/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.5315659]

Just finished re-reading this and goddamn this book is so good

>cyberpunk general

[Anonymous No.5315667]

>>5315659
Now go and read burning chrome, my child.

>jamaican dub intensifies

[Anonymous No.5315678]

I wish cyberpunk was youth culture

Simultaneously, I am glad that (as we are living under such intense market conditions) that it is not youth culture, so that there is still a cyberpunk to speak of.

I makes me sad that neither will be realized, not the spaces the literature of the genre proposes, nor the ascendancy of the aesthetic and lifestyle.

[Anonymous No.5315681]

>>5315678

Part of me thinks that cyberpunk is an alternate future where dudes like steve jobs didn't make the computer "personal" and information technology remained the providence of corporations.

Also if japan's economy didn't crash.

[Anonymous No.5315697]

>>5315678
is cyberpunk still written today, anyway?

[Anonymous No.5315703]

>>5315678
*so many "that"s

>>5315681
http://www.depauw.edu/sfs/

Has some great reads in regards to the notion of cyberpunk's position as an "alternative" future, and how that all is conceptualized

[Anonymous No.5315716]

>>5315697
I dunno, m8, I haven't seen much of quality released in the last decade. It's at least produced with some depth and care via film, fashion, video games, and the whole field of visual art. Perhaps there's an interesting notion here of how cyberpunk is best represented. All these mediums seem to suggest something in common about that...

[Anonymous No.5315732]

I'm still surprised that Hollywood isn't trying to turn any cyberpunk novels into action films. I mean shit, they're just a few layout changes away from being screenplays anyway.

[Anonymous No.5315754]

What should i read from Philip K. Dick?

Pic related is a good start?

[Anonymous No.5315860]

>>5315754
Is PKD considered cyberpunk now? I think valis is his best, and most personal, but it's also extremely based in PKD's actual religious leanings (christian gnosticism), and is semi-autobiographical.

Just read A Scanner Darkly a week or so ago. Really good. He's very good at depicting madness. Probably because he had a little bit of it himself.

[Anonymous No.5315934]

>>5315754
My personal favorites? The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch and Ubik. Both are pretty much a given when it comes to PKD..

There are many, many more I could suggest, but I'm going to add Galactic Pot-Healer to the mix. It's a good book. Underrated, in my opinion. A fine example of Baum's influence on Dick.

Is it an epic? No. Is it fun? Yep.

[Anonymous No.5316125]

>>5315678
>>5315716
I think cyberpunk has pretty much been folded into sci-fi in general, especially because so much of what's happened since its inception has been pretty much a validation of its ideas. (The internet, mass surveillance, the rise of international megacorporations, etc.)

[Anonymous No.5316183]

>>5316125
>tfw you are living a cyberpunk world

well.
is not that great.

[Anonymous No.5316259]

I still think cyberspace in that original meaning has a potential future. Like, actually being there, in a space apart from the physical reality. I mean, we have people who can control objects with their minds already by simply slipping a wire helmet on. VR is a thing that exists.

Think about the internet. I'm looking at a screen and typing. I imagine something like Ghost in the Shell (the series), where people have avatar's sitting around and actually discussing things with each other. I don't know, there are a million ways it couldn't happen, but it's definitely possible, and exciting. I hope I live long enough to see some of it.

Just finished Count Zero today, starting MLO tomorrow. Cyberpunk/space is just amazing.

[Anonymous No.5316519]

>>5315659
So why was Neuromancer trying to stop Case and Mute, and then like, not really and just let them merge?

[Anonymous No.5316647]

No mentions of Snow Crash. Guys, seriously?

>>5315697
Pic realted was written last December, and it's good stuff.

[Anonymous No.5316677]

>>5316647
>No mentions of Snow Crash. Guys, seriously?
'Snow Crash' is trash, bruh.

[Anonymous No.5316705]

>>5316677
It's not, m8. Why d'you say it is?

[Anonymous No.5316870]

>>5316647
The weird title of the book in that picture of yours made me Google it. Apparently, a bunch of people recommend this.

Did you pirate the book (aka will it be available on #bookz)? I'm pretty new here so am clueless. All the books I have downloaded come from the lit wiki or torrented in one of those "kindle packs"

[Anonymous No.5316878]

>>5315697 >>5315659
Anyone into Postcyberpunk ? There are some new books coming in that area.
Anything by Greg Egan and pic related are great.

>>5315860 I'd consider him psyberpunk. It's rather a derivate of cyberpunk. For that I'd recommend The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch & Do Android Dream Of Electric Sheep & Scanners Darkly

>>5316259 Have you read pic related (and the follow up novel) ?

[Anonymous No.5316890]

>>5316870
Sadly (or not, since I like physical books) I bought it on amazon. Don't think you'll find anything on #bookz, I tried running the author's name once and got zero results.

Buy it though, it's an incredible mind-bending book and it's worth all the money... I think you can find it for about 10 bucks

>>5316878
I'd like a bucket of post-cyberpunkz please. Can you rec specific titles?

[Anonymous No.5316906]

>>5316890
>I'd like a bucket of post-cyberpunkz please
Daemon and the follow up FreedomTM (second one probably topped my favourite novel:)
Permutation City by Greg Egan
The Windup Girl by Bacigalupi (btw that one is also BioPunk)
Down And Out In Magic Kingdom (other books by Cory Doctorow aren't as good as this one)

And maybe there's some more by Charles Stross, Rajaniemi & Ian M. Banks

[Anonymous No.5316910]

>>5316906
Thanks m8, I knew about Egan and Bacigalupi but the others are absolutely new to me.

[Anonymous No.5317006]

What do people like in the Work Neuromancer? I couldn't find any point to any of it. It's the only book this year that I started but couldn't finish, and I was only pages from the end. It just seemed to be 'oh hey look at all this cool tech' and 'blah blah blah A.I. blah blah corporation'. I'm not seeing it. Is there something I missed? What's the appeal?

[Anonymous No.5317095]

>>5316890
Thanks for the input. Too bad I guess, books aren't like movies, who knows when/if that shit will ever be pirated.

I'll look for it in a library in a couple of years or something, if I remember

[Anonymous No.5317117]

>>5316519

OP here. I re-read the scene this morning. I think it just failed because Case rejected it + Maelcum injected him with the beta derms to wake him up from his flatline.

[Anonymous No.5317129]

>>5317095

Dude just pay for it books are not that expensive and then you can give it to a friend or something.

[Anonymous No.5317140]

>>5316906
Banks is great, but he's not even remotely cyberpunk.

You want Cyberpunk, check out Richard Morgan. Especially Market Forces, Black Man (which is called Thirteen in america because americans can't handle Black Man) and Altered Carbon.

[Anonymous No.5317172]

>>5317140

Altered Carbon was soooooooooooooooooo goood

[Anonymous No.5317204]

>>5317140 >>5317172
Yea, haven't read any thing by Banks yet, but I picked some novels that seem highly interesting to read soon. That's why I put it in "maybe".
I guess Richard Morgan is the original cyberpunk as in Neuromancer. But I read half of Altered Carbon and actually found it pretty shitty & overrated (ie unrealistic, unauthentic atmosphere, stale storyline, ...). I'm not playing PC games much anymore but Morgan wrote for Syndicate (youtube.com/watch?v=tGKVdW2EBzM) and Crysis 2 which are both top-notch (my favourite games) & cyberpunk (Crysis 2 is also a lot of BioPunk).
Is Market Forces good / much different from Altered Carbon ?

>>5316906 Got to add that I see Postcyberpunk as the new wave of cyberpunk. In the "Cyberprep" sense of postcyberpunk ("A cyberprep world assumes that all the technological advancements of cyberpunk speculation have taken place but life is utopian rather than gritty and dangerous") only Down and Out In Magic Kingdom and the 2 books by Suarez of my list fits the description.

[Anonymous No.5318116]

Am I the only one who was disappointed with Count Zero?I was just bored whenever Turner's part came up.

The atmosphere was also off.Mona Lisa Overdrive was better though, but still not as enjoyable as Neuromancer.

[Anonymous No.5318144]

>>5317204
Market Forces is less noir than Altered Carbon. The basic premise is something called Conflict Investment, where various large companies make money by supporting various foreign governments in war in exchange for a portion of that country's GDP, and also by maintaining a steady state of low level war in the area and selling guns - the interesting thing shows up in how the various executives in these companies are expected to demonstrate their dedication to the company, the contract and the client.

Which is basically by killing competing executives in car duels on the highway and taking their business cards off their mangled bodies as trophies.

And a lot of other crazy cyberpunk stuff.

[Anonymous No.5318173]

>>5316906
Flashback by Dan Simmons also recomended. Is A Scanner Darkly by Philip K. Dick considered post-cyberpunk?

[Anonymous No.5318198]

>>5317204
Crysis 2 is cyberpunk??

The guy is cyber loaded with all sort of stuff but I wouldn't call it cp, it's just uncommon Sci fi

[Anonymous No.5318212]

>>5317204
>Got to add that I see Postcyberpunk as the new wave of cyberpunk. In the "Cyberprep" sense of postcyberpunk ("A cyberprep world assumes that all the technological advancements of cyberpunk speculation have taken place but life is utopian rather than gritty and dangerous") only Down and Out In Magic Kingdom and the 2 books by Suarez of my list fits the description.

That's exactly the kind of cyberpunk I'm interested in. I'm actually reading Suarez right now. I would, however, strongly object that this is utopian.

[Anonymous No.5318250]

>>5318212

i think it just removes the overtly "punk" aspects of cyberpunk.

[Anonymous No.5318298]

>>5315667
>afrofuturism intensifies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMQy7tF88KA

[Anonymous No.5318326]

>>5315716
>I dunno, m8, I haven't seen much of quality released in the last decade.
Ian McDonald would like to have a word with you.

[Anonymous No.5318336]

>>5318212
read Bruce Sterling's Islands in the Net. His protagonists aren't jaded twentysomething criminals but have real jobs and marriages, and he is ambivalent about technology and power, not dystopian.

[Anonymous No.5318444]

>>5318144
>The basic premise is something called Conflict Investment, where various large companies make money by supporting various foreign governments in war in exchange for
Well then it's at least realistic. That stuff is happening by now. (Btw another interesting aspect is the sector dedicated to the cyber arms race: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/cyber-weapons-the-new-arms-race-07212011.html))
>Which is basically by killing competing executives in car duels on the highway and taking their business cards off their mangled bodies as trophies.
So is it mainly just bleak violence without a true cyberpunk atmosphere ?
I guess I'm just going to download the ebook of it and buy it if it's better than Altered Carbon.

>>5318173
>Flashback by Dan Simmons also recomended
Sounds interesting. Btw I've seen this "stored memory experience" as a new media form in the PC game "Remember Me", a episode of Black Mirror the movie Minority Report and I think Nirvana or Strange Days and the upcoming Cyberpunk 2077 (pic related)
>Is A Scanner Darkly by Philip K. Dick considered post-cyberpunk?
No, pretty sure it's not. As said earlier many of Dick's novels are some kind of new form of cyberpunk that I'd call "psyberpunk". But that's not post-cyberpunk (note that in PKD's books ie the way social implications are issued is rather on the mental level, not on the societal):

>"Person's essay advocates using the term postcyberpunk to label the new works such writers produce. In this view, typical postcyberpunk stories continue the focus on social implications within a post-third industrial-era society, such as a ubiquitous datasphere of computerized information and cybernetic augmentation of the human body, but without the assumption of dystopia"

>>5318198
Well true, it's not really cyberpunk. It's BioPunk (& SciFi) but it does have elements of cyberpunk (some of them are amplified) like for example "low life, high tech" and human being "lost in/under the machine" and being on one's own with the organizing structure broken down that also invokes the cyberpunkish feeling of "it's not the end but you can see it from here" (also a Deus Ex quote).

>>5318212 Me too. The second book (and in some way the last few chapters of the first one) fit that description perfectly and I'm pretty sure you won't find a better book than it in this area (he's also implementing what Doctorow is addressing in this respect in Down & Out in a far better fashion). So don't stop reading if it at first seems like just some "techno-thriller". It's close to technological utopianism, yes. But I think that's an ill-fit term for books that premiere new(!) directions of ideology & societal organizations etc in conjunction with the ongoing rapid progress of technology. (Other than that "utopia" implies perfection [also with a connotation of unattainability] which none of those books imply)

>>5318336 Got to say that this would also fit Suarez' books if you were referring to them.

[Anonymous No.5318604]

>Main character named Hiro Protagonist
>samurai swordsman
>Pizza delivery boy
>Mafia controls pizza delivery
It's just so fucking silly, even if it is a parody. Is Neal Stephenson really worth the effort?

[Anonymous No.5318642]

>>5316878
>PKD, a derivate of cyberpunk
PKD wrote before cyberpunk was a thing (although there are some proto-cyberpuink stories written during PKD's lifetime)

the word psyberpunk also doesn't make any sense, not in itself and not as a description of PKD's fiction

[Anonymous No.5318654]

>>5316910
don't read Doctorow, it's crap

[Rhoop !!hotPtWIGJed No.5318657]

>>5318604

Yes. The society that he portrays in that and the Diamond age is a surprisingly well realised future. The writing in Snow Crash is fun, compelling, and doesnt take itself too seriously. If you dont like it, thats fine, but he's definitely worth a try.

[Anonymous No.5318658]

>>5318604
Not really.
I made it through Anathem but I've tried to read Snow Crash three times and failed each time. His style gets old once the novelty wears off.

[Anonymous No.5318668]

Cyberpunk is more an ethos than a genre.
It's also the defining aspect of our zeitgeist. 4chan is cyberpunk.

[Anonymous No.5318719]

>>5318642 I know he wrote before Neuromancer and "cyberpunk" as a genre was a thing. Maybe a "version of cyberpunk" "a genre close to cyberpunk" comes closer to what I mean. Psyberpunk is just how I call it as people apparently fucked up by not giving it a separable name. Psy as of psychedelic (read Three Stigmata Of Palmer Eldritch for example) and also of psychological (reaction in the fictional realm to new technology, rapid change etc + processing of psychotic experiences).

>>5318654 Well I'd agree for his other books. Have you actually read this one though ?

>>5318657 Not >>5318604, but does it stay like that throughout the whole book ? Started reading it but it just left me with inconceivability of how people would like that sort of stuff. Same thing with Diamond Age. It reads like a 10 year old American kid having watched too many toy-ads wrote it. Actually planned to start reading it again as I hoped it was just at the start as the book's been called a "bildungsroman":
>In literary criticism, a Bildungsroman is novel of formation, novel of education, or coming-of-age story (though it may also be known as a subset of the coming-of-age story) is a literary genre that focuses on the psychological and moral growth of the protagonist from youth to adulthood
I thought the book might have been written in the same style as in growth/maturing not just expressed in the protagonist but also in the book('s story) itself. So it really stays the same ?

>>5318668 I think it's rather a genre that is the repercussion/reaction to what's happening in the real world. It's just now that so much of it seems to become real (which, btw is of course the major cause of the current transformation of the cyberpunk genre) that it's increasingly becoming rather an ethos, lifestyle and omnipresent.
4chan is rather a major part of Cyberculture.

[Anonymous No.5318738]

Some great reads in cyberpunk/postcyberpunk that have not yet been listed:

Noir - Kevin J Jeter
Reamde - Neal Stephenson
All Tomorrow's Parties - William Gibson
Zero History - William Gibson

>>5318604
Two points I'd like to make known about Snow Crash that I don't think are as widely understood as I thought they were:

1. The first chapter (where 95% of what you listed primarily takes place) is, stylistically and narratively, largely divorced from the rest of the book. This is because it began life as a separate standalone short story that was not published, and which served as the kernel from which Snow Crash was later elaborated. The style and postmodern hyperbole found in it are greatly toned down in the rest of the book. Some people are thankful for that, others wish the whole book could be like the first chapter. He made a good compromise, I feel.

2. Hyperbolic dystopia, in which the small philosophical errors of a society are exaggerated beyond belief, is a dominant trope of 90's era, pre-2001 pop SF (Demolition Man, Terminator, The Matrix, Robocop, Judge Dredd, Starship Troopers, etc.). Snow Crash fits right in with its brethren. The idea behind hyperbolic dystopia, I think, was to escape the postmodern, multi-culti milieu of non-judgement by creating a world with situations so extreme you were compelled to take a side - this need to avoid 90s ennui was greater even than the need to maintain a story's sense of realism.

[Rhoop !!hotPtWIGJed No.5318761]

>>5318719

If you read past the first chapter or two of either The Diamond Age or Snow Crash, than after that the writing style doesnt change much. Both stories could be classified as coming-of-age stories, but they wind up very different in how its handled. If it's Stephenson's prose in general that you have a problem with, I cant really help you, as I personally enjoy it and find it refreshingly unique. If you want something thats written more "mature", I'd say try out Cryptonomicon, but if you really just hate his style, than that's probably it.

[Anonymous No.5318771]

>>5318761
>>5318738 here

Wow, we could not disagree more about snow-crash. Maybe I need to reread it; it's been a while, but I thought the first chapter was rather different from the rest of the book.

[Anonymous No.5318806]

>>5318658

I couldn't finish Anathem. I liked snow crash ok but i also listened to it on audiobook on the bus

[Rhoop !!hotPtWIGJed No.5318815]

>>5318771

I find that Snow Crash is just a massive dividing line in taste, some people read it and like it (because it get thrown around all the time here as an example of good "modern" cyberpunk) and others think its inane tripe. I liked it, though I can admit it has problems. I think a better book, and a less polarising one that provides a better overall sample of Stephenson's style is Cryptonomicon.

In other cyberpunk authors/stories worth reading:

River of Gods - Ian Mcdonald
Terminal Cafe(sometimes alternately titles Necroville) - Ian Mcdonald

[Anonymous No.5318826]

>>5318815
Most of Stephenson's stuff definitely has problems, I agree. I would say that where Gibson is ridiculously precise fastidious, Stephenson is definitely much more an ideas man, and his plots, style, and characters are much messier because of this. Not really trying to demean him, because I think authors like him are important to have alongside guys like Gibson, but that's just what I think he is.

I have heard of Terminal Cafe. Why should I read it again?

[Anonymous No.5318847]

>>5318738
>Noir - Kevin J Jeter
whoops, should read KW Jeter.

[Anonymous No.5318873]

>>5315754

I just finished it yesterday. I thought it was a pretty great book. It was my first experience with PKD as well.

He's not a particularly fantastic writer but his imagination is formidable. The subplot of Mercirism really helped the main plot. The ending's a bit weak depending on your interpretation of events. It's either going to leave you with lots to think about or leave you completely unsatisfied. Probably a mixture of both.

Anyways, great read, and it'll take you like 3 hours tops.

[Anonymous No.5318898]

>>5318719
>It reads like a 10 year old American kid having watched too many toy-ads wrote it.

>Not the spirit of our age.

Part of the reason Neal Stephenson is so genius in this way is that his work encapsulates the cynicism of the era. As Zizek likes to put it 'It doesn't take itself seriously, it makes fun of itself, but it works.' Neal Stephenson's writing is also cinematic in its imagery, focused on being flashy and cool, and yet trying to be cinematic in this way is inherently over-earnest, it must up the cynicism as well.

My point is that Neal Stephenson is what literature in the mass media age ought to reflect.

P.S. I like his writing, but I do not agree with the cynicism of our age, and while Neal Stephenson accurately encapsulates this, it would be nice to have a return to sincerity.

[Rhoop !!hotPtWIGJed No.5318937]

>>5318826

I agree with you that Stephenson is an ideas man foremost.

Ian Mcdonald is good for the opposite reasons that Stephenson is good - his stories are intensely personal, focusing on the characters thoughts and choices, though as a backdrop you still have the cyber-punk and societal change.

[Anonymous No.5319161]

>>5318937
If it's too personal a book usually ends up seeming like self-pity or masturbation to me... but I'll give it a try.

[Anonymous No.5319181]

>read some cyberpunk novels
>wow what would it be like if you were to take these ideas out of a science-fiction context
>and also make them more boring
>and make half of the book expository dialogue between insufferable yuppies
>and satirize social media in the most ham-fisted obvious way possible

[Anonymous No.5319211]

>>5319181
Welcome to the magical world of Dave Eggers. Where every book is like a lifetime sentencing of regret.

[Anonymous No.5319821]

Should i buy it, /lit/?

[Anonymous No.5319836]

I found Ubik pretty shit. I didn't understand why anybody would recommend this book. Please, guys, elaborate.

[Anonymous No.5319856]

>>5317006
it sucks
I stopped as soon as they went to the negroe spacestation

[Anonymous No.5319868]

>>5319836
i know

[Anonymous No.5319932]

>>5319821

[Anonymous No.5319995]

>tfw we're in the proto-cyberpunk age

[Anonymous No.5320081]

>tfw I really want to read the Mirrorshades anthology but it's out of print

[Anonymous No.5320104]

>>5317006
I like the way he writes.

[Anonymous No.5320483]

>>5319932

[Anonymous No.5320618]

>>5320081

What is ebay.

[Anonymous No.5320666]

>>5316878
I haven't read that one, fellow User. I'll give it a go soon though.

[Anonymous No.5320716]

>>5320081
mirrorshades is excellent. abebooks, powells.com, or even your local library has it

>>5316890
i highly recommmend jeff noon's vurt

>>5318116
i thought count zero was better than neuromancer in several ways. the ai was more interesting, the emotions were subtle instead of in your face

[Anonymous No.5321088]

>>5319932
i thought the same thing, it's not a good sign

[Anonymous No.5322335]

>>5318604
Snow Crash is fucking silly, that true. If that really irks your, you probably shouldn't read it. On the other hand I though that the whole Sumerian was pretty cool. If you find the whole Bicameral Theory of Mind interesting you might like it too.

[Anonymous No.5323437]

>>5322335
That sumerian shit literally made me write an epic poem about gilgamesh; I am actually somewhat convinced stephenson was on to something about how language worked - or perhaps still might work

[Anonymous No.5324004]

prometheus rising anyone ;-)

[Anonymous No.5324241]

>>5318604
I read Snowcrash before any of his other books and was severely disappointed with the rest of his works.

Snowcrash is enjoyable though.
The first chapter is just a giant hyperbole and kind of a poke at CyberPunk is general. It gets a lot more serious after the first chapter
and eventually he does a great exploration of the idea and origin of language.

Overall, it's enjoyable and any fan of Cyberpunk should give it a try.