Poetry is dead when shit poetry like this wins 4000$ prizes http://thewalrus.ca/poetry-prize/

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Anonymous Mon Dec 22 15:11:04 2014 No.5894562 [Reply] [Original]

Poetry is dead when shit poetry like this wins 4000$ prizes

http://thewalrus.ca/poetry-prize/

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 15:16:36 2014 No.5894571

>>5894562
>free verse
>creative writing graduate

AHHHHHHHHHH MY AUTISM FUCK YOUUUUUUU I WANT TO BREAK THOSE SHITTY FAGGOT HIPSTER FRAME GLASSES YOU FUCKING CUNT I SWEAR IF I EVER MEET THIS FAGGOT IN REAL LIFE I WILL BREAK EVERY MALNOURISHED BONE IN THIS LITTLE FREAK'S BODY SOMEBODY GET ME OUTTA HERE I'M LITERALLY GOING FULL BRUCE BANNER MODE UGHHHH FUCK YOU I COULD FEED MY FAMILY FOR MONTHS WITH THAT PRIZE MONEY AND HE'S PROBABLY GOING TO SPEND IT ON VINYLS AND ORGANIC HUMUS WHAT A DUMB PIECE OF TALENTLESS SHIT

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 15:17:58 2014 No.5894577 >>5894562 top kek

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 15:23:16 2014 No.5894588 File: 48 KB, 460x276, 1398750493364.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5894571 I know your feel bro.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 15:26:51 2014 No.5894600 ITT immense contrarian butthurt

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 15:30:44 2014 No.5894611 I don't know how I'm supposed to begin relating to this

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 15:33:35 2014 No.5894620 >Charlie McCarthy may be my homeboy, but that suede coffin is my home. >Got wood? It's all I got. God is dead and this poem killed Him.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 15:35:18 2014 No.5894625 >>5894600 No one is impressed that you can point out the obvious, even if that is all you're good for

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 15:37:12 2014 No.5894631 Why do people always link directly to the page that they're so upset with? Paste the poem so I don't have to give them traffic (also my phone's browser crashes on that site)

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 15:43:19 2014 No.5894657

Ventriloquism for Dummies
By Michael Prior

Pine plosives, alveolar carpentry:
my life, lived like an elaborate glove.
Tilt my head, a pale seashell scribed by lathe,
and listen to the few unfurling thoughts,
the dry shake of dust. Semper idem, no?
I loved that girl with the Cheshire-cat grin
inked across the nape of her neck’s vellum.
My hinged digits once traced its glow as if
it were a sliver of moon. Nowadays,
she works nights on an alabaster lake.
My first thought was, he lied in every word,
and I wasn’t wrong. Charlie McCarthy
may be my homeboy, but that suede coffin
became my home. Evenings in the valley,
I dreamed a redwood forest. At its heart
was another jester with a cheap suit
and misplaced mandible. Drop me, toss me,
and I lie limp: a tidal tryst of bleached
branches, a good joke gone bad, or a line
soured by time. Got wood? It’s all I’ve got.
Try not to notice these synchronized lips,
that hoary cripple, with malicious eye.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 15:44:13 2014 No.5894660 >>5894571 It's blank verse, you dipshit.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 15:49:20 2014 No.5894677 >>5894562 Translate for those Romanian Foxes. brother, we go out tonight ? Do not stay long , drink little and leave. - 4:35 O'clock

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 15:52:36 2014 No.5894683 >>5894660 >inked across the nape of her neck’s vellum. / x / x / x x / / x If it's blank verse, it's a very liberal blank verse.

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Mon Dec 22 15:54:25 2014 No.5894687 >>5894657 lol, a perfect example of writing down random words

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 15:56:14 2014 No.5894691 Wow, it's like...poetry.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 15:59:08 2014 No.5894698 >>5894657 I don't even care much about poetry but wtf is this shit and why do they use this form when it's not in verse?

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 15:59:42 2014 No.5894702 >>5894657 Holy shit this is trying so hard to sound good. So overwritten.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 16:01:12 2014 No.5894713 it's iambic pentameter

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 16:03:38 2014 No.5894719 File: 87 KB, 446x600, arthur-rimbaud-18721.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >Rimbaud will never rekt these university faggots and their shitcore poetry

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 16:46:29 2014 No.5894850 >>5894691 hgggn hggngnngng hghngngngngngngngg I CAN'T HOLD IT IN ANY LONGER ...it rhymes

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 16:48:06 2014 No.5894853 Thesaurus: The Poem

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 16:49:02 2014 No.5894859 >>5894562 >write prose >be ambigous >use the right words >insert newlines ramdomly in the text >win

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 16:49:03 2014 No.5894860 >>5894713 >>5894660 No it's not you morons

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 16:53:46 2014 No.5894870 I wish they would have offered an explanation for why it won. It's awfully fucking banal

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 16:55:34 2014 No.5894878

>>5894660
>>5894713
I'll scan the first few lines how they'd read in modern English scansion. x are unstressed, / are stressed. Syllabic metre is for Greeks.

>Pine plosives, alveolar carpentry:
/ /x /xx/ /x/
>my life, lived like an elaborate glove.
x/ /xx x/xx /
>Tilt my head, a pale seashell scribed by lathe,
/x/ x/ x/ / x /
>and listen to the few unfurling thoughts,
x/x xx / x/x /

Either you're both retarded or you're trolling. Especially to think this is in iambs

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 16:55:47 2014 No.5894879

>>5894562
>one poetry prize
>poetry is dead
Not really, it's moving at the same snail pace as it always did, the market is just saturated with drivel.

If one good poem is published and no bad poems are published, one good poem is published.

If one good poem is published and twenty bad poems are published, one good poem is published.

It doesn't really make any difference...

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 16:57:03 2014 No.5894882 >>5894687 It's not the least bit random you dumbass. Learn how to read

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:04:40 2014 No.5894894 >>5894677 hahaha that was a good one. It's been a long time since the last time I laughed. Thanks anon.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:05:55 2014 No.5894896 >>5894878 You didn't scan it properly but whatever, it doesn't have a consistent meter. Who cares. It's stupid to expect that out of poetry nowadays, as there's been plenty of great poetry that doesn't

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:09:19 2014 No.5894900 >>5894896 yes he did yes we should; the difference between this guy and, say, pound, is that pound was deliberate with his free verse whereas this is prose with haphazard line breaks and purposeless enjambment

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:09:20 2014 No.5894901 >>5894702 >>5894853 >>5894859 If you think this poem is the least bit difficult or is even trying to be difficult then you're a moron who probably had trouble reading Infinite Jest

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:10:44 2014 No.5894905 >>5894900 That person doesn't know how to pronounce "alveolar" lmao

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:15:18 2014 No.5894915 >>5894905 neither do you apparently

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:16:26 2014 No.5894917 >>5894915 no one says ALveoLAR, anon

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:20:16 2014 No.5894925

>>5894900
the line breaks aren't exactly haphazard but it's true that the poem only makes use of them and enjambments because of convention, however if the poem had been written in some consistent meter, it would have been for the exact same reason, and the poem wouldn't have been any better for it

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:20:58 2014 No.5894930 >>5894915 >>5894917 http://www.howjsay.com/index.php?word=alveolar&submit=Submit - / - - alveolar

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:23:02 2014 No.5894935 well it's certainly better than the shit that gets posted here

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:23:36 2014 No.5894939 >>5894925 It would have demonstrated some sort of technical skill at the very least. It would still be a bad poem, but a bad poem written in metre is better than a bad poem written without imo.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:29:15 2014 No.5894955 >>5894935 I don't agree. I'd say it's on the same level as shit the gets posted here. Obvious thesaurus buttfuckery, enter-key-sodomy, strange use of enjambment and caesura, no technicality whatsoever. This is like cookie cutter /lit/ poetry

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:33:15 2014 No.5894966 >>5894687 is that the technique you use to make all of your posts so trite and unintelligent?

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:33:40 2014 No.5894967 It's actually quite good. The wannabes are positively green with envy.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:34:07 2014 No.5894969 >>5894939 On the contrary I think it would have likely made the poem more obviously bad, though perhaps forgivable if it were some class assignment in use of meter and not a winner of a 4000$ prize

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:36:13 2014 No.5894974 >>5894967 >it's actually quite good Hot opinion, mind explaining why?

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:36:14 2014 No.5894976 >>5894657 None of these metaphors make any sense. They literally don't add anything.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:37:02 2014 No.5894978 >>5894967 It's a poem written from the perspective of a ventriloquist dummy, and it's completely serious about it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:37:58 2014 No.5894984 >>5894969 >would have the poem more obviously bad How come? I understand the distaste for random metre with no purpose other than being written in metre, but why is that worse than completely ignoring technicality altogether?

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:38:44 2014 No.5894986 >>5894978 >and it's completely serious about it. Yeah, "Got wood?" very serious, though. You guys really are jealous.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:40:01 2014 No.5894991 >>5894986 See >>5894974

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:40:35 2014 No.5894997 >>5894984 Imagine those words written with a sing-songy cadence. Doesn't that make you cringe even a little?

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:40:39 2014 No.5894998 >>5894657 Actually I change my mind. This is pretty good. I've seen a couple comparable poems in the critique threads here on /lit/, but this poem has a pleasant amount of polish. I like it

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:42:28 2014 No.5895001 >>5894998 Thank God I never bothered reading those threads lol

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:43:40 2014 No.5895006 >>5894997 I suppose, but not all metre is sing-songy. I believe the form itself has more to do with how sing-songy a piece is, personally. A ballad as opposed to, say, a sestina for example.

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:46:58 2014 No.5895020

>>5894974
Yeah, sure. The subject matter is interesting, the phrases create some nice flourish (misplaced mandible), some of the ideas are creative (unfurling thoughts / the dry shake of dust), and even the hokiness you guys latch onto is in synch with the subject matter--it's about a ventriloquist dummy, after all. Not exactly high art.

In short, it's better than anything you guys have submitted anywhere, and you all know it. It's why you're so thoroughly mad.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:48:49 2014 No.5895030 >>5894878 >Pine plosives, alveolar carpentry: Pine plo - sives al- veol - ar carp - entry x / x / x / x / x five metrical feet.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:50:10 2014 No.5895037 >>5895030 lol

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:51:28 2014 No.5895040 >>5895030 Nice wrenching, but pine is not an unstressed syllable

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:55:03 2014 No.5895049

>>5895020
>The subject matter is interesting,
This is another opinion
>the phrases create some nice flourish (misplaced mandible),
Another opinion
>some of the ideas are creative (unfurling thoughts / the dry shake of dust),
Yet another. I think it's boring.
>and even the hokiness you guys latch onto is in synch with the subject matter--it's about a ventriloquist dummy, after all. Not exactly high art.
I don't think anyone's said otherwise.

I don't know where you're from but in most literary circles, it doesn't suffice to back up an opinion with more opinions.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:55:22 2014 No.5895050 >>5895020 Do those cliches really impress you? lol, you know they're terrible, and that's why you have to resort to the "you couldn't do any better" and "u mad" fallacies

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 17:59:55 2014 No.5895062 >>5895049 Are you retarded? You asked him to explain his opinion and he did. How objective can you get while analysing a poem? It's not as if it's a game of statistics, all analysis on literature and poetry are essentially opinions.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:01:21 2014 No.5895071 >>5895049 >discussing poetry >wanting ''facts'' about it This is literally the autistic way to discuss something that is supposed to convey feelings.

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:03:04 2014 No.5895078

Guys guyys gyugyusyugys! Guys. GUYS!

We have a real chance here to dissect this poem.
Can we do a collective criticism of it? Line by line. Here we go.

Let's start with the title:

>Ventriloquism for Dummies
Making a pop-culture reference to "for Dummies" books. Blech. Ventriloquism will likely have something to do with the subject matter of the poetry. Perhaps it's implying that the poem is going to be about ventriloquism for ventriloquist dummies? Ugh. Getting pretty meta and post-modern.

First line
>Pine plosives, alveolar carpentry
Starts off with an alliteration. Plosives and alveolar are linguistic terms used to describe specific consonant sounds and mouth shapes. Ok. Perhaps these words are hard to pronounce when you are performing ventriloquism? Pine/carpentry are just references to what a ventriloquism dummy is made out of usually I guess.

Second line
>my life, lived like an elaborate glove.
Ok, so that's a neat way of describing the life of a ventriloquist dummy. Not bad.

Third line
>Tilt my head, a pale seashell scribed by lathe,
Now this is kind of weird. The wooden head of a dummy maybe lathed, but where does a "pale seashell" figure in here? The head is resemblant of a lathed seashell? What?

I will continue on further if someone encourages me.

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:03:14 2014 No.5895080

>>5895062
No, are you?

There's a difference between saying
>this is bad
Then explaining why by saying
>the metre is nonexistent
>random enjambment
>needlessly flowery diction
>cliché
because these can be proven. These are facts.

>this is good
>because it's interesting :))
is retarded and you are an imbecile

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:09:23 2014 No.5895099 >>5895078 I like this. It's actually a /lit/ worthy reply. Go on.

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:13:15 2014 No.5895114

>>5895080
>the metre is nonexistent
Free verse poetry is a thing.
>random enjambment
Random because you do not understand it, maybe. This is also an opinion.
>needlessly flowery diction
This is not an opinion? Okay. It didn't seem needless to the people who awarded him the prize.
>cliché
You're going to prove something is a cliché? You're going to invest his head to see if he read someone else who wrote it? You're going to list all the times a particular phrase has been used, and then establish the line where something becomes cliché?

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:16:21 2014 No.5895125

>>5895099
Thank yuh!

Fourth Line
>and listen to the few unfurling thoughts
Common to ventriloquist acts, is when the dummy turns its head to "hear the audience"--so I'm guessing that this is what it means

Sixth line
>the dry shake of dust. Semper idem, no?
What the hell does dry shake of dust have anything to do with anything? Have not a clue. Latine: [always the same], no? WHAT? Why use latin? Totally out of place. "All the same" also doesn't have anything to do with anything? Is the speaker of the poem making a meta joke about "great poets" randomly inserting latin to make themselves sound great, so the dummy is trying to poorly mimick that? I fucking hate it when these post-modern bullshit monstrosities rely on me to project meaning on this shit (meaning that wasn't intended to be there).

This poem is pissing me off, I quit.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:17:44 2014 No.5895132 >>5895114 It meant to say investigate.

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:18:25 2014 No.5895136

>>5894882

i dunno how it's not random when it's random

i mentioned it multiple times (once even wrote a piece myself that way) but this one is like a perfect example, especially because he got the first prize too

check this >>/lit/thread/5491902#5491995

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:23:41 2014 No.5895152

>>5895114
>Free verse poetry is a thing.
Yes and we've expressed clearly in this thread why this is detrimental.
>Random because you do not understand it, maybe. This is also an opinion.
It's not an opinion. Please, enlighten me as to why he decide to use a line break here
"Tilt my head, a pale seashell scribed by lathe,
and listen to the few unfurling thoughts,"
>This is not an opinion? Okay. It didn't seem needless to the people who awarded him the prize.
The people who awarded him the prize are no doubt clueless otherwise he wouldn't have been awarded anything other than a polite "sorry." It's not an opinion because it is needless. He could have conveyed the same exact meaning and feeling without being so heavy handed.
>You're going to prove something is a cliché? You're going to invest his head to see if he read someone else who wrote it? You're going to list all the times a particular phrase has been used, and then establish the line where something becomes cliché?
So you're telling me clichés don't exist? Even if someone isn't aware that they're writing a cliché, it's still a cliché.

>Her eyes were as deep and blue as the ocean
>hurr prove this isn't cliche!!!!
This is you

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:25:09 2014 No.5895158 >>5895152 >we've expressed clearly in this thread why this is detrimental. Where is that explanation given in this thread?

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:25:55 2014 No.5895160

>>5895049
>I don't know where you're from but in most literary circles, it doesn't suffice to back up an opinion with more opinions.

I don't know where you're from, but in ALL literary circles, all you can do is stack opinion upon opinion. The crap you limn here is all based upon an implied opinion that these things:

>>5895080
>>the metre is nonexistent
>>random enjambment
>>needlessly flowery diction
>>cliché

Are bad. You are using nothing but pure opinion and you don't even know it. You are no literary scholar. Merely a pretender on 4chan.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:27:31 2014 No.5895165 >>5895160 Yet you don't prove him otherwise. Nice. >metre is nonexistent This is an actual fact and is not based on "implied opinion" whatsoever. Quit talking out of your ass, moron.

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:31:11 2014 No.5895178

>>5895165
And you don't understand the point of my post at all, further displaying your lack of credentials.

It's ignorant to say the metre is "nonexistent", since it would have to have some metre, even if it was one you thought unmelodious, but that's not even worth arguing--I just want to point out your misuse of words.

>This is an actual fact and is not based on "implied opinion" whatsoever.

The implied opinion, little thinklet, is that a "nonexistent metre" is bad. If you still have trouble understanding this, get a 2nd grader to explain it to you.

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:31:58 2014 No.5895180

>>5895152
>Yes and we've expressed clearly in this thread why this is detrimental.
Opinions Opinions Opinions! Do you read your own posts? Why are you posting your opinions here.
>It's not an opinion. Please, enlighten me as to why he decide to use a line break here
I don't know. I'm not the poet. But why isn't it an opinion? There can be meaning behind the line break that helps the poem,
>The people who awarded him the prize are no doubt clueless
Opinions! You are not very good at this, are you?
>So you're telling me clichés don't exist?
Yes, they do. But this is not exactly filled with ocrean blue eyes and tranquil meadows, now is it?

Anyways, stop with the opinions and give me some facts, big boi.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:33:23 2014 No.5895182 >itt: retards continually out-retarding other retards

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:35:51 2014 No.5895192 >>5895182 By calling everyone retards from the sidelines, you look so much better and more intelligent, you have no idea. Gosh, I just bet your mind is full of great stuff you're intentionally denying us "retards". It makes me so sad!

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:38:20 2014 No.5895203 >>5895078 >>5895125 Underrated post.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:40:19 2014 No.5895208 >>5895192 >retard strikes again

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:41:15 2014 No.5895212 >>5894657 This reminds me of my lit teacher telling us how he used to get high, flip through pages of books, point to random words, then write them down. They got published in Harvard journals. Its Poe's law in poetic form.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:42:55 2014 No.5895218 >>5895203 Hardly. He doesn't even get how the author equated the dummy's thought processes to shaking dust. Just a silly "OMG, this has nothing to do with anything." >Have not a clue. No shit.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:43:42 2014 No.5895223 >>5894878 What's the point of constraining poetry with your autism? Go read some Rimbaud or some Celan or Ashbery and count the x's against the /'s to see if they're good I guess.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:45:51 2014 No.5895229 >>5895212 >They got published in Harvard journals well his authority probably helped if he worked in academia

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:47:12 2014 No.5895234 >>5895223 you are retard, that anon disproved that it's blank verse also free verse got old ages ago, it's not 19 century anymore for it to be edgy

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:47:13 2014 No.5895235 >>5895223 This post is legitimately everything wrong with most contemporary poetry and I'm being 100% sincere.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:47:37 2014 No.5895236 >>5895218 >He doesn't even get how the author equated the dummy's thought processes to shaking dust. With textual examples, argue your point. Otherwise you're just pretending.

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:50:53 2014 No.5895244
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Remember folks, never argue on /lit/ without providing and requiring textual examples--it's the litmus test to find out if you're being trolled.

Trolls don't like doing hard work like posting textual examples and quotations, they just like to insult you and act retarded.

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:53:58 2014 No.5895254

>>5895236
Yeah, sure.

>and listen to the few unfurling thoughts,
>the dry shake of dust.

Pay special attention to the "listen to the few unfurling thoughts," and then the noise of "the dry shake of dust".

It can be a little hard to catch, if you aren't watching closely, so lines 4 and 5, read them closely. Okay? You with me? It says, okay, line 4, now, "listen to the few unfurling thoughts" and then--it's hard to find, but line 5, now: "the dry shake of dust"

Did you get it this time?

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:54:16 2014 No.5895256 >>5895235 Who are your favorite poets from the past century?

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 18:57:07 2014 No.5895265

>>5895236
>>5895244
I'd say asking for "textual examples" when there's a link in OP and the poem itself was posted in the thread is far more trolly than not providing them.

You're very fond of this phrase, "textual examples". Read your two posts over and you'll see it's rather comical.

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 19:00:16 2014 No.5895275

>>5894879
well, what about that some good poem wasn't published because the place was taken by some doggerel like this? or that somebody wasn't encouraged with a prize for making a good poem but this shitter was? i'm pretty sure that there were some decent poems on that contest which were ignored

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 19:03:28 2014 No.5895286 >>5895275 >wahhhh, why does no one want to publish my Petrarchan sonnets!

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 19:03:33 2014 No.5895287

>>5895254
>Tilt my head, a pale seashell scribed by lathe,
>and listen to the few unfurling thoughts,
>the dry shake of dust. Semper idem, no?

Ok, so according to you the dummies thought process equals the shaking of dust.

According to you, when the dummy "tilts his head," describes his head as a lathed seashell, then proclaims that he will "listen for the few unfurling thoughts," and what he hears is "the dry shake of dust," then produces a latin quote of "it's all the same" followed by a Romance affirmation from the speaker of saying "no?"

Could you please explain to to me how dust makes noise? How a dummy can hear "shakes of dust" while turning his seashell lathed head to listen to "unfurling thoughts"? Can you explain how the latin quote has any relevance to what is said before it? What is "all the same? The unfurling dust thoughts?

I eagerly await your sage explanation and expostulation of your high-born interpretation skills.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 19:05:28 2014 No.5895294 >>5895286 i'm a reader. my annoyance is due to people like that guy i don't read any contemporary poetry at all

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 19:10:50 2014 No.5895310 >>5895078 read the whole thing and then do a line-by-line critique ya nitwit

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 19:11:27 2014 No.5895311

>>5894562

I thought it was good. I've read much worse prize-winning lit in Canada. I was actually expecting to hate it, because I think the general rule of thumb in Canada is if it wins a prize, it's probably crap.

But this was good. Not great, but solidly good. Thank you for making me a little more comfortable with my country's literary scene.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 19:14:43 2014 No.5895324 >>5894939 Dana Gioia pls go.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 19:16:21 2014 No.5895328 >>5895310 I don't think you know how poetry works. G'day.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 19:20:44 2014 No.5895339 File: 66 KB, 600x904, COMBAT-DE-BANANES.jpg~original.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5895254 yooooooooooooooooohooooooooooooo Mr.sarcastic, I replied, please respond (with textual examples of course):>>5895287

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 19:22:57 2014 No.5895351

>>5895287
>Could you please explain to to me how dust makes noise? How a dummy can hear "shakes of dust" while turning his seashell lathed head to listen to "unfurling thoughts"?

You're really grunting and straining to save face, here, on this anonymous forum. It's not necessary.

>Can you explain how the latin quote has any relevance to what is said before it? What is "all the same? The unfurling dust thoughts?

No, the phrase isn't just some Latin words. As with most Latin phrases that are still in use, it has a historical significance. It's a phrase used to invoke the timelessness of Christ, probably an ironic comment about how man was made of dust, according to the Bible.

Just because you can't understand it doesn't mean it's shit.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 19:24:18 2014 No.5895354 >>5894562 The problem with all writing competitions is that the winners almost always stink of institutionalized creative writing classes. They are all so desperately identical. Who wants to go murder some critics?

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 19:27:22 2014 No.5895367 >>5895351 lol you've been rekt hard good sir. Twas a trivial, I hardly enjoyed my victory over you. Death to postmodernist "sand-box free-play" literary criticism. https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/722/08/

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 19:44:06 2014 No.5895415

>>5895351
>It's a phrase used to invoke the timelessness of Christ, probably an ironic comment about how man was made of dust, according to the Bible.

Lol'd. Attacks anon for not understanding it. Attributes the lines to irony and claps himself on the back. Sleep tight tonight, you've done well.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 19:58:27 2014 No.5895449 >>5895354 >Who wants to go murder some critics? I'm in, when where? Also, can we throw in professors who assign Stanley Fish and Cleanth Brooks?

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 20:27:06 2014 No.5895564 File: 18 KB, 300x426, eDhP3UU.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5895078 >>5895125 >>5895287 >>5895367 God Tier Posting.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 20:36:53 2014 No.5895617 File: 26 KB, 396x400, 1419065916665.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5894562 >writing >art

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 22:16:51 2014 No.5896081

>>5894878
Blank verse isn't always in strict iambs. Check out page 4 of Robert Burns Shaw's Blank Verse. This poem is in blank verse.

And something being in free verse (and this isn't) doesn't mean it doesn't have metrical patterns, and free verse certainly isn't inherently inferior to traditional metrical verse forms. I don't really care to read your superstitious explanation about why you think it is.

I'd also like to point out that the way you assign stress would make much of Shakespeare's blank verse into "free verse."

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 22:29:20 2014 No.5896153 >>5896081 By "this poem" I mean "Ventriloquism for Dummies." The page in Shaw's book sketches a couple of reasons for deviating from iambs, and these reasons are expanded on elsewhere in the book.

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 22:34:23 2014 No.5896180

>>5895152
He uses a line break there to emulate the pause between between the moment that the narrator tilts his head and the moment that he begins to hear his thoughts. It takes a second to shift mental gears, and the poet acknowledges this.

This is why you don't like the poem. You don't understand it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 22:34:42 2014 No.5896181 >>5896081 >>5896153 Shut up :^) You're not a good poster.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 22:35:50 2014 No.5896191 >>5896180 >It takes a second to shift mental gears, and the poet acknowledges this. Dat post-modernist literary criticism.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 22:35:52 2014 No.5896192 >>5896081 when literally every line has its own metric pattern it's either free verse or simply prose that guy answered to those who claimed it to be blank verse or even specifically iambic pentameter, those claims were obviously false

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 22:38:36 2014 No.5896203 >>5896191 Well, would you analyze The Wasteland according to Shakespearean standards?

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 22:41:55 2014 No.5896216 >>5894997 it's already sing-songy without any meter

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 22:43:32 2014 No.5896224 >>5896203 No, you'd burn wasteland. I used to think burning books was one of the worst things a person could do, but now after I see the degeneration of Western Culture, I'm wavering in my convictions.

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 22:48:20 2014 No.5896239

>>5896192
According to you, not according to a scholar of the entire form. Even on the Wikipedia page it isn't a hotly contested issue that their definition allows poetry that doesn't use strict iambs. It's blank verse. You can qualify that; you can say, "a loose sort of blank verse," or, "a ragged, jokey, informal blank verse," or, "the blank verse a paint huffer would write," but blank verse is the form that guides the form of the poem above, and it's the pattern that guides the reader as they read it. You're being unnecessarily prescriptive. Meaning doesn't come from the sky; it comes from use, and many people who write about poetry for their reputation and their livelihood will call all but the most metrically perverse and ornery unrhymed pentameter "blank verse."

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 22:51:00 2014 No.5896250 >>5896239 Blank verse is iambic pentametre with no rhyming scheme. It's not debated or contested. Ur rekt, deal with it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 22:51:53 2014 No.5896253 >>5896224 >not understanding that Eliot had an impeccable knowledge of the classics that he applied to The Wasteland >decrying degeneracy in Eliot but giving Shakespeare a pass >being this much of a philistine

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 22:52:29 2014 No.5896254

>I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND IT ON MY FIRST READ-THROUGH THIS IS BULLLLLLLSHIT

I thought it was pretty funny. Glad he won. It's pretty embarrassing that anyone thinks poetry can be defined as rigidly as some of you dummies think. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of the history of poetics must know that neither rhyme nor meter is intrinsic to poetry. If anything, it's a really sad sign that high school and its exclusive focus on a handful of English Romantics has forever brainwashed people who probably consider themselves "rebels" or at least people who dislike "society."

Comparing the head to a "pale sea shell scribed by lather" is actually pretty brilliant. Just because you don't know anything about Greek mythology doesn't mean that's not an amusing line for intelligent people.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 22:53:04 2014 No.5896255 >>5896253 Use a textual example from The Wasteland and explain why you think it has literary merit.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 22:55:11 2014 No.5896263 >>5896254 >pale sea shell scribed by lather It's not lather, it's "lathe"--you know? That machine you use to carve wood? hahahahahahahahah -5/10

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 22:57:31 2014 No.5896271 >>5896263 A seashell on the beach would be "scribed" by the foam lather of tide.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 22:58:51 2014 No.5896276 >>5896263 I know... That was a typo. Obviously one cannot possibly "scribe" with "lather." If you knew anything about Greek mythology - we're talking basic stuff here - you'd understand I was referring to the pale seashell.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 22:58:56 2014 No.5896277 >>5894657 I liked the reference to Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came, but the rest was shit

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 23:00:24 2014 No.5896284 File: 491 KB, 500x375, giphy.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5896271 >>5896276 Guys, you're not good posters, sorry.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 23:03:04 2014 No.5896290 >>5896284 No I really don't think you understand either the recurring carpentry/linguistics or the references to poetic traditions (including greek mythology) going on in this poem...

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 23:04:28 2014 No.5896295 File: 2.99 MB, 480x320, 1418943447933.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5896290 >no textual examples or expanded criticism >No sources >no effort whatsoever Try harder.

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 23:08:46 2014 No.5896312

>>5896239

dude, you are just silly
at the very end you should know that apart from imabs
trochees, spondees, dactyls and anapests exist as well

every line has its meter
but when they are different for every line and never repeat
we cannot name it blank verse i'm sorry but it's the rule

^ this is 'a loose sort of blank verse', that ventrilostuff is free verse

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 23:10:14 2014 No.5896317

>>5896295
Plosive is a "phonetic" term meaning any word that produces a total stop in speech, or that stops air from entering the throat temporarily. An alveolar is another phonetic term. It's basically any consonant you form by pressing your tongue to the tip of your teeth.

So you have a rough consonant "pine" being linked to "plosives" and a slightly more complicated array of consonants, "carpentry," being linked to "alveolars" (the "try" in carpentry is an alveolar - try saying it slowly, you'll see).

But think of those images. Pine and carpentry. Pine is raw material, carpentry is the art performed on the raw wood. Language is a raw material, and poetry is the creative act upon that material.

Srsly that's all happening in the first line. Just because you you took zero time to think about it doesn't mean it's bad poetry. I'll see you in class next week.

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 23:15:11 2014 No.5896331

>>5896250
The Wikipedia entry, which is up for debate by those editors who collectively write the page, disagrees with you. A scholar of blank verse disagrees with you. Terms can be more inclusive than you seem to want to allow them to be. You can't order the world exactly as you want it to be. You can arrange your action figures by size on your bookshelf, but outside of your hole the world is messier and more complicated and more contingent.

Frost wrote non-iambic blank verse. Large parts of Macbeth are in non-iambic blank verse. I'm not "rekt" (are you 14 years old?), I'm reasonable, flexible, not so fucking, excuse me, autistic.

You come at poetry the backwards way, with the form being paramount and the content and beauty of the poem being beholden to that form. It's the other way around: the form is just a tool of the poet.

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 23:16:35 2014 No.5896338
File: 1.17 MB, 446x469, 1414011591301.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5896317
>Pine and carpentry. Pine is raw material, carpentry is the art performed on the raw wood. Language is a raw material, and poetry is the creative act upon that material.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 23:20:06 2014 No.5896352 >>5896331 >I can't admit absolute defeat and I'm immensely anal pained Good luck with thinking that "blank verse doesn't have to be in strict meter"

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 23:22:08 2014 No.5896359 >>5896312 The poem is largely iambic, and the deviations are not breaking into other meters. They're just deviations. He's not being any looser with the form than most poets writing blank verse, including Shakespeare.

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 23:23:21 2014 No.5896369

>>5896338
Are you kidding.

You actually can't make that connection.

Carpentry is an art. Carpentry makes use of wood as a raw material. Pine is a type of wood. Therefore, pine is a raw material that the art of carpentry is exercised upon.

Poetry is an art. Poetry makes use of language as a raw material."Pine" and "carpentry" are words within a language system. Therefore, those words/images are the raw material the art of poetry is exercised upon.

Are you sure /b/ or /pol/ isn't more your speed?

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 23:24:09 2014 No.5896374 >>5896352 Good luck with knowing jack shit about poetry.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 23:24:32 2014 No.5896375 >>5896359 when you mean shakespear you probably mean plays good parts of which are not really poetry but prose

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 23:25:57 2014 No.5896380 >>5896375 Good parts of which are regarded by scholars to be in unconventional, messy blank verse.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 23:41:29 2014 No.5896433 File: 63 KB, 960x720, 1416686496468.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5896369

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 23:45:58 2014 No.5896453 >>5896369 give me two any nouns i will connect them that way

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 00:15:44 2014 No.5896553 You could probably post a Walt Whitman poem or something on /lit/ claiming it was written by your little brother and they would proceed to tear it apart ignorantly.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 00:17:26 2014 No.5896558 >>5896553 that's because whitman was a hack and his poems have no value except that of his personality

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 00:24:12 2014 No.5896576 >>5896558 I could rewrite that post a hundred times with a different poet each time and literally not a single one wouldn't elicit this response.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 00:25:39 2014 No.5896582 >>5896576 no, good poems remain good when you don't know who wrote them, most of whitman's poems don't

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 00:30:30 2014 No.5896603 >>5896582 Post a "good poem" and don't say who wrote it.

Anonymous Tue Dec 23 00:33:19 2014 No.5896617

Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate:
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
And summer's lease hath all too short a date:
Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines,
And often is his gold complexion dimmed,
And every fair from fair sometime declines,
By chance, or nature's changing course untrimmed:
But thy eternal summer shall not fade,
Nor lose possession of that fair thou ow'st,
Nor shall death brag thou wander'st in his shade,
When in eternal lines to time thou grow'st,
So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see,
So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 00:35:22 2014 No.5896627 >>5896617 fuck off whitman

Anonymous Tue Dec 23 00:40:26 2014 No.5896649

>>5896617
What the fuck is this shit? This is like a middle school Donne pastiche with too much schmaltz and not enough base insinuations for fear of mommy finding out. "Eternal lines to time thou grow'st"? That sort of writing is just purple patina affecting an antiquated aesthetic. Nothing to say, language for language's sake, masturbatory and decadent. MFAs would eat this shit up. I hate everyone. At least I have Spenser.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 00:47:38 2014 No.5896670 >>5894562 >http://thewalrus.ca/poetry-prize/ yes people who write like that don't amount to shit usually. it's just an exercise in academic masturbation it appears

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 05:47:30 2014 No.5897368 This thread is a perfect example of why /lit/ is shit. There is one god tier poster, and the rest are trolls. Remember folks, textual examples saves /lit/.

Anonymous Tue Dec 23 10:37:33 2014 No.5898000

Unreal City,
Under the brown fog of a winter dawn,
A crowd flowed over London Bridge, so many,
I had not thought death had undone so many.
Sighs, short and infrequent, were exhaled,
And each man fixed his eyes before his feet,
Flowed up the hill and down King William Street,
To where Saint Mary Woolnoth kept the hours
With a dead sound on the final stroke of nine.
There I saw one I knew, and stopped him, crying "Stetson!
"You who were with me in the ships at Mylae!
"That corpse you planted last year in your garden
"Has it begun to sprout? Will it bloom this year?
"Or has the sudden frost disturbed its bed?
"Oh keep the Dog far hence, that's friend to men,
"Or with his nails he'll dig it up again!
"You! hypocrite lecteur! - mon semblable, - mon frere!"

This stanza begins and ends with a Baudelaire reference, which makes sense, because Baudelaire pioneered the mythic method that Eliiot employs here. Unreal actually translates from the French "fourmillante" which means "swarming". The precise state of the crowd is only clear if you understand the references. He continues with a reference to Dante's Inferno that compares the crowd to the crowd of spirits in hell. Then there are explicit references to London, then a comparison with the 9th circle of hell, and then a transcendent meditation on the Battle of Mylae. He condemns the sacrifice that England made for World War II by comparing it to the Battle of Mylae.

You know, the most common edition of The Wasteland comes with Eliot's own notes. I'd recommend you buy that if you actually want to understand modernist poetry, and if you don't, I'd recommend you shut the fuck up about things you don't understand.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 12:02:51 2014 No.5898251 >>5894657 That's pretty good. /lit/ appears to be full of plebs who don't care about the sound of a poem.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 12:16:06 2014 No.5898294 File: 97 KB, 512x512, 1386991871737.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >Got wood? It's all I've got.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 12:18:16 2014 No.5898300 >>5894657 this is what T. S. Eliot did to poetry free verse isn't that bad in the hands of Whitman and Pessoa, but T. S. Eliot uses it as an excuse to paste random images together and make an incoherent collage.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 12:20:27 2014 No.5898306 >>5898300 and Robert Browning anticipates the awful poetry of T. S. Eliot. I don't know who Browning's precursor is.

Anonymous Tue Dec 23 12:23:16 2014 No.5898317

>>5898251
But that's the main problem with that poem, it sounding like shit, having arbitrary line breaks for the sake of poetic affectation and no rythm

("sounds like shit" here means it doesn't sound especially good or interesting, but are we talking poetry or what. Rythm plain bad though)

Anonymous Tue Dec 23 12:30:25 2014 No.5898352

>>5894657
>my life, lived like an elaborate glove.

Today I read almost two pages
In a book by a mystical poet
And I laughed like someone who’d cried a lot.

Mystical poets are sick philosophers
And philosophers are crazy.

Mystical poets say flowers feel
And they say stones have a soul
And they say rivers have ecstasies in the moonlight.

But flowers wouldn’t be flowers if they felt,
They’d be people;
And if stones had a soul, they’d be living things, they wouldn’t be stones;
And if rivers had ecstasies in the moonlight,
Rivers would be sick people.

You need to not know what flowers and stones and rivers are
To talk about their feelings.

Talking about the soul of stones, of flowers, of rivers,
Is talking about yourself and your false thoughts.
Thank God stones are only stones,
And rivers are nothing but rivers,
And flowers are just flowers.

Me, I write the prose of my poems
And I’m at peace,
Because I know I comprehend Nature on the outside;
And I don’t comprehend Nature on the inside
Because Nature doesn’t have an inside;
If she did she wouldn’t be Nature.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 12:32:56 2014 No.5898361 >>5895152 tips fedora

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 12:54:23 2014 No.5898444 >>5894562 This video is the perfect metaphor for poetry analysis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Op3GNXttVYY

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 13:04:07 2014 No.5898479 >>5894657 I rapped the whole thing in my head and it sounded good

Anonymous Tue Dec 23 13:20:08 2014 No.5898547

Okay so we have
>profit, profit. Nigga I get it
>Everybody knows I'm a motjergucking monster
Which makes a great double entendre. He could be just shutting someone by saying "yeah yeah I get it, no need to explain me" or he could be referring to profit, he gets profit. The two meanings can be intertwined too, he gets profit, so it's not necessary to explain anything else.
Then, at the end of the verse we have
>I'm living in the future so the present is my past
>my presence is a present, kiss my ass
Which is great wordplay and alliteration.
I don't know Op. This sounds good to me

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 13:22:51 2014 No.5898559 >>5898547 I thought it was "profit, profit, nigga I got it" not "get it"

Anonymous Tue Dec 23 13:38:23 2014 No.5898639

A man has told me god is good,
and stands above all men,
that he will never cast us forth,
though drenched with lust and sin,
That though we heed him little,
and pursue our own accord
he will not seek our bane nor yet,
unsheath his deadly sword
that he forgives excesses
and will not our prayers reject.

There was rumor in Gomorrah,
to that very same effect.

A friend avers that government,
has all our cares in mind.
And will not neglect the comfort of
the poor, the halt, the blind.
he maintains unreservedly,
his faith in policy.
to bring the fruits of honor to
the strong the just, the free.
he says the great in power seek
the profit of all men

It was mentioned in Treblinka,
but I did not heed it then.

Technology will save us,
i have heard a stranger say.
The wonderment of science,
skill, and tools will win the day.
Our comfort and our safety
we may leave to wise devices.
And men who build and train them up,
will coddle all our vices.
they’ll see the future clearly
and avert all waiting dooms.

I think I heard it spoken in
Titanic’s smoking rooms.

The forgiveness of the strong is great,
I’m sure most men agree.
The wisest and the best of us
will surely all be free.
the bold men, wise in letters
with their eye on public weal.
will never be cast out or forced
their knowledge to conceal.
Time alters soon the hearts of kings,
and all will be put right.

I heard it in the Gulag
almost every single night.

So go forth with the banner
of redemption wafting high
and shout the slogan “Liberty!”
in land and sea and sky.
Of justice, peace, forgiveness, love,
proclaim the coming reign.
And cry the truth to power,
and the vanity of gain
That mercy always triumphs,
and that men will all be free.

Go tell them in Gomorrah,
but you didn’t come from me.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 13:43:43 2014 No.5898662 >>5898559 Hmm, you are right. I don't know if my interpretation still holds but I think it does

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 13:43:47 2014 No.5898663 >>5898639 Wow.

Anonymous Tue Dec 23 13:47:50 2014 No.5898679

>>5894698
The same reason so many modern painters and sculptors create work that looks like shit. Because quality is hard, and the overwhelming majority of modern "high culture" artists chose their niche because they're too incompetent to do anything else.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 13:56:16 2014 No.5898721 You spin me right round Baby, right round Like a record, baby, right round Round, round

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 15:05:26 2014 No.5898974 >>5898639 http://4poet.tumblr.com/

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 15:50:08 2014 No.5899129 >>5896255 >>5896255 not that guy but The Wasteland is one of the pinnacles of any work of art in the modernist movement; the cohesive metaphors are stunning: check out East Coker or even Ash Wednesday for an even more tastefully complex style

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 15:51:32 2014 No.5899133 >>5896369 this guy is right this poem is not drivel, but real post-modern quality

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Tue Dec 23 16:01:04 2014 No.5899181 >>5899129 that's a babbling, not 'textual example'

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 16:08:55 2014 No.5899216 >>5899181 No. This >>5899129 is absolutely, unquestionably correct. The Wasteland is one of the best pieces of poetry written.

Anonymous Wed Dec 24 00:13:17 2014 No.5901100

>>5898300
What? Do you know anything about Eliot beyond what you read about on wikipedia? Eliot was all about tradition and even though his poems were a definite break from tradition, he was till writing verse that was based on tradition. Read the Tradition and the Individual Talent.

Anonymous Wed Dec 24 00:16:56 2014 No.5901110
File: 21 KB, 375x375, 1395344090248.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5899181
Perhaps you and everyone else who seems fixated on textual examples should actually read literature, so they won't need to be spoonfed textual examples to keep up with the conversation, Kitty.

Everything that Anon said is spot on. And providing a textual example from the Wasteland to someone who has not read the Wasteland is pointless.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 00:20:33 2014 No.5901123 >>5898639 This is why you shouldn't listen to people who cry if if a poem isn't written in metre.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 00:28:20 2014 No.5901143 File: 31 KB, 398x500, gongora.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5898300 >paste random images together and make an incoherent collage Heavens, how will poetry ever survive?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 00:43:40 2014 No.5901200 >>5899129 Those are good but I enjoy Prufrock and Preludes more

Anonymous Wed Dec 24 01:02:09 2014 No.5901251

>>5901100
Over half the people who post on /lit/ don't know a goddamn thing about literature or poetry beyond what they've read on Wikipedia. They have a cursory, peripheral knowledge of these things, the culture surrounding them, they can spout stripped down, vague one or two sentence plot summaries and they have a mental list of important figures and books that they've encountered by looking at intellectualism with a lustful eye, but they don't actually know anything about these figures or books. They're all about the image instead of the substance, they find out on Wikipedia what one one of the respected figures has said badly about another and they make generalized statements to the same effect to give the impression that they have a critical eye. The most common example of this is regurgitating Nabokov's opinions on Dostoevsky. They fetishize tradition because that makes them seem "intellectual." Beige blazers and horn-rimmed glasses, namedrop namedrop, sprinkle the word "ontological" in there for no reason and maybe post a picture of Freud smoking a cigar. It's exhausting. The poem in the OP isn't even good, but fuck this place and fuck this thread.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 01:04:24 2014 No.5901262 >>5901123 that poem is "written in metre" and even rhymed, with what do you read, with your ass?

Anonymous Wed Dec 24 01:10:49 2014 No.5901283
File: 907 KB, 256x192, 1339705465962.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5901262
>with what do you read, with your ass?
This quip would have come off better if you would have removed the second "with," so it would read as follows:

>with what do you read, your ass?

Or perhaps if you would have rearranged the words so it would read like this,

>what do you read with, your ass?

I'm always trying to provide helpful tips to make people's posts come off as cleverer than their first drafts, no need to thank me! See you later and have a swell day!

Anonymous Wed Dec 24 01:13:16 2014 No.5901298

>>5894657
Shit like this is why I'm hesitant to try my hand at poetry. To me, it's so subjective that I can't honestly say that Robert Frost, for example, is better or worse than this guy. The only time I can really tell that piece is good is if it has a very obvious emotional effect like Rimbaud's poem about the soldier in the valley.

Help me out /lit/

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 01:14:31 2014 No.5901300 >>5901251 Hey I only post pictures of Freud when I'm making a joke about someone's weird sexual desires

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 01:16:37 2014 No.5901307 >>5901298 frost is crap so no wonder

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 01:17:20 2014 No.5901310 >>5901298 That depends on whether you're talking about one of Frost's easier popular poems, one of his less popular but lovely poems like "Birches," or one of his more difficult masterpieces like "Directive."

Anonymous Wed Dec 24 01:20:38 2014 No.5901323

>>5901310
>>5901307
The main point is that I have trouble telling whether a poem is good. Sometimes I'll read one and feel it's shit, then come back to it in a different mood and love it. That's why it's so hard for me to figure out how academics can generally agree which poets are the very best and which deserve to be forgotten.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 01:21:14 2014 No.5901326 >>5901307 OK but actually he's one of the best poets of the 20th c.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 01:22:37 2014 No.5901332 >>5901323 You have to read a LOT of poetry in order to figure that one out. Start with the Greeks.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 01:22:41 2014 No.5901333 >>5901251 I-I'm an exception to that, I swear!

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 01:25:09 2014 No.5901341 >>5901332 >start with the Greeks Are you meming or should I actually start with Greek poetry?

Anonymous Wed Dec 24 01:28:26 2014 No.5901351

>>5901333
I'm not. Hardly anyone here is. You don't post on /lit/ if you have the knowledge, the intellectual or creative potential to do or make anything worthwhile. You'd probably have people in real life to discuss these things with, whom you can trust much better to actually know what the fuck they're talking about. Anonymous, impersonal communication like this is mostly worthless.

Anonymous Wed Dec 24 01:29:20 2014 No.5901353

>>5901341
Well, you can start wherever you want. I'm assuming English is your native language, so get an anthology of English poetry and read it from cover to cover. I recommend the Norton Anthology of Poetry. You can buy it or download it from the internet if you know how

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 01:30:03 2014 No.5901356 >>5901326 lold he is at best among the second tier american poets, completely unimportant outside of usa

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 01:33:41 2014 No.5901375 >>5901353 I thought you were referring to those guides Aristotle made about writing as well.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 01:34:17 2014 No.5901377 >>5901356 Oh we're doing this "is he important outside his country of origin?" shit again. IN that sense I guess Ezra Pound is technically more "important," but Frost is still a better poet

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 01:40:43 2014 No.5901404 >>5901375 Well, you'll probably want to read Homer, Hesiod, Pindar, Aeschylus, Sophocles and Euripides before (or after) reading Aristotle's Poetics

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 01:44:25 2014 No.5901415 >>5894620 Jesus loves you, anon. Keep fighting the good fight,

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 01:51:10 2014 No.5901442 File: 57 KB, 950x534, 1415340875774.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5894620 >mfw this is actually in the poem

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 02:01:07 2014 No.5901473 >Charlie McCarthy may be my homeboy I'd like to point out that I have no experience with poetry but that line made me cringe. It just seemed to contrived. Fortunately I scrolled down and someone else noticed it too.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 02:09:22 2014 No.5901502 >>5894562 Its a little bit better than typical /lit/ fare. And he won $5000, not $4000...Good bye /lit/, I'm off to write thousand dollar slam poetry attempts.

kitty !kitty/EnNg Wed Dec 24 02:36:15 2014 No.5901588

>>5901323
>That's why it's so hard for me to figure out how academics can generally agree which poets are the very best and which deserve to be forgotten.

they either use their historical importance or the current social/political agenda, like l.e.l. is beginning to get more praise nowadays because she was a woman (they justify it that 'her works have hidden sense' etc) when back then she was criticized as a pleb-tier poet even by virginia woolf who loved female poets in every sense of that word, or like bloom ignores yesenin in his canon because yesenin didn't write pro- or contra-communist poetry

they praise modern poets randomly just like you but since they do it publicly they know who praises whom and so the associates can unite

and finally it's not they who decide who will be forgotten but readers... nowadays academia becomes the only readers of poetry though

Anonymous Wed Dec 24 02:48:51 2014 No.5901628

>>5901588
Well I'm sure that's part of it, but there are poets who academics of all ages admire. Virgil, Dante, Shakespeare, etc. In Shakespeare's day he was praised, but I don't think he was considered the very best. Nowadays, the average person doesn't know shit about Marlowe or Jonson, but they all know Shakespeare, even with no education.

The point is that while "trends" come and go, certain writers and poets are universally lauded by academia over the span of centuries. That can't just be political correctness or trendiness.

The main problem for me is that I can't tell what makes the universally loved poets better than famous, but not nearly as revered ones. Sometimes I read universally loved poets and they feel mediocre to me, so I know I must be doing something wrong.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 03:09:22 2014 No.5901690 >>5894588 i had to study pic related thought it was breddy gud

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 03:18:53 2014 No.5901716 >>5901588 >bloom ignores yesenin in his canon because yesenin didn't write pro- or contra-communist poetry Do you actually believe this bullshit that you come up with or what

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Wed Dec 24 03:21:17 2014 No.5901722 >>5901716 there is literally no other reason to exclude yesenin, one the most significant soviet poets, leaving fucking olesha... olesha omg, that guy is mostly known for a fairy tale about three fat men

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 03:24:47 2014 No.5901725 >>5901588 >>5901716 Kitty is a pretty cool guy m8s

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 03:46:49 2014 No.5901752 >>5894719 iktf >captcha: dnLLang sneering

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 06:23:19 2014 No.5902009 >>5895328 1/10 merry holidays

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/lit/ - Literature