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/lit/ - Literature

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6554070 No.6554070 [Reply] [Original]

What do you think of The Republic as a treatise on education, providing a layout for creating or becoming an ideal cultivated and ethical human?

>> No.6554076

>a treatise on education
Might as well write 'a death camp'. Education is inhuman.

>> No.6554368

>>6554076
Why's that?

>> No.6554403
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6554403

>>6554076

>> No.6554459

>>6554070
I think the idea of a select group of "elite" individuals educating the youth of a state in such a way as to maximize their "ethical behavior" within the city is one of the most nauseatingly totalitarian notions ever conceived.

I do however admire Plato's gusto at actually talking specifics about his ideals and methods rather than succumbing to the vagaries common amongst many philosophers.

>> No.6554463

I'm just here for the metaphysics, you giant girl

>> No.6556089

>>6554076
>One of the most distinctly human things ever
>Inhuman
Did you fail school or something?

>> No.6556133

>>6554076
Oh look, it's >>6554066. How's faggotry treating you?
Do you seriously think that education takes away a person's ability to perceive qualia? Have you actually read the Republic? Do you understand what Plato and the Greeks understood 'education' to be?

>> No.6556137

It does not achieve Wu Wei.

>> No.6556141

>>6556137
Wu Wei does not attain knowledge of the Good.

>> No.6556147

>>6556141

So what?

>> No.6556148

I like the idea behind the metaphor. I don't think the beautiful soul is the best soul to aim for, though. I'm more of a doctrine of the mean guy, but I think Plato was, too since it's so obvious.

>> No.6556158

>>6556147
So it isn't the best ethic.

>> No.6556165

>>6556158

That's far from certain.

>> No.6556172

>>6556165
>certainty
Why does an advocate of wu wei care about this?

>> No.6556207

>>6556172

I don't.

>> No.6556213

>>6556207
Then do you base your support of it on something far from certainty?

>> No.6556271

>>6554070

As a treatise on how to cultivate an ideal person, it's not very good. It makes strong arguments for the need for justice because it helps a man function in the world and treat himself rightly. However, it provides no real format for justice other than "incremental training across a variety of subjects, followed by years of political apprenticeship."

>> No.6556280

>>6556271
Don't forget bringing the appetitive and spiritual parts of the soul into harmony with the mind and each other!

>> No.6556287

>>6556141
>>6556147
>>6556158
>>6556165
>>6556172
>>6556207
>>6556213
East v. West and guess who won?
Plato > Kongzi
Aristotle > Laozi
Jesus > Buddha

>> No.6556303

>>6556287
you like the west, good for you

too bad that the east speaks to more people

>> No.6556315

>>6556303
The East has a lot going for it. The divide is ultimately artificial, anyway, and besides, none of those people are from the Western hemisphere.

>> No.6556317

>>6556148
Unfortunately, the 'mean soul' goes to hell, in a recursive rebirth way. The good energy emanates from 'the good' and is reborn in higher degrees of understanding and perception

>> No.6556363

>>6554070
It's a better reading than the usual "IT'S A POLITICAL TREATISE ON PLATO'S IDEAL GOVERNMENT", but it still doesn't quite get at certain aporetic elements.

>> No.6556393

>>6556317
According to Plato or according to a Neoplatonist? I'd check my copy of the Republic but I lent it to a friend.

>> No.6556437

really quite terrible considering that the basis of it depends on his metaphysics which are equally as terrible as his analogical switch from chefs to ruling elite

>> No.6556452

>>6556393
Yes according to The Republic. It was basically a theological stance on political philosophy.

>> No.6557092

>>6556452
Could you explain this more? Or point to the passages in the Republic you're referring to?

(I take it that the "soul going to hell" bit is from the Myth of Er passage, but I'm more curious about what you mean by the good energy emanating from 'The Good' and being reborn in higher degrees of understanding and perception. Did you mean that the good soul is reborn in this way, or that the good energy is, or what?)

>> No.6557120

>>6556452
Yeah, but I mean, isn't that true of most souls in most lives? The average soul is on Earth for 10,000 years, according to Plato, IIRC, and the exceptions, philosophers, are here for about 3,000. There's not much in book X I can think of that really resembles hell, aside from a place where bad souls pay off their crimes. Also like >>6557092 said I'm not sure what you mean about siphoning off Good energy. It sounds like Neoplatonism.

>> No.6557706

Thinking of reading either the Republic or the Brother Karamazov. Which one would you recommend? Didn't think this question warranted its own thread. Thank you.

>> No.6557738

>>6557706

They're both excellent, but it might depend on what you're looking for. The Republic rewards re-readings and careful revisions of accounts f what you think the dialogue is about (it initially looks like a work on the perfect state; suddenly it seems to be about liberal education; further it looks like a work that grounds metaphysical concerns in political ones, and vice-versa; finally, it looks fundamentally skeptical of everything).

Brothers Karamazov is a deep book as well, and it *does* reward re-readings, but it's nowhere near the same in substance and depth (which is not to say that it isn't a deep book).

>> No.6557779

>>6557738
Would you recommend starting with Brother Karamazov if I have never read Dostoevsky or should I start with C&P?

>> No.6557799

>>6557779
you can start with C&P

>> No.6557821

>>6557779
Either, they're both excellent, and they don't really require familiarity with the other.

>> No.6557867

>>6557799
>>6557821
thank ya

>> No.6558364

>>6556452
How is it a theological stance on political philosophy? Having a hard time following you, anon.

>> No.6558391

>>6558364
>He doesn't realize that 'metaphysics' is just a name philosophers used after Aristotle unintentionally invented it
>He doesn't realize that this subject is the one where theology's paradigm shifts happen because of the freer play of concepts of allows, in relation to what dogmatic, systematic, and negative theology allow
>He doesn't realize that every ideology justifies itself metaphysically in the same way that science justifies itself, and that modernity's choice to neglect metaphysics doesn't change the fact that even liberalism has ontological underpinnings
>He doesn't realize the innate connection between metaphysics and government
Read more Hegel

>> No.6558439

>>6558391
I was asking about the specific neoplatonic-sounding reading of the book under discussion; I'm plenty familiar with Hegel, thank you. :^P

>> No.6558442

>>6558439
Oh. Well, I'm not that poster so I don't know what he was talking about if it wasn't that.

>> No.6558816

>>6554459
why is "elite" in quotation marks if that wasn't the word used?

>> No.6558879

>>6558816
MUH PHILOSOPHER KINGS

>> No.6558954

>>6558816

It's interesting that so many people come away from the Republic with that view, ignoring what Plato wants us to question and pay attention to, like how Socrates would still be an outcast in the city in speech, and that the emphasis on Justice over anything else means that there can't be room for philosophical eros.

>> No.6558964

>>6558879
>philosopher writes a book on what should be
>apparently philosophers need to be treated like royalty

The comedy of such is breathtaking

>> No.6558989

>>6554070
the republic sucks

>> No.6559000

>>6558989
wow much critique many profound

>> No.6559008

>>6558989
I've been moved to change my mind about Plato completely.

From now on, I'll read only REAL geniuses.

Like Rawls or Popper, or somesuch faggots.

>> No.6559022

>>6554070
Plato was a fascist the republic is merely a fascist city model founded on exclusion and discrimination ^^
Plato #reckt happy?

>> No.6559028

>question everything
>faggot teenage pimplefaced student writes book about how he would form a coup and fuck up athens with his crappy system of government

the basic premise of the "philosopher king" argument is that it treats every citizen of athens, who could learn all the knowledge in the world at that point in a few months, as though they're all deadshits in need of some serious guidance by a learned master.

don't forget that wisdom means relationship with the gods. it is a pure nonsense idea.

>> No.6559034

>>6559022
Brilliant satire of Popperian and analytic Plato scholarship.

>> No.6559047

>>6559028

Firstly: No (feel free to try to learning all of Greek mathematics and hetoric in a few months, and come back to tell us how easy it was).

Secondly: Still no (the Athenian democracy, while critiqued, is given a large compliment during the democratic soul discussion when Socrates notes that a democracy is the only regime that would allow for the conversation they're having).

Thirdly: Goddamnit, once again, fucking no (Wisdom is wisdom of the Whole, that is, the comprehensive articulation of the particulars, and/or wisdom of self).

>> No.6559063
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6559063

Use Emile instead, faggots.

>> No.6559349

>>6559063
Or you could do what Allan Bloom does and suggests and use both. :P