Can /lit/ share with me some more examples of "elder god" tier villains?

File: 1017 KB, 762x1120, villain-tiers.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 00:46:07 2013 No.3904939 [Reply] [Original]

Can /lit/ share with me some more examples of "elder god" tier villains?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 00:48:08 2013 No.3904951 Humbert Humbert in Lolita just by the eloquent way he defends himself and so logically you sort of start believing him.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 00:57:08 2013 No.3904989 >>3904951 Not really sure if that counts, being charming doesn't mean your motives are in the interest of the greater good, even if you are able to convince people otherwise

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 01:00:07 2013 No.3905001 >>3904939 john henry eden fallout 3

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 01:02:07 2013 No.3905010 File: 39 KB, 300x368, 6a00e54fe4158b88330168e9f768ca970c-320wi.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3904939 does not understand Ganon

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 01:02:07 2013 No.3905011

>>3904989
Except he convinces YOU, the reader, that he is right. That is pretty amazing task in it of itself.

While we are discussing it, can a villain whose motives are in the interest be of the greater good even be considered a villain? He might be more of an antagonist if he disagrees with the hero... or a antihero at worst.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 01:03:07 2013 No.3905016 >>3905011 That's subjective, but if he convinced you, fair enough. Well yes, antagonist would be a more correct classification

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 01:11:07 2013 No.3905043 >>3904939 wow that's a really black and white and terrible way of viewing the "quality" of a villain in any work

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 01:13:07 2013 No.3905046 >>3905043 what do you expect when it's base from /co/, /v/ and /tv/?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 01:14:07 2013 No.3905048 it seems that 'shit tier' are the most iconic

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 01:14:07 2013 No.3905049 meh tier should be elder god tier villains whose motives are ambiguous and difficult to grasp are the most existentially threatening because of the cognitive dissonance of rejecting something in total ignorance

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 01:22:07 2013 No.3905063 hitler

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 01:22:07 2013 No.3905064 >>3905063 nah he was shit tier for sure

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 01:26:07 2013 No.3905080 >>3904951 He himself admits that what he did was wrong... He can convince you to sympathize with him, but ultimately he's convincing you of how great his passion is and not that what he's doing is the "correct" course of action

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 01:30:07 2013 No.3905088 >>3905064 ja, if anything Stalin was mid, Hirohito was meh, Mao was high, Wilson was "great", and Trotsky was Egalitarian General

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 01:42:07 2013 No.3905117 if we apply this logic to anti-heros as well, i guess

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 01:43:07 2013 No.3905120 elder god is kaiser wilhelm . world war 1 wasnt black and white u know

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 01:43:07 2013 No.3905121 >>3904939 I would argue that Chaotic evil makes for some of the best villains.... Ganon is good villain

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 01:45:07 2013 No.3905130 File: 20 KB, 220x312, 220px-Falling_Down_(1993_film)_poster.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3905117 forgot my pic

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 01:46:07 2013 No.3905135 >>3905088 I would put Mao and Stalin both in Elder God. They turned their nations from feudal shitholes into super powers.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 01:46:07 2013 No.3905136 >>3904939 Dis nigga never played Skyward Sword

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 01:47:07 2013 No.3905140 fidel castro is an elder god

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 01:47:07 2013 No.3905141 >>3905140 communist pls go

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 01:49:07 2013 No.3905147 File: 29 KB, 630x420, 060807gandhiji_630jpg.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3905130 Good one. But he's more of an ordinary psychotic than a villian. Here's mine. I'm not sure if I'm trolling either. I like Gandhi for the record.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 01:54:08 2013 No.3905164 who is the villain in moby dick. Ahab or moby dick?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 01:55:07 2013 No.3905170 >>3905147 Hmmm. Now that's interesting. You could draw certain parallels between ghandi and ellesworth toohey from the fountainhead >>3905164 Obsession

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 02:00:07 2013 No.3905194
File: 39 KB, 576x362, clip_image002_000.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Wouldn't it be great if an "encyclopedic" writer like Pynchon wrote about the earth sciences and applied his knowledge into a literary narrative with characters and human feels etc. that we all love?

Does /lit/ know of any accurate (apolitical), non-textbook, contemporary earth science non-fictions?

>inb4 bill mckibben-archaetypes

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 02:02:07 2013 No.3905207 >>3905194 You write this work anon.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 02:04:07 2013 No.3905218

>>3905164
Neither. Ahab is Ahab. Shit, he cries for god's sake. The Moby Dick is a whale, just a plain ol' ugly whale in nature.
>>3905170
is on the right track. I think it has something to do with the genuine faults of man that we all have. No one is innocent etc.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 02:05:07 2013 No.3905221 >>3905207 Wrong thread. Meant to start a new one. Whoops. Thanks for the encouragement!~!!

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 02:14:07 2013 No.3905250 >>3905218 i dont know. Ahab's monomania got everyone killed. Also, Moby Dick is described as being unnaturally malicious and intelligent. As if the whale knew what the fuck it was doing.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 02:19:07 2013 No.3905259 >>3905250 >monomania >got everyone killed >Call me Ishmael. Sole survivor =unreliable narrator anyone?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 02:30:08 2013 No.3905285 >>3905135 ..what?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 02:31:09 2013 No.3905287 >>3905285 What are you questioning?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 02:34:07 2013 No.3905290 Why are villains always the most interesting characters in stories - even the poorly written ones? Is it due to their flaws, motives and often twisted logic that we find them more conflicting and interesting?

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 02:47:07 2013 No.3905316

>>3904939
I really do hate this list. Not all villains need to be anti-heroes, they don't need depth or complexity, there are great villains who are just plain bad.

But fucking teenagers need grimdark like oxygen and so you can't have any decent fiction without fucking anti-heroes anymore.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 03:00:08 2013 No.3905343 >>3905287 stlin stole shit from satellite nations to make russia a power. china never was a power. he just followed stalin and fuck his own people.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 03:04:08 2013 No.3905353 >>3904951 >Humbert Humbert >villain

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 03:07:07 2013 No.3905358 >>3904939 In Fiction or RL? Ahriman for both, actually

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 03:07:07 2013 No.3905359 >>3904939 Ozzy was a fuckin retard who honestly believed "HURR DURR GIANT SQUID SOLVES EVERYTHIN!"

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 03:07:08 2013 No.3905357 >>3905353 Yeah, it's not like he conditioned a 12 year old to have sex with him or literally murdered anyone.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 03:09:07 2013 No.3905364 >>3905357 >conditioned a 12 year old to have sex with him umm he loved her and gave her the dick. It was totally consensual. She wasn't even a virgin.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 03:11:07 2013 No.3905371 Why do people have to rank everything?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 03:11:07 2013 No.3905375 >>3905359 That's right. Also, Dr. Manhattan, at the end, tells him: "nothing ever ends" or "nothing is permanent", something like that. if Ozymandias was so clever and also was obsessed with eastern cultures he would have known that already.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 03:12:07 2013 No.3905376 >>3905364 >She wasn't even a virgin. Now as I recall she had some kind of lesbian hijinks at summer camp but she wasn't screwing anyone. It was her friend who was having sex with some guy.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 03:12:07 2013 No.3905377 >>3905371 autism

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 03:12:07 2013 No.3905380 shit tier is the best good vs evil is the best story

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 03:13:08 2013 No.3905381 >>3905371 It's ok to do it, it's like playing a game, but simple minds don't understand that.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 03:13:08 2013 No.3905382 >>3905376 no the guy fucked her once

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 03:16:07 2013 No.3905389 >>3905382 I really don't remember it saying that.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 03:22:07 2013 No.3905402 >>3905375 ALSO (I just remembered), he is clearly crazy. When he talks about taking a bullet and not giving a shit about it, the other heroes look at him like he was crazy and he just smiles mildly like a cold maniac. Ozymandias belongs with the Joker.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 03:26:07 2013 No.3905411 >>3905382 spoilers man come on I just got it yesterday

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 03:26:07 2013 No.3905412 >>3905375 The ending is one of the things the movie did better than the comics. Plus the whole asspull with the psychics.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 03:45:07 2013 No.3905447 Mordred in most of the more modern tellings of the Arthurian legend does what I would do if I found myself trapped in a weak, misshapen body living in a society which values only strength; and who was nearly killed by his father as a baby.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 03:48:07 2013 No.3905454 This thread. Where is Satan?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 03:49:12 2013 No.3905458 >>3905088 What misdeeds was Mao retaliating to? Mao is pure shit tier, so were Stalin and Hitler.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 03:51:07 2013 No.3905463

>>3905287

Russia was always going to become powerful after industrialization due to it's fuck ton of resources, landmass and man power, there was never any stopping it. Lenin and Stalins policies actually set Russia back hugely and contributed to some of the worst atrocities done to man in the history of human civilization.

China has been on and off one of the great superpowers on Earth and all Mao managed to do was fuck it up big time, and engineer some of the greatest famines ever seen. Having a fuck ton of slave labour produce a nuclear bomb you got gifted to you by the Soviets does not a great nation make.

Your knowledge of history is fucking nil.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 03:53:08 2013 No.3905467

>>3905454

Depends on the story you're referencing. In something like Paradise Lost because of the point of the story he's clearly Elder God Tier, but for something like The Divine Comedy where Satan is not sympathetic at all he is mid tier or shit tier depending on if you think God's omniscience means that Stan had no choice but to commit evil and is only following through the natural course of things.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 04:23:07 2013 No.3905502

>>3905463
>Russia was always going to become powerful after industrialization due to it's fuck ton of resources, landmass and man power, there was never any stopping it.
Eh, Africa has more resources, landmass and manpower than Russia. Look at where it got them.

>Lenin and Stalins policies actually set Russia back hugely and contributed to some of the worst atrocities done to man in the history of human civilization.
No. Before 1917 Russia was basically a colony of Western capitalist robber barons, due to retarded policies of late 19-century monarchs.

See Africa's example of what happens when you blindly accept colonialism.

>China has been on and off one of the great superpowers on Earth and all Mao managed to do was fuck it up big time, and engineer some of the greatest famines ever seen.
Also wrong, see explanation of colonialism above. China was even more enslaved by colonial interests than Russia, due to an even more retarded monarchy.

>Your knowledge of history is fucking nil.
I won't even comment on this; wouldn't want to hurt your feelings.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 04:31:07 2013 No.3905519

>>3905463
>Russia was always going to become powerful after industrialization due to it's fuck ton of resources, landmass and man power, there was never any stopping it.

No it wasn't. Russia was a highly exploited nation under the leadership of a aristocracy that had no fucking clue what in fuck they were doing and constantly sending millions of their people to die in wars.
The entire country was starving to death. If the Tsar had stayed in power, you would probably have the greatest famine in human history.

> Lenin and Stalins policies actually set Russia back hugely

By that you mean made it the worlds strongest super power, rapidly industrialized it and turned it into a country that had higher life indicators such as life expectancy, literacy and development than the US in the 50s and 60s despite several wars devastating it?

>l Mao managed to do was fuck it up big time, and engineer some of the greatest famines ever seen.

Actually the FAMINE (plural) was only large due to China's population, in fact, it was smaller than other famines in the region, especially those in British controlled India and Hong Kong. (Hong Kong 32:1000, GLF China 25.7:1000).

Most of China was addicted to Opium under the nationalists that was killing tens of millions of people, by 1952 Opium use was largely a thing of the past. Life expectancy DOUBLED under Mao and production shot through the roof. (inb4 bullshit GDP numbers without even realizing that GDP has nothing to do with physical production, but money movement and Capitalist nations will always have a high GDP because of constant flow of capital)

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 04:35:08 2013 No.3905528

>>3905502

Africa never developed any industry or infrastructure. There's no point in debating the reasons for this right now, but that's the reason there never developed any African superpower. Check out India though, now that they are progressing with technology, education and infrastructure they're going to be a superpower in a few decades.

And hey you have my point all wrong. I know that Russia and China were shit before Mao/Stalin but what's your point? Both of those nations needed something and that something was not mass slaughter, famine, military spending and restriction of human rights and freedoms. If your point is that Mao and Stalin were good because China and Russia were struggling before they came to power then it's a very weak argument in my opinion. India is a nation of a billion people. It is impossible to colonize India if the people are unwilling to be colonized, it is impossible to colonize Russia and China for that same reason; too many people. Both of those nations were headed for an industrial revolution before their respective uprisings and both of those nations were set back and harmed by policies put in place by their totalitarian states.

It really saddens me that there's so much widely available information on these things and people still go onto message boards and act the apologist for sickeningly violent totalitarian regimes.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 04:37:07 2013 No.3905530 >>3905001 This 100% anon. I didn't like how I couldn't support him. And the enclave was cool. Fuck,man.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 04:38:07 2013 No.3905531
File: 62 KB, 500x319, slum.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>3905528
>Check out India though, now that they are progressing with technology, education and infrastructure they're going to be a superpower in a few decades.

Which is why tens of thousands of people are flocking to the Naxalites amirite?

GDP figures are complete bullshit to show what quality of life actually is. Most people in India live like this.

The innercity might be getting better. But India is going to face an all out revolution if things keep going the way they are going.
Shit is already going down in the east.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 04:39:07 2013 No.3905534

>>3905519

I'll need to see some sources which indicate that Russia had higher life expectancy than the U.S in the 50's and that Chinese life expectancy doubled under Mao and that production shot through the roof (unless you are referring to shoddy steel and weapons production the country did not need).

I'm sure these will be easy for you to provide and after I've looked through them and verified their source I would love to continue the discussion. You have to understand that my reading into the subject has led me to the understanding that policies Mao put in place like the great leap forward and rapidly militarizing the nation were actually harmful to the Chinese people.

Also the nationalists were bad as well, I'm not going to dispute that.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 04:42:08 2013 No.3905536

>>3905531

I lived in India for some time and I know full well the situation is bad for the vast majority of Indians. Most people can't read or write, don't have employment and lack sanitary facilities and clean water. What I'm saying is that India is industrializing very rapidly which is what makes a large country with a big population into a superpower. Stalin, Mao and others did this in their respective nations, but they did it very badly and with unnecessary and savage cruelty.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 04:48:07 2013 No.3905546

>>3905528
>Africa never developed any industry or infrastructure.
Neither did Russia and China in the 19th century.

>And hey you have my point all wrong. I know that Russia and China were shit before Mao/Stalin but what's your point?
My point that that they had a practical, working solution to pressing problems. Solutions that produced the desired results. You can argue that there were better ways to solve the problem, but that's irrelevant -- at that point in space and time there wasn't anybody to propose them.

>Both of those nations needed something and that something was not mass slaughter, famine, military spending and restriction of human rights and freedoms.
Nobody gives a shit about 'human rights and freedoms'. On the list of 1000 problems facing 19th-century Russia and China, 'human rights and freedoms' aren't even in the first half. That's just a fact of life, deal with it.

>If your point is that Mao and Stalin were good because China and Russia were struggling before they came to power then it's a very weak argument in my opinion.
No, my point is that they solved problems they promised to solve, and solved them relatively effectively.

>India is a nation of a billion people. It is impossible to colonize India if the people are unwilling to be colonized, it is impossible to colonize Russia and China for that same reason; too many people.
You have no clue what colonialism is. Also, Africa has more people than Russia and China combined.

>It really saddens me that there's so much widely available information on these things and people still go onto message boards and act the apologist for sickeningly violent totalitarian regimes.
Like I said, nobody in the real world actually cares that a regime is 'violent' and 'totalitarian'.

The USA, as of 2013, is also violent and totalitarian, yet nobody really cares as long as GDP grows, crime is contained and the iphones are still being sold.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 04:50:07 2013 No.3905548 >>3905546 You are an immature person, with a shoddy way of thinking. You not worth my time. I'm sorry, maybe in your next life you'll be a little more intelligent :(

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 04:50:07 2013 No.3905549

>>3905534
The Seeming Paradox of Increasing Mortality in a Highly Industrialized Nation: the Example of the Soviet Union : 1985. author Dinkel, R. H.

>These improvements continued into the 1960s, when the life expectancy in the Soviet Union surpassed that of the United States.

Under Mao the population went from 550 million to 924 million.
Life expectancy went from 32 in 1950 to 65 by 1970. Under Mao infant mortality rate was lower than that of the US.

Penny Kane, The Second Billion (New York: Penguin, 1987), chapter 5; Ruth and Victor Sidel, Serve the People: Observations on Medicine in the People's Republic of China (New York: Josiah Macy, Jr. Foundation, 1973)

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 04:52:07 2013 No.3905553 File: 42 KB, 600x600, 1339794682535.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3905546

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 04:54:08 2013 No.3905556 >>3905549 No, I need links to sources on the internet because I don't have these books available. Come on man, if these are facts I would like to see them.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 04:58:07 2013 No.3905563

>>3905519
Know that the russian industrialisation started at the end of the 19th century. People like Sergei Witte used their position to make Russia a good place for foreign investors. Unfortunately, most of the merits of the industrialisation still stayed in the hands of the aristocracy.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 04:59:07 2013 No.3905566 >>3905553 >>3905548 So, it looks like I won the argument?

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 05:01:08 2013 No.3905573

>>3905556
Studies/books:
http://www.hkstrongwind.com/pdfs/EBook/The_Battle_for_Chinas_Past.pdf

http://www.Chinastudygroup.net/blogs/eastwindwestwind/files/2009/08/patnaik-famine-measuring.pdf

http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/21309/1/Significance_of_the_Chinese_Revolution_in_world_history.pdf

Two left wing sites that go into it as well:
http://weeklybolshevik.wordpress.com/2013/05/21/what-makes-a-famine-is-ideology/

http://www.revcom.us/a/1248/mao_china_setting_record_straight.htm

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 05:01:08 2013 No.3905574

>>3905566

If that's what you want to think. I hope you experience suffering to the same degree people were made to go through during the great leap forward or during some of the "trials" and "interrogations" in Soviet Russia. I hope your lack of compassion and wisdom leads you either to understanding or to an unhappy life and miserable death.

You might not care to believe it but you're cursed and unless you remedy your mind you are never going to obtain happiness, wisdom or truth. Have a nice life, and yes, you've "won" the argument. I no longer wish to argue with you.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 05:02:08 2013 No.3905575 >>3904939 The joker's in the wrong tier. His motives aren't a mystery

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 05:06:07 2013 No.3905578

>>3905573

All right well I have to say that some of these (the last one in particular) are very suspect and unreliable. I also feel like statistics lifted from the tail end of a dying regime which took place directly after several massive conflicts do not indicate that this regime was positive for the people of China, or that another regime would not have been much better. It's superfluous for me to provide sources for the famine and leap forward deaths, or other atrocities because the history is so well recorded.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 05:44:07 2013 No.3905648

>>3905574
>If that's what you want to think. I hope you experience suffering to the same degree people were made to go through during the great leap forward or during some of the "trials" and "interrogations" in Soviet Russia.
For the vast majority of people in Russia and China these were the best times of their lives, bro.

>I hope your lack of compassion and wisdom leads you either to understanding or to an unhappy life and miserable death.
The one who lacks compassion and wisdom here is you. You're ignoring the actual, real needs and wants of people in Russia and China at the time, because you deny them human agency and want to force them to conform to your ridiculous Procrustean notions of 'proper' first-world ethics.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 05:49:07 2013 No.3905653

>>3905578
>do not indicate that this regime was positive for the people of China
Of course it fucking was. Are seriously claiming that late-Qing China was in any way better than 1960's PRC??

>or that another regime would not have been much better
Irrelevant. There was no other hypothetical regime at the time.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 05:52:07 2013 No.3905657 >>3904939 Humbert Humbert

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 06:15:09 2013 No.3905691 >>3905657 It's hard to find fault in him kidnapping and raping an orphaned twelve year old?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 06:38:07 2013 No.3905728 >>3904939 swap high and meh and mid and shit

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 07:39:07 2013 No.3905775 >>3905454 Fucking this. Milton's Satan is the most Elder God-Tier 'villain' in this thread.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 07:42:07 2013 No.3905780 >>3905290 I believe CS Lewis wrote an essay on exactly this - he said villains are always the most interesting characters because they often reflect repressed and taboo fragments of human nature.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 08:39:07 2013 No.3905852 >>3905049 agreed

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 08:55:08 2013 No.3905890 >>3904939 Any of those can be great if done right.,

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 08:57:08 2013 No.3905895 >>3905890 yeah, judge holden fits in the shit tier character and he's one of the best literary protagonists i've encountered.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 09:03:19 2013 No.3905906

I think that the Agent Smith from Matrix is not Elder God Tier, but closer to it. He is a type of villain that hunt the enemy because this assignment is the essence of his natural being (I call this kind of villan "chaser".), but he also haves a strong personality, questioning logically the his enemies, and also, he is persuasive, always trying to disturb the hero's mind and motivations (in this case, the hero are a colletive, the human resistence)
I think that his speech comparing the humans as a virus in the first movie fabulous.

Agent Smith is nothing but T1000 with a conscience.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 09:09:10 2013 No.3905917 >>3905890 I agree with this, but the best villain is the persuasive villain. The strong character villain. Villains should not be rated by "tier". But yes by type.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 09:21:04 2013 No.3905946

fucking too many edgy communist apologist teenagers on this board. Just because you read Das Kapital doesn't mean Marx's theories aren't half-baked pipedreams that are totally devoid of any economic validity, and which totally ignore basic human nature.

sorry folks, but collectivism is always bad and leads to bad things.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 09:25:07 2013 No.3905957 File: 387 KB, 496x1000, hitlersdarkmission.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Hitler

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 09:29:07 2013 No.3905968 >>3905259 >Ahab is Ishmael

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 09:31:13 2013 No.3905972

>>3905371

It's autism: the single most threatening problem for /lit/.

They have zero empathy and thus absolutely hate novels that aren't solely about technicalities and patterns and fundamental knowledge.

This is why they hate The Catcher in the Rye and prefer the dictionary to it.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 09:34:18 2013 No.3905976 >>3905775 Disagreed. He's just butthurt on a demonic level.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 09:35:07 2013 No.3905978 >>3905780 Villains also are the threat. Any threat is of major concern to us. It calls to our survival instincts.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 09:46:07 2013 No.3905995

Every time I see that I wonder if Ozy needs a disclaimer that villains of his tier are more accurately called "antagonists" because their questionable state of righteousness is made possible by the literary complexity of the work, not any iconographic elementary characteristic of the character as is the case in comics much of the time.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 09:48:07 2013 No.3906001
File: 93 KB, 567x622, eastern philosophy.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>3905376
Nah, it's outright stated that she fucked some boy at camp several times.

Not that I agree with the poster that Humbert isn't a villain--if anything, this only proves the assertion earlier in the thread that H.H. is a great villain.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 09:50:07 2013 No.3906006 >>3904939 >villain >good >evil what are you, twelve?

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 10:01:08 2013 No.3906025

>>3904951
moron and anyone who thinks like this is also a moron. nabokov deliberately wrote him to be charming to fuck with us and the other characters. there is nothing logical that humbert says, he reads to be deluded and is meant to be seen as deluded, deluded and charming isn't exactly a groundbreaking character. from the way he closely monitors lolita's size and feels sickened by everything she does, you can clearly deduce he's not in love with her, simply a sick paedophile.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 10:03:07 2013 No.3906033

>>3905946

fucking too many edgy randtard apologist teenagers on this board. Just because you read Atlas Shrugged doesn't mean Rand's theories aren't half-baked pipedreams that are totally devoid of any social validity, and which totally ignore basic human nature.

sorry folks, but objectivism is always bad and leads to bad things.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 10:06:07 2013 No.3906039 >>3906033 Yes, there is no middle ground between the equally unappealing and unrealistic systems described by Marx and Rand. Astute observation, brother.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 10:06:07 2013 No.3906040 >ctrl+f Javert >no results come on /lit/

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 10:06:07 2013 No.3906042

>>3905946
>>3906033

fucking too many edgy paultard apologist teenagers on this board. Just because you read The Revolution doesn't mean Paul's theories aren't half-baked pipedreams that are totally devoid of any realistic validity, and which totally ignore basic human nature.

sorry folks, but libertarianism is always bad and leads to bad things.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 10:28:07 2013 No.3906075 >>3905575 What are his motives then? To piss off Batman? Grant Morrison made a Joker who is a different person every minute. The motives of someone like that must be a mystery.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 10:51:13 2013 No.3906109 >>3905454 >>3905775 Except he isn't. His motive works for great tier though.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 11:53:07 2013 No.3906205

>>3905170
Then you don't understand Gandhi. His ideas also fall into what is today deemed neoliberal. He never hid behind collective opinion, so he is not even close to Toohey. He basically gave birth to the idea of "power of one" and had far more influence than Roark would ever have

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 11:54:07 2013 No.3906208 >>3906040 >ctrl+f Javert >only found this Are you me, fucker?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 12:13:07 2013 No.3906240 The HL2 guy should be elder god, there's no way a rebellion could drive off an alien invasion that defeated the entire Earth's military in 2 hours.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 12:27:07 2013 No.3906262 File: 15 KB, 200x316, pistis-sophia-g-r-s-mead.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] yaldabaoth sabaoth

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 12:40:07 2013 No.3906280 Jim Taggart

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 12:42:07 2013 No.3906282 >>3905010 does not understand Lacan

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 12:48:07 2013 No.3906295 Yo, who is that guy in the elder god tier? I don't read comics so I don't recognize him.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 12:51:08 2013 No.3906300 >>3906295 Ozymandias from the comic Watchmen.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 12:52:08 2013 No.3906301 >>3906295 It's Peter Cannon, Thunderbolt

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 12:52:08 2013 No.3906302 >>3906295 The joker from V for Vendetta

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 12:53:08 2013 No.3906306 >>3906300 Google shows this to be right. >>3906301 >>3906302 Ya'll are silly.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 12:55:07 2013 No.3906312 >>3904989 >greater good Go back to crying into the pages of Mill, permavirgin.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 13:26:07 2013 No.3906366 we need more lit characters in this thread

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 13:27:07 2013 No.3906370 Is Edmond Dantes a villain?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 13:41:08 2013 No.3906410 >>3904939 Big Brother in 1984

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 13:48:07 2013 No.3906422 >>3905957 I never understood this comic. Why must he do that? What's the bad thing that will happen otherwise? It makes no sense.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 13:50:07 2013 No.3906427 >>3904939 B-but... in Wind Waker Ganondorf says he was jealous of Hyrule's prosperity while he and his people were born in an infertile desert.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 13:50:07 2013 No.3906428

>>3905049
Existentially threatening, yes. But interesting? No. Because you can't understand their thinking, it becomes something of a non-plot object, and the plot becomes entirely focuses entirely on the protaganist. This limits the plot big time.

All that said, I don't think the Joker is in the Meh Tier, but rather somewhere in between Mid and High Tier because he's trying to show that all people can be broken just as he was. He's trying to show the brutality and insanity that he believes is inherent in humanity. That's why he's constantly at odds with Batman because his morals are unbreakable. Batman will never kill Joker because that means the Joker wins.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 13:53:07 2013 No.3906436 >>3905467 Word. In the Divine Comedy he's really just there to be a punishment for Judas.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 13:58:07 2013 No.3906441

>>3905502
Russia:
>before 1917
more like after 1992.
dude monarchist Russia sucked, but soviet Russia was worse. Stalin's (Trotsky's) five year plans were horribly inefficient and his policies led to Russia being a shithole. not to mention brutal silencing of dissent. You're denying history.
china:
>who is Chiang Kaishek and why did the Chinese people support him
>what is Mao just wanting power and "culturally revolutionizing" China via mass murder and ridiculous propaganda
what the fuck are you talking about? really, go read a history textbook.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 14:08:17 2013 No.3906452 >>3904939 Luca Blight is the exception to your shit tier rule there.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 14:12:08 2013 No.3906454 >>3904939 Hannibal Lecter wasnt the villain.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 14:25:07 2013 No.3906471 >>3906370 If he is, he would fit into high there is this one particular line where he is apathetic towards something because society as a whole let him down and didn't care about him

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 14:36:07 2013 No.3906488

>>3906441
>dude monarchist Russia sucked, but soviet Russia was worse.
In which way was it worse?

>Stalin's (Trotsky's) five year plans were horribly inefficient
No, they weren't inefficient by any objective metric. Also, "Trotsky's five year plans"?? Lol. Just lol.

>and his policies led to Russia being a shithole.
'Shithole' is not an objective measure of anything. By Western measures Russia was always a shithole and will forever be a shithole.

>not to mention brutal silencing of dissent.
Implying that's a bad thing.

>You're denying history.
You haven't made any historical statements, only some bombastic unsupported value judgments. In fact, there was only one historical fact mentioned in your post, and it was hilariously wrong and stupid.

>who is Chiang Kaishek and why did the Chinese people support him
What is Taiwan. They _didn't_ support him, it's a historical fact.

>what is Mao just wanting power and "culturally revolutionizing" China
Implying that's a bad thing.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 15:50:33 2013 No.3906658

>>3904939

/lit/ is not /v/, and god help either if it should try to become the other, but I have to point out that the OP's image his Giygas classified wrong. He is not some mindless entity "obeying his nature" or "just doing what he does to survive". Play Mother 1 - Giygas, there, is a very much rational and vastly intelligent being that gets charged with killing off the earth that his adoptive mother came from, ultimately failing because his memories of the woman make him lose the heart to complete the task.

The mindless thing that you deal with in Mother 2 is a result of Giygas spending the intervening years trying to harden himself against such a thing happening again; he deliberately hardens himself against his empathy for others so that he can complete his duty in wiping out the earth. He goes too far in the attempt and burying his heart destroys his mind as well - forgetting his mother goes in hand with forgetting himself and he goes completely insane, which makes him - already an incredibly powerful being - into the unthinking life-extinguishing mess that you encounter in the second game.

Arguably Giygas belongs in High or Great tier; he was already villainous in Mother 1 but he became the horrible thing he did only by accident, because of the situation he was in and how he tried to resolve the conflict between his duty and his feelings for his mother.

the game's named that way for a reason

>>	Hashtag Slaffykins Wed Jul 3 15:54:33 2013 No.3906667 File: 127 KB, 375x536, eeeee-eee-eeee.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3904939 The bear in Eeeee Eee Eeee is pretty much elder god tier.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 15:56:33 2013 No.3906670 >>3906667 namefaggot shitposts on lit no one surprised thanks for the bump though.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 15:58:33 2013 No.3906675

>>3906488
>Trotsky's five year plans
yeah his idea for an industrial russia is where stalin got the 5yearplans from. wtf are you smoking

>objective metric
people dead versus GDP:Person improvement adjusting for population loss... that's an obvious metric...

>By Western measures Russia was always a shithole and will forever be a shithole
vague, and edgy answer. Russia was awful for everyone save the elite, and Stalin didn't fix that. You're dodging the fact that Stalin hurt the nation's PEOPLE through purges, absconding with freedoms, artificial famines...

>Implying that's a bad thing.
... No, i more directly stated it was bad. How is murdering dissenting citizens good?

>You haven't made any historical statements, only some bombastic unsupported value judgments. In fact, there was only one historical fact mentioned in your post, and it was hilariously wrong and stupid.
>>>3906441
>cultural revolution's effects
>Kaishek's army being crushed
>Stalin's 5yearplans causing damage by industrializing too quickly and only aiding the elite
you're ignoring me, then.

>What is Taiwan. They _didn't_ support him, it's a historical fact.
the communists didn't, and a civil war sparked. Not every person, just part of the population.

>Implying that's a bad thing.
are you 12? of course mass murder of your own people is bad. it's also senseless, unconscionable, and shit-tier.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 16:21:34 2013 No.3906727

>>3906675
>people dead versus GDP:Person improvement adjusting for population loss... that's an obvious metric...
Yeah?? Well, let's see it then. Graph that relationship, you'll be very unpleasantly surprised.

>You're dodging the fact that Stalin hurt the nation's PEOPLE through purges, absconding with freedoms, artificial famines...
Two mistakes: first, you're using 'PEOPLE' as if it some sort of unified thing with consensus. This is especially ridiculous considering that Russia just came out of history's most bloody civil war.

Secondly, let's see some objective metrics here. Not vague value judgments like 'le freedumbs', I mean objective facts. You'll be unpleasantly surprised again.

>... No, i more directly stated it was bad. How is murdering dissenting citizens good?
Most of those fuckers needed to be murdered. Stalin's mistake was that he didn't do the purges 15 years earlier during NEP.

Also, see above: there was a civil war. Most of the victims fell prey to their own neighbors and old civil war antagonisms, not Stalin's shadowy cronies.

Osama bin Laden was a dissenting citizen. Does the fact that Obama murdered Osama make Obama a 'villain' now?

>the communists didn't, and a civil war sparked. Not every person, just part of the population.
Exactly. And Kuomintang lost that contest squarely.

>are you 12? of course mass murder of your own people is bad. it's also senseless, unconscionable, and shit-tier.
Obama is committing 'mass murder' of his own people right at this moment.

Your problem is that you're being hypocritical; you're trying to pin blame with 'mass murder' when in fact your _real_ problem isn't 'mass murder'. Your problem is that Stalin and Mao don't conform to the religious standards of your liberalist creed. If a sufficiently liberalist ruler is committing 'mass murder' you're always happy to pretend that it isn't murder or that they weren't real people anyways.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 16:34:33 2013 No.3906761

>>3906727
>liberalist creed
unfounded strawman. I personally hate the president and think what he's doing is awful.
>it isn't murder or that they weren't real people anyways
where do you get this shit i never condone purges. They're unethical under all grounds. Murder of someone who disagrees with you to silence them is wrong. Murder in general is wrong.
>inb4 trolley problem

You sound like a child, though, really. You never deny that Stalin hurt the nation's average citizen, you make value judgments that people should be murdered, as if you're a Stalin apologist, and you strawman using Bin Laden/Obama. Difference being that Stalin led to millions of deaths due to purposeful mismanagement and power-hungry political maneuvers, and Obama uses his drones to kill "enemy combatants" who are often anything BUT.
>Kuomintang lost that squarely
this, i can cede. but i still think the general zeitgeist in china or whatever you want to call it was leaning away from communism, at least Mao's totalitarian attempt at it.

Your problem is that you're cherry-picking, straw-manning, and insulting me baselessly; you're trying to characterize my arguments as something they're not (hypocritical puritainism) while calling some of the most heinous men in history good guys. You will literally say anything if it disagrees with my posts, because you're agruing with ME, not my information. You want me to be wrong. You don't care how deluded you have to sound for this to be true.

i'm not going to argue history anymore. Or anything. As Twain wrote, "Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 16:50:33 2013 No.3906794 [DELETED]

>>3905546
>The USA, as of 2013, is also violent and totalitarian, yet nobody really cares as long as GDP grows, crime is contained and the iphones are still being sold.
Do you understand how completely moronic and uninformed you sound when you draw ridiculous parallels like that one?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 16:55:44 2013 No.3906806 Judas Iscariot

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 16:58:27 2013 No.3906813 [DELETED]

>>3906422
Could be that he's referring to the fact that Nazi Germany's existence completely removed fascism and eugenics from any kind of positive place in the public consciousness?

Or the technological revolutions that came about as a direct result of WWII and Nazi military research?

Or even that the destruction of so many Jews and undesirables prevented the sufferings of hundreds of millions down the road?

I feel like there's a part I to this comic though.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 17:27:33 2013 No.3906899

Joker should be in one of the highest tiers because he's supposed to be an incredibly unpredictable person who sometimes goes to great lengths to do nothing more than to laugh at Batman. But most recent comic book writers who have handled him have turned down the craziness and turned up the murderous psychopath. Long story short, the Joker is no longer funny.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 17:30:33 2013 No.3906907

>>3906761

The guy you're talking to is a complete retard. I would recommend he check out the works of Alexander Solzhenitsyn, specifically the Gulag Archipelago, if he thinks that every dissenting citizen was an "Osama Bin Laden" who needed to be purged.

His knowledge of history is zero and yet he wants to be right in an internet argument. Just ignore him and move on.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 17:33:33 2013 No.3906916 >>3904939 The judge from Blood Meridian.

Anonymous Wed Jul 3 17:44:33 2013 No.3906932

>>3904939
According to this list, Iago (from Othello) is a "meh-tier" villain.
I disagree with that analysis on a number of levels. In my opinion, Iago is one of the best written villains in literature because his motivations are mainly unknown. He is clearly not insane, yet driven to ruin the lives of Othella and Desdemona for some unclear reason. I think that this is Shakespeare's way of saying that some evils/villains in this world will not and cannot be understood yet still exist. Iago's last line (something along the lines of "I speak no more") is clearly showing the audience that they will never and can never understand Iago, yet he exists.

While I do like my villains nice and sympathetic to keep a narrative interesting, I think that some "elder god" tier villains attain that rank by showing the world that they cannot be understood.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 3 17:44:33 2013 No.3906933 >>3906916 How where his motives "arguably better" than the protagonists? The judge is definitely not "shit tier" but that description sounds more applicable.

Anonymous Thu Jul 4 00:54:33 2013 No.3907954

This isn't from a book but the anti-spirals from Gurren Lagann (the anime)

they foresaw the inevitable destruction of spacetime itself if any race of organisms using spiral energy went left unchecked. (spiral power is basically evolution turned into a sort of power manipulable through force of will) Humans had this capability and because of this anti-spirals cause the entire human race to live underground forever. when that is eventually put to an end they try to kill the human race by plunging the moon into the earth to stop humans from evolving and using spiral powers.

yes very contrived and all sci-fi shit (it involves mechas the size of galaxies and the ability to hide inbetween dimensions and break black holes, essentially ridiculous shit unrelated to the ethics of the villains)

Anonymous Thu Jul 4 03:55:33 2013 No.3908158

>>3906907
>The guy you're talking to is a complete retard. I would recommend he check out the works of Alexander Solzhenitsyn, specifically the Gulag Archipelago, if he thinks that every dissenting citizen was an "Osama Bin Laden" who needed to be purged.
Solzhenitsyn was a snitch and an informer who got hoisted by his own petard. His impersonation of Leo Tolstoy is a ruse, in reality he was an asshole with a deliberately crafted persona which he used for gaining fame and money.

Also, in case you don't know -- his books are fiction. 99% of what he wrote is made up.

He wasn't hauling rocks in Sibera while imprisoned, he was working a desk job as a mathematician in an aircraft factory.

(BTW, he was an antisemite. This means he's a 'villain' now, and you can't use his authority to browbeat anyone anymore.)

>His knowledge of history is zero and yet he wants to be right in an internet argument. Just ignore him and move on.
Yeah, top lel. I won't even comment on this.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 03:57:33 2013 No.3908159 >>3906916 While he's a great villain, he's also, for all intents and purposes, MOTHERFUCKING SATAN. His motives are definitely not better than the protagonist's.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 04:06:34 2013 No.3908160 >>3906932 It's a pun you fuck-wit. Iago is motivated by lust for Desdemona and by the fact that Othello is a moor who enjoys a superior station in life to Iago, particularly within the military.

Anonymous Thu Jul 4 07:05:33 2013 No.3908370

>>3908158

What are you sourcing for the allegations of Solzhenitsyn's personal life and personality? Also I know he wasn't hauling rocks in Siberia because I read the book, he faked being a nuclear physicist and took great pains to avoid general labour duties (because something like 90% of people conscripted to general labour died in the labour camps), just like everyone else.

Anonymous Thu Jul 4 07:11:33 2013 No.3908375

>implying Ganon isnt Elder tier

"Do you sleep still? Wait! Do not be hasty, boy... I can see this girl's dreams... Oceans... Oceans... Oceans... Oceans... Oceans as far as the eye can see. They are vast seas... None can swim across them... They yield no fish to catch... What did the King of Hyrule say? ...That the gods sealed Hyrule away? And they left behind people who would one day awaken Hyrule?! How ridiculous... So many pathetic creatures, scattered across a handful of islands, drifting on this sea like fallen leaves on a forgotten pool... What can they possibly hope to achieve? Don't you see? All of you... Your gods destroyed you!"

Anonymous Thu Jul 4 07:12:33 2013 No.3908376

>>3908375

My country lay within a vast desert. When the sun rose into the sky, a burning wind punished my lands, searing the world. And when the moon climbed into the dark of night, a frigid gale pierced our homes. No matter when it came the wind carried the same thing... Death. But the winds that blew across the green fields of Hyrule brought something other than suffering and ruin. I coveted that wind, I suppose. It can only be called fate... That here, I would again gather the three with the crests... That I should lay my hand on that which grants the wishes of the beholder... That when power, wisdom, and courage come together, the gods would have no choice but to come down...

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 07:13:33 2013 No.3908378 >>3908376 Gods! Hear that which I desire! Expose this land to the rays of the sun once more! Let them burn forth!

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 07:15:33 2013 No.3908380 >>3908378 And as the King of Red Lions ruin Ganons plan, and Hyrule is flooded, the Red Lion says: "This is the only world that your ancestors were able to leave you. Please...forgive us."

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 07:16:33 2013 No.3908381 >>3908370 If you've read his books you'll know he's a cunt hiding behind orthodox mysticism and the only reason why he doesn't lie about the ultraleft dissidents is because he sees Christ in the left SRs.

Anonymous Thu Jul 4 07:19:34 2013 No.3908385

>>3908380

Which hints to the games intro: "The people believed that the Hero of Time would again come to save them... But the hero did not appear... Faced by an onslaught of evil, the people could do nothing, but appeal to the gods. In their last hour, as doom drew near, they left their future in the hands of fate. What became of that kingdom...? None remain who know. The memory of the kingdom vanished, but its legend survived on the wind's breath."

Ganon was the hero.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 07:22:33 2013 No.3908390 >>3908381 What are you babbling? Give me some source on Solzhenitsyn being a snitch but don't give me the shit i link lower, because that site is notorious for making shit up. http://english.pravda.ru/society/showbiz/21-04-2003/2619-solzhenitsyn-0/

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 07:41:33 2013 No.3908410 >>3904939 What a shitty list. Not sure if using villain instead of antagonists makes it shitty enough to be good again or its complete hopeless.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 07:43:33 2013 No.3908413 >>3908390 He survived the camp system. That's evidence enough.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 09:28:33 2013 No.3908507 >>3905010 Enlighten me please. I don't keep up with Legend of Zelda canon.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 09:38:33 2013 No.3908518 >>3904939 >still reading stories that have a villain lel

Anonymous Thu Jul 4 09:51:33 2013 No.3908534

>>3906932

What are you talking about? Iago's motivations are clear as freaking day! He says so himself more than once!

He did what he did because no one fucking respects him! He's been in the service for YEARS, he has an enormous amount of real, actual, battlefield experience and the only station he has is as Othello's adviser! Meanwhile, here comes Roderigo who has no battlefield experience and he's promoted to lieutenant!

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 09:54:01 2013 No.3908539 >>3904939 According to this list, Richard III is a terrible villain, as his main motivations all come down to the desire for power and then the desire for MORE power. Or how about Aaron the Moor? Or Don John from Much Ado?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 10:07:33 2013 No.3908556 >>3908534 "Cut out all these exclamation points. An exclamation point is like laughing at your own joke." - F. Scott Fitzgerald

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 10:12:33 2013 No.3908572 >>3908556 I'm just angry, goddammit! Everyone misses the forest for the trees with Iago! HE'S RACIST NO, HE WANTS DESDEMONA NO HE'S FUCKING CRAYZAY He's a frustrated military man who never gets the respect that he feels he deserves!

Anonymous Thu Jul 4 10:23:33 2013 No.3908593

>>3906932
I'm actually going to make a pretty bold claim here so strap in:

I don't think Iago is that evil at all. Yes, he sets in motion some pretty heinous shit but from my reading it was largely Othello who destroyed himself. Iago liked to THINK of himself as much more evil than he really was and as a result the audience does too.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 10:34:33 2013 No.3908613 >>3908556 where did he write it?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 12:56:33 2013 No.3908918 >>3908572 twix his sheets, othello did his office

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 13:30:34 2013 No.3908981 I know I'm pleb, but what do you think of the Reapers from ME?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 16:14:33 2013 No.3909311 >>3908981 Cosmic horror. Probably mid tier, since they just do what they do.

Anonymous Thu Jul 4 16:21:33 2013 No.3909322

>>3909311
yeah, but they have (I think) a pretty understandable motive. IMO they just want life to be diverse (always new emerging species, while conserving the old ones etc.). And a game that celebrates diversity through 3 games that's pretty neat.

At least I seriously considered that they're right and we should sacrifice ourselves.
but maybe that's just me

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 17:08:34 2013 No.3909454 File: 451 KB, 423x615, GuessWho.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Nietzsche's Zarathustra.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 17:18:33 2013 No.3909482 >>3908981 They were created and are programmed to do what they do, seems solid mid tier to me.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 17:25:33 2013 No.3909503 >>3909482 okay, but then this is true for the one who programmed them >>3909322 I wouldn't necesseraly call them/him evil

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 17:27:33 2013 No.3909508 >>3909503 I don't want to come across as a ME fanboy, just want the opinion about their/his motives.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 17:52:33 2013 No.3909586 >>3905375 >nothing ever ends or nothing is permanent >nothing is permanent literally opposites, get ur shit straight anon

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 17:58:33 2013 No.3909597 I don't like the idea of 'villians,' since I reject the idea of inherent good or evil. Just people who are against the Main Character.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 18:05:33 2013 No.3909616 File: 129 KB, 500x506, True Patriot.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] President Valentine He just wants to help make America a better place.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 18:14:34 2013 No.3909641 >>3905530 Fallout 3 was shit, its plot is just an amalgamation of Fallout 1 and 2.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 18:17:33 2013 No.3909647 >>3909597 The issue with being realistic like that is you need to either make one person an idiot or both people idiots.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 18:18:33 2013 No.3909649 >>3908413 Woah, so this is the calibre of argument bought forth by twenty year old, western soviet apologists. You're one of the people who make the world shit.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 18:21:33 2013 No.3909656 >>3905402 The Joker is a better villain though.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 18:49:38 2013 No.3909724 >>3909656 Joker is shit villian, but only because they use him too much

>>	Bodacious Tatas !ARROW5za.s Thu Jul 4 19:04:33 2013 No.3909757 what about Wolf Larson tier where the villain transcends good and evil?

Anonymous Thu Jul 4 19:17:34 2013 No.3909786
File: 51 KB, 390x828, 1352261498866.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Might be a tad off-topic, but partitioning a character into the "villain" roll is already a detriment to good story telling. Where both sides of a conflict are equally human and righteous in there pursuit of an ideal, but, through the nuances of politics or simply pride, cannot reconcile, such a setting is the primordial goop from which valid social commentary can arise. Pic infinitely related.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 19:19:33 2013 No.3909792 >>3904939 The only one I can think of isn't /lit/, it's the Emperor from the movie Hero.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 19:22:34 2013 No.3909799 >>3909786 whats that?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 19:25:33 2013 No.3909806 >>3909799 legend of the galactic heroes

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 19:25:34 2013 No.3909804 File: 87 KB, 400x305, 1371362858423.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3909799 Looks like it's Legend of the Galactic Heroes. Not a great example on his part though considering that LoGH has a clear villain, the Earth Cult.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 19:33:34 2013 No.3909821 File: 20 KB, 310x400, 600full-michel-foucault.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3905946 >human nature

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 19:35:34 2013 No.3909827 >>3905049 Yeah, but villains like that are usually meh tier, because writers always just throw out "oh he's crazy", and do nothing else.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 19:36:34 2013 No.3909830 File: 30 KB, 400x300, at the very least.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3909804 >implying Yang isn't the real villain of LoGH He could have just seized control of the FPA and ended the war immediately.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 19:36:34 2013 No.3909831 >>3905221 make a thread

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 19:38:34 2013 No.3909839 >>3909804 A shit tier villain itself. The only bad part about the series, and a big part too.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 19:40:34 2013 No.3909847 >>3909839 I think they're more meh tier if you're referring to OP's chart. Like it says in the opening, "In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same." Religious nutjobs gonna act nutty I guess.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 19:46:34 2013 No.3909869 who's the elder god tier villain in op's picture?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 19:50:34 2013 No.3909877 >>3909869 Ozymandias from Boku no Pico

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 19:52:34 2013 No.3909886 I just realised the all seeing eye in ozymandias's chest

Anonymous Thu Jul 4 20:31:34 2013 No.3909952

You can potentially argue about tier listings forever but you don't even have to look much further than Breen in "great" tier to decide the worth of OP's image. Yeah, poor Breen. The guy who betrays humanity to a race of psychic alien maggots so he can live in his very own ivory wizard tower filled with statues of himself. If only I could have joined his side!

Even if you think the tiers make sense, it's not worth discussing whether or not a character fits into them. It all just boils down to "I wish the writing wasn't so fucking generic in my favorite sources of fiction! Why can't we have more DEEP drama in there somewhere?!" Here's a hint: You can just invent the drama. Like with Lavos. You can pretend that Lavos, the world eating parasite, is somehow sympathetic because he just can't help himself, and then put him in mid tier. He can't stop stuffing his fat fucking face with your planet's life force and so you have to go put him out of his misery. In fact let's redesign the whole game to be angsty and moody why the fuck not.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 20:49:34 2013 No.3909983 Currently reading the second trilogy of the Prince of Nothing series and I'm not even sure if there are any real villains.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 20:52:34 2013 No.3909988 So... Where do Lovecraft's Elder Gods fit into this hierarchy?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 21:01:34 2013 No.3910003 >>3906428 wording should be changed to "difficult to understand" but understandable if you pay enough attention and try to put yourself in his shoes.

Anonymous Thu Jul 4 21:07:34 2013 No.3910011

>>3905454
Dostyevski's Satan in Ivan's Nightmare (from bros karma) was one of the most well written Satan's of all time imo. Because you can never tell if he's fucking with Ivan, if he actually is sad that he had to be the one to create sin, or if he even fucking exists in the goddamn book.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 21:39:35 2013 No.3910052 >>3905010 I imagined you pronouncing Ganon in a thick french accent.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 21:55:34 2013 No.3910087 >>3905001 ive have hundreds of hours of gametime in fallout 3, still not sure why were were enemies, were we not both trying to achive the same goal, pure water for the area?

>>	Suomynona Thu Jul 4 22:17:34 2013 No.3910118 >>3909988 At no point in the Lovecraft mythos are their motives explained beyond 'destroy everything', so it's safe to assume that, given their depiction in their origin stories, that they're shit tier.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 4 23:45:34 2013 No.3910244 File: 3 KB, 114x125, mah nigga.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3905049

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 00:42:34 2013 No.3910406

>>3909804

Earth cult was shit tier and a big low point to a phenomenal series.

>>3909830

He could have but what gives him that right? Who has determined that Yang Wenli is the most fit to lead the people of the FPA? Himself? Can he justly make that call, and would he want to? Yang believes in democracy so strongly that he refuses to stray from the democratic system and constitution he follows even one whit and it makes him a very complex and moving character and a natural foil to Reinhards philosophy.

Job Trunicht is the real villain and I would classify him as outside the tier list.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 00:57:34 2013 No.3910437

>>3910406
>Who has determined that Yang Wenli is the most fit to lead the people of the FPA?

It's said numerous times in the series that he's so popular amongst the citizenry that he could get them to elect him dictator if he wanted to.

He also doesn't believe in democracy at all really, at least he considers it not much better than autocracy. He believes that nations aren't really necessary to begin with so he's more of an anarchist.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 01:12:34 2013 No.3910478 >>3910437 >He doesn't believe in democracy at all really Wow... you really have absolutely no comprehension at all do you? I really pity you for your stupidity.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 01:13:34 2013 No.3910480

>>3910437

Also no you're thinking of Reinhard, Yang muses that even though Reinhard is a dictator is that really relevant when his popularity is such that even if there were democratic elections in the Galactic Empire Reinhard would certainly be elected in a landslide.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 01:16:34 2013 No.3910487
File: 395 KB, 1352x2268, wen-li.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>3910478
Are you sure you know how to read? He says a shitload of stuff about how democracy isn't a very good form of government, he just thinks it's slightly better than autocracy.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 01:21:34 2013 No.3910498 >>3910480 I wasn't thinking of Reinhard, it's literally stated in the series that Yang was so popular that he would have won any office he'd ran for. Why do you think all the politicians were so fucking scared of him?

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 01:21:34 2013 No.3910500

>>3910480
I wasn't thinking of Reinhard, it's literally stated in the series that Yang was so popular that he would have won any office he'd ran for.

Why do you think all the politicians were so fucking scared of him? It's why they made him go through that inquiry thing in season 2.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 01:23:35 2013 No.3910503

>>3910487

Because he's conflicted. He thinks democracy is the best bet though in his more lucid moments, if he didn't he would take actions to remove the bad leaders from power and establish a government in the image of what he believes is right.

He's sort of like Jesus who said that taking some place over and making it better how you see it is never going to work, you're just going to be taken over eventually by someone else with the same idea. The only lasting change that can come requires that the people change themselves. Which is what Yang believes and you can see he believes that through his actions, he won't do anything outside his authority as deigned by his democracy because he doesn't think an individual can make that call.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 01:25:35 2013 No.3910504 I dunno dude, what if we like, judge villains based on how well written they are, and not on their motivations, you know?

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 01:25:35 2013 No.3910507

>>3910500

Oh okay, I know that. You did say dictator though so I assumed you were referring to the part where Yang literally states that Reinhard would be elected dictator if it were possible so is he really even a dictator at all?

The moral of LOGH to me is that governments are bad because people are bad, democracy is the bludgeoning of the masses by the manipulated masses and the autocracy will eventually fail like every other autocracy in the history of mankind because non elected leadership can never be fair or just and eventually you're going to have a shitty emperor.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 01:32:34 2013 No.3910518 >>3908385 >Ganon was the hero. ;_;

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 01:38:34 2013 No.3910532
File: 839 KB, 1352x4608, dictatorships.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>3910503
>He thinks democracy is the best bet though

Nope, he says that benevolent dictatorship is superior to democracy and that being led by a supreme ruler such as Reinhard wouldn't be bad at all, the only problem with it is that the ruler's successors may not be as competent.

He only thinks democracy is preferable to governments that take control against the will of the people, like the coup d'etat that took over Heinessen.

Like I said though, he doesn't really believe in autocracy or republics, he's more of an anarchist since he believes that nations aren't necessary at all.

Also your Jesus analogy is wrong since Yang literally says that autocracy is the best way to reform government.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 01:40:34 2013 No.3910534 >>3910532 Fuck dude I seriously won't argue this with you, but if you watched LOGH and think Yang preferred an autocracy to a democracy you are a complete idiot.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 01:43:34 2013 No.3910542

>>3910507
>I assumed you were referring to the part where Yang literally states that Reinhard would be elected dictator

No I was just implying that Yang was popular enough that he could have been elected dictator if he wanted to, which is true.

I mean the guy's charismatic, intelligent, the hero of countless battles, captured an impregnable fortress without spilling a single drop of blood, loved by the people almost universally (even ones that don't agree with his anti-war stances). I mean even Hitler became dictator with a less impressive résumé.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 01:44:34 2013 No.3910548

>>3910542

I know that, and he chooses not to because he doesn't believe in cult of personality, doesn't want to rule and thinks democracy > dictatorship. You or the other guy who is cherry picking some quotes where Yang says dictatorships are okay is willfully misinterpreting the magnitude of evidence that Yang liked Democracy.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 01:45:34 2013 No.3910549

>>3910534
Dude, he literally says a benevolent dictatorship is preferable to democracy. He literally says it in that pic I posted.

His only problem with it is that the dictator eventually has to die and could potentially be replaced by someone much less benevolent.

You're in denial though.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 01:47:34 2013 No.3910553 >>3910548 >show a pic where yang says that benevolent dictatorships are better for citizens than democracy >"lol he was just kidding XD" snap outta that denial bro

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 01:47:34 2013 No.3910554

>>3910549

No he says a benevolent dictatorship is more likely to advance government he also KNOWS that a dictatorship can't be benevolent forever so while he respects Reinhard and his new order he doesn't respect the system of government.

And yeh, Yang says a lot of shit, he was a deeply thoughtful and conflicted personality but his actions clearly show that he wasn't comfortable stepping outside his role as a military officer put into a limited position of power by elected officials because he believes that democracy is just, even if it's not always effective or right.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 01:48:34 2013 No.3910556 >>3910553 Have you guys even watched the show or have you just seen this little snapshots? It's not exactly hidden that Yang believes in democracy.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 01:54:35 2013 No.3910569

>>3910554
>he doesn't respect the system of government

He does respect it though, he thinks it's fine while the dictator is alive. It's only after their death that things become a problem, since they could be replaced by someone worse.

On the other hand he believes that democracy is inevitably corrupt and oppressive, but that it's still preferable to a malevolent dictatorship or an oligarchy or a government that takes control by force.

Above all though he's a pacifist. He prefers anarchism due to the fact that government's existence by definition requires the coercion of the populace through military power, but if a sort of socialist anarchism can't be established then whatever system can function with the least amount of violence or coercion of the people is the most preferable.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 01:56:34 2013 No.3910578

>>3910569

He doesn't respect it or else he would have set himself up as a benevolent dictator himself as he was urged to by people like Schenkopp. Yang could have prevented a lot of really bad shit from going down if he had wanted to name himself the supreme power but instead he let it all happen because he believed that he had to be given that power democratically before he could make use of it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 01:57:34 2013 No.3910580 >>3910556 He might believe in democracy, sure, but he only believes in republics slightly more than he believes in autocracy.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 02:00:34 2013 No.3910589

>>3910580

Yep I never denied that he has a very weak belief in the ability of men to govern over men in a democratic republic but his personal heart and his own philosophy is about as far from authoritarian as you can get and he presents this in his rhetoric and even more convincingly in his actions over eighty five or so episodes.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 02:03:34 2013 No.3910594

>>3910578
>He doesn't respect it or else he would have set himself up as a benevolent dictator

Just because he didn't want to be supreme ruler himself doesn't mean he thinks it's inherently bad. He says himself that he thinks the Galactic Empire under Lohengramm is superior to the FPA's republic.

>he believed that he had to be given that power democratically before he could make use of it

He could have gotten that power democratically, he just didn't want to be ruler, partially because he just wanted a peaceful life and partially because he wasn't suited for the job and that it might corrupt him.

Did you miss the comparisons between Yang and Rudolf von Goldenbaum? They were both in pretty much exactly the same situation, except Goldenbaum was more ambitious than Yang so he got the people's support and essentially was elected as dictator. Then he became corrupt and appointed a bunch of nobles and gave them power and shit and things went awry.

That's why Yang doesn't want to lead, he thinks it's a job better suited for people such as Lohengramm.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 02:04:34 2013 No.3910598 >>3910594 *because he thought he wasn't suited for the job

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 02:06:34 2013 No.3910600 >>3905170 >>3905147 it is unwise to try and determine an antagonist for real life, because there is no set protagonist for them to go against

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 02:07:34 2013 No.3910605 >>3905316 this I know antagonists that could fit the entire spectrum that were well written

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 02:07:34 2013 No.3910606

>>3910594

Yeh because it clearly is better, but he doesn't think a democracy has to be corrupt and inefficient and lead by evil men, it's just that the FPA is at the time when he's alive.

You can't actually get absolute power democratically in a democratic republic because of constitutional limitations.

And no, Goldenbaum was more like Reinhard than Yang. Reinhard often uses Goldenbaum as a negative comparison and tries to set his own government up as differently as he can.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 02:12:34 2013 No.3910614 >>3906282 does not understand lacan

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 02:16:34 2013 No.3910624 File: 166 KB, 1202x1043, School.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3906282 >>3910614

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 02:22:34 2013 No.3910635
File: 595 KB, 1364x3046, goldebaum yang.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>3910606
>he doesn't think a democracy has to be corrupt and inefficient and lead by evil men

He thinks republics always end up that way since they require the use of the military and police to coerce people into consent.

>You can't actually get absolute power democratically in a democratic republic because of constitutional limitations.

Goldenbaum did it. Hitler did it in real life.

>And no, Goldenbaum was more like Reinhard than Yang.

Nope, Reinhard was essentially the antithesis of Goldenbaum. Yang on the other hand is in almost the exact same situation politically as Goldenbaum was, and if he had as ambitious he probably would have turned out the same way.

He's even compared to Goldenbaum in the series.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 02:23:34 2013 No.3910639 File: 535 KB, 1355x3063, goldenbaum yang 2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3910635 2/3

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 02:23:34 2013 No.3910640 File: 2 KB, 160x180, anchor7.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 02:23:35 2013 No.3910641 File: 391 KB, 1349x2303, goldenbaum yang 3.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3910639 3/3 >>3910635 *was as ambitious

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 02:26:35 2013 No.3910644 >>3910635 No I know... you CAN get the power, but it's not power from a democratic republic because that implies keeping with the constitution. See what I mean?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 02:28:34 2013 No.3910648 >>3910644 The Weimar constitution remained in effect throughout Hitler's reign. It's possible bro.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 02:28:34 2013 No.3910649 File: 15 KB, 466x416, triforce.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3910640 maybe i have the i and the r mixed up but to me it doesn't make sense as to why he doesn't put the symbolic at the top

>>	sage sage Fri Jul 5 02:29:34 2013 No.3910650 >>3906667 >Tao Lin

>>	sage Fri Jul 5 02:31:34 2013 No.3910656 >>3905049 Too bad it's lazy writing 9/10 times

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 02:58:34 2013 No.3910691 >>3910650 what's wrong with him?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 03:03:34 2013 No.3910698 File: 30 KB, 225x350, 43804_6482.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >inb4 you all call me a weaboo and make insinuations about my sexuality.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 03:04:34 2013 No.3910699 >>3910698 I had to destroy the alligator

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 03:05:34 2013 No.3910700 >>3910698 Oberstein isn't a villain, he's just autistic

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 03:17:34 2013 No.3910729

>>3910700

>not a villain

>allowing Westerland to be nuked, and sacrificing 2 million civilians for his own machiavellian schemes

>intentionally indirectly causing Kircheis's death to remove competition

>Trying to have the Mariendorf family killed for the same reason

>inciting Reuntal into the rebellion that killed him, once again, for the same reason

Yeah, he's a swell guy, isn't he?

I will agree he's a massive autist though. Dat monotone.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 03:29:34 2013 No.3910750 >>3910729 1. Don't you mean for a war to end sooner, thus saving more lives? utilitarian != evil And 2-4 are just speculations.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 03:39:35 2013 No.3910762 >>3905519 >Most of China was addicted to Opium under the nationalists [citation needed] >that was killing tens of millions of people [even more citation needed]

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 03:41:35 2013 No.3910767

>>3910750

1 The fact remains that he had a chance to stop an attack on his own countrymen, and not only allowed it to happen, he actually lied to his superior about the ETA of the attack to ensure it happened. Reinhard may have stopped it, the blood of everyone who died on Westerland is entirely on Oberstein's hands. Also, it's not like an attempted holocaust wouldn't have been almost as good a justification or eradicating the noblemen as a real one.

2-4, fair enough, they are only speculations, but speculations heavily hinted at in universe, and completely in line with his established character.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 03:43:34 2013 No.3910769 >>3905001 >fallout 3 >Henry Eden The entire fucking thing was a mess, and so was his scheming. shit, if you're going to bring up vidya, atleast bring up something that qualifies as good within its own medium

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 03:55:34 2013 No.3910780 [DELETED]

>>3910767
I don't really remember how it went, but if there would be an opportunity to use the attempted holocaust as an evidence instead of a real one, he would do so. He's not a complete idiot. Or it's like you're taking him for a bloodthirsty maniac who lets people die for kicks. Anyway, it all was for a great cause. .

>completely in line with his established character.

What character? The smart guy who does dirty job for the Kaiser so the empire may prosper? It was even said so outright in the show. Do I need to remind that he's actually one of the most selfless men in the show, compared tp Reuental and Reinhard who is driven solely by ambition? .

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 03:57:35 2013 No.3910785

>>3910767
I don't really remember how it went, but if there was an opportunity to use the attempted holocaust as an evidence instead of a real one, he would do so. He's not a complete idiot. Or it's like you're taking him for a bloodthirsty maniac who lets people die for kicks. Anyway, it all was for a great cause. .

>completely in line with his established character.

What character? The smart guy who does dirty job for the Kaiser so the empire may prosper? It was even said so outright in the show. Do I need to remind that he's actually one of the most selfless men in the show, compared tp Reuental and Reinhard who are driven solely by ambition? .

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 04:06:34 2013 No.3910797

>>3910785

If you read the OP post of the thread, you'd see I'm holding him up as a:

>villain whose motives are hard to find fault in and arguably better than the hero's

Of course he made the right choice strategically, it was just the wrong one morally. I'm not saying he lets people die for kicks,I'm saying that he sees their lives as nothing more than statistics that can be worked in his and Reinhard's favour.[spoiler/]

Oh, and he's definitely an ambitious man, it's just that his ambition is machiavellian, and uses others to achieve his goals, unlike Reinhard and Reuntals. For what it's worth, I'd consider Oberstein to be a anti villain, and Reuntal to be an anti-hero at best, he's damn close to being a villain as well.[spoiler/]

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 04:18:34 2013 No.3910803

>>3910797
And who's the hero? Reinhard? I don't really see how a villain could act as a hero's right hand man. (except in a treacherous vizier way, but it's clearly not the case). Anyway, he even sacrificed his life for the good guys. (and not in a Reuntel's "I'm too cool to apologize and too cool to get treated" way.) That's like saying that Jesus is a villain with nice looking motives because that "bring you not peace but sword" part was clearly immoral.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 04:26:34 2013 No.3910808

>>3910803

Well, we're obviously going to agree on this, because, as I see it the Iserlohn Republic are the good guys, and Yang, and later Julian are the true heroes. Reinhard might have achieved some changes for the better, but they would all be undone after his death. Reinhard fought to subjugate the universe, Yang only ever did so for survival and stability. Plus, he never once wavered in his beliefs.[spoiler/]

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 04:30:34 2013 No.3910812 >>3910808 Obviously NOT going to agree on this, rather.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 04:39:34 2013 No.3910823

>>3910808

I agree with you on Yang, but I just don't see Oberstein as a villain either so I'm gonna have to agree with the other guy. Oberstein always looks at the most pragmatic option, he doesn't do anything that will waste lives and it's explicitly stated that stopping the Westerland nuke will cause more civilian casualties in the long run, it's a choose to not decide sort of thing which would actually be worse than letting it happen. Whether that's an acceptable course of action to you is a separate issue (Kirchies didn't think it was acceptable for any reason).

Also fuck man you know whose death scene got me the most in the entire story? It wasn't Kirchies who died nobly, it wasn't Yang who died alone with his thoughts, it wasn't Schenkopp or Reinhard or that ace pilot guy, or Jessica Edwards, or Lapp; it was "give the dog chicken liver to eat, he's getting old now" Oberstein.

His death brought tears to my eyes.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 04:44:35 2013 No.3910827

>>3910808
Well obviously Yang is more compassionate/good natured/whatever than the Kaiser. But was there really a sense of antagonism between those too? All Yang ever wanted is to drink alcohol and read history books. It's not like he has any alternatives to Lohengramm's empire, he just fights because he was told to. And he's smart enough to understand that war is a nasty thing and calls for violent measures. And people in charge will be crooks and thugs. That's why he wants to stay away from it as far as possible.

Why would you think that Empire will crumble? Isn't Hilde pretty much the overcompetent Mary Sue? Nothing in the ending hints of that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 04:44:35 2013 No.3910828 Best characters are Yang and Mittermeyer with a side of Oberstein and Reinhard.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 04:46:34 2013 No.3910830

>>3910827

The empire will invariably crumble eventually, the fact that autocracies can't stay benevolent forever is a major theme in the show, and the point at the end I believe is that the main hope for the stability of the Galactic Empire might come from constitution building.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 04:50:34 2013 No.3910832

>>3910827

Also Reinhard does a lot of nasty things during the course of the show, he seizes power in a bloody coup, puts to death the male heirs of the previous dynasty and sets events in motion which lead to a large scale civil war with millions of casualties. Sure some of these actions may have been necessary to keep his power which he used to positively transform the government and probably helped a lot of people, but these are actions which Yang would never have committed in a million years.

Reinhard believes that people can be ruled and that the person to rule them should be the most competent and able in the universe, he believes he is that person and that he can provide his people with what they need whether they know it or not.

Yang believes that people are meant to rule themselves without nations and therefore will never step out of the power he's been elected to wield (or given to by other elected officials) and believes that a lasting change for a positive government requires that people make the choice of their own free will.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 04:51:34 2013 No.3910834 >>3910830 And any republic will eventually go corrupt. Your point?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 04:52:34 2013 No.3910836 >>3910834 My point was that any autocracy will fall apart... I never said anything about a republic. Here ya go skipper, you might want to read up on this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 04:52:34 2013 No.3910837

>>3910823

My opinion would fall somewhere between Reinhard's and Kircheis'. It probably had to be done, but I still honestly couldn't condone it. Especially not when it could have been stopped so easily.

I don't remember really crying at any point when I first watched the series. I may have shed a single, manly tear for Reuntal's stupid, prideful death. I stupidly spoiled Kircheis' death for myself, and Reinhard's was forecast two seasons before it happened. When Schenkopp died I was too impressed by his toughness to cry, and when Oberstein bit the bullet i was too busy rapidly reassessing him from a deceitful, snake tongued monster to a necessary, and in some ways admirable evil.

But Yang's death really hit me hard. I actually couldn't bear it. The entire time, as he bled out, I was repeating the word "no" out loud. He could have prevented it if he had taken more men with him, if he'd ever carried and practiced with his sidearm, but most of all, I was disappointed that such a cheap trick was the end of such a great man. I know I probably sound like I was taking it way too seriously, and after a solid two or three weeks of marathoning the show, I probably was, but Yang felt like the most admirable person I ever met, even if he wasn't real.[spoiler/]

I'm re-waching it right now though, and I anticipate many, many manly tears being shed.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 04:55:34 2013 No.3910840

>>3910837

I never cried but my eyes seriously watered at these moments... sorry no spoiler tags guys, but this is /lit/, not /a/.

1. Reuntal waiting for one last drink with Mittermeyer and not quite making it

2. Obersteins death and his concern for his dog

3. "You too Felix?"

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 04:57:34 2013 No.3910842 >>3910832 Oh. Well, we both know whose scenario things went according to. I don't need to prove you who was right anymore.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 04:58:34 2013 No.3910843

>>3910840

Oh I meant to add, I dunno why Yang's death didn't hit me that hard, I knew about it before it happened, so there's that, but I dunno I guess I know enough about history to know that those really idealogical, pure hearted people who want the best for everyone and who never give up on their principles never or rarely make it. I sort of felt that Yang and Reinhard were maybe a bit too perfect so their deaths didn't feel as real to me or something.

Also I didn't really give a shit about Kirchies, the way he was written actually really irks me and I thought it was super retarded how Reinhard treats his childhood friend like some sort of man servant for the first season.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 04:59:34 2013 No.3910844 >>3910842 What are you talking about? Who was right about what?

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 05:00:34 2013 No.3910846

>>3910843

Reinhard was in love with Kircheis, but Kircheis was in love with Annerose. Reinhard wasn't stupid, and he knew he could never have Kircheis for himself, so a certain layer of bitterness crept into their relationship (completely one sided of course.)

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 05:04:34 2013 No.3910849 >>3910846 I know Kirchies was in love with Annerose but is Reinhard being in love with Kirchies canon or just an assumption? I didn't notice it when I watched the show.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 05:04:34 2013 No.3910850

>>3910844
Turned out that people weren't able to govern themselves after all. Their elected government left them on their own, and they had no choice but to greet the new emperor loudly applauding . On the other hand, as you see, autocracy did just fine, Doesn't it prove Yang wrong?.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 05:06:34 2013 No.3910852

>>3910850

I don't think it proves Yang wrong. It's a complicated show though, but are you really implying that whichever government yields the strongest military force is the most correct form of government?

Yangs republic was shit, but he believed that democracy was the only real way to govern, he didn't believe ruling others by force could last, and it can't.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 05:14:35 2013 No.3910856

>>3910849

Assumption, but one that almost everyone makes. He never shows any real affection for Hilda, and even has to get somewhat drunk to stomach sleeping with her. That, coupled with his strange obsession with replacing Kircheis with a young boy (Emil Von Secla, who likely poisoned him), all but spells it out.

I just wish he'd have had the courage to admit it. Rudolph was a massive homophobe, what better way to defy him even after the collapse of his dynasty?

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 05:16:34 2013 No.3910857

>>3910852
Err, do you really think the only reason Reinhard won is military superiority? Why didn't Hitler win the WWII then? . It seemed to me that people of Republic got tired of their incompetent cowardly government and treated Kaiser as their saviour. Anyway, the show ends with founding the Empire and not a single sinister sign, so yes, I believe authors saw no alternative to Reinhard's rule. Otherwise it would end with a timeskip and revolution or something.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 05:20:34 2013 No.3910862

>>3910857

>not a single sinister sign

So the entire series being about an autocracy getting out of hand and shitty to the extent that it needed extremely violent overhauls isn't a bad omen to you? Nobody in this thread is suggesting the Reinhard dynasty is going to be bad immediately after it ends, but eventually yeh, ruling people by "divine right" and by force can only end badly.

And yes Reinhard won because of military superiority... Hitler didn't have military superiority over France, Russia, America, England, Poland and the rest of Europe which is why he uh... lost the war.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 05:21:35 2013 No.3910865 >>3910856 I didn't see any strange obsession with Emil, he was just a page, and I don't think he poisoned Reinhard. Reinhard contracted magic, incurable space aids, surely medical science would have been able to tell if he was poisoned by some kid.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 05:22:35 2013 No.3910867 >>3910862 err that's immediately after it begins... which is after Reinhard ends

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 05:25:35 2013 No.3910869 >>3910614 does not understand Lacan

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 05:26:35 2013 No.3910871 >>3910857 Also pretty much immediately there was a lot of unrest in the FPA over the empire taking over.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 05:28:34 2013 No.3910876

>>3910865

Emil turns up in the same episode Reinhard first gets a fever. He makes creepy, lingering eye contact with and smirks at Yang after he's brought them both tea when they meet. When Reinhard dies, the camera zooms in and suspiciously lingers on him.

Also, I don't think Reinhard was a kiddie fucker exactly, but he may have intended to groom Emil into a second Kircheis.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 05:31:34 2013 No.3910882

>>3910876

Damn, that's weird if true, they could have expanded on that a little, it would have been decent characterization for Reinhard. That's still stupid if he was poisoned though, a civilization with giant floating space stations and faster than light travel has made no medical advances at all?

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 05:32:34 2013 No.3910883

>>3910862
>didn't have military superiority over France, Russia, Poland

That's an odd thing to say considering the way the war went. The Europe got taken over pretty fast, I'd say. And if he could reach England/USA by land fast enough...

Nobody is saying that autocracy is superior to democracy in every possible situation. Opposite isn't right either. But desperate times calls for desperate measures. In this show main events, autocratic form of rule was clearly more appropriate, which resulted in Kaiser winning. And Yang lost, nobody cares if he was morally superior or not if he can't suggest any alternative way other than obeying the will of his stupid government. If he was right, he would won.

Reinhard didn't lose because people supported his rule. Otherwise the war would end with an uprising in hist rear. Or we'd have a revolution in the end.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 05:33:34 2013 No.3910884 >>3910882 Well, it would have been a slow poison that imitated, or even caused illness, rather than cyanide or something like that.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 05:45:35 2013 No.3910903

>>3910876

Damn, that's weird if true, they could have expanded on that a little, it would have been decent characterization for Reinhard. That's still stupid if he was poisoned though, a civilization with giant floating space stations and faster than light travel has made no medical advances at all?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 05:46:35 2013 No.3910905 >>3910883 >considering the way the war went You mean Germany losing?

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 05:56:35 2013 No.3910917

>>3910905
>The German invasion began on 1 September 1939,
>The campaign ended on 6 October 1939 with Germany and the Soviet Union dividing and annexing the whole of Poland.

>In the Second World War, the Battle of France, also known as the Fall of France, was the successful German invasion of France and the Low Countries, beginning on 10 May 1940, defeating primarily French forces.
>On 22 June, an armistice was signed between France and Germany, which resulted in a division of France

>Casualties of Soviet Forces 1941-1945 According to Field Reports

>1941 3rdQ Total Losses 2,817,303

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 06:06:34 2013 No.3910935 >>3910917 What is this supposed to prove? The german army did well for a while and then it was defeated by a superior military coalition.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 06:09:35 2013 No.3910940

>>3910917
Oh yeah, forgot the losses.

>Monthly German military casualties at point the of death according Overmans study

>1939 19,000
>1940 83,000
>1941 357,000

So yeah, Poland and France didn't put up much fight. And USSR fought rather pathetic, thanks to Stalin's great providence. Anyway, I'd say there were a certain superiority over the whole allied forces.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 06:13:34 2013 No.3910946 >>3910935 Superior in what way? What do you think would've happened if Hitler could've reached England by the land? I'd say soviets would've been doomed, and the world would've ended up with Nazi Europe/Japan/USA axis for the time being.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 06:19:35 2013 No.3910950 >>3910946 Superior in that they had more force and power. The U.S.A were pretty fucking super powerful back then, what with the nukes and all.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 06:32:34 2013 No.3910960

>>3910950
What the hell are you smoking? They didn't have any usable nukes till 1945. How would've it helped them if the war had been over by 1941? And nazis nuclear program started about the same time, by the 1945 we could've had nuclear peace the cold war way. And yes, USA became a superpower only by the end of the war, they had no military forces to compete with Germany.

>Total US Army (excludes Air Corps) Personnel
> July 1, 1939 - 161,000 + National Guard (Not inducted) : 200,000
>Total US Army Air Force (Air Corps) Personnel
>July 1, 1939 - 22,000

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 07:07:34 2013 No.3910999 >>3910960 Oh okay I guess germany was totally defeated and dismantled despite winning the war... thanks for informing me!

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 07:23:35 2013 No.3911018

>>3910999
The point is that sheer amount of military power isn't the only factor. Maybe Hitler wasn't the most appropriate example.

Yet if he had chosen more appropriate slogans than "exterminate slavic Untermenschen" before invading USSR and won Russian people sympathy, the war would've ended another way.
That's how Reinhard won against the Republic, nobody wanted to fight for the government they had.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 07:37:35 2013 No.3911036 File: 34 KB, 480x360, this_thread_gave_me_cancer_by_piratesadventure-d5f6o9n[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 07:47:35 2013 No.3911049 File: 70 KB, 576x797, logh.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] /a/ here with his best god tier villain, reinhard von lohengramm

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 08:20:35 2013 No.3911087 Good thread that was off tracks from the first posts thanks to anime shit you man-child like so much. And no, not even your precious Akira is acceptable in modern society.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 08:22:35 2013 No.3911091 >>3911049 Lollengram? Loligram?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 08:26:36 2013 No.3911097 >>3911018 I know it's not the only factor... but it was the factor in LOGH and it was the factor in WW2. Reinhard won the republic because it had crippled itself with civil war and had a much weaker military force.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 5 08:27:36 2013 No.3911100 >>3911087 Woah get a load of this idiot. >>3911049 Reinhard isn't a villain!

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 08:36:36 2013 No.3911106

>>3911087
Why would you care about being socially acceptable? Do you like modern society?

>>3911097
Okay. Remember that time when Yang got Reinhard's ship pinned down? Do you remember what happened next? The republic could win by military means, using Yang's "magic". Yet it didn't. Because its "democracy" was unsuitable for war. Yet you still say Yang was right by clinging to them.

Anonymous Fri Jul 5 08:58:36 2013 No.3911121

>>3911106

Man you're really stupid. Every post you make is so stupid. Yang won a military engagement against Reinhard because he's tricky and got Reinhard in his sights, he was terribly outnumbered and outgunned but he won anyways... not on military might.

Then because of the military coup in the FPA Yang was told to stand down by the new government, it had nothing to do with the democracy being unsuited for war.

Fuck, don't even respond to this, we're done here; your comprehension is zero.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 6 09:07:35 2013 No.3913325 >>3906658 maybe I'm missing something here but Isn't the version of Giygas in the photo the one from mother 2 and therefore renders your argument moot?

Anonymous Sat Jul 6 09:58:35 2013 No.3913407
File: 37 KB, 500x384, jinto_and_lafiel_crest_of_the_stars-12967.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

The "Abh" species in Seikei no Monshou and Seikei no Senki.
Inb4: weeaboo: Yes, but have you ever seen a classic space opera from the perspective of the "bad" guys ?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 6 10:29:35 2013 No.3913464 Does a book with a hero also need a villain?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 6 10:31:35 2013 No.3913468 File: 599 KB, 500x903, doritospope.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3904939 Doritos Pope is Elder-God tier

Anonymous Sat Jul 6 10:41:35 2013 No.3913475
File: 75 KB, 512x768, .jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>Javert
>Yagami Light (except from his narcissism issues)
>Anna Karenina's husband (some think of him as a villain)

Also, you need a Smerdyakov tier (he could pretty much be in all of the others).

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 6 12:17:37 2013 No.3913638 Pontius Pilate, if you can count him as a villain. He kept the peace between the Jews and the roman empire at a cost of one man

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 6 15:49:35 2013 No.3913996 Lancaster Dodd

Advanced search
Text to find
Subject [?]Search by post subject. Leave empty for any.
Username [?]Search for user name. Leave empty for any user name.
Tripcode [?]Search for tripcode. Leave empty for any.
Email [?]Search by email. Leave empty for any.
Filename [?]Search by image filename. Leave empty for any.
From Date [?]Enter what date to start searching from. Format is YYYY-MM-DD
To Date [?]Enter what date to start searching until. Format is YYYY-MM-DD
Image hash
Search in	All Posts OPs Only
Deleted posts	Show all posts Show only deleted posts Only show non-deleted posts
Internal posts	Show all posts Show only internal posts Show only archived posts
Order	New posts first Old posts first
Capcode	All Posts Only by Users Only by Mods Only by Admins Only by Developers
Results	Posts Threads
Action	[ Simple ]

/lit/ - Literature