/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.6381013]

So what is the /lit/ consensus of the rationality and ethics of suicide?

[Anonymous No.6381023]

>>6381013
>/lit/
>consensus

>any 4chan board
>consensus

[Anonymous No.6381029]

>>6381013
go read Schopenhauer On Suicide

[Anonymous No.6381040]

>rationality and ethics of suicide
>Implying rationality
>Implying ethics

Realists please go.

[Anonymous No.6381072]

>>6381040
You can't make us!

[Anonymous No.6381089]

If someone honestly, and truly believes that there is nothing left in this world for them; then who am I to say they shouldn't opt out? If they got dealt a shit hand, and they're tired of playing with that hand, they are well within their rights to fold and walk away from the table.

Suicide, in my opinion, is justifiable in instances of irreconcilable and manic depression, or despair, which has persisted for long periods of time and shows no signs of letting up. Now, arbitrary bouts of grief or sadness usually don't justify suicide (in my opinion) ex; Hitting a "rough patch" in life, losing a relative, etc.

But at the same time, I believe there are exceptions to that. if you're spouse and soul mate die, I can understand why you might kill yourself. Or, if your job was your main source of enjoyment and fulfillment in life, and you lose that, then I can see why you might kill yourself (see: Bud Dwyer)

[Anonymous No.6381118]

>>6381089
Why do you qualify yourself to cast judgement on someone's right to suicide? If someone wants to commit suicide because their favorite shirt shrunk in the wash they have all the justification they need in their desire, your judgement of whether or not that is justified or arbitrary is inconsequential. A man's life is solely his own.

[Anonymous No.6381149]

>>6381118
do you truly believe this? I find it hard to take seriously.

Watch the documentary about suicide on the golden gate bridge. Many of the flippant idiots 'decided' to kill themselves in an irrational mindset and the ones that survived realized how stupid they were at the time.

If someone wants to kill themselves over a t-shirt, yes it is their decision to do so, but I hope that there would be someone around to stop them, I surely would try.

[Anonymous No.6381152]

There can't be a consensus on the issue because of survivor's bias.

>>6381118
From the perspective of Locke, not really. Every member of society invests a lot into the society, and society performs work on individuals. So while we're free to do as we want, we're not the only ones who can justify having stake in our own lives and opining on the decision of others about destroying theirs.

[Anonymous No.6381160]

>>6381118
I like your line of thinking.

I find it ironic when people plead for someone who is suicidal to think of the damage it causes to others and overcome their selfishness, while pushing their own selfishness.

[Anonymous No.6381165]

I dunno. You're gonna die anyway; why cut it short? Why not ride put whatever hell you're going through?

At least you can look forward to getting what you want. Hell, dying is inevitable. If you're suicidal, at least you can find solace in knowing that you'll get your wish eventually. It's kinda like knowing that you'll get a specific present for Christmas, you just don't know when.

[Anonymous No.6381183]

Since we're all going to die anyway, I've always seen it as brave. In doing so you are getting it over with, setting your own time, and making it yours.

I live the fullest life I can because I know I am going to die, but there is still a part of me that fears death. Maybe even a part of me that would put it off forever if I could. So I admire those who overcome that.

[Anonymous No.6381194]

>>6381183
Yeah this. Suicide is fucking scary. I think it's wrong but you have to be brave as hell to do it.

[Anonymous No.6381199]

Check out Hume's essay on suicide.

[Anonymous No.6381207]

>>6381160
it seems you haven't thought about suicide hardly at all, in all its perspectives

[Anonymous No.6381211]

>>6381149
Your judgement still doesn't give you authority over their fate.

>>6381152
>don't kill yourself because you have an obligation to society
top kek

[Anonymous No.6381215]

>>6381199
this, it is excellent

[Anonymous No.6381218]

>>6381211
You can do what you want, but people have a right to argue against it as well.

[Anonymous No.6381247]

>>6381211
>still doesn't give you authority over their fate
are you trying to ignore me? Take their 'suicidal person' as separate from their 'post-suicidal person'. They would be at odds with eachother more often than not on the security of their decision for suicide, hence the mention of the documentary that you completely ignored, no surprise there, you are content to stay ignorant and yet argue still.

[Anonymous No.6381271]

>>6381247
>They would be at odds with eachother more often than not on the security of their decision for suicide
Can you talk to the dead?

>hence the mention of the documentary that you completely ignored
I have watched it on Netflix, it didn't change my opinion on suicide, if someone wants to commit suicide it is hardly my affair for any reason, and I would only try to stop them out of my selfish desire to not have them die. The fact that some of them "saw the light" later and feel they would have regretted it is just as well a delusion as whatever reason they decided to kill themselves for.

[Anonymous No.6381272]

>>6381152
society isn't a thing you silly doofus

[Anonymous No.6381273]

>>6381165
You do know when: at Christmas. It's the anxiety of the interim that makes for a miserable experience.

[Calypso !DabWKAVCOE No.6381275]

As long as they get a proper burial. all souls go to Hades

[Anonymous No.6381281]

>>6381272
Exit your ass.

[Anonymous No.6381290]

>>6381118
This, fuck anyone who uses emotional blackmail to "argue" otherwise. No one asked to be born, no one needs to ask permission to exit.

[Anonymous No.6381306]

>>6381290
Benatar argued similarly in his defense of suicide. Labeled it as taking control of one's existence.

[Anonymous No.6381314]

>>6381306
That's why he's my nigga.

[Anonymous No.6381321]

>>6381271
>>They would be at odds with eachother more often than not on the security of their decision for suicide
>Can you talk to the dead?
I found the teenager, now i know why your reasoning is completely unrealistic. If you keep this mindset you don't deserve friends or children.

>and I would only try to stop them out of my selfish desire to not have them die
sentence after sentence you make it clear you understand nothing

>if someone wants to commit suicide it is hardly my affair for any reason
what if you have a personal connection to the suicidal individual? the odds are that that suicidal person has a loving connection with someone and they would BOTH be better off without the suicide.

>have regretted it is just as well a delusion as whatever reason they decided to kill themselves for.
prove it, lol

[Anonymous No.6381336]

>>6381273
Oh, my bad. When I said that you don't know when, I meant to say that it's like knowing you'll get a certain present for Christmas but you don't know which Christmas.

[Anonymous No.6381345]

>>6381321
>I found the teenager, now i know why your reasoning is completely unrealistic. If you keep this mindset you don't deserve friends or children.
nice ad hom, m8

>sentence after sentence you make it clear you understand nothing
please formulate an argument otherwise

>what if you have a personal connection to the suicidal individual?
I already addressed this, I would stop them, but doing so would be selfish nonetheless.

>the odds are that that suicidal person has a loving connection with someone and they would BOTH be better off without the suicide.
prove it, lol

[Anonymous No.6381348]

>>6381290
>emotional blackmail
the only thing keeping anyone alive is "emotional blackmail" so why not argue with it

[Anonymous No.6381364]

>>6381348
the only reason you don't kill yourself is because other people don't want you to?

[Anonymous No.6381379]

>>6381345
>prove it, lol
watch videos of young people talking of their friends suicide, <20 year olds, and the arbitrary reason they 'decided' to die, if you can't find them I will link some

>>and I would only try to stop them out of my selfish desire to not have them die
>sentence after sentence you make it clear you understand nothing
is it solely selfish? totally and completely selfish or do other people benefit from the life being lived? Does the future self of the person have a high chance of benefiting?

>I already addressed this, I would stop them
why would you stop them? it is absurd for you to 'allow' preventing a close persons suicide but not stopping a stranger

[Anonymous No.6381387]

It's a repeated assertion that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem, but I don't think that really shows the full picture. The suicidal person isn't only thinking about how he can solve his main problem, he's also thinking about how he can solve EVERY problem that he has or ever could have. That's why the suicidal person can't let his resignation be to live totally and accept his eventual death naturally. He's too aware that in the intervening time, he will (probably) feel miserable still AND be open to even more problems. There are worse things than death.

[Anonymous No.6381388]

>>6381364
yes that is obviously exactly what i said, wow you are so intelligent

your own "emotional blackmail" is keeping you alive, it is not logical to sustain life, but one does so for emotional reasons, i keep calling it blackmail to make fun of the person who called it that, it is a retarded phrase

[Anonymous No.6381402]

>>6381388
Blackmail by definition requires at least two parties.

[Anonymous No.6381410]

>>6381379
>watch videos of young people talking of their friends suicide
I'm arguing for the rights of the person who committed suicide. If it makes people sad it does not justify taking away someone's right to their existence, no matter the reason.

>is it solely selfish?
in that moment where somebody wants to commit suicide and I don't want to, yes.
>totally and completely selfish or do other people benefit from the life being lived?
Who's to say life will get better?
>Does the future self of the person have a high chance of benefiting?
Not really. Life isn't so fantastic.

>why would you stop them?
Because I want their existence in my life.
>it is absurd for you to 'allow' preventing a close persons suicide but not stopping a stranger
Why? What business is their affair to mine?

[Anonymous No.6381416]

>>6381387
>all suicidal people are exactly the same
the sad fact is, most people kill themselves for 'irrational' reasons, either they do not fully comprehend the finality of death, they do not reason the chain of events of their current situation, they exaggerate a small problem to a large one.

Of course some people have endless illnesses with no chance of reprieve or a very reasonable understanding of their chance for contentment but it seems this is the minority by far.

[Anonymous No.6381417]

>>6381402
>you must use the dictionary definition of a word always
good for you

now respond to my logic

[Anonymous No.6381420]

>>6381388
Not wanting to kill yourself because you don't want to die is not the same as being told you can't kill yourself because other people don't want you to die.

[Anonymous No.6381421]

>>6381417
>now respond to my logic
There is none because your juxtaposition failed.

[Anonymous No.6381427]

>>6381410
you are either not responding to my points or changing them and then not responding, it would be pointless for me to continue

[Anonymous No.6381431]

>>6381421
if that makes you feel better, ok

[Anonymous No.6381434]

>>6381416
>either they do not fully comprehend the finality of death
Literally everyone over the age of 5-ish who is not retarded (religiosity will do as well) does.
>they do not reason the chain of events of their current situation
Doesn't really matter to be honest.
>they exaggerate a small problem to a large one
Life itself is the largest problem because it contains all the smaller ones and makes the rise of new ones possible.

[Anonymous No.6381442]

>>6381434
try to understand me instead of trying to argue

[Anonymous No.6381453]

>>6381442
Then present your case with increased clarity.

[Anonymous No.6381485]

Suicide is justified by how smart you are. Dumb people killing themselves is ridiculous, but geniuses killing themselves is cool.

[Anonymous No.6381616]

>>6381306
how did you like Better to Have Never Been, if that's what you're referencing. I've been contemplating reading it, but don't know if it's worth my time.

most books are though, so it's probably just my being lazy I haven't done so.

[Anonymous No.6381634]

>>6381485
> a genius' suicide is cool
But so then what of that of DFW?

I lament his, but his was of depression.

You're just shitposting though so out, out.

[Anonymous No.6381662]

>>6381634
DFW wasn't a genius.

[Anonymous No.6381678]

>>6381416
there is no 'irrational' reason for suicide, and if there ever was to be one, you are certainly not the judge of why that reason should be deemed 'irrational'.

[Anonymous No.6381723]

>>6381453
it is clear enough, you lack the brain for the job apparently

[Anonymous No.6381731]

>>6381678
The concept of rationality/irrationality is subjective and relative, stop being so defensive.

[Anonymous No.6381867]

>>6381616
I was referring to an essay he wrote on suicide. I really liked Better Never to Have Been, and personally found his asymmetry pretty convincing, though I've always been somewhat pessimistically inclined. If you enjoy ethics, I'd go for it.

[Anonymous No.6382409]

>ctrl+f sisyphus
>0 results

Kill yourself, /lit/. Or have a cup of coffee.

[Anonymous No.6383442]

>>6381013
suicide is alright as long as you manage to get out of your commitments beforehand.

so it is best to commit the least in life, but there is no point in commitment anyway

[Anonymous No.6383741]

>>6382409
>ctrl+f Camus
I have no work to do here.

[Anonymous No.6383756]

>>6383442
How one leave all commitments of life? Should I call my mom and tell her "sup mom, I will kill the self so please stop loving me and shit because I have to leave any commitments"?

I know, family ties aren't "commitments" you agree, it's more like they're imposed. But that doesn't mean they're less of a commitment because of that.

Suicide shouldn't be seen as a decision, but more as the natural course of a person who has lost a notion of sense in his/her life. If you're confronted by that you could help said person or not, but there's no need responsability inherent to the human that obligues you to do it.
I feel like most people feel the need to help someone suicidal because they deny the fact that there's a posibility that life can become senseless at one point, so they seek by all means to help that person.

I we were truly respectful of the other person decisions and ideas then we wont stop someone from commiting suicide, but certanly we would feel with the responsability to at least hear their reasons. If that people sense is truly lost then, what else could you do?

[Anonymous No.6383827]

>>6382409

>we have to imagine sysiphus happy :^)


seriously fuck off with babby's first existentialism

[Anonymous No.6383829]

>>6383827
>missing the point

[Anonymous No.6383854]

>>6383829

>missing the point

>missing the point that the entire work is about rectifying the titular sysiphus and his condemnation to perform an endless pointless task (the progress through an absurd life) and search for meaning under such circumstances

>he is happy :^)

[Anonymous No.6383865]

>>6383854
>the essay is called "the myth of sysiphus"
>therefore it has to be about that
You should reread it.

[Anonymous No.6383869]

>>6383865

seriously?

[Anonymous No.6383871]

>>6383869
Sysiphus is just an example.

[Anonymous No.6383880]

>>6383871

seems to be the primary one at that

[Anonymous No.6383894]

>>6383880
That depends on the subject.

I mean yeah, he does "closes up" the essay with Sysiphus, but he could have used any other example (like Don Juan being in hell giving no fucks, or Ivan Karamazov living with less fucks either).

We could say he just started with the greeks... Wow, I didn't dimention it how based Camus was.

[Anonymous No.6383948]

>>6381388
>it is not logical to sustain life
On what grounds, Mr. Vulcan?

[Anonymous No.6383953]

>>6383894


okay, to bring this back on topic, camus defines the overarching notion of the absurd, which is viewed as inescapable, and examples in ways which an individual can mitigate the impact of living in such a condition, yet these are derived from individual/personal and thus subjective formulations of meaningfulness. While these can be useful on a personal basis they still exist within the realm of the absurd and are thus absurd themselves. Now for some individuals this is acceptable, or the meaningfulness existed for the individual before absurdity of existence was conceptualized, if it is at all, and thus could be said to be simply self delusion to escape the inherent meaninglessness that extends far further than any personal sense of meaning ever could. So yes one can choose to "give no fucks" or devote one's self to a pursuit of personal meaningfulness, this does not offer much for those who currently do not have and cannot find any meaningful pursuit that is not pervaded by absurdity or are prevented from uncovering one due to environmental factors.

So there are plenty of individuals that must fall into the category of unwilling to place blind faith in a predefined meaning, unable to derive any personal meaning that will acceptably mitigate the absurd, and find being sentient in such an absurd environment intolerable, and therefore have no reason not to commit suicide.

So if camus's argument boils down to "don't kill urself just roll with it" thats fucking ride the tiger tier and isn't that insightful.

[Anonymous No.6383964]

>>6383953
Well, yeah, but he makes a lot of historical citations and also mention some good realists authors.

It could be called "a brief history of not giving fucks".

[Anonymous No.6383978]

>>6381485
This tbh

[Anonymous No.6383986]

>>6381634
Medical reasons doesn't count.
It's only cool when the so called "genius" do it because he took the decision.

[Anonymous No.6384026]

>>6381152
>Every member of society invests a lot into the society, and society performs work on individuals. So while we're free to do as we want, we're not the only ones who can justify having stake in our own lives

As you lay there in excruciating agony, a nurse comes to change your catheter. You wince as the tube slides out of your penis and fresh one is forced back in again. She lifts your right buttock to see if you have soiled yourself yet, then informs you that your sponge bath is in one hour.

A young doctor enters the ward and picks up the chart of the foot of your bed. He scans the list, mutters the ailments to himself, "leukemia of the blood, osteoporosis, parkinsons's, rheumatoid arthritis, altzeimers. . . He adjusts the drip feeding the back of your hand.

In one last feat of bravery you try to speak, "Doctor," you rasp. Your vocal chords feeling like shattered glass against concrete, "Could I file for assisted suicide? I just can't take this pain anymore."

The doctor sneers at you. "You'll be dead in seventh months anyway, old man, just wait."

"But doctor..." you begin.

"But doctor nothing, you selfish cunt. You are still collecting a retirement plan, your hospital costs are in the tens of thousands of dollars, you medication costs alone could feed a village in Uganda. All of this money is circulating and inflating the economy, and you want to deprive society of this?"

You begin to cry and wish your life belonged to you.

[Anonymous No.6384048]

>>6384026
Is collective development more important than individual liberty?

[Anonymous No.6384059]

>>6384048
Which one ought to be more important is your own subjective choice, you could pick either. Which one is more important is socially forced upon you.

[Mugenchan !pGt6/pVDLk No.6384063]

>>6381013
Suicide by my point of view is a reroll on life
as to whether or not you already have dubs or trips, that depends on your current life
tho, just be wary when you reroll it could be pretty dang bad, or better
But, the purpose of life is to experience, you've been given a solid grip on reality and throwing that away should only result from a tremendous tribulation
also
>Stoicism

lately i've been encumbered by those dang melancholic thoughts about the futility of life, I always forsee that my life will get better and maybe I can travel and meet a girl, but I also forsee the degradation of it all. It's all quite hapless, having to bother myself over these things when one should live in the present

[Anonymous No.6384065]

>>6383978
Never read Mishima before but I want to. What is his most suicide-core book? Did he ever write something outlining his views on the merit or aesthetics of suicide?

[Anonymous No.6384145]

>>6381290
>No one asked to be born, no one needs to ask permission to exit.

Kinda like that guy at a party who wasn't invited, turns up anyway, and then leaves because no one cares as to whether he was even there in the first place

Human existence is depressing

[Anonymous No.6384162]

>>6381379
>selfish
>bad
spooky

Everyone is selfish insofar as their existence and experience of being is contingent on self-interest by our very nature as self-conscious beings. Desire approaches its realisation asymptomatically, one can only ever satisfy need, which is always based in self-interest.

[Anonymous No.6384925]

there is no justification to forbid suicide.

and any humanist State must provide a peaceful exit