History thread.

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Anonymous Tue May 6 03:45:35 2014 No.4859191 [DELETED]

History thread.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 03:46:37 2014 No.4859195 File: 514 KB, 933x517, [Drinking Intensifies].png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >People still read John Keegan as anything more than "How not to write Histories"

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 04:00:40 2014 No.4859220 >>4859191 Start with the sumerians.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 04:06:06 2014 No.4859233 >>4859191 >History thread. >picture of Fictional Characters kek

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 04:07:25 2014 No.4859238 File: 31 KB, 429x547, oh sweet lord.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4859233

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 04:08:09 2014 No.4859241 File: 170 KB, 1500x845, paleolith porn.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] start with the paleolithics

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 04:14:57 2014 No.4859252 >>4859241 how could people be that fat as the willendorf venus back then? what could they possibly eat to look like that?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 04:17:11 2014 No.4859254 >>4859252 large amounts of rice and beans.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 04:18:14 2014 No.4859256 File: 131 KB, 268x265, 1394515642774.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >terrence mckenna is the supreme god of anthropological theory how do you guys feel about stoned apes and the return of the matriarchy?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 04:19:26 2014 No.4859259 >>4859254 I don't think that rice and beans were a huge thing in Austria at that time. Must have been quite a lot of berries.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 04:19:29 2014 No.4859260 >>4859256 >return of the matriarchy? women are idle, why do you think invited the patriarchy?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 04:20:03 2014 No.4859262 File: 25 KB, 310x409, double j.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4859256 what do you mean by "return"? j.j. bachofen was never gone.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 04:21:56 2014 No.4859269 >>4859252 They couldn't. The Venus' of Willendorf were the unattainable ideal of beauty.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 04:23:18 2014 No.4859273 File: 1.22 MB, 256x169, GpRr07f.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4859260 the pendulum swings both ways my friend

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 04:24:15 2014 No.4859275 >>4859269 But if everyone was skinny how could they imagine fat people without ever seeing any? Why didn't they make figurines of women with three tits?

Anonymous Tue May 6 04:31:16 2014 No.4859282
File: 121 KB, 768x1024, phallus_1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>4859275
>Why didn't they make figurines of women with three tits?

Because they wanted to fuck some big tittied broad with a phat ass who packed enough weight to survive multiple pregnancies.

They didn't want to fuck a three boobed mutant.

This is also why ancient cultures liked cock statues, because a big dick entailed fertility and masculinity and righteous fucking.

Basically, the answer you're looking for is fucking. Life wasn't so complicated back then.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 04:40:00 2014 No.4859295 >>4859282 Fair enough, that makes sense. And why did the perception of beauty change later on? Back in greece they would push the picture of slender athletic women. For the love of symmetry?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 04:46:30 2014 No.4859312 >>4859275 >>4859252 It's not fatness, it's pregnancy. Think on.

Anonymous Tue May 6 04:49:55 2014 No.4859322

>>4859295
>For the love of symmetry?

Arguably, the early Greeks were heavily influenced by the Egyptian statues.

But also ideals change, with the Hellenistic Greeks and Romans you see another shift towards naturalism where you have old women and beaten boxers with the one and brutal honesty in features with the other.

In some sense you could view this as a reflection of that society's concerns. Pre-historic cultures were largely interested in getting by and spawning children, early Greeks in reaching perfection, later Greeks in the brutality of life, Romans in the individual, et cetera.

Anonymous Tue May 6 04:51:50 2014 No.4859326

>>4859295

I think it started to change when people started to become more settled in their lifestyles.

For instance, a lot of the females in the bible (especially in the first few books, like Sarah) are described as "beautiful" which to the ancient Hebrews would have meant small and quite stocky, which is to indicate that they were well endowed in terms of fertility and also well suited for their pastoral lifestyle.

Anonymous Tue May 6 05:04:27 2014 No.4859353

Since we are talking about female beauty in a historical I have a question that might seem a bit odd. Shaved pussies. They are everywhere in art, no matter in which period. Still, it seems like women actually only started to shave their pussies in the 80s. How come?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 05:06:11 2014 No.4859362 >>4859353 *historical context

Anonymous Tue May 6 05:13:28 2014 No.4859392
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>>4859353
My guess would be the idealization of women. They weren't supposed to be sexual creatures, so keeping painted women shaved draws less attention to the area.

Depending on the medium, technical difficulty may also play a part.

And to be fair, the men were shaved too.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 05:25:45 2014 No.4859437 File: 136 KB, 342x400, jah.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4859191

Anonymous Tue May 6 05:29:50 2014 No.4859454

What are the best voyage books written by people from the XVI and XVII century or before?

I've been really wanting to read these things, ever since I read Gulliver two months ago. I want to feel the traveller's genuine excitement among the dangers and mysteries they faced.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 05:36:43 2014 No.4859477 >>4859454 >>/lit/thread/S4804791#p4804928 here are some of the most famous ones

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 05:37:36 2014 No.4859478 Is there anything good on the Byzantines at large?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 05:49:46 2014 No.4859512 So Beowulf is more or less the GOAT Anglo-Saxon poem.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 05:51:10 2014 No.4859518 >>4859478 This. Or if I'm reading it wrong, Are there any good overarching books on the Byzantines?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 05:52:08 2014 No.4859522 jesus christ was so breavest person ever for inventing forgive pppl ANd they kill Jsus for that cry for Jesus T_T

Anonymous Tue May 6 05:52:41 2014 No.4859524

>>4859353
>Still, it seems like women actually only started to shave their pussies in the 80s
but that's wrong, women of antiquity regularly shaved their pussies
>>4859478
>>4859518
Ostrogorsky's History of Byzantium is the first thing that comes to my mind

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 06:00:25 2014 No.4859539 >>4859522 Are you... Are you mocking Jesus? Wow you're so edgy and fedora and you should feel bad. mocking Jesus is sin and anyone who does that is an edgy fedora atheist fatneckbeard fadora *tips fedora*

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 06:06:49 2014 No.4859555 >>4859524 >women of antiquity regularly shaved their pussies interesting. any books covering that?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 06:10:39 2014 No.4859573 File: 9 KB, 281x125, logo_c.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4859555 http://beavershaver.com/history_pubic_shaving.htm here you go

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 06:14:57 2014 No.4859584 >>4859573 The more you know, thanks. And now I know who to blame for centuries of bushy crotches. Thanks France!

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 06:26:22 2014 No.4859605 File: 265 KB, 592x480, 1365893202741.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4859584 >bushes are bad Get a load of this fag.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 06:31:03 2014 No.4859614 >>4859605 go to bed catherine de medici

Anonymous Tue May 6 07:33:26 2014 No.4859725

>>4859353
pubic hair is impure and belies imperfection, while naked pubic regions illustrate the beauty, perfection, and purity of the female form.

Also it was (and still is) believed that body hair is masculine.
Renaissance women also actually did remove hair down there Caterina Sforza’s Experimenti contains recipes for hair removal cream and that book was written in the early 16th century.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 07:37:36 2014 No.4859732 >>4859725 feminine ideal of italian renaissance was the MILF so i'd bet on bush majority

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 07:37:48 2014 No.4859733 >>4859573 It's actually kind of crazy how prude the 19th and 20th century were compared to earlier times. I wonder what brought it on. I know nofunallowed started in the renaissance, but why?

Anonymous Tue May 6 07:51:36 2014 No.4859752
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>>4859733
on one side there were protestants who already preached thrift and abstinence. on the other side emerged spanish counter-reformation and jesuits who decided to be even more stern and disciplined, almost like SS.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 08:19:30 2014 No.4859804 >>4859252 Bulking diet of lard and bone marrow

« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Tue May 6 09:37:32 2014 No.4859925

>>4859233
That's John II Komnenos and Irene of Hungary, fyi

>>4859260
The fat woman gives birth to healthier children, and giving birth all the time gives them a bit more idle time. Giving birth was important. But most of them probably lived with a decent balance not complete role reversal matriarchy.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 09:44:12 2014 No.4859938 >>4859282 > because a big dick entailed fertility and masculinity and righteous fucking. nigga the greeks purposefully sculpted small genitals because they thought that large cocks were barbaric

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 10:10:41 2014 No.4859991 >>4859584 To be fair, Catherine was Italian. She was also crazy enough to decide on a whim that all the huguenots that had come peacefully to Paris for the wedding of Margaret of Valois with Henry of Navarre should be slain.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 10:16:16 2014 No.4859996 I read The Tyrants by Clive Foss and I loved it, please recommend me some similar history books.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 10:32:29 2014 No.4860027 >>4859733 You could say that it already started with the church fathers.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 10:37:45 2014 No.4860035 File: 569 KB, 1920x1080, j75.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >that feel when nothing to do all day but read Braudel

Anonymous Tue May 6 10:44:44 2014 No.4860048

>>4860027
no, why?

church only began to preach code of chivalry to nobles in 11th century.
before that people still had preserved "healthy" pre-christian sex morals. then, slowly, romantic notion of love and abstinence gained traction, with dualistic heresies, like in languedoc, acting as catalyst.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 11:39:11 2014 No.4860175 >>4860035 waste an entire day?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 11:41:14 2014 No.4860182 >>4859195 >Trashtalking my nigga Keegan You have to explain yourself

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 17:44:21 2014 No.4861279 >>4859522 >>4859539 Both of you are fucking retarded

Anonymous Tue May 6 21:14:09 2014 No.4861871

>>4859478

Michael Psellus' Chronographia
Anna Comnena's Alexiad
Procopius' Secret History, Gothic Wars
Skylitzes'

Byzantine period is so much fun to read, seeing the transformation from eastern roman to something more than that, the changes in the culture, politics, administration (the themes)

Best eastern roman empires:

Theodosius
Justinian
Heraclius
Leo the Wise
Basil II
Alexios Comnenes
John Comnenus
Michael Comnenus
Michael III
John Cantacuzenus

>>	Anonymous Tue May 6 21:20:33 2014 No.4861898 >>4861871 Emperors*

Anonymous Tue May 6 21:21:34 2014 No.4861903 [DELETED]

bus stop rat bag

ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaa charade yoy are

you fucked up

old

hag

ha haaaaaaaaaa charade you are

YOU RADIATE COLD SHAFTS OF BORKEN CLASS

yoiu're nearly a good laugh
almost worth a quick grin

you like the feel of steelllll
you're hot stiff with a hat pin

and good fun with a hand gun

you're naerly a laugh

you're nearly a laughhhhh but you're realy a cryyyYyyYYyYyyyYyyyyyyyyy

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Tue May 6 22:16:51 2014 No.4862112 File: 39 KB, 400x408, Daffy's rage.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4861871 >Forgetting Julian.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 01:47:33 2014 No.4862774 >>4862112 Well in my mind he is still more western roman/classical than eastern/late antiquity, hes right there on the threshold. But im probably wrong. Hes an interesting figure. I recommend gore vidals novel about him.

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Wed May 7 01:53:16 2014 No.4862780 >>4862774 Oh yes. I went straight there as soon as I finished my Norwich on the early centuries. Even found Ibsen's play on him.

Anonymous Wed May 7 01:58:05 2014 No.4862789
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Currently reading David Howarth's book on 1066

Will soon start David Abulafia's bio of Frederick II.

>>4862780

I have the Norwich Early Centuries book but haven't started it. Right after I bought it I actually listened to the teaching company's course on Byzantium so I'm not sure if I'll gain much reading it. He's an enjoyable writer though so I'll probably read it anyway.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 02:14:08 2014 No.4862817 >Implying Camelot wasn't real

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Wed May 7 02:17:36 2014 No.4862829 >>4862789 It is a bit on the introductory side. I loved it though.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 03:20:08 2014 No.4862973 File: 2.61 MB, 1800x3972, 1381397288359.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4859241 >start with the paleolithics Indeed. History of man on Earth begins with the advent of the cro-magnon. Pic related provides a short summary.

Anonymous Wed May 7 04:29:54 2014 No.4863067

>tfw youll never get to be gods appointed basileus and guardian of his church. Tfw youll never have mass in the hagia sophia. Tfw youll never get to blind your political opponents and send them to monasteries. Tfw youll never get to fight off persians, arabs, slavs, seljuk turks, pechenegs, normans.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 04:36:00 2014 No.4863069 >>4862973 Wow, this is so horrendous. Everything is so wrong. It is so sad that someone will read this and think it is true.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 04:58:35 2014 No.4863111 >>4862973 nice b8 m8 now go back to >>>/pol/ you asshole

Anonymous Wed May 7 05:26:49 2014 No.4863160

>>4860048
Christianity held marriage more sacred than the Greco-Roman societies, where sex was not necessarily a ''marriage only'' thing.

>>4859733
Victorian England might have played a part in that. Although you have to realise that the prudence you read about will most likely be written by the people in charge/educated people, who might not be perfect representatives of the common man's sexual escapades.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 05:50:27 2014 No.4863198 So, whats the best book to read about Byzantine history?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 06:38:43 2014 No.4863268 >>4863198 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Busy-Byzantines-Horrible-Histories-Collection/dp/B002OWD4HS

Anonymous Wed May 7 09:34:13 2014 No.4863559

>>4859478

John Julius Norwich's trilogy of books. He's a likable, empathetic, and intelligent writer, but he's writing for the plebs and doesn't make it an in-depth study of the empire's structure or whatever. Basically he just goes through the reign of every single emperor and describes the challenges they faced and the reasons they did what they.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 09:36:13 2014 No.4863565 >>4861871 Needs more Leo III and less Michael III. Also, it's Manuel Comnenus, not Michael.

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Wed May 7 09:51:28 2014 No.4863594 Oh and poor Michael V "the Caulker" Such a sad sad story.

Anonymous Wed May 7 10:26:49 2014 No.4863706

>>4863594

>little Johnny IV is eight years-old when he becomes emperor
>on his eleventh birthday, his chief general waltzes into the palace, takes little Johnny boy into the back room, and puts his eyes out with hot iron rods
>Michael VIII rules Byzantium with an iron first for decades afterwards
>in his efforts to restore the empire, he reunites with the Catholic church, but the union is ultimately rejected and Michael VIII dies an excommunicate to both churches
>his son Andronicus II is threatened by all the pissed off Orthodox factions that want to restore John IV as a symbolic restoration of Orthodoxy
>Andronicus II tries winning their submission by conducting a personal interview with John IV
>1290, John IV, now a blind monk in his 30s, is visited by the emperor, who begs forgiveness for his father's sins, and asks John to recognize him as the rightful emperor
>the chroniclers tactfully avoid recording John IV's answer

Fuck.

>>	Zamolxis !!yL3lXiSNjlt Wed May 7 12:57:51 2014 No.4864034 File: 2.64 MB, 1957x1233, That Feel When No More City-State.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4859220 This. What a fuck is thread without sumerians Commencing feels

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 12:58:53 2014 No.4864039 File: 32 KB, 901x567, Eridu.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864034

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:00:05 2014 No.4864043 File: 133 KB, 1279x812, Eridu II.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864039

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:02:02 2014 No.4864052 File: 140 KB, 1004x629, Khafajah IV.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864043

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:03:15 2014 No.4864059 File: 1.71 MB, 1957x1233, Mari.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864052

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:05:20 2014 No.4864071 File: 24 KB, 640x273, The City-State of Ur.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864059

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:08:15 2014 No.4864083 >>4864034 Nothing gives that feel more than the Lament for Ur. http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.2.2.2&charenc=j# It's seriously one of the most depressing historical texts around.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:08:44 2014 No.4864084 File: 109 KB, 1279x637, Ur Harbour.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864071

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:09:47 2014 No.4864089 File: 171 KB, 1278x811, Ur.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864084

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:11:49 2014 No.4864095 File: 148 KB, 1279x808, Uruk 2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864089

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:14:12 2014 No.4864108 >>4864095 >you'll never ever see this with your own eyes It hurts so much.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:16:41 2014 No.4864117 File: 48 KB, 500x312, Uruk Dwelling.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864108 iktf

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:22:00 2014 No.4864132 Thread soundtrack https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H8_13x3JaI

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:22:31 2014 No.4864137 >>4864117 dat cozy rooftop lounging about

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:23:34 2014 No.4864139 >>4860035 Sorry for needing to git gud, but what game is this? I NEED IT.

Anonymous Wed May 7 13:23:51 2014 No.4864141
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>>4864117

>You will never finish your hard day's work by visiting the temple and thanking Anu for his blessings

>You will never come back home from a hard day's work at the market climbing on the rooftop where your family sets dinner

>You will never smile at your servant while he brings the food and tell him he is a free man from now on

>You will never gaze upon the sun while you eat as it sinks beneath the blue river over in the horizon

;_;

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:25:07 2014 No.4864143 >>4864139 Looks like the Roma Surrectum 2 mod for Rome Total War. Extremely recommended.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:26:05 2014 No.4864147 >>4864139 >>4864143 Isn't that the Europa Barbarorum tho? The one that focuses on historical accuracy

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:27:24 2014 No.4864151 >>4864141 RS focuses on realism as well though. Could be either, really. I liked RS better.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:27:28 2014 No.4864152 File: 945 KB, 614x631, Sumerian Aristocrat House.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864137 The houses themselves were pretty damn cozy indeed, not to mention practical.

Anonymous Wed May 7 13:29:16 2014 No.4864161

>>4864141
>tfw you will never be a pirate in golden age of piracy
>you will never sail the Caribbean searching for plunder and booty
>you will never get to sing sea shanties with your crew knowing they would all die for you
>you will not drink grog with a tavern wench in a backwater shanty town and proceed to fuck her under the night sky

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:31:51 2014 No.4864173 >>4864161 >you will never attend an athenian symposium >you will never attend roman games >you will never take part in the subjugation of carthage >you will never visit hellenistic alexandria

Anonymous Wed May 7 13:33:38 2014 No.4864184
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>>4864152
I mean they had kitchens in 20.000 BC

KITCHENS!

I wonder how far would humanity would have gotten if the indo-europeans didn't ran sack them and later the semites.

>tfw europeans had to reinvent sewers 18 centuries later

Anonymous Wed May 7 13:34:23 2014 No.4864188

>>4864173
>you will never be a palmyrian camel herdsmen travelling from india all the way to Tyre for trading, sleeping under the starry night, sharing jokes with your friends, while the warm desert breeze caresses your beard
>you will never walk back home from the tabernae in your cosy roman village, greeting everyone that comes in your way, knowing your wife has made dinner
>you will never be hailed back into your swedish hometown after harsh months of sailing, seeing your kids a bit more grown up, smiling as you show them the cool stuff you got from plundering
>you will never be a roman soldier stationed in the northern borders, feeling the warmth of the fire and a round of buddies welcoming you after your turn at the watch
>you will never dance with that qt at a bacchic festival, completely letting go, knowing the gods watch over you and going into ecstasy
>you will never grow up in a small cosy town in greece, living a simple life with nature, composing poetry and songs in your free time as you herd your goats, the world a big unknown thing full of wonder

Alright, I'm ready to die now.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:37:56 2014 No.4864201 File: 223 KB, 1240x800, Sumerian Milf.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864184 Sumerians: Using #SWAG correctly since time and memorial

Anonymous Wed May 7 13:44:05 2014 No.4864225
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Thanks to the subdivision of history into "Ancient," "Medireval" and
.. Modern" - an incredibly jejune and millninglus scheme, which has, however,
entirdy dominated our historical thinking - we have failed to perceive the
true position in the general history of higher mankind, of the little part-world
which has developed on West-European 1 soil from the time of the GermanRoman
Empire, to judge of its rdative importance and above all to estimate its
direction. The Cultures that are to come will find it difficult to bdieve that the
validity of such a scheme with its simple rectilinear progression and its meaningless
proportions, becoming more and more preposterous with each century,
incapable of bringing into itsdf the new fidds of history as they successivdy
come into the light of our knowledge, was, in spite of all, neverwhole-heartedly
attacked.

Do we not, for
the sake of keeping the hoary scheme, dispose of Egypt and Babylon - each as
an individual and self-contained history quite equal in the balance to our so~
called "world-history" from Charlemagne to the World-War and well beyond
it .- as a prelude to classical history? Do we not relegate the vast complexes
of Indian and Chinese culture to foot-notes, with a gesture of embarrassment?
IS THE DECLINE OF THE WEST
As for the great American cultures, do we not, on the ground that they do not
•• fit in' , (with what?), entirely ignore them?
The most appropriate designation for this current West-European scheme of
history, in which the great Cultures are made to follow orbits round tu as the
presumed centre of all world-happenings, is the Ptolemaic system of history.
The system that is put forward in this work in place of it I regard as the Cop"...
ni,an disf:(JfJety in the historical sphere, in that it admits no sort of privileged
position to the Classical or the Western Culture as against the Cultures of India;
Babylon, China, Egypt, the Arabs, Mexico - separate worlds of dynamic
being which in point of mass count for just as much in the general picture of
history as the Classical, while frequently surpassing it in point of spiritual
greatness and soaring power.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:45:14 2014 No.4864228 File: 864 KB, 1600x1181, Armies of Ur.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864201

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:45:49 2014 No.4864230 >>4864188 >>you will never dance with that qt at a bacchic festival, completely letting go, knowing the gods watch over you and going into ecstasy Hahaha, your posts are great, but you can still do a lot of this stuff. No need for the dejected feels.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:46:16 2014 No.4864232 File: 88 KB, 381x512, Sargon of Akkad Marching to conquer Sumer.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864228

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:47:06 2014 No.4864235 >>4864225 Is this what it's like to use an e-reader?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:47:19 2014 No.4864236 File: 544 KB, 1126x353, -Sargon-hongnian zhang.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864232

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:48:27 2014 No.4864240 >>4864235 I guess that's what its like to copy text from a pdf to 4chan

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:51:15 2014 No.4864246 >>4864201 it's time "immemorial" numbskull

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:52:19 2014 No.4864249 >>4864246 Oh, dribble.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:52:45 2014 No.4864251 File: 406 KB, 1000x742, Sumerian Chariot 2500 BC- Johnny Shumate.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864246 yeah whatever grammar nazi

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:53:57 2014 No.4864254 File: 21 KB, 343x480, garalex.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Alexander doesn't die in 323 and goes on to conquer the Arabian peninsula and subjugate its peoples. How different is our world today?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:56:02 2014 No.4864261 >>4864254 Not much different.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:56:10 2014 No.4864262 File: 225 KB, 736x1059, Lagash and Umma define their frontier after years of warfare..jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864251

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:57:50 2014 No.4864271 >>4864132 Very nice, thanks.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:59:00 2014 No.4864278 What do you know about the history of the Balkans?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 13:59:04 2014 No.4864279 >>4864254 probably no Islam, and the Roman empire might have been suppressed, meaning Christianity doesn't develop the biggest difference would be that his own empire doesn't fragment apart

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:00:04 2014 No.4864286 >>4864254 The same, only you wouldn't be asking this question. #2deep4u

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:00:05 2014 No.4864287 Anyone have any interest in Irish History? I'm studying the first Fianna Fail government at the moment.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:00:18 2014 No.4864288 File: 201 KB, 736x498, artist unknown.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864262

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:01:37 2014 No.4864293 File: 70 KB, 454x294, Battle between Lagash and Umma.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864288

Anonymous Wed May 7 14:02:05 2014 No.4864294

>>4864278
In the time period this thread is dealing with right now, admittedly, not too much, but I don't know how much there is to know either.

What I know, I know through greek and roman sources basically.

From medieval upwards, just bits here and there. I really should read up more on that part of the world.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:02:14 2014 No.4864295 File: 14 KB, 241x235, 1320480279942.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864286

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:02:40 2014 No.4864297 File: 49 KB, 617x235, Gifts for the Sky God Anu - by David Blossom from Splendors of the Past.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864293

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:03:45 2014 No.4864304 He kids, anything good in this thread? I assume that since it's a leftist board that you're all terrible at history

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:04:18 2014 No.4864309 File: 401 KB, 800x1077, Soldiers of Umma destroy Lagash in a night attack..jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864297

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:04:48 2014 No.4864310 >>4864304 What a great post, I give it a 5/5.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:05:26 2014 No.4864312 File: 168 KB, 736x529, Sumerian Chariot-Osprey Men at Arms.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864309

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:05:47 2014 No.4864313 >>4864310 That doesn't answer the question of "anything good in this thread", m8. You're not even a good shitposter

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:06:31 2014 No.4864317 >>4864313 No, there isn't, well, not yet.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:06:56 2014 No.4864318 File: 59 KB, 800x354, Sumerian Farmers.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864313 fuck off back to stormfront, faggot

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:07:45 2014 No.4864320 >>4864279 With no Christianity we have no communism, and possibly no good Kingship era after Rome's fall It could just be empires empires empires til the end of time

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:07:48 2014 No.4864321 File: 39 KB, 236x333, ee6d7355a4f6fd24cd8f976cb6a7f659.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864304 It was a pretty good thread until you showed up.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:09:00 2014 No.4864324 >>4864318 You to revleft first, and keep your homophobic slurs to yourself, racist

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:09:11 2014 No.4864325 File: 377 KB, 724x1000, Sumerian Farmers II.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864318

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:09:16 2014 No.4864327 >>4864320 No Christianity can only be a positive for world history

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:10:43 2014 No.4864330 >>4864327 I like Kingship, though

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:10:48 2014 No.4864331 File: 909 KB, 970x528, sumerian farmers III.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864325

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:11:44 2014 No.4864334 >>4864321 It looks like an OKAY thread... for plebs, that is LMAO

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:11:54 2014 No.4864335 File: 122 KB, 475x512, Sumerian Market.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864331

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:13:31 2014 No.4864337 File: 171 KB, 736x471, Sumerian qt slave market.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864335

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:14:50 2014 No.4864343 >>4864330 there were kings before christ dude Persian, Greek, Indian, Egyptian . . .

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:16:10 2014 No.4864345 File: 96 KB, 600x749, Ur-Nanshe by Damnans.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864337

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:18:08 2014 No.4864349 >>4864343 I know, I just think Christianity helped in revitalizing that form of government after Rome

Anonymous Wed May 7 14:18:39 2014 No.4864350

>>4859191
Requests,even if connected to the topic are bad and hurt puupies,so here's something nice for you
puuDOTsh/8D274.rtf -or if you are afraid of.rtf hree's a txt
puuDOTsh/8D236.txt
I'm interested in Britain's rise during the 17th century.Would anyone be kind enough to tell em where to start ? Some overview of the topic would be great.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:19:13 2014 No.4864351 >>4864161 that really hurt.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:19:28 2014 No.4864352 File: 362 KB, 1280x851, Ur-Shulgi by Damnans.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864345

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:23:56 2014 No.4864359 File: 84 KB, 800x545, Ur merchants.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864352

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:25:29 2014 No.4864364 File: 156 KB, 471x1020, wpid-Photo-201403031600321.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864359 This is the last nice visualization for the thread, the rest are architectural plans, schmatics and so on. I'm off to play some Mount and Blade

Anonymous Wed May 7 14:27:50 2014 No.4864366

>>4864350
Cromwell and the noble reaction to him are interesting to look at, also the general way the puritans made the regular folk hate religion.
Then the puritans moving to the new world and helping the colonialism with protestant work ethic, along with Joint Stock Companies and early monster capitalism.
Also look at people's reactions to the Wars of the Roses, and guys like Locke, and the Parliament's changes over time.

HISTORY IS CIRCULAR NOT LINEAR Anonymous Wed May 7 14:30:31 2014 No.4864369

>>4864225
Do we not, for
the sake of keeping the hoary scheme, dispose of Egypt and Babylon - each as
an individual and self-contained history quite equal in the balance to our so~
called "world-history" from Charlemagne to the World-War and well beyond
it .- as a prelude to classical history? Do we not relegate the vast complexes
of Indian and Chinese culture to foot-notes, with a gesture of embarrassment?
IS THE DECLINE OF THE WEST
As for the great American cultures, do we not, on the ground that they do not
•• fit in' , (with what?), entirely ignore them?
The most appropriate designation for this current West-European scheme of
history, in which the great Cultures are made to follow orbits round tu as the
presumed centre of all world-happenings, is the Ptolemaic system of history.
The system that is put forward in this work in place of it I regard as the Cop"...
ni,an disf:(JfJety in the historical sphere, in that it admits no sort of privileged
position to the Classical or the Western Culture as against the Cultures of India;
Babylon, China, Egypt, the Arabs, Mexico - separate worlds of dynamic
being which in point of mass count for just as much in the general picture of
history as the Classical, while frequently surpassing it in point of spiritual
greatness and soaring power.

Anonymous Wed May 7 14:48:32 2014 No.4864406

>>4864364
Thanks for sharing m8, they really brought those feels.

I'm still holding on to the hope on being wrong about there being no afterlife, and that afterlife actually consists of being able to see all history to every last detail, or to be a point of view able to rewind or go forward, to inhabit whichever mind you want and really see the world through those eyes, etc.

It's my dream, even if I wouldn't admit it IRL.

Anonymous Wed May 7 14:52:41 2014 No.4864416

>>4864366
Thank you.Do you have anything that would serve as an introduction to the rise of the middle class during/shortly after this time ?Start of British middle-class capitalism,the struggle between monarch and house ?
As always,here's the nice story this time :
https://records.viu.ca/~Johnstoi/kafka/judgment.htm
This is a nice collection of interpretations and analyses from different viewpoints.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:53:55 2014 No.4864420 >>4864416 http://www.reclam.de/detail/978-3-15-017636-8/Kafkas__Urteil__und_die_Literaturtheorie Forgot to provide the second link.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:55:08 2014 No.4864424 >>4864416 The Making of the English Working class by Thompson, maybe? I don't know if it's exactly what you're after, but I read a bit of it so far and it's pretty good.

Anonymous Wed May 7 14:56:42 2014 No.4864427
File: 103 KB, 600x347, hannibal_bloimage.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Were Polybius' historical records of Hannibal's campaign trustworthy? Some say that it isn't plausible Hannibal spent 17 years in the Italian Peninsula. Or that there even was a march in the Alps.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 14:59:18 2014 No.4864434 >>4864406 Whatever got you the idea that there is no afterlife?

Anonymous Wed May 7 15:16:45 2014 No.4864467

>>4864424
A general overview.The struggle between the monarch and the house.Some of the first companies based on the investment of a rising middle class.How England became hueger than the Netherlands.Also the religious stuff and the working class,topics already discussed

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 15:17:47 2014 No.4864468 >>4864434 My overall pessimism. I'd rather live as if there were none and then be pleasantly surprised if there turns out to be one, rather than putting all my eggs into thinking there is one.

Anonymous Wed May 7 15:24:31 2014 No.4864479

>>4864427
I don't know why it isn't plausible to spend that time there. Have in mind each siege would've been months or years back then, plus he had his allies in the peninsula, etc.

I think Polybius is as close as trustworthy as we can get, he was the closest historian to the actual campaigns, there would've been people still alive from that period, or at least, sons of them, so memories would likely be very fresh, and he would've met with harsh criticism would he have made up extremely ridiculous claims. I mean, the historians were harsh critics of each other, Polibius himself not excluded. We would've had plenty rival historians calling him up on his bullshit rather than being almost universally aknowledged.

Not to mention he had access to the archives, etc. Of course he was biased for Rome on one hand and for the Scipios on the other.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 15:39:50 2014 No.4864505 >>4864287 junior cert pleb. get back to studying, isnt it nearly june?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 15:42:36 2014 No.4864516 >>4863067 I know those feelings you should play Crusader Kings 2, its the closest thing available on this earth

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 16:45:10 2014 No.4864687 >>4864427 He practically held half of Italy with bunch of Italic allies so he wasn't just camping around in Rome's vicinity his whole time.

Anonymous Wed May 7 16:46:53 2014 No.4864697
File: 273 KB, 1138x884, fgdgfd.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Been reading Runciman's Crusades and Christansen's Northern Crusades the last few days. Good to be reading something from cover to cover and not in little bits prescribed on a syllabus.

>>4864147
>>4864143
>>4864139
Yeah it's Europa Barbarorum. Never played RS2, but I've heard good things about it as well.

EB is good but kind of weird on how it does difficulty. I don't think it's THAT punishing to have to either conquer shit disband most of your dudes to avoid an early deficit, often tolerating a deficit for a decade or two either way, but it's kind of confusing for newbies who would prefer to get a more straightforward and relaxed campaign start.

But whatever, the real fun comes from reading the endless amount of text in the game. Pic related: every four turns (i.e. seasons, so every year) you get a "this year in history" that tells you the date by some of the major schemes then in use, and a description of what actually happened, as opposed to the alt history scenario you've started. It's a little dense on the details if you don't know anything at all but still fun. The unit/building descriptions are all really good, too. Best mechanic is probably the various revolutions (Marian, Augustan e.g.) that different states can go through, most of which has to be handled by endless scripting to get over the game's hardcoding limits.

Anonymous Wed May 7 16:47:43 2014 No.4864700

>>4859191
on the left it reads:

>Αυτοκρατωρ Ρωμαιον ο Κομνηνος
Emperor of Romans Komnenos

>Ιω ενχωτω θω πιρογραγιας
not sure. I think "Son, -on this earth- -of God- . Aka the Emperor is gods representative on this world

>Πορφυρογενητος
Born in the purple

center:
>ΜΡ ΘΥ
should stand for Μαρια, Mary mother of jesus, and Θεος Υιος, God, Son (of God)

right:
>Ειρηνη
Irene

>Ευσεβεστατη
aka Σεβαστη, literally "most respectable", meaning she is a noble of high rank

>Αιγωστα

no idea

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 16:50:44 2014 No.4864713 >>4864700 >Αιγωστα Arguably the easiest one m8, "Augusta".

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 16:56:04 2014 No.4864729 >>4864700 It's so shitty the way the writing is cut like that and made to fit the spaces, it seems like a child did that, compared to classical roman monuments and titles.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 16:57:09 2014 No.4864733 >>4864406 Whatever got you the idea that there is no afterlife?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 16:58:15 2014 No.4864740 >>4864468 You should try doing an Out of Body Experience It personally guaranteed for me that there is an afterlife

Anonymous Wed May 7 17:02:29 2014 No.4864752

>>4864713
aaah yes you're right

>>4864729
>the writing is cut like that

its not cut. Its pebbles! lots and lots of pebbles assembled next to each other

>>4859191
another detail: the emperor has a pouch (money) and Irene has a scroll (diplomatic agreement/alliance). Also, notice how little christ is giving the hand gesture towards the emperor and pointing the scroll at Irene, giving the emperor his blessing and promoting diplomacy towards the hungarians who were pagans at the time

Anonymous Wed May 7 17:03:11 2014 No.4864758
File: 14 KB, 313x300, AlaricTheGothDetail (1).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

What was the real goal of Alaric's campaigns against Rome? Did he really wanted a position of magister militum, or did he simply wanted to screw around with Romans, looting and blackmailing them?

Anonymous Wed May 7 17:08:04 2014 No.4864773

>>4864752
>its not cut. Its pebbles! lots and lots of pebbles assembled next to each other

I know it's pebbles, but it is cut, they could've just written below or on top and make it clear and more readable instead of having to cut the text smaller in some part so it would fit, etc.

it feels so unprofessional and so unbecoming to political propaganda when compared to the straight, clear writing in classical monuments.

But yeah, all their art in general just seems shittier anyway.

Anonymous Wed May 7 17:16:57 2014 No.4864800

>>4864758
Probably both are the same thing. No one raised south of the Danube wants to be north of it. I really doubt he wanted to be some kind of barbarian king. What he wanted was the same thing as the other eight thousand barbarian dicks of his stripe: a cosy place to set up your family as a dynasty with a bunch of offices, access to imperial supply depots for your contingents, and no threats inside the empire to your power base. With enough power you can even mediate successions, like Asper and the Isaurians, Ricimer, Aetius, etc. To be the magister militum at that point, and especially in the century after it, was probably the best thing you could get.

Anonymous Wed May 7 17:23:38 2014 No.4864815

>>4859233
First off, Not Jesus.

Secondly, Jesus existed you cretin. He's mentioned in both Taciturn,a Roman, and Josephus's, A Jew, work. You can deny all that miracle shit as fairy tales, but the man existed.

Third, Who cares if it was a fictional character. I bet if that was a greek vase with Perseus on it you wouldn't have posted for worth. It's a work of art placed in a historical time frame, so regardless of the fucked up biased outlook of history you look at, it still has a place in a history thread. Fucking Phillistine!

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 17:25:52 2014 No.4864822 >>4864815 >Taciturn top kek

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 17:29:13 2014 No.4864830 >>4864822 You finna try me? I hve graduated top of my class with a major in history.

Anonymous Wed May 7 17:31:26 2014 No.4864839

>>4864800
It confuses me how he first attained a profitable position of magister militum in Illyricum, and then 5 years later he appeared in Italy ready to fight. My guess is that he thought how Stilicho was trying to use him as a tool for his own gaining of Illyricum. He probably envied Stilicho a lot and wanted to achieve his influence but had no idea how, so he just wandered around, fighting and sacking.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 17:37:39 2014 No.4864856 File: 42 KB, 793x581, jesus sources overview.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4864815 >>4864830 u dun goofd

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 17:38:07 2014 No.4864858 >>4864830 Top of the Class in the Navy Seals, I'm sure

Anonymous Wed May 7 17:39:37 2014 No.4864864

>>4864839
It's definitely generally assumed that Stilicho was trying to use him as a weapon against the Eastern Empire. I also remember Kenneth Harl agreeing with you there, saying that "Alaric basically just wanted to be Stilicho", i.e. have his position ratified officially so he could stop being an outlaw. I mean, it had already happened with the Goths like ten fucking times.

If you're interested, the opening chapters of J.B. Bury's Later Roman Empire deal with it in great detail, right down to the campaigns and (presumed) agreements/negotiatons of Stilicho and Alaric regarding Constantinople, settlements, etc. And of course it's laden with footnotes so you can get all the sources behind his interpretations.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 17:44:34 2014 No.4864876 >>4864864 >J.B. Bury's Later Roman Empire Not him, but thanks for the rec. Already found it and read the first couple of pages, looks good. God, I love internet.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 17:48:36 2014 No.4864885 >>4864864 Bury is an amazing historian. I've read Invasion of Europe by Barbarians, that was the book that got me hooked up on late Roman Empire and its fall. Didn't read that one, i'll look it up.

Anonymous Wed May 7 17:55:58 2014 No.4864909

>>4864876
>>4864885
Hope you guys enjoy, I think I'm gonna read Invasion now oddly enough. Bury is fucking amazing.

Weird request - If either of you runs into a quote early in that book, something about the "murkiness" of Late Antiquity, I think comparing it with oil in water or something (?), please post it. For some reason, every time I skim, I can't find it. But it was something that really struck me years ago.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 17:57:22 2014 No.4864916 >>4864909 Leave some contact info and I'll let you know if I do, doubt this thread will last long.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 20:07:48 2014 No.4865394 File: 202 KB, 268x320, 1397941192045.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >Gibbon >Still relevant

Anonymous Wed May 7 20:51:53 2014 No.4865533
File: 682 KB, 500x283, SempaiIsPleased.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>4864909
>>4864916

Fear not, Anons. I shall endeavour to keep this thread alive until an answer can be found.

It's rare threads like these, where people actually help each other out, that keep me coming back to this cesspool of a website.

Love you guys.

No Homo.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 21:24:23 2014 No.4865638 >>4859938 1. That doesn't mean that representations of large cock didn't signify fertility 2. There are greek representations of large cock. The concern with civilized and barbaric iconography wasn't the main idea of these images.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 21:38:28 2014 No.4865692 >>4864479 >Of course he was biased for Rome on one hand and for the Scipios on the other. What do you mean 'on one hand and the other'?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 22:13:35 2014 No.4865827 >>4864294 You don't need to, it's all barbarians on their way to sack Greece or Rome until the Bulgarians and a little alter the Magyars stabilize the region, and shortly after that it's all basically just Byzantine and then Ottoman power games.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 22:29:49 2014 No.4865893 >>4865638 Weren't the satyrs supposed to be swingin' elephant trunks on their hips?

Anonymous Wed May 7 22:35:37 2014 No.4865914

>>4865893
generally speaking greeks/romans identified big dicks as a sign of uncivilised/bestial/brutish character, big tits as a sign of whorishness, etc.

any statue idealising a human will have slight genitalia + breasts. the few exceptions like priapus are intentionally subversions of the trope, i.e. they are recognisably lascivious and bestial from the giant cocks. satyrs are not human or urbane

>>	Anonymous Wed May 7 22:58:39 2014 No.4865983 and the foundations of our modern "western" societies, fool! medieval is of utmost importance.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 8 05:54:15 2014 No.4867234 bump

>>	Anonymous Thu May 8 09:31:55 2014 No.4867708 >>4865692 Because english is not my first language and I fucked up the use of that expression. I just meant that he's biased for Rome and, within Rome, he's biased for the Scipios.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 8 09:32:55 2014 No.4867711 >>4865983 History is not important.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 8 09:34:07 2014 No.4867715 >>4867711 neither are you, dweeb

>>	Anonymous Thu May 8 13:48:59 2014 No.4868412 >>4859191 start with the serbs.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 8 15:17:35 2014 No.4868730 Anybody have an good podcasts? I have nothing to listen to during my commute.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 8 15:36:26 2014 No.4868823 >>4868730 already know melvyn bragg's show? http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qykl/episodes/guide

>>	Anonymous Thu May 8 15:39:57 2014 No.4868840 >>4867711 Everything you know is history. Everything everyone knows is history.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 8 15:41:35 2014 No.4868847 >>4868823 I believe I listened to the Medici podcast but none of the others. Thanks.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 8 20:48:35 2014 No.4870084 bump

>>	Anonymous Fri May 9 02:40:55 2014 No.4871155 >>4867708 Understood, thanks .

>>	Anonymous Fri May 9 14:17:34 2014 No.4872550 File: 43 KB, 510x510, 1393893269482.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4859191 >history

Anonymous Fri May 9 17:01:56 2014 No.4873011

>>4864188
>You will never be first among the Court Philosophers of the Kushan Empire
>You will never experience life in an empire that existed at the meeting point of Rome, Persia, India and China.
>You will never debate with priests, philosophers and gurus from the entire world
>You will never be the erastes of a cute little heir apparent shota, teaching him in the art of wisdom, gymnastics and writing.
>He'll never arrive at your chambers, dressed only in a transparent silken cloth, asking for "evening lessons"

Well, honestly I'd rather live in some sci-fi anarchy utopia but still.

Anonymous Fri May 9 18:55:52 2014 No.4873444

What are some good books on the late western roman empire? I dont mean works by writers if that era. Ive been wanting to span my knowledge on it. I really dont know how much it differed from the earlier Principate, who were the emperors (sure I can name drop some), etc. When did peoplr start prostrating themselves in front of the emperor? I heard that started in the 300s, the office if emperor being more and more autocratic, dropping any of the disguises (if it had any) it had of being the first among equals

Also, byzantine art is the best. Basileus Romaion 4 lyf

>>	Anonymous Fri May 9 20:08:14 2014 No.4873650 File: 118 KB, 900x587, 1396404457645.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] What should I read for a solid general world history?

Anonymous Fri May 9 20:18:47 2014 No.4873680

>>4873444
A.H.M Jones' Late Roman Empire and/or J.B. Bury's Late Roman Empire, for a good survey
Gibbon's Decline couldn't hurt either
Peter Brown's World of Late Antiquity for the feel

Above though obviously 'outdated' by more recent piecemeal stuff should give you your bearings in the period

>I really dont know how much it differed from the earlier Principate
The Third Century Crisis really prompted a drastic reimagining and bolstering by Diocletian and his successors. He inaugurates what is commonly called the Dominate, as opposed to the Principate, because the Emperor stopped being a Princeps or primus inter paries, and started being a Dominus, lord/master. Proskynesis is generally thought to have been introduced by him, part and parcel of his big PR campaign to promote the majesty of the imperial office(s), well in line with Eastern custom, and put the central state on a strong footing. He retired in 305, fading from relevance after 308, and died around 313.

The office did become more autocratic, court and royal ceremonial was augmented significantly, and the entire state apparatus was overhauled to be a salaried and extremely regularised bureaucracy, rather than the cursus honorum style decurion class serving out of their own coffers for the honour of it. Part of his reimagining, seen as necessary given the new threats the empire was facing (northern barbarians + new Sasanian empire replacing Parthia), and its numerous trips to the brink in recent decades. Diocletian's Tetrarchy scheme collapsed on its first outing, but it's good evidence of his general plan: kit the empire out with a state and military framework that can actually manage and defend it.

All of this is is standard shit, covered in the above works, and any surveys of the period really. Everything I'm saying here is easy to grasp, no worries.

>>4873650
I don't know of any huge clunky grand history of the world that I'd recommend to a beginner, and I'm actually a fan of those kinds of things. I've just never run into one that fit the bill.

H.G. Wells has two really nice 'history of everything' books, one about 250 pages, the other about 1000. Think one is called A Short History of the World. They're about a century old but honestly that's always been preferable to me, because you get the barebones schoolboy narrative, and can start adding nuance on to it from there.

There is Durant, a huge multivolume serise, but I can't vouch for it. Sidenote: Stay away from Norman Davies' Europe.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 9 20:28:02 2014 No.4873706 What's a good book that focuses on Rome and it's military campaigns? Maybe a focus on Scipio and Carthage, or even Constatine, or just a general all-around book about their history.

Anonymous Fri May 9 20:43:42 2014 No.4873746
File: 1.75 MB, 267x197, 1375697491279.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>4873680
What about Guns, Germs, and Steel, or, A People's History of the World.

People have referred those to me several times.

Thanks for the rec though. It being a century old makes me skeptical, but ill definitely check it out

>>	Anonymous Fri May 9 20:52:27 2014 No.4873767 File: 32 KB, 1375x579, uoft.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4873680 NMC377?

Anonymous Fri May 9 21:01:13 2014 No.4873788
File: 57 KB, 478x544, bbtb.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>4873767
This is starting to get downright weird, man. How's it going?

>>4873746
Not sure about the latter, though a quick google makes it seem like it's explicitly Marxist (or some variant). Not that there's anything wrong with that, if it's your thing. I just can't vouch for it.

GG&S on the other hand is the book everybody loves to hate. It's more of an argument for why different civilisations developed differently (read: why Europe colonised Africa and not the other way around), not really a narrative history IIRC. But I'd definitely check out some criticisms of it either way, they tend to be really really heated. Like all caps FUCK JARED DIAMOND heated.

No worries bro, I just recommend Wells if you literally don't even know when the French revolution was, that kind of thing. It's just my taste, I like to get the really bare chronological narrative first. Not necessarily for everyone.

Anonymous Fri May 9 21:05:02 2014 No.4873800

>>4873680

How different (or similar) were the tactics employed by the late western romans? More importance on cavalry, conscripts and allies, right? When did they stop using the classic look that now we associate with the roman soldier? The square shield, laminar/plate (?) armor..

Anonymous Fri May 9 21:09:46 2014 No.4873816
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>>4873788
Oh, maybe I mislead you.

I definitely have some backing in history, took AP Euro, AP Amer. and AP World.

I wish I could remember my texts, my euro one was very, very dry and the author's name started with a k. Very good book.

That being said, I remember large events like the French Revolution, but not smaller ones, like say, when exactly the war of four Henry's in France took place. I do remember the first Henry, the best one, got speared in the fucking eye at a celebration in his honor. Poor bastard

Anonymous Fri May 9 21:14:09 2014 No.4873830
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>>4873680
>There is Durant, a huge multivolume serise, but I can't vouch for it.

Well, i think i can, i'm still reading it (4th volume by now) and loving it, but it has problems. Certain parts are outdated and one of the overall themes of "Eastern mysticism corrupting Western rationality" made me finally agree with Edward Said that "Orientalism" was real. Another problem (for other people, not for me) is that it presents history as cyclical, something that is not much popular compared to whig historians like Wells and the Marxist school of historical materialism.

If that is your thing, go for it, or even if you don't agree with his theme and interpretations, the narrative is too good and even when he speaks of economy, culture and society he is not boring like bean-counting historians of Annales school.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 9 22:19:34 2014 No.4874092 Who are some essential historians? I'm thinking about majoring in history in college and would like to get ahead on the game by reading some essential works.

Anonymous Sat May 10 00:42:17 2014 No.4874584
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>>4873767
>>4873788

This is indeed weird...

Forgive me; I've started to recognize the style of your posts, on the basis of their useful recommendations and perspicacious commentary on things Late Antique.

We've got to talk in person, man.

Shoot me an email if you're so inclined.

In other news, only nineteen more days before the 561st anniversary of the rape of the Queen of Cities. Osman's brood have trampled on everything I've ever loved...

>;____;

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Sat May 10 01:24:34 2014 No.4874695 >>4874092 Braudel Tuchman Goodwin Hobsbawm Zinn Durant? And of course the old source historians. That should keep you busy for a few years.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 10 01:30:44 2014 No.4874704 >>4874695 Have you actually read them?

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Sat May 10 02:22:41 2014 No.4874770 >>4874704 Some. recommending some only by reputation.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 10 02:26:43 2014 No.4874772 >>4874092 depends on which topic youre going to study. for example if youre interested in islamic history none of the 'essential historians' in that list will make it onto the list of 'essential' welding historians

>>	Anonymous Sat May 10 03:13:30 2014 No.4874818 What are the primary sources for the Byzantine empire? I

Anonymous Sat May 10 03:19:13 2014 No.4874826

>>4874092
Mate, historians will only be a minor part of your studies. Studying history (atleast at my uni) is 1.5 years of learning everything at an entry level from textbooks, supported by historiographic discussion, after which you can choose an era/theme that you're interested in (war, religion, social history, philosophy, mythology, etc).

I've passed my first year without having read more than 20 pages of either: Hobsbawm, Braudel, Judt or anyone else, really.

If you want to get ahead of the game, get textbooks or books regarding ''the facts'' of a certain era, rather than diving into historiographic discussions.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 10 03:53:38 2014 No.4874866 >>4864740 elaborate

>>	Anonymous Sat May 10 04:01:34 2014 No.4874868 >>4864740 >Not realising it's your brains final convulsions >Not realising your brain is all there is to even give you the idea of an afterlife, to even give you the conception of living in the first place >Being this retarded

>>	Anonymous Sat May 10 04:22:56 2014 No.4874898 >>4873680 What's wrong with Norman Davies' Europe?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 10 05:06:33 2014 No.4874941 >>4874826 Where do you go?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 10 05:15:36 2014 No.4874948 >>4874941 Utrecht (The Netherlands)

Anonymous Sat May 10 05:39:53 2014 No.4874970

>>4874818
Lactantius
Eusebius of Caesarea
Ammianus
Zosimus
Procopius of Caesarea
John Malalas
Nikephoros
Theophanes the Confessor
Symeon the Logothete
Leo the Deacon
Liutprand
John Skylitzes
Michael Psellos
Anna Komnene
John Zonaras
John Kinnamos
Niketas Choniates

>>	Anonymous Sat May 10 06:07:59 2014 No.4874996 >>4874948 What's it like? I've heard the Netherlands unis are pretty nice.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 10 06:19:06 2014 No.4875010 >>4873706 The Fall of Carthage, by Adrian Goldsworthy Goldsworthy for Roman military history in general.

Anonymous Sat May 10 06:32:19 2014 No.4875022

>>4874996
It's pretty good. The uni's are nice because there is a much higher entry qualification needed than in other countries (around 20% of people in Holland is eligible, whereas it's roughly 50% in England) so it's just harder in general (presitigious unis in England or high end studies not included).

I'd still say it's relatively easy though. I have 2 courses per semester, and I have to read roughlt 150-200 pages a week or so. Tests are pretty easy aswell.

Anonymous Sat May 10 06:38:32 2014 No.4875029

>>4874092
Speaking from experience a basic good grounding in the area of history you'll be studying will serve you well.Even just some entry-level books by, say, Beevor on WW2 would help. If possible check out their freshman handbook if available and work off of that. First year is mostly introductory stuff where they make sure you know your events and can craft a reasonable narrative from it. If you know what happened already you'll have the definite edge. You'll want to do some of the readings for context but you'll mostly be working off of your notes.
In the next years it gets more specialized and you are already expected to know your events well. Historiography doesn't tend to be so important in the first year but it depends on the time period taken (a freshman introductory medieval module will not have heaps of historiography), thought it comes in handy for scholarship exams.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 10 06:44:33 2014 No.4875039 >>4859241 dat ass

Anonymous Sat May 10 10:05:43 2014 No.4875325

>>4865827
not really.
check out lepenski vir for prehistory. also vinča culture.
one more interesting thing is slavic migration, it is very uncertain when it happened (the 6th century is official date). also the south slavs had gods and mythology very similar to nordic, because the nordic tribes borrowed a big part of it. but historical resources are thin, mostly because of christians, commies destroying it. german history revisions didnt help either
also medieval balkans has so much habbenings and epic battles (and poetry) its amazing

>>	Anonymous Sat May 10 10:09:26 2014 No.4875337 >>4875325 6th century for migration or diaspora? all the sources ive read have more like 8th or even 9th

>>	Anonymous Sat May 10 10:18:28 2014 No.4875373 >>4875325 >nordic tribest west and east slavic you mean?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 10 10:19:42 2014 No.4875377 >>4875337 there is an established slavic state-like organization in central europe going as far as 7th century

Anonymous Sat May 10 10:25:35 2014 No.4875396

>>4875337
>>4875337
9th? rofl thats what im talking about. balkans were always very sensitive for historical research, mostly because yugoslavian school had to twist the facts to make existence of yugoslavia and "brother nations" idea easier. the foreign researchers also had some non-scientific motives.
john of ephesus is the main source for 6th century slav raids. but as i said, even that is too late. ill try to find sources in english
>>4875373
mostly west slavic but also nordic. slavic and nordic mythologies are very very similar

Anonymous Sat May 10 10:50:06 2014 No.4875453

>>4875396
>slavic and nordic mythologies are very very similar
oh yeah, i see that (I just misread your original post and thought you were implying "north slavic" tribes or something)
tried to do some research on slavic mythologies a few years ago, it seems that almost everything that's known about it comes from either evidently untrustworthy sources or is so filtered through the christian interpretations that saying something about the source material is basically conjecture. it's kind of a shame though

Anonymous Sat May 10 11:05:37 2014 No.4875492

>>4875453
it assimilated very deeply into orthodox christianity, gods and their attributes were transformed into saints. what is interesting is that there was no forced christianization, the religion was so compatible there was no need. pagan slava is still present in serbia today.
but it is sad how many things were destoryed and burned systematically

>>	Anonymous Sat May 10 14:33:41 2014 No.4876356 Read through a justice of history in modern europe recently. Well, what can I say. We are going to dark times soon, I hope you are ready for the eventual WW3.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 10 14:42:34 2014 No.4876396 Nobody here mentions south american empires? I feel sad everytime I read the spaniards destroyed those civilization.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 10 14:44:05 2014 No.4876405 >>4876396 Be glad that nobody cares about you. No really. Nobody cares about you. Its a victory for you. You wont get attention, you will be left out of wars hopefully etc. Bask in its hope.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 10 14:58:14 2014 No.4876452 nice to see this thread is still here /lit/ needs a history general

Anonymous Sat May 10 15:23:29 2014 No.4876542

>>4875453
Eh you have a fair amount of actual archeological finds
Plus around the Carolingian period they wrote a fair bit about slavic rituals
Then there was also later Lithuanian paganism which was very similar to Slavic rites in that it had gods such as Perkun who was basically Perun, the archetypical bolt-casting patriarch and is decently documented what with the Lithuanians only converting in the fifteenth century

>>	Anonymous Sat May 10 15:24:38 2014 No.4876551 >>4876356 but who will fight against whom? will it be between countries or something bigger?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 10 15:36:22 2014 No.4876594 some good history vids, theres more in related vids http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eTyw0Mv5nFQ http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h_ry8Q_93zM

Anonymous Sat May 10 21:02:46 2014 No.4877816

>>4875337
the first mentions of slavs are found in the 6th century whereas the first mentions of contemporary slavic identities (croats, serbs, etc.) are found in the 9th and 10th centuries. possibly even 8th century for western slavs. i'm only assuming. i know more about southern slavic history than any of the other two groups.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 11 00:04:48 2014 No.4878284 Historiography is a fucking trip, man.

Anonymous Sun May 11 00:08:31 2014 No.4878299

>>4874772

speaking of islamic history, which I'm sort of specializing in at the moment, it kinda disappoints me that the shi'ite interpretation of history is never taken into consideration when western scholars do their evaluations of early islam and muhammad's person. Often it feels like some scholars just parrot old sunni or christian propaganda.

I had a professor once who mentioned the idea of the Four Rashidun and I pointed out that not all muslims believed in that concept and he laughed and was like "Well, I mean 8 percent of muslims." I don't know why but something about his attitude pissed me off since 15 percent of over 1.3 billion people is still a heck of a lot. Not only that, but almost half of the middle east follows some kind shia faith, so i think their interpretation of the early period's history is important to know. Of course, he was an idiot all around. Apparently he taught a class on Middle Eastern Civilizations, but when I was in his class when he got to the rise of Islam he told everyone that muhammad "preached that he was the messiah," and even when I called him out on his error, he still tried to defend his screwup by citing some obscure article that he couldn't even tell me where in it that it claimed muhammad made this claim and according to which source. Not only that, he claimed Ibn Ishaq's biography was the "earliest biography of Muhammad," which again is inaccurate, Ibn Ishaq made the first extant biography of Muhammad, but made some use some earlier biographers who were more respected than himself. Not only that, but ibn Ishaq was even criticized for his methodology by other scholars to the point that he was considered by some to be an outright liar during his own time.

I've heard some people throw around the term "Christian-Islamists" before for certain Western scholars who, for their own political reasons, simply perpetuate and propagate the views and understanding of history preached by fundamentalists because it serves their own personal and political purposes. I always got that impression from him and I think this is one problem for people going into arabic and islamic studies in the west because sometimes the standards aren't very high and some scholars in the field don't make proper use or examination of all the sources available but choose those which confirm their own worldviews.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 11 00:09:33 2014 No.4878300 >>4878299 *85 percent of muslims

>>	Anonymous Sun May 11 10:47:25 2014 No.4879732 File: 48 KB, 520x324, The-Romanovs.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] What are some good books about the Romanovs?

Anonymous Sun May 11 12:20:07 2014 No.4879999

>>4879732
I remember "The Romanovs: Autocrats of All the Russians" being spectacular when I read it back in my university days. It's loaded with obscure primary sources and rare archive materials, and manages to present an amazingly complete account of the dynasty's life and times.

It's also incredibly readable, and avoids the "catalogue" feel of some other books which attempt to capture such a large scope.

Anonymous Sun May 11 15:31:27 2014 No.4880620

>>4879732
Nicholas and Alexandra by Robert Massie is the standard, although it is a bit dated now, especially with all of the new information that has been discovered in the 90s and 00s.

The Romanovs: The Final Chapter by Robert Massie was written after the bodies were discovered in the early 90s--I haven't read it but my friend that has says it's science-heavy with a decent amount of dna analysis, forensic discussion, etc

The Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson, and the World's Greatest Royal Mystery is about 'Anna Anderson,' a definite must if you are interested in how she was able to deceive people for so long.

Tsar: The Lost World of Nicholas and Alexandra is about the last years of imperial Russia... a good book if you're interested in the specifics of the imperial court.

The Romanov Sisters: The Lost Lives of the Daughters of Nicholas and Alexandra by Helen Rappaport, which just came out, is a book that focuses on the 4 daughters of Nicholas II.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 11 19:46:20 2014 No.4881342 Does anybody know any good texts about the Kingdom of Jerusalem?

>>	Anonymous Sun May 11 19:54:27 2014 No.4881364 Why did the fourth crusade turn out like it did? Why did anybody think that fucking up Constantinople instead of trying to take back the holy lands was a good idea?

>>	Anonymous Sun May 11 20:08:23 2014 No.4881423 >>4864773 >But yeah, all their art in general just seems shittier anyway

>>	Anonymous Sun May 11 20:09:31 2014 No.4881426 File: 10 KB, 176x234, inbi.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4881423 fug

Anonymous Sun May 11 20:19:04 2014 No.4881455

I was reading about how President Clinton instituted a policy where anyone busted on any kind of drug conviction in public housing was immediately evicted (including anyone living with them even if they weren't drug users or knew what was going on). Is there any kind of history of public housing? I grew up in public housing and I've been really interested and reading about how it got to where it is.

Anonymous Sun May 11 20:26:02 2014 No.4881481

>>4864434
I think if you think there's an afterlife, you go to an afterlife. If you think there's just this life, then when you die everything is over and you reach what the buddhists think is Nirvana until some pagan or something resurrects you by praying for your reincarnation.

Anonymous Sun May 11 20:29:10 2014 No.4881494

>>4881364
IIRC, it was sponsored by Venetian traders who had a fair-size rivalry with the Byzantines, and wanted big money.

Initially, what happened is that Venice agreed to fund & send men for the Crusade only if as a part of it, before landing in Jerusalem, they were allowed to invade a small, rival Christian kingdom (forget which one) somewhere in the northern Mediterranean. The Pope wasn't keen on allowing a Crusade to attack a Christian state, but caved because without the Venetians the Crusade would basically fail.

Then, once the precedent was set, the Venetians felt they were also entitled to take & sack Constantinople. The Pope officially condemned it, but also took a hefty chunk of the profits, and wasn't entirely friendly with the Orthodox Byzantines. Depending on your cynicism, it was either meant from the start as a cash-grab aimed at Constantinople, a well-intentioned Crusade that the Venetians commandeered, or a kooky accident.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 11 20:30:05 2014 No.4881500 File: 45 KB, 158x129, -lit- - Literature - Catalog 2014-05-11 19-28-38.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] How come this thread with such a vague tittle got so many replies?

Anonymous Sun May 11 20:30:51 2014 No.4881504

>>4881455
>leftists push for public housing
>capitalists hate it
>public housing predictably goes to the dregs of society
>capitalists hate this
>leftists attempt to do everything they can to get the dregs off drugs to impress the capitalists so public housing can stay because leftists are decent people
>it doesn't work because some people are just shit
>capitalists think the fact some people are shit is reason enough to let them die
>leftists don't because they're nice
A lot of the public programs, as you know, started with the early progressives, were expanded by FDR, then LBJ expanded them more, then Jimmy Carter did his shit, then Bill Clinton, now Barrack. You can learn everything there is to know about public housing basically by watching Fox News but taking what they say with a pinch of salt.

Anonymous Sun May 11 20:31:30 2014 No.4881506

>>4881364
$$$$$$$$
venetians funded the crusade thus they had a heavy hand in the direction it took. at that point in time, the city-states of nothern italy were reviving their trade and prestige while the merchant class had became a pronounced position in society. also the sacking of constantinople during the fourth crusade is considered one of the largest transfers of wealth in the middle ages. i believe it was charlemagne's acquisition of the avar's treasure that trumps this degree of wealth.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 11 20:31:54 2014 No.4881508 >>4881500 People like history and there's nowhere to discuss it

>>	Anonymous Sun May 11 20:33:06 2014 No.4881510 >>4881506 The other friendly bankers and capitalists also funded crusades, not just Venetians.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 11 20:36:27 2014 No.4881518 >>4881508 Weirdly true. I second the motion for a /lit/ history general.

Anonymous Sun May 11 20:40:48 2014 No.4881530

>>4881510
right. i see that i should have clarified more specifically. i was referring to the fourth crusade which was funded almost entirely by the city of venice. as for the other crusades, i am not sure but i will agree with you since it seems logical for the time period.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 11 20:44:42 2014 No.4881545 >>4881518 That'd be fun. The occasional thread and some hanging around in /gsg/ doesn't quite scratch the itch.

Anonymous Sun May 11 20:44:46 2014 No.4881546

>>4881518
History and Philosophy really just need their own boards, but I worry there must be some reason moot's denied them both for so long. We've tried discussing history on /lit/, /int/, /pol/, and even /fit/, /k/ and sometimes /sp/, and philosophy on even more boards. The problem is that though I like all these boards, none of them is really a /hist/, and so they absorb too much of the board culture of each board that has nothing to do with history, and on the more violent boards it devolves to shit, and I fear that speaking of history here would cause the same stuff speaking of history on any other board seems to cause:
everything devolves into nationalism and political ideologies and then some people eventually do what they can to make everybody shut up, they'll report everything to the mods in hopes that something rings a band, they'll create anti-historical anti-national anti-ideological memes to shut people up. All I ever want to do is discuss history but it's a very touchy subject and seems to ruin any board it touches.

I think /lit/ would be better off without too much history discussion, it'd cause too much angry culture jamming and ruin the beauty of /lit/

Anonymous Sun May 11 20:51:34 2014 No.4881570

>>4881546
Yeah, good point.
I suppose, optimistically, that if it was a whole board, the freedom of not being contained within one thread might cause less shitstorms - if people are spitting some ideology you don't like, you can look at some other thread about shit you do

Less optimistically though, it could go the /pol/ route where some radical ideology takes hold of it, and any discussion about history on or off the board becomes just a shitstorm of ideologies.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 11 20:57:11 2014 No.4881590 >>4881570 Dude, there would be a 24/7 nazi thread and you know it if there was a /hist/ board.

Anonymous Sun May 11 20:58:02 2014 No.4881595

>>4881570
With no strict ideology, it tends to go the KrautChan route where nazis dominate the board save for the occasional thread where either a hardcore capitalist or marxist from some crazy walk of life shares a lot of their wisdom.
To be honest just my time spent on such boards discussing so much history and all the time I've spent reading has made me more radical. I'm not actually a Nazi, but I think there's a reason Nazis seem to dominate most purely free boards. I think save for the obvious stupidity of giving a warlike ideology its hands on nukes, Nationalism is probably the most naturally appealing ideology to the average dipshit, with communism being for super nice people and capitalism being for extra sociopathic masochists.

But I'm not a nazi, fascist, or anarchist, I'm actually a big fan of old style Thomas More Utopia "communism".
But that's why I think it's best we shut up about history on /lit/

Anonymous Sun May 11 21:00:53 2014 No.4881608

>>4881546
We're trying to fend off /pol/ every day, but they seem to thrive on being hated, as it is built into their ideology, that the sheeple will hate them to protect the lie or manipulate the masses or something nebulous, which they earnestly think they are fighting a heroic battle against (except for the trolls of course). They don't seem to understand that people actually can find them obnoxious, trite or derailing serious discussion especially when they pride themselves with not reading literature.

Anonymous Sun May 11 21:15:44 2014 No.4881662

>>4881608
I'm a /pol/lack and read literature but I pretend I'm a lefty here because the second you I expose myself as a /pol/lack people freak out and tell me to gb2 /pol/, so I just shut up about who I am most of the time.

I'm actually an old /r9k/ guy from back when /r9k/ was good before it was deleted, and went to /int/ and /lit/ when /r9k/ fell, then went to /pol/ from /lit/ and liked the place before it got too popular and stopped being as intelligent a place as it used to be. /pol/ didn't used to be the type of idiot that'd brag about not reading, something happened. When it was first going sour, a lot of people blamed the JIDF, I blamed revleft. I just miss having open places of discussion, to be honest. I feel my time spent trying to really understand the ideologies of the world has made me understand my own beliefs a little better. I only wish that it was still that way.
But I repeat that /lit/ and /hist/ shouldn't mix, or /lit/'ll become /hist/, and /hist/ always becomes /pol/. /hist/ and /pol/ only ever go marxist for short times when Marxists force seemingly intentionally jam the culture of the place with non-discussion. The problem is that Marxists and Nazis just can't play nice together, unless the Marxist is the occasional Stalinist

>>	Anonymous Sun May 11 21:16:57 2014 No.4881667 >>4881662 *to /pol/ from /int/ I meant, I confuse /int/ and /lit/ a lot

Anonymous Sun May 11 21:29:46 2014 No.4881708

>tfw youll never be a white russian noble officer fighting against the bolsheviks in 1918-1920, tfw youll never emigrate to western europe after the defeat, you wont write your memoirs and fiction based on your experiences, youll never be ranked asone of the best russian writers of the 20th century

Anonymous Sun May 11 21:36:08 2014 No.4881725

>>4881708
>you'll never be a German emperor and watch as hopped up peasants smash your empire from the outside in the name of democracy, then gut it and get it completely trampled inside and out in WWII and have nothing but a sad story nobody gives a shit about and some anti-you propaganda to be remembered by

Anonymous Sun May 11 21:46:12 2014 No.4881749

>>4881570
>Less optimistically though, it could go the /pol/ route where some radical ideology takes hold of it, and any discussion about history on or off the board becomes just a shitstorm of ideologies.

There are people seriously recommending Howard Zinn in this thread. The only reason you don't realize that a radical ideology has already taken hold of /lit/ is because that's your own radical ideology.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 11 21:46:43 2014 No.4881750 >You'll never have romantic self imposed illusions of grandeur as faggots on /lit/ seems to have

>>	Anonymous Sun May 11 21:54:33 2014 No.4881771 >>4881749 Give evidence that reading Zinn is harmful and should be censored? Can't people make up their own minds?

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Sun May 11 22:26:46 2014 No.4881924 Having some good /hist/general threads (and /phil/ general threads) on /lit/ is perfectly acceptable imo. /lit/ is still a very slow board. If it were to ever increase in traffic, then we could split them off

>>	Anonymous Sun May 11 22:31:00 2014 No.4881951 >>4881924 and seeing how most of the comments in this thread are "recommend me books about this event" or "what historian is good to read," i'd say that keeping a /hist/ general thread on this board would be a logical decision.

Anonymous Sun May 11 22:31:22 2014 No.4881953

>>4881546
I am in principle against generals as they are often artificially propped up and degenerate into shitposting and the same people coming up, with more and more of them taking up names and becoming regulars. Namefags are cancer. /lit/ is fine for the occasional thread as you'd have plenty of people who actually read their books. A /his/ board is fundamentally redundant and would quite easily devolve into simplistic arguments with that peculiar aggressive style other boards, particularly /pol/, use. So you can have your Nazi fetishism/'holohoax' threads on /pol/, military history/equipment threads on /k/ and /tg/ and book discussion here. /int/ also might have some stuff but that board is amazingly shit right now.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 11 23:13:20 2014 No.4882120 >>4881953 /int/'s great, what the fuck are you talking about? It's so perfectly pleb, and plebs from foreign countries are the ones you want to learn about

>>	Anonymous Sun May 11 23:45:26 2014 No.4882257 >>4874868 That's some pretty cool leap of faith you have there anon >being this retarded Proved you're just some pseudo-intellectual wannabe.

Anonymous Sun May 11 23:47:04 2014 No.4882263

>>4874866
Our perceptions aswell as our entire existence is created so we can filter the subjective experiences all around us, gather experience and as such mature the quality of our consciousness.

Consciousness is the real deal, everything else is just a simulation

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Sun May 11 23:47:56 2014 No.4882265 >>4882257 >retarded Enjoy your ban.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 12 00:03:51 2014 No.4882335 Any good books on the Diocletian, the Tetrarchy, the wars between the diff caesars and Constantine?

Anonymous Mon May 12 00:07:40 2014 No.4882344

>>4879732
Not a book or directly about the Romanovs, but it's short and fun: the BBC WWI documentary "Royal Cousins at War" was (I found) well-done, and had a very interesting bit on the Romanovs. Seeing some of their many famous home videos in motion was very neat, and definitely saddening knowing their fate.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 12 00:29:51 2014 No.4882445 >>4882335 Williams - Diocletian and the Roman Revival Scott et al. (eds.) - From the Tetrarchs to the Theodosians Barnes - Constantine and Eusebius Lenski (ed.) - Cambridge Companion to the Age of Constantine

>>	Anonymous Mon May 12 00:41:49 2014 No.4882485 >>4882445 May Sol Invictus ever shine on you

>>	Anonymous Mon May 12 01:38:09 2014 No.4882668 Just because I'll probably get better answers on a board like this, does anyone know any good history movies?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 12 10:37:00 2014 No.4883345 >>4881750 >you'll never be some wannabe-humble faggot that brags about how he never has neat fantasies

>>	Anonymous Mon May 12 10:47:31 2014 No.4883371 >>4882668 david lynch

>>	Anonymous Mon May 12 10:49:08 2014 No.4883375 File: 380 KB, 800x1209, War of Wars - Cover.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Just toasting this little known great history book on the napoleonic wars. Seriously, it's a terrific read.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 12 12:08:00 2014 No.4883643 File: 1.38 MB, 1800x1200, Selimiye.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4874584 >Implying the Imparatorlugu wasn't the truest successor to the Roman Empire Get a load of this Occidental.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 12 13:17:28 2014 No.4883848 What are some good books about Florence during the renascence?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 12 14:08:41 2014 No.4883968 >>4874584 >queen of cities >some shithole third rate imitation of pagan Rome (itself way overrated) >not rescued from the barbarian pretend-Greeks

>>	Anonymous Mon May 12 14:16:23 2014 No.4883979 >>4883643 The Ottoman Empire, for at least a brief moment, was surely one of the greatest political entities to ever exist. In theory and appearance if not in execution.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 12 14:23:38 2014 No.4883989 >>4883979 They lived of the remnants of the roman empire.

Anonymous Mon May 12 14:29:24 2014 No.4884000

>>4883989
>They lived of the remnants of the roman empire.

You don't survive for 700 years by mooching off of the achievements of a failed predecessor.

They synthesized three heritages pretty brilliantly: Roman, Islamic, and Turkic. Unfortunately, like most political arrangements, the synthesis wasn't brilliant enough to last eternally.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 12 14:32:09 2014 No.4884008 File: 94 KB, 300x225, metabee2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4884000 >you will never turn back the clock, stop Kemal

>>	Anonymous Mon May 12 14:46:54 2014 No.4884047 I still dream of the day when greece will take back the anatolian peninsula and constantiople as well as uniting the balkans...

>>	Anonymous Mon May 12 14:58:37 2014 No.4884084 I am reading about Queen Elizabeth. Currently reading about Drake and Hawkins or some shit. It is dull and I want to commit harakiri.

Anonymous Mon May 12 15:00:45 2014 No.4884089

>>4884047
>I still dream of the day when greece will take back the anatolian peninsula and constantiople as well as uniting the balkans...

>Debt-ridden shithole that is even worse off than modern Turkey

>Amounting to anything ever again

Keep dreaming

>>	Anonymous Mon May 12 15:13:54 2014 No.4884123 >>4859353 I'd assume it has something to do with innocence/purity/transcendence of normal human bodies. A bare, shaved woman was an idealized form of the dirty, hairy, people that existed around them.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 12 15:25:31 2014 No.4884158 >>4884000 >Oghuz Türkler >heritage Ayran, living in tents and having sex with men?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 12 15:28:13 2014 No.4884165 >>4864188 >>you will never grow up in a small cosy town in greece, living a simple life with nature, composing poetry and songs in your free time as you herd your goats, the world a big unknown thing full of wonder This one hurts the most

Anonymous Mon May 12 18:55:13 2014 No.4884873

>You will never lead the final assault on Assur at the climax of a bloody and glorious civil war, thrusting your spear through the head of the Emperor and claiming your throne as the master of the most fearsome empire on the face of the planet

>You will never lounge on the banks of the Euphrates, pondering over love and the deaths of Gods

>You will never lead the maiden voyage past Gibraltar, uttering a final prayer for your crew and your beautiful family that you left behind

>>	Anonymous Mon May 12 19:27:34 2014 No.4884987 >>4859233 >John II 'The Beautiful' Komnenos >Fictional Nigger I will fuck you up

Anonymous Mon May 12 19:36:31 2014 No.4885009

Every one of you guys go read Ostrogovskys History of the Byzantine State, its a good introduction to the eastern roman empire and itll make you appreciate how advanced and how much the west owes to byzantium for it bring the wall that constantly protected europe from persians and arabs. Constantinople didnt fall once to an enemy (disregarding the 4th crusade) until the 1450s when it was conquered by the turks.

>youll never be co-emperor with your senior emperor and guard the anatolian themes against barbarians, even succeding as Basileus Romaion and reigning over the Queen of Cities.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 12 19:39:32 2014 No.4885022 >>4885009 Being the wall*

>>	Anonymous Mon May 12 19:43:14 2014 No.4885037 >>4861871 >John Cantacuzenos >Not Manuel II Son, you fucked up

>>	Anonymous Mon May 12 20:33:38 2014 No.4885208 >>4884000 >failed You're anathema to the study of history.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 12 20:42:05 2014 No.4885235 >>4884047 Greece never had the anatolian peninsula. Don't point to antiquity or the Byzantine Empire because you know that isn't remotely honest or relevant.

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Mon May 12 22:14:29 2014 No.4885521 >>4885235 That's like saying New England never had the south. England never had Scotland. Spain never had Catalonia. ... Pack your things.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 13 00:16:52 2014 No.4885891 >>4885521 No, it isn't like saying that. Try again.

Anonymous Tue May 13 00:42:12 2014 No.4885979

So someone explain to me the celts, iberians and germanic tribes. So the indoeuropeans get to europe, they divide, some go to iberia and become iberians, most of them spread throughout europe and become celts,and the other group migrates to scandinavia and northern germany and become germanic speaking?

Or do the people move in and with time each group slowly transforms into celts, germans and iberians? Who were the original inhabitants of the british isles? Where they always the celts?

Do all three groups have the same level of sophistication and technology? When the romans advance into gaul and iberia, do they encounter wild long haired barbarians or do they have written languages, coins, cities?

Anonymous Tue May 13 00:51:36 2014 No.4886013

>>4885521
but they didn't... at least not all of it. there were a number of greek settlements along the western and southern coasts of the peninsula. i suppose you could say that it was theirs???? maybe? i guess?

i think spain/catalonia was the only example you stated that holds. as for the other two, england does not have scotland because when joined they are britain; new england never had the south because when joined they are the united states.

perhaps i'm misunderstanding your message?

Anonymous Tue May 13 01:08:32 2014 No.4886072

>>4885979

they also moved to the mediterranean coasts. not sure about iberians being unique among the other groups though. indoeuros are more commonly differentiated according to their languages rather than their "blood."

the original inhabitants of the british isles were some kind of homo sapien. perhaps cro-magon, perhaps neandertal. they could also have not been inhabited.

your last para is a toughie based on the fact that defining "sophistication" and "technology" is problematic. i am going to use the word similar in its loosest understanding: these groups did have similar religious beliefs, similar customs, similar weaponry, similar dress, similar kinship. few groups had a written language until meeting with "advanced" cultures like romans. they more than likely had large towns or villages but nothing quite like a city of antiquity. coin production is another few and far between area.

sorry for no sources.

« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Tue May 13 01:17:37 2014 No.4886098
File: 104 KB, 627x600, Mithridates numismatics .jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>4886013
Only that there is a variety of ways to "have" a region.
The Anatolian region of course has a long history of multiple kingdoms, not just Greek settlements but people who settled ancient Achaea to become Greeks. And yes it was a part of a couple of empires. So "Greece had Anatolia" is a correct enough statement, no matter what patriotism, nationalism, racial/cultural purity tests one wants to qualify their objections with.

Love this thread. Will wait for the next.

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/lit/ - Literature