/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.2776273]

Hello e/lit/e people,

You may smirk at my request - and that is fine - but here's my problem: I'm a neutral turned atheist turned agnostic, turned maybe Christian. It has been a strenuous path, and most of it was done through reading. So I've been reading apologetics for a time, and that made me give more credit to Christianity.

Years went by, and now I'm back reading a book of apologetics. Supposedly, it proves a lot of things, but even though I read and understand the argument, I'm not convinced. Something's amiss.

What do you people recommend to strengthen my faith? It doesn't need to be Christianity (although that's where I am now), any sort of theism is welcome.

>I've already read most of C.S. Lewis' theology books

Thank you, people.

[Anonymous No.2776279]

this is a terrible thread and you seem like a teenager

[Anonymous No.2776276]

god this thread makes me smirk.

pro-tip: you were never atheist.

[Anonymous No.2776281]

Religious texts? Seems to work for some people (also turns some people right off when they see what their religion actually teaches...)

[Anonymous No.2776280]

>>2776276

Actually, I was. You could argue I still am.

[Anonymous No.2776283]

You want to read books that reinforce the things you want to believe rather than books that challenge them. You are horrible.

[Anonymous No.2776282]

>>2776276
>Implying that either atheists can't turn theist, or there are no atheists

[Anonymous No.2776284]

>>2776279

It's OK bro, if trying to get other people down to feel better about yourself is the only thing you have going for you, I'll indulge you.

[Anonymous No.2776289]

>>2776284
you really are dumb

why don't you try living and aging a little and stop wasting time with these masturbatory books

[Anonymous No.2776290]

>>2776283

Wrong assumptions. I did mention that other books on theism are welcome.

I don't need books on atheism because I've been an atheist for over a decade and read stuff from that side back then.

You can recommend Dawkins but I doubt it'd convince much more than the book in my pic. Probably even less.

Atheists recommend me science books usually, which is fine but unrelated.

[Anonymous No.2776292]

>>2776289

I have done that. I'm not that young anymore. As to masturbation, masturbation ought to be fun. Reading these books doesn't make me come.

[Anonymous No.2776295]

Personally I stay away from all the other bullshit. All I need to know (or want to) regarding Christianity is in the New Testament. That's it, right there, all you need. The other noise is fun, if you like to hear people talk about what they think, but if you want to know about Christianity just read the NT and let the clarity come to you.
But if you really care about what Lewis thinks about it, or what Dawkins says, or the Pope, go ahead.

[Anonymous No.2776296]

I'd start by burning every book you own that isn't christian.
Then take psychotropic drugs and continually chant "God Is great" until you fall into a psychosis.

wtf? "i don't believe but i want to. please help me to become a moron".

[Anonymous No.2776297]

>>2776289
i'm a teen and way smarter than you bro
believe it or not

[Anonymous No.2776298]

OH MY GOD OP ISN'T A NEW-ATHEIST DAWKINS WORSHIPPER OH GOD BURN THE HERETIC HE'S ILLOGICAL HE'S GONNA START A HOLY WAR OH MY SCIENCE

[Anonymous No.2776300]

>>2776273
I find this man's life inspiring. Even as a non-believer. If I ever were to become a Christian I would probably join his order. He's the Cynic among saints.

[Anonymous No.2776304]

>>2776295
>All I need to know (or want to) regarding Christianity is in the New Testament.

Stopped reading there. Not being a Jew from 2000 years ago does take its toll on our understanding. What seems normal to us was outrageous back then and contained meanings that elude us.

>Jesus meets Samaritan woman at well, at noon

>so?

>Jews not allowed to talk to women
>woman is at the well at noon, this means a lot
>in this country, you go to the well in the early morning or at sunset; the rest of the time it's too hot
>woman goes at noon to ensure no other woman will be there
>that implies she's ashamed, shunned, etc, most likely because she was accused of cheating on her husband
>Jews not allowed to talk to cheaters

etc

You can't go with just the New Testament. Why limit yourself at that? It's like saying DON'T READ ANYTHING OTHER THAN DARWIN.

It's a religion, not a meteorite.

[Anonymous No.2776308]

Plantinga.

[Anonymous No.2776309]

>>2776296

I've considered taking mushrooms and LSD for my spiritual quest, but gave up the idea when I got scared of messing up my brain.

[Anonymous No.2776312]

>>2776300

Noted. Any book by him you'd recommend?

[sage No.2776311]

sage

[Anonymous No.2776316]

>>2776283

>says he who has never read a book from the opposing side

[Anonymous No.2776322]

>>2776297
>>2776297
>>2776297

>Teenager convinced of his own genius
>mfw

oh wow. OP, you don't believe because Christianity doesn't make sense. You want to believe because it is an incredibly comforting myth and there are definite advantages to belonging to a structure like organised religion. Your nagging doubts will only grow stronger because you are not a moron and you can't delude yourself forever.

You are going to be an atheist, whether you admit it to yourself or not.

[Anonymous No.2776325]

>>2776322

That wasn't me, bro. I'm way past being a teenager.

[Anonymous No.2776326]

>>2776290
You mischaracterize so subtly, you must have a lot of practice. You quickly lump me with Dawkins, say that you read other stuff before so that means now you don't have to challenge your beliefs, and then attach a nonsequitor about what atheists generally recommend to try to undermine the credibility of my challenge, even though I didn't say anything about my spiritual affiliation.

So yeah, I can see why you'd be interested in apologetics.

[Anonymous No.2776327]

whether religious or non-religious you should read Kierkegaard. I'm an atheist but reading Kierkegaard helped me think about many of the thoughts I had one faith and non-faith as a young man.

[Anonymous No.2776328]

>>2776322
>an incredibly comforting myth

>all your friends tortured forever

Not exactly comforting to me. I've lost sleep over this.

[Anonymous No.2776334]

>>2776328
I've asked some Christians about this. Apparently that's not a problem because once you're in heaven literally nothing outside of heaven bothers you at all. It's just that great.

[Anonymous No.2776333]

>>2776322

I've already gone through that cycle, I'm farher. I'm like those ex-fat people who still feel somewhat fat. My mind still lives in an atheistic universe as its default parameter.

Nagging doubts, I have them about every paradigm. Atheism isn't excluded from those doubts. You seem very sure of yourself, and I do not imagine that this is because of your extended research in either atheism or theism.

[Anonymous No.2776337]

>>2776316
I have read and continue to have an interest in religious books despite not being religious because I am actually interested in what people think. I've never read a single "New Atheist" book because I don't need somebody to go on and on about something I probably already thought through.

[Anonymous No.2776340]

>>2776322
and if you are truly smart you will transcended athiesm into genuine non-newage spirituality and not get sucked into the hole of modern nihilism/materialism/athiesm.

>wahh having a peace of mind is for the deluded wahh im emotionally insensitive

also think christianity as a myth shows your uneducatedness in theology. go back to /sci/

[Anonymous No.2776342]

>>2776326

Then go ahead and recommend me any book you think speaks the truth.

[Anonymous No.2776343]

>>2776327

I like what I heard of his work. What should I start with?

[Anonymous No.2776344]

>>2776328
they should stop being a bunch of sociopaths then

[Benny Profane !!muO1YE/mn/J No.2776347]

>>2776340

>genuine non-newage spirituality

What does this entail, exactly? Curious atheist here.

[Anonymous No.2776348]

>>2776334

I've heard that too, it's from Catherine of Sienna, but it's a rather heinous idea, and while I may have no problem with it in Heaven (highly debatable still), I have problems with it now.

[Anonymous No.2776352]

>>2776343
Get a reader (there's a good one by Bretall). He doesn't really have a single work that encapsulates his whole thought.

If you want to go all out then start with Either/Or or Fear and Trembling I suppose. Concluding Unscientific Postscript is a keystone, but I haven't read it yet.

Two Ages is underrated and contains some interesting material on his thoughts on modern (for him) society.

[Anonymous No.2776353]

>>2776347
how the fuck do i know
i'm just yelling at him
don't make me yell at you

[Benny Profane !!muO1YE/mn/J No.2776358]

>>2776353

Be gentle. I'm just trying to find my way, compañero.

[Anonymous No.2776359]

[Anonymous No.2776367]

>>2776340

>wanted to feel smarter than everyone else
>became atheist
>wanted to feel smarter than all the atheist
>claim to be ultra-intelligent and move to a new visceral spirituality without traditions but with a warm fuzzy feeling

[Anonymous No.2776368]

[Anonymous No.2776373]

>>2776367
>a warm fuzzy feeling
How is that a bad thing?


I can take nihilism further than you could even dream of.
don't test me

[Anonymous No.2776376]

>>2776340
unfortunately for you, christianity has bored a hole into your brain so deep that it's actually impossible for you to think in any other way. enjoy being left behind in the 21st century. get off /lit/

[Anonymous No.2776379]

About the putative failing of atheism, Solzhenitsyn declared:

Over a half century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of old people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened." Since then I have spent well-nigh 50 years working on the history of our revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval. But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous revolution that swallowed up some 60 million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened."[45]

[Anonymous No.2776382]

>It has been a strenuous path

privileged people's problems

[Anonymous No.2776383]

>>2776342
I've never read a book that I thought "spoke the truth," but some works I thought were interesting are Emerson's Nature and the Tao Te Ching.

[Anonymous No.2776385]

>>2776376
your FUCKING PEER PRESSURE does NOT WORK ON ME YOU FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT I WILL REBEL U CANT DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT

[Anonymous No.2776387]

>>2776382

Well, actually, the assumption that materialism is essential is typical of privileged fucks like you.

[Anonymous No.2776388]

I don't know about being argumentative and convincing, but if you want to be enthusiastic about Christianity, I'd say the divine comedy is a good way. I'm a hopeless nihilist and now I even enjoy all the loving crap.

[Anonymous No.2776395]

>>2776388

I read till Purgatory but this is nothing that'd give me more faith. (It is epic literature, though.)

>tfw the world literally revolves around Satan's cock

[Anonymous No.2776399]

>>2776304
You seem to think a lot has changed in 2000 years. But not really.

[Anonymous No.2776404]

>>2776343
Start with Either/Or, it is his first book, not particular in the religious but still deals with it.

Pretty much everything he wrote had an aspect of the religious in it or a reference to it, kierkegaard himself was a priest.

Particularly you'll also want to read:
Fear and trembling
The concept of anxiety
Philosophical fragments
Stages on life's way

Kierkegaard was very much a proponent of a personal faith, a non-political faith, a faith wholly subjective. Something many people today can relate to, I think.

[Anonymous No.2776411]

G.K. Chestertons book on Augustine
Or the one on cheese

[Anonymous No.2776408]

>>2776399

These things have changed. Very much so.

>implying we stone people for picking up wood on sabbath

[Anonymous No.2776415]

>>2776399
Try going to the dentist 2000 years ago.

[Anonymous No.2776443]

>>2776415
>>2776408
Yes, those things have changed (mostly). But that's still not *a lot*. Right, we drive cars and have kindles and trained horses, but I'm not sure how those thigns are relevant to Christianity. So you say "Dentists have changed", but not the dentist who beats his wife or steals. The dentist who gives free service to the poor, he hasn't changed either. So no, things haven't changed. Not in any way that relates to OP's relationship with Christianity. Was there some upgrade to Christianity 2.0 I missed?

[Anonymous No.2776453]

>>2776443
>The dentist who gives free service to the poor, he hasn't changed either.

Such things even exist?

[Anonymous No.2776459]

>>2776443

Vatican II

[Anonymous No.2776462]

I just think you are still too trapped in names. On the differences between atheism and theism, theology and science.

Our society is fixed in materialism. For most people, whatever which is not physical is not real and the weird thing is that this goes for religious people as well. So you have fundamentalists, creationists and so on, which is basicly a physical reading of mythical texts. Both sides go extreme and so they differ on what is wrong and what is right, on what exists and what doesn't exist.

If you read any text with the right pair of eyes, the terms are interchangeable. Tao, God and Nature might mean the very same things, while the dynamics of that "thing" are going to be discussed through a particular point of view. Point is that something is lost in the words and so the other side seems misguided.

To the theist, the atheist is denying God. To the atheist, the theist has invented a God for himself. To the agnostic, both have good and bad points, but there is no decision. This is how most people interpret this discussion these days. I don't think there is much a difference on *what* each of them are talking about, but on *how*. A lot of scientists in the past said they were simply studying God as they were observing phenomenons, not because they were religious as a person is religious today, but because they were religious and scientific within the context in which they worked on.

cont.

[Anonymous No.2776464]

>>2776459

Pope X-treme the First.

[Anonymous No.2776466]

>>2776273
>Hello e/lit/e people,


IJ or GTFO

[Anonymous No.2776481]

>>2776466
>IJ or GTFO

[Anonymous No.2776496]

>>2776462 here

Lost what I was saying, computer crashed...

But the second part were my recommendations, so I'll sum it up and write it again:

- Avoid contemporary books, specially those made as a response, specially those "why I'm right and you are wrong" books
- Go for ancient text and go for the unusual. Islamic, Hindu, Japanese, Greek. Search their mythology
- Carl G. Jung. He was raised as a Christian, he is one of the most honest writers I know on the subject and will talk about our relationship to myths better than anyone. A good start would be Man and his Symbols. His autobiography Dreams, Memories, Reflections might also be of great interest to you.
- Alan Watts will get introduce you to eastern thinking like no one and will close the gaps of miscomprehension in a very lucid way. The Spirit of Zen is short, simple and even shallow, but good enough as an introduction. There are videos of his talks here: http://deoxy.org/watts.htm .
- Read fairytales. Brothers Grimm, Hans Christian Andersen, folklore stories, european or not. Some say God is merely a fairytale, as a way to mock theism. I say that's a perfect analogy, God IS a fairytale and they are both equally relevant from a mythological perspective and may teach us something about the world.
- Taking drugs might be a gateway to religious experiences, but in case you want to try, I advise you to do it in a place far away from urban and mundane situations. The drink Ahayuasca is one of the most potent of that kind. It's dangerous, really dangerous, so show respect to the drugs you use.

Don't fall for the trap of words and names and classifications. Be careful. Good read.

[Anonymous No.2776521]

>>2776290
I thought you were trolling in the OP, now I just feel sorry for you.

>>2776481
Cum on it or get the fuck out. Stop wasting my time.

[Anonymous No.2777465]

ibn russhd/Averroes

[that's not my name, mom No.2777494]

I am an atheist myself OP, and /lit/ (in general) seems like the wrong place to ask the question you ask since it is mostly populated by atheist (both hardcore and agnostics). I think married old fag would have given you good guidance, a shame he is not here right now.

And to the other atheists in here: don't forget that brilliant minds are often characterized by their hability to sustain complex, problematic ideas (even if they seem irrational to you). Faith is not a moral flaw, fellows. You do a diservice to yourselves when being agressive about it

[Anonymous No.2777499]

You can torrent most of these.

First, the bible
http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies

http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=6240

Next, basic history:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFFD1C791A86FB485&feature=plcp
http://itunes.apple.com/us/itunes-u/history-of-christianity-i/id378878750
http://itunes.apple.com/us/itunes-u/history-of-christianity-ii/id378878708
http://itunes.apple.com/us/itunes-u/history-philosophy-christian/id378879176

Religious literacy:

http://www.recordedbooks.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=scholar.show_course&course_id=137
http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=6891


Finally, pick your subjects:

http://sententias.org/2011/08/17/how-to-get-a-theological-education-through-itunes-u/

http://www.openculture.com/philosophy_free_courses

[Anonymous No.2777509]

You sound like an awesome reader. Try attending a synagogue for Shabbat, around 9 or 10 AM on Saturdays. They focus on the original text of the Bible, discuss translation, recite it in Hebrew and your local language, and in general are more political and more intellectual than the typical Christian gathering. More stimulating. Better organization for service than an orthodox Catholic church's. Not too strange. You can attend the synagogue without any special clothing, they will provide a kippah for you, and if you find it distasteful, try going back to church on Sunday.

I've attended churches for years, never made the effort to try attending a Muslim temple yet, and I'm raised secular. I am always challenging my disbelief. Some of the smartest writers I know are Christian or Jewish.

[Anonymous No.2777511]

you want to force-believe in something that you dont feel comfortable believing in? huh?

[[e-mail] !!jQErY3Wneyv No.2777535]

Have you tried On the Genealogy of Morals, The Antichrist, or Twilight of the Idols?

[Anonymous No.2777538]

Try anything written by Lesslie Newbigin--especially his book "Proper Confidence." He does a great job of explaining how both critics of Christianity as well as Christian fundamentalists get caught up in some of the more dogmatic moments of the Enlightenment. Newbigin himself learned much from the Hungarian scientist-cum-philosopher Michael Polanyi (not a Christian) whose work addressed the tricky relationship issues surrounding faith, certainty, and doubt. Check him out.