/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.6062160]

So my girlfriend started reading the bell jar and says she really relates to it on a personal. Should I put her on suicide watch?

[Anonymous No.6062164]

>>6062160
End the relationship.

[Anonymous No.6062168]

>>6062160
actually ive been debating whether or not to read that book for quite some time now and im still undecided
yes or no?

[Anonymous No.6062179]

>>6062168
It is one of Plath's better works, and I say this as someone who finds her poetry to be more interesting than most poetry.

Your girlfriend may have bourgeois tendencies though. Criticism/Self-Criticism may be in order.

[Anonymous No.6062180]

>>6062168
Just read the book, it's not gonna kill you

[Anonymous No.6062216]

OP here. We're about to move into an apartment together. Gonna be sure our new apartment doesn't have an oven.

[Anonymous No.6062238]

a lot of it, esp the beginning, isn't all #depressiontext, the first half of the book is partly satire, read the wiki summary or something
>>6062216
she should dump you

[Anonymous No.6062245]

>>6062216
>moving in with a girl who relates to plath
You are fucked.

[Maring No.6062375]

I've read some of Plath but there's something I don't really understand. There's some connection between Plath and feminists, correct? I'd been on the lookout for some kind of underlying gender conflict or something, but I couldn't spot anything. Is it that feminists just like her because she had a tough life, and they think they can relate to that because they think women have it tough?

I realise there are some feminists here. I'm an anti-feminist, but I promise this post has nothing to do with that. I knew these awful twins back in secondary school who big into the modern feminist buzzwords and treating women like helpless children to be protected (this was an all-male school, by the way. They might have changed their opinion after more exposure to the opposite sex in uni), and they were always talking about how great Plath is. That's why I'm asking what the relation is between Plath and feminists.

[Anonymous No.6062382]

>>6062375
Both are mentally unstable and self loathing.

[Anonymous No.6062401]

>>6062375
More than likely they like her because they perceive her as a victim of an evil patriarchal devil-man (Ted Hughes)

[Anonymous No.6062410]

>>6062375

You're right. Plath's writing isn't overtly feminist (in the modern sense.) She's been co-opted by feminists because she's a strong female poet writing about personal experience, probably one of the best - with Snodgrass, Lowell, and Berryman - of the confessional school.

OP stop being a sperg, read the book, and talk with your GF. It's actually a sort of female Catcher in the Rye, so it probably means she has a slight superiority complex.

[Anonymous No.6062489]

>>6062375
p sure most people who are into 20th century poetry are into Plath, or at least appreciate why she's so good

(also, "feminists" aren't a group that all have the same taste or whatever, there's no book club, sorry about your sad prep school life?)

[Maring No.6062511]

>>6062489
We don't have "prep school" where I'm from. And my experience is that people who actively associate themselves with feminism (distinguished from the general population who consider themselves feminist by default) do share very similar views.

I can feel the aggression coming from your post. It will not work. You can't defeat me. I don't give a shit about you, myself, feminism, anything. If everyone died right now, I'd probably get an erection.

[Anonymous No.6062528]

>>6062375
>Is it that feminists just like her because she had a tough life, and they think they can relate to that because they think women have it tough?

what? Sylvia Plath had it a bit better than a lot of women at the time did (she went to a good college, was recognized as being a skilled poet, though undervalued during her life and still reduced since her death bc of her sex or being perceived as dumb sad girl stuff)
a lot of women, a lot of people, can relate to being depressed or feeling weird and alienated and angry, I don't see how you're getting the "women think they have it tough like he so they relate" v relating because she writes about common human experiences and conditions that still exist for women today

[Anonymous No.6062532]

>>6062511
cool for you, in the Us pretty sure all sex segregated schools are private/prep
I don't really care about you inserting details about your bleak life instead of just asking a question, you sound 17

[Maring No.6062661]

>>6062528
Didn't she go through electric shock therapy? That's a sign of a particularly shitty life. And yes, she was well off financially and career-wise. This doesn't make her life better than a housewife who happens to enjoy living.

The only two I remember were about a cliff in France and a tree. I'm not a Sylvia Plath expert. And what you have said actually agree with the quote from me. You're saying that women relate to it because they feel that women in general have it tough, and Sylvia Plath is a woman who struggled during her life so they attach themselves to her. Where's the disagreement?

[Anonymous No.6062664]

Most of Esther's issues are not uniquely feminine. The stuff about Buddy Willard and her virginity hang-ups, yes. The fig tree, no. Read it. It's one of my favorite novels. I am a man.

[Anonymous No.6062667]

>>6062664
but yeah this girl is probz crazy and probz has low self esteem so use that to your advantage and make her do freaky shit. but don't move in.

[Maring No.6062683]

>>6062532
Ok. I'm Irish and most secondary schools (high schools) are sex segregated.

Yeah, the second paragraph of my original post doesn't really serve a purpose. I started it as a pre-emptive strike against possible accusations of me just trying to bash on feminism. I let it go on a bit beyond what was necessary, and I'm not bothered to clear up a post on an internet forum so I left it the block of irrelevant horseshit intact.

[Anonymous No.6062701]

It's a good book, there is plenty to relate to for an educated young woman without worry about her offing herself, shit.

If I can think of something in the book that feminists might latch on to there is the part where she gets a contraceptive and feels empowered

[Anonymous No.6062706]

>>6062661
the way you said "women think they have it tough" and the rest of your post implied that you think oh no women feel bad for themselves -insert anti feminist talking points-, I was saying how women relate to her work, and relate in maybe ways men don't care about or haven't personally experienced because she writes about more women centered subjects like being a wife, motherhood, being a young women etc, but those are aspects of her work

you're saying "women feel they have it tough", i'm saying that a lot of what women go through is tough and Sylvia Plath wrote about some of those tough things that are still the same or similar 10, 20, 60 years later

[Anonymous No.6062712]

>>6062706
*more women centered subjects than you would find if a man wrote autobiographical work, not saying her work is inherently feminine really

[Anonymous No.6062721]

>>6062160
>i am, i am, i am

[Anonymous No.6064118]

What I actually most liked about The Bell Jar was that Esther was a bit of a bitch and her interactions with other people were quite funny.

[Anonymous No.6064145]

hide your ovens

[Anonymous No.6064163]

>>6062375
Please get off of the Internet.

[Anonymous No.6064167]

>>6062160
No, because she just started reading it. The first 80 pages or so aren't suicidal. Later on in the book it becomes some sort of suicide fetish book for a few chapters, but for now, she's just relating to the barby doll hating pretty girl.
>>6062168
I liked it, it's not a hard read, so just go for it.
>>6062375
Not so much hardcore feminist, but the bell jar, for instance, does have a theme of oppression through the standard institutions and expectancies of a woman's life, like marriage and childbirth.

There is also an interesting thing I noticed while reading the bell jar, and that's the psychiatrists. The male being a show off, prestigious, rough doctor, and the female being tender and reassuring, even though they both advise the same treatment.
Especially the male part really matches the psychiatrist in Mrs. Dalloway. He also has a picture of his pretty wife on his desk, turned slightly towards the patient's chair, and is essentially demeaning people by his accessories.

So it's these details that show her gender role portrayal, I suppose, but there aren't any bold die hard feminist lines.

[Maring No.6065284]

>>6062706
In my original post I asked if it's that feminists are interested in her work because they think THEY women have it tough, not because women think that women have it tough. You came back at me saying that this is correct, they feel that women have it tough and so they can relate all women to people like Sylvia Plath who obviously suffered more (emotionally) than a typical person.

Again, where's the disagreement? Most of your post is just attacking my anti-feminism (which has nothing to do with my actual question) and attacking my wording of feminists "thinking that women have it tough". This is trivial.

[Maring No.6065309]

>>6064163
Please don't banish me ;_;

>>6064167
Very direct and informative answer. Thanks bud.

[Anonymous No.6065310]

>>6062168
Go ahead and read it, it doesn't take long. There are good things and annoying things to take away from the book.

[Anonymous No.6065338]

>The Bell Jar.
>Be girl who gets to live in NYC, going to fun events and working a cool writing gig.
>Be depressed even though quality of life is much better than other people.
>Have fake and bullshit girl problems.
>Sort of (but not really) like this boy.
>Find out boy lost his virginity to some skank.
>Decide to get back at boy by being a slut.
>that'llshowhim.jpg
>This is how feminists actually think.

At least the writing isn't complete shit though.

[Maring No.6065362]

>>6065338
Explain this please. Who's this boy you're referring to?

[Anonymous No.6065391]

>>6062375
there's literally a line in it that's something like "I could tell he was a woman-hater"

[Anonymous No.6065398]

>>6065338
Plath's protagonist has a quasi-love interest in the book. She's never strongly interested in him, but there's this sort of understanding that there will be something between the two of them. Eventually he reveals to her that he lost his virginity to some waitress, and the protagonist resents him for it. She later goes out and fucks some random guy just to lose her virginity also.

[Anonymous No.6065437]

>>6062160
The Bell Jar works better as a narrative about mental illness than feminism.

[Anonymous No.6065452]

>>6065338
>Catcher In The Rye
>Be kid at expensive and fancy prep school, going to fun football games and hanging out with intelligent kids
>Be depressed even though quality of life is much better than other people.
>Have fake and bullshit kid problems.
>Sort of (but not really) like this sister.
>Find out she doesn't want to run away to wilderness
>Get drunk and look for ducks
>that'llshowher.jpg
>This is how kids actually think.

At least the writing isn't complete shit though.

[Anonymous No.6065453]

>>6065437

There's a difference?

[Anonymous No.6065456]

>>6065453
*tips fedora with edges*

[Anonymous No.6065464]

>>6065452
except identifying with holden is considered incorrect

[Anonymous No.6065475]

>>6065464
>considered incorrect
by whom?

I was like Holden when I was that age.

[Anonymous No.6065495]

>>6065475
or a better way to put it - actively identifying with holden while above the age of 20 is considered incorrect

most people who read it later in life think "wow, wasn't I such an asshole back then?" instead of heralding holden as a martyr of sorts

[Anonymous No.6065508]

>>6065452
I was actually going to say earlier that The Bell Jar is basically just Catcher in the Rye with a girl.

[Anonymous No.6065517]

reminder that if you think the literary quality of Catcher in the Rye has any relation to whether or not Holden is supposed to be likable, you are a dumb

[Anonymous No.6065599]

>>6065508
The level of intrafamiliaral rape is much lower in Bell Jar.

[Anonymous No.6065635]

>>6065495

Sigh. It's always this opinion.

Holden represents youthful alienation and angst. He's in confrontation with what he perceives to be a phony world that's shallow, deceptive, and ego-obsessed. Yes, he's hypocritical in certain ways and overly judgmental. Nonetheless, he's correct to notice the subtle deceptions and pretensions that are present in day-to-day American life. There is, indeed, a certain amount of "phoniness" to be observed--even if Holden is a flawed character that plays into it himself.

This doesn't go away when a person becomes older, unless they choose to ignore it so that they can pretend to have everything figured out. It isn't like, "Oh, I'm 25 now. I guess that everything is fine. I was mistaken in all of my criticisms of social and cultural institutions. Time to grow up." And do notice that "grow up" always means "eat shit."

[Anonymous No.6065645]

>>6062160
No, she's just on her period the same as Plath was when she wrote anything she ever wrote.

Seriously. She was such a whiny bitch who literally bled herself onto pages.

[Anonymous No.6065668]

>>6065338
who is this jizz wizard?

[Anonymous No.6065687]

>>6065635
Proles don't get an option about eating shit, and most start long before 15. Take your kleine bourgeois bildungsroman and shove it up your arse. The only valid reading of Catcher for a proletarian is that the suburban so called "upper middle class" need a good shooting just as much as the Duponts.

[Anonymous No.6065713]

>>6065668
>I don't know how to reverse search an image because I'm retarded.

[Anonymous No.6066013]

>>6065495
but Esther is funny and 30-70% less mopey than Holden (also she's not a rich girl in the way Holden is a rich lil brat)

[Anonymous No.6066027]

[Anonymous No.6066030]

>>6062160
Man, if I had a nickel for every time my girlfriend started her period and said she wanted to kill herself I would have been able to pay for her funeral.

[Anonymous No.6066183]

>>6065687

>>6065687

Take your slave morality somewhere else, please.

The average lower-income person (or "prole") is often just as bad, or worse, than any bourgeois. They're usually just as egoistic — just as inclined toward industrious, consumerist, wasteful habits. That is, they want to climb the ladder of success; often times, they are more ruthless than any capitalist thought of being.

My main point here, I suppose, is that they strive just as much as the bourgeois does, except in a more cruder and mediocre form: they are full of resentment and bitterness, as you have basically demonstrated with your dumb rhetoric. They have yet to comprehend, or cannot comprehend (because they lack the necessary intelligence and refinement), that wealth and power do not bring about happiness—that they are not the appropriate measures of success.

Consider this very seriously: Does a lower-income position preclude the possibility of defying convention? It may, actually, but not for the reason you would suggest. It would not be due to oppression, exploitation, or any kind of unfairness. No, it would be because they're just too stupid, too crude, too herd-like.

[Anonymous No.6066186]

>>6062160
>she really relates to it

[Anonymous No.6066193]

>>6066186
>tfw bitchy colleagues
>tfw finally, sexual freedom due to contraceptives
>tfw depression
>tfw don't have to marry the first guy coming along anymore
>tfw mother has no clue
>tfw I am my own woman

there's lots for young women to relate to

[Anonymous No.6066204]

>>6065338
>>Be depressed even though quality of life is much better than other people.

[Anonymous No.6066230]

>>6066183
>mounting a patrician defence of kleine bourgeois

Good joke.

[Anonymous No.6066252]

>>6062160

This book is shitty and juvenile trash.

I began reading it last summer and was halfway through and put it down, hopefully to never pick it up again.

[Anonymous No.6066266]

>>6062160
No.

>>6062168
It's not that great honestly. The craft of the work is very average. It is not bad but it has little to no polish and just goes mechanically from point A to B. It is actually very strange considering how great her poetry is.
I won't even get into how horrible and petty the characters and the messages are in the work. The problems Esther gets into are pretty well understood and less shocking now, so her shallow and I think boring character do little to carry the book.

>>6062179
>It is one of Plath's better works
Bullshit it is one of her worse.

>>6065452
You have to be a fucking idiot to compare Catcher to Bell Jar. The craft and content is very different. One of the worst things someone told me before I read Bell Jar was that it was the "feminine" version of Catcher, and it made my outlook on the book far harsher than it should have been.

I wish there was a book of Franny Glass and Esther spending a day together. That would be interesting.

[Anonymous No.6066790]

>>6062179
>Criticism/Self-Criticism may be in order.

[Anonymous No.6067465]

>>6062160
More like you should start sporting a cod-piece.

I'm just kidding. It really is a good book with a poignant message. You should be proud she has such good taste.

[Anonymous No.6067468]

>>6062179
That big black boot poem is the tits.

[Anonymous No.6067476]

>>6062375
That's the thing, though, ultimately is really about common sense motivations to create a happier, more harmonious, better educated, more moral society. If you can't see that, then meditate on the fact that all you really need to do is be a nice and ignore the stuff's that not nice. This is feminism in a nutshell.