/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.5135592]

/lit/, when judging a book, how do you judge its theme, message, or philosophy?

What are some of the better or best ways to make an argument for something through fiction? Is fiction even a good medium for doing something like this?

[Anonymous No.5135660]

bump

[Charles Bukkake !!dbC6x/DQFYo No.5135714]

It's really very simple. Read the texts once or twice and make annotations, you really should keep your thoughts organized and written. Also, reading analysis' of novels can help you out a lot.

[Anonymous No.5135727]

Read the whole text to get an idea of what you thinks some underlying themes are, notating pages and passages that you think are important as you go along.

Put forth the idea and use these passages and quotes as explicit evidence for the presence of said theme.

[Anonymous No.5135730]

>>5135592
>how do you judge its theme, message, or philosophy?
Is it entertaining to read? Yes - great. No -it's shit.

>best ways to make an argument for something through fiction?
your opinion wins in the end.

[Anonymous No.5135743]

>>5135714
>>5135727
Sorry, I didnt mean your process, I meant your criteria.

For example, maybe you just cant stand first person when a piece of fiction deals with a certain philosophy because it always comes off as preachy from the narrator.

[Anonymous No.5135750]

>>5135730
What makes it entertaining to you? Can you point to any examples?

[Anonymous No.5135752]

>>5135743
Oh, gotcha.

Well, you'll never be able to please everyone. I think fiction comes off as preachy is the theme overshadows the characters/plot/etc.

The traditional stuff, characters, etc. should come first and would be the vehicle through which the theme is explored—they have to breathe even if the thematics of the work were to be suddenly removed.

[neetchuh !KNubuI3a/. No.5135756]

> Is fiction even a good medium for doing something like this?

Do you have integrity, and or a passion for fiction?

If you have neither, then no. If you have one, then kind of. And if you have both, then you're who Ayn Rand thought she was.

[Anonymous No.5135796]

>>5135750
>What makes it entertaining to you?
Magic or spaceships. Non-earth environments, made up societies with absurd rules, unforseen consequences and plot twists.

[Anonymous No.5135833]

The best way for fiction to be a vehicle for argument is when it uses its inherent qualities to advance the position in a way that the more direct and lucid essay form could not.

Basically, you should use fiction in argument when you have a compelling reason to not just state what you're fucking trying to say out in the open, in a concise and well-supported essay.

When does that happen? When would it be compelling to use fiction to make your point? A non-exhaustive list:

1. You are making an argument from pathos but you need your audience to experience something they probably haven't. Example - All Quiet on the Western Front.

2. You are making an extremely unpopular argument that people would dismiss without even considering if it you didn't hide it from them until they swallowed it whole. Example - Heart of Darkness.

3. You are making an argument intended to be consumed by an audience that isn't likely to sit still for some dry-as-shit essay. Example: Alice in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass.

4. You are looking to inject humor into your argument. Example: Animal Farm.

5. You are deliberately trying to be obscure because you don't want plebs to get what you're trying to say. Example: possibly Moby Dick.

Above all, you must only use fiction to advance an argument when you are communicating to the population at large - not a professional subset, such as in an academic setting. Parables may have their place there when enveloped in a larger essay, but by and large fiction is for communicating to the masses, whoever you may perceive them to be.

[Anonymous No.5135865]

>>5135752
What's a personal preference of yours then? I know you mentioned the theme overshadowing being bad, what about something you like?

>>5135756
I don't if Ayn Rand is the best representative to get that across.

>>5135796
What are some of your favorites?

>>5135833
Thank you for that answer.

By the way, the question I'm asking, would this topic be covered in literary criticism or something like that?

[Anonymous No.5135875]

>>5135865
Which question? OP is asking 3 separate ones.

[Anonymous No.5135881]

>>5135875
I am the OP, and I'm asking about all three of them. The topic itself.

[Anonymous No.5135917]

>>5135881
Well, there are different answers for each question to the question you asked in >>5135865.

Question 1 of OP "when judging a book, how do you judge its theme, message, or philosophy?" is definitely discussed in books on literary theory and criticism.

Question 2 "What are some of the better or best ways to make an argument for something through fiction?" Is not. Nobody really discusses this, but someone looking for better knowledge about this ought to take a look at books about rhetoric and storycrafting.

Question 3, "Is fiction even a good medium for doing something like this?" Is probably talked most about in structuralist/deconstructionist theory writings. Also take a look at storycrafting self-help books as well, and maybe something about Harold Bloom's School of Resentment

[Anonymous No.5135948]

>>5135917
Ah I see, thank you again, I didn't know.

[Anonymous No.5136023]

>>5135865
>What are some of your favorites?
The culture novels by Iain M Banks are great(except Inversions).

GRRM is good fantasy, though it's not really the fantasy aspects that makes his books good(and by now you might as well watch the series). Brandon Sanderson is better for more typical fantasy.