/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.6999021]

Everyone talks about the Greeks on this board but most often it's without an accompanying discussion.

Favorite authors/works? Illiad vs Odyssey?

[Anonymous No.6999026]

Commence with the Chinese

[Anonymous No.6999724]

Prepare with the Postmodernists.

[Anonymous No.6999727]

Begin with the Butt

[Anonymous No.6999728]

Mollify with the Modernists.

[Anonymous No.6999732]

Protagoras best

[Anonymous No.6999733]

>>6999732
>>6999728
>>6999727
>>6999724
>>6999026

This would work great a short poem.

[Anonymous No.6999736]

Embark with the Egyptians.

[Anonymous No.6999740]

>>6999736

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » No.6999766]

>>6999740
That's not "shitposting"
Should be "Ancient Egyptian docking procedures" or something

[Anonymous No.6999779]

>>6999021
All of this is just opinions:

Iliad is more powerful with a better cast of characters, Odyssey is more fun/more of an adventure, and makes for a better story, especially when considering that Iliad does not cover (a) the start of the Trojan war, i.e., the whole Helen of Troy shitshow, or (b) the conclusion of the war: Achilles' death, the Trojan Horse, etc.

Herodotus is cool as shit, but jesus christ a lot of the book is boring (tell me more about Scythian river formations pls Herodotus). Had loads of fun reading about Thermopylae; it was cool seeing how surprisingly accurate "300" was.

Thucydides is a bit more academic: Less fun, really no myths/legends like Herodotus, but more interesting speeches and far better as "history" with his search for evidence and pursuit of differing perspectives. Way more political than Herodotus.

Xenophon's Hellenika (picks up where Thucydides left off) is fun, but more of a memoir than a history: Obvious bias, very little fact-finding or desire to really understand everyone's side of the story. Cool setup for Philip of Macedon/Alexander the Great. The big takeaway is that Greek was a shitshow after the Peloponnesian war.

Xenophon's Anabasis reads a bit easier than Hellenika, because Xenophon's tendency to mush up details is a lot more conducive to a semi-autobiographical story (Anabasis) than it is history (Hellenika), and he's present for the whole story this time, rather than just bits and pieces like in Hellenika. And you start getting glimpses of Socratic-style arguments when he has to incessantly defend himself from his dumb-shit army that's always blaming him for someone else's fuck ups.

The annoying part is that the Greeks didn't really know how to end their histories. Herodotus kind of trails off after the Persians lose at Platea, Thucydides stops writing BEFORE THE FUCKING WAR ENDS, Xenophon's Anabasis ends when he just kind of leaves the army, and Hellenika literally ends with Xenophon saying, "In fact, there was even more uncertainty and confusion in Greece after the battle than there had been previously. Let this, then, be the end of my narrative. Someone else, perhaps, will deal with what happened later."

And of course the epic poems are just pieces of the larger epic cycle, which we don't have, so we're just kind of stuck with half finished or fragmented versions of everything. Still cool as shit, though.

[Calypso !DabWKAVCOE No.6999805]

I personally liked the Odyssey more. it felt like more of an adventure and had a more satisfying ending.

Medea is the best play after Oedipus Rex. I just love her story. What are your favorite tragedies?

[Anonymous No.6999824]

>>6999805
I'm >>6999779 and am on the cusp of reaching Greek drama (about to start Xenophon's Cyropaedia, then Walker's lectures on the Hellenica Oxyrhynchia, shouldn't take more than a week together). I picked up all of Aeschylus already, and am considering running through all of the plays we still have (With Aeschylus, Sophocles, Aristophanes, Euripides, I think it's like 48 total plays).

But I'm not sure. Are there any that just aren't great/worth the time? At the very least, can you recommend your favorite translations? I've heard that Penguin can be real shit, but I've found it to be at least hit or miss, with some great translations in the mix (Buss for Monte Cristo, Rutherford for Quixote, Pevear for Anna Karenina), so I don't know if I should trust it for the Greeks. What do you think?

[Anonymous No.6999843]

Read Xenophon

[Anonymous No.6999854]

>>6999805
Ajax is my favorite of the bunch, though oedipus rex is high up there too.

[Anonymous No.6999870]

>>6999854
>spelling it "Ajax" instead of the original and far more sonorous "Aias"

(growling)

[Anonymous No.6999872]

Empedocles and Pythagoras > Jesus and Moses

[Calypso !DabWKAVCOE No.6999899]

>>6999824
I haven't read 48 plays but every one so far has been enjoyable. There are some cliches that get overused but most of the great playwrights will have their own twists that make them worth reading.

I don't know too much about translations. I mostly read copies from Oxford Worlds classics just taking the risk with whoever they choose.

[Anonymous No.6999929]

>>6999899
Cool, thanks very much! How many plays have you read so far? Any comedies?

[Anonymous No.6999972]

>>6999870
>spelling it "Aias" instead of the original "Αἴϝας"

[Calypso !DabWKAVCOE No.6999999]

>>6999929
2 from Aeschylus, 5 from Sophocles,7 from Euripides

I haven't read any comedies yet but I probably will pick up some Aristophanes when I can. It will be fun to read something that doesn't end in anything horrible for a change.

[Anonymous No.7000025]

>>6999999

Nice

[Calypso !DabWKAVCOE No.7000037]

>>6999972
thats still modern greek, it would have looked like that but capitalized

[Anonymous No.7000041]

>>6999999

[Calypso !DabWKAVCOE No.7000049]

>>6999972
there is no original spelling, it was oral poetry from before the Greek alphabet was even around.

[Anonymous No.7000051]

>>6999999

[Anonymous No.7000055]

>>6999972
>spelling it "Αἴϝας" instead of the original "ΑΙϜΑΣ"

[Anonymous No.7000064]

>>7000049
Homer was 8th century BC, Linear B was used to write Greek from the 13th century BC, Phoenician alphabet was 12th century BC or earlier and started being used to write Greek in the early 8th century BC, becoming the "Greek alphabet".

[Anonymous No.7000066]

>>7000064
Sorry, 13th century should be 15th to 13th

[Anonymous No.7000067]

>>6999779
Great summary & fully agree. The tragedies are also awesome, especially Agamemnon which is incredible. I love the idea that it's the House of Atreides itself which is cursed & doomed. The language is fantastic, full of slaughter & butchery. Francis Bacon (the painter) spoke about its influence on his work.

[Calypso !DabWKAVCOE No.7000092]

>>7000064
The stories and that are likely from before the 8th century. When was Homer first written down anyway?

[Anonymous No.7000132]

>>6999999
Off by one kenobe.

[Anonymous No.7000136]

>>6999740
>cucked by the Kush

[Anonymous No.7000164]

>>6999740
>No, Ray Jay, 'Twas I. Hit it first.

[Anonymous No.7000179]

>>6999021
Really like the tragedies. Hippolytus and Antigone are my favourites so far. Hippolytus for me just epitomizes what Greek tragedy is all about. Everyone gets ruined, but nobody is to blame.

Still have to start the Iliad, it's been sitting on my shelf for at least a year now, I think.

[Anonymous No.7000266]

I'd also recommend Edith Hamilton's Mythology as a great supplement- very readable and really gives a good overview of the subject. I'm already quite far 'through the Greeks', but her book is highlighting new areas I'd overlooked (Homeric Hymns in my case, as well as checking out some more on the Elysium Mysteries).

[Anonymous No.7000287]

>Illiad vs Odyssey

Homer was an overrated shit and this was acknowledged millennia ago.

Aristotle is pretty much the only guy you'll ever need to read, Greek or otherwise.

[Anonymous No.7000292]

>>7000287
The Edge is strong with this one.

[Anonymous No.7000293]

>>7000287
This is simply not true

[Anonymous No.7000295]

>>7000292
>>7000293
>"My dear Homer, if you are not third removed from the truth about virtue, and are not the sort of craftsman of an image, which is what we defined an imitator to be, but if you are even in second place and capable of knowing what practices make people better or worse in private or in public life, tell us which cities are better governed because of you, as the Lacedaemonians are because of Lycurgus, and as many other - great and small - are because of many other men. What city gives you credit for having proved to be a good lawgiver who benefited it? Italy and Sicily give it to Charondas, and we give it to Solon. Who gives it to you?"
>Are we to conclude then that all poets, beginning with Homer, imitate images of virtue and of all the other things they write about, and have no grasp of the truth?

[Anonymous No.7000300]

>>7000295

[Anonymous No.7000302]

>>7000295
Plato was a pleb.

[Anonymous No.7000637]

>Liking Greek Fucboi's.

[Anonymous No.7000649]

what are the best translations for the Iliad and the Odyssey?

[Anonymous No.7000904]

>>6999999
What a terrible get, hopefully this was better.
>>7000000

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » No.7000961]

>>6999999
Lysistrata is what I started with. Very cute.
>>7000092
Probably since the beginning. Writing of some kind was around but not widely used

>>7000649
Introductory: Fagles or Lombardo
Highly praised: Lattimore
Hexameter in English: Merrill
Ancient meme: Pope

Read some samples online

>>7000904
It was not >>/lit/thread/S7000000

[Anonymous No.7001124]

>>6999779
>Odyssey is more fun/more of an adventure, and makes for a better story, especially when considering that Iliad does not cover (a) the start of the Trojan war, i.e., the whole Helen of Troy shitshow, or (b) the conclusion of the war: Achilles' death, the Trojan Horse, etc.

No, you fucking idiot. The Iliad is one of the most perfectly plotted stories in literature. The fact that plebs think the poem will include the Trojan Horse (that's the Aeneid) is hardly Homer's fault, the theme of the Iliad is the wrath of Achilles. Aristotle says in his Poetics that The Iliad is the supreme example of the perfectly plotted epic.

[Anonymous No.7001128]

>>7001124
I mean, do you not get your shit in a twist about the Odyssey starting in media res as well? Surely you should knock off points for it not covering Odysseus' departure from Troy and the reason for Poseidon's anger if you're being fair?