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/lit/ - Literature

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446112 No.446112 [Reply] [Original]

>According to an article by Motoko Rich in the New York Times, some students in 6th through 12th grades are being allowed to choose any books they want to read for their English classes. Rather than being forced to read Moby Dick and Pilgrim's Progress, they can choose to read the Twilight series, Harry Potter, or James Patterson if they prefer.

The article in question: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/30/books/30reading.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper

>> No.446114

>pilgrim's progress
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

>> No.446125

>>446112
The thing is OP is that schools are having a hard time getting kids to read in general. As long as they can get kids to read they don't really care what kind of book it is.

>> No.446126

That's a good thing. Most kids hate reading and never it do it voluntarily because they're subjected to snoozefests like Scarlet Letter

>> No.446133

>Pilgrim's Progress

No wonder kids don't want to read. What a shitfest that thing is.

>> No.446173

In high school, we had a core English curriculum (that the individual school or teacher couldn't vary because it was tested on external examinations) consisting of one Shakespearean play, one "major novel" (usu. 19th century), one "minor novel" (usu. 20th century), plus poetry and sometimes a film or other work studied in less detail. We were also required to do a large amount of independent reading. Some teachers had pretty rigid ideas about what the latter should consist of, but the best and most experienced had only one rule - that one couldn't read abridged editions. That led to much more, and more enthusiastic, reading.

Which is to say, I don't see why one can't have a mixed approach; and, if the goal of studying literature is to learn the skills of careful reading, rather than to read specific texts, surely either any text (within reason) should work, or the methodolgy is exposed as a fiction. Thing is, even with a class of similar abilities, reading maturity and interests will vary: there's no point in dragging students through a "classic" that will put them off reading and literary analysis for life, when they can just as well read it for themselves later, if / when they're ready for it.

>> No.446182

I see no problem with giving students the freedom to read what they like (lucky fucks), but there should be some standards, maybe literary "levels". Classic/deep literature would be at a high level, and shit like Twilight would be at a low level. Students should be required to read books of varying levels.

>> No.446188

Oh, and I know of what I speak in >>446173. I was fortunate to avoid a particular teacher in senior primary school who insisted on setting books that weren't that suitable for the average child in the age-group, and studying them at what was more of a high school level, despite being in a school where many students had difficult home environments and struggled academically. I knew several who did have this teacher, including a family member, who found this terribly frustrating and distressing, and whose interest in literature was harmed accordingly.

>> No.446191
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446191

This is what they should be reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Books_of_the_Western_World

>> No.446199

>>446191

Aie

>> No.446198 [DELETED] 
File: 9 KB, 250x276, marcuse.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
446198

interesting take on education and high art, give it a listen.

http://darwin.marist.edu/Lectures/pwolfffeb3.mov

also general philosophy podcast thread.

>> No.446204

>>446126
Yeah, Scarlet Letter sucks. However, this is just total bullshit. Even though they hate it, they should read the damned books assigned to them. It can not only prepare them for the real world, but we will only get dumber with every generation if we allow stupid shit like Twilight to be read in classes. Jesus, in a couple hundred years, at this rate, we won't even read books anymore.

>> No.446224

When the students run the classroom, you know something is wrong.

>> No.446225

a moderated discussion on how twilight sucks can be better than reading the pilgrim's progress, just sayin.

>> No.446247

>>446224
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq6lFOhLJ0c

Noam Chomsky respectfully disagrees

>> No.446254

>>446247

Thankfully, I make it a point to ignore communists.

>> No.446338

>>446224

Don't see any sign of students running the classroom in the story; though it would take a confident, experienced teacher with good classroom management skills. I sat in enough HS literature classes in which 80% of the room was dreaming or coasting to know that having a common book in front of everyone doesn't equal attention. I really like the idea of having some common texts with which to introduce analytic techniques, and then using different texts to practice on (with written or oral presentation). Some teachers of courses in literature in translation use a similar approach, having a list of recommended translations, but no set one: this means that students have a range of different angles on the text, and class discussion brings out differences of emphasis, or different points in the original work, as revealed by different translators' approaches.

>> No.446347

>>446254

What an impoverished view of twentieth century history you must have, then.

>> No.446354

>>446254
>I reject you and every idea you have because I was brought up to believe 'communist' is a dirty word

>> No.446375

>>446254
you realize there are many non-socialists who agree with chomsky on education, right? heard of progressive education?

>> No.446377
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446377

the decline continues

>> No.446379
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446379

>>446254
>Noam Chomsky
>Communist

>> No.446383

>>446125
>As long as they can get kids to read they don't really care what kind of book it is.

That's fucking bullshit. There's no point in reading if all you're ever going to read is stupid bullshit meant for middle school children.

>> No.446399

WHAT THE FUCK!? WHERE IS MY INTELLECTUAL FLAGELLATION!?

>> No.446470

When I was in highschool we were made to read books that we picked out. We had a certain number we had to read each semester - 20-something I think. And we had a designated time during the day dedicated to reading our books.

Of course we also had required reading novels and short stories for English classes. And every class had to assign a novel relevant to whatever the subject was... Even math and PE classes. Ugh.

>> No.446499

>>446470
Yeah my school was like this too. We had a book list that we had to choose from. The list was full of famous books but from a variety of genres/times/country's so you could find something that you were actually interested in, and yet was still a good book.

>> No.446516

well what would be /lit/'s choice books for highschool english. what should the youth of today be brought up with?

>> No.446539

>>446499
That is similar, but for the ones we picked out ourselves they didn't care what it was; anything from Twilight to de Sade was acceptable as long as there were more words than pictures.

>> No.446561
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446561

>>446516
This

>> No.446616

never understood the hype with plato. fucker is pretty backward

>> No.446631

>>446616
I don't even know where to start with this one.

>> No.446632

>>446616
The Republic is about one of Socrates' dialogues.

>> No.446644

>>Calling the greatest man who ever lived backwards

>> No.446648

They won't read afterward anyway.

I'm pretty sure that there is a VERY MUCH higher probability to hook a child to reading by letting them choose than by forcing them into advanced stuff.

>> No.446649

>>446644
Sure, but you have to at least admit, the greatest PERSON who ever lived is Ayn Rand

>> No.446652

>>446649

coolface.jpg

>> No.446657

What I like about this conversation is the seeming lack of teaching experience. Having taught a required Am Lit course, and having taught the Scarlet Letter within said class, I can assure you that most anything is better than the status quo.

Most students who read the Scarlet Letter their junior year were not equipped to understand it. This is of course presuming they actually read the text. Of several sections encompassing about 60 some odd students, I would be generous in claiming that close to half of them actually read most (not all) of the book. It is unlikely that more than 2/3 read a substantial chunk (half or close to) of the book.

Believing that a particular cannon somehow creates better students is a fallacy. What you read has little to no effect on what you learn when compared to what you understand or comprehend. To whit, students are generally more motivated to understand those things which interest them.

Beyond that, it is not so much that better texts create better students so much as better teaching methods, better teachers do. The only real question then is what you want them to learn. The medium by which students learn such content is often arbitrary.

>> No.446659

>>446254
luckily he's an anarcho-syndicalist who has criticized lenin's brand of communism quite extensively

>> No.446664
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446664

>>446649

>> No.446666

My opinion: this will force kids to actually find a book to read, which gets them involved in the process. Most kids in primary/high school despise the books they're forced to read even if they're great books. So I agree with the change, as long as kids are reading it follows that they'll develop deeper tastes and go on to read great books.

>> No.446669

>>446657

So we just let things get worse and worse then?

I'd rather fight to the death than give up.

>> No.446675

>>446666
>it follows that they'll develop deeper tastes and go on to read great books.
Nope

>> No.446681
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446681

>>446649
>>446649

>> No.446689

They should continue with thiis plan, but ban certain books from being chosen. Take everything young teen and under and just throw it out the window. I'd be fine with kids reading adult books of their choosing as long as their choice isn't TWILIGHT, SHITFANTASY, OR OTHER ASSORTED BRAIN DESTROYING GARBAGE.

>> No.446701

>>446666
I would prefer they have a huge list of pre-approved reading material and choose what they want from it. that way they can find material that is close to their own tastes and still be able to get more out of it then whatever twilight trash they would have found on their own.

>> No.446707

>>446701

WHO APPROVES THE APPROVERS?

>> No.446708

>SHITFANTASY
>I'm better than you because I read adult books like anything written by Dan Brown

>> No.446713

>>446247
Better dead than red, man.

>> No.446714
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446714

>>446707
Alan Moore

>> No.446722

>>446708
You are a retarded child

>> No.446728

>>446722
You are a retarded adult

>> No.446732

>>446728
No, actually, I am a very intelligent adult

>> No.446735
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446735

>>446732
>Dan Brown
>Intelligent

I DONT THINK SO TIM

>> No.446737

>>446735
You are really, really stupid.

>> No.446745

>>446735
Someone failed to grasp the finer points of
>implied

>> No.446748

>>446737
NO UR STUP1D

>> No.446751

We had a system sortof like this in my high school, but it was less "the whole class reads x novel", and more "each student may choose novel to read and do a report on".
I chose that somewhat poorly-translated version of Battle Royale, with the cover that's several times better than the recent release.

>> No.446760

We did something like this recently. My teacher said I was one of like 3 people out of 100 to do a classic novel

>> No.446758

>>446748
You are the one who likes terrible fantasy novels and thinks everyone who realizes that they suck like Dan Brown

>> No.446779

My fucking third grade teacher forced on us The Sound and The Fury. We were in the advanced class, but still, you instill a fear of classics if you try to make kids read beyond what they could handle. I avoided The Sound and The Fury until the senior year of high school.

>> No.446782

>>446707
they can choose whatever they want from this collection:
http://www.amazon.com/Penguin-Classics-Library-Complete-Collection/dp/0147503078

>> No.446787

>>446758
And you're the one who feels the need to shit on anyone enjoying reading something that's not your OMG SO DEEP genre of choice.

Moving back on topic, forcing "classic novels" down the throats of schoolchildren only makes more of them grow up to hate reading.

>> No.446789

>>446779
I was forced to learn differential equations in kindergarten. WTF school system?

>> No.446792

>>446787
You're the one who is really offended because you like crap books and others call you out on it

>> No.446807

>>446787
If you don't force schoolchildren to develop, they'll keep their schoolchildren mentality when they're adults. They should start reading the easier classics at about fifth grade.

>> No.446809

>>446789
And now you post on 4chan.

The school system DID fail you.

>> No.446812
File: 71 KB, 479x422, Noam Chomsky.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
446812

>>446247
>Noam Chomsky

>> No.446827

I love reading the classics. But I'm older. Books have to appeal to the group that is reading them. The Scarlet Letter has mostly no relevance to modern high school students. On the Road does, but would probably not pass muster with the puritanical school boards.

>> No.446838

Hey that's bullshit! They should have to read all that crap I did. You HAVE to read the leatherstocking tales asshole!

>> No.448322

Kids can read classics if they have a teacher who can make the text relevant and meaningful to them. You know... by teaching about it and discussing it in class. There are a lot of depth a modern kid would completely miss in a classic novel because of differences in culture, translation, or time period. This shit needs context.

Think of what all the little assholes writing fanfiction on the internet like about/steal from their terrible source material... the characters. People like to read about other people. Start in from that angle and they'll probably listen.

>> No.448400

Some of the shit I was forced to read in school did more damage than good. I think I was too young to appreciate them.

>> No.448415

Our school did a bit of both

we had to do Dickens and Shakespeare but got to choose one book we would like

We chose 'Holes'

>> No.448428

>>448415

Holes was really boring

>> No.448434
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448434

>>446827
>>On The Road
>>Classic

>> No.448437

>option to read Twilight

Meh.

>not forced to read Moby Dick

BUT HOW WILL THE STUDENTS EVER SURVIVE IN THE REAL WORLD WITHOUT AN ENCYCLOPEDIC KNOWLEDGE OF WHALING?! SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

Moby Dick sucks a fat whale cock. Same with Pilgrim's Progress and Scarlet Letter and all that other bullshit.

Protip: Forcing Moby Dick down children's throats is the reason they lose interest in reading.

>> No.448439

>>448437
but what if they are Japanese?

>> No.448442

>>448415
Spoliers: You did not actually have a choice. I am a teacher. Holes is one of the set texts. 'Your' decision would have been made many months previously, in a boardroom with the English teachers and the Headteacher.

>> No.448507 [DELETED] 

>>448434


Are you seriously implying it's not? Wow.

>> No.448517

BIG SURPRISE!! Children enjoy reading fun books over dry, required reading decided by some old librarian that it would be good for kids to read through 500 pages of a classic.

Seriously, did anyone actually think it would turn out otherwise? The kids will flock the popular options.

>> No.448528
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448528

>>448434

>on the road
>not a classic

>> No.448538

>>446182
We did this in middle school.

Once in high school we read whatever we wanted.

>> No.449534

>>446701

Or you could turn it the other way round: have lists of books that are deprecated, adjusted for age and ability; and also maintain lists of recommended books - my HS library kept a particularly extensive one compiled by a former pupil whose reading would put most BA graduates to shame. The aspect I really like about the kind of programme described in the NYT piece is the idea of students recommending books to each other. This is how we, as experienced adult readers, tend to discover new authors and books, and it is good to develop the habit earlier, so that students have the confidence to make and recommend their own choices, rather than just reading from a canon (or a bestseller list, or whatever the big publishers are using their PR muscle to get blanket coverage of).

>> No.449540
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449540

>>446399
>WHERE IS MY INTELLECTUAL FLAGELLATION!?

Some of that is this. ;-)

>> No.449598

>>448437
moby dick is a fucking epic book you swine! Although it is obvious in it that melville was insane.

>> No.449626

ig you got to read books in school about fighting, fucking and doing drugs i bet more people would read

but who is going to pick up a hobby reading books, when tv inundates them with interesting action, but they are forced only to read dull period drama.

>> No.449637

For us it was kind of different, they had a selection of classics and you got to choose whatever you wanted. You could ask to read a book not on the list, but it had to be a good book.

This on top of the statutory books

>> No.449651
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449651

They are actually reading "Pilgrims Progress" in high school in the US???

>> No.449676

>>449651

Really? This is obligatory reading in the US?

>> No.449682

>>449676

lolno, although some crazies would wish that it were.

>> No.449705

>>449682

Ah I see. So OP is just trolling.