does having a bleak outlook on life make you a smart person?

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Anonymous Sun May 5 20:46:24 2013 No.3727159 [Reply] [Original]

does having a bleak outlook on life make you a smart person?

>>	[h]ombre Sun May 5 20:48:24 2013 No.3727161 no, don't reverse causality. being a smart person often leads to a bleak outlook.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 5 20:56:23 2013 No.3727181 inb4 Plato's Republic

>>	Anonymous Sun May 5 21:07:23 2013 No.3727207 >>3727159 Personally I think blind pessimism is just as bad as blind optimism. A smart person would be justified in their beliefs in that they would recognise whether they had negative or positive prospects.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 5 21:10:24 2013 No.3727218 Smart as it stem smart? Or lit. well-read, rounded smart? Are you also accounting for emotional intellgence?

>>	Anonymous Sun May 5 22:19:23 2013 No.3727440 "[A]ll things should be seen exactly as they are, and to underestimate... is as much a departure from truth as to exaggerate..."

>>	Anonymous Sun May 5 22:25:23 2013 No.3727474 Your outlook is emotion + intelligence. Sometimes people with bleak outlooks just have piss-poor control over their emotions.

Anonymous Sun May 5 22:30:23 2013 No.3727490

>>3727207
A lot of moderate outlooks in life come from a cushioned upbringing due to exceptional wealth of first world countries. I grew up in eastern europe in the 90s when my 11 years old friends were breaking in cars to steal to buy heroin.
That's how the majority of the world still is, don't come tell me that life is good when you have lived you whole life between a suburb and a college campus and back to the suburb.

One thing that particularly scares me about today is how difficult it has become to people to deal or even imagine total loss. That is pain that won't heal, pain that breaks you for a life time. The insistence that everything can be mended, you can get over everything, time cures all. But it does not, and I talk about it to others and they stare at me as if they have not even heard of something like that outside of movies.

Anonymous Sun May 5 22:37:23 2013 No.3727523

>>3727490
On the other, I met death-camp survivors who were smiling and laughing while telling some of their camp experience. Why ? How ? I can't tell for sure, but having survived it and having been alive for the sixty years following it might have something to do with it.
"Time cures all" is a silly generalization (except if you think that death is a cure). But the ability of human beings to endure pain and loss and survive it is quite baffling to the sheltered individual I am. I guess people around you must be stupid. Even the most privileged westerner can come accross pretty mundane and yet life-breaking experience (think losing two children in a car accident). Everyone above 13 has heard of that.

Now, I can admit that living in poverty our whole and being wealthy but having to survive a terrible tragedy are two entirely different things.

Anonymous Sun May 5 22:45:23 2013 No.3727566

>>3727490
I agree. I've seen a shittier side of life growing up around the middle/lower-class in the United States; I've seen people choose their addictions over raising their only child when they were given a second chance, families ruined by homicide. Things that leave psychological scars in you for life. I hate hearing many intellectuals, or more specifically futurists like Kaku and Clarke, talking about mankind's destiny to the stars, we're gonna terraform distant planets, within 200 years we will have the power of what we define now as gods, etc. They haven't seen the true state of things with broken women 7-months pregnant fellating strangers to feed their addictions.
And my neighborhood wasn't even THAT bad.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 5 22:47:23 2013 No.3727570 It can make you a prepared person. But a smart person is someone who realizes the bleakness of reality and still finds a way to be happy in it.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 5 22:51:23 2013 No.3727586 Not necessarily. I would not be surprised, though, if there was a correlation between higher intelligence and holding a bleak outlook.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 5 22:51:23 2013 No.3727587 >>3727490 Only weak people submit to addiction.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 5 22:52:23 2013 No.3727588 >>3727523 Still Primo Levi killed himself and the concept of god after auschwitz has been problematic. You can still laugh, that doesn't make it any less bleak.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 5 22:52:23 2013 No.3727590 >>3727587 I think we agree that 11 year olds are generally weak people.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 5 22:53:23 2013 No.3727593 >>3727586 There is not. But there is a correlation between depression and a correct perception of reality. That is: depressed people tend to assess situation in a much more correct way than non-depressed.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 5 22:56:23 2013 No.3727600 What's a bleak outlook on life to you? Sometimes the perspective that seems bleak, miserable, or cruel superficially is realistically a harsh optimism, an optimism that demands works instead of merely wishing for happy endings.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 5 22:56:23 2013 No.3727605 >>3727588 The concept of God has been problematic for a few hundred years now.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 5 22:58:23 2013 No.3727607 >>3727605 yeah I know. but when even extremely religious people, like rabbis, start thinking that maybe god is not omnipotent that's big.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 5 22:59:23 2013 No.3727608 >>3727588 >the concept of god after auschwitz lel

>>	Anonymous Sun May 5 23:00:23 2013 No.3727610 >>3727588 >auschwitz >real event oh my

>>	Anonymous Sun May 5 23:05:23 2013 No.3727625 Tend to your goddamn gardens.

Anonymous Sun May 5 23:07:23 2013 No.3727636

>>3727593
Depression significantly inhibits key portions of the brain related to perception and judgment. A few studies have shown that people with major depressive disorder are better at realistically assessing things like their own skill sets or abilities, but depression drastically affects their ability to assess these in larger contexts:
"So what if I'm good at ----, I'll never be good enough to ----"
"Yes, but it's still a valuable skill, and it could be used to---"
"But then I couldn't---- and anyway other people----"
and so on.

The correlation you're talking about is tears dropped into an ocean of evidence that depression cripples the cognitive development and behavioral adjustments necessary for what people might mean when they say things like "correct perception of reality."

>>	Anonymous Sun May 5 23:09:23 2013 No.3727643 >>3727610 I know. There are even people who still think Jews are real. Not kidding.

Anonymous Sun May 5 23:11:23 2013 No.3727650

>>3727636
You are correct. But I would still argue that they are right in the assessment of the larger contests.
The argument of the depressed person seems wrong from what is generally meant for "correct perception of reality" because most people are not depressed and don't correct perceive reality.

Take for example that most non-depressed people still feel that their life is meaningful when it is pretty much a factual reality that existence is meaningless. Only shortsightedness can make you think that you are living a meaningful life.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 5 23:14:23 2013 No.3727661 File: 73 KB, 524x468, 1366815961983.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3727643 >tfw reading chapterhouse: dune, set 25,000 or so years in the future, and there are still jews

Anonymous Sun May 5 23:17:23 2013 No.3727669

>>3727650
There are some pretty big assumptions in here chief.

Our existence might be meaningless sub specie aeternitatis, but that does not mean that it is meaningless in the context of say ... the planet earth, on which we live.

The meaning of our lives is something we must create for ourselves, and through pursuing this meaning we find happiness.

Paradoxically a large part of the meaning of my life is the pursuit of happiness.

Anonymous Sun May 5 23:28:23 2013 No.3727704

>>3727650
>But I would still argue that they are right in the assessment of the larger contests.
And I'd ask what you have to support your claim, because an overwhelming majority of research into major depressive disorder disagrees with you: depression is characterized by an inability to properly contextualize value judgments.

>The argument of the depressed person seems wrong from what is generally meant for "correct perception of reality" because most people are not depressed and don't correct perceive reality.
I understand that you're pointing out a supposed flaw of circular reasoning to my point before by insisting on your own circular reasoning (at least I hope that's what you're doing), but I'll clear that up in a minute.

>it is pretty much a factual reality that existence is meaningless.
... uh, what? That's nowhere near factual, that's a value judgment. Depression is also characterized by a lack of perception which treats value judgments as axiomatic. I think you might be depressed, friend.

You're digressing and going way out of bounds with this point anyhow, I'm not talking about experiencing depression the emotion (and neither are the studies you've wiki'd or read about on msn.com) as the result of obviously depressing stimuli. I'm talking about a pervasive psychological disorder that makes people irrationally quit their jobs (because of the "larger context" that jobs are meaningless? That's a piss-poor assessment of priorities), lie to friends and family, ignore or disengage from all social behavior and obligations, and kill themselves.
You brought up the terminology of "correct perception of reality," originally anyhow, and I'd disagree with its use at all. We can talk about behavior because it is the result of perception, or we can talk about the neurological concept of perception/judgment in those terms, but you tacking on this "correct" concept is a loaded die: you can toss it any way you want and make it look like you've got the better points.

Anonymous Sun May 5 23:31:23 2013 No.3727712

>>3727669
That is a good motivational speech but meaning cannot be created. Meaning is or is not.

There is three types of meaning:

1) Linguistic meaning. As what does this "word"
mean. You don't create that meaning as it's the community who decides it. Even when you invent a neologism it has to be accepted by a community no matter how small.

2) Meaning as significance. This is "x is important because y is important" like in "having a good job is significant because it provides for my family who is important to me". But this begs the question "why is y important?" In fact in antiquity this sort of question was solved by saying "because god wants it". Naturally you cannot invent god without fooling yourself into forgetting that you created that idol.

3) Meaning as sense, that is direction. An event is meaningful because it pushes forward towards the goal, it fulfills the plan. But if there is no plan there you cannot invent. If nature is meaningless and you insist in finding meaning in the single meaningless events of your life you are no different than the paranoid trying to uncover a government plan from the secret events of his life. After all what does the paranoid do? He invents meaning where there is no meaning.

Meaning is a quality that depends on a bigger structure. Especially on an ordered structure of the universe. If there is no such structure humans cannot invent it. No more than they can give meaning to the weather patterns in the pacific north-west.What's the meaning of a storm occuring February 17? None. Why there was hail on November 2nd? No reason. Try to give meaning to that and you will at best get some sappy stuff like "Well I couldn't go to the job interview because it was snowing, I guess it was not meant to be and that the universe has other plans for me".

Just silly if you ask me.

Anonymous Sun May 5 23:36:28 2013 No.3727731

>>3727704
Don't get me wrong I do agree that there is a psychiatrical disorder called depression that is purely based on biological reason, and that certainly does cloud your judgment.

The problem is that withing that diagnosis often are grouped also people that have a particular bleak outlook on the world.
I believe that there are very good reasons for people to quit their job and kill themselves once they come to certain realizations or believes. I think that killing yourself, abandoning your family, quitting your job can be very rational decisions and often are swept under the carpet as caused by depression.
I believe saying that those people don't have a clear view of reality because it does not fit what we believe is the accurate clear view is not a strong argument.

Anonymous Sun May 5 23:50:28 2013 No.3727781

>>3727731
>I believe saying that those people don't have a clear view of reality because it does not fit what we believe is the accurate clear view is not a strong argument.
But you're making the same claim backwards with:
>I believe that there are very good reasons for people to quit their job and kill themselves once they come to certain realizations or believes

>I understand that you're pointing out a supposed flaw of circular reasoning to my point before by insisting on your own circular reasoning
You're saying that they have this "correct" perception because they do these things, I could be saying (but I'm not) they don't have a correct perception because they do these things.
What I'm actually saying is that the evidence of depressive behavior doesn't support this idea of correctness at all. Depression is neither correct nor incorrect perception: if I say I'm pretty good at working with my hands but I'll never be a professional carpenter so I should chop off my thumbs, my perception of my abilities in woodworking is sound, but my value judgments and my assessment of the context is flawed. If I actually chop off my hands, we're getting into behavior, and the behavior is a clear indication of neurological problems.
Depressive behavior is /inconsistent/ with a depressive person's assessments and value judgments. Their perception is apparently flawed because their behavior does not match their value judgments.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 5 23:52:23 2013 No.3727789 a clear indication of psychological problems*

Anonymous Sun May 5 23:55:23 2013 No.3727798

>>3727781
The fact I'm pointing out is that I'm not sure of the standards by which you prove the correct judgment of the "grand scheme".

That's because usually the parameter that they use to decide whether your "grand scheme" beliefs are correct or not is whether your believes permit you to be a functional member of society or not.

If it's not this please explain to me what other parameter they would use. Because that's not a good one.

Anonymous Sun May 5 23:55:23 2013 No.3727802

>>3727593
Define "correct perception of reality". Studies show that real depression inhibits your ability to assess the situation while under stress, Depression also limits your ability to make structured plans for your future, among other things.

I know that "i'm so smart that I'm saddened by all the knowledge" sounds hipster-tier awesome, but depressed people - whether smart or dumb - have their intelligence hindered by their condition.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 00:05:23 2013 No.3727828 File: 22 KB, 500x375, TakingAShitOnAcid.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3727593 >correct perception of reality Really now Really

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 00:15:42 2013 No.3727858 File: 1.73 MB, 314x227, 1360631421793.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3727712 stopped at: >There is three times of meaning:

Anonymous Mon May 6 00:18:23 2013 No.3727870

>The fact I'm pointing out is that I'm not sure of the standards by which you prove the correct judgment of the "grand scheme".
No, that's what I've been trying to point out to you. You're the one who brought up the bullshit of correct perception.You bringing up a "grand scheme" is not a compelling point about perception, it's just a vague misunderstanding (or misinterpretation) of value judgments as they relate to perception.
Maybe you should read the posts over again? My browser's messed up and replying/quoting is a tedious process, so I'm not going to go through all of the highlights.
You said depressed people have a correct perception of reality. I've been arguing this entire time that this as a point of view is fundamentally flawed from both a psychological and pragmatic point of view because it just throws around the words correct, perception, and reality wherever they might sound cogent, instead of addressing the point that depression clearly influences behavior in ways that harm the self (often purposefully to harm the self in ways that are poorly reasoned) and therefore it's difficult to agree that depression fosters sound perception. If a person's behavior is inconsistent (they do one thing, then immediately do the opposite), and their judgments are not reasoned (axiomatic treatment of value judgments), then the question of perception is a loaded one, it might as well not even be put forth at all.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 00:31:23 2013 No.3727928 Focusing on the empty 10% of a glass almost full of water isn't a very smart thing to do.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 00:34:23 2013 No.3727937 >does having blue eyes make you good at sports?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 00:47:23 2013 No.3727972 >>3727937 isn't there some urban myth about blue eyed people having better eyesight since more light is transmitted into the eye which is why they're so many blue eyed fighter pilots?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 01:44:23 2013 No.3728135 >>3727972 i heard blue eyes meant demon

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 02:04:23 2013 No.3728178 >>3727570 No, a smart person is someone who questions the concept of the "bleakness of reality" or questions the possibility of being able to generalize "reality" like that and even questions about the concept of reality as well.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 02:07:23 2013 No.3728185 >>3727566 Eventually worthless stains on society will not be allowed to reproduce, this is a slowly dawning realization many intelligent people will be implementing in the future.

Anonymous Mon May 6 02:10:23 2013 No.3728192

No, but if you're a smart person you're more likely to have a bleak outlook on life.

The problem is that a lot of teenagers get confused by this, and assume that because they're vaguely cynical, unhappy or nihilistic, then they must be intelligent.

Idiots.

Anonymous Mon May 6 02:14:23 2013 No.3728195

What I get from this thread is that you all think that being "smart" is interchangeable with being a genius.

tl;dr you aren't geniuses and being smart doesn't mean shit, you're still average and nothing special (go ahead, try to be clever and imply that no one is special)

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 02:16:23 2013 No.3728198 >>3728195 Neither are you.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 02:19:23 2013 No.3728204 >>3728198 Neither are you. No one on here is smart or worthwhile in any way, we're all utterly forgettable mediocrities.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 02:21:23 2013 No.3728209 >>3728204 Well that's a hilariously dumb generalisation.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 02:36:23 2013 No.3728238 >>3728209 I know, there's a good chance you are above average if you disagree with the popular opinions and beliefs of /lit/. >>3728195 This one is for sure above-average. this one too >>3728178

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 02:38:23 2013 No.3728241 There are no geniuses that are nihilists. There are no nihilists that are geniuses. Nietzsche isn't a genius btw (he isn't a nihilist either) stay mad and dumb and depressed kill urself as well pls,

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 08:29:24 2013 No.3728610 No, it makes you dumb.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 08:47:24 2013 No.3728630 >>3728241 Schopenhauer Cioran Sade Bataille Celine

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 08:52:23 2013 No.3728642 >>3728630 PROTIP: Cioran hated young people reading his work and he would laugh at you for being such a fucking loser

Anonymous Mon May 6 08:54:23 2013 No.3728643

>>3728630
I'll accept 1 and 3 and 4, I have never read the fifth and I have to deny number 2. Cioran has great insight in psychological frames but he didn't bring anything new for discussion nor original theories. He's very good and I don't doubt his intelligence but genius seems to me an exageration.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 08:55:23 2013 No.3728645 >>3728241 >nihilism >bleak >depressed Get a load on the post-Christian phantom pains of an amputated God on this guy. Nihilism isn't pessimism, it's in itself neutral.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 09:03:23 2013 No.3728654 >>3728642 Protip: I'm not that young. >>3728643 He is not a philosophical genius. But his ability as writer of aphorisms is undeniable. If he is not a genius then we haven't had a genius in the last 30 years.

Anonymous Mon May 6 09:16:23 2013 No.3728681
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>>3727490
What happens when a person that has grown up in a privileged country, with a loving family coupled with practically free education realizes that life is empty and devoid of all meaning, because he has never experienced anything remotely as psychologically painful as growing up in Eastern Europe in the 90s, for example?

What happens when a person has -too- many good things in his life?

We all know that in order for a person to maintain mental stability there needs to be a balance between good and bad, but what happens when children and young adults are so sheltered by their parents, or their neighbors, or their schools that the only things left in their lives are traditionally, good?

I believe this is the difference between West and East, poverty and wealth, etc. In poverty, you are plagued by a plethora of all sorts of problems we have all heard of and know about, but in the wealth, you become stale. Your life stagnates because your mind lacks stimuli. Westerners are trapped in a daily routine that makes them miserable and puts them on the fast track towards depression and all sorts of mental problems.

So who is to say that breaking into cars to afford Heroin is worse than robotically popping pills at desk jobs for 50 years?

Many people lash out against Westerners who have fallen prey to this phenomena, often saying "lel 1st world problems", but I dont think that helps at all. I think people who assume that being moderately wealthy should instantly solve 95% of your problems are wrong. There comes a point where economic stability and product availability (to ensure a never-ending cycle of consumerism) starts to negatively affect people. They start to lose all sense of direction and purpose in life.

Personally, I believe growing up in poverty is more rewarding. It gives you a set of values to live by for the rest of your life. You mature very early on, and you develop a protective yet extremely useful perspective on life and people in general.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 09:22:24 2013 No.3728695 >>3728681 >So who is to say that breaking into cars to afford Heroin is worse than robotically popping pills at desk jobs for 50 years? this.

Anonymous Mon May 6 09:25:23 2013 No.3728700

>>3728681

the amount of bullshit generalizations in this post is overwhelming

>in the wealth, you become stale. Your life stagnates because your mind lacks stimuli.

people in the west have a greater chance to pursue the things they are actually interested in, ie study and "stimuli" that they actually want to pursue, a lot of people in the east lack stimuli on a greater level because they don't even have the opportunity to do what they want due to lack of finances and options

>Westerners are trapped in a daily routine that makes them miserable and puts them on the fast track towards depression

and you think there is less of a "daily routine" in the east? you honestly think this? their "daily routine" is a sight harder than ours is

a lot of people in the west live very healthy, loving, and productive lives. as do people in the east. all this shit reads like you romanticizing oppression because you lack direction in your own life, that taxi driver pic just exemplifies it

Anonymous Mon May 6 09:33:23 2013 No.3728712

>>3728681
As a person who grew up in poverty and starvation and cold, and all that awful stuff you glamorize occasionally, let me tell you some bad things it causes.

You never throw out food: you eat all the leftovers until they're gone, and you eat food that's past its expiration date as long as it's not actively moldy.

You don't throw anything out that you might need, so youre reluctant to buy annything new. You save clothes, money, anything. You can easily become a hoarder.

You order off the dollar menu even when you have ten thousand dollars in your pocket. You eat very, very quickly.

You eat seldom; because you almost never get hungry and your brain has learned to ignore it when you do. But when you eat you eat a lot.

and you'd think that this would motivate you to strive for more, but it has the opposite effect. As long as you're warm and dry and there's a light to read by and your bellly is full, it's hard to care about anything else, including girls and chores and schoolwork. If you look in the fridge and theirs plenty to eat, and your house is warm and the bills are paid, your motivation drops to zero.

it can be weird explaining to people why you don't worry about the stuff they do, which they see as important and you see as trivial. Your brain keeps saying: "I have a warm coat and a fucking subway sandwich, and money for coffee in the morning. Who cares about carreers and relationships and global warming?"

Anonymous Mon May 6 09:36:24 2013 No.3728718

>>3728700
I knew someone would reply back with "buh generalization! ;_;"

That wasn't the point of my post and nowhere have I generalized anything. I am arguing ideologically and am comparing two extremes to one another.

Of course there are people in the East and West who live productive and loving lives, no shit, but I was comparing those who live in absolute poverty and resort to crime to finance themselves and those who were born into privileged homes with every means of support readily available to them. I am comparing the ramifications and the end results of these two groups which are both minorities in their respective national communities.

At the end of the post I added a remark which I believe is true, having a more difficult life can lead to a more solid, real-world based perspective. CAN lead, not that it -always- leads, before you once again complain about generalizations. And it can in turn bring about useful wisdom later on.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 09:38:24 2013 No.3728722 >>3728681 >Personally, I believe growing up in poverty is more rewarding. Take your wistful naivety and shove it up your fucking ass you ignorant fool.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 09:38:24 2013 No.3728723 >>3728135 I thought it meant white dragon.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 09:41:24 2013 No.3728730 >>3728695 Except one 'contributes' to society the other is destructive. That desk job you criticize may well belong to a person who works in a medical laboratory for instance.

Anonymous Mon May 6 09:43:23 2013 No.3728731

>>3728700
>>3728712
>>3728722

Why the fuck would anyone glamorize or romanticize poverty, where are you even pulling this stuff from?

Is it possible you might be projecting?

Because you all have missed the point of the post and instead instantly lashed out at the most insignificant part.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 09:43:23 2013 No.3728732 This thread has highly interesting and well articulated thoughts on both sides of the fence and I hope the participants continue to add more.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 09:43:23 2013 No.3728734 >>3728730 No, but... like.. man. You obviously don't get it. He isn't generalizing. He is arguing ideologically.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 09:45:23 2013 No.3728737 >>3728731 >Is it possible you might be projecting? Says the clown romanticizing poverty. Just stop. >lashed out at the most insignificant part The fact that it's even a "part" at all is the point.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 09:46:23 2013 No.3728741 >>3728737 >Im not romanticizing poverty I dont know what you guys ar- >LEL HES ROMANTICIZING POVERTY WHAT A FAG It's like Im talking to 5th grader.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 09:50:23 2013 No.3728754 >>3728741 >>Personally, I believe growing up in poverty is more rewarding. It's like you don't even read your own fucking posts. Every post you make is embarrassing for all concerned. Stop.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 09:54:23 2013 No.3728762 >>3728712 For some reason, as someone from privilege, I can relate to your attitude of absolute apathy about nearly everything.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 09:55:23 2013 No.3728764 >>3728754 >how do i continue reading

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 09:58:23 2013 No.3728772 >>3728764 Your posts are starting to lack the world-weary gravitas that was so strong before, I think it's time you attach another taxi driver pic to the next one.

Anonymous Mon May 6 09:59:23 2013 No.3728773

I think I may be the only person in this thread that grew up in actual, real, poverty. wooden shack in the woods, tin roof, no electricity, no heat, water from a well, days without food poverty. And as I talked about in a previous post, it's as likely to teach you useless behaviors as it is to teach you adaptive ones, once you get out of poverty. I can say it made me self sufficient and prepared me for the world, but what it actually made me is hypervigilant and prepared for mad max's world, and made it hard for me to take the soft, simple plentiful real world anything like as seriously as I need to.

>>	Virgin 20/m/UK !VIRGIN/FJM Mon May 6 10:00:23 2013 No.3728780 no, 99% of adults have a bleak outlook on life.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 10:00:23 2013 No.3728781 >>3728772 No point in arguing articulately with an idiot who uses sage in an active thread as some form of reddit downvote.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 10:00:23 2013 No.3728783 >>3728718 i agree poverty can be more rewarding if you are able to come out of it think count of monte cristo

>>	Virgin 20/m/UK !VIRGIN/FJM Mon May 6 10:02:23 2013 No.3728789 >>3728730 >contribute to society herd mentality, muh Nietzsche, etc.

Anonymous Mon May 6 10:05:23 2013 No.3728797

>>3728762
our attitudes come from different places, but they're essentially the same: I worry about things, but I'm ridiculously easy to satisfy with almost no expense or expenditure of effort. You have the resources to supply all your needs, though they're certainly greater than mine, so you don't have to worry either.

The biggest shock of my life cam when i turned fourteen and got a part time job that got me eighty dollars a week. It literally supplied all my needs, the needs of the younger kids in my family, and left me some over for luxuries like candy for the little kids and used paperbacks. I couldn't imagine why anyone suffered with money this easy to get.

Anonymous Mon May 6 10:06:23 2013 No.3728802

>>3728730
Sure bro lets contribute to the same bigoted society that ostracizes anyone who is marginally different or has a different set of goals in life than what is accepted.

Fuck you and fuck your society. I bet you're gonna scream "edgy" now too, aren't you, faggot?

Anonymous Mon May 6 10:06:23 2013 No.3728805
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Contended moderate 10k a year first world NEET poverty is best poverty. You don't have the stressful insecurity of the actual struggling poorfag and you don't have the jaded cancer of the working man.

"The cry of the flesh is not to be hungry, thirsty, or cold; for he who is free of these and is confident of remain so might vie even with Zeus for happiness."

" have enough to eat till my hunger is stayed, to drink till my thirst is sated; to clothe myself withal; and out of doors not Callias there, with all his riches, is more safe than I from shivering; and when I find myself indoors, what warmer shirting do I need than my bare walls? what ampler greatcoat than the tiles above my head?"

Etc.

Anonymous Mon May 6 10:09:23 2013 No.3728816

>>3728802
>Sure bro lets contribute to the same bigoted society

This bigoted society that you so rail against at least could be changed, 'fixed' - what are you doing about it?

Under this bigoted society, we have people with more disposable income than ever, the option exists for more people to travel or pursue whatever dream they might have at any point in history.

Stop being an anarchistic faggot and face reality.

You're just whining.

Anonymous Mon May 6 10:12:23 2013 No.3728819

>>3728816
>we have people with more disposable income than ever, the option exists for more people to travel or pursue whatever dream they might have at any point in history.

That's because there's MORE of us, you moron.

By the same logic we also have more people in poverty and crime than ever before, we just don't see that because we're separated by a fucking ocean.

Anonymous Mon May 6 10:12:23 2013 No.3728820

>>3728789

No man is an island.

You did nothing to mine the materials, or labour which made your computer. You did nothing that contributed to the internet which you so gleefully use. you did nothing to be provided with the comfort to shitpost with no repercussion.

It's ironic that people like you exist who cry about society being so terrible and how much you hate it and want no part of it yet don't even realise how dependent you are on it.

Seriously, if you hate society and its direction so much why don't you either shut up and deal with it if you're not going to do anything about it or just kill yourself?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 10:14:23 2013 No.3728821 >>3728819 Let's alter the argument to first world countries then - a country you likely exist in. The point still stands RELATIVELY speaking we are living in the best times of society.

Anonymous Mon May 6 10:17:23 2013 No.3728831

>>3728820
>You are not allowed to criticize something you are FORCED into being dependent on from age 0.

This fucking guy, man.

>>3728821
No we fucking don't, holy shit.

You are so sheltered it's amazing.

Do you have any idea how many people are starving right now? How many people are starving in the US? In Europe? Tens of thousands die yearly and that to you is somehow acceptable because you and your college friends are living in comfy suburban homes?

You think society is great because it has treated you so. You are blind to its shortcomings or rather wish to understate them to be further entrenched into the belief that it's the best of things.

Anonymous Mon May 6 10:18:23 2013 No.3728836

I'm the guy that grew up in poverty, and I think i can confidently say that I have an amazingly rosy outlook on life.

There's just about nobody growing up the way I did anymore in the new or the old world, and even in the third world it's getting less likely.

Food and clothing and shelter of a type at least are freely available, and everything is cheap. Medical care is better and faster, technology actually works, and while it's maybe harder to get a job that pays a lot, you really don't need a lot anymore. There is just about no actual belt-tightening going on anywhere, and I think that is a fantastic trend.

Anonymous Mon May 6 10:19:23 2013 No.3728840

>>3728816
>This bigoted society that you so rail against at least could be changed, 'fixed' - what are you doing about it?
Taking part in it. It will inevitably destroy itself.

>Under this bigoted society, we have people with more disposable income than ever, the option exists for more people to travel or pursue whatever dream they might have at any point in history.
So many fluffy terms, it almost puts one to sleep...

Virgin 20/m/UK !VIRGIN/FJM Mon May 6 10:20:23 2013 No.3728841 [DELETED]

>>3728831
>No we fucking don't, holy shit.

>mfw I thought you were about to go on a tirade about the contemporary cultural abyss and about how the height of Rome or the Renaissance were far better times than now, despite a lower "quality of life"

>mfw you go on a B'AWWWWWWW about starving people

wow it's fucking nothing

Anonymous Mon May 6 10:24:23 2013 No.3728858

>>3728831
Poverty guy again. This is flat wrong. In terms of what there was when i was a kid, things have gotten insanely, unbelievably better everywhere, and I've been a lot of places so I know it's not just rural appalachia and the barrios and inner cities where things have improved. The worst places and times out there now are like the best we ever had it. Seriously. ask some older guys.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 10:25:23 2013 No.3728860 >>3728841 Outsourcing of the traditional proletariat is a pretty old and standard argument, and a good one in response to someone who thinks they've turned into fairies or magic or something.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 10:26:24 2013 No.3728863 >>3728858 Sorry bro, anecdotal evidence.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 10:30:23 2013 No.3728874 >>3728858 >The worst places and times out there now are like the best we ever had it. Bhopal? Vietnam? Timor? Most of Africa and S. America? I think this is another "America is the world!" bs again.

Anonymous Mon May 6 10:31:23 2013 No.3728877

>>3728863
the numbers actually make my case look better. Check 'em out yourself. Just take an average wage from the sixties, and an average sales fllyer from a grocery store in the sixties, and one from today. That'll give you a start. Then do the sane thing with the sears catalog, and compare benefits for welfare, foodstamps, etc. then and now, iincluding how much they got and who was eligible. It'll blow you away how much better everything is at the bottom. It's like looking back in time to the last century, just pre-Great Society to now. no anecdotes needed.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 10:33:23 2013 No.3728880 >>3728877 First of all the dollar was worth far more than it is worth right now. The more money we get today, the greater is the cost of everything. Grocery prices have almost tripled in the past 2 decades alone.

Anonymous Mon May 6 10:33:23 2013 No.3728882

>>3728874
Yep. Those places too. especially South and Central America and Asia, where I have some personal experience. In a lot of ways they're doing far better than even America, because they were so far down to start with. A lot of South America used to be like East Africa is now.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 10:36:23 2013 No.3728889 >>3728877 I wonder if there's been a migration of agriculture and industry to countries with lower wages i.e. exportation of the proles to poorer countries. No, that's plain not possible.

Anonymous Mon May 6 10:39:23 2013 No.3728899

>>3728882
>especially South and Central America
Has Argentina's Harrods finally opened again (beyond rumours and promises)? Did they finally beat that crushing inflation that keeps happening?

>A lot of South America used to be like East Africa is now.
Brazil and Argentina used to be very similar to the US, you don't know what you're talking about bro.

Anonymous Mon May 6 10:40:23 2013 No.3728902

>>3728880
Total bullshit. Take the twenty eight bucks you would have brought home for a week in '64, subtract four bucks for utilities, six bucks for rent and five for gas, then get out a supermarket flier from the same year and feed your family for a week. Then do it with eight bucks an hour now.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 10:42:23 2013 No.3728906 >>3728899 Well, I wasn't in Brazil except way, way out in the boonies, where it looked like nothing I've ever seen in America, but sure did look a whole lot like the Congo, and I never got to Argentina, so you might have a point there.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 10:43:24 2013 No.3728910 >>3728889 I don't get what youre talking about here. And I think your confusing proles with peasants and Kulaks.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 10:46:24 2013 No.3728915 >>3728910 It's pretty straightforward. You understand that in some countries you can pay unskilled workers less, right?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 10:47:24 2013 No.3728916 >>3728906 >I was out in the country, and now I hear they have towns and cities Worst tourist.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 10:59:23 2013 No.3728948 >>3728916 Agricultural work for the peace corps, paying back some loans. Call it tourism if you like. But they got plenty of poverty in the cites too I hear.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 11:01:23 2013 No.3728952 >>3728915 I don't think agricultural work is exported though: it's mostly mechanized, and farmng isn;t exactly unskilled labor

Anonymous Mon May 6 11:05:23 2013 No.3728966

>>3728948
>But they got plenty of poverty in the cites too I hear.
I hear that about US cities too, isn't that weird.

I'm not being funny but "I went there once" isn't a substitute for being familiar with a place's history. Were you doing ag work in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s? No? Well, I'm sure you know what you're talking about anyway.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 11:08:23 2013 No.3728977 File: 242 KB, 720x514, brutalist castle noise room.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I, for one, enjoy contemporary life without being a faux-nostalgic golden age faggot.

Anonymous Mon May 6 11:17:23 2013 No.3729001

>>3728952
>it's mostly mechanized
Compared to 300 years ago? That's not really what I'm talking about.
>I don't think agricultural work is exported though
They put those stickers of origin on for fun, for sure. Most developed countries import a great deal of their food to prevent wild price fluctuations and increase food security. We live in a world where Italy imports olive oil and Britain imports apples. There are a handful of exceptions to this (like corn with the US), but they're few and far between. It doesn't make sense for developed countries to bear the risk for things like crop failure, plus you can get the food super cheap because in poorer countries everything is super cheap, and transport is super cheap.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 11:18:23 2013 No.3729007 >>3728966 sixties and seventies. Went back in the nineties for a reunion but didn't do any work.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 11:19:23 2013 No.3729009 >>3728977 But you can't help yourself. Thats the whole reason you posted that: you're fighting against your sentimentalism every day.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 11:22:23 2013 No.3729017 >>3729007 Then how the hell did you miss the whole "Brazil is the new developed country everybody!" during it's crazy growth? Were you in the bit of the boonies under a rock?

Anonymous Mon May 6 11:24:24 2013 No.3729028

>>3729001
Well, The U.S. and their companies are doing a lot of the agricultural production worldwide because they pretty much invented industrialized sustainable agriculture, and we've made amazing headway in terms of keeping the soil in place and replacing the nutirents over the traditional farming and, frankly, half-assed soil-stripping techniques that the in-country concerns were using. And while we don't hire a lot of farmers, since you don't need a lot for mechanized agriculture, we do help market their porduce and supply them with transportation, preservation and sorting and packaging, as well as seed and pesticides. There are still a lot of samll farms out there that get the benefits of U.S. market agriculture, even if they don't directly participate in it.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 11:29:23 2013 No.3729048 >>3729017 I spent most of my time checking irrigation pipes and testing runoffs for bacterial growth and fertilizer residue. You could say I was under a rock if you like. There was certainly no television, and I didn't understand the radio.

Anonymous Mon May 6 11:36:23 2013 No.3729066

>>3729028
>Well, The U.S. and their companies are doing a lot of the agricultural production worldwide because
Because it's often cheaper to go abroad than to spend the money at home.
>they pretty much invented industrialized sustainable agriculture
Woah, you can't be serious? I'm guessing you think of "agriculture" as corn and wheat, there are many other crops though. Go drive a combine over a crop of tea or grapes, see how that goes. Then plough through an orchard.
>and we've made amazing headway in terms of keeping the soil in place and replacing the nutirents over the traditional farming and, frankly, half-assed soil-stripping techniques that the in-country concerns were using.
Dustbowls and shitty farming is very much an American thing. Elsewhere, people have been farming without too many problems for centuries.
>There are still a lot of samll farms out there that get the benefits of U.S. market agriculture, even if they don't directly participate in it.
Covering all the bases I see: "We did it even if we had nothing to do with it".

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 11:44:23 2013 No.3729089 >>3729009 I embrace my sentimentalism, I just fetishise the contemporary so as not to fall in the vinyl clad trap of typewriter terrorism.

Anonymous Mon May 6 12:12:23 2013 No.3729162

>>3729066
well, that's sort of the problem: they've been farming for centuries with good techniques, but two things are screwing it up, or maybe three, if you look at it that way.

First, they're industrializing agriculture on a scale they haven't before, in order to compete pricewise and they can't afford to preserve the soil and replace the nutrients and eroded material like we can. They're soil-stripping, and moving on. It's like the type of farming that caused the dustbowls in the thirties, but they're doing it for a profit and then clearing out, partly becasue the U.S. has created a market for them and partly becasue they can get away with substandard techniques because they don't have to obey the international agreements that the U.S. companies are bound by. A lot of them don't even have bonds against bankruptcy, let alone damage.

Anonymous Mon May 6 12:13:23 2013 No.3729169

The second thing is also a United staes fault, and it's the big one: we've created a very lucrative market for organic meat and produce. The prices that this stuff is bringing has basically created a demand for marginal land, such as small farms, littorals and rain forests and early regrowth to grow food for export. Since they can't fertilize they have to use more land and burn more forests for ashes. Then instead of leting it regrow, or even fertilizing and using the same acreage, they sow it in annual grasses and graze it, to get organic fertilizer from the manure and organic beef to sell. If there is an agricultural sin to be laid at America's door, this is the big one. By setting higher and higher prices for organic "naturally grown" foods, we are causing vast tracts of rainforest to disappear for ever.

The access to markets and transportation that the U.S is providing might make better nutrition cheaper and mopre plentiful to the typicla city dweller than ever before,(farmers never had a problem with it) but it's had a secondary impact the extent of which some of these ecosystems may never recover from. All because some hippue wanted organic sweet potatoes and Dean foods wanted to sell organic milk for five bucks a gallon. I'm a little bitter sure, I'm an old-time agronomist and I hate to see waste for its own sake.

Charles Crumb !hxGgtPv0f. Mon May 6 12:24:23 2013 No.3729206

It's a trick question. In my eyes, life IS bleak, so having a bleak outlook on life would mean you see and understand what I consider to be the truth, so arguably that makes you a smart person.

But I don't support pessimism, I support realism. It just so happens that reality is utter shit.

Anonymous Mon May 6 12:36:23 2013 No.3729241
File: 34 KB, 322x335, 3p9dps.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>3729169
>Since they can't fertilize
Bullshit, man, bullshit.

Also, slash and burn isn't any good for your S American rainforests. No stored nutrients. You can use your green rev stuff there, and people certainly do, but organic farming would be at the very least difficult, nigh impossible.

>The access to markets and transportation that the U.S is providing might make better nutrition cheaper and mopre plentiful to the typicla city dweller than ever before,(farmers never had a problem with it) but it's had a secondary impact the extent of which some of these ecosystems may never recover from. All because some hippue wanted organic sweet potatoes and Dean foods wanted to sell organic milk for five bucks a gallon. I'm a little bitter sure, I'm an old-time agronomist and I hate to see waste for its own sake.
Sounds like you're going a little senile there pal. Your American dustbowls were first of all thought to be caused by incredibly poor intensive farming methods, and in part that's true. But an awful lot of the blame can be put on killing off the Bison to near extinction too. And now you're stuck having to convert oil to fertilizer that helps the crop grow into food with marginal nutritional value, rather than having some dumb animals making a load of fertilizer for you as they go about their business.

Anonymous Mon May 6 12:45:23 2013 No.3729268

>>3729241
Slash and burn works great in Brazil and most rainforests. Its because all the nutrients are in the biomass and not the soil. You always get that when water isn't scarce. And it doesnt really do that much damage to the ecosystem as long as you let it grow back after a few years. Also, with or without bison, those grasses would have been fine. It's the deep cultivation that got'em. And you're right organic farming (and "bullshit") don't work very well in rainforests, which is basically why it's such a tragedy that they keep using it.

Anonymous Mon May 6 12:49:23 2013 No.3729283

>>3727159
No, that's a silly relationship
A more interesting discussion, that has been referenced already, is whether being a smart person leads you necessarily to a bleak outlook
I'm kind of neutral about it. Affect of any kind is just a product of biology designed to make us evaluate our current position; it always overvalues the present and the proximal, so bad days are vastly more likely to result on vastly negative overall attributions. But affect and biologically contingent desires are more or less the only reason decisions can ever be made so I feel like you have to live the best you can in an Aurelian sense and take holidays from you contingent biology every now and then, whether you are giddy on happiness or lethargic on depression

Anonymous Mon May 6 12:57:23 2013 No.3729306

>>3729268
>Its because all the nutrients are in the biomass and not the soil.
The only example I know of something like slash and burn producing workable farmland in that area is that terra preta stuff, but that's a rather different kettle of fish. If you think slashing and burning rainforest will produce good farmland, you're mistaken. Not enough nutrients in the biomass, soil quality remains rather poor. Like I say, people can and do work large non-organic farms in that area using inorganic fertilizers, and that by and large is the kind of farming that causes deforestation.

Anonymous Mon May 6 13:27:23 2013 No.3729404

>>3729306
urrrr.... Well, the point is it DOESN'T make usuable farm land. You get about four growing seasons out of it and you have to leave it fallow for at leat ten years. But they're not doing that anymore, they're sowing it in annual grasses and (contrary to what most "organic" marketing agreements say) use broadleaf herbicides and artificial nutrients to both prolong the utility of the soil and to prepare it for grazing.It's a scam, but if we weren't willing to pay so much for organic in the U.S., it wouldn't work.

Anonymous Mon May 6 13:57:23 2013 No.3729480

>>3729404
>But they're not doing that anymore, they're sowing it in annual grasses and (contrary to what most "organic" marketing agreements say) use broadleaf herbicides and artificial nutrients to both prolong the utility of the soil and to prepare it for grazing.
>It's a scam, but if we weren't willing to pay so much for organic in the U.S., it wouldn't work.
The two things are unrelated broheim. If you're saying anything's at fault here, it's the use of non-organic methods in farming. It has nothing to do with yuppies or hippies wanting organic sweet potato or organic sour grapes or whatever.

Anonymous Mon May 6 14:13:23 2013 No.3729539

>>3729480
thats where you're wrong. Non-organic methods use so much less land that you can basically kkep your farms right next to where your arteries of transportation and supply are, and never have to range out into the forests. It's one of the reasons American forests are growing back so fast. I worked on organic farms twice in my life, and the wasted time, labor, land and effort, let alone the wasted food from pests. It was heartbreaking and horrifying. If somebody wants to do it in their back yard, fine. But on the industrial scale? I can think of no surer or faster way to kill what's left of the wild places on the planet.

Anonymous Mon May 6 14:21:23 2013 No.3729562

>>3729539
So you think using artificial fertiliser and pesticides is organic? Or it is neither organic or not? But what decides for you if it's organic or not is the soundness of its logistics? Huh?

You're not making sense, and to me sound a lot like one of those Jehovah's Witnesses trying to force the Watchtower on someone.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 14:24:23 2013 No.3729574 Being smart leads to people living in their own heads, living via models of reality rather than reality itself. In /lit/ terms, this means than instead of breathing air, the /lit/erati lives by sniffing his own farts.

Anonymous Mon May 6 14:32:23 2013 No.3729602

>>3729562
No, i think using pesticides and fertilizer is not organic. I think organic is terrible, and i speak from experience, employing both methods on similar (and in one case the same) land. And I am pretty proselyitic about it. I really hat the very idea of organic agriculture, not just from my own experience, but from the horrible waste and damage it brings. any amount of pesticide and fertilizer pollution from industrial farming is a small price to pay beside it.

Anonymous Mon May 6 14:44:23 2013 No.3729649

>>3729602
So you think the problem with organic is it causes deforestation, but at the same time admit that organic is almost completely incompatible with growing on deforested areas?
>I think organic is terrible, and i speak from experience, employing both methods on similar (and in one case the same) land.
Well, I once poured a bottle of MiracleGrow(tm) straight onto my up till then organic roses, and they died. QED mofo.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 18:18:50 2013 No.3730434 File: 63 KB, 340x565, 1358106416256.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3727593 Did you just use the word correct to condition the word perception? And on /lit/, too. Wow.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 6 18:20:59 2013 No.3730443 File: 106 KB, 742x540, 874874989.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3729574 It's either having a gf or living in your own head. Also, define reality.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 7 00:58:01 2013 No.3732014 File: 46 KB, 700x394, L.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Tue May 7 14:43:59 2013 No.3733480 I think being smart is just acting in harmony with the way you see things, the content of this way of seeing being completely irrelevant outside itself.

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/lit/ - Literature