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/lit/ - Literature

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3188209 No.3188209 [Reply] [Original]

Is it just me or does _The Brothers Karamazov_ fail to provide a convincing refutation to Ivan's arguments in "Rebellion" and "The Grand Inquisitor"?

>> No.3188227

>>3188209
It isn't just you. Dostoevsky valued Christianity on account of the fear he invested in anomie: he would have upheld its doctrines, he has said, even if all logic demanded their untruth.

>> No.3188258

>>3188227
In other words, Dostoevksi was a coward,

>> No.3188277

>>3188258
no u

>> No.3188287

>>3188258
Yes, Ollie, you've summed it up. Perfectly, in fact. Dostoevsky, the man who passed literature in samizdat and was put before the firing range for it, who spent five years in prison, and five in the Russian army, was a coward.

>> No.3188295

>>3188258
I wonder why people find it so hard to understand that a person can do one this very well and another poorly. In a lot of complex tasts, intelligence is not enough. Dostoyevski could write a character and plot a story. He couldn't predict or explain history, religion or politics.

Only simpletons dig into him, expecting some sort of revelation. Outside of crafting a novel, Dostoyevski was a inflexible, badly educated drunkard who believed in Jesus Christ and nationalism above all.

>> No.3188301

>>3188295
Hold up, he wasn't badly educated.

>> No.3188309

>>3188287
Dostoyevski was a part of a shitty circle and was put on trial for that. He did nothing much, just some random teenage rebellion, which sure was punishable at the time, because tsar feared revolution.

He was an addict, and gambler and a coward allright.

>>3188301
Yes he was. As most poor nobles were at the time. Shit that passed for education back that was laughable, especially in the poorer nobility.

>> No.3188313

>>3188295
>this person from over a century ago failed to anticipate and account for my 21st century secular morality
>what a fucking simpleton!

>> No.3188322

>>3188313
Dostoyevski's beliefs were outdated when he was an infant. Remember the mother fucking Voltaire of all people.

Among the educated young people there were just as many non-religious people atheists as there are now. Dostoyevski's whole shtick in the later works was that riligion was being laughed at, apparently legitimately, BUT THAT'll RUIN RUSSIA AND DECIMATE THE SPIRITUALITY OH GOD.

>> No.3188327

>>3188322
>BUT THAT'll RUIN RUSSIA AND DECIMATE THE SPIRITUALITY OH GOD.

...And he was right.

>> No.3188329

>>3188327
Russia's still there. Dostoyevski's antisemitism isn't.

>> No.3188335

>>3188287
Intellectually and spiritually, anyway.

>>3188295
Yes. Dostoevski is just a person, with flaws and stuff; like everyone else.

>>3188322
That's such a dangerous mindset to have, too. That's how people, companies, nations die. They hold onto shit that is no longer relevant and then wonder why the world passes them by.

>> No.3188339

>>3188335
>Yes. Dostoevski is just a person, with flaws and stuff; like everyone else.
Therefore, there is no reason to expect him to udnerstand social dynamics and history just because he was a good novelist. Seperate fields need seperate proof of skill.

>> No.3188343

>>3188329
And yet it suffered 70 years of jewish soviet union rule

>> No.3188348

>>3188327
He clung to the old instead of trying to introduce something new that might have actually helped Russia steer itself in the 20th century and beyond.

That's such an assinine position to take. "Don't do this because it'll be the end of you!" while not acknowledging that things can't just stay the same as they always were. It's like bemoaning the fact that people age. What kind of an attitude is that to have?

>> No.3188349

>>3188343
>jewish soviet union rule
Thankfully, they didn't have to suffer the jewish Nazi regime, eh? Or that jew Mao Zedong's crazy cultural revolution shenanigans, or what the nigger jews are doing on the african south.

The biggest threat a jew actually ever managed to unleash upon humanity was Facebook.

>> No.3188353

>>3188339
Did I say I expected all that of him? I'm just disappointed he was a coward. It's not that difficult not to be an intellectual and spiritual coward. I grew up in a country that's 90% religious. You don't see me making excuses for it.

>> No.3188355

>>3188322
>“Existentialism isn't so atheistic that it wears itself out showing that God doesn't exist. Rather, it declares that even if God did exist, that would change nothing.”
~Theodore Ditherwhisky

He knew that secularization would dissolve the moral locus of his society, as he knew that the alternative to God was nihilism, and that, in trying to develop a notion of justice from that base, their politics would clog with indecision, or moral paralysis, and then ethical standards would slacken in their ambiguity.

Also, what the fuck are you talking about? Voltaire wasn't an atheist.

>> No.3188358

>>3188349
the Soviet Union were far worse than the Nazis . . .

>> No.3188362

>>3188353
>I grew up in a country that's 90% religious
welp, someone just got confirmed for an ego-defensive attitude.

>> No.3188367

>>3188355
>He knew that secularization would dissolve the moral locus of his society, as he knew that the alternative to God was nihilism, and that, in trying to develop a notion of justice from that base, their politics would clog with indecision, or moral paralysis, and then ethical standards would slacken in their ambiguity.
History shows that he was entirely full of shit.

Less people believes in any sort of god today, yet the world is in all respects a much happier place than it was in the XIX century. Back then, we were barely crawling out of the dog-approved nobility and god-approved slavery and god-approved child labour and god-approved women housepets and god-approved wars.

>>3188358
>the Soviet Union were far worse than the Nazis . . .
Wow.

>> No.3188368

>believing in a personal, intervening God, who cares about what clothes we wear, who we have sex with and what we eat etc.

I don't mind a Spinozean 'God' though

>> No.3188370

>>3188355
>He knew that secularization would dissolve the moral locus of his society, as he knew that the alternative to God was nihilism
He knew wrong. My moral standards are objectively higher than his, and I'm an atheist.

No, seriously, I don't drink or gamble or treat my wife and kids like shit. I'm a far better person than Dostoyevski ever was, what with his spirituality and fear for the motherland.

>> No.3188374

>>3188368
Spinoza was chill no matte rhow you look at him. He was right in all things, because he didn't really say anything. His whole philosophy boils down to "Evidence is basically inconclusive", which is the most intelligent thing to say ont eh subject.

>> No.3188375

>>3188362
GO TO BED, FREUD

Seriously, someone is still using Freud? In 2012? I am shocked.

>> No.3188377

>>3188375
>Seriously, someone is still using Freud? In 2012? I am shocked.
People who studied what they were told was literary theory still do, as funny as it is. They arne't evil, though, they were tricked.

>> No.3188378

>>3188370
>My moral standards are objectively higher than his
>objectively

Read more.

>> No.3188379

>>3188367
Correlation != Causation
The modern world being "happier" doesn't mean its because there's less religion. And it doesn't necessarily prove Dostoevsky wrong.

>> No.3188381

>>3188378
My moral standards are objectively higher than his.

>> No.3188383

>>3188370
you sound like a 16 year old.

>> No.3188384

>>3188379
Dostoyevski made a positive claim that needs to be proven, not me. There's no need to disprove him. He was wrong by default, until conclusive proof arrives, which it still hasn't.

As of now, the world is getting less religious and more prosperous. Dostoyevski thought that, without God, humanity is dommed to misery. He was wrong. There are lots of Gods. An iPad will fly in msot cases, and where it won't, Beethoven will. Or Dostoyevski.

Yea, he was very wrong.

>> No.3188385

>>3188383
And you sound like you have nothing whatsoever of value to say.

>> No.3188389

>>3188384
suicide rates are higher than ever before

>> No.3188394

>>3188389
Yes, teenage suicides were pretty much unheard of in the XIX.

How come you counted? Compare the percentage of people that killt hemselves today and back then. Don't forget to scale according to the number of people that lived back then. Remember, it wasn't always 7 billion. It was under one billion.

>> No.3188392

>>3188381
pls suicide

>> No.3188407

>>3188375
Actually, pal, the four-function model of attitudes is contemporary psychology, and wasn't proposed until 1960, and has since withstood investigation. I know this because I am studying psychology.

>> No.3188423

>>3188407
>thinks I care

>> No.3188445

>>3188367
>Wow.

Are you literally suggesting that the nazi's were worse than the soviets? Or that the nazi's were bad at all?

>> No.3188451

>>3188367
>yet the world is in all respects a much happier place than it was in the XIX century.

Technology has improved, this is a completely seperate thing and "happiness" among women has steadily declined as cultural marxist and "female lib" shit came more common.

>> No.3188465

>>3188423
>doesn't care about being wrong
>welcome to /lit/

>> No.3188467

>>3188445
>>>>>>>>>>>/pol/
>>>>>>>>>>>/b/
>>>>>>>>>>>/first grade/

>> No.3188472

>>3188451
But men's happiness has increased. So it all evens out.

>> No.3188478

>>3188465
No, I'm just saying IDGAF about psychology.

>> No.3188490

>>3188467
Yeah but suggesting the Soviets were any better is just as bad.

>> No.3188494

>>3188423
>accused of caring too much
>has no obligation to reply
>replies with 'thinks I care'

>> No.3188497

>>3188478
You were trying to lecture me on what was valid psychology, you do remember?

>> No.3188562

>>3188445
>the nazi's were worse than the soviets
You're worse than the nazi's dictarot Adolf Hitler.

>> No.3188575

>>3188490
>Yeah but suggesting the Soviets were any better is just as bad.

No. An ideology that upholds evil acts with pride (knowing full well that they are evil) is far worse than hypocritical rulers that pervert a good-sounding ideology for personal gain.

The first is grade-A absolute evil, the second is just par for the course for _any_ government.

>> No.3188582

>>3188575
I see that old denazification propaganda is still holding up well.

Also,
>using words like "evil" and expecting to be taken seriously
>2012

>> No.3188589

>>3188575
>the belief that a culturally and ethnically homogeneous society is happier and more productive is EVIIIILLLL!!! all nazis should be tortured to death!!!

>> No.3188605

>>3188589

> the belief that a culturally and ethnically homogeneous society

That's not the problem. The problem is when you start to arbitrarily judge people to be more- or less- human, and start discarding morality based on that arbitrary judgment.

>using words like "evil" and expecting to be taken seriously

Right. Of course the validity of an argument is totally predicated on using long and complex-sounding words, not on the argument itself.

>> No.3188619

>>3188605
the jews were treated no worse than any other p.o.w.'s in ww2.

wait. don't tell me you actually believe in the 6 BILLION ?

>> No.3188618

to OP and everyone agreeing with him: did you even read Father Zosima's homilies? Did you even read the epilogue? And Book 10?

>> No.3188633

>>3188618
Obviously I did, but I didn't find any of it particularly convincing. I mean, at what point was it proven or convincingly argued that having faith in people is more rational than having no faith in people? Or that the average man on the street is capable of handling total free will? Ivan is conveniently turned insane simply because he is unable to overcome his social conditioning.

But if I've missed something or you have a different interpretation, please enlighten me.

>> No.3188650

>>3188619
nazi scum fuck off

>> No.3188661

>>3188633
The idea that every individual is guilty before all people and that if people lose the sense of there being something grander connecting them to 'other worlds' then 'everything [becomes] permitted' and man's life turns to ruin.

Think about the importance of memory and consequent repentance—Dmitri's feelings for his father are such as they are because of the lack of love, whereas Grigory, who cared for him, is shown remorse, and he holds with him all his life the memory of the bag of nuts that the doctor gave him as a small boy. Those are the things that save him from complete depravity (of which the same cannot be said for his brother Ivan or half-brother Smerdyakov).

Then there's Ilyusha's relation to Kolya and the rest of the boys. The central idea of the whole book is right in the final chapter. Alyosha got the little boys to be 'good persons' for just that one period of time: when Ilyusha was bedridden and finally at his funeral. If they should lose sight of that goodness and why it came about, their lives will follow the same path Father Zosima warned against: losing sight of the presence of a connection to those 'other worlds,' and therefore falling into the same moral depravity that befell Ivan and Smerdyakov

>> No.3188684

>>3188619

I'm not the guy you're replying to but if you think that the holocaust didn't happen you and anyone who takes you seriously are morons.

>> No.3188688

>>3188497
>way too invested in telling everyone about his career

No one cares that you're a psychologist. It's soft science. Might as well read tea leaves. Now, if you were a neuro-surgeon or something ...

>> No.3188702

>>3188688

What he said. Because he's me. I forgot to tripfag.