/lit/ - Literature

File: 45 KB, 656x600, 1324914110183.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 05:22:47 2013 No.3415428 [DELETED]

Why the fuck do people read fantasy books? I cannot imagine a bigger waste of time.

>mfw I found out there are fantasy series that have been going on for decades with tens of books and thousands and thousands of pages

Why waste all that time reading what is basically a soap opera for nerds, when you could put it to good use and reading something of value?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 05:23:34 2013 No.3415431 probably 'cuz you're gay

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 05:24:05 2013 No.3415434 >>3415428 >fantasy books All fiction is fantasy, you dipshit. >fantasy series Not all fantasy comes packaged in 'series'.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 05:24:33 2013 No.3415432 >>3415431 People read fantasy books because OP is a homosexual? That's how I read your post. I lol'd.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 05:37:54 2013 No.3415462 >>3415434 he meant high fantasy

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 05:40:12 2013 No.3415468 >>3415462 What, like, Homer?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 05:40:28 2013 No.3415469 I was about to post a thread similar to this, thanks OP. My question is "Why people think fantasy sucks, why people don't like fantasy?"

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 05:41:13 2013 No.3415473

i imagine it's a matter of taste, and people enjoying them.

i don't like fantasy books either, but i'm aware that they're entertaining to some people.

better question:

why do you care what other people read? and what really has more value anyway? no matter how many "nerd soap operas" someone reads in comparison to all the books of "value" i imagine you think you read you both end up the same way eventually and that booklist of shit you read while you were alive becomes meaningless.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 05:46:16 2013 No.3415479

If a person's choices of entertainment/sheer escapism are a TV show, a video game, a movie, or a book, why chastise them for choosing the book? Even if it has no literary value, it's much more stimulating than the previous three.

Everyone needs to give their mind a break every now and then.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 05:48:48 2013 No.3415486 File: 916 KB, 245x285, 1358421191909.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3415434 >all fiction is fantasy h-h-here I go!

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 05:51:05 2013 No.3415489 >>3415468 Maybe he meant the Aenid. Or Gilgamesh. Or Beowulf.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 05:52:05 2013 No.3415491 Are you implying that reading some 'high art' literature is not a waste of time either?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 05:52:06 2013 No.3415494 >>3415462 In that case I agree. Atlas Shrugged is schlocky escapism. Go for The Lord of the Rings instead.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 05:56:09 2013 No.3415503 but why fantasy is considered to have "little literary value"?

>>	heaven Wed Jan 30 05:59:26 2013 No.3415510 >>3415503 because they are usually generic derivative rip-offs of each other. The characters are also usually one-dimensional and unrealisitc such as those in LOTR.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 06:01:28 2013 No.3415513

>>3415473
>and that booklist of shit you read while you were alive becomes meaningless.
This.

Who gives a flying fuck.
People will do what they want to do.
You can waste time trying to understand, or you can just get over it continue to do the equally meaningless shit you do.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 06:03:30 2013 No.3415517 >>3415510 So, basically, the same as all post-modernist literature?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 06:04:01 2013 No.3415521 >>3415473 >i imagine it's a matter of taste, and people enjoying them. >that booklist of shit you read while you were alive becomes meaningless. This guy knows what's up.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 06:04:31 2013 No.3415520

>>3415503
Because most of it is junk.
There are a few gems, but because it's popular and generates many published pages that lack quality that tends to overshadow he perception of the works with real literary merit.

The same can be said for historical fiction, or romance, horror or even fucking detective fiction.

>genre fiction
Most of it is repetative crap published to make the authors and publishers money; in this world you don't need to produce quality to make a buck.

>>	heaven Wed Jan 30 06:07:03 2013 No.3415527 >>3415517 example? For all I know, they are not as "black and white, good and evil" than the majority of modern high fantasy characters.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 06:07:48 2013 No.3415530 >>3415510 because our time can't contemplate men with strong values, wheter good or bad. but one dimensional doesnt necessarily mean non realistic, just like complex characters are not necessarily good and bad

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 06:17:24 2013 No.3415553 >>3415428 It's fun and relaxing.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 06:21:12 2013 No.3415560

I could ask OP why OP wastes OP's time questioning people as to why they like to read stories.

Shakespeare sure was wasting his time writing fantasy, so fags like us could waste our time reading it.

I'm glad Tolkiens dead; I can't stand a time waster.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 06:25:29 2013 No.3415566 >>3415510 >I don't read fantasy at all, but I'm still going to post opinions /lit/

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 06:38:39 2013 No.3415582 File: 7 KB, 250x250, 1357778387598.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3415428 because they enjoy it? idk, this is kinda a dumb question

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 08:01:49 2013 No.3415711 >>3415428 I agree with OP. Do something more important with your time like listen to Blink 182 and Bayside.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 08:04:51 2013 No.3415723 >>3415428 because i'm sure all you read is your math and physics textbook and the dishwasher manual,and the occasional gay porn novel.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 08:11:25 2013 No.3415733
File: 167 KB, 414x552, 36135_1281651012513_full.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>3415428
>implying enjoyed time is wasted time
>implying there's some loftier goal than enjoyment
>implying push-pin isn't as good as poetry

Keep on with the force don't stop
Don't stop 'til you pleb enough
Keep on with the force don't stop
Don't stop 'til you pleb enough
Keep on with the force don't stop
Don't stop 'til you pleb enough
Keep on with the force don't stop
Don't stop 'til you pleb enough

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 09:39:37 2013 No.3415886 Sometimes I wonder what people like. Here on /lit/ you're a pleb if you - read King - read Rand - haven't read Les Misérables … I should visit /mu/ or /tv/ at least once in my life. Just to see if this is the same there.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 09:42:23 2013 No.3415890 Fantasy and science fiction novels are good for building a visual library for concept artists since most of the imagery relies on your IMAGINATION. It's funny that so few artists in video games actually play video games more than the standard casual.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 09:43:55 2013 No.3415893

>>3415886
All those things are pretty true. I mean, you don't have to have read Les Mis, but you should be aware of its story and characters.

There's no elitism on /tv/ - it's just waifu threads, foot threads and RLM threads. As for /mu/ there is a degree of elitism, but they believe you're elite if you listen to Animal Collective and Radiohead. In other words, avoid both boards.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 09:46:00 2013 No.3415898

>>3415428

Because they're a bunch of Neckbeards. Like thoe ones that read Joyce and Rand and DFW, and the Shakespeare nerds and the King fanboys.

They're hipster faggot neckbeard posers who think somehow that one kind of literature elevates them above those that like another kind, sort of like racists who think one race is better than the other in some ethereal way that has nothing to do with actual percievable qualitative variations.

There is no essential difference between a fat greasy, jobless foreveralone clutching his Wheel of Time paperback and the one clutching his Infinite Jest.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 09:48:04 2013 No.3415901 >>3415733 cognitive dissonance was hard in this one

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 09:49:35 2013 No.3415903 >>3415898 tl:dr Black people are evil not because theyre black, but because they're people. and fantasy literature sucks not because it's fantasy, but because it's literature, Just about everything sucks. Get used to it.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 09:50:37 2013 No.3415907 I feel you OP. Sci Fi is even worse

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 09:57:03 2013 No.3415918 >>3415898 What about the kid who just holds whatever book because he finds reading to be an enjoyable way to pass his time?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 10:04:55 2013 No.3415928 >>3415886 Les Mis is barely one step above most fantasy. Pleb shit for posers.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 10:06:25 2013 No.3415932 >>3415898 You sound like a massive retard.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 10:10:30 2013 No.3415942

>>3415918
that's different. somebody that just reads whatever for the pleasure of it isn't judging anybody else.

Neckbeard is a state of mind: it' requires a haughty attitude that masks a deep-seated inferiority complex. It's the sort of thing you see in The Comic Book Guy on the simpsons, or just about anybody in the New Yorker. There's a sort of smug supercilliousness combined with a screechy defensiveness that's just tooth-grinding.

Guys that read stuff becaise they like it, though; nothing wrong with that.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 10:12:17 2013 No.3415947 >>3415928 >>3415932 See? This is what I'm talking about. You can almost feel the cheeto stains on the keyboards.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 10:15:08 2013 No.3415953 >>3415928 aside from the well researched historical digressions and the very good writing. what do you find great? i'd seriously like to know that.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 10:15:39 2013 No.3415954 >>3415918 Dispicable hedonist.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 11:28:07 2013 No.3416052

>>3415428
It's my form of escapism. I'm sure everyone has one.
I don't watch tv, go to the cinema or play videogames. I read fantasy.

Also most the the books I see posted on /lit/ I would never consider to be "something of value". A bunch of pretentious garbage most of it.
I mean, it's not like you guys are reading Principia Mathematica or Orgin of Species.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 11:41:31 2013 No.3416083 >>3416052 You seem like an idiot.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 11:48:35 2013 No.3416102 File: 101 KB, 640x480, Darwin.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3416052 >it's not like you guys are reading Principia Mathematica or Orgin of Species. wut. I'm in the middle of The Origin of Species at the moment.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 11:50:37 2013 No.3416108 >>3416102 AAGHHGGHH AHGH IT'S BACKWARDS. FIXIT FIXIT FIXIT

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 12:03:22 2013 No.3416149 >>3415428 Why do you read what you read? Reading is for enjoyment. People read what they enjoy. If you are reading for some other reason, you're way off point.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 12:04:52 2013 No.3416159 >>3415486 What is Katniss responding too? I need to know if her bitchiness is justified.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 12:07:10 2013 No.3416171 >>3416168 real*

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 12:07:39 2013 No.3416168 >>3416102 Why? It's outdated as a science text and has little to no value as a work of literature. Literally the only reason to read it is because, "lel look so edgy, god iz ded". Fucking read a read biology text, ya faget.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 12:09:41 2013 No.3416180 File: 102 KB, 640x480, Charles.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3416108 Fixd >>3416168 0/10

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 12:12:14 2013 No.3416188 >>3416180 I'm not trolling. Please explain why you would read it. That'd be like me reading a chemistry textbook from before the discovery of the atom or cells, just because, lel science.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 12:21:14 2013 No.3416213

>>3416188
Maybe because they're actually interested in knowing what other minds of a time knew so they can relate and see how they drew conclusions from the information that was at hand.

But here something easier you'll understand.
This man fucking enjoyed reading it. Crazy right?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 12:26:03 2013 No.3416230 >>3416180 You are the worst kind of person. ;_;

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 12:27:19 2013 No.3416235

>>3416188
>Please explain why you would read it.
-Because this book (and the descent of man) is what Marx used to give his 'class struggle is inherent in nature' augment to validate Marxism.

-Because the history of scientific theories is interesting as hell. I do read modern publications on everything from proteomics to particle physics, but also go back and read Newtonian, Galileo, Copernicus..., Learning the history allows me to see how the current theories were grounded and formed.

-Because I had a genuine interest in how Darwin came up with his theory. I knew it had something to do with the shape of bird beaks on different islands, but i actually wanted to understand it properly, following his observations, line of thinking, and understood how he must have felt realizing something so important about our species.

-Because it's actually quite a good read. He travelled the world and saw things very few people at that time even knew existed.

-Because I love history and science.

-Because I love improving my knowledge in every area that I can.

-Because I'm not content with your view that 'history is irrelevant when we can just look at how the world is now' do you also think Aristotle is useless to modern philosophy?

-Because Darwin's basis for evolution hasn't been discredited. It is still valid and improved upon. It is the base for modern evolution theory.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 12:27:52 2013 No.3416238 >>3416235 >-Because I love history and science. Kill yourself

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 12:28:09 2013 No.3416242 >>3416238 >Kill yourself Grow up.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 12:29:10 2013 No.3416245 >>3416242 >hurr science is for grown ups, look mommy imma grownd up now@!!!!!!

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 12:30:11 2013 No.3416251 >>3416245 /lit/s resident asshole is in the house.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 12:30:56 2013 No.3416250 File: 35 KB, 624x352, burning 15000 books.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Maybe you should start a book burning campaign, OP.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 12:31:57 2013 No.3416254

lol at how he comes up with this wall of text. You seriously are autistic.

>>3416235
>Because this book (and the descent of man) is what Marx used to give his 'class struggle is inherent in nature' augment to validate Marxism.

Marxism is so 20th century you faggot.

>do you also think Aristotle is useless to modern philosophy?

He is, in every way.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 12:32:58 2013 No.3416258 >>3416254 >He is, in every way. >confirmed for knowing shit about modern philosophy

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 12:33:00 2013 No.3416263 >>3416258 No you are confirmed for not knowing shit about modern philosophy.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 12:36:18 2013 No.3416269

>>3416254
>Marxism is so 20th century you faggot.

I didn't say I was a Marxist. I'm just interested in learning.

"Darwin, by the way, whom I’m reading just now, is absolutely splendid. There was one aspect of teleology that had yet to be demolished, and that has now been done. Never before has so grandiose an attempt been made to demonstrate historical evolution in Nature, and certainly never to such good effect. One does, of course, have to put up with the crude English method." - Engels

"Darwin’s work is most important and suits my purpose in that it provides a basis in natural science for the historical class struggle." - Marx

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 12:37:20 2013 No.3416274 >>3416269 It's still irrelevant.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 12:39:09 2013 No.3416276 >>3415428 It's like saying: why watch Family Guys when you can watch History Channel. You do it because it's fun m8.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 12:43:43 2013 No.3416289 Why does /lit/ hate fantasy? No seriously. I don't know. I haven't read almost any fiction in years, but I'd read fantasy, it's just fun escapism. BTW was OP a stealth (well not that stealth) jab at SoFaI

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 12:57:29 2013 No.3416319

People who liken towards the Fantasy genre do so, cause it allows for several forms of escapism.

1. Racial Escapism
Fantasy is written exclusively for white people. It paints a world where all the important people are white. It weaves a dichotomy that those of the Good have a whiteness about them, and those of Evil have a foreignness about them.

2. Sex Escapism
Fantasy is written exclusively for hetero males. It illustrates a world where often women, or anything fem, are subject to the males libido and desires. And when not that, they are seen as evil temptresses of seduction corrupting the male.

3. Power Escapism
Fantasy is written exclusively for the young middle class. It shows a world where might makes right, and where oppression of others are justified by the innate qualities of the hero. It fashions every one to some kind of hierarchical order: those at the the top have a better spiritual purity, or have better virtues about them, than those at the bottom.

Fantasy is an enjoyment for white, middle glass, adolescent minded hetreo males who fantasize killing fantastic monsters and fucking women

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 12:59:03 2013 No.3416323

>>3416289
I doubt it. ASOIAF is more of an adventure story in the fantasy mileu than a real fantasy like "A Fine and Private Place", " Mistress Masham's Repose" or "Little, Big". ASOIAF probably belongs with Wheel of Time or the Gor novels in the fantasy/adventure category.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 13:02:50 2013 No.3416331 >>3416319 best response, I often picture the evil races in fantasy as tribal niggers in africa.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 13:05:22 2013 No.3416338 >>3416319 What if I wrote a fantasy that would deconstruct all of this points? And more importantly, would it sell?

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 13:08:39 2013 No.3416344

>Fantasy is an enjoyment for white, middle glass, adolescent minded hetreo males who fantasize killing fantastic monsters and fucking women

so "Watership Down" is what? autobiography?

You've just taken more than half the major works of fantasy out of the genre. I think all you're really left with is about sixty percent of Sword and Sorcery.

You've eliminated "Little, Big" (most of the main characters are women), Lord of the Rings (Most of the main characters are of widely divergent races), and "Dhalgren" Nobody hetero in there, that I could tell.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 13:10:10 2013 No.3416347 >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hmxc3Arw /thread

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 13:11:26 2013 No.3416348 >>3416344 >"Dhalgren" Nobody hetero in there, that I could tell. Yes but does it have gay interracial fantasy sex? Specifically with the non-human being penetrated by a human? Please tell me yes.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 13:23:19 2013 No.3416367 >>3416338 it would no longer be fantasy, and it wouldn't sell for shit. It would probably die off in to obscurity with a small notion of it being a satirical parody.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 13:26:21 2013 No.3416375 >>3416344 It would be a stretch to call Watership Down fantasy. This whole 'all fiction is fantasy' line is pretty weak. It's pretty clear that fantasy is a specific genre within fiction.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 13:32:55 2013 No.3416387 >>3416319 You would love ASOIAF because it actively subverts all of those fantasy traditions you mentioned.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 13:34:27 2013 No.3416393

>>3416367

And yet, a huge number of the most successful fantasy books have none of these characterisitics. I Think you've expanded Sword and Sorcery to include all fantastic fiction from A.A. Milne to Doris Lessing.

I mean. Pandora by Wolfe, "The Last Unicorn" by Beagle,, you just have to start looking over Best of Fantasy lists and your criteria fall apart. I mean "Heart Readers" is by a world world fantasy award winner and it's about lesbian psychics for god's sake.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 13:35:11 2013 No.3416395

>>3416387

>>3416338
>What if I wrote a fantasy that would deconstruct all of this points?

>>3416367
>it would no longer be fantasy, and it wouldn't sell for shit. It would probably die off in to obscurity with a small notion of it being a satirical parody.

So according to this, ASOIAF is a parody?

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 13:37:58 2013 No.3416403

>>3416344

>Watership Down
showcases anthropomorphised white people. All the animals are presented to have character of bieng white, hick or sophisticated.

>Lord of the Rings
Tolkien mythology is white people mythology. It shows exclusively a spectrum white race breeds. Elves are white, dwarves are white. hobbits are white, even Man is shown white.

>Little, Big
Most of the female characters center around the male protagonist. They are either something the hero to have, or are a knife waiting to find his back.

>Dhalgren
Dhalgren is Science Fiction not Fantasy. Science Fiction as a better history at dealing with social and culture taboos than fantasy. Fantasy has a better history at endorsing naive conservatism than most any other fiction genre.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 13:41:31 2013 No.3416411 File: 236 KB, 216x216, holyshit.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >wasting your life reading imaginary stories >not spending your time absorbing the famed teachings of non-fiction and reference material

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 13:41:46 2013 No.3416412 >>3416375 Watership Down is about talking rabbits. It's fantasy, you insufferable fucking pedant.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 13:43:17 2013 No.3416419

>It would be a stretch to call Watership Down fantasy.

It's about a quest by intelligent, poetry writing, tool using psychic rabbits to find a new home.

Yeah, nothing fantastic about that.

How would it be stretch to call that fantasy?

What would you call it?

Fantasy isn't all Conan the Barbarian and Merlin the Magician. There's also Charlotte's Web and "Rainbow Mars". and now, this isn't calling all fiction fantasy; to be fantasy it needs to contain magical elements as an integral part of its story, not merely as a plot device or substitute for a conventional element, and it needs to take place in a culture where that element has a place. Like "Bell, Book and Candle" or "The Traveller in Black" "Winds of War" wouldn't qualify, nor would Moby Dick. You might make a case for "Atlas Shrugged" I guess..

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 13:44:34 2013 No.3416422 >>3416319 >Fantasy is an enjoyment for white, middle glass, adolescent minded hetreo males who fantasize killing fantastic monsters and fucking women >>>/tumblr/

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 13:44:34 2013 No.3416423 >>3416395 Forgive the rough analogy, but think of ASOIAF's relationship to high fantasy as similar to Watchmen's relationship to the cape comic. It manages to subvert the genre while still functioning within its boundaries.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 13:47:21 2013 No.3416433

>>3416393

If you think a few books that differ from the norm, should stand in as representing the norm, then your ability to call other peoples criteria, 'faulty,' should be questioned. It is natural to have a few works here and there that diverge from the tracts given by the abundance of others, but it should be noted that more often they do so because of what they see wrong with so much of the fantasy genre.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 13:49:23 2013 No.3416439

>>3416403
In watership down the rabbits, with a few exceptions, are clearly brown, and their culture is much, much more similar to african culture, especially their creation myths and cultural heroes, (Ell Hararah)? Than it is to white culture.

Ents, elves, hobbits are much further off the race spectrum from white peopel than any of the current human "races" and their behavior displays this

Dhalgren is in no sense science fiction: name a single science fiction (not science fantasy) element.

Little, Big: WHAT male protagonist? Grandfather Trout? The Old professor? And where are these treacherous women of whom you speak?

Have you even read theses books?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 13:51:08 2013 No.3416447 Why do fantasy conventions always have more rapes and molestations than other genre conventions? It couldn't possibly be because of the kind of people the work panders to, could it?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 13:51:39 2013 No.3416449 >of value FAGGOT i hate it that people like you make me shitpost

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 13:51:54 2013 No.3416452 >>3416447 >rapes at fantasy conventions What? A link to an article on this or something would be nice.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 13:52:10 2013 No.3416457 >>3416447 More girls in attendance? I can't believe that rapes are particularly common at any kind of nerd convention. Do you have an article or something on it?

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 13:59:44 2013 No.3416489

>>3416433
Yeah but when ninety percent of the genre doesnt contain your elements, you have a hard time making it work.

Face it: you're attacking Sword and Sorcery and a few other outlying works. Not Fantasy as a whole.

If you listed the Grand Masters of Fantasy Literature, Dunsany, Morris, Tolkien, CAS, Brackett, Bradbury, Wolfe, you're not going to find many of those kinds of stories in theior catalogs.

You're basically attacking Howard, DeCamp, Carter, Jakes, Kurtz, and Eddison and their imitators. That's nothing like all of fantasy.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 14:01:01 2013 No.3416499 >>3416489 that's a grave disservice to Eddison you're doing there

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 14:12:39 2013 No.3416516

>>3416439

Have you read the books!?!?

Ell Hararah is the quintessential embodiment of the white genterfied Greek Hero. The 'african' you'r seeing is from your racist ignorance. Being brown doesn't automatically make the character African nor Black.

Dhalgren is science fiction. Any time you read something spectacular made plausible with scientific or technological explanation, fictitious or erroneous, you have Science Fiction. The autumnal city of Dhalgren was due to the technological catastrophe of telecommunications signals becoming untransmittable through the atmosphere. That's Sci-Fi.

Smokey Barnable is the anomyous protagonist of this fantasy novel.
What is Little, Big?

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 14:19:13 2013 No.3416539

>>3416489
>Yeah but when ninety percent of the genre doesnt contain your elements

Nope. The majority of fantasy DO have those elements. I can't help the fact that you can't see the forest through the trees. Yes, they are a few detractors. But, those can't be considered the norm because they aren't the dominant abundant kind.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 14:21:14 2013 No.3416550 >>3416452 Google DragonCon and Edward Eliot Kramer

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 14:21:45 2013 No.3416551 >>3416539 99% of anything is shit and generic. We do our best to concern ourselves only with the 1% that's not. Your argument ITT appears to essentially boil down to "Mediocrity is bad, guys."

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 14:23:00 2013 No.3416567 >>3416566 Wasn't he the guy who founded the convention?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 14:23:30 2013 No.3416566 >>3416550 I don't think one instance of a paedophile haunting fantasy conventions justifies your association of all fantasy readers with rapists.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 14:28:05 2013 No.3416597 >>3416567 It still doesn't mean the fantasy readers who attended those conventions were all paedophiles and rapers. Jesus.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 14:29:35 2013 No.3416601 >>3416551 My argument is that the majority of the fantasy genre is written for white hetero young males. Your argument is that the 1% is the 99%, ergo my agrument is invalid "TT: Stop hating what I Like" is what's really going on here

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 14:32:21 2013 No.3416617 >>3416601 >"TT: Stop hating what I Like" is what's really going on here Not really, because no one ITT or on /lit/ in general even seems to read the "majority of the fantasy genre", just the good 1%.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 14:37:10 2013 No.3416644 >>3416617 The only "genre" that /lit/ reads is the "classics", books that are already critically acclaimed.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 14:41:44 2013 No.3416671

>>3416539

That's just not true: when I was a kid, if you said fantasy everybody thought Wizard of Oz, Peter Pan, Wind in the Willows and Arabian Nights. Then I get older and it was all Conan and John Carter and Bradbury. Then it was Lord of the rings and Watership down and Circle of Light, then it all went to Niven and Zelazny and All that social/political stuff like Saint Camber, and Riddle Master of Hed and All those Moorcock books.

And of course in amonst that we had Vance, and Wolfe, and Aspirin and Ford and Cherryh and LeGuin. And, oh, God, Marion Zimmer Bradley.

The newest thing in fantasy seems to be these extended political/social/military things again, sort of like Eddison with a bit of Donaldson thrown in.

There are lots of elements that come up over and over (dragions, elves, quests, magic, talking animals, prophesies) but the common themes seem to have darn little to do with the stuff you're talking about. And if you look at the top selling fantasy novels of just the lasy hundred years, you're unlikely to find your elements even that common, let alone standard.
Hell, just go through the back issues of the Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction, or the winners of the World Fantasy Award. you're just not going to find the stuff youre talking about to be that well represented.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 14:44:01 2013 No.3416681

>>3416601
I'll give you "Hetero" and "Young" . I know a lot more female readers of everything than I do male readers of anything: I think women just read more. White? Hard to say. I suspect there's a bias if only in that most fanatsy writers (with notable exceptions like Octavia Butler) are white.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 14:45:46 2013 No.3416683 >>3416419 >Moby Dick. Moby Dick is definitely fantasy. It's got fateful prophesies, evil wizards, giant sentient sea monsters and a rag-tag group of adventurers (of different races!) questing for glory and loot. Read it again.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 14:49:50 2013 No.3416698 >>3416671 The irony of your post is that every thing you listed has at least one of the 3 elements given.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 14:50:05 2013 No.3416705 >>3416683 I consider it a treatise on the whale, and the Whaling industry and shipboard life, with a few vignettes thrown in for colour.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 14:52:36 2013 No.3416713 >>3416698 sure, but one or two elements don't make a genre. if they did, then you'd be right back with all fiction being fantasy again.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 14:56:24 2013 No.3416730 what dumb thing do you do to pass time?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 14:57:56 2013 No.3416741 >>3416705 > I consider it a treatise on the whale, and the Whaling industry and shipboard life Actually, at least half of all that stuff in the book is carefully cloaked fantasy, too.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:00:44 2013 No.3416758 >>3416713 The three elements don't make the genre, the three elements are what is common with genre. If all the things you listed are considered fantasy, then they must have at least one of the qualities listed >>3416319

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:03:16 2013 No.3416769

Let's try this: Here is the contens of the Fantasy Hall Of Fame. It's a collection of some of the best fantasy stories by some of the best fantasy authors. I've read about three-fourths of them.

Trouble with Water - H. L. Gold
Nothing in the Rules - L. Sprague de Camp
Fruit of Knowledge - C. L. Moore
Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius - Jorge Luis Borges
The Compleat Werewolf - Anthony Boucher
The Small Assassin - Ray Bradbury
The Lottery - Shirley Jackson
Our Fair City - Robert A. Heinlein
There Shall Be No Darkness - James Blish
The Loom of Darkness - Jack Vance
The Man Who Sold Rope to the Gnoles - Margaret St. Clair
The Silken-Swift - Theodore Sturgeon
The Golem - Avram Davidson
Operation Afreet - Poul Anderson
That Hell-Bound Train - Robert Bloch
The Bazaar of the Bizarre - Fritz Leiber
Come Lady Death - Peter S. Beagle
The Drowned Giant - J. G. Ballard
Narrow Valley - R. A. Lafferty
Faith of Our Fathers - Philip K. Dick
The Ghost of a Model T - Clifford D. Simak
The Demoness - Tanith Lee
Jeffty Is Five - Harlan Ellison
The Detective of Dreams - Gene Wolfe
Unicorn Variations - Roger Zelazny
Basileus - Robert Silverberg
The Jaguar Hunter - Lucius Shepard
Buffalo Gals, Won't You Come Out Tonight - Ursula K. Le Guin
Bears Discover Fire - Terry Bisson
Tower of Babylon - Ted Chiang

can you find among them ANY story that coforms to your "Fantasy is an enjoyment for white, middle glass, adolescent minded hetreo males who fantasize killing fantastic monsters and fucking women" statement? or indeed, find an anthology that's not strictly sword and sorcery where those sorts of stories are even a significant minority.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:12:22 2013 No.3416798 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldantasy_Award_for_Best_Novel that's the page of best novel nominees and winners. same question as above.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:17:25 2013 No.3416821

>>3416769

Rather, try this: make a list of all the fantasy stories that DON'T have at least one of those elements of pandering and compare them to all the fantasy stories that DO have at least one of those pandering qualities.

(Or at least provide a copy of all the works you think counter the 3 qualities of pandering, for examination.)

Which list of the two do you think would be shorter? Finding a rag-tag grouping of stories doesn't stand in as the whole.

The majority of fantasy literature is written for white hetreo young males, they are the demographic fantasy literature panders to.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:20:57 2013 No.3416834 >>3416821 How do you distinguish 'pandering' from simply featuring white/hetero/male characters? Did Joyce 'pander' to young white hetero Irish males?

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:24:00 2013 No.3416849

>>3416821
I gotta call bullshit again.

I mean, I didn't cherry-pick those stories: And if you go through any other anthology ANY other anthology or list that's not specifically geared to Sword and Sorcery, you're going to find the same kind of thing.

I think your quarrel is with that subgenre, or maybe adventure fiction.

The works on those list represent not just some of what was considered the best, but also some of the most popular fantasy fiction of their periods.

On the first list, I'm going to say of the ones I ve read, which is all but about six of them, only the Vance has any of the elements you list, and Lianne the Wayfarer is certainly not the hero, and comes to a very bad end as well.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:29:04 2013 No.3416859 >>3416769 Calling the Ballard story fantasy is bullshit

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:30:04 2013 No.3416863 >>3416859 how so?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:30:18 2013 No.3416860 >Finding a rag-tag grouping words fail. some of these stories are some of the best-known stories, and certainly authors, in the genre.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:31:35 2013 No.3416865 >>3416863 If you can't tell there's no point in even speaking to you

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:33:35 2013 No.3416872

>>3416865
http://cs5824.userapi.com/u1172833docs/8da7ca65f287/Ballard_J_G_Balrd_J_G_Drowned_Giant_193923.pdf

here's the story. I can't see how a giant's body washing up on a beach doesn't qualify as fantasy. That happen a lot where you come from? How would you classify it?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:34:36 2013 No.3416877 >>3416865 nice cop out, fag i have to say that pretentious elitists have had their asses kicked by fantasyfags in this thread.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:35:52 2013 No.3416881 >>3416872 Don't worry, he's just ashamed to admit he likes a fantasy story because it'll decrease his /lit/-cred.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:35:52 2013 No.3416884 >>3415428 >I cannot imagine a bigger waste of time. What about videogames?

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:36:52 2013 No.3416893

>>3416834
You misunderstand.

The 3 escapisms are not what's actually in the fantasy stories, they are the tendencies Fantasy writes to. It's not that almost every fantasy genre story has a white hetero young male, it is that almost every fantasy genre story is written so as to entertain a white hetero young male.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:38:09 2013 No.3416903 >WHY DO PEOPLE READ THINGS THEY ENJOY

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:39:39 2013 No.3416910 >>3416893 How do you tell?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:41:41 2013 No.3416918 >>3415520 cant that be said for every genre or type of media?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:43:58 2013 No.3416923 >>3416893 Good to see we have an expert on every fantasy author's authorial intent, here.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:50:02 2013 No.3416944

>>3416849

The only bullshit here is the person trying to re-categorize the genres so that it appears as if the minority of work is the de facto norm.

Even in the case of you presenting a select grouping of award winning fantasies stories, you're only present a diverging group. Those stories weren't awarded because they were like every other fantasy story, those works are awarded because they were divergent from the norm. And probably got their awarding because they challenged the implicit ideologies of the dominant white-hetero-young-male reading demographic

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:51:03 2013 No.3416948 >>3415886 > Rand I agree that e/lit/ists are too judgemental, but agreeing with Rand doesn't make you a pleb; it makes you a fool. If you've read Rand, you know why.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:52:18 2013 No.3416949

>>3416893

>every fantasy genre story is written so as to entertain a white hetero young male

I'll give you that, as long as you don't mean to imply"exclusively" or even predominantly.
and if you include the first five decades of life under "young", and change "white" to western.

I still think most fantasy readers are girls though.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:55:06 2013 No.3416960 >>3415890 Science fiction cannot be compared to fantasy. While there are some good fantasy novels, these are rare. Good science fiction is common.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:55:35 2013 No.3416959 >>3416923 I wouldn't take an expert to realize that Harry Potter wouldn't be as popular as it is today, if the protagonist had been a black child

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:56:51 2013 No.3416964 >>3416959 No, but it would likely be more respected.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:58:22 2013 No.3416970 >>3415903 Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 15:59:53 2013 No.3416973
File: 72 KB, 757x451, tumblr_m12x4fZ8VX1qhasjpo1_1280.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Reading fantasy, or any genre that forces the mind to expand it's imagination, are worth reading because they effectively exercise the mind. If one were to only read things that have an educational value, such as a textbook, or a manual, is not effectively giving their mind a good workout. Sure they learn rigid, fixed information, but they do not stretch the limits of their own mind, thus resulting in a less diverse, and less able mind. So, as we can see from that, reading fantasy/sci fi novels is not a waste of time, it is in fact a good use of time, much like working out. It is mentally enriching, and perfectly healthy.

Therefore OP, kindly cram your ignorant head up your ass, and stop wasting our time in answering your silly questions,

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 16:02:56 2013 No.3416987 >>3416964 The world is still too racist to respect a black harry potter

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 16:06:26 2013 No.3416998 >>3416254 This post gave my cancers cancer cancer. > Marxism is so 20th century > implying ideologies go in and out of style

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 16:08:26 2013 No.3417004

>>3415428
Stop being so fucking elitist, nobody cares that you don't like science fiction and the fact that you are angry at other people for enjoying it is fucking retarded. You're obviously just attempting to justify your opinions through /lit/s agreeement. Just accept it, you're a pretentious asshat if you won't let others enjoy it. They might be 'lower art forms' but not everyone wants to spend their time reading Joyce because it is fucking hard work. Just accept that other people might read to relax, not to acquire status on the internet.

>OP is a huge faggot

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 16:11:26 2013 No.3417017 All reading is worthless, save for the pleasure it gives the reader. And fantasy gives fantasy readers pleasure, and is therefore worthwhile.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 16:11:26 2013 No.3417018 This thread has slightly (very slightly) restored my faith in /lit/. Good show, guys.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 16:12:27 2013 No.3417026 >>3416987 I'm talking about on a critical/cult level. It would get more favorable reviews among people who want to seem cultured. They'd write about black despair expressed as black magic or some bullshit.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 16:17:26 2013 No.3417043

>>3416944
Man. you read a lot into awards.

I mean maybe the Miss America contest rewards those who challenge the conventions of beauty, or the grammys always choose independant rule-breakers or the superbowl winners are those that flout the normal standards of play....but you can't generalize like that.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 16:23:27 2013 No.3417057
File: 190 KB, 600x846, angel-exterminatus.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I own over a hundred Warhammer 40k novels and I have read all of them. I am currently reading pic related, the 24th in a series on the Horus Heresy.

I read this soap opera for nerds because I enjoy the setting, and I enjoy reading. Some books are shit, but some are quite entertaining.

I am curious to see what books I should be reading instead of this shovel ware fiction? I would also like to ask the OP why WOULDN'T you want to read books that all can, at least loosely, tie together?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 16:24:27 2013 No.3417062 File: 52 KB, 750x563, 1352724736535.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3416960 Do you actually believe that there is more good Sci-Fi than Fantasy? Do you honestly believe that they have no overlap? Holy shit if you do.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 16:31:26 2013 No.3417102 File: 152 KB, 438x420, 1347496899011.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] OP, why did you watch The Big Lebowski? It's just fiction...

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 16:32:26 2013 No.3417103

>>3417043
>but you can't generalize like that.

Yes I can, open any fantasy anthology of the 'award winning' stories and look at the introduction. You'll most likely find the editors selected the works because of some unique or interesting quality they possess, NOT because they're mediocre.

Being awarded #1 to any contest isn't because you're exactly like everyone else, you'd be stupid to generalize the contest of awarding like that.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 16:43:26 2013 No.3417156

Yeah, I agree with OP. Superficial things, such as a setting, are sure to make or break a book. That's just how the world works, you know. It ain't literature if it doesnt happen in a highly mimetic world that remind me of the real one strongly enough. I can't enjoy a book if it has goofy street names or such nonsense. I mean, literature that's not true is complete hippie garbage to me. I was devastated when I found out that most so called "fictional" books keep lying to me by having things happen that never really did: some of them even have completely made up people in them. It made me so mad that I started sending poignantly worded letters to publishers. I hope they listen to me, or I'll have to resort to this thing I heard about called "irony", which, as far as I underestand, means that I'll be beating the with an ironing board.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 16:55:27 2013 No.3417213 File: 722 KB, 1210x734, 1251141257556.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3417057 Not sure if sci-fi with heavy fantasy elements or dark fantasy in a sci-fi setting.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 17:00:27 2013 No.3417240 >>3415428 >said OP as he put his time to good use, browsing 4chan rather than reading something of value

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 17:07:27 2013 No.3417259

I don't read shitty, decades long series like Wheel of Time or Sword of Shanarra, first off. I like fantasy because it's, bare with me here. . . fun. Scott Lynch's two Ocean's Eleven-esque books are two of the funnest books I've ever read. The First Law Trilogy and even ASoIF are epic. It's all about the author shaping a new world through actions, characters, and exposition. And tell me some greedy, blood-thirsty bastard like Conan or Logen Ninefingers isn't cool as fuck. It's fun; it's escapism.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 17:12:27 2013 No.3417292 It's entertaining, that's all. I am capable of recognizing when I'm reading shit, though (I stopped WoT after the 4th book, perhaps a little late).

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 17:18:27 2013 No.3417324 >>3417259 You're not missing anything by not reading the Shannara books. I've read like...8 of them. It's not god-awful, but...had I not started them already, I'd not be reading them.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 17:22:27 2013 No.3417344 >doing anything that isn't productive plebs

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 17:33:06 2013 No.3417405 >>3417324 My dad's been trying to get to read them for years now. It's just the same as WoT: trite shit ripped off from a overrated author named Tolkien .

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 17:33:22 2013 No.3417407

>>3417062
A) Fuck, yeah!
B) Of course not! I don't think a book can be completely confined to one genre without being writen with the genre in mind. There's a great deal of overlap between science fiction and fantasy, and it produces some of the best and worst of either genre. Science fiction is just generally better since it is more believable and diverse. I'm not gonna say there's no diversity within fantasy, but it's more pronounced in science fiction. I read mainly skiffy, but I do also read some fantasy. I've read some God-awful fantasy, but I've never read a truly terrible skiffy book.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 17:38:10 2013 No.3417429

>>3417405
The most interesting thing about them is the fact that it's a post-apocalyptic fantasy world. The only two that I've read thus far that really stood out to me were Wishsong of Shannara (which I would actually recommend, as it's basically a stand-alone book) and The Druid of Shannara.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 17:43:10 2013 No.3417455

>>3417103
That's sort of my point though. They're not mediocre, so they win. And The fact that the excellent ones are so different from each other is one of the defining strengths of fantasy:

No, You wouldn't expect the mediocre to be the one that wins the awards, or the average. You would expect the more popular works to win, and that indeed is usually the case: the winners of the world fantasy award, and certainly the nominees, are often in the bestseller category.

The fact that they're different also plays to my point in that the best, the most popular, and the most singled-out for whatever reason usually don't conform to the small minority of stuff you seem to think is "mainstream" fantasy.

Sword and Sorcery is certainly a visible and popular subgenre., but it is far far from being the most popular or the most "defining" of the genre of fantasy.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 17:44:11 2013 No.3417462 >>3417455 What the fuck? Award winners are the fucking best of any category, hence the fucking award. You're making a non-point here. Shut up, holy shit.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 17:45:11 2013 No.3417464 >>3417407 Have you read any of Terry Pratchett's Discworld series?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 17:46:11 2013 No.3417469 >>3417462 That WAS My point. That you don't expect the mediocre average works to win awards. But the most popular and best ones, the ones that exemplify the best aspects of the genre.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 18:12:11 2013 No.3417595

>>3417455
>defining strengths of fantasy

There are general two types of award winning fantasy anthologies:

1. those which are awarded by criteria of sales or market buzz

2. those that stand apart from the norm, and are critically underrepresented

Stories from 1 fit the pandering qualities easily, THEY exemplify the dominate strengths of fantasy. While stories from 2 are often applauded for challenging those pandering 'strengths' that corrupt most of fantasy. Which is why they're often selected.

Just being different to mean it's the best is a stupid point to make, it doesn't take into consideration of how and why a book's difference is important. It just equates difference with better.

Show me a fantasy story that is critically esteemed to uniquely exemplify all the 'strengths' of the fantasy genre, and I'll show you story well suited to pander to white hetero young males

Again, that small group of books from group 2 does not stand as the dominate selling and dominate marketed kind of fantasy stories. Most of the fantasy works aggressively published cater exclusively and predominantly to white hetero young males.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 18:35:11 2013 No.3417665 >>3417464 No, It sounds interesting, but there's something I just can't stand about his writing.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 18:38:11 2013 No.3417672

>>3417595
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/duadta/adta03.htm

This is an example of one of the short stories that exemplify the strengths of fantasy that is in the public domain, so It seems like a good choice. Both Carter and LeGuin reference it their books on how to write good fantasy.

As far as "Market Buzz" you have to remember that the market has shifted a lot since Farnsworth Wrights day, and shifted back.

In the seventies the main fantasy subgenre that was selling was various stripes of horror fantasy, for instance, and in the sixties as well, the Tolkien high fantasy and the Arthurian stuff was what you saw most of. In the thrities forties and fifties, most of the fantasy that generated any buzz at all was humorous stuff, like throne smith.

These days we seem about evenly split in terms of buzz between sword and sorcery type stuff, like goodkind and paolini and Martin, and more traditional fantasy, like Harry Potter, Strange and Norrell, Lord of the Rings and that sort of thing.

This doesn't mean that Wolfe and Vance and Lovecraft have lost popularity, or that nobody reads "Greenwillow" or Topper, or Bellairs's stuff. In fact if you threw out all of Jordan, Martin, Donaldson, Goodkind, Paolini and their imitators, as well as all the game-inspired S&S stuff, you'd still have most fantasy left. easily 99% of it, and all of the good, readable stuff.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 18:39:11 2013 No.3417673

>>3417672
My primary objection to your position is you're equating the most diverse genre in literature and one of the oldest and most respected, with one tiny garish element of it's gigantic repertoire and trying to condemn the whole on that basis.

Again, don't get me to far the wrong way on that either: I do regard "Red Nails" Two Sought Adventure" Cugel the Clever and Rhialto the Marvellous"" The Wizard Knight" "Jirel of Joiry" and "The inCompleat Enchanter as lights of the genre, and they all have at least a couple of the elements you disparage. A book can be excellent despite conforming to your negative stereotypes apparently.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 18:54:11 2013 No.3417718 i´m looking for some books/storys with similiar characters like arya stark. girl go´s through hard times and starts killing and stealing. any suggestions?

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 19:03:11 2013 No.3417737

Why the fuck do people read fiction books? I cannot imagine a bigger waste of time.

>mfw I found out there are fiction series that have been going on for decades with tens of books and thousands and thousands of pages

Why waste all that time reading what is basically made up bullshit that never even happened, when you could put it to good use and reading something of value?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 19:12:12 2013 No.3417766 >>3415510 >The characters are also usually one-dimensional and unrealisitc such as those in LOTR >I WATCHED THE MOVIES AND COULDN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS GOING ON SO THE BOOKS MUST REALLY SUCK

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 19:17:11 2013 No.3417783

>>3417672

A dreamer's tale is about the objectification of a woman, it even has white men as king arguing over judgment over her. Not only is this written for white hetero young males it caters well to the christian ideals that a woman should be subjugated to the terms of romance prescribed by males.

The fantasy genre in the English language, has a very long history of writing to flatter the positions of their reader:

the hero is young and virile ready for some kind of consummation

the women are pure and placed purposely

magic is a divine extension of the stated qualities of the hero and the women

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 19:50:11 2013 No.3417932

>>3417783
Um, so what? The same could be said of Hamlet. Which, i distantly recall, also contained supernatural elements.

I'm willing to admit that most fantasy is the work of, and for the use of, white, heterosexual privileged males, as long as you don't try to differentiate that from most literature, most automobiles and Most ice cream.

You're the one who objected that someone was calling all literature fantasy literature, but you're describing fantasy in terms that could easily describe most literature. and I'm pretty sure there are just as many non-white authors in fantasy as there are in mainstream literature. Stuff is big in Africa and Asia for instance.

as for the point you brought up about
>Fantasy is an enjoyment for white, middle glass, adolescent minded hetreo males who fantasize killing fantastic monsters and fucking women

I'll even accept that as long as you're willing to add the clause "as well as everybody else, and indeed most fantasy doesn't actually contain those things"

This is essentially where we disagree. You keep saying things like >>3417783

and the same thing could be said of a hell of a lot of historical fiction, historical fact, contemporary fiction and any mainstream literature of the western world pre nineteenth century

If you've got a hard-on for the patriarchal chauvinism common in western literature, fine. Fantasy is happy to supply you with Conan, King Arthur and Thrang the Ghoul-bear. But You have to own up to Mr, Darcy, Trampus, and every vicious baronet and dissipated poet in Victorian literature.

I think the problem here is you just haven't read a lot of fantasy. You bumped into Martin's maunderings and Jordan's God-awfulness and stilted cardboard of the dragonlance crap and didn't realize that that's not even the tiniest tip of a truly diverse and wonderful genre.

And don't keep trying to tar it with the same brush that has been used on all genres from westerns to romance to drawing room farce.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 20:39:12 2013 No.3418097

>>3417932
>You're the one who objected that someone was calling all literature fantasy literature,

Nope.

The question was why read fantasy, I laid out 3 common reasons why (escapisms). The majority of the fantasy genre caters to white hetero young males. It may have a few precious gems but that doesn't change the facts about the dominant form of the fantasy genre.

In its broadest stroke the Fantasy genre is an enjoyment for white, middle glass, adolescent minded hetero males who fantasize killing fantastic monsters and fucking virgin women.

You can read the fuck out fantasy all you want, there is no problem there, but it still won't change why the genre is popular with white hetero young males-- it fulfills urges

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 20:55:11 2013 No.3418146

>>3415510
I hadn't thought of the characters in LoTR being flat and one-dimensional. I initially thought you were an idiot. But then I thought about it for a second, and they totally are.

What if Gandalf had to pull Shadowfax over on occasion to bump a little cocaine? What if Aragorn struggled with self-confidence issues? What if Sam was a closeted homosexual? That's the book I want to read.

Fantasy protagonists don't seem to struggle with heroin addictions or existential crises. They tend to embody the best characteristics of mankind. This is why fantasy is crap.

But, then again, I don't read the garbage, so I wouldn't know.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 20:55:11 2013 No.3418148 This thread should have had no replies save for sages.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 20:59:11 2013 No.3418159 >>3418146 That was entirely Tolkien's intention, he was simply making a cookie-cutter epic. It was so very generic that it almost completely transcended itself into a great classic. Almost.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 21:23:12 2013 No.3418246

I hate sci-fi but i almost exclusevly read only fantasy novels. To say they are all the same is absolute rubbish. As far as i am concerned theres no reason to read anything other than fantasy. What is the point? The reason i dont read sci fi is because i prefer to read physics books and just let my imagination run wild with some of the more obscure concepts.

Authors like;
David Gemmel
Raymond E Feist
Robert Jordan
Robbin Hobb
David Eddings

Incorporate so much more than swords and magic into their work and unless you are a brain dead retard who cant follow subtle underlays would realise that these fantasy novels include far more educational literature than your Hipster crap.

Fesit and Gemmel (who are my two favourite authors) have as much philosophy (and over as many areas) as most modern philosophy books published across their works. Their are also interesting things like strategy, scientific theory, and other non virgin neckbeard topics. Primarily i like them because i have old school values, people these days are whining little bitches who expect to have the whole world on a plate and cry at the first little bit of trouble. Its nice to be able to come home and read and pretend that people arent afraid of responsibility and hard work.

Ive tried reading crime novels or thrillers or any other form of book and they just bore me they are too everyday and mundane.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 21:26:12 2013 No.3418262
File: 121 KB, 900x785, tolkien_daydreams_by_lueb_art-d4w8wbt.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Fantasy as a genre has been misconstrued, along with it's fans. People see it as children's literature or books for slow adults, which it most definitely isn't. People don't look at the philosophical concepts behind a lot of fantasy novels, they just automatically "bash" it because it doesn't have a name like Dickens, Dostoevsky, Orwell or Wilde. Just because it isn't a classic piece of literature or a text book doesn't make it a waste a time. And if you only read because it makes you look smarter then you have some insecurity issues.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 21:30:12 2013 No.3418274 >>3418159 That's quite an assumption. Seeing as how fantasy hadn't even really taken off yet, I'd argue that his intentions were not to create generic characters, but rather his characters become the embodiment of generic.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 21:31:11 2013 No.3418278 >>3418262 agree. Fantasy is not just Harry Potter and LoTR. Its the best genre IMO because it allows for the inclusion of many philisophical concepts without ruining the story.

>>	sage sage Wed Jan 30 21:34:11 2013 No.3418289 >>3415428 life has no meaning or purpose, just a reminder

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 21:37:11 2013 No.3418298

>>3418159
Not his intention at all. Tolkien used the universal concept of good and evil, yes, but he didn't want what you call a "cookie cutter" epic. He did however want an extremely long descriptive narrative. He reincarnated the medieval saga which was lost, and created an entire mythos. Not to mention two Elvish dialects and some others for his races.

Anonymous Wed Jan 30 21:40:21 2013 No.3418314

>>3418278
Even LOTR has some concepts of philosophy, and even some allegorical concepts(To Tolkien's dismay) but it's been thrown in with mass culture and the fanboy neckbeard society.

Tolkien in my opinion was brilliant, and doesn't have half of the credit he deserves. Just know for LOTR when their is an entire universe created and in need of exploration.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 30 22:00:59 2013 No.3418372 File: 28 KB, 320x240, Diffrentstrokes_logo.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3415428 Now, the world don't move to the beat of just one drum, What might be right for you, may not be right for some.

Anonymous Thu Jan 31 08:04:12 2013 No.3419662

>>3418097
> Another thing that confuses me here is your insistence on "Middle class" . I would have thought you try to establish fantasy as the province of the working classes instead. I mean the beer drinking cloth cap chavvy sort seems more like what you seem to think characterize the fantasy fan than the port-and-sherry public school set. Though since there seems to be a lot of oxbridge in the writers camp I can sort of see it...

Advanced search
Text to find
Subject [?]Search by post subject. Leave empty for any.
Username [?]Search for user name. Leave empty for any user name.
Tripcode [?]Search for tripcode. Leave empty for any.
Email [?]Search by email. Leave empty for any.
Filename [?]Search by image filename. Leave empty for any.
From Date [?]Enter what date to start searching from. Format is YYYY-MM-DD
To Date [?]Enter what date to start searching until. Format is YYYY-MM-DD
Image hash
Search in	All Posts OPs Only
Deleted posts	Show all posts Show only deleted posts Only show non-deleted posts
Internal posts	Show all posts Show only internal posts Show only archived posts
Order	New posts first Old posts first
Capcode	All Posts Only by Users Only by Mods Only by Admins Only by Developers
Results	Posts Threads
Action	[ Simple ]