[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/lit/ - Literature

View post   
File: 69 KB, 481x500, booknewsun.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5758105 No.5758105 [Reply] [Original]

The Shadow of the Torturer is the tale of young Severian, an apprentice in the Guild of Torturers on the world called Urth, exiled for committing the ultimate sin of his profession -- showing mercy toward his victim

is this one of those dreaded black and white morality books

>> No.5758119

On a hidden symbolic level only, but yes

>> No.5758194

>Guild of Tortures

Why would a torturer need a guild? They are neither craftsmen nor merchants.

>> No.5758198

It's more complicated than that. Main character is subtly implied to be a bad guy whitewashing his evil doings in narration that makes him sound like a good guy.

>> No.5758218

Great writing
>Other poets have warbled the praises of the soft eye of the antelope, and the lovely plumage of the bird that never alights; less celestial, I celebrate a tail.

>Reckoning the largest sized Sperm Whale's tail to begin at that point of the trunk where it tapers to about the girth of a man, it comprises upon its upper surface alone, an area of at least fifty square feet. The compact round body of its root expands into two broad, firm, flat palms or flukes, gradually shoaling away to less than an inch in thickness. At the crotch or junction, these flukes slightly overlap, then sideways recede from each other like wings, leaving a wide vacancy between. In no living thing are the lines of beauty more exquisitely defined than in the crescentic borders of these flukes. At its utmost expansion in the full grown whale, the tail will considerably exceed twenty feet across.

Mediocre writing
>It is possible I already had some presentiment of my future. The locked and rusted gate that stood before us, with wisps of river fog threading its spikes like the mountain paths, remains in my mind now as the symbol of my exile. That is why I have begun to answer this account of it with the aftermath of our swim, in which I, the torturer's apprentice Severian, had so nearly drowned.
>'The guard has gone.' Thus my friend Roche spoke to Drotte, who had already seen it for himself.

Even the info dumping is better writing

>> No.5758245

>>5758218
Explain why the great writing is great and explain why the mediocre writing is mediocre.

>> No.5758309

>>5758245
>>5758218

This, please, you insufferable sophist.

>> No.5758525

>>5758245
>>5758309

S/He knows the first one is good because someone said so and the next one isn't because it's science fantasy and /lit/ has decreed that genre writing is bad. I guarantee that if the first were original and posted in a critique thread it would be torn to shreds. But both of you already knew that.

>>5758194

Don't guilds serve some of the same purposes as unions in most books? At least in the sense of serving the best interests of its members. I don't see why any profession wouldn't have a 'guild' if they could manage it, in the sense of a union. And I suppose if it were that important of an occupation in-universe it might be considered a sort of craft, or art, to be able to inflict the maximum amount of pain and by degrees without killing the person, or so crippling them or driving them insane to the point that maybe they couldn't be ransomed anymore. I haven't read what OP is talking about so I'm mostly being devil's advocate, but I could see it.

>> No.5758536

Certainly, Wolfe is a devout Catholic and believes that there's such a thing as an absolute morality, but BotNS is very, very far from a black and white morality books.

If what you're afraid of is that Severian is some kind of impossibly pure hero or something, let me assure that is very far from the case, he's a terrible person

>> No.5758553

>>5758245
>Explain why the great writing is great
In no living thing are the lines of beauty more exquisitely defined than in the crescentic borders of these flukes

>explain why the mediocre writing is mediocre
Thus my friend Roche spoke to Drotte, who had already seen it for himself.

>Thus my friend Roche spoke to Drotte, who had already seen it for himself

>> No.5758644

>>5758553
>In no living thing are the lines of beauty more exquisitely defined than in the crescentic borders of these flukes
>great
>good, even

>> No.5758699

>>5758525

>I haven't read what OP is talking about

Yet you presume to cast judgment on the quality of the work based on a very small snippet.

>> No.5758722

>>5758553
"We, so the mages say, were apes once, happy apes in forests swallowed by deserts so long ago they have no names. Old men return to childish ways when at last the years becloud their minds. May it not be that mankind will return (as an old man does) to the decayed image of what once was, if at last the old sun dies and we are left scuffling over bones in the dark? I saw our future—one future at least—and I felt more sorrow for those who had triumphed in the dark battles than for those who had poured out their blood in that endless night."

That paragraph is better than anything you'll ever right.

>> No.5758765

>>5758722
Come on, not the faggot you were replying to but this paragraph isn't so good, and
>you'll ever right.

>> No.5758808

>>5758218
>The locked and rusted gate that stood before us, with wisps of river fog threading its spikes like the mountain paths, remains in my mind now as the symbol of my exile.

>We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they invent us; we are their creatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges. When soldiers take their oath they are given a coin, an asimi stamped with the profile of the Autarch. Their acceptance of that coin is their acceptance of the special duties and burdens of military life—they are soldiers from that moment, though they may know nothing of the management of arms. I did not know that then, but it is a profound mistake to believe that we must know of such things to be influenced by them, and in fact to believe so is to believe in the most debased and superstitious kind of magic. The would-be sorcerer alone has faith in the efficacy of pure knowledge; rational people know that things act of themselves or not at all.

>> No.5758918

>>5758765
“That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.”

I retarded.

>> No.5759199

>>5758194
>Why would a torturer need a guild?

Guilds are typically responsible for training and apprenticeships. Fictional torturers are often held to be skilled labour, the idea being that not just any old body can effectively torture someone.

>> No.5759203

>>5758218
>>It is possible I already had some presentiment of my future. The locked and rusted gate that stood before us, with wisps of river fog threading its spikes like the mountain paths, remains in my mind now as the symbol of my exile. That is why I have begun to answer this account of it with the aftermath of our swim, in which I, the torturer's apprentice Severian, had so nearly drowned.
>>'The guard has gone.' Thus my friend Roche spoke to Drotte, who had already seen it for himself.

This reads much better than the above.

>> No.5759289 [DELETED] 

>>5758194
There's a science behind everything.

>> No.5759304

>>5758218
> unable to understand that the narrator is not the writer
What is a monstrous pleb like you even doing on this board?

>> No.5759313
File: 117 KB, 620x388, Shakes0_2887948b.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5759313

>>5759203
Wolfe makes better use of iambs than Melville, though they both employ them liberally. Then again, when Melville is truly on his game and rendering lines of blank verse into prose, he is remarkable.

Both were clearly influenced by Shakespeare, the master of iambs and fitting syllables together in English.

>> No.5759314

>>5758245
>>5758309
>>5758525
Lol why are fans of this shit so autistic?

>sophist
lmao come the fuck on

>I guarantee that if the first were original and posted in a critique thread it would be torn to shreds.
so much gd resentment up in here

>> No.5759318

>>5759314
if you cant even explain whats wrong with it, then you should fuck off.

>> No.5759326

>>5759203
>That is why I have begun to answer this account of it with the aftermath of our swim,
Why would a gate reminding you of your exile be a reason to begin somewhere?

>in which I, the torturer's apprentice Severian,
Very cliche intro that isn't awful on its own because you can only do so much with first-person intros, but being coupled with an exotic fantasy name like Severian and a title like 'the torturer's apprentice' (which we don't need to read right now) compounds the issue to come off as bad as 'once upon a time'.

>had so nearly drowned.

Just say 'nearly drowned'.

>Thus my friend [verb]
There are places this works, a short statement really isn't one.

>to Drotte, who had already seen it for himself.
I'm sure you could yourself could figure out a less tedious way to phrase this, but it's completely unnecessarily information anyway, it adds no beauty, intrigue, excitement , cerebral activity, or anything, it's just words.

>> No.5759340

>>5759326
>Just say 'nearly drowned'.

The 'so' creates better rhythm in the sentence. Say "Had nearly drowned" and "Had so nearly drowned," then ask yourself which one sounds better.

>> No.5759343

>>5759340
'in which I nearly drowned" sounds best.

>> No.5759350

>>5759326
You havent read the book so you're basically flying blind here.

Overall it seems like you're just trying to be mincy just to be mincy, nothing you said actually proves how the passage is bad, its just your dubious opinion.

>> No.5759354

>>5759313
Using iambs requires no talent unless you do it uniformly for an extended period. The English language is extremely accommodating toward iambs, you can write in them by accident.

>> No.5759372

>>5759354
Yes, but deliberate use of them produces more pleasing writing. And beyond iambs, being aware of how syllables fit together, along with the sounds they make when they rub against each other, is a hallmark of good writing, and both Wolfe and Melville are aware of it.

Consider the dialogue markers "I said" and "said I." It's the same two words, and both phrases mean the same thing. But each phrase sounds distinct, and each has its place in the construction of sentences and paragraphs.

>> No.5759388

>>5759313
>Both were clearly influenced by Shakespeare, the master of iambs and fitting syllables together in English.
wow what an insight, im glad u included a shitty portrait of him too

>> No.5759395

>>5758218
someone told me that the first few pages of BOTNS are a lot worse in prose style because of info dump

i hope that's true because of how often this board praises the prose in that book. that first paragraph is like 1 level above average fantasy/scifi stuff.

>> No.5759467

why do you compare some random text with the very beginning, you should compare the two beginnings or two random;y chosen places

>Call me Ishmael. Some years ago—never mind how long precisely—having little or no money in my purse, and nothing particular to interest me on shore, I thought I would sail about a little and see the watery part of the world. It is a way I have of driving off the spleen and regulating the circulation.

>> No.5759474

>>5759372
I'm fully familiar with how syntax can be altered to accommodate rhythm.

>>5759467
Well the opening is one of the best parts of Moby Dick, so I selected something at random to be a bit fairer, since Moby Dick is after all a masterpiece that very few works of literature can compare with.

>> No.5759498

>>5758722

>becloud

lol.

Also there's no good reason for torturers to require a guild, btw. Yet another half baked fantasy premise. Genre trash.

>> No.5759505

>>5759326
It's Severian's diction, not Wolfe's, you tard.

Severian is a pompous douchebag, and Wolfe cleverly manipulates the diction and mannerisms of the narrator to carry this across. ("Show, don't tell".)

Why are you such a pleb?

>> No.5759506

>>5759498
>Also there's no good reason for torturers to require a guild, btw.
Torturing is an honest and unglamorous profession. You think they do it for fun?

>> No.5759531

>>5759506
>Torturing is an honest
lol

>and unglamorous
rofl

>profession.
l m a o

>You think they do it for fun?
OBVIOUSLY

>> No.5759533

>>5759506

I think that anyone can do it.

"Y'know, I WAS gonna tell you what you wanted to know, but, ehhhhh... that didn't hurt quite enough."

>> No.5759538

>>5758105
Why do we now have troll threads and pleb tripfags shitting their stupid opinions?

>> No.5759540

>>5759538
There isn't a single tripfag in this thread.

>> No.5759638

>>5759531
>>5759533
>not understanding this is a work of fiction set billions of years into the future with a culture(s) almost entirely alien from ours

furthermore, why are you people talking shit about something you haven't even read?

>> No.5759642

>>5759638
But they read the first page bro. That way they know it has bad writing. Because Severian told you a few things about himself.

>> No.5759646

>>5759638
i wonder, if it's set billions years in the future and the sun will get so hot the life on the earth will probably be impossible/nearly impossible in only ~1 billion how did they cope

>> No.5759647

>>5759638
>/lit/

>> No.5759726

>>5759638
Thanks for giving me a good reason not to read tis book

>> No.5759935

>>5758194
Every profession has them
And if you pay attention you might notice something catholic about them

>> No.5760064

Is The Book of the New Sun recommended for someone who doesn't really care for Fantasy and just reads "real" literature?

>> No.5760079

>>5760064
eat shit

>> No.5760086

>>5760064
It is compared to Ulysses and Lolita for a reason.

>> No.5760127

>>5760086
>compared to ulysses and lolita
cmon lit, the series is good but you might be going too far

>> No.5760142

>>5760064
I wouldn't recommend it to someone who
>just reads "real" literature
Then again, I wouldn't recommend anything to the kind of person who'd post that. :^)

>> No.5760252

>>5760127
New Sun is better than Lolita. The second half of Lolita is the most boring crap every. It was done on purpose, and served a function in the story, but still boring.

>> No.5760355 [DELETED] 

>>5760064
pretentious as fuck lel

>> No.5760369

>>5760252
Stick to your fantasy pleb

>> No.5760379

>>5760252
>reading for the story
pleb

>> No.5760404

>>5760127
It is far better than Lolita.

>> No.5760408

>>5760369
(It Isn't even fantasy, try reading it)

>> No.5760410

>>5759505
Okay, Wolfe is very good at being intentionally mediocre.

>> No.5760422

>>5760410
His style is superior to that of Nabokov afaig.

>> No.5760433

>>5760422
Yes, the style of MLP is superior to Aeon Flux.

>> No.5760689

>>5760379
I love Lolita's prose. But that good writing dropped off in part two. Again, it was on purpose, but it didn't really do it for me. The prose in New Sun is amazing through out.

>> No.5760695

>>5760689
(samefag) I do think Pale Fire is better than New Sun. Wolfe himself has said that Pale Fire might be the prefect novel. No reason to rank: Wolfe and Nabokov are peers, not rivals.

>> No.5760971

>>5760695
pale fire's plot seems dull

>> No.5761014

>>5759646

It's set approx 1 million years in the future. The dying of the sun was caused by Typhon and his ilk.

>> No.5761309

>>5760252
>>5760404
Nabokov's prose at its best, including in Lolita, is far more impressive than anything in Gene Wolfe.

>> No.5761318

>>5760971
That's weird, it sounded interesting as hell to me when I first read about it

>> No.5761342

I have read BoTNS twice and I still don't get some of it. I think the first two books are fantastic then the final two are terrible

>> No.5761579

>>5760971
pale fire's plot is amazing tho

>> No.5761583

>>5760086
it is compared to ulysses and lolita basically by amazon and goodreads reviewers who have read like 5 books of classic literature

i don't know if i've ever seen that book taken seriously by like an author of "mainstream" literary fiction

>> No.5762925

>>5761583
I've everything by Pynchon and Faulkner, Moby Dick, Ulysses, a few books by Nabokov, so a lot of the modern and postmodern canon. Lots of classics too. Honestly, New Sun isn't better, its a peer to the greats. Stuff hating faggots, read it.

>> No.5763852

>>5762925
Anonymous on 4chan doesn't count. Show me an actual author or critic who doesn't mainly read or write fantasy/sci-fi who likes it

>> No.5763860

>>5761583
I've read a lot of classics, in fact 80% of everything that I've read is a classic and Wolfe matches easily with what is considered cannon. I have no reason to doubt that his day will come and he will be praised as much as the classical authors.

>> No.5763899

https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/23069.Gene_Wolfe

It seems he's a decent stylist when he wants to be, but all of his apparent attempts at insight are platitudes, and he isn't especially clever. What's so great about him? Are his characters compelling? Does he write interesting plots? Is there any unique or evocative symbolism in his works? It seems most people praise him for being a language nerd and creating cute Nabokovian puzzles. As far as I can tell, he's not nearly on the level of Melville, Faulkner, Pynchon or especially Joyce

>> No.5763900

>>5763860
>breaks out statistics about his personal reading habits
>'cannon'
try less hard in the future

>> No.5763931

>>5763899
its probably better to just read him

>> No.5763960

>>5763931
Busy reading other things.

>> No.5763968

>>5763960
backlog it then. you wont get a straight answer from anyone and its better to just see for yourself and form a conclusion.

>> No.5763996

>>5763899
>Are his characters compelling? Does he write interesting plots? Is there any unique or evocative symbolism in his works?
Yes, yes and yes.

>he's not nearly on the level of Melville, Faulkner, Pynchon or especially Joyce
And who is? If those are the only authors you read, you'd already be out of books.

>> No.5764002

>>5763852
that's an interesting question, did academia review his books? they seem pretty solid, but the prose is imo worse than nabokov's/melville's though

>> No.5764015

>>5763996
>And who is?
Someone just a couple posts up from me said he was, and I was addressing that. I might try him at some point, as he seems somewhat interesting.

>> No.5764017

>>5763899
>Are his characters compelling? Does he write interesting plots? Is there any unique or evocative symbolism in his works?
No; arguable but no as far as I'm concerned; yes but it's catholic christian imagery.

Too old-fashioned to be writing really striking high-SF, but he makes an interesting Dying Earth..