/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.23093547]

No wonder the state of literature today is terrible.

[Anonymous No.23093551]

>No Greek in Classics
What do they study, then?

[Anonymous No.23093554]

>>23093551
Swahili

[Anonymous No.23093557]

>>23093551
Feminist retellings in Swahili

[Anonymous No.23093562]

>>23093554
lol I didn't even see your post before I said Swahili as well

[Anonymous No.23093564]

>>23093551
Gay feminist retellings in Swahili

[Anonymous No.23093566]

>>23093551
I assume they read the works in translation. They just don’t learn the Greek language.

[Anonymous No.23093567]

>>23093551
Gayhili

[Anonymous No.23093570]

>>23093547
>>23093554
/pol/ dogwhistle

[Anonymous No.23093573]

>>23093547
>removing writings by cultures foreign to the anglos to "combat racism"
lol okay.
Absolutely retarded and to be honest I wonder how much of this is teachers coping for being too retarded to understand the classics and just merely framing it as virtue signalling to hide how dumb they are

[Anonymous No.23093583]

[Anonymous No.23093601]

>>23093570
chud site

[Anonymous No.23093604]

>>23093583
YOUR GREAT GREAT GREAT GRANDMOTHER
FUCKED A NIGGER
AND SO YOU
MY FRIEND
ARE AN EGGPLANT

[Anonymous No.23093606]

>learning to read texts in the original language is racist
??????
Is the French department forbidden from making their students learn French as well?

[Anonymous No.23093608]

>>23093583
isn't he lebanese? what would he know about meds?

[Anonymous No.23093612]

>>23093608
Lebanon is med, get over it /leftypol/

[Anonymous No.23093618]

>>23093608
imbecil

[Anonymous No.23093626]

>>23093547
can someone tell me the marxist materialist analysis of something like this? what component of this is all about economics instead of ideology

[Anonymous No.23093630]

>>23093626
It looks like systems of bourgeois self-replication are decohering as the traditional culture of the local bourgeoisie is thrown into the furnace. Hegemony is in internal conflict.

Basically it is of no interest as Classics doesn't immediately reproduce the PMC, but does so through a boys-network hiring system.

Also historical materialism isn't all about economics. Read. Socialism: Utopian & Scientific is the pamphlet. 18 Brumaire is the long form.

[Anonymous No.23093637]

>>23093583
What is this Arab whining about?

[Anonymous No.23093639]

>>23093630
this is retarded
>historical materialism isn't all about economics
because marxoids don't understand economics

[Anonymous No.23093641]

>>23093626
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1890/letters/90_09_21.htm
so basically, none of it.

[Anonymous No.23093644]

>>23093551
They read modern feminist and queer retellings and translations in English. They never learn Latin or Greek because niggers are too retarded to learn anything but ebonics and simple English (this is where Emily Wilson's translations enter the scene).

[Anonymous No.23093648]

>>23093639
Economics has rational agent ranked order pricing as a field specifying assumption.

You've misprised historical materialism twice without citing.

You, sir, are the economist.

[Anonymous No.23093658]

>>23093547
isn't it racist to imply that they're TOO STUPID to learn greek / latin

[Anonymous No.23093659]

>>23093658
Liberals are condescending and racist, only they don't know it.

[Anonymous No.23093661]

>>23093551
Homosexuality in mythology and women’s issues seriously this focus of modern classics. To be fair this “classics” program is designed for people not going on to a master or PHD where they still require you learn both Greek and Latin. This version of a Classics bachelors is meant for networking and preparation for the LSAT not a life in academia.

[Anonymous No.23093745]

>>23093551
Amerishart lard-pig studies

[Anonymous No.23093750]

>>23093551
The Song of Achilles

[Anonymous No.23093768]

>>23093547
Yeah, literature is dying because no one is learning Greek and Latin anymore. Think of all the Ancient Greek and Latin books that have been written in the past few centuries that wouldn’t have been written if this travesty of discontinuing those languages in universities happened in 1600…

[Anonymous No.23093769]

>>23093547
In what sense is learning a language racist?

[Anonymous No.23093803]

>>23093630
what does any of this have to do with the leaders of western society feeling bad for black people so they intentionally become more mediocre to stoop to their level? economics are the contingent, defining aspect of life according to marxism. what is the economic contingency of white guilt and minority worship when they are literally the least productive members of society

[Anonymous No.23093809]

>>23093769
It condescendingly implying blacks are too stupid to read anything but English.
Monolinguals = blacks

[Anonymous No.23093839]

>>23093547
So what's the point of getting into a $500k plus tip debt just learn that white folk le bad? That on top of no job opportunities.

[Anonymous No.23093840]

>>23093547
Ecce ego latine loquendo nunc "peior quam Hitler" sum

[Anonymous No.23093866]

>>23093554
>>23093557
Kenya (implicitly) mentioned!!!!! o(*^▽^*)o

[Anonymous No.23093867]

greek is the only language, druid lives matter

[Anonymous No.23093874]

>>23093547
Well I know next to nothing about classics in the academy, but I think the argument that requiring Latin and Greek proficiency before getting let in is racist is obviously wrong. That's ideology. But while people do believe in ideology and it's not entirely cynical, there are usually other motivations at work... like they want to draw more students to it because the classics has a self-imposed reputation as an elitist subject for a shrinking number of homeschooled white kids from rich and ultra-conservative families who send them to study pre-3rd century BC Greek texts to strengthen their immortal souls. But how do you keep this thing going when the money and resources are going into STEM?

That also wouldn't even describe most Twitter people with handles like Lolistotle, etruscanRAGE, and PepeAeschylus1488 who extol classical western civilization but clearly have only a superficial grounding in it. They're new to it, too. Are you happy to see new blood enter the scene or are you annoyed that these johnny-come-lately classics nerds are appropriating a culture you were in before it was cool?

[Anonymous No.23093876]

>>23093551
Your mom she poses nude for art class

[Anonymous No.23093886]

>>23093547
No surprise
I graduated from a university well known for its Classics program in the mid 2000's with a BA in Classics. By my last year I was outperforming grad students to the point I was tutoring them in understanding texts. They cared little for Latin and Greek and viewed it as a burden. Their concerns were elsewhere.
The focus of Classics programs is no longer linguistics, etymology, philosophy, discovering more about the ancient world. That gets no papers published or grants. Instead it is all about fagging and trooning and blacking the field as much as possible. Look at the conferences, at papers published in almost any journal, at the DEI grandstanding in every Classics department. All of it is geared towards 'queering' the discipline and amounts to word salad justifying the author's bias towards buttsex and muh diverse ancient world where every other Roman was a proud negro who dindu nuffin. It is disgusting and the few old guard Classicists still left hang their heads in shame while the dead turn in their graves.
Purely coincidentally, new Classics professors in the past 20 years or so are overwhelmingly female. Hence the above and every passing reference to a Roman female, women who typically had one name and that the feminine of their father or husband, deserving a paper and detailed study due to her strength, bravery, beauty and the accomplishment of having been mentioned by Livy or Tacitus in section 27 of book Whatever. The new agenda is women controlled Rome and were just as powerful as men. Not isolated incidences here and there but as a general rule, questioning or disputing which will have you blackballed.
As an undergrad I wrote a thesis on Catullus' references to and changing relationship with Caesar. Fully cited, my own translations, references to relevant passages in other authors both contemporary and modern. Old professor loved it. School journal rejected it and instead published a paper on the homosexual undertones of Orpheus and a poor translation of an epigram into rap. That was when i realized Classics was a dead field in academia and the only way forward was self-study.

[Anonymous No.23093892]

>>23093874
>requiring Latin and Greek proficiency before getting let in
Read the article. They are removing Latin and Greek requirements to graduate, not enter.

[Anonymous No.23093896]

>>23093551
Ebonics.

[Anonymous No.23093902]

You know, I'm starting to think the racists might be on to something...

[Anonymous No.23093938]

>>23093886
Most genuinely depressing post I’ve read in a long time.
Hope your self-studies are going well, anon. Godspeed.

[Anonymous No.23093943]

>>23093608
Anon, I...

[Anonymous No.23093945]

>>23093570
The truth, then?

[Anonymous No.23093948]

Niggers.

[Anonymous No.23093974]

>>23093637
He's greek

[Anonymous No.23094133]

>>23093803
Capitalism is divided against itself along many axes. Among them is racism; it was a convenient invention for primitive accumulation, but bourgeois society nevertheless contains a drive toward legal (but not socioeconomic) equality. I predict that this particular contradiction will resolve with an elite that matches local demographics and endeavors to maintain itself as such, so that everyone can feel they have "representation" at the top of the economic pyramid. This is ultimately useless to the masses, of course, but at least it will clear up class conflict as the only salient battle line.

[Anonymous No.23094151]

>>23094133
Capital delocalised in the 1970s.

[Anonymous No.23094152]

Academia was always a worthless state slave, universities won't exist in 10 years and good riddance.

[Anonymous No.23094158]

>>23093809
Perhaps the classics course should not cater to people who are not interested in learning them.
It would be preposterous to suggest that a theology course not mention god.

[Anonymous No.23094164]

>>23093547
Why the FUCK would anyone waste their time and money at a post-secondary institution like this anymore? You've got the worst freedom of speech ranking possible, ridiculous tuition fees, professors that hate you, no job prospects, a shit curriculum, and no pussy 'cause everyone's afraid of talking to one another. This shit is just plain pathetic now.

[Anonymous No.23094165]

>>23093626
>>23093630
Classics need to lower their standards to attract students. Everything else is babbling. You can call me "a vulgar materialist" and I can call you a pseud that read Ehrenreich once, but it's not worth it.

[Anonymous No.23094169]

>>23094151
And populations, both mass and elite, will grow more diverse as time passes too.

[Anonymous No.23094172]

>>23093809
they're more correct than the mainstream... just not for why they think.

[Anonymous No.23094189]

>>23093547
Learning Greek and Latin in 2024 for a degree is useless because its use would be highly highly specialized and most likely used in academia teach in a highly highly specialized niche. It’s just swirling the train getting more useless and useless

[Anonymous No.23094204]

>>23094189
>muh current year
shut up

[Anonymous No.23094213]

>>23094189
Yeah you're right it was much more widely applicable in 1850
Fool!

[Anonymous No.23094218]

>>23094213
In 1850, lots of important medical works were still untranslated so yeah it actually was.

[Anonymous No.23094226]

>>23094218
We're talking about a classics degree so take your >akshually shtick somewhere else you fuckin nerd

[Anonymous No.23094243]

>>23093547
Meds are not white, so this is racist.

[Anonymous No.23094250]

>>23093886
>Purely coincidentally, new Classics professors in the past 20 years or so are overwhelmingly female. Hence
Coincidentally, yes.
I've attended a university in an Eastern Europe country, for a historian degree. Had a lot of female teachers there, 3 of them trying to teach me Latin and Greek languages.
They were extremely competent at it; I was dumb as fuck at that time; and it was quite a brutal experience.

[Anonymous No.23094264]

the memes are all true

[Anonymous No.23094287]

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[Anonymous No.23094291]

>>23094264
Why seasons 1 and 2 of Seinfeld, they’re among the shortest in sitcom history and most episodes don’t represent the show entirely

[Anonymous No.23094303]

>>23093551
I studied English in the early 2010s and it was largely just praising Native stories (even the literal "White Devil" stereotype)

[Anonymous No.23094349]

As a minority, and not much of a smart one, learning Ancient Greek has not been difficult. This just shows how watered down the humanities has become.

[Anonymous No.23094352]

>>23094291
The Pony Remark was a good one

[Anonymous No.23094360]

Americans: no Greek, no Latin, no German, no French, no Chinese, no Russian. Not even English is a requirement anymore.
What do they do all day in high school? Are they and their teachers not even trying?

[Anonymous No.23094385]

>>23094360
They learn swahili.

[Anonymous No.23094391]

>>23094264
You forgot the requirement watching of <The Office™>
Ahh, a classic on the same level as the Odyssey, the Avneid, and the Bible.
Truly an American classic.
New generations are going to be studing it, as we study Homer's classics.

[Anonymous No.23094398]

>>23094226
Virtually all of the Hippocratic and Galenic corpuses were untranslated before Sir Francis Adams translated them in the 1870s. There was still loads of stuff you wouldn’t be able to read in English. Even Plato only existed in literal translations which were difficult to read or use.

[Anonymous No.23094402]

>>23093551
They still study Greek and Latin. This removes the requirement for people to have an intermediate knowledge of these languages before they start the course.

[Anonymous No.23094419]

>>23094360
To be fair. Since we're a new continent far away from the old world I feel like Americans should study different things.
But we don't study anything. Not even our own authors and poets really. Barely our own history.

[Anonymous No.23094426]

>>23094419
America is a weird case where they have everything yet nothing at the same time.
It's just paradoxical.

[Anonymous No.23094468]

>>23093547
Might as well redact all academics

[Anonymous No.23094494]

>>23093547
Damn what's the point of even going to uni at this point lmao? Is a "professional" of the classics not supposed to be able to read the originals? How retarded lol.

[Anonymous No.23094500]

>>23093658
You're spot on.

[Anonymous No.23094507]

>>23093886
If true this is brutal. Jesus.

[Anonymous No.23094511]

>>23094494
Seems the academics were already on their way out but now they might as well be a dead horse. Shit. Too late as usual huh.

[Anonymous No.23094541]

>>23093547
"Academia is dead and we killed it"
Frederico Amerigo.

[Anonymous No.23094562]

>>23093551
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/02/magazine/classics-greece-rome-whiteness.html

>Dan-el Padilla Peralta thinks classicists should knock ancient Greece and Rome off their pedestal — even if that means destroying their discipline.

[Anonymous No.23094575]

>>23094562
So, a complete academic suicide?
Are they insane?????

[Anonymous No.23094588]

>>23094575
Overly political people, I guess. The same problem with other areas of academia, media, etc

[Anonymous No.23094613]

>>23093886
Interesting read. Maybe you could make a blog or youtube exploring the field and how politics is taking front and centre over genuine study.

I think a surprisingly number of people would be interested in that kind of thing and I'm sure others have their own stories to tell.

[Anonymous No.23094616]

>>23093547
>jews erase history to meme white people out of existence

fixed that frankfort school headline for you. total kike death and resist all drafts with violence

[Anonymous No.23094623]

>>23093886
Why did the old Classics professors allow this to happen to their field?
Surely, people who appreciated Plato, Aristotle, Cicero would have the backbone to fight back?

Or was it a case of careerism? People who were in it for the status and money who couldn't care less about the field but were mostly concerned with Saturday afternoon's golf?

[Anonymous No.23094629]

>>23094623
The old classics professors weren't there, they already retired, by the 2000.
Its all new people coming in after that.
That's probably why they didn't figth back.
Because they weren't in the field anymore or already retiring.

[Anonymous No.23094657]

>>23093583
>the point of Classics is to understand the mind of a half-arab zucchini vendor peasant wop

[Anonymous No.23094667]

>>23093554
>>23093557
>>23093866
Kenya is one of my favourite places, awesome for a visit if you're ever fancying some travel. NOTHING to do with classical literature, but I'm a fan

[Anonymous No.23094701]

>>23093886
>The focus of Classics programs is no longer linguistics, etymology, philosophy, discovering more about the ancient world. That gets no papers published or grants. Instead it is all about fagging and trooning and blacking the field as much as possible
This is untrue. It's the pseudofication of everything, and the necessity of getting a degree to maintain a social status. Classics was always fucking sexually depraved, to the point we used occasionally try to ban women from learning Greek when most people were illiterate, just because they class whores and overly educated upper class women moght get ideas or, worse, tell the normies. The reason why our first description of penguins is in ancient Greek is because only the most educated should be allowed read about rape, cannibalism and necrophilia.
Classics always had a strong and depraved female following, but the pseudery you're talking about is a more pervasive and middle class house proud kind. People didn't read Catullus writing oral rape threats and write treatise on oral purity in the Roman imagination without noticing that was some male on male sociosexual aggression back then either. The problem with the modern pseudery is they don't know there's no need to make shit up, nor do their opponents, because none of them can read the source material. Most of the original Victorian documenting of classics purposefully used languages and library collections to gatekeep the juicy stuff from the middle and lower classes, especially those with only Latin education like the professions or rich women. The stuff that wasn't translated is the really uncomfortable for Victorians shit, and the stuff that was translated for the middle class consequently gets built up as the most homo shit, purely because these people can't tell you the etymology of pornography.

[Anonymous No.23094703]

>>23094701
>they class whores
High class whores

[Anonymous No.23094708]

>>23094701
I agree.
People who study classics have always been retarded.
Even back in the Victorian age or the 1700 to 1800 AD,or whatever, they were already retarded.
Im fine with some random person reading these text in their own free time, but people who dedicated their entire lives to it have always been retarded.
So i agree.

[Anonymous No.23094711]

>>23094708
Not just retarded, depraved. It's the equivalent of being a level >9000 hentai collector

[Anonymous No.23094721]

>>23094711
Yeah i can see that.
>ohh, look at my Ancient greek love poem or whatever (totally not pornography), it's so high class i have a whole collection of this authors "writings" (pornography) in by home library and i can read in the original attican greek, im so smart and high class.
Totally not a pathetic -9000 level porn addict hiding his porn addiction with excuses.

[Anonymous No.23094756]

>>23094721
To be fair, a classics major with Greek would emphasise it's Corinthian Greek, not Attic, to say what you're saying, but yeah, basically

[Anonymous No.23094788]

>>23094264
This is a masterpiece

[Anonymous No.23094829]

>>23093551
queer coded mythological animals living under greek fascism

[Anonymous No.23094841]

>>23093547
what authors studied classics at princeton again

[Anonymous No.23094855]

>>23093547
There was a study done among Harvard students to see what was their main goal with their education. The overwhelming majority responded with one thing: money.

The #1 reason why everything is shit today is because of capitalism, but not because the ideology is bad. Rather, because the majority of Americans are no longer English or Scottish, the ethnic groups of people who gave birth to and held mastery over capitalism as an ideology. No other people can sustain this ideology reasonably; they become gluttonous for power and allow the concept of money to tyrannize them.

The next frontier for human beings (not subhumans) will be on Mars.

[Anonymous No.23094859]

>>23094623
Long March paid off. Humanities were the entryway. Classics was an easy infiltration.
A slow degradation is much harder to battle and see coming. Overton window shifts bit by bit. Once the remaining Old Guard realized what was happening the ones who spoke up against it were outnumbered and not only in their department but at all levels of academia.

[Anonymous No.23094865]

>>23094360
They just "learn" about slavery and the Holocaust all day.

[Anonymous No.23094868]

>>23094402
Wrong, read the article. In fact, read what Princeton has to say about it
https://paw.princeton.edu/article/curriculum-changed-add-flexibility-race-and-identity-track
>The “classics” track, which required an intermediate proficiency in Greek or Latin to enter the concentration, was eliminated, as was the requirement for students to take Greek or Latin. Students still are encouraged to take either language if it is relevant to their interests in the department. The breadth of offerings remains the same, said Josh Billings, director of undergraduate studies and professor of classics. The changes ultimately give students more opportunities to major in classics.
>as was the requirement for students to take Greek or Latin.
inb4
>b-but they are encouraged...

[Anonymous No.23094875]

>>23094855
still jarring to me seeing an immigrant country blaming their problems on immigration

[Anonymous No.23094877]

Let's see what is going on in the current world of Classical academia. Some of the highlights
https://classicalassociation.org/conference/
>CLASSICAL ASSOCIATION CONFERENCE 2024
>The Programme includes a keynote lecture... on ‘Undoing Monumental Racecraft: The Acropolis Otherwise’
>The exhibition ‘Black Classicists’ will also be displayed in the Atrium of the Faculty of Arts Building throughout the conference.
>Teaching Queer Pasts
>A full programme of panels and workshops throughout the three days of the conference explore the conference themes:
>Beyond Greece and Rome
>Ecocriticism, Ecopoetics, and the Environment
>Medical Humanities
>Migration and Mobility
>Memory and Monumentality
>Performance Cultures
>Race, Gender, & Class
>Temporality

[Anonymous No.23094879]

>>23094875
No such thing as an "immigrant country"

[Anonymous No.23094880]

>>23094360
I learned swahili

[Anonymous No.23094883]

>>23094859
it paid off culturally but economically things seem to tell a different tale. nonwhites just want gibs and less cops, not to actually risk overthrowing the system. some billionaires seem to want to implement it all the same but somehow i'm sure it must feel like a pyrrhic victory in hindsight, should've collaborated with the natives instead of being paranoid over hitler.

[Anonymous No.23094886]

>>23093547
Peak clown world.

[Anonymous No.23094887]

>>23094879
no?

[Anonymous No.23094896]

>>23093570
>>>/lgbt/

[Anonymous No.23094898]

>>23094887
No. It wasn't a country until the English and Scottish showed up — it was just a piece of land before then. The founding families were the first natives, and this is how all countries are established.

[Anonymous No.23094899]

>>23093608
Are you genuinely retarded?

[Anonymous No.23094903]

>>23094877
Let's turn our attention to the Society for Classical Studies, the premiere conference of the discipline
https://classicalstudies.org/annual-meeting/program-outline-2024-annual-meeting
To be fair plenty of offerings seem normal but when contrasted with the ones below I have doubts as to their integrity
>SCS-6: A Workshop on Classics, Racism, Bias: Discussion and Praxis on American History, Mythology, and Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. (Workshop)
>SCS-22: HYBRID: Taking Stock: Stereotypes in the Ancient Mediterranean (organized by the Asian and Asian American Classical Caucus)
>SCS-32: HYBRID: Indigenous Perspectives, Ancient and Modern: A Mountaintop Coalition Panel (Panel)
>SCS-42: HYBRID: Topics in Classics and Social Justice (organized by Classics and Social Justice)
>SCS-54: HYBRID: Gender, Queerness, and Disability in the Ancient World (organized by the Women’s Classical Caucus)
>SCS-65: HYBRID: Queering the Hero (organized by the Lambda Classical Caucus)
Bonus racial meetings:
>Pachanga: Hispanic/Latinx Grad and Faculty Happy Hour
>Reception: Asian and Asian American Classical Caucus
>First Generation Low Income Federation (FGLIF) Community Meeting
Here is a blurb about the last
>The First-Generation Low-Income Federation (FGLIF) supports people interested in the study of the ancient Mediterranean world who come from first-generation and/or low-income backgrounds, including all underprivileged and underrepresented groups, from high school students to emeriti faculty. FGLIF was created with the goal of diversity, equity, inclusion, and mutual support in the profession.

[Anonymous No.23094904]

>>23093840
hahaha hoc nigrvm comedere faba

[Anonymous No.23094914]

>>23094877
Level infinity cringe.
If these people saw the people they admire in their classics, they would realize, that the classical writers would be laughing at them.
Diogenies would punch these people in the face and balls,if he was alive in that room, while the other greek philosophers and writers would rhetorically destroy their identity in a destructive way for them to intentionally hurt these cringe people.
Cato the elder would start with claming these people must be destroyed while Cicero is preparing to strike.
Cicero would then give them a fucking speech destroying what they have left in their soul.
Hesiod would then give them the cabbages for them to go into farming, since it's clear they don't deserve their job.
How i wish for them to see the people behind the classics that they (supossedly) "admire",and how they would be ashamed and laughing at this behavior.

[Anonymous No.23094921]

>>23094189
Wrong. We need people to translate newly discovered texts. Contrary to what most people might think, there are still reams of ancient documents left to be translated and discovered.

[Anonymous No.23094924]

>>23094903
Ethnic studies are the hot thing now.

[Anonymous No.23094925]

>>23094898
what separates the 'native' immigrants from the ethnic ones? that they arrived a couple decades later? didn't kennedy call it a nation of immigrants.

[Anonymous No.23094927]

>>23093547
this news is all from back in the Spring of 2021

religion and classics increased flexibility for concentrators, including eliminating the requirement for classics majors to take Greek or Latin.

In religion, courses for concentrators are now available in two main “streams.” The first, called traditions, “encompasses different religious traditions, approaches, geographical areas, and time periods,” and the second, called themes, allows students to concentrate on thematic areas, according to a department memo
...
For example, students can pursue Islam and religions of Asia, or they can pair religion with media, art, philosophy, or politics.

In classics, two major changes were made. The “classics” track, which required an intermediate proficiency in Greek or Latin to enter the concentration, was eliminated, as was the requirement for students to take Greek or Latin. Students still are encouraged to take either language if it is relevant to their interests in the department. The breadth of offerings remains the same, said Josh Billings, director of undergraduate studies and professor of classics. The changes ultimately give students more opportunities to major in classics.

“Having people who come in who might not have studied classics in high school and might not have had a previous exposure to Greek and Latin, we think that having those students in the department will make it a more vibrant intellectual community.”

[Anonymous No.23094931]

>>23094264
is this trying to imply that seinfeld is in any way bad? fuck off

[Anonymous No.23094933]

>>23094925
Natives aren't immigrants, by definition. A country first comes into existence within the hearts of its natives, who then formalize this heart-feeling via legislature. Immigrants are those in whom the country in which they currently inhabit only exists theoretically rather than in their hearts; they don't share the heart-feelings which the country is founded on. Because the country only exists theoretically for them, they can't fully grasp the philosophies behind the country's existence, and are therefore unable to sustain the country in the long run.

[Anonymous No.23094939]

>>23094927
modern news is that Princeton is now allowing a minor in Classics!

Alex Konovalov (an Economics major), Class of 2025: Princeton's First Classics Minor

After Princeton University announced it would begin offering minors with the undergraduate class of 2025, the Classics Department’s proposal for a new minor was among the first accepted. Accordingly, the Fall 2023 semester saw the establishment of a flourishing new cohort of Princetonians minoring in Classics. We sat down with Alex Konovalov '25, the first to enroll in the new program, for a conversation about his classics journey, his course of study, and how the two intertwine:

I came across Professor Cheung’s class, "The Roman Empire: 31 BC to AD 337," and after reading the course description, I thought it seemed interesting and out of my typical variety of classes. So I decided to enroll in it and see what Classics was all about! Long story short, I absolutely loved the class

. After finishing that class, I continued to take a Classics class every following semester.

While Economics and Classics may appear as two completely divergent disciplines, there are a plethora of different ways in which they overlap. Thanks to my knowledge of various economic trends and theories, I have been able to apply concepts learned in Economics classes to several courses within the Classics Department. Studying the laws of supply and demand in my Macroeconomics class, for example, aided in understanding the importance of efficient trade routes as well as the inception of currency throughout ancient Roman provinces.

[Anonymous No.23094944]

>>23094927
>was eliminated, as was the requirement for students to take Greek or Latin
>>23094939
Wonder if he was also not required to take Greek or Latin

[Anonymous No.23094945]

>>23094925
>someone who staunchly supported the cia despite the misinformed claims to the contrary supports cia propaganda intended to make the third world look to america and not the ussr for help
oh now there's a big surprise

[Anonymous No.23094956]

>>23094933
that's just americans you're describing. american patriotism doesn't exist naturally, it's taught in schools. don't they do the pledge of allegiance over there for morning prayers?

[Anonymous No.23094961]

>>23094956
I'm not describing patriotism.

[Anonymous No.23094972]

>>23093583
the point isn't to "understand" classics, it's to become a tenured professor in spewing your shitty take on classics at Oxford and be set for life doing one of the laziest jobs on the planet for the most pay

[Anonymous No.23094977]

>>23094961
tradition. culture.
>Immigrants are those in whom the country in which they currently inhabit only exists theoretically rather than in their hearts
i.e. yanks

it's why america takes her writers too seriously. she regards them as key operators in the national heritage business.

[Anonymous No.23094982]

>>23094419
>t. false-flagging euro
No American thinks in terms of the "new" and "old" world.

[Anonymous No.23094987]

>>23094977
NTA, but we take our writers seriously because they're the best in the world.

[Anonymous No.23094989]

>>23094982
>t. fake american
Every self respectable american thinks in new/old world mentality.
Its part of america's national mythos.
The fact that you are an idiot dosen't mean anything.

[Anonymous No.23094992]

>>23094987
lol

[Anonymous No.23094998]

>>23094939

First class they are reading in in Greek
>We will read in the original Greek.

Second class they use translators
>All reading will be done in translation (by female translators, as much as possible); the act of translation itself will be a theme in the course.

Princeton Dept of Classics to Offer New Courses for Spring 2024

(CLG214) GREEK PROSE AUTHORS: VIRTUE AND KNOWLEDGE IN PLATO'S PROTAGORAS
>a study of Plato’s dialogue Protagoras. We will read the dialogue in the original Greek. We will also encounter other sophists such as Prodicus and Hippias....and Socrates’ discussion of a poem by Simonides

(CLA229) WOMEN, WRITING, GREECE: FROM SAPPHO TO VIRGINIA WOOLF AND BEYOND
>Starting first by reading ancient female writers...We will be thinking both about how ancient Greek writing, primarily but not only by female writers, affects how modern and contemporary works, from novels to plays to films, shape our view of the ancient world. All reading will be done in translation (by female translators, as much as possible); the act of translation itself will be a theme in the course.
>As we make our way through this history, the course will highlight questions of access to a “classical education”—as raised, e.g., by Virginia Woolf in A Room of One’s Own and in “On Not Knowing Greek”
>One important guiding figure throughout the course will be ancient lyric poet Sappho

[Anonymous No.23095009]

>>23094998
gay women are 90% of classics majors, why is this shocking to anyone?

[Anonymous No.23095010]

>>23094989
You're really bad at this, anon. We don't have a new/old world mentality because it's completely useless for us to have it. The "old world" is irrelevant. The world exists in our collective mind as America, Lesser America (Canada), Mexico (Latin America), Russia+Ukraine, China, and a cluster of nice vacation spots in northern Europe. England is probably the only other place on Earth we care about having a half-nuanced opinion about, but that opinion changes wildly with each generation. One generation hated England, another was in awe of them, yet another condescends to them, and now another just thinks about them as being our friends with funny accents.
>>23094992
Go ahead, list off all the wonderful books your country has written since WWII. The only area that even compares is Latin America, and that's only when you take it as singular entity.

[Anonymous No.23095012]

>>23094998

and the third new class below requires a "final report on a Latin etymology."

(CLG310) TOPICS IN GREEK LITERATURE: THE HESIODIC CATALOGUE OF WOMEN
>This course focuses on the Catalogue of Women, a fragmentary epic that was attributed to Hesiod. Students will need to read selections from other Greek and Roman literature in translation; and consider the reception of the Catalogue in the Hellenistic world as well as in Augustan Rome. We also look at the astonishing geographical and intertextual range of the Catalogue. Why does it take us on a spin around the edges of the world? What do we get to see along the way? And how does the Catalogue end up in Hades (Hom. Od. 11), where Odysseus encounters its protagonists and hears their familiar stories told in entirely new ways?

(CLA327) TOPICS IN ANCIENT HISTORY – AUGUSTUS: POLITICS, RELIGION, CULTURE
>This seminar will focus on the time-period from the assassination of Julius Caesar on the Ides of March 44 BC to the death of his adopted heir Augustus in AD 14, a period of about 60 years.

(LAT403) HISTORY OF THE LATIN LANGUAGE AND ITS EARLIEST LITERATURE
>This course introduces the historical and comparative grammar of Latin and offers an in-depth reading of the earliest-recorded Latin texts, literary and inscriptional. We will explore the linguistic prehistory of Latin, focusing on its position within the Italic languages. No prior knowledge of historical linguistics is assumed. This course will also involve readings in and the study of at least the following Italic languages: Oscan, Umbrian, Picene (and possibly others by request). We will then examine linguistic change and variation within Latin from the earliest documents down through Saturnian poetry and the earliest literary prose. The course will close with the use of archaisms in Imperial Latin authors. You will become familiar with historical grammar, will learn how to assess etymologies, and will gain an appreciation for a wide range of literary language from carmina to ritual texts in Umbrian and beyond. Readings will loosely follow the structure of The Blackwell History of the Latin Language (by Clackson and Horrocks) but we will draw on a broader range of secondary literature, including a book hot off the press, viz. Early Latin (ed. J. Adams et al.). Assignments will mainly be reading the texts and secondary literature (ca. 50 pages per week), as well as short oral reports on Italic inscriptions and a final report on a Latin etymology.

[Anonymous No.23095024]

>>23095010
post war brit lit is actually what i read most

[Anonymous No.23095025]

>>23093547
>To combat racism
Combat racism my ass. Blacks have no issues with language learning. This is just another step in their "dumb everyone down and amplify racial tensions" psyop. These academic and media institutions are so full of shit.

[Anonymous No.23095026]

You what’s really depressing? The only serious attempts to fix this don’t actually care about this at all. In Florida, you have New College, an attempt to only further politicize universities but for the MAGA people instead of the woke freaks. In Texas, you have the University of Austin, which is the pet project of Jordan Peterson’s friends who “believe in pursuit of truth” which is the platitudinal bullshit and really means “affirming 20th century American conservatism” until the end of time. Nobody actually cares about classical education, higher education, literature or any of that. The guy that’s running the latter is the former President of St. John’s, which is where they have that scammy great books program. The whole thing is depressing. I’d start a university myself if I was a billionaire and sincerely thought these currents could be resisted but they can’t.
t. Pessimistic academic administrator feeling more and more suffocated by the state of higher education everyday

[Anonymous No.23095029]

>>23095024
Yeah, they've got some pretty good books, I've gotta admit.

[Anonymous No.23095032]

>>23095029
well hell, aw shucks, really? heavens to betsy, you gotta be kidding, goshdarn it, the tarnation thing.

[Anonymous No.23095034]

>>23094977
This idea of the writer as key operative in national culture is a specifically European idea. The Austrians were the foremost proponents of it. Melville was also a proponent of this view but he was aping Europeans.

[Anonymous No.23095036]

>>23094956
Are you stupid? The articulation of the American constitution is almost the pre-eminent example of what he was saying.

[Anonymous No.23095037]

>>23095032
If you're trying to mock us, you should know that speaking like this only turns us on.

[Anonymous No.23095040]

>>23094925
“Nation of immigrants” is a party slogan to expand the franchise for their own benefit. Many people accept it because they have Irish or Italian or whatever ancestry, and those people did come here as immigrants, but they were merely immigrants assimilating to an already existing nation of colonists and settlers. This idea that the nation is the mass of people living on the land that can cast votes thus immigrants is merely a political scheme.

[Anonymous No.23095045]

>>23095026
How would you go about it? Any institution created would be a target for the mob, either to take it over for their own means or get it shut down.

[Anonymous No.23095047]

>>23094855
99% of students that go through a university never work at any university and don’t implement these policies. You’re just conflating the producer with the consumer of higher education. The majority of academics ended up as academics in part because they were allergic to capitalism and sought to critique it.

>>23094859
I hate this idea of the long march because it implies these people were already coordinated ideologues before they ever entered the institution, but the truth is that the institution is a sort of ideologue factory. Many people become academics because they dislike working life, and they only become critics of capitalism, etc. later. Many more simply adopt the progressive values of the institution as a way of advancing themselves socially and professionally. Data could never verify this, but the large majority of academics writing stupid woke shit in research journals today would’ve been writing eugenicist Nazi stuff in Germany had they been alive then. These people are to a huge degree just social climbers. They’re not ideologues, not political partisans. I mean, they are, but they are because it’s politically and professionally rewarding.

[Anonymous No.23095052]

So are niggers too dumb and stupid to learn the classics, or have the university faggots finally acknowledged ancient Greeks were white hyperboreans?

[Anonymous No.23095058]

>>23095045
I think any meaningful change would have to happen first at the political level, but there’s no real will for this sort of thing and there are just certain social forces out there in the world right now which make just bootstrapping a new university liable to fail. A classical education doesn’t really benefit anyone materially anymore. Nobody is really interested in one either. The liberal arts are largely just this sort of legacy curriculum that universities which sell professional degrees and research pay lip service to by requiring a certain amount of credits in them for degrees. And maybe more important, there’s too much money in them. The system needs to basically collapse before it can be reformed.

[Anonymous No.23095063]

>>23095034
every nation is entitled to a few sacred cows, but 'american literature' is no joke over there, no doubt it helps to boost morale on the home front. kingsley amis said once
>When The Naked and the Dead appeared, I thought someone the size of Dickens was among us; I had not allowed for the fact that Mailer was an American.

>>23095036
yes, it was something they sat down, debated, wrote down, and pinned on the classroom walls. things like king & country are just in your bones in britain (for better or worse).

[Anonymous No.23095066]

>>23095052
Most people who learn Greek and Latin learn it at their good, all white and Asian high schools. Black people don’t go to those schools so they come into university without knowing Greek or Latin, and if they learn, it takes years. No that they try learn it. The non-white students rarely take any interest at all in Classics. Academics have just convinced themselves that this is the result of systemic racism and not the fact that these people are just not interested.

[Anonymous No.23095067]

>>23095012

this is from Fall 2023 (September 19, 2023)

Prof. John W.I. Lee kicked off the Classics Department’s annual lecture series with “African Americans and Xenophon, c. 1800–1910.”

A noted historian of ancient West Asia and of early African American scholarship, Prof. Lee teaches at the University of California at Santa Barbara and is known for such works as The First Black Archaeologist: A Life of John Wesley Gilbert (Oxford, 2022)

Prof. Lee’s lecture argued that “although Xenophon gets less attention today than Herodotus and Thucydides, his work played a vital role in early African American education.” Analyzing the early curricula of Historically Black Colleges and Universities, he moreover found that Xenophon’s Anabasis was joined only by the Greek New Testament as the primary text for their courses in ancient Greek.

In presenting his research, Lee included case studies of several Black scholars of Xenophon throughout American history, from the Grimké brothers to W.E.B. Du Bois.

[Anonymous No.23095069]

>>23095034
every nation is entitled to a few sacred cows, but 'american literature' is no joke over there, no doubt it helps to boost morale on the home front. kingsley amis said once
>When The Naked and the Dead appeared, I thought someone the size of Dickens was among us; I had not allowed for the fact that Mailer was an American.

>>23095036
yes, it was something they sat down, debated, wrote down, and pinned on the classroom walls. things like king & country are just in your bones in england (for better or worse).

[Anonymous No.23095070]

>>23095063
What planet do you live on? This isn’t 1980. Almost nobody alive in America today cares about literature at all. It’s barely part of the K-12 curriculum anymore.

[Anonymous No.23095072]

>>23095070
people still consider moby dick the greatest novel ever written

[Anonymous No.23095074]

>>23095066
So they're basically trying to increase the nigger quota in classic degrees.

[Anonymous No.23095091]

>>23095074
This has nothing to do with blacks. The average African immigrant speaks three fucking languages. If you meet anyone here who doesn't speak English, they're far more likely to be Latinx. Most Americans natives are monolingual. These "FOR DIVERSITY" claims are just their "ethical" excuse to dumb everyone down.

[Anonymous No.23095093]

>>23095052
No, you fucking sheep. Double sheep fucking retard. Go back to /pol/ or your goon sesh on /gif/.

[Anonymous No.23095095]

>>23095067
>In presenting his research, Lee included case studies of several Black scholars of Xenophon throughout American history, from the Grimké brothers to W.E.B. Du Bois.

These included

John Chavis, a free Black educator, minister, and Revolutionary War veteran who studied Greek at Princeton in the 1790s;

Fanny Jackson Coppin, another educator and among the first Black alumnae of Oberlin College, who wrote in her memoirs of her joy teaching Xenophon;

William Sanders Scarborough, a president of Wilberforce University whose extremely popular First Lessons in Greek—likely the first textbook by an African American—was written specifically for the Anabasis
>Anabasis is the most famous work of Xenophon

wonder if there is a connection to
Xenophobia (from Ancient Greek: ξένος (xénos), "strange, foreign, or alien", and φόβος (phóbos), "fear") is the fear or dislike of anything which is perceived as being foreign or strange.

[Anonymous No.23095114]

>>23093583
Why does he speak like there's one big amorphous Mediterranean culture?

[Anonymous No.23095133]

>>23095114
Because there is?
Certainly all the Mediterranean countries all could be considered a sort of "Mediterranean culture" as they are all connected to the Mediterranean

[Anonymous No.23095134]

>>23095095

It highlights how African American intellectual leaders including Fanny Jackson Coppin, W.E.B. Du Bois, John Wesley Gilbert, and William Sanders Scarborough engaged with Xenophon’s works.

Overall, Lee’s story charted the course of Black education in America during the late nineteenth century, when African Americans’ studying of Greek was a deeply political act. In reading Xenophon, Lee argued, Black Americans were at once declaring their personhood, disproving racist beliefs regarding their intelligence, and asserting their belonging in a society where a classical education carried great prestige.

Lee concluded, it is important to recognize “Xenophon’s underappreciated but crucial role.”

[Anonymous No.23095136]

>>23095012
>nobody asks why we only have "fragments" of Greek and druidic literature, like human history was lost by a clerical error

WHAT IS "THIS IS A PRISON PLANET RUN BY THE DEVIL?"

[Anonymous No.23095138]

>>23095133
Yeah, like there's one big amorphous European culture and one big amorphous Asian culture, am I right.

[Anonymous No.23095143]

>>23093570
>/pol/ dogwhistle
>>>/pol/ leave and don't come back

[Anonymous No.23095144]

>>23095138
...yes.

[Anonymous No.23095145]

>>23095136
Sappho (Σαπφώ / Ψάπφω) the "Tenth Muse" and "The Poetess". Most of Sappho's poetry is now lost, and what is extant has mostly survived in fragmentary form; only the Ode to Aphrodite is certainly complete

[Anonymous No.23095146]

>>23095133
Yes, certainly. I myself often refer to Pacific culture as the common culture of China, Russia, the United States, Japan, and Australia.

[Anonymous No.23095148]

>>23095145

[Anonymous No.23095156]

>>23093570
>>23093945

The truth, yes

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/princeton-removes-greek-latin-requirement-for-classics-majors-to-combat-systemic-racism/

[Anonymous No.23095160]

>>23094865
The funny thing is indeed that we don‘t even learn about slavery and the holla cost. I didn‘t know basic facts about either until my 20‘s and had to go back and realize that they only instructed in cloying narratives sans information (one might say sans having to make serious claims.)

[Anonymous No.23095170]

>>23095067
>>23095095
>>23095134
Cool stuff. Thanks for sharing.

[Anonymous No.23095176]

>>23095134
It looks like Lee saw Xenophon on the curriculums, couldn't do anything with "because Xenophon's Greek was generally used for introducing the study of the Greek language because of his straightforward style", and invented a DEI approved conclusion. Dumb.

[Anonymous No.23095180]

>>23095160
You must not have gone to public school. 75% of my school's history curriculum was Civil War and WW2 (focused on Holocaust). The English curriculum was filled with BIPOC authors like Maya Angelou, Lorraine Hansberry, Edwidge Danticat, and other Oprah's Book Club tier literature

[Anonymous No.23095193]

>>23094875
>an immigrant country
fucking retard

[Anonymous No.23095198]

>>23095156
and Princeton's Dept of Classics still has classes where you must take Greek to take the classes. See
>>23094998

On another note, the menu for Princeton's Dept of Classic has this as the second item

Equity
The history of our own department bears witness to the place of Classics in the long arc of systemic racism. Our department is housed in a building named after Moses Taylor Pyne, the University benefactor whose family wealth was directly tied to the misery of enslaved laborers on Cuban sugar plantations. This same wealth underwrote the acquisition of the Roman inscriptions that the department owns and that are currently installed on the third floor of Firestone Library. Standing only a few meters from our offices and facing towards Firestone is a statue of John Witherspoon, the University’s slave-owning sixth president and a stalwart anti-abolitionist, leaning on a stack of books, one of which sports the name “Cicero.” So great a fan was Witherspoon of the Roman orator and politician that he named his nearby estate—where he regularly hosted George and Martha Washington after purchasing two enslaved people as farm-hands—Tusculum. This statue is no artifact of the distant past: it was erected in 2001.

Mindful of this history’s reverberations down to the contemporary moment, our efforts in the Classics Department have advanced and will continue to advance the following three objectives:

1) To protect students, staff, and faculty from discrimination

2) To create opportunities for the advancement of students and (future) colleagues from historically underrepresented backgrounds within the discipline .... To make the most of our increasingly diverse faculty and student body, by ensuring that a broad range of perspectives and experiences inform our study of the ancient Greek and Roman past.

3) To articulate a clear, forward-looking, and inclusive vision for our field. Once devoted to the appreciation of Greece and Rome as exemplary cultures (often seen in what was perceived to be their “splendid isolation”), classicists now study a broad range of synchronic and diachronic relationships and pay close attention to exclusions. In terms of synchronic relationships, we investigate, for example, how ideas and forms of expressions circulated between Greece, Egypt, and the Near East; to what extent the Romans and their North African enemies shared the same cultural models; how ancient people related to the natural and built environment; and how the beginnings of literature compare across the world.
...
we investigate, using a variety of theoretical frameworks, how classical texts have been transmitted and received in later cultures. We specifically consider how the cultures of Greece and Rome have been instrumentalized, and have been complicit, in various forms of exclusion, including slavery, segregation, white supremacy, Manifest Destiny, and cultural genocide.

[Anonymous No.23095209]

>>23095180
I did and that‘s what I‘m saying. The curriculum was stuffed with slavery/holocaust-themed material, but no hard facts on either which might even constitute an historical understanding.

[Anonymous No.23095211]

>>23094575
Academic suicide?
It's bigger than that, it's civilizational if you look at what's going on right now.

[Anonymous No.23095289]

>>23095198
and with #3 they conclude "starting with our new gateway course What is a Classic?"

>>23094939

From their 2023 - 2024 Undergraduate Announcement

The department (of Classics) offers two rigorous and highly flexible majors tracks, in which students chart their own paths, in which students chart their own paths within broad areas of study and are encouraged to develop innovative research projects

Prerequisites
One course on classical culture, broadly defined: any departmental course, HUM 216–217, HUM 247 or other course approved by the DUS.

Program of Study

Program 1. Classical Studies
>offers students maximum flexibility to chart their course through departmental and related offerings. The particular program for each student is determined in collaboration with the DUS, and should be coherent and lead to viable research projects. Whatever the individual focus, each student’s program must contain eight courses at the 200 level or above (with limited exceptions as described below), including two at the 300 level, plus the junior seminar. Five of the eight courses counted toward requirements must be taught by Department of Classics faculty (in general, these courses will have CLA, CLG or LAT as the first course code listing; the DUS can approve exceptions for courses taught by affiliated faculty). Three elective courses may be counted toward the major that are either cross-listed by classics or approved by the DUS as relevant to the student’s program of study.

Of the eight courses, one must deal primarily with ancient literature, whether read in the original or in translation; the sequence of CLG/LAT 105-108 may be counted as a single departmental course and used to fulfill this requirement. One course must deal primarily with ancient history; this requirement may be fulfilled by taking any of CLA 216-219 (the Greek and Roman history surveys) or an approved alternative. One course must deal substantially with classical reception or comparative approaches to the ancient world; this requirement may also be fulfilled by study of another language relevant to the student’s interests (Akkadian, Modern Greek, etc., at any course level). Students are otherwise free, in consultation with the DUS, to chart their own path through the department’s offerings.

....

[Anonymous No.23095309]

>>23095289

Program 2. Ancient History

Although students may specialize in a particular field of history (political, social, economic, cultural), geographic area or historical period of antiquity, the aim of the program is to provide well-rounded training in the field of history, with a focus on ancient history. Each student’s program must contain eight courses at the 200 level or above (with limited exceptions as described below), including two at the 300 level, plus the junior seminar.

The eight courses taken toward the ancient history track must include one survey course on ancient Greek history (CLA 216 or 217) and one survey course on Roman history (CLA 218 or 219); one course substantially dealing with ancient material culture; and one course on premodern (i.e., pre-1789) history or non-industrial societies beyond Greece and Rome. ... The remaining elective courses should follow a coherent plan that prepares the student for independent research; ordinarily, any course listed as CLA, CLG or LAT at the 200 level or above will count, and other courses may be approved by the DUS for credit toward the major. One of the courses may be fulfilled by the sequence of CLG/LAT 105–108 or study of another language relevant to the student’s interests at any level.

Independent Work
During the fall of junior year, all majors take the junior seminar (CLA 340).
> Students who are abroad during the fall of their junior year may complete the junior seminar during the fall semester of their senior year.
The course introduces students to different fields of study within the department, including literature, ancient history, ancient culture, linguistics and reception studies. Students will gain experience in the methods of their chosen area(s) of study while acquiring an understanding of the history of the discipline and its place in the 21st century.

Junior Independent Work
In the fall term, each student researches and writes a paper of 12–15 pages on a topic of their choosing under the direction of a faculty adviser.
In the spring term, students undertake a more ambitious research paper of 20–25 pages. Each student again works closely with a member of the faculty on the project, meeting regularly over the course of the term.

Senior Independent Work.
At the end of junior year, majors propose a provisional thesis topic to the DUS along with a list of potential faculty advisers, on the basis of which they are assigned a thesis adviser. The thesis in its final form shall be submitted to the DUS by April 15 (or, when this falls on a weekend, on the following Monday) of senior year.

Senior Departmental Examination
A 30-minute oral examination focusing on the thesis and related research is administered during the Senior Comprehensive Examination Period by a committee consisting of the thesis adviser, thesis second reader and DUS.

[Anonymous No.23095314]

>>23095309

Certificate in Language and Culture
Students in the Classes of 2024, 2025 and 2026 who are pursuing a major other than classics may still demonstrate command of one of the classical languages and cultures by working toward a certificate in Greek or Roman language and culture.

The requirements are:

Three CLG or three LAT courses, one of which may be at the 200 level while the others must be at the 300 level.

A piece of independent work. This can be satisfied in several ways: (a) by a substantial paper developed from one of the courses taken to fulfill the certificate requirement (this will be in addition to the work required in the course); (b) by a substantial independent paper advised by a member of the classics faculty; or (c) with the agreement of the home department and classics DUS, by a piece of independent work that satisfies the requirements of both classics and the home department. As a substitute for this requirement, students may take either an additional course in their language (CLG or LAT) at the 200- or 300 level, or a CLA course focusing on the culture of their certificate program (Greek or Roman).

[Anonymous No.23095329]

>>23095314

Courses

CLA 202 - The World of Late Antiquity
CLA 205 - Introduction to Ancient Greek and Roman Philosophy

CLA 208 - Origins and Nature of English Vocabulary
The origins and nature of English vocabulary, from proto-Indo-European prehistory to current slang. Emphasis on the Greek and Latin component of English vocabulary

CLA 211 - Rhetoric: Classical Theory, Modern Practice
the art of persuasion will be the focus of this course. We will first approach rhetoric through the classical tradition

CLA 212 - Classical Mythology

CLA 213 - The Formation of Christian Art

CLA 214 - The Other Side of Rome
An introduction to Roman culture emphasizing tensions within Roman imperial ideology, the course explores attitudes toward issues such as gender and sexuality, conspicuous consumption, and ethnicity through the works of authors such as Petronius, Lucan, and Tacitus. It also considers the role of cinematic representations of ancient Rome in 20th-century America.

CLA 216 - Archaic and Classical Greece
the Greeks from the rise of the city-state, through the conflict between Athens and Sparta, to the emergence of Macedon in the fourth century B.C. Emphasis on cultural history, political thought, and the development of techniques of historical interpretation through analysis of original sources (Herodotus, Thucydides, and others). Two lectures, one preceptorial. M. Domingo Gygax

CLA 217 - The Greek World in the Hellenistic Age
The Greek experience from Alexander the Great through Cleopatra. An exploration of the dramatic expansion of the Greek world into the Near East brought about by the conquests and achievements of Alexander. Study of the profound political, social, and intellectual changes that stemmed from the interaction of the cultures, and the entrance of Greece into the sphere of Rome. Readings include history, biography, religious narrative, comedy, and epic poetry.

[Anonymous No.23095342]

>>23095329

CLA 218 - The Roman Republic
A study of the causes and consequences of one small city-state's rise to world-empire, primarily through the analysis of ancient sources (including Livy, Polybius, Caesar, and Cicero) in translation

CLA 219 - The Roman Empire, 31 B.C. to A.D. 337
A study of the profound transformation of Rome by the multicultural empire it had conquered, ending with the triumph of Christianity. Ancient sources in translation include documents, histories, letters, and novels.

CLA 223 - Hellenism: The First 3000 Years

CLA 231 - Ancient Greek and Roman Medicine
we will go back to the earliest medical texts written in ancient Greece

CLA 252 - Jesus: How Christianity Began

[Anonymous No.23095357]

I wonder how Jonathan Edwards feels about this.

[Anonymous No.23095364]

But how is classics not racist ethnocentrism?

[Anonymous No.23095374]

>>23095342

CLA 301 - Political Theory, Athens to Augustine

CLA 302 - The Art of the Iron Age: The Near East and Early Greece

CLA 303 - Aristotle and His Successors

CLA 306 - Classical Athens: Art and Institutions

CLA 320 - Topics in Medieval Greek Literature
medieval Greek Romantic fiction. We will read translations of the four surviving novels written in twelfth-century Constantinople and what role, if any, did the medieval or Byzantine Romances have in the story of the European novel. Above all, we will seek to recover some of the pleasure felt by the medieval readers and audiences of these novels.

CLA 323 - Self and Society in Classical Greek Drama
Designed to give students who are without knowledge of the Greek language the opportunity to read widely and deeply in the field of Greek drama, with particular emphasis on an intensive study of Greek tragedy, its origins and development, staging, structure, and meanings

CLA 324 - Classical Historians and Their Philosophies of History
Major classical historians, especially Herodotus and Thucydides, are studied in connection with the theory and practice of the art or science of history.

CLA 325 - Roman Law
The historical development of Roman law and its influence on modern legal systems.

CLA 326 and CLA 327 - Topics in Ancient History
The topic and instructor vary from year to year.

CLA 329 - Sex and Gender in the Ancient World
bases of the Western attitudes toward sex and gender categories in their formative period in the Greco-Roman world through the study of mythology, archaeology, art, literature, philosophy, science, medicine, law, economics, and historiography.

CLA 330 - Greek Law
The development of Greek legal traditions, from Homer to the Hellenistic age and the development of legal theory

CLA 334 - Modern Transformations of Classical Themes
A special topic concerning the adaptation of one or more classical themes in contemporary culture

CLA 335 - Studies in the Classical Tradition
A classical genre or literary theme will be studied as it was handed down and transformed in later ages, for example, the European epic; ancient prose fiction and the picaresque tradition; the didactic poem

CLA 338 - Topics in Classical Thought
Dreams. Although our focus will be on Greek and Roman texts, we will also pay attention to earlier Near Eastern sources as well as modern dream theories from Freud to scientific dream research

CLA 340 - Junior Seminar: Introduction to Classics
Particular attention will be paid to acquiring the skills necessary to pursue independent research and the selection of a topic for the spring Junior Paper. D. Mairhofer

CLA 343 - The Formation of the Christian West

CLA 344 - The Civilization of the High Middle Ages

[Anonymous No.23095409]

>>23095374

CLA 352 - God, Satan, Goddesses, and Monsters: How Their Stories Play in Art, Culture, and Politics

CLA 405 - Akkadian
an introduction to Akkadian, the language of ancient Babylon. The first half of the course introduces students to the basic concepts of Akkadian (old Babylonian) grammar and the cuneiform script. In the second half students consolidate their knowledge of the language by reading selections from classic Babylonian texts, such as the famous law code of King Hammurabi and the Epic of Gilgamesh. J. Haubold

CLA 470 - Interdisciplinary Studies in the Humanities

CLG 101 and CLG 102 Beginner's Ancient Greek
classical vocabulary and grammar during the first term as a base for the student in the continuing course

CLG 103 - Ancient Greek: An Intensive Introduction
An intensive introduction to the essentials of Greek grammar. Students will begin reading Attic prose as quickly as possible. 103 covers the material of 101-102 in a shorter period through increased class-time, drills, and earlier exposure to actual Greek texts.

CLG 105 - Socrates
Prerequisite: 102 or 103
The life and teaching of Socrates based upon the evidence of Plato and Xenophon. Also Aristophanes's Clouds

CLG 108 - Homer
Prerequisite: 103
extensive reading of the Homeric epics

CLG 213 - Tragic Drama
Normally one tragedy each by Euripides and Sophocles is read in Greek, with other texts and critical work in English.

CLG 214 - Greek Prose Authors
Prerequisite: Greek 108
Deals with a major topic in Greek literature or cultural history with readings from several of the most important Greek authors.

CLG 240 - Introduction to Post-Classical Greek from the Late Antique to the Byzantine Era
texts with a range from the Hellenistic to the Byzantine periods

CLG 301 - Plato
Reading of selected dialogues

CLG 302 - Greek Tragedy
Three tragedies are read in class; others (both in Greek and English) are assigned as outside reading. Includes Aristotle's Poetics.

CLG 304 - Greek Historians
Intensive study of a major historical author, such as Herodotus or Thucydides

CLG 305 - Greek Comedy
Several plays of Aristophanes are read in the original (for example, Acharnians, Clouds) and others in translation. Includes the connections of Old Comedy with Euripidean tragedy, contemporary politics, and philosophy. Consideration is also given to New Comedy, with selections from Menander's Dyskolos in Greek.

[Anonymous No.23095410]

There was once a very rigorous Great Books program. I think in the 1970s.
It was cancelled because some of the students converted to Catholicism and this freaked out the liberal admins of the university.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_Humanities_Program

If they ended up becoming communist terrorists or radical atheists, I suppose the admins would be OK with this.

[Anonymous No.23095413]

>>23093547
the end game is all about lowering everyone's IQ

[Anonymous No.23095426]

>>23095410
Fucking hell, man... Look at Don Quijote there. Imagine what could've been.

[Anonymous No.23095480]

>>23095409

CLG 306 - Greek Rhetoric
major techniques of Greek rhetoric with special attention to rhetorical treatises such as Aristotle's Rhetoric

CLG 307 - Homer and the Epic Tradition
Emphasis is upon literary interpretation of the epic on the basis of detailed analysis of epic style, diction, and narrative techniques.

CLG 308 - The Lyric Age of Greece
Major texts of the Greek lyric age in their cultural and literary setting. An author such as Hesiod or Pindar may be selected for intensive treatment

CLG 310 - Topics in Greek Literature
vary from year to year depending on the interests of the instructor and students

LAT 101 and LAT 102 Reading in basic prose fo
for 102, works by authors such as Cicero or Caesar completes the course. - Beginner's Latin

LAT 103 - Latin: An Intensive Introduction
covers the material of 101-102 in a shorter time through increased class time and drills.

LAT 104 - Intensive Intermediate Latin
An alternative to Latin 105, offering more review of Latin grammar and syntax. Also designed as an introduction to Latin literature through selected readings in poetry and prose

LAT 105 - Intermediate Latin: Catullus and His
Prerequisite: 102
Selections from the poems of Catullus and from Cicero's Pro Caelio form the core of the reading. 105 is a continuation of 102 and is designed as an introduction to Latin literature

LAT 108 - Constructing Imperial Identities in Prose and Verse
Prerequisite: 104, 105
the early books of Livy's History of Rome, together with selections from Vergil's Aeneid (such as Book 4 or 8). The course introduces the student to two major works of the Augustan Age and gives advanced instruction in the Latin language.

LAT 203 - Introduction to Augustan Literature
Prerequisite: 108
Readings from Ovid, particularly his love poetry and his "epic,'' the Metamorphoses, as well as from other poets (such as Horace, Tibullus, and Propertius)

LAT 204 - Readings in Latin Literature
Prerequisite: 108
with readings from three or four of the most important Latin authors.

LAT 205 - Roman Letters
A careful reading of a selection of Latin letters in prose and verse by Cicero, Horace, Ovid, Pliny, and others

LAT 210 - Invective, Slander, and Insult in Latin
Prerequisite: LAT 108
This course aims to build skills in reading literary Latin in a variety of genres, both poetry and prose

LAT 232 - Introduction to Medieval Latin
Prerequisite: 108
Readings will include a wide variety of prose and poetry from the fourth to the 14th centuries.

[Anonymous No.23095502]

>>23095480

LAT 234 - Latin Language and Stylistics
Syntactic and stylistic analysis of sections of such authors as Cicero, Sallust, Seneca. Translations of brief portions of major authors

LAT 330 - Cicero
will normally include extensive reading from at least two of the three main genres of Cicero's prose works: essays, letters, and orations

LAT 331 - Horace
Selected Odes, Epodes, Satires, and Epistles are read with emphasis on Horace's relation to Greek poetry, his poetic techniques and originality, his ethical and literary views, his portrayal of the life and culture of Augustan Rome, and his influence upon English poetry.

LAT 332 - Roman Drama
The course will concentrate on a single author (for example, Plautus) or will survey the development and technique of the drama in Rome, with major emphasis on comedy.

LAT 333 - Vergil's Aeneid
An intensive study of the Aeneid,

LAT 334 - Vergil's Eclogues and Georgics
Critical reading and literary analysis of Vergil's cycle of 10 pastoral poems (Eclogues) and of the four books of Georgics.

LAT 335 - Roman Literature: Selected Author or Authors
will vary from year to year, depending on the interests of the instructor and students.

LAT 336 - Epicureanism and Stoicism
A study of the two main philosophical schools of the Republic and Early Empire: Epicureanism and Stoicism. Readings (in Latin) will be selected from Lucretius, Cicero, and Seneca, supplemented by selections from Greek sources in English translation.

LAT 337 - Roman Republican Historians
Livy, Sallust, and Caesar, depending on the interests of the instructor and students.

LAT 338 - Latin Prose Fiction
A critical study of Latin fiction such as Petronius's Satyricon and Apuleius's Metamorphoses (Golden Ass).

LAT 339 - Roman Historians of the Empire
include Tacitus, Suetonius, and Velleius Paterculus

LAT 340 - Roman Satire
Selected satires of Horace, Juvenal, and Persius

LAT 342 - Roman Elegy from Catullus to Ovid
Students will read the fourth book of Propertius and sections of Ovid's Fasti, together with other elegies.

MOG 101 and MOG 102 - Elementary Modern Greek I
MOG 105 - Intermediate Modern Greek
MOG 107 - Advanced Modern Greek

[Anonymous No.23095507]

>>23095502
So how is this not ethnocentrism again?

[Anonymous No.23095540]

>>23095507
No idea lol
Seems pretty ethnocentric to me

[Anonymous No.23095768]

>>23094264
I genuinely wonder what a non meme chart would look like for America
Most everything would probably wind up being pre 1960

[Anonymous No.23095776]

>>23094264
Art of the Deal is unironically a good book.

[Anonymous No.23095811]

>>23095768
it doesn't bear thinking about

[Anonymous No.23095860]

>>23095768

[Anonymous No.23095870]

>>23094982
I'm the guy you responded to and I'm American. I have no idea where you pulled out that stuff from. New world old world is just easy.

[Anonymous No.23095872]

>>23095860
>no Lovecraft
booooo

[Anonymous No.23095882]

>>23095870
>I have no idea where you pulled out that stuff from
Try again.

[Anonymous No.23095904]

im 30 is it too late to go for a phd in classics? i dont have a bachelors.
i just want to do something cool with my life. i want to spend time translating shit thats never been translated

[Anonymous No.23095909]

>>23095882
Try what again

[Anonymous No.23095932]

>>23093547
Lol OP who assumes that university education is where it happens

The emergence of great writing had never had anything to do with universities

[Anonymous No.23095979]

>>23095860
>literature
Now just need an overview history book, historians, maybe some poets/drama and a meme philosopher or two and it's in the bag

[Anonymous No.23095981]

>>23095426
Does anyone know which building this is?

[Anonymous No.23096008]

>>23095904
I can tell by your posts that you lack the discipline it takes. Wake up early, go for a run. Do this for a week. If you can do that much then you can buy the books and gain reading literacy, which is all you need.

[Anonymous No.23096022]

>far right news source
fuck off /pol/

[Anonymous No.23096095]

>>23093768
You learn Greek so you can recognize that people like Emily Wilson are lying to you when they tell you that Odysseus is gay and NSDAP

[Anonymous No.23096096]

>>23095979
I guess I'll have to make my own sometime.
>>Overview
I have no idea.
>>Historians
John Fiske
Douglas Southall Freeman
Edward A. Pollard
Shelby Foote
Francis Parkman
Frederick Jackson Turner
James Ford Rhodes
Allan Nevins
Bruce Catton
Will Durant
>>Philosophers
Thomas Jefferson
Samuel Johnson
Jonathan Edwards
William James
John Dewey
Charles Sanders Peirce
Ralph Waldo Emerson
>>Poets
Anne Bradstreet
Edward Taylor
Philip Freneau
Joel Barlow
Edgar Allan Poe
James Russell Lowell
Herman Melville
Walt Whitman
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
John Neihardt
T.S. Eliot
Ezra Pound
William Carlos Williams
Hart Crane
Carl Sandburg
Charles Olson
Frank Stanford
James Merrill
Michael Lind
Robert Frost
Robinson Jeffers
Sylvia Plath
Emily Dickinson
Alan Dugan
>>Playwrights
John Augustus Stone
Arthur Miller
Thornton Wilder
Eugene O'Neill
Tennessee Williams

[Anonymous No.23096199]

>>23093768
This is a sign of declining intellectual standards.
In my country, one of the publishers of Madame Bovary basically had in their summary that Emma was more or less a feminist role model.

Can someone who thinks like this function as a gatekeeper?

[Anonymous No.23096231]

>>23094868
I really do not understand this move. They claim they haven't altered the courses on offer, but if that's true they're simply setting up a bunch of students to waste their money and the professor's time by enrolling in a class they are not prepared for and will inevitably fail. So probably what's going to happen is this:

>entry level courses for the department are dumbed down and now only use translated texts
>courses that require Latin / Greek are now upper division electives
>Classics majors can now claim to have studied the classics without ever learning Greek or Latin or reading any of them in their original language
>this sufficiently lowers the bar for "people of color" who can barely even speak English, let alone a dead language

[Anonymous No.23096263]

>>23095860
Not a single thing by Twain. Disappointing.

[Anonymous No.23096353]

>>23096263
...

[Anonymous No.23096388]

>>23093886
>That was when i realized Classics was a dead field in academia and the only way forward was self-study.

[Anonymous No.23096426]

>>23094998
>All reading will be done in translation (by female translators, as much as possible)

>get accepted into ivy league school
>enroll in classics course
>prepare to devote life to studying the foundational texts of Western culture
>open assigned textbook and begin reading
>"Tell me about a complicated man."

[Anonymous No.23096433]

>>23093583
>VGH MY MEDITERRANEAN BRVTHERS!

[Anonymous No.23096438]

>>23094925
>nation of immigrants
Jewish psyop

[Anonymous No.23096463]

>>23094977
People like you need to be fed into a wood chipper

[Anonymous No.23096484]

>>23094931
it's no frasier that's for sure

[Anonymous No.23096508]

>>23096484
Did Frasier and Niles speak ancient Greek and Latin?

[Anonymous No.23096559]

>>23096463
share location big man, i'll come to your yard

[Anonymous No.23096566]

>>23093768
This but unironically. All the greats from that time and long before have drawn indispensable inspiration from the ancients.

Even prior to the bulk of its rediscovery Petrarch reenergized the concept of poetic language from traces out of archives. Shakespeare famously had small amounts of both and spun from it an unparalleled portraiture of the human experience. The cosmic scale of antiquity and its thirst for life and knowledge drove Goethe. Byron ushered an apex of emotion and a century of adventure in the arts from his taste for classical philhellenism. Joyce began anew the search for psychological comprehension and linguistic expression from such fundamental, powerful forms. It‘s a really big deal for the culture at large that its old guard is deliberately making decisions that will edge out this process continuing into a new century.

Unless one of us is going to do it.

[Anonymous No.23096606]

>>23096508
There's a direct translation joke by Niles in Latin but I think it's the furthest it went.

[Anonymous No.23096636]

>>23096566
>Shakespeare famously had small amounts of both
the quote he's referring to is jonson speaking about will's 'small latin and less greek', which is a quote meant to work against that argument.
>spun from it
from antiquity in particular? i'd like to see an otherwise reasonable person defend this in their own words
he utterly disregarded the classical unities, in sharp contrast to his contemporaries.

[Anonymous No.23096666]

>>23096636
He used Plutarch for his Greek and Roman plays, Golding's Ovid has marks on plays like the Tempest, and Greek and Roman rhetorical figures are all over the place in his verses.

[Anonymous No.23096687]

>>23096666
a translation of plutarch, it might be worth adding.
he also used holinshed, should everyone be reading him at school?

[Anonymous No.23096693]

h..how do they start with the greeks then?

[Anonymous No.23096714]

>>23096687
>a translation of plutarch, it might be worth adding.
I'm not the anon at >>23096566, but *his* point which I was buttressing at >>23096666 was that reading the classics reinvigorated the modern literary arts. I don't misunderstand you, you're arguing about whether someone needs to know Greek or Latin, while the other anon and I are talking about being steeped in the classics at all; we're not arguing over the same matter so I'll concede that.

>he also used holinshed, should everyone be reading him at school?
I don't see why not, i'm not jumping in excitement over what everyone's taught and reading for the most part anyway.

[Anonymous No.23096745]

>>23096714
do you have fond memories of being taught shakespeare? shakespeare might not be surprised to know that his plays are still bringing money to producers throughout the world. he would be greatly surprised, however, to know that they are studied (by compulsion) in the classroom; they are conned by scholars, dissected by pedants, and fed in synthetic and quite distasteful doses to students.

robert graves, for instance, said homer needs to be freed of the classroom curse. if you read the works of some of these older writers, rather than they're early life & education section on wikipedia, you might see what some had to say on all this latin & greek.

[Anonymous No.23096758]

>>23096714
do you have fond memories of being taught shakespeare? shakespeare might not be surprised to know that his plays are still bringing money to producers throughout the world. he would be greatly surprised, however, to know that they are studied (by compulsion) in the classroom; they are conned by scholars, dissected by pedants, and fed in synthetic and quite distasteful doses to students.

i'm not talking about languages in particular. robert graves, for instance, said homer needs to be freed of the classroom curse. if you read the works of some of these older writers, rather than they're early life & education section on wikipedia, you might see what some had to say on all this latin & greek.

[Anonymous No.23097058]

>>23096096
Would actually be a decent chart if done right

[Anonymous No.23097072]

>>23096566
Shakespeare read translations. It’s high time /lit/ admits there is nothing wrong with reading translations

[Anonymous No.23097089]

>>23097072
Shakespeare read GOOD translations. That's the important part. People here will froth at the mouth at people like Emily Wilson and Headley — and rightfully so — but then scoff at Pope, Chapman, Sandys, &c. for their "inaccurate" translations, when those are the translations that inspired their favorite authors.

[Anonymous No.23097113]

>>23097089
>people here...scoff at pope,chapman,sandys...
No. Pope's translation is basically required reading on this board. Where the hell are you from? It is not /lit/ thats for sure.

[Anonymous No.23097123]

I hear medieval studies is even worse off and that all the funding and attention is going to "race before race" studies, whatever the hell that means. I heard from a guy that there's a quiet revolution going on in the field as the few remaining professors who don't like this shit jump ship, so really it's more like a quiet implosion.

I remember this Youtube channel, Medieval and Ancient World something or other, started doing woke videos with this fat cunt named Ruto (?), and they got overwhelmingly negative comments and dislikes, so what did they do? Make 50 more videos and tell everybody to piss off. It's funny because Black Athena type shit used to be a joke.

I think millennials are just subhuman status climbers and jobbers and arguably the worst generation in human history. The boomers were just generically blind and selfish but genX/millennials are like some kind of deliberately evil di-generation that set out to turn absolutely everything into its gayest, ugliest form possible.

[Anonymous No.23097128]

>>23094903
Yeah this is just white guilt broads and minority self-loathing (because they have no identity and are adrift in white countries) broads in the upper class being given fake jobs because not even our fake-ass economic and societal structure can find something for them to do.

>Totally useless whiner and childless bitter old bag? Here, ruin literature for a few decades.
They will not stop until the entire universe is one big Zoom call.

[Anonymous No.23097130]

>>23097089
>>23097113
I want to read a new translation of the iliad/Odyssey.
I read Fagles and wanna read something older.

Is pope or chapman the way to go

[Anonymous No.23097133]

>>23097123
God damn it I wish I could just be an academic. I got in, saw what was going on. Got out early with a consolation prize STEM degree. But I don't really feel happy. The most fun I had was discussing shit with my mathematics and classics professors in a tiny group of students after hours.

[Anonymous No.23097143]

>>23097089
why is that the important part? you didn't really elaborate on that point.
and pope? he turned it into an english 18th century poem full of 18th century ideas of decency and proper behaviour and cutting out some of the more unpleasant things.

[Anonymous No.23097148]

>>23096231
You just take easy classes that don't require Latin or Greek. The major is mostly just a vanity degree before you move onto law school or finance, since this is Princeton you don't need anything more than your pedigree and a pulse.

[Anonymous No.23097154]

>>23096433
You're probably an Albanian subhuman. Levant chads are more med.

[Anonymous No.23097160]

>>23094623
They're good Boomer liberals who don't want to be seen as racist or sexist, thus, no pushback.

[Anonymous No.23097180]

>>23096636
It doesn‘t work against it to say that supplementing his translated knowledge was even a basic steeping in the original text.

[Anonymous No.23097183]

>>23097089
There are still good translations put out. A lot of those great old translations like North, Chapman, Florio, Salel, Douglas, Golding, and company, took massive liberties with the original material. How does one judge a good translation- accuracy, poetically, or a mix? It differs. I have the feeling you like the more poetic translations; well, the 20th century had many great poets themselves make translations of others work. In hundreds of years there will be translations from our era that will be seen as high points in translating. The autism about translations on this board is funny. Niggas be spending more time researching translations than actually reading; if they actually read they could have read multiple ones already, maybe even learned some of the language. If a book sucks in translation then it is probably not good in the original language either

[Anonymous No.23097190]

>>23097113
>Where the hell are you from? It is not /lit/ thats for sure.
I could say the same to you, unless things have changed over the years. It is (or was) a given that you'd get at least a couple people quoting Richard Bentley's letter to Pope and using it to posture. Pope was a laughing-stock here, and unfortunately enough people bought into the meme and wrote him off completely without ever reading his translations, let alone his original poetry.
>>23097143
They were beautiful, and beauty is what matters most. They weren't reading dry, overly academic garbage or glorified "Iliad for Dummies" translations. They were reading translations that fully intended to communicate the themes of their stories in English. None of those authors would've been inspired by Lattimore, and of course John Keats would never have written a poem dedicated to Fagles like he did for Chapman.
>Much have I travell'd in the realms of gold,
>And many goodly states and kingdoms seen;
>Round many western islands have I been
>Which bards in fealty to Apollo hold.
>Oft of one wide expanse had I been told
>That deep-brow'd Homer ruled as his demesne;
>Yet did I never breathe its pure serene
>Till I heard Chapman speak out loud and bold:
>Then felt I like some watcher of the skies
>When a new planet swims into his ken;
>Or like stout Cortez when with eagle eyes
>He star'd at the Pacific—and all his men
>Look'd at each other with a wild surmise—
>Silent, upon a peak in Darien.

[Anonymous No.23097216]

>>23097190
yes everyone's seen the chapman sonnet. as it happens i don't rate lattimore, but something along the lines of an 'iliad for dummies' would make a more favourable translation.

the iliad isn't beautiful, it's exciting and huge and terrible. homer's style is his proper semi-barbaric flavour, and not (i should add) pope’s elegant couplets, nor the flowery tropes of the elizabethan translators, nor slabs of victorian neo-gothic.

[Anonymous No.23097263]

Classics is basically non-existent in my country, if there were any language requirements they probably just wouldn't teach it at all. My university is the only one in my part of the country which teaches it and it's very small. For languages there is only an introduction to Latin and the courses mainly focus on Rome. I haven't really seen any QUEERING THE (xyz)'s in my course any anything related, there was a focus on like 2 women in the introduction to Classical literature but each topic covers a week each so hardly a lot.

[Anonymous No.23097524]

>>23095410
What a shame and embarrassment. Not that those involved in destroying such an endeavor feel either of them.
This link gives a particularly interesting rundown.
https://crisismagazine.com/vault/what-price-truth-death-by-administration
My spidey senses tingled first from your post, then from the wiki, and then confirmation
>the ACLU and JCRB (Jewish Community Relations Bureau)
Pure Coincidence

[Anonymous No.23097613]

>>23094977
A true American feels the infinite frontier in his heart. It's not merely theoretical. There's really not many true Americans left, unfortunately.

[Anonymous No.23097646]

>>23097613
This. James Polk was the last American president.

[Anonymous No.23097652]

>>23095211
I'd call it commie subterfuge. They're doing more than fine lately. Colonising Africa, new silk road, snapdragon, navy...

[Anonymous No.23097662]

>>23097613
there is no frontier

[Anonymous No.23097702]

>>23097662
There will always be a frontier so long as the United States controls anything less than entire world.
>The far-reaching, the boundless future, will be the era of American greatness. In its magnificent domain of space and time, the nation of many nations is destined to manifest to mankind the excellence of divine principles; to establish on earth the noblest temple ever dedicated to the worship of the Most High, the Sacred, and the True. Its floor shall be a hemisphere, roof the firmament of the star-studded heavens, and its congregation of Union of many Republics, comprising hundreds of happy millions, calling no man master, but governed by God's natural and moral law of equality, the law of brotherhood-of "peace and good will amongst men."

[Anonymous No.23097707]

>>23097702
creepy

[Anonymous No.23097710]

>>23097702
So where do I go

[Anonymous No.23097756]

>>23093658
This is probably the first step in them moving away from greek and latin classics either in part, or all together.

[Anonymous No.23097786]

>>23095507
It's a field of study and not claiming to be all of knowledge. Do you propose not studying any given culture's body of literature at all?

[Anonymous No.23097831]

>>23093547
Italians and Greeks went from being "inverted blacks" to a symbol of White Oppression. What is even "white culture" to liberals? In the 1950s, Greeks couldn't live in white neighborhoods, now Greek literature is being kicked out of (one) school.

[Anonymous No.23097863]

>>23097613
the wandering jew?...

orson welles said something good about the infinite frontier, this was re people who are in LA doing yoga feeling like they're part of 'the search' (he said it in the 80s)
>The search, the terrible search. This great search is mainly being conducted on the West Coast. And it is because people, pioneers, have been fighting their way to get here for one hundred and fifty years. Finally they’re here, and there’s nothing here.

[Anonymous No.23097900]

>>23093547
you think that's bad? my alma mater's classics program was just one old guy, and when he passed they just said fuck it, no more classics
then they hired a visiting professor and reinstated the program a few years later with just him, only he teaches introductory Latin and Greek and very little else

[Anonymous No.23097932]

>>23097831
>What is even "white culture" to liberals?
Everything good, true and beautiful. Why they are hellbent on destroying it is still perplexing

[Anonymous No.23097946]

>>23097932
I think they are conditioned to believe it is "lame." If you look at something like the Odyssey and think "boring old white man gets lost" you are probably the kind of person who hates realistic art and cuisine because it makes you feel disconnected from your normal life of junk food and pot. People are very attached to their cartoons and the chaos of failure.

Now, the reason they are conditioned this way is to take dignity and intelligence away from the population, but we both know this. It's just confusing how this message lands or appeals to people.

[Anonymous No.23097965]

>>23097946
>realistic art and cuisine
awful how homer is always tied in with this snobbish crowd.

[Anonymous No.23098000]

>>23097965
>I like goyslop and geometric art
get help, also most 5-star chefs are actually pretty working class not at all pretentious unlike 4chan posters

[Anonymous No.23098033]

>>23098000
alright marco. but homer wasn't high-brow at all & wrote ('wrote') with a dominant entertainment motive.

[Anonymous No.23098063]

>>23095026
Why is St. John's a scam?

[Anonymous No.23098309]

>>23093547
Yes it was a stupid decision but it has nothing to do with the state of literature today. Sucks for Princeton. That's about it.

[Anonymous No.23098612]

>>23094250
The Eastern European woman professor who grew up in communism will be vastly different from your average Western young academics

[Anonymous No.23099436]

>>23093886
How do you know your opinions, thoughts and perspectives regarding the subject are not just as corrupted from whatever came before you and may be lost/overwritten by time, as you think the burgeoning thoughts, perspectives and opinions regarding the subject from the new guard is from your own? Maybe you are looked down upon with the same disdain by a previous movement.
Hell, maybe this is a return to form.

>>23094701
Yeah something like this is what I was implying.

[Anonymous No.23099449]

I studied Latin and Greek in high school, then took Latin again at university as part of my theology degree. You had to pick one of three Biblical languages minimum, so either Latin, Greek or Hebrew. I chose Latin because I thought it would be easy credit and it's not like you're actually going to learn Hebrew from scratch in just a semester.

Turns out the Latin we were thought at university was the equivalent of the Latin you're taught in the first two years of high school, when you're 13-14 years old. So basic grammar, some translation work, some vocabulary.

The exam at university consisted of translating a Latin New Testament text. In high school we had to be able to do both: translate *from* Latin, and translate *to* Latin. Not at uni.

We were also allowed to use a Latin dictionary. The exam was piss easy and the professor regularly complained about being stuck in this predicament, because he was chained by some university-wide rule that you can't have a too high percentage of your class fail, or your course (and your teaching) gets flagged as too harsh or too demanding.

[Anonymous No.23099454]

>>23099449
Latin was an elective. I took one year of it. But then the teacher left the high school to get more money doing something else. So I could not continue latin education. And in college I could only study stem.

[Anonymous No.23099455]

>>23093554
>>23093551
Plenty of fantastic islamic philosophy and literature, much better than the aquinas/monastic shit that was coming out of western europe at the time IMO. Still, you can't ignore the greeks. Undergraduates should read/learn EVERYTHING.

[Anonymous No.23099463]

>>23099454
Becoming a Latin teacher was one of my "plan B" career paths because you're sure of work, get lots of vacation time, and because you're teaching Latin, by definition you'll end up at a good school (aka a non-diverse one.) But yes, the prospect of a fixed, low salary for life with no possibility of promotion led me to other paths. Shame because I enjoy teaching quite a lot, and I gave a few philosophy lessons at my old high school as a guest speaker (for free). It was fun. Doing it for a job though, I feel like that is where ambition goes to die.

[Anonymous No.23099470]

>>23099463
Yeah well I'm sad and I wish I could have had the chance to study greek and the near east classics.

[Anonymous No.23099473]

>>23099470
It's never too late

[Anonymous No.23099521]

>>23099473
Yeah it is. And I'm American. Its over for that kind of academics. Ill never be in a little tweed coat smoking a pipe taking trips to morocco, cairo, ankara, beirut.
It is what it is.

[Anonymous No.23099688]

>>23099521
the american vanity at full display here

[Anonymous No.23100202]

>>23099521
You can study them on your own. Won't be at a university but you can certainly read them, and depending in editions, you will probably be able to find some with into/notes by older professors.

You won't be jetting off to the otherside of the world to teach but you can learn at home

[Anonymous No.23100228]

>>23097183
God damn how did you make every single point somehow more retarded than the last

[Anonymous No.23100260]

>>23100202
>just stay home and study on your own
No. Thats some cope man

[Anonymous No.23100261]

>>23093551
Yakubian texts

[Anonymous No.23100488]

>>23100260
That's the best I got anon.
Unless you're gonna start your own university or know of a way to fix our current ones, you have cope as your option.

I've read alot of classical Greek works and love them. Aside from one semester of European history at college that I took to fill a required elective, I never had any sort of uni program to add to it all.

There was a classical lit class I took in high school that in hind sight I should've appreciated more. We read Hamiltons mythology and Oedipus Rex among other things. Teacher at least was enthusiastic about it

[Anonymous No.23100548]

>>23100488
I'm just too old, my age starts with a 2 and its the WRONG kind of 2. Theres nowhere I can go for help either. I cant just study greek and sanskrit on my own. Because I'm retarded. I am just too stupid and lazy. Blame nature or nature. But I know myself enough for that. Even for the things I'm genuinely interested in. I just can't go beyond trivia without guidance. And you'll just have to take my word for it that when I do have guidance I am able to properly engage and discuss and research these things. But at the end of the day. I'm just a stupid man who thinks sad thoughts. I can barely muster the will to leave my bedroom and aimlessly walk around my rapidly deteriorating city in an attempt to get fresh air and to do something that isnt just lying in bed. This isn't a transitory phase either, this is just my life. There is no academia for me to commit myself to. So the only thing commitment I could possibly have is to be committed some day.

[Anonymous No.23100920]

>>23100548
Anon being in your 20s is not a bad thing. You can always do an online course if needed. Not the same as at uni but itll allow you to do it without having to relocate

You can learn if you so wish

[Anonymous No.23100995]

>>23100920
stop replying to this fat self pitying burger

[Anonymous No.23101289]

>>23099436
Preach, sister. Plato was always Black.

[Anonymous No.23101304]

>>23099463
Ambition for more money? Sure, but teaching is rewarding in other ways. Frees up a lot of time for self-study.

[Anonymous No.23101728]

>>23097702
>inevitable caesarism within the coming generations
>the decadent old financial empire vassalizing the world gets replaced with a true flesh bound american empire
future is looking brighter than you'll ever know

[Anonymous No.23101744]

>>23101289
>Plato was always Black

shit like this is why other countries want to nuke us btw

[Anonymous No.23101766]

>>23093547
Heracles was black

[Anonymous No.23101768]

>>23101744
>be years ago, nearly a decade now
>See 'shakespeare could have been a black woman articles online'
>come to 4chan or facebook at the time
>liberal baiters online saying no one actually says this
>go to college English course
>instructor says this

I'm just glad they've given up on playing stupid.

[Anonymous No.23101860]

>>23093551
The Classic Tales of the Igbo in their Struggle for Freedom from the Angloid Oppressor

[Anonymous No.23101870]

>>23101744
How do you know their opinions, thoughts and perspectives regarding the subject are not just as corrupted from whatever came before them and may be lost/overwritten by time, as they think the burgeoning thoughts, perspectives and opinions regarding the subject from the new guard is from their own? Maybe they are looked down upon with the same disdain by a previous movement.

[Anonymous No.23101928]

>>23101870
bot found the thread