greatest writers of all time)
Why is everything academics consider to be good so shit /lit/??

[Anonymous No.23040899]

>>23040891
When you read Hemingway what you are reading is Stein made safe for a middlebrow audience.

[Anonymous No.23040903]

>>23040891
>>>/r/eddit

[Anonymous No.23040906]

>>23040899
Yeah i kinda buy that.
He has a real
>"Lets give this slop to the GIs in the fox holes so they stay okay with fighting along side the soviets"
vibe to him.
Like he's the 100 old version of marvel shit and sports ball.

[Anonymous No.23040922]

>>23040903
Hemingway is reddit, yes.

[Anonymous No.23040928]

>>23040891
what do you consider good literature?
also this board is absolutely mainstream

[Anonymous No.23040931]

>>23040928
>also this board is absolutely mainstream
far from it

[Anonymous No.23040997]

>>23040928
I dont know maybe a book where the overiding message isn't to kill yourself, give up on all you endeavors and just like quitely fucking drink yourself to death in some sexless dark corner of the world as everything goes to shit around you.
Maybe a story with some fucking.
Some eating.
Some working, some sleeping, some shitting and some singing.
You know a story about human LIFE; not just an ego unahppily trapped in a self propetuating shell of a body ruminating endlessly on depression and how
>"le boy is not there to wet let line!!!"
Beowulf,
The Odyssey
Grimms fucking Fairy Tales WHATEVER, just not this dull life boring pathetic life hating SHIT.

[Anonymous No.23041241]

>>23040997
Are you the guy who always seethes about Modernist poetry? Covering your eyes and pretending that modernity doesn't exist isn't going to make it go away, you understand that, right? You have achieved object permanence?

[Anonymous No.23041760]

>>23041241
Try claiming that shit after the bombs fall faggot.

[Anonymous No.23041873]

>>23041760
>after the bombs fall
Would be a perfect time to make new literary works in a more classical style. In our current culture, however, it's going to ring false. I'm sure there are people out there doing it and I'm sure it's totally unremarkable because it's just a lesser, less authentic version of the actual classics. In a post-apocalyptic society, the bardic tradition will have room to flourish once again.

[Anonymous No.23041875]

>>23040891
Hemingway. One M. He's not a verb.

[Anonymous No.23041881]

>>23041760
>>23041873
The two phenomena even disconnected - the Odyssey and Beowulf were written in a time and place where you *could* fuck someone up irl if they challenged your literary opinions. If you're not living in a heroic world, your attempts at writing heroic literature will read more like Don Quixote than the Iliad.

[Anonymous No.23041889]

>>23041881
aren't even*

[Anonymous No.23041906]

>>23040891
This is a bad post but I agree with it. I always thought Hemingway was insincere. It didn't help that the only three people I knew who liked Hemingway were insufferable people.

[Anonymous No.23041939]

>>23040997
>Some working, some sleeping, some shitting and some singing.
>You know a story about human LIFE;
>...
>The Odyssey


Then comes the part where our hero, brave Odysseus,
Took to the thicket, his bowels in distress.
With a grunt and a heave in the leafy recess,
Released his spunk, staining the green, groaning under duress.

"With this shit I do part, as a ship leaves its port,"
Did declare he, wiping his arse with no short of a snort.
Leaf by leaf from the sacred olive tree,
His noble booty clean, from blemish free.

Unto the camp where his men lay dreaming,
Odysseus swaggered, his visage beaming.
"A song!" he cried, "To celebrate this night's joyous theme,"
"The triumph of man, and the digestive stream."

So he sang to the flicker of the dying fire's light,
Of his journey's next chapter, the end just in sight.
In verses that flowed like the wine from their cups,
The Ithacan king, ever the victor, once more risen up

[Anonymous No.23041950]

>>23041881
>The two phenomena even disconnected - the Odyssey and Beowulf were written in a time and place where you *could* fuck someone up irl if they challenged your literary opinions.
Well...
To be clear you CAN now.
Italian mobsters just aren't much ones for high literature.
Its funny, i almost wonder now if part of the reason stand up comedy has retained much of its clasic character is due to the involvement of the mob, drunks, working class people in its patronage...

[Anonymous No.23041954]

>>23041875
>ERNEST, not earnet, lol, lmao even

indeed.

[Anonymous No.23041973]

>>23041939
Honestly would rather read this tongue and cheek ts eliot style parody over half the shit the pump out after hemmingway got his greecey hands on the artform

[Anonymous No.23042010]

>>23040891
Hemingway proves /lit/ is nothing but plotfags who don't even know the basics of literature. Hemingway is grouped in with the modernist for good reason, his writing is very much concerned with the individual with the role of society being the effect of society on the individual, it is not about the societal as the plotfag believes. Hemingway's primary theme is exploring mans role in a society where the nature of man is becoming increasingly irrelevant and says that men should be the little spoon except when society needs a big spoon because hey there is a war on!. Pynchon got this and made his name on a blunter more verbose rework of Hemingway, not that Pynchon is blunt just that unless you are a Brautigan or a Soseki it is going to be blunter than Hemingway and most will also be more verbose although Brautigan managed to make Hemingway look verbose.
>>23040899
Retarded hot take that is probably going to make Stein huge on /lit/ and I am fairly curious about how the plotfags of /lit/ will interpret Stein. Her not being so dependent on implication and context like Hemingway was makes her a bit easier for the plotfag but the way she plays with language is probably going to filter them.

[Anonymous No.23042020]

>>23040899
Hemingway called Stein a kike in a letter to Pound because she wasn't sure about publishing him IIRC.

[Anonymous No.23042064]

>>23042020
That was after Stein called Hemingway a coward for stabbing Anderson in the back after Anderson got him his first publishing deal and gave him the in to the Paris crowd and everyone who would be important in his writing life. She was not a publisher, she told Hemingway he shouldn't publish it (The Torrents of Spring) bt if he was he should at least send Anderson a copy before it comes out and not hide from the consequences. Hemingway refused, she called him a coward, he sulked for a few decades and then finally went back to Stein with his tail between his legs and told her she had been right.

[Anonymous No.23042074]

>>23042020
Sounds petty.

[Anonymous No.23042097]

>>23040891
>misspelled words all the time
How do you know it?

[Anonymous No.23042120]

>>23041881
and that's how I learned to love the bomb...

[Anonymous No.23042127]

>>23041881
>>23041950
gangsta rappers will write the new epics. now I see

[Anonymous No.23042136]

>>23042127
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessity_and_sufficiency

[Anonymous No.23042148]

>>23042136
wanna talk shit, BIG BOY???
duel now.

[Anonymous No.23042152]

>>23042127
>>23042136
And also I'm sure the most competent gangsta rap songs do in fact have more vitality as heroic poetry than anything an upper middle class MFA writer could do in the same genre.

>>23042148
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ubSwbyd0uI

[Anonymous No.23042196]

>>23042127
I mean they already kinda do dominate culture in a weird way…
>>23041950
May be closer to the mark then he knows

[Anonymous No.23042207]

>>23042010
whats a plotfag and why is it bad

[Anonymous No.23042216]

>>23042207
A “fag” who gives a shit about the plot apparently
Invention of Joyce readers I suspect

[Anonymous No.23042219]

>>23040899
My favorite /lit/ meme.

[Anonymous No.23042223]

>>23040997
>where the overiding message isn't to kill yourself, give up on all you endeavors and just like quitely fucking drink yourself to death in some sexless dark corner of the world as everything goes to shit around you.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with doing this.

[Anonymous No.23042225]

>>23042207
it's from /a/nimefags who would watch things for the plot and not the cute girls. Don't know how it applies to /lit/ but I guess it means people overly concerned with the structure of a written work.

[Anonymous No.23042227]

>>23042223
Ur gay

[Anonymous No.23042237]

>>23042207
It is someone who primarily interprets literature through plot and plot devices. When it comes to literary fiction this does not work very starting around the rise of modernism since plot starts to take a backseat to other structures and literary devices which are not dependent on plot. This change actually started during the realists but but you can generally get most of the way there on plot with them.

[Anonymous No.23042249]

>>23042207
>whats a plotfag
a plotfag is a gravedigger, he loves skeletons
a plotfag is a mechanic, he loves the gear
a plotfag is a mathematician, he loves his proofs

[Anonymous No.23042266]

>>23042237
what does knowing or caring about any of these things do to enhance your enjoyment or understanding of a novel?

[Anonymous No.23042280]

>>23042266
If the novel uses things other than plot for making its point and conveying meaning you are not going to have much of an understanding and end up like OP. Enjoyment is subjective and you may not enjoy those aspects of literature. Nothing wrong with being a plotfag as long as you don't being a retard about it like OP.

[Anonymous No.23042288]

>>23042280
>as long as you don't being a retard
Christ, I have been making a lot of errors like this today.

[Anonymous No.23042563]

>>23041950
>tfw you resite your sonets of praise around the post acocaliptic war lord you have to pay hommage to seasonally
im here for it

[Anonymous No.23042575]

>>23042020
B A S E D

[Anonymous No.23042580]

>>23042064
What a faggot Hemingay was. Betraying his mentor and the people who helped him out.

[Anonymous No.23042595]

>>23042064
>then finally went back to Stein with his tail between his legs and told her she had been right.
sez who? that's certainly not the impression of stein one gets from a moveable feast, nor do i recall any remark to that effect in the auto of alice b.

[Anonymous No.23042612]

>Hemingway is the big famous "masculine" literary icon that everyone reads and adores
>Not REH
The biggest tragedy of 20th century literature.

[Anonymous No.23042617]

>>23042595
Moveable feast is not very accurate unless you believe Hemingway is the only reliable source and everyone else is wrong. But I was not being literal there, Hemingway didn’t actually have a tail. Stein never really had a grudge with Hemingway, she told him what she thought and that was the end of it for her, he cut off communication with her for it and that is what he apologized for, turning his back on her. It is documented somewhere.

[Anonymous No.23042624]

>>23042617
>It is documented somewhere.
fair enough

[Anonymous No.23042635]

>>23042624
Even without the literal source if you know anything about them than you know Stein was not the sort to hold grudges over drama and Hemingway was and that it was going to be up to him to bridge the gap he made.

[Anonymous No.23042660]

>>23042617
>Stein never really had a grudge with Hemingway
she called him "yellow" in alice b, a plain slap in the face to the manly hem. i'd say she had a grudge, and he returned the jab in feast. tit for tat. a cursory web search doesn't suggest there was ever any kind of reconciliation between the two, but there may be something out there to that effect.

[Anonymous No.23042684]

>>23042660
That is not a grudge, he was being a coward so she called him a coward, that was the end of it for her. She was direct and blunt and did not pushy foot around what need to be said which is a major part of why so many in the arts community sought her advice, she gave it straight.

You didn't make a cursory look, willing to bet money Wikipedia on Hemmingway has it complete with a reference.

[Anonymous No.23042692]

>>23042684
Yup, Google brought up Wikipedia as first result on my search.

>On August 25, he was present at the liberation of Paris as a journalist; contrary to the Hemingway legend, he was not the first into the city, nor did he liberate the Ritz.[114] In Paris, he visited Sylvia Beach and Pablo Picasso with Mary Welsh, who joined him there; in a spirit of happiness, he forgave Gertrude Stein.[115] Later that year, he observed heavy fighting in the Battle of Hürtgen Forest.[114] On December 17, 1944, he had himself driven to Luxembourg in spite of illness to cover The Battle of the Bulge. As soon as he arrived, however, Lanham handed him to the doctors, who hospitalized him with pneumonia; he recovered a week later, but most of the fighting was over.[113]

[Anonymous No.23043011]

>>23040891
Dude fuck you. I’d kill myself if you weren’t around anon. Even by being the cunt shitposter that you are. How lonely must that ape-shit man felt ?

[Anonymous No.23043015]

>>23040997
If you like that stuff you should try Hemingway

[Anonymous No.23043035]

>>23040899
I don't know of any work of Stein and Hemingway that is anything alike. Which two are you thinking of?

[Anonymous No.23043048]

>>23040891
>>23040899
>>23040903
>>23040906
>>23040922
With people that don't like Hemingway, it's always people that too stupid to understand it. You try to discuss one of his books with them, and they don't even understand the basic concepts of the story

[Anonymous No.23043060]

>>23040903
>>23040922
literature is reddit. /lit/ is the reddit of 4chan

[Anonymous No.23043526]

>>23042612
His action scenes are so fluid and easy to read and he's very poetic. The fact that people overlook his work is a tragedy. I think he's the best American fantasy writer and even his adventure boxing novels are fantastic reads.

[Anonymous No.23043716]

>>23043048
it's not that deep though. what is there to miss?

[Anonymous No.23044691]

>>23040891
>Earnest Hemmingway
troll detected

[Anonymous No.23044700]

>>23040997
>Maybe a story with some fucking.
>Some eating.
>Some working, some sleeping, some shitting and some singing
Have you considered reading the
A Song of Ice and Fire series?

[Anonymous No.23044738]

>>23040997
>kill yourself, give up on all you endeavors and just like quitely fucking drink yourself to death in some sexless dark corner of the world as everything goes to shit around you.
ACTUAL books for this feel?

t. living it

[Anonymous No.23044930]

>>23043716
Apparently there's characters that are secretly dickless running around in his books. What the fuck is that all about?

[Anonymous No.23044938]

>>23044738
>kill yourself, give up on all you endeavors and just like quitely fucking drink yourself to death in some sexless dark corner of the world as everything goes to shit around you.
Holy fucking based!

[Anonymous No.23044993]

>>23040891
>>23041973
>>23042684
>>23042692
It's spelled Hemmmingway. With Three M's.
>>23040899
>>23040922
>>23041906
>>23041875
>>23042010
>>23042020
>>23042064
>>23042612
>>23042617
>>23042660
>>23042692
>>23043015
>>23043035

[Anonymous No.23045657]

>>23044738
>>23044938
Fags

[Anonymous No.23045663]

>>23044700
Its mid but very jouvinile in style.
Its a teenagers idea of what would be a "cool" story not bad but not really what i look for in high literature; its pornographic in a way.
A sort of dull reflection of the romance I want.
(Martin is a better writer then Hemmingway though)

[Anonymous No.23045670]

>>23043048
>le boy was not there to wet le line...

[Anonymous No.23046606]

>>23042692
>he forgave Gertrude Stein
That's the opposite of telling her "she had been right." You forgive someone when you think they've been in the wrong.

>>23042684
>That is not a grudge
Pfft. If she'd used the word "coward" you might have a plausible argument. But she called him "yellow," used a deliberately insulting slang word. That's a bitchy remark, and spiteful in a way that smacks of a long-held grudge.

>he was being a coward so she called him a coward

I think he was just being an asshole, and generally agree with the following, quote:

Still, it seems that Hemingway had almost immediately regretted his parody of Anderson. Flanagan notes, “In an undated letter to Anderson (probably 1926) Hemingway expressed his concern over wounded feelings. ‘I still feel badly about having ever written to you in an ex cathedral or ex-catheter – they have catheters as well as cathedrals over here – manner but I think that is just that the young have to be very sure always, because the show is really very tough and it is winning all the time and unless you know everything when you’re twenty-five you don’t stand a chance of knowing anything at all when it’s had time to shake down and you’re thirty-five”. This, of course, isn’t much of an apology but it’s the closest that would come out of Hemingway....

Before Torrents, Hemingway was in Paris meeting the likes of Pound and Stein. Focusing specifically on Gertrude Stein, she lavished incredible praise upon herself for not only recognizing Hemingway’s talent, but for attempting to take credit for it. Stein’s [Autobiography] came out nearly a decade after Torrents. She had a fervent loyalty to Anderson and Hemingway’s novella cut not only into Anderson, but Stein’s style as well. She didn’t recover from this slight as she recorded her venom in her book...

Stein attacked Hemingway’s manhood by calling him “yellow” and had claimed that he was weak and “afraid.” Whereas Hemingway knew what he was doing when he parodied Anderson, he did it not personally, but professionally.

Hemingway also wrote Torrents while he was young. Stein, however, was older and she made the point of attacking Hemingway personally because she felt a personal affront to him. She also had very strict loyalties to Anderson. Here we recognize Stein’s biases in her own words, “[Stein and Anderson] have always been the best of friends but I do not believe even he realizes how much his visit meant to her”. Her biases, self-congratulations and ego, of which she should’ve noted during her Freud-like writing, was flagrantly obvious throughout her autobiography. Much of her truths in the book could also be called into question since she did admit to writing it solely for the money, and what will bring in more money other than name dropping and turning on one of the most popular writers of the time, Ernest Hemingway?

https://justabouthistory.com/2021/05/13/hemingway-the-modern-pivot/

[Anonymous No.23046801]

>>23040899
>Stein made safe for a middlebrow audience
So elevated then?

[Anonymous No.23046809]

>>23046606
>But she called him "yellow," used a deliberately insulting slang word.
You're so fragile

[Anonymous No.23046913]

>>23046809
Just calling a spade a spade, m8. Likewise, I i called Hem an asshole, cos it's not my brief to defend his reputation or honor.

But otoh, frankly, *you* seem a bit 'fragile' wrt Stein, always scurrying to put the most attractive spin on her remarks, albeit having to torture the meaning of same to achieve that end, e.g., "if you know anything about them than you know Stein was not the sort to hold grudges over drama."

Orly? The evidence, laid out in >>23046606 is to the contrary. Torrent "cut" not just Anderson but Stain, and "She didn't recover rom this slight as she recorded the venom in her book."

And even if we could magically wave away the evidence of Stein's grudge against Hem, there remains this:

> Much of her truths in [Autobiography of Alice B] could also be called into question since she did admit to writing it solely for the money, and what will bring in more money other than name dropping and turning on one of the most popular writers of the time, Ernest Hemingway?

I don't have a beef with GS, but she was hardly an ethical paragon; rather, I would say, she was simply human, all too human.

[Anonymous No.23046934]

>>23046913
Yellow is just another word for coward. It's not a grave insult lol come on.

[Anonymous No.23046985]

>>23040891
Hemmingway is famous only because of his name. Imagine if his name was Ernest Spud.

[Anonymous No.23047006]

>>23040891
FACT: He was a tranny.

https://www.crossdreamers.com/2021/04/yes-ernest-hemingway-was-transgender.html

[Anonymous No.23047056]

>>23046934
There's a different valence between the two words, coward and yellow; the latter is not a neutral descriptor, but rather slang from the street that conveys a kind of sneering contempt for the person so accused. Rather like the difference between calling someone a Jew vs a kike. In using the term, Stein well knew she was hitting Hem where it hurt.

[Anonymous No.23048152]

>>23040891
I recently ordered an old Playboy issue that had his granddaughter (Margaux Hemingway) on the cover. Real great pictorial; real captivating woman and interesting write-up on her. Only found out later that she killed herself same as her grandad. Real sad.

[Anonymous No.23048229]

>>23048152
He really is the Jordan Peterson of yesteryear. Just a weak, showy cuck, promoted by Jews.