[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/lit/ - Literature

View post   
File: 22 KB, 218x346, brothers_karamazov.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6662464 No.6662464 [Reply] [Original]

Just finished The Brothers Karamazov after hearing so much about it (especially from this board).

It had interesting bits, one brilliant chapter (The Great Inquisitor) and very well shaped characters, but it would have benefitted from a generous editing. Too long and often with pretty clumsy prose.

What did you think about it?
Overall I'd give it a 7/10, which is lower than I expected. I've even heard people from here claim that this book made them into the person they are today. Did I miss some great pearl of wisdom?

>> No.6662472

>>6662464
yes you're a pleb

>> No.6662478

>>6662472
Well then explain what I missed.

>> No.6662595

>>6662472
Pretentious twat: the post.

>> No.6662599

I kind of agree OP. Although I definitely think it had more good and worthwhile bits than long and boring ones.

Personally, I found that Crime and Punishment and The Idiot affected me a lot more than Brothers Karamazov.

>> No.6662601

>>6662599
Raskolnikov is a pussy.
Fite me.

>> No.6662603

>>6662464
>pretty clumsy prose.
did you even read it in russian?

>> No.6662607

>>6662603
Yes.

Prove I didn't.

Cunt.

>> No.6662609

>>6662603
Dosto wrote pretty bad prose. There's a limit to the blame you can pin on a translator. His prose is just awful, because he wasn't interested in style but only in his Big Themes.

Tolstoj is also translated but his prose is incredibly more polished.

>> No.6662614

>>6662607
davai skazhi togda po-russki kak tebe kniga.

>> No.6662628

>>6662614
...da.

>> No.6662633

>>6662601
>Raskolnikov is a pussy

Well, yeah. That's kind of the point.

>> No.6662660

>>6662609
He didn't have bad prose, it's pretty pleb to think so. It wasn't stylized, but it's solid prose that does the job.

>> No.6662670

>>6662660
>it's solid prose
No.
This isn't even a matter of opinion, so we're not discussing this.

>> No.6662686

>>6662464
I liked it when they brought the doge back, it made me cry good tears, actually the story about that particular kid with the doge in general. The rest was 2d to me and alyucha was nothing but a rhetorical figure, so all in all not very fun characters reading it the way I wanted it to.

The female hysteria was 7/10 pretty plocho considering this is Dostos forte but the nervous breakdown of that Katerina? in court was rad as fuck.

In general it helped me cope with many uncomfortable facts that I couldn't just dismiss as spooks for the time being but apart from that, nah didn't make much of anything of me. Good thing I found the milk man two years later courtesy of you guys. That guy did some work on me lol

To the Russian (presumably) itt: How much truth is there to Dostos usage of edgy obscure dialect? Some Slav girl told me this.

>> No.6662713

>>6662670
His prose is fine, grandiose, calculated with extremely well flowing dialogue, in that department he is second to none.

>> No.6662730

>>6662464
What's with people and The Grand Inquisitor? It's the one chapter that everyone praises, but there's nothing particularly profound about it. The highlight of the novel for me were the chapters on Alyosha and the children.

>> No.6662736

>>6662686
It is true that he used a lot of lingual characterisation.

>> No.6662739

>>6662601
I see you've also read the book.
>>6662599
>affected
EFFECTED

>> No.6662767

>>6662730
It was lost on me back when I read it. There is nothing profound about opinion of the people either. Just like the critics itt, probably Nabokov fanboys. I don't have to take this seriously just because my limbic system is telling me so, the coward.

Russians make yourselve s known please if you're lurking. zdes voprosy

>> No.6662779

>>6662739
>EFFECTED

This is the part where I say that English is my second language to hide my embarrassment and stupidity.

>> No.6662799

>>6662739
>>affected
>EFFECTED
Non-native here but C&P at least has the potential to affect, rather than just effect, doesn't it?

>> No.6662802

I'm still in the middle of it and so far I think it's wonderful. It is pretty fucking long, that's for sure, but it has quality, considering Dostoyevsky wrote it for the papers and didn't have infinite amout of time to do some serious polishing.

>> No.6662804

>>6662779
Don't worry anon, most of the affect/effect abusers are native English speakers.

>> No.6662848

>>6662804
Explain yourself please

>Personally, I found that Crime and Punishment and The Idiot affected me a lot more than Brothers Karamazov.

>> No.6662900

I agree OP. Bros Karamazov are meme here on /lit/ (and probably even IRL) - there's interesting parts of course (the chapter you mentioned, Smerdyakov's attacks on the christian logic), but overall I don't think it's all that great - there's a lot of much more captivating/enlightening books. Even Idiot's better in my book - that one's atleast easier to read, and it has a few proto-existentialist themes in it.

People will probably call me out on being a pleb, but I've yet to hear some truly extraordinary thought someone took from Brothers Karamazov.

>> No.6662908

>>6662900
probably because you don't read secondary literature beyond the opinions of the dilletantes that are bursting from the seams of this shitplace

>> No.6662918

>>6662601
He's omega tier. Definitely has something wrong with his temple.

>> No.6662919

>>6662908
An enlightening book which needs a secondary literature to be understood/experienced is not an enlightening book in my opinion.

>> No.6662934

>>6662919
stop having opinions

>> No.6662944

>>6662614
normas voobshe zashla)

>> No.6662947

>>6662934
Thank you for your sound advice, zen master.

>> No.6663417

>>6662595
>Pretentious twat: the post.

yes you're a redditor

>> No.6663484

>>6662464
>very well shaped characters, but it would have benefitted from a generous editing. Too long and often with pretty clumsy prose.

That's Dosto in a nutshell IMO, OP.

>> No.6663624

>>6662464
100% agreed

>> No.6663645

>>6662464
Mostly agreed.
Put it 8/10 myself.

>> No.6663647

Which translation of Brothers K is best for american reader?

I read Garnett for C&P and a lot of the intensity and emotion fell flat for me

>> No.6663651

>>6662464
sequel when?

>> No.6663710

>>6662464
A lot of writers from this time-period actually wrote books that were published in newspapers, and were paid by the word, so that's part of why you have lots of lengthy and highly unnecessary passages.

>> No.6663730

>>6662464
I thought the best chapter was Rebellion. Not from the sadness of the stories themselves, but from the realization about what the stories really mean

>> No.6663732

>>6662464
Zossima's monologue emphasizing the necessity of brotherly love was the most significant chapter for me; I came to understand the value of prayer in that chapter. The Grand Inquisitor admirable but overrated when compared with other parts of the book. Ivan's conversation with the devil solidified my love for Dostoevsky; Smerdyakov was the perfect antagonist; the vacillation in Alyosha was portrayed in a manner I consider genius. The book remains the best I have read and the predilection for Russians that was conceived upon reading it a few years ago still remains.

>>6662686
What is the milk man?

>> No.6663811

>>6662713
I agree. His prose is calculated -- most of the time. When it isn't, it quickly turns to a weaker prose that goes nowhere.

>> No.6663834

>>6663732
Yeah, religious nutjobs love This book.

>> No.6665102

>>6663732
>>6662686
>the milk man

Maybe it's this?
>http://www.amazon.com/The-Milkman-A-Freeworld-Novel/dp/1770530606

>> No.6665319

>>6662900
I just finished The Idiot and while it was extraordinarily good I felt that it suffered from inconsistencies in the pacing/plot development. The period between Filippovna and Rogozhin being important characters was too long and by the time they were brought back into the fold there were only about 30 pages left or so. I'm about to start reading Brothers and I'm actually surprised at the reactions to it ITT as all I've ever heard is that it's one of the ebst books ever written not only from a philosophical standpoint, but also from a general story standpoint.

>> No.6665370

>>6665319
For a modern reader, Dosto can be way too verbose and the action too little like an action movie. We're used to faster and flashier stuff, both in movies and books.

A modern editor would undoubtedly reject Brothers Karamazov or at least force Dosto to cut 60% of it.

>> No.6665407

>>6665370
Oh I see, so on /lit/ is it more or less one of those books that people read quthrough quickly solely to say they read it? A shame if that's the case, but I wouldn't expect much more from 4chan.

>> No.6665486

>>6665407
In a lot of cases I'm afraid so.

Personally, I was curious of the reasons why it's considered one of the best books ever written not just by /lit/ but by the majority of the literary world.

>> No.6665607

>>6663732
Was Smedryakov really an antagonist though?

>> No.6665630

>>6665607
The true villain was the father.

>> No.6665698

>>6665370
Disagree completely... Crime and Punishment is a true page turner. His characters are often running around, shouting, drunk, and overly dramatic. To me, reading Dosty feels like watching certain kinds of anime (C&P analog: Death Note, for utilitarian/guilt themes)... whereas Tolstoy's prose I would liken to the experience of watching an old film (interestingly, there's a great Kurosawa adaptation of Cмepть Ивaнa Ильичa that I'd highly recommend, "Ikiru")

That's not to say that I prefer one or the other in all cases; Dosty and Toasty are both the best.

>> No.6665712

>>6665630

I'm not saying that. But Smedryakov was a very bright man facing the prospect of living in poverty his entire life, serving the awful father who disowned him. Even his name - 'Smedryakov' ('stinker') is pretty much an insult.

He was a sociopath, alright, but to paint him as villain is in my opinion a little unjustified. His enviroment prohibited him from ever realising his dreams - he wanted to go to France, to learn, to become someone. So he took the only way out - the difficult and brutal one. I don't want to justify the murder he committed, but he wasn't a remorseless man. The fact that he later committed suicide, even though rationally he had no reason to, only goes to show that he was after all a human being, albeit a very damaged one.

>> No.6665749

>>6665486
It's been a while since I read it, but the trial scene still stands out vividly in my memory. Dosty's lessons on compassion and the human element of justice, hard earned from his personal stint in Siberia, still haven't been appreciated by the modern American police state.

I think it's lauded partly because Bros K does a great job of bringing the ideas from all his previous books together. Elements that first made their appearance in his previous stories show up again, and on a much grander scale, an arguably more meaningful arena when it comes to capturing the human condition.

>> No.6667509

>>6662900
>prefers a book over another because it is easier to read
Stop posting here please

>> No.6667570
File: 48 KB, 278x399, ziggurat.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6667570

One of the many reasons I found this novel compelling was that it was vaguely unsettling. Hard to describe this effect, but it seemed like all the characters were surrounded by demons egging them on in their frenzied passions and...yeah. It created an atmosphere of supernatural evil at times, which I can find in all this guy's works. I keep coming back to Ivan's conversation later on in the book

>> No.6667582

>>6665698
>To me, reading Dosty feels like watching certain kinds of anime

I mean this in the most constructive way possible: just end it. No reason to live beyond this point.

>> No.6667591

I read the Garnett translation many years ago and now I'm looking for one that's actually good. Which one is the best?

>> No.6667614

>>6667591
Garnett.

>> No.6667622

>>6662464
I wonder if it's the translation or the difficulty I face adjusting to the psychological novel, but I find Dostoyevsky's frequent use of dialogue overwhelming and unnatural at times. Is this because it's part of the tradition of the psychological novel?

>> No.6667629

>>6665698
That's interesting. Something about Tolstoy's characters make me imagine them as being cute anime girls.

>> No.6668234

>>6665698
>Disagree completely... Crime and Punishment is a true page turner. His characters are often running around, shouting, drunk, and overly dramatic.
And here I was in tears when the mother pulled the circus stunt in a fit of hysteria.

You don't happen to have Russian friends or anything? I never felt for a moment that anything was drawn out in that book, but it's a possibility that I read an abridged version. In German btw.

>>6665102
>>6663732
Milk man is Stirner guys. I doubt I can ever go back to my collection of Dosto now. How can he spook me like he used to? (And let me tell you I loved it)


>>6667570
>One of the many reasons I found this novel compelling was that it was vaguely unsettling.
My experience with Dosto in one sentence.

Now that I think of it maybe he had more of an effect on me than I thought.

>> No.6668269

>>6662739
Wait. What the fuck? He meant 'affected'. How would 'effected' make any sense in that context?

Do you even English?

>> No.6668280

Dimitri's trial (especially the opening and the ending speeches by prosecution and defense) and Zosima's retrospection about his youth and his brother making peace with his surroundings before his death were definately one of finest, emotionally stunning pieces of literature I've ever read.

I can agree that Dostoyevsky's prose isn't best at times, but these several chapters are completly redeeming qualities. That being said I still think that "Demons" are a close second. Engineer Kirilov's dispute with Shatov about nihilism is another jewel in my memory.