[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/lit/ - Literature

View post   
File: 18 KB, 300x300, christopher-hitchens.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6109268 No.6109268 [Reply] [Original]

Do you secretly think less of public intellectuals if you find out they're monolingual?

>> No.6109269

>>6109268
i would think less of anyone, honestly
but my fluent bilingualism is an accident of birth
if i'm making an effort to probe my biases i'm pretty sure that i simply value it because i have it and so valuing it benefits me

>> No.6109288

>>6109269
>i would think less of anyone, honestly
I think some people get a free pass if you think of it as part of their indifference to literature as a whole, which can be understandable.

But it is kind of weird that someone is trying to be part of the "world the ideas" and yet expect everything to be put into one single language and be limited to the culture of the nations who speak that language.

>> No.6109295

If you speak English, it takes less than a year get passable at French or Italian or German. So, yes, I do.

>> No.6109296

>>6109268
I have no doubt /lit/ could find something about anyone that degrades them.

>> No.6109299

>>6109288
there are limits to everything
as long as there isn't the pretense of them not existing, who cares?
are you speaking of a particular intellectual who claims this doesn't matter?

>> No.6109308

It also depends on their field of interest. There's hardly a need for Richard Dawkins to be multilingual, but Zizek as someone part of the continental tradition definitely needs to be as multilingual as he is.

I think people who want to be part of the debate in philosophy, politics and social sciences definitely need some working knowledge of continental languages. And I also believe the hostility of american and british public intellectuals to some ideas belonging to the french, german, russian, italian, spanish traditions is a lot more rooted in their difficulty of understanding them than people want to admit.

>> No.6109314

No, I openly think less of them.

>> No.6109316

i taught myself how to browse tibetan cat orphanage bulletin boards using only my feet. i think less of anyone unable to do the same.

>> No.6109328
File: 75 KB, 500x639, 1389972834410.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6109328

>>6109314
nice

>> No.6109329

>>6109295
Then why do we spend several years teaching those in schools?

>> No.6109333

>>6109329
For the same reason you spend years teaching maths that would take someone interested a few months to learn. The people you're teaching do not care and often do not see use for it in their future.

>> No.6109352

>>6109329
Just for a reference, three months in Italy got me a B2 in an international language examination.
Learning languages is not at all hard, taking your teacher seriously when 14, given tedious tasks, that is. There is no need for 12-3 years of school to get the curriculum done necessarily.

>> No.6109353

>>6109268
no, because if you can speak english there's almost no need to learn any other language

>> No.6109383

Hitchens could speak passable Greek.

He even moved to Southern Cyprus, married a Greek Cypriot, and got married in a Greek Orthodox church. He wrote a book about Greek Cyprus, and his Greek wife spoke Greek with his two half-Greek children when they were growing up. In one of his interviews about Homer, he talks about "battling his way through Greek texts."

Pretty sure he was familiar with Latin too.

>> No.6109389

Despite being a 'celebrated linguist,' Norman Chomsky -- RIP, Norm -- could only speak English.

>> No.6109394

>>6109383
>Q: Are there any other insecurities we should know about?

>A: ‘Money. Never had enough growing up. And I’m full of self-loathing that I don’t speak another language well. And I would have liked to have run for a seat in Parliament. Think less of myself for not doing it.’

>> No.6109434

>>6109389
They say he knows Hebrew.

>> No.6109462

>>6109383
Some greek and latin were mandatory in schools when Hitchens was growing up, and trust me, nobody there graduated able to read a new latin or greek text. Just like you were probably taught french or spanish at school, and you still can't work your way through a wiki article.

And Jesus, you can literally live in a new country for the rest of your life without learning its language. Your point about living in Cyprus and having a greek chick making you proficient on the language is absurd.

>> No.6110022

>>6109268
As a quadrilingual I think less of anyone who doesnt know at least two foreign languages

>> No.6110078

>>6109389
>RIP Norman Chomsky
I almost cwied.

>> No.6110087

Why learn multiple languages?

>> No.6110093

>>6109389
Chomsky knows french

>> No.6110134

>>6109333
This is it, right here. I studied French for three years at school, and German for two, and fully enjoyed it. I used to test my French skills on holiday, and they were pretty poor, but the fact that I did helped me understand the enunciation a lot better.
There were some kids in the class, though, that had no interest in other languages, and never made any attempt to understand it. It used to infuriate me that after two years of German, there were kids in the class who still pronounced 'Wie' as the English 'we', with a soft 'w'. It takes some serious effort to remain that ignorant.

>> No.6110146

>>6110087
You won't get a job as a programmer otherwise.

>> No.6110158

did david foster wallace know any other languages?

>> No.6110160

Alright guys, good job, you learned an Indo-European language or two, now it's time to stop playing on easy mode.

>> No.6110170

>>6110160
Out of IE languages, Italic languages are like sandbox mode for a native English speaker

>> No.6110175

>>6110158
I'm also interested in knowing this

>> No.6110214

>>6109268
speak as many language as your want but your a flick of shit in comparison to noteworthy people who have actually pushed society further through science, theories, literature and other social contributions that have benefited those. You could speak multiple languages, but when you're dead it doesn't really mater what mater is when you're asking the question whether you enjoyed life or spending it learning languages to fill up some inferior complex. At the end of the day most people only give a shit about themselves, no one cares whether your bilingual as long as you speak there language and can benefit of your friendship or contribution that is what matters to others, your judgement only affects people on a small scale in which they will just seek out people that are lesser then them but make them feel good, while you live a bitter life because you benefit no one but yourself.

>> No.6110280

>>6110214
monolingual faggot detected

>> No.6110289

>>6110280
he's partially right though

Language is a means to an end, it has no inherent merit.

>> No.6110296

>>6109268
I speak four languages myself, but to be honest I think the "best" intellectuals know one language, two at most. Rather than wasting their time learning other languages, they're able to focus on history, literature, science, etc. The fact is that there's nothing particularly impressive about knowing multiple languages, nor is there any reason to learn more than one for reasons that aren't practical. Those who think otherwise are typically bilingual people who don't have much else going for them, and so to try to make themselves feel better they overvalue their bilingualism.

>> No.6110303

>>6110158
Nope.

>> No.6110327

i think less of public intellectuals who think not believing in god makes them intellectuals

>> No.6110345

>>6109383
>hates on christians
>married in orthodox church

>> No.6111263

>>6110296
I mostly agree with you. However, having studied greek and latin, I feel as if those languages have enhanced my understanding of English vocabulary and grammar. I think that my improvement in grammar has more to do with my disinterest in the subject when I was younger though.

>> No.6111277

I'm not sure, I'm not 100% on my unconscious ideologies. I don't think I think less of them its just I might think more of the people who are multilingual

>> No.6111284

>>6109268
No, as long as they don't talk about translations as if they were the original.

>> No.6111315
File: 6 KB, 195x259, ireland.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6111315

>>6110022

As a monolingual for most of my life so far, I agree and I think that it's disgusting that american culture doesn't push kids to learn anything other than English

The problem is that public schools teach language so poorly. Three years of French and I sounded completely illiterate, because I basically was. What they do in the US is that you show up for a language class for 1 hour a few times a week, take 2 weeks to learn 15 new nouns, get graded on incredibly simplistic homework, learn about one new tense every few months, and by year 4 or 5 start reading elementary-school level literature in the language, by which case 95% of students have reached the language requirements and moved on to anything else. You play stupid games with partners that don't stress your vocabulary in the slightest. You always have one kid who's already native in the language and shitty in English who gets all of the teacher's attention every though they already read/write/speak the language at a young adult level of comprehension. You study the language as if it's some ancient, foreign artifact and learn grammar rules as if they're math equations rather than part of a living living language. And then at the end of every quarter/semester, you take tests that focus on one set of nouns/one tense rather than cumulative knowledge and overall linguistic ability.

Or, you can teach yourself and move a magnitude faster and treat the language with respect.

>> No.6111349

>>6110327
Is there anyone who does this? Pretty sure even the vast majority of atheist intellectuals admit that there are many intellectuals who are believers

>> No.6111357

I think less of intellectuals if someone calls them public.

>> No.6111406

>>6109389

Chomsky speaks bullshit

>> No.6111426

Ignorant fag reporting in

What is the best approach to learn another language such as German, Italian or French? Keep in mind I've had virtually no exposure to any languages other than England.

>> No.6111521

>>6111426
>any languages other than England.

>> No.6111552

>>6111426
For everyone in this thread thinking about learning a language, go to the sticky in /int/. They have alot of resources to learn. My personal favorite is duolingo. It gameifies learning the language. It is good for reading the language, but not as good for speaking it, but who really cares about talking to people anyways?

>> No.6111598

I dont, but I do think less of people who dont speak english

>> No.6111603

>>6109268
not really
>>6111406
>Chomsky speaks bullshit
i agree. the fucker hates science.

>> No.6111605

>>6109434
>>6111406
loving these

>> No.6111619

>>6109352
Isn't that just proof that immersion in a country makes learning a language a lot easier? For people not hearing the language spoken every day naturally it can be a lot harder.

>> No.6111620

>>6111315
>Or, you can teach yourself and move a magnitude faster and treat the language with respect.
having the guidance and benefit of a native speaker is huge. Maybe you can teach yourself, but I think that getting through beginner levels (A1-A2) is much quicker with a class, and possibly having a tandem partner to help you.

Sometimes it's difficult to teach yourself the grammar, period. You really need a good workbook to push yourself. I work in German and I still don't fully understand (or at least am unable to use) some concepts.

>> No.6111622

>>6109295
Speaking two west-germanic languages doesn't make you bilingual

>> No.6111629

>>6111622
>Speaking two west-germanic languages doesn't make you bilingual
fuck off

>> No.6111632

any man that knows less than 5 languages can't call himself nor can someone call him an "intellectual"

>> No.6111640

>>6111632
agreed

>> No.6111663

>>6109268
Does enlgish count as a second language? If im speaking my mothertongue and english.

>> No.6111671

i wouldn't think less of someone for not being conversationally advanced/fluent in a language

i would think less of them for not being able to read in more than one language though

>> No.6111680

>>6109268
No, I publicly think less of them.

>> No.6111718

>>6111315
Well fucking said, and it's even like this at the college level.

>> No.6111760

>>6110146
>wanting a job as a programmer

>> No.6111763

>>6111760
>trying to be a famous writer
How's that working out for you?

>> No.6111795

>>6111629
You know it's true though.
It takes literally a year to move from one of these to another, while it could take you a half a decade to learn a new language from a new branch.

>> No.6111811

>>6111763
programmer and writer aren't the only two jobs on earth

>> No.6111815

>>6111622
French and Italian aren't West Germanic

>> No.6112426

>>6111620
>Sometimes it's difficult to teach yourself the grammar, period. You really need a good workbook to push yourself.

Workbook is fine, I use tons of books to aid in my self-teaching. They are necessary at first when you're learning the basics, and much later when you're learning the nuances.

Having a partner is different than having a fully grown man/woman baby you through some concepts at a mindnumbingly slow pace. Practice partners are incredibly useful, however, and I try to find people who have skype/free time and who want to practice the same language and are at the same level of fluency. In fact, I'd say it's essential in any living language

As for the teaching yourself thing, I suppose I just am better teaching myself -- in fact, I know I am. Everyone is different -- the problem is for those who require classes, because most of the time the classes are inadequate (imo).

>> No.6112517

>>6111795
English speakers learning French, Italian, or Spanish would be able to speak well enough to get by within a few months assuming full immersion.

I agree with you, but that doesn't mean you're not bilingual.

>> No.6112551

I'm currently a native English speaker moving to Germany soom and learning German. What would be a good language to learn after I'm immersed and become fluent and why?

>> No.6112572
File: 50 KB, 480x714, 140519237246.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6112572

Yes. I'm bilingual, though. Therefore I'm not that far from mediocre.

At least my native language is the prettiest western language, IMO. Portuguese. Those who haven't read any poetry in portuguese won't know how it is beautiful, unfortunately.

>> No.6112585

>>6112572
>how beautiful it is
Fix'd for myself.

>> No.6112608

Lesser than I already do? They're public intellectuals, they are hardly something to look up to. But yes, I do. If you spend a lot of time in intellectual pursuits it follows that learning another language should be one of them, otherwise you're forever stuck with the language which you've been given as an infant, blind to any other linguistic system and its beautiful, intricate workings.

>>6112572
Português é uma língua feia demais.

>> No.6112638

>>6110296
I took a foreign language in school but never pursued it much further. It takes an awful lot of work to be fluent in a language, and even if you are you likely will not ever sound like a native speaker. Even if you have a 'passing' grasp of a language, you'll still sound semi-retarded to native speakers. (Source: all the smart asian immigrants I know who will never speak English perfectly.)

Also, Hitchens obviously had a better grasp of English than most, and so we might say he spent his time on that rather than learning another language. On a similar note, I would rather spend my time perfecting the use of my native language than spending that time learning something I'll likely never speak welrytdo

>> No.6112649

>>6112638
Oh auto-correct and captcha, always adding so much irony to my life.

>> No.6112655
File: 64 KB, 342x245, 1363970571511.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6112655

>>6110134
I know what you mean. All the assholes insisting on pronouncing "le" and "la" and "les" all as "les".

>> No.6112674

>>6112572

Brazilian or european?

>> No.6112684
File: 24 KB, 225x350, CHAR_avatar2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6112684

>>6112674
Brazilian. The european is ugly when spoken, unfortunately. Even the portuguese themselves confirm this as a fact.

>> No.6112706

>>6109329
because they don't teach languages correctly. it should seriously take people six months to be able to read spanish novels and speak it more or less 'fluently'

>>6109268
not particularly

>> No.6112803
File: 48 KB, 500x280, 91.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6112803

>>6109268
I have secretly thought less of Christopher Hitchens ever since I read a quote of his where he didn't like cats or something.

>> No.6112861

>>6109268
Shakespeare probably only spoke English.

>> No.6113759

>>6112517
So assuming I can speak UK english and USA english i'm billingual?

>> No.6113804

I cannot see any logical reason to speak a language other than English.

>> No.6113811

>>6112861
He knew enough Italian to read Cinthio, and had reasonable knowledge of Latin.

>> No.6113829

>>6113804
why not Spanish? it's the other language of the new world

>> No.6113836

>>6113804
As a European, German is as important to know as English, if not more.
I've been lazy to learn it but at least I don't fool myself I'm smart for knowing one of the easiest languages to learn.