/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.3818948]

Who the fuck wrote Revelations and what drugs was he on?

>I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
>In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
Rev 1:12-17

[Anonymous No.3818955]

You can see just as crazy shit in your own dreams. I know I have.

[Anonymous No.3818958]

It was God speaking through the mouths and minds of mere mortals.

[Anonymous No.3818966]

In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:

“‘Holy, holy, holy

is the Lord God Almighty,’[b]

who was, and is, and is to come.”

[Anonymous No.3818974]

>>3818966

the throne of God is a nightmare, all those eyes remind me of Hellsing

[Anonymous No.3818988]

>>3818948

>Who the fuck wrote Revelations and what drugs was he on?

Nah man, he did do drugs. He wasn't high on ell ess dee, he was just tripping on gee oh dee, man.

[Anonymous No.3818997]

A fellow named John (or Ἰωάννης), exiled to the island of Patmos during a time of persecution under the Roman emperor Domitian. He may or may not have been the same John who as an apostle of Christ.

[Anonymous No.3819003]

>>3818958
true we cant understand

[Anonymous No.3819005]

Now that we have CGI, why no film version of Revelations, and I'm not talking Left Behind nonsense for people who listen to Christian rock and voted Romney (reluctantly, because he was a Mormon)? I would say a David Lynch treatment, but then I remember he did Dune, and I'm not sure that's what I want. Hell, whoever directs it, it should be set in Roman times, just to be controversial. Controversy sells. Get on it film studios.

[Anonymous No.3819007]

The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss.
When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth.
They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes.
During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

7 The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8 Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle.

[Anonymous No.3819014]

>>3819003

atheists don't believe something came from nothing, that's what theists believe.

theists argue that a wizard created something out of nothing. they call him God.

[Anonymous No.3819022]

>>3819014
>>/b/

The picture he posted was a joke. Lurk more.

[Anonymous No.3819030]

>>3819022
>The picture he posted was a joke. Lurk more.

there are no jokes here.

[Anonymous No.3819035]

The Woman and the Dragon

12 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.


Revelations is pure epic fantasy !

[Anonymous No.3819113]

It's insane in its imagery but its doubley insane in what it attempts to do and the fact that it takes itself so seriously.

[Anonymous No.3819133]

>>3819014
>atheists don't believe something came from nothing
but stuff does come from nothing. Whether you like it or not, it's fact. It's been shown experimentally in a number of ways.

[Anonymous No.3819144]

>>3819133
Go to bed, hon'. You can regurgitate the glorious fantasies of Lord Hawking tomorrow.

[Sage No.3819150]

>>3819133
Citation needed le euphoric teenager

[Anonymous No.3819166]

>>3819144
Hawking has nothing to do with this. Man's done some good work on black holes in the past, but that was quite some time ago. No idea why he's still popular.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

[Anonymous No.3819183]

>>3818997
>Domitian
>may have been the same John who was an apostle of Christ

[Anonymous No.3819182]

>hurr durr what are metaphors

Go finish high school op

[Anonymous No.3819190]

but almost everything are explained at the beginning of the book

[Anonymous No.3819194]

>>3819133
>but stuff does come from nothing. Whether you like it or not, it's fact

It isn't a fact, it's impossible to establish empirically and doesn't make sense logically.

Krauss has done a great disservice to the public understanding of science with his book and imprecise definition of "nothing"

[Anonymous No.3819197]

>>3819182
>>hurr durr what are metaphors

>authorial intent

metaphors are hard to determine when you have miracles, gods and demons flying around doing magic all day

[Anonymous No.3819200]

So much accidentally this whole thread.

[Anonymous No.3819215]

>>3819194
Particles spontaneously come into existence all the time. While they annihalate each other, the effects have been observed in numerous experiments. If you wish to say otherwise, then you need some substansive evidence to the contrary.

And not making sense logically doesn't mean anything. If everything just made sense then we'd have had the entire universe figured out long ago.

[Anonymous No.3819227]

>>3819113
>fact that it takes itself so seriously.

what does that even mean

[Anonymous No.3819247]

>>3819227
it thinks it's real

[Anonymous No.3819248]

>>3819194
Forget Krauss and quantum fluctuations, I see no reason why stuff coming from nothing makes no sense logically. Just looking at Hume's problem of induction, it seems clear that there is no more logical reason for nothing (however you want to interpret that) to give way over time to more nothing than something.

[Anonymous No.3819249]

>>3819215
>no sources

[Anonymous No.3819257]

>>3819215
>Particles spontaneously come into existence all the time

This can't be detected. I mean you can detect that they appear in front of your laser now and then disappear.

But there is no way to establish their "coming from nothing" and rule out the highly logical possibility that they were caused to exist by other conditions.

There is no way to create the conditions of "nothingness" in which to run such an experiment anyway. All our experiments function in an already existing universe with plenty of rules, forms of matter, conditions and phenomena operating.


>While they annihalate each other, the effects have been observed in numerous experiments

Particle annihilation isn't literal in physics.

Particle + Anti-particle annihilation still conserve energy and momentum, the particles are simply transformed into new particles.

> If you wish to say otherwise, then you need some substansive evidence to the contrary.

Nothingness isn't a falsifiable or empirical concept.

>And not making sense logically doesn't mean anything.

It means you've encountered a contradiction and your thoughts become incoherent.

>If everything just made sense then we'd have had the entire universe figured out long ago.

Why? Logic won't tell you anything new about the world, it just tells you how well your concepts fit together.

[Anonymous No.3819258]

>>3819249
Not that guy, but Google quantum fluctuations, virtual particles, Hawking radiation, or any number of other things. You'll find all the incomprehensible sources you could possibly ever want.

[Anonymous No.3819262]

>>3819249
>doesn't google this shit for himself
>implying it's even hard to find

u r 1 lazy kunt m8

[Anonymous No.3819267]

>>3819166
Only that you are epistemically restricted of knowing the primordial reason and components for the cause of the universe; no amount of empirical evidence of the microcosmic/macrocosmic world(s) will verify this.

Feel free to hypothesize and appeal to your heroes, though - given the current circumstances of swarming scientism, I bet it boasts your intelligence in an euphoric manner.

[Anonymous No.3819268]

>>3819257
>There is no way to create the conditions of "nothingness" in which to run such an experiment anyway. All our experiments function in an already existing universe with plenty of rules, forms of matter, conditions and phenomena operating.
You don't need that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

[Anonymous No.3819275]

>>3819262
>the effects have been observed in numerous experiments

when you statements like that, the onus is on you to provide links

[Anonymous No.3819277]

>>3819248
>I see no reason why stuff coming from nothing makes no sense logically

what is the difference between an object having no cause versus an object being caused by nothing?

[Anonymous No.3819289]

>>3819275
this is the internet, you literally have years and years' worth of information and study on this subject ready to call up.

that "no citation = untrue" canard is so moronic when any information you want is at your fingertips, ready to fill the screen at your beck and call.

[Anonymous No.3819291]

>>3819268

What about it?

[Joseph Chamberlain No.3819293]

>>3819215
Yes,Quantum Physics shows us particles that come into existence on a quantum level in a void and become a Big Bang like thing. However nothing is the lack of a thing. Above is not "nothing." Think of no laws of nature, no void (not even a black emptiness, for "black" and "emptiness" are things), and certainly no complex series of equations that exist and make possible said particle coming into existence. If you could picture nothing, you couldn't. If "nothing" could be observable, it wouldn't.

As for your second point, it was that attitude amongst pagan cultures (The "chaos of the universe was simply warring gods) that stopped so much of the science that we see today. Catholic Christianity and a greater part of Islam have always said "The universe is the product of a supremely logical being. The universe thus is logical.

[Anonymous No.3819294]

>>3819257
Let me rephrase my proposition then. Our current understanding of the universe supports the idea that particles can spontaneously appear, that something comes from nothing. This idea helps explain certain phenomena found in nature, such as the Casimer effect. If you'd like to dispute the claim that "something comes from nothing" then explain the casimer effect without it.

>It means you've encountered a contradiction and your thoughts become incoherent.

hogwash. If the conclusion from your logic isn't sound then your premises are wrong.

[Anonymous No.3819295]

>>3819289
>this is the internet, you literally have years and years' worth of information and study on this subject ready to call up.

nothing in physics has ever claimed spontaneous existence of particles "from nothing" or ever claimed the disappearance of particles "out of existence"

only Krauss did in his misunderstanding of what humans mean by "nothing"

[Anonymous No.3819296]

>>3819277
I don't understand your point. The two phrasings seem interchangeable.

[Anonymous No.3819301]

>>3819289
Then fucking post a link then.

[Anonymous No.3819304]

If I recall correctly, it was cave fumes. The same shit that the oracles used.

[Anonymous No.3819306]

>>3819295
i am not arguing anything, besides that [citation needed] is one of the stupidest responses to a statement ever.

you can disprove it as these other anons are doing. with well-written posts. when you post nothing else it makes it clear that you have nothing else to say because you don't know enough about the subject to rebut it.

once a citation is given then the legitimacy of the source is called into question. et cetera, et cetera.

[Anonymous No.3819316]

>>3819306
How fucking hard is it to understand that definitive statements like "science has proved X" require some form of link? Maybe I don't follow the field of physics closely so I legitimately wouldn't know. But making bold ass statements and then copping out with "hurr durr just google it" is the poorest form of argument. If its so basic you should be able to find these "numerous studies" easier than I, since you apparently already know where to look.

[Anonymous No.3819388]

>>3819296
>I don't understand your point. The two phrasings seem interchangeable.

They aren't.
"having no cause at all" implies the object had no causes at all, it just is and always existed.


"caused by nothing" implies a state of affairs in which nothing existed, not even the object, and via the nothingness the object appeared somehow.

The former makes sense empirically, objects exist and change over time, they don't go "in" or "out" of existence.

The latter doesn't make sense logically because it treats "nothingness" as having causal powers, when by definition it doesn't.

To be a cause of something is to either structure its form or create its matter. A carpenter can be said to be the efficient cause of a table by morphing the wood into it. Matter/nature can be the material cause of the table by providing the material of it.

To say that the state of nothingness is the material cause of matter is incoherent because nothingness is the lack of matter, so it can't be the material cause. To say that it is the efficient cause is incoherent because there are no rules, laws, or designers in the 'state of nothingness' by definition.

Nothingness has no causal efficacy and to say it is the cause of something is to misunderstand what causality is.

[Anonymous No.3819440]

Even John Calvin said it was a book written by a drunkard

[Anonymous No.3819455]

On a slightly related note, after seeing this thread I read a little more of The Name of The Rose. And just because of this thread I recognized the four animals singing praises and such. And I caught the reference to Leah and Rachel just by chance talking of it earlier in the day, I'm not anything of a biblical scholar. Anyone else read the book, think I can get through catching that shit?

[Anonymous No.3821446]

i read it today and its really not that imaginative
it is, but it isn't

[Anonymous No.3821487]

>>3818966
>Day and night they never stop saying:
>“‘Holy, holy, holy
>is the Lord God Almighty,’[b]
>who was, and is, and is to come.”


Sounds like something Kim Jong Ill would've had on his throne.

[Anonymous No.3821508]

Seems like a good time to post my 1537 version. 17 leaves if you want it.

[Anonymous No.3821513]

>>3821508
>17 leaves if you want it
yes I said yes I will YES!!

Also, what translation is it? Wycliffe´s?

[Anonymous No.3821528]

>>3821508
Holy fuck.

[Anonymous No.3821532]

It's not a Wycliffe, not sure of its provenance but can check....it's actually 8 leaves, 17 images is what I meant....the missing image in that equation is the recto of page 1 in last post.

[Anonymous No.3821535]

>>3821532
Dear god, that's awesome

[Anonymous No.3821546]

>>3821532
>implying I can read that

why did they write like retards back then? Just use plain english.

[Anonymous No.3821564]

[London : Published by R. Grafton and E. Whitchurch ; Antwerp? : Printed by Matthew Crom?], 1537.

more illustrations ahead

[Anonymous No.3821569]

>>3821546
Why are you writing like a retard right now?

[Anonymous No.3821578]

>>3821532
>congregacyon

into the trash it goes! learn how to spell

[Anonymous No.3821628]

[Anonymous No.3821640]

[Anonymous No.3821677]

[Anonymous No.3821727]

[Anonymous No.3821744]

you say you want a revelation

[Anonymous No.3821750]

>>3821508
Jelus Christ? His name was actually Jelus?

[Anonymous No.3821759]

>>3821727
Awesome, please continue and ignore the retards.

[Anonymous No.3821772]

[Anonymous No.3821788]

page 10, in which scarey things happen. more scarey things. afk for a while.

[Anonymous No.3821804]

Well this thread went to shit quickly.

[Anonymous No.3821810]

Oooo these are purdy.

[Anonymous No.3821818]

>>3821810
lol, I always thought those laughing girls pictures were jokes

[Anonymous No.3821833]

>>3821508
>>3821532
>>3821564
>>3821628
>>3821640
>>3821677
>>3821727
>>3821744
>>3821772
>>3821788
How much did this cost you?

[Anonymous No.3821913]

>>3821818
Kid is alpha as fuck. They aren't laughing, they mirin.

[Anonymous No.3821979]

>>3821913
>>3821818
The best part is that HE is smiling, that's what's important and will usually evaporate anyone else laughing at him.
Here's another page.
>>3821833
It didn't, it isn't mine, I just photographed it. I wouldn't want the hassle of keeping something like that either. My homeowners insurance would go through the roof, and the HVAC to keep it stable, etc.

[Anonymous No.3821992]

So... WHAT drugs was he on?
Can't you guys stay on topic for five minutes to answer a simple question?
Jews and wine? Delerium? Or what?

[Anonymous No.3822009]

>>3821992
Why do you think he was on drugs? Because he wrote things you can only imagine when you're high?

[Anonymous No.3822027]

>>3822009
That was OP's question. I appreciate you posting images of a universally available text, but it's neither here nor there as to the topic of the thread.

[Anonymous No.3822131]

>>3822027
Thanks for the backhanded thanks. But you've avoided the question I asked to get the topic back onto OPs question, and I wonder why OP (and you?) are assuming the writer was on drugs? Can you apply Occums Razor here?

[Anonymous No.3822158]

>>3822027
Quite possibly DMT.

Failing that, it is actually entirely possible that he saw all this shit without drugs, dreams, starvation; a psychotic episode; any of that.

It is one of the great myths of modern psychiatric medicine that normal people don't experience some completely batshit insane stuff now and then, without any really known reason.

[Anonymous No.3822167]

/spoiler/ God

[Anonymous No.3822179]

This is the first edition of the Matthew's version. This translation, which welds together the best work of Tyndale and Coverdale, is generally considered to be the real primary version of the English Bible.
The woodcuts have been traced to the illustrations of the Low German Bible by Lubeck in 1533-34.

[Anonymous No.3822194]

Well OP, if you take a Christian perspective it was a vision God showed John while he was exiled on Patmos. God told him to write down what he saw, and like the rest of the Bible his words were inspired by God. Visions also tend to look crazy and be full of metaphors.

That said, just looking at the text itself Revelation is an example of Apocalyptic writing. This does not mean it only has to do with the end of the world; most Apocalyptic writing just happens to be. The literary form was basically just for writing information in a concealed way.

TL;DR - It's a bunch of metaphors.

[Anonymous No.3822217]

>>3822194
Definitely one of my favorite pieces of writing, not because it's all "ooo, Apocalypse" but because of the metaphors, which I think are very well done and beautifully written. Lots of wonderful visions in this.

[Anonymous No.3822219]

>>3822131

I don't* think its psychaedlic drugs because he didn't imagine anything unique or transcendent.

His imaginings are just modifications of mundane things like a horse with the head of a lion. a snake with multiple heads, etc.

He uses numbers a lot, 7 angels with 7 trumpets on 7 chairs, with 4 horsemen and 4 animals and 4 blablabala.

This type of numerical repetition is usually the sign of a mental illness. He was most likely a little schizo and drunk when he wrote it.

[Anonymous No.3822229]

>> He was most likely a little schizo and drunk when he wrote it.
It's not possible he was completely sane and sober?

[Anonymous No.3822233]

>you will never be a 13th century peasant who reads the bible and revelations and believes it to actually be true

i can only interpret it in a vague allegorical and atheistic sense
damn science and logic!

[Anonymous No.3822240]

>>3822229
>It's not possible he was completely sane and sober?

of course it's possible, it's possible he was an alien from mars too.

But not probable

[Anonymous No.3822247]

>>3822240
He could have been a completely sane alien from Mars, (but stoned on Mars drugs).

[Anonymous No.3822248]

>>3822229
Don´t let them rustle your jimmies, good fellow.

[Anonymous No.3822255]

>>3822219
I do love the wench in the pic tho

[Anonymous No.3822279]

>>3822248
Thanks, ok, I'm cool, I'm cool....chillin' like Dylan...

[Anonymous No.3822281]

>>3822255

me too

[Anonymous No.3822293]

>>3822281
do you have more?

[Anon No.3822297]

>>3822158
+1 on DMT, it was probably either that or it could be Datura along with something to enhance effects.

[Anonymous No.3822307]

Am I the only one who thinks Milton's imagined heaven and hell - indeed his take on Adam and eve and Satan's fall from heaven are just insanely better than anything in the bible?

If Christianity had adopted Milton's Paradise Lost as it's official canon, I'm pretty sure I'd be a devout Christian...

[Anonymous No.3822322]

>>3822297
He wasn't on Datura because that's not even remotely what the effects are like and he wasn't on DMT because that hadn't been discovered and even if it had, the only natural source for it is in the fucking Americas. Christ almighty. You wouldn't see shit like that on DMT either, although maybe you would on ayahuasca but that's still a moot point given there wasn't any for thousands of miles.

The only conceivable drug he could have been on are some psychoactive mushrooms which grew in the area and had effects like that, but being batshit is a lot more likely.

[Anonymous No.3822331]

>>3822307
I read a quote by an angry Italian or Spaniard complaining about how the British seem to consider Paradise Lost as canon, so no, you're not the only one. It's a fantastic classical and romantic take on the mythos and probably informs the modern idea of Christianity far more than the actual bible for a great many people.

[Anonymous No.3822354]

Revelation was written as an allegory. It was, to its contemporaries, a clear criticism/warning about the Roman emperor Nero, whose initials or old school Roman Social Security number or something were 666. Only long after it was written did anyone try to take it literally.

[Anonymous No.3822357]

>>3822293

a couple

[Anonymous No.3822377]

>>3822357
if this is you're girlfriend, you are one lucky guy, if not, do please share her name

[Anonymous No.3822379]

>>3822377
your*

[Anonymous No.3822401]

>>3822219
>>3822281
>>3822357

[Anonymous No.3822453]

>>3819005
>David Lynch directing Revelations
It might just work.

[Anonymous No.3822459]

ITT: people who are not creative enough to construct ideas and images without the help of drugs

[Anonymous No.3822466]

>>3822459

but your brain makes ideas out of drugs it generates

[Anonymous No.3822477]

>>3822466
>ideas
>chemical

[Anonymous No.3822485]

>>3822466
but it makes brain drugs out generates it of

[Anonymous No.3822486]

>>3822477
your brain is nothing but drugs

[Anonymous No.3822494]

>>3822486
le_meth_face_testing_heat_of_his_fluffy_lumpkin_on_chin.jpg

[Anonymous No.3822713]

>>3822219
7 and 4 are significant numbers in Judaeo-Christian mythology. They relate to God and Earth, respectively, IIRC. I feel like 4 might be Satan, but that also might be 3.

[Anonymous No.3822719]

>>3822485
That doesn't even make sense as a sentence.
>>3822486
What do you mean by 'drugs' here?

[Anonymous No.3822751]

>>3822485

the brain drugs kind that sentence your scramble?

[Anonymous No.3822768]

>>3819257
>Particles spontaneously come into existence all the time
>This can't be detected. I mean you can detect that they appear in front of your laser now and then disappear.

Virtual particles can't be detected directly, but have measurable effects on other particles.

>Particle + Anti-particle annihilation still conserve energy and momentum, the particles are simply transformed into new particles.

When particles and antiparticles "annihilate", it means the matter has been transformed to energy, not new particles. Hence the use of the word "annihilate".

>Particle annihilation isn't literal in physics.

Let's stop pretending philosophical definitions are always useful in science.

[Anonymous No.3822786]

>>3819194
>Krauss has done a great disservice to the public understanding of science with his book and imprecise definition of "nothing"
Krauss fag disagrees with my definition. Who cares if science works?

[Anonymous No.3822817]

>>3822307

milton had better editing than revelations
latter is all over the place

[Anonymous No.3822823]

>>3822786
Krauss is a logical clusterfuck. He's a button-pushing scientist; not a philosopher, or a thinker for that matter, but a human calculator. He's a retard, his fans are retards, case dismissed.