https://areomagazine.com/2017/03/27/how-french-intellectuals-ruined-the-west-postmodernism-and-its-impact-explained/

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Anonymous Mon Mar 27 19:47:10 2017 No.9302065 [Reply] [Original]

https://areomagazine.com/2017/03/27/how-french-intellectuals-ruined-the-west-postmodernism-and-its-impact-explained/

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 19:48:47 2017 No.9302074 >>9302065 Did you like the article?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 19:49:54 2017 No.9302080 I swear the right are more obsessed by marx, postmodernism, post-structuralism and general faggotry than anyone of a left wing disposition.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 19:53:30 2017 No.9302099 File: 482 KB, 1920x1080, 1458868790409.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >yet another ill-informed, cookie-cutter jeremiad on the supposed dangers of this broad, diverse, and undefined 'movement' of thought

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 19:56:54 2017 No.9302113 Postmodernists are today what atheists were in the 18th century

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 19:58:11 2017 No.9302117 >>9302080 This. It's funny to see /pol/ mindlessly posting meme infographs about cultural marxism and Frankfurt School, yet if you ask them if they have read Adorno or Horkheimer they'll just say "who the fuck is him?".

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 20:03:07 2017 No.9302137
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>Fifteen years ago, when I found that almost the only other American academics who were reading the Hegel-Nietzsche-Heidegger-Derrida sequence were people who taught literature rather than philosophy, I optimistically assumed that this European cultural tradition would now, at last, be represented in American universities, to everyone's benefit. I foresaw a happy and harmonious division of labor between philosophy departments (which would stay analytic, and continue to neglect both the history of philosophy and Continental philosophy) and other departments (which would take up the resulting curricular slack). That was one of the reasons I switched jobs, moving from the Princeton philosophy department to a nondepartmental job at the University of Virginia (a university that has distinguished departments of literature, and that I thought might be filled with students who would want to learn about the Hegel-Derrida sequence).

>I did not foresee what has actually happened: that the popularity of philosophy (under the sobriquet 'theory') in our literature departments was merely a transitional stage on the way to the development of what we in America are coming to call "the Academic Left." This new sort of 'left' has been called, by Harold Bloom, "the School of Resentment," and the name fits. Its members are typically no more interested in the romance of the Nietzsche-to-Derrida tradition than in that of the Shakespeare-Milton-Wordsworth tradition or the Jefferson-Jackson-Teddy Roosevelt-John F. Kennedy tradition. They prefer resentment to romance. They view themselves as 'subverting' such things as "the humanist subject" or "Western technocentrism" or "masculist binary oppositions." They have convinced themselves that by chanting various Derridean or Foucauldian slogans they are fighting for human freedom. They see the study of literature and philosophy simply as a means to political ends.

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 20:04:10 2017 No.9302143

>>9302137
>The political uselessness, relative illiteracy, and tiresomely self-congratulatory enthusiasm of this new Academic Left, together with its continual invocation of the names of Derrida and Foucault, have conspired to give these latter thinkers a bad name in the United States. This complicates my own situation, since I have to keep insisting that my admiration for these two men does not extend to an admiration for their disciples, the resentful specialists in subversion. Nevertheless, philosophical colleagues who have remained resolutely analytic often say to me: "See what you've done! You helped smooth the way for these creeps! Aren't you ashamed of yourself?"

>I am, I must admit, chastened. But I am not ashamed. I can only repeat once again: Habent sua fata libelli. One cannot judge an author or a book by what a particular set of readers do with it. That would be like judging Pasteur by the development of germ warfare, or Aristotle by the Inquisition. There are other things to do with Foucault and Derrida than are currently being done with them by the School of Resentment, just as there are other things to be done with Nietzsche than to use him as the Nazis used him. There is no need to solemnly expel Derrida and Foucault from a temple labelled 'philosophy' in order to show one's dislike for the uses to which their work has been put by others. The question of whether they are 'really' philosophers is, for all the reasons I have offered above, without interest. The question of whether they provide a 'model' for philosophy should be answered by saying: of course they do, and so do Plato, Hobbes, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Wittgenstein, and Davidson. There are as many models for participation in the conversation that Plato began as there are past participants. But there is no way to simplify one’s life and one’s philosophical activity by ascertaining, in advance of such participation, who the best models are.

Stop blaming Foucault and Derrida you fucks

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 20:06:06 2017 No.9302155 Is this written by Chomsky?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 20:12:14 2017 No.9302183 >>9302080 The triggered, angry responses threads like these often get suggest otherwise.

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 20:13:50 2017 No.9302191

>tfw thought the Frankfurt school, postmodernists and post-structuralists were gonna be these sinister genius villains enacting grand social engineering schemes across the entire of Western civilisation from behind a hidden veil
>just a bunch of autistic homosexuals writing about jazz

>>9302155
KEK

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 20:15:37 2017 No.9302202 File: 19 KB, 586x293, 12285845_arte-menzogna-verit-theodor-adorno-3.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9302191 FUCK JAZZ

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 20:20:45 2017 No.9302225 >>9302080 If they were smarter they would realize post-modernism could very useful to their criticism of liberal progressivist triumphalism.

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 20:21:34 2017 No.9302229

>>9302065
I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people are too stupid to understand Foucault, Derrida, Lyotard, etc.

I am a graduate student in physics and I cannot understand that shit, and I was too lazy to try very hard at it because of the writing style. The idea that somehow a bunch of French philosophers managed to destroy civilization by writing texts that almost no one understands seems highly questionable.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 20:40:52 2017 No.9302301 >>9302080 It helps to encourage anti-intellectualism by making academic figures seem hostile towards them. Seems to be working pretty well to me.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 20:44:12 2017 No.9302309 >>9302065 >Postmodernism, most simply, is [a]... movement... Wrong already.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 20:50:44 2017 No.9302338 >>9302143 Would those people continue to act the same way and justify their actions without them? If not, then those two share some of the blame.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 20:53:58 2017 No.9302357 >>9302183 you're not very intelligent.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 20:55:46 2017 No.9302364 >>9302357 holy... you sure showed him!

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 20:56:57 2017 No.9302368 >>9302357 You seem really smart :)

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 21:00:18 2017 No.9302387 >>9302357 I've gotten a few angry responses when saying bad things about these guys. It's probably because the time and effort it takes to meaningfully engage with them requires at least some passion.

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 21:01:34 2017 No.9302393

>>9302338

>syllogism whose premise is non-existent

there is no empirically or theoretically determined world in which derrida did not exist. so any objections raised on the grounds of his not existing are equally non-existant. to reduce the American response to French post-structuralism to the empirical lives of a handful of thinkers totally bastardizes and ignores the objective social conditions that produced those thinkers, and the difference in conditions that facilitated certain responses in the united states.

to meet your "argument" half-way, one can say that had derrida, foucualt, and lyotard, for example, not been born, someone would have had to invent them. the possibility of their thinking was laid down through the globalization of post-keynesian capitalism, increasing imperialism on the part of the major metropoles (viz. in vietnam, but in the middle east too), and popular reaction to these state movements in europe and the us, a series of conjunctures that unfolded across the 1960s. when these conjunctures were met by the post-existentialist hegelian marxism of the french academy, combined with increasing enthusiasm for nietzsche and disillusionment with the USSR as a potential leader of global emancipation, the result was post-structuralism. again, the empirical existence of this or that thinker is ultimately irrelevant, because the conjuncture of events and thoughts that produced them barrels on regardless. at best, the empirical fact of jacques derrida or michel foucault alters the content of post-structuralism idiosyncratically, but it is hard to suppose that the "content" of these ideas would be recognizably different when they made the migration to the US. in any case, the academic conditions in the US were themselves determined already, and so too were the interpretations and uses to which those thinkers' thoughts would or could be put. with or without derrida, lyotard, deleuze, whomever, i think the social justice phenomenon we're seeing today would still exist. in short, you cant really "blame" any of these particular individuals, so much as the larger social forces that made their """postmodernist""" thinking possible. marxists have a name for that array of forces: capitalism.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 21:02:12 2017 No.9302395 Hmm I read the article and it seems less polemical and more interesting than I expected. The headline is pretty clickbaity though.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 21:02:46 2017 No.9302396 >>9302225 Right wing postmodernists might be few in number but make up for it in insanity

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 21:03:34 2017 No.9302401 >>9302225 I think this past election was them starting to figure it out.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 21:07:46 2017 No.9302421 >>9302387 no you just used a meme word. It's a way of thinking in platitudes.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 21:08:25 2017 No.9302427 >>9302401 The election just showed how stupid America is. You have a qualified and experienced leader and you instead elect a TV star. Your country is fucked.

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 21:11:09 2017 No.9302437

>>9302393
Meaningless sophistry, although you were correct in the first paragraph. It doesn't change the fact that these writers provided much of the ideological backbone needed for these irrationalist movements. Maybe these movements would've still existed, but it's meaningless to suppose a universe where they never existed anyway.

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 21:19:24 2017 No.9302464

>>9302421
I've never personally used the term. I generally dislike the terminology used by that crowd.
>>9302393
Posts somewhat like this are what I try to get, but this anon seems like he's trying to be genuinely informative. Makes me feel like a bit of a jerk. That's also why I toned down my posts on these guys; felt like I was being a little too cruel to them. Seems to have made the responses a little less angry.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 21:20:36 2017 No.9302470 >>9302427 American politics is a shitty reality TV show. It's no surprise at all that a man who excels at reality TV would win an election upon entering it. Matt Taibbi actually had a good article about this, I'll see if I can find it.

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 21:22:02 2017 No.9302479

>>9302427
>qualified and experienced leader
Jesus, it's incredible how you people parrot the same canned phrases and slogans. You're ignoring the vast calculus of factors that led to Trump's election, such as the Trans-Pacific Pact and the fiasco of the Democratic convention, as well as the fact that the rise of right-wing movements across the world goes far beyond and in fact preceded that in America - look at Modi's election in India, Dilma's impeachment in Brazil - all of these indicate that Trump is a symptom of a much larger wave of global unrest, instead of something of a freak symptom. In hindsight, the despise that Trump generated from the establishment made him a stronger candidate, not a weaker one.

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 21:23:35 2017 No.9302484

>>9302427
Dolan:
>I will bring your factory jerbs back through protectionist tariffs, stop the Mexicans from coming in, and protect you from the Muslims.
American population:
>Sounds good to me.
not that complicated, rural America wants jerbs and will vote for whoever seems more likely to bring jerbs back.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 21:26:49 2017 No.9302493 >>9302484 Wagecucks

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 21:28:19 2017 No.9302502 >>9302493 Work dignifies man. Everyone wants at least the feeling that he's contributing something to society, unless you're utterly alienated.

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 21:32:02 2017 No.9302517

>>9302502
I'm pretty sure the main concern of rural Americans is making sure they can pay for food, healthcare, etc., not feeling more dignified because the whip is being cracked on them. Of course, many do view welfare as sinful and jobs as a charitable gift given by a business owner.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 21:43:15 2017 No.9302556 >>9302517 You've no idea how embittering a life of living off on handouts from the state can be, with little margin left for your own leisure other than an immense amount of idle time. Some people would literally die rather than live it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 22:01:38 2017 No.9302631 >>9302556 >You've no idea how embittering a life of living off on handouts from the state can be what do you mean, it rules

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 22:14:40 2017 No.9302688

>>9302437

>Maybe these movements would've still existed, but it's meaningless to suppose a universe where they never existed anyway.

that's exactly my point. i don't see what is sophistic about my post. i was trying to show, in broad, broad outline, that there is a cluster of historical conditions which are more """responsible""" for """""postmodernism""""" than any of its individual exponents. the second paragraph is the historical confirmation of the first paragraph's criticism and thesis.

>>9302464

>genuinely informative.

this is what people forget is necessary. in a somewhat different context, derrida would say something to the effect that even the most militantly deconstructive readings begin with the old school, interpretive, and one might even boldly suggest "empirical," moment of the doubled commentary. not so much because doubling commentary inevitably leads to the kind of aporiae that deconstruction is out for, even though this is the desired end, but because doubled commentary is almost universally recognized in literary and philosophical scholarship as a critical technique, and hence functions as a rhetorical figure that can stably establish groundwork for the more outrageous claims that usually follow. all this to say that even if the kinds of reversals, dissolutions, and atomizations that deconstruction is known for are always bubbling just under the surface of the text, you cant really get to them properly—which is to say convincingly; remember, this is as much rhetorical as philosophical—you can't really get to them with thoroughly mapping that surface in the first place, so as to dowse, as it were, for the rich semantic veins. one must be factually, historically, and textually informed in a register that is familiar, before you can start to break that veneer of familiarity apart and show the deconstruction already at work in that structure or discourse.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 22:23:08 2017 No.9302717 >>9302225 Slavoj Zizek kinda does this in some of his lectures

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 22:32:02 2017 No.9302753 >>9302309 Can you elaborate?

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 22:35:07 2017 No.9302766

>>9302191
It's not so much what the Frankfurters taught but whom they influenced.

In Germany the bulk of our contemporary left-wing party cadres are/were in one way or another related to the 68er students movement.

Like with every conspiracy theory, there is a kernel of truth. The 68ers and far left activists appropriated Critical Theory and turned into a tool of antifa activism.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 22:37:23 2017 No.9302778 >>9302766 You're saying there's something wrong with opposing fascism?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 22:40:46 2017 No.9302800 >>9302766 Nah yeah, I don't dispute the influence of the Frankfurters and so on, for better or worse, I just think the conspiratorial rhetoric - as much as it seizes attention - is silly and overwrought

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 22:42:01 2017 No.9302808

>>9302229
>The idea that somehow a bunch of French philosophers managed to destroy civilization by writing texts that almost no one understands seems highly questionable.

That's sort of why this was possible though. It's because they are difficult to understand that less perceptive people are hoodwiked by those who use them to justify their own bastard conception of post-modernism.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 22:43:11 2017 No.9302813 >>9302427 Youre being delusional if you really think Clinton was any more qualified to be president than Trump

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 22:43:42 2017 No.9302816 >>9302778 There are no fascists left. Antifa today is all about witchhunts >>9302800 I agree.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 22:44:39 2017 No.9302822 >>9302778 Fascism, like any ideology, is only right or wrong based on the values of observers. Calling it right or wrong does nobody any benefit besides informing listeners of your tastes.

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 22:47:44 2017 No.9302840

>>9302808
>That's sort of why this was possible though. It's because they are difficult to understand that less perceptive people are hoodwiked by those who use them to justify their own bastard conception of post-modernism.
I think they would've held those beliefs regardless of whether or not Foucault, Lyotard, Derrida, or whoever existed. It's not that hard to get people to go along with narratives about how they are oppressed, because it makes them feel better about their own failures. You don't need any French philosophy for this. If any thread on here about French philosophers is to be believed, hardly anyone reads them, and even fewer understand them, and that's within humanities academia, a field widely disdained among the general population as being useless.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 22:48:23 2017 No.9302843 This thread is not about literature. It belongs on /pol/.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 22:50:02 2017 No.9302853 >>9302843 Ban all philosophy from this board imo

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 22:50:45 2017 No.9302857 >>9302843 Fuck off. This thread is easily worth a hundred /pol/ threads (and it is about authors).

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 23:57:27 2017 No.9303108 >>9302137 >>9302143 Can I get the source on this? Rorty muh nigga

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 00:02:35 2017 No.9303126 >>9302816 More like there are no fascists left because our entire society is a military industrial fascist warmachine inexorably marching towards total annihilation and there's nothing we can do about it

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 00:08:05 2017 No.9303136 >>9302137 It's deliciously ironic that Foucault and Deleuze spent their lives trying to be as Edgy as humanly possible only to become the official ideologists of dullest beigeist academia after their deaths.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 00:20:20 2017 No.9303171 >>9303126 We must accept Islam to save us from our Christian rulers.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 00:23:41 2017 No.9303178 >>>/pol/ what is the point it's containment boards is they're not enforced?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 01:35:43 2017 No.9303335 File: 219 KB, 2500x1664, 140707-pope-francis-vatican-827a_0d92620f0558de5c32c0225e297942b6.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9303171 It is not licit to do evil in the service of good, Anon. Theologians have already agreed on this.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 03:12:18 2017 No.9303512 >>9303335 Go back to /pol/.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 03:14:06 2017 No.9303515 >>9303512 but /pol/ are consequentialists, unlike the poster you replied to

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 03:22:17 2017 No.9303537 >>9303515 He's an Islamophobe, just like /pol/.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 03:26:45 2017 No.9303539 >>9303537 Muslims would consider it 'evil' to accept Christianity too, for accepting falsehood.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 03:29:31 2017 No.9303544 >>9303539 But Christians aren't a marginalised group.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 03:31:08 2017 No.9303546 >>9303544 stop baiting me

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 03:33:38 2017 No.9303554
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>>9302065

"On the other hand, the schema of salvation, of perfection, initiation, and illumination, is entirely different. It consists in focusing the division on subjects rather than actions. Salvation, perfection, illumination, and initiation select between those who are saved and those who are not, those who have received the light and those who have not, those who are initiated and those who are not. And it is the quality of the subject that determines the quality of the action. This appears very clearly in the conception of the philosophical wisdom of the first Stoics, which accepted that someone who has attained perfection can no longer do evil." - Feb 27, 1980 lecture at the College de France on the evolution of Christian theology

where the fuck do people get the idea that Foucault was some kind of menstrual blood collecting gender studies postmodernist

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 03:36:13 2017 No.9303561 >>9303546 How is that not true?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 03:38:38 2017 No.9303562 >>9302301 Like that bigot Jordan Peterson. Holy shit, why hasn't he been publicly executed yet?

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 03:44:48 2017 No.9303570 [SPOILER]

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>>9303561
It has no relevance. The other anon is making a statement about truth, his belief is that one should not do evil in the service of good. In other words, the ends do not justify the means. Given his Catholic perspective, he would consider conversion to Islam a grave moral evil because it leads people away from the truth, away from God and away from salvation - as well as because its system of morality would sanction acts considered immoral in Catholic dogma, and condemn others considered good and necessary.

also pic related

why am I letting myself get trolled?

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 03:45:18 2017 No.9303571

>>9303554
>someone who has attained perfection can no longer do evil.
>on the evolution of Christian theology
This is a terrible representation of Christian theology. No orthodox theologian would tell you that saved people are responsible for their salvation, let alone free from evil.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 03:48:54 2017 No.9303579 >>9303570 You need to go back to /pol/, too.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 04:47:44 2017 No.9303662 >>9302631 I know, it's awesome as fuck and I feel sorry for those people who'd have no idea what to do with it. There's no way I'd have been able to achieve half of what I have if I had to constantly be in full time employment.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 04:51:03 2017 No.9303670

>In order to regain credibility, the Left needs to recover a strong, coherent and reasonable liberalism. To do this, we need to out-discourse the postmodern-Left. We need to meet their oppositions, divisions and hierarchies with universal principles of freedom, equality and justice. There must be a consistency of liberal principles in opposition to all attempts to evaluate or limit people by race, gender or sexuality. We must address concerns about immigration, globalism and authoritarian identity politics currently empowering the far- Right rather than calling people who express them “racist,” “sexist” or “homophobic” and accusing them of wanting to commit verbal violence. We can do this whilst continuing to oppose authoritarian factions of the Right who genuinely are racist, sexist and homophobic, but can now hide behind a façade of reasonable opposition to the postmodern-Left.

Fucking thank you god.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 05:05:33 2017 No.9303697 >>9303670 How can the left claim to support both workers and immigration?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 05:22:21 2017 No.9303737 >>9302688 Wow, someone who knows their Derrida.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 05:57:50 2017 No.9303802 >>9303554 He was a hack just like all the other postmodernist retards

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 06:26:09 2017 No.9303857

>>9302137
>>9302143

Every response against postmodernism is like this. I want to read about people criticizing the actual IDEAS. Not just, "postmodernism gave rise to playing victim and complaining and resentment in academia"

What are the rebuffs against the postmodernist arguments?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 06:29:28 2017 No.9303867 >>9302502 But we live in a time when most work is completely removed from feeling meaningful. Its all just corporate irritation and making shit no one needs.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 06:32:21 2017 No.9303875 >>9303867 How so? >making shit no one needs That has existed since the beginning of history, you could say that "culture" as a whole is the making of shit no one strictly needs.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 06:42:04 2017 No.9303897

>>9303875
Back in the day, work wasn't so overspecialised. You could create a product and do most of it yourself.

Now, you're either just one part of a whole, making the same thing over and over again, or if you don't physically produce, clean, or otherwise do something, either indirectly or directly, then you probably just sit around on a fucking computer wasting away or making inane phone calls.

Do you really feel like most jobs are contributing anything worthwhile to society? It seems to me like very few do, and very few allow you to have a sense of satisfaction with your work, unless you buy too much into the ideology of your time, and be told what's good and worthwhile.

Sure, you can be an entrepreneur, invent something, help the world in that way. Introduce something everyone needs and wants to make their life better. Craft a product. But not everyone is cut out for that. In the old days you could be a farmer or artisan, but now, its too hyper-competitive, monopolistic and hyper-specialised for that to be a viable option for most people. Even honest journalism is dying. I guess some jobs, like being a medical doctor or something are rewarding, but not most.

In the past, most jobs seemed to directly have a visible and beneficial effect on the community.

I don't think its unreasonable or undignified for people to despise working in late capitalism. Its comfortable, but sucks.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 06:43:23 2017 No.9303902 >>9303697 Because immigrants are workers?

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 06:47:40 2017 No.9303910

>>9303897
>Do you really feel like most jobs are contributing anything worthwhile to society?
Give me something like an utility function of how a job contributes something to society and we can talk. As far as I'm concerned, as far as one is paying his taxes and not dumping toxic waste into the nearest river, it's good enough. Otherwise we're just talking in subjectivist circles.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 06:49:43 2017 No.9303916 >>9303902 They lower the price of labour and take away leverage from unions if they work. I guess you've found some common ground with big business if you support immigration.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 06:52:58 2017 No.9303924

>>9303910
>As far as I'm concerned, as far as one is paying his taxes and not dumping toxic waste into the nearest river, it's good enough

I was specifically responding to the claim>>9302502
that
>Everyone wants at least the feeling that he's contributing something to society, unless you're utterly alienated.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 07:09:54 2017 No.9303956 >>9303916 Businesses do those things. Why are we blaming the exploited for the effects of worker exploitation? Should we blame people who do drugs for the prison-industrial complex?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 07:30:29 2017 No.9304012 >>9303956 Why should we import people to give businesses an advantage?

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 07:46:51 2017 No.9304067

>>9304012
Again this ignores the actual problem. Why not just give workers more fucking rights so immigrants wouldnt necessarily be competing with citizens or benefitting businesses? If businesses had to pay immigrants min. wage, we wouldnt have to worry about them overly competing with citizens.

This is all beside the fact that claims that immigrant labor injures jobs possibilities for citizens are unsubstantiated.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 07:47:33 2017 No.9304069 >>9304012 the socialist solution would be to start government programs to re-train people in understaffed fields. not chase bad jobs by denying a refugee a chance at living.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 07:53:03 2017 No.9304104

>>9304067
So every low skilled job should be paying the minimum wage? Unions have fought for more than the minimum wage and an increase in workers decreases their leverage over businesses.
It's basic supply and demand, increase the supply (of labour) decrease the price.
>>9304069
Not refugees, immigrants. Refugees are temporary.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 07:54:27 2017 No.9304109 >>9304104 >refugees are temporary >there are people who unironically believe this

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 07:55:04 2017 No.9304113 >>9304109 By definition they are.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 07:56:07 2017 No.9304115 >>9302080 /thread

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:00:24 2017 No.9304124

>>9304104
>an increase in worke-
Why the fuck dont unions just recruit immigrants? Oh right, again, because immigrants dont have those sorts of rights or protections. They'll literally just starve if they act up.
And do you have actual empirical evidense that immigrants damage citizen workers? Because the whole
>basic supply and demand
Argument is a bit of a reach. You're just purposefully not thinking of solutions.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:00:51 2017 No.9304125 >>9304104 >labor is a commodity which follows immutable economic """laws"""

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:03:25 2017 No.9304131 >>9304124 Then where is the leverage? You still have too many workers. You can't just withhold workers. It's a fundamental law of economics, hardly a reach. I've got a solution, stop taking in immigrants.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:04:49 2017 No.9304133

>>9304104
>So every low skilled job should be paying the minimum wage?
Yes because humanity always trumps dubious theories like the subjective theory of value. Skilled or not, if a job takes up most of your weeks and days, then you deserve to be able to have basic necessasities.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:05:17 2017 No.9304135 >>9304125 Yes, it is. It is sold on the market like anything else.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:06:00 2017 No.9304137 >>9304131 >fundamental law of economics So a priori silliness that rivals Spinoza in it's unfoundedness? Neat.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:06:19 2017 No.9304138 >>9304133 Read my post again.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:08:44 2017 No.9304147 >>9304137 Go find a high school economics textbook, it should be on chapter 1.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:10:24 2017 No.9304151

>>9304131
How does having more workers make a union weaker?
Large unions tend to better execute their goals. And yes, you can just withhold workers, thats generally one of the things unions do, its called a strike.
Again, if immigrants had the protections citizens had in the work force, they could feel safe enough to actually join a union knowing they wont just get fired and possibly deported.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:13:37 2017 No.9304155

>>9304151
They can strike so native workers lose wages stick up for colonist rights. I'm sure everyone will be on board. Why do people have to bend over backwards to help foreigners establish themselves in their country? Would it not be more efficient to just turn immigrants back? Obviously, this hurts corporate interests, but hypothetically if a workers party held majority.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:13:38 2017 No.9304156

>>9304147
Again, completely unempirical. Go read modern economists; the tenets of "basic economics" are often false and built on dubious claims. Classical, Keynesian, and Austrian economics are all unempricial and built axiomarically, hence the comparison to Spinoza. They are not sciences, they are tenactious belief systems.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:15:40 2017 No.9304158 >>9304156 I don't think you have any idea about supply and demand or economics in general. That's why you spout these broad, meaningless statements with no reference to anything that would show a glimpse of your understanding.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:17:12 2017 No.9304161

>>9304155
>why do people have to bend over backwards to [help people attain personal liberty and welfare]
Because I value those two things, and moreso value humanity for its own sake.

>would it not be more efficient to turn them back
Efficient towards what end? If the end is humanity, then no. Denying people opportunity does not magically make opportunity appear in their homeland.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:22:19 2017 No.9304168

>>9304158
I don't think you have any idea about axiomatic systems or economics in general. That's why you spout these broad, meaningless statements with no reference to anything that would show a glimpse of your understanding.
Anyway, Im not calling into question the theory of supply and demand. Im calling in to question your hamfisted use of it to claim that immigrants hurt the ability of citizens to work and unionize. Is there any actual evidence of this? Because by and large the two arent even in the same worker demographic due to class differences.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:23:35 2017 No.9304174

>>9304161
I don't care about your moral viewpoint.
It does actually, look at Australia before 1966. Strong anti-immigration policy from Labor and the unions, wealth equality between workers and owners, and strong industries. This was thanks to keep immigration to a minimum and protecting the country from foreign intervention and free trade

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:27:26 2017 No.9304184

>>9304168
Unions can't stop an over supply of workers in the labour force. What will they do then? Try to force businesses into hiring more workers? Look at the unemployment in western countries, does it look like jobs are plentiful? There are already too many workers, due to immigration, and you want more? Soon enough all low skilled workers will be working for minimum wage if we keep this up. Why not just set up detention centres for refugees and send them back when it is safe to do so?

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:30:24 2017 No.9304192

>>9304158
You literally cant deny that economics is axiomatic though. Its "laws" are not deduced or even abduced, they exist as a priori notions that sadly are just tenacious axioms like those in Spinoza's Ethics or Euclid's geometry. A whole bunch of neat things follow from them necessarily, but the acceptance of the axioms themselves is ultimately a baseless assumption. Not that other studies dont have basic assumptions, but Hardy&Weinberg or Kepler at least knew their laws were describing ideal states, not actual ones.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:30:38 2017 No.9304193 >Postmodernism has become a Lyotardian metanarrative, a Foucauldian system of discursive power, and a Derridean oppressive hierarchy. RIP in peace

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:32:46 2017 No.9304198 >>9304104 refugees become immigrants. a large part of immigration is the signing of the geneva convention. which I think the broadly a positive thing. but that's besides the point. re-training is a better option.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:33:39 2017 No.9304201 >>9303108 the collection "Rorty and his Critics", his reply to Jacques Bouveresse

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:36:00 2017 No.9304211

>>9304198
It was positive for the big businesses and corporations, yes. Not good for workers. Retrain them for what? These are low skilled jobs we're talking about. Why should workers be forced into different industries to accommodate new settlers? Why bring the refugees in at all?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:44:25 2017 No.9304240 >>9304211 because there is a surplus a work in some areas and not in others. because the countries that signed the convention have an obligation to honour their commitment.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:47:22 2017 No.9304251 >>9304240 Which low skilled jobs need workers? Give a country and an example from that country. You're all for global capitalist institutions as soon as immigrants are involved.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:49:51 2017 No.9304260 >>9304251 health care due to an ageing boomer population. most western countries. re-training isn't a global policy, so that doesn't make sense.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:54:35 2017 No.9304272

>>9304260
So what happens with the, in some cases, up to 15% unemployed? Why train immigrants when you could be training them? And that is only one industry, one largely controlled by the government in western countries.
So, really, with the high unemployment in western countries, it makes more sense to train the unemployed than bringing in colonists. So why bring them in, again?

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:55:54 2017 No.9304280

>>9304260
Immigration as a solution to a percieved demographic problem is shortsighted, especially when it's mostly young men that actually arrive in the recieving countries. Sweden apparently has a greater surplus of young men than China. Even if the approach should proof to be successful in revitalizing the country, the immigrants will probably accustom to the western lifestyle within two or three generations and the problem will resurface. It would be more helpful to develop policies that actually help people in general and those whose social circles have given up on having children in particular (eg academics) maintain stable families.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:57:13 2017 No.9304283 >>9304280 *prove

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:57:41 2017 No.9304285 >>9304272 because you do re-train that 15%. yes, in every country there is only one growing industry.in need a labour, derp. again, because these countries signed a convention that they need to honour.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 08:59:59 2017 No.9304293

>>9304280
In Australia expenses are so high that having a family at a young age is now totally unfeasible. Rent is sky high, housing prices are worse, the mining boom is over and jobs are scarce, goods are expensive, and there is only a small government handout for childbirth. No wonder the population is declining.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:01:47 2017 No.9304298 >>9304285 Most western countries are losing industries overseas and jobs to automation and regulation. The convention is anti-worker, global capitalist tripe and needs to be stamped out.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:04:46 2017 No.9304311 >>9304298 that's a policy issue, not the geneva conventions fault. the modern geopolitical word rests on documents like these. get rid of them and you further destabilise the world. that sounds bad for workers.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:05:51 2017 No.9304315 >>9304311 Can't be worse than being flooded with competition.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:06:51 2017 No.9304320 >>9304298 also, stop moving the goal posts. if you hate immigrants, that's fine but stop acting like you have a sophisticated justification for immigration.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:09:04 2017 No.9304327 >>9304315 war and famine and exclusionary trading blocs can't be worse? lol. so you'd prefer we live like our grandparents did in the depression? cool theory bro

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:09:55 2017 No.9304332 >>9304320 Why do you hate workers, you middle class prick?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:11:14 2017 No.9304337 >>9304327 So by stopping immigration we get war and famine? Sounds like we're being held hostage. The elite must really want immigration and global capitalism, huh?

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:15:03 2017 No.9304347

>muh immigration
plenty of mainstream economists argue that third-world immigration makes certain first-world workers worse off due to competition, but that the quality of life gains made by the third-worlders and resulting lower consumer prices is a net gain. Whether you actually believe this or not is up to you.

I think the problem with this sort of argument is that it places no weight towards people in a given nation, just maximization of some global utility function. In short, you are not going to have a popular government by telling your citizens that they need to suck it up and take lower wages for the greater good of the ascendant Chinese middle class.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:18:54 2017 No.9304360

>>9304320
I don't. I'm a kitchen hand. if automation and transglobal companies are shrinking the job market, all stopping immigration will do is keep workers in low paying jobs while the unemployment rate rises due to a shrinking market. retraining is a much better option.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:19:25 2017 No.9304362
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>>9304347
>Owing to the constantly increasing concentration of leaseholds, Ireland constantly sends her own surplus to the English labor market, and thus forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the English working class.

>And most important of all! Every industrial and commercial centre in England now possesses a working class divided into two hostile camps, English proletarians and Irish proletarians. The ordinary English worker hates the Irish worker as a competitor who lowers his standard of life. In relation to the Irish worker he regards himself as a member of the ruling nation and consequently he becomes a tool of the English aristocrats and capitalists against Ireland, thus strengthening their domination over himself. He cherishes religious, social, and national prejudices against the Irish worker. His attitude towards him is much the same as that of the “poor whites” to the Negroes in the former slave states of the U.S.A. The Irishman pays him back with interest in his own money. He sees in the English worker both the accomplice and the stupid tool of the English rulers in Ireland.

>This antagonism is artificially kept alive and intensified by the press, the pulpit, the comic papers, in short, by all the means at the disposal of the ruling classes. This antagonism is the secret of the impotence of the English working class, despite its organization. It is the secret by which the capitalist class maintains its power. And the latter is quite aware of this.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:20:40 2017 No.9304368 >>9304337 no, the domino effect of getting rid of things like the geneva convention will create a more unstable world. I'm just repeating myself now, so if that's all you got then I'm done.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:20:41 2017 No.9304369 >>9304360 So retrain and keep immigrants out. Or, perhaps, have industries within your own borders and use protectionism to keep them competitive domestically.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:21:43 2017 No.9304375 >>9304368 Yes, and legalising homosexual marriage will lead to people fucking dogs and children. Nice slippery slope.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:22:19 2017 No.9304377 >>9304362 Whatever Karl, who gives a shit until there is an actually-existing global labor movement? By any indication, workers appear to be more interested in maximizing their own wages than in global coordination to overthrow capitalism.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:22:26 2017 No.9304378 >>9304369 that didn't work in the 20s and there is no evidence that it will work now.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:23:25 2017 No.9304382 >>9304378 It did in Australia. Until 1966 workers were very well off in relation to owners.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:24:13 2017 No.9304386 >>9304375 yes, and destabilising the Middle East made the world.a better place. you're a goof

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:26:26 2017 No.9304390 >>9304382 no I didn't. my family were factory workers and none of my mother's siblings made it through high school because they couldn't afford to make ends meet unless everyone was working. sounds like you're the one who is middle class.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:26:38 2017 No.9304391 >>9304386 I don't think it did, it was used by global capitalists to flood the labour markets in western countries for cheap labour and secure the natural resources of the mid east.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:27:10 2017 No.9304392 >>9303544 Yes they are.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:28:21 2017 No.9304396 >>9304391 exactly. destabilising the world is not a slippery slope argument. we can see the effects of a destabilised region rn.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:30:14 2017 No.9304398

>>9304390
Most people didn't finish high school (year 10) and could still afford to buy land and live fairly comfortably. 16 year olds fresh out of school were far, far, far better off than they are now. Even retail jobs paid a good living wage. Factories were even better. You were set for life if you worked in a factory. You don't know what you're talking about.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:32:33 2017 No.9304403 >>9304396 So how do you get from stopping immigration to causing war and famine?

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:33:10 2017 No.9304405

Also, third-world immigration won't actually solve the unemployment/precarious employment problem in rich countries. All you accomplish is moving them to a safer country in which to earn lower wage, and it's not like we can empty out the entire third world and settle them in the US. Assuming that factories continue to become more productive, we could still see a situation in which most assembly-line production happens in poor countries, and unemployment in rich countries increases, except we now also have a bunch of third-worlders that we rescued. The world now has a perpetual oversupply of lower-skill labor, and immigration decisions should be made with this in mind, assuming that countries should be allowed to decide who can live there (some people obviously believe they should not be able to do this) and immigration policy should have some kind of goal beyond being a rescue program for third-worlders that almost views them as pets in need of a safer home.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:35:05 2017 No.9304410

>>9304398
lol. okay mr middle class. try talking to an actual worker sometime. medicare and free education was what lifted the working class out of poverty and allowed them to move up as european immigrants filled those factory style jobs. no one was living off a line wage you goof. I'm done. can't deal with your stupidity.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:36:23 2017 No.9304414 >>9304403 I already told you. I'm not going to repeat myself a third time. you got nothing. go to bed.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:41:14 2017 No.9304425

>>9304410
You don't know what you're talking about, you really don't. Factory jobs were as highly valued as railway jobs. Here in Tasmania there was always a good job for a new worker, be it on the railway, timber, mining, or farming. I don't know where you're from, but if factory jobs were bad your place was fucked. Maybe your parents told you too many horror stories,but every old timer I've known has noted how everyone was better off then. What kind of a job can a 14-16 year old even get now? Men got jobs, married before they were 20 and had kids, all living off one wage.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:43:51 2017 No.9304433 >>9304414 You're just saying that X will follow from Y, not why.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:46:53 2017 No.9304445

>>9304425
all old timers in every generation has said things were better when they were young. cicero complains constantly about the young romans. I'm coming from a proper working class family and one that didn't make it. everyones parents in my community have the same story. funny how everyone in housing commission has the same story and I'm the one who doesn't know what their taking about huh. you're a joke. stop using poor australians as a justification for your stupid opinions passed as facts.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:53:24 2017 No.9304458

>>9304445
Where do you even live? Sydney? You're not a worker if you don't work, by the way.
Your parents and grandparents probably didn't work either. Back in the days after federation farms employed dozens of men, you can still see the old houses they lived in on some farms. The timber industry employed thousands all over the state. Mining employed thousands, railways employed thousands, and factories employed thousands in cities. You don't give any examples, just a supposed sob story from your bludger parents.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:57:07 2017 No.9304465 >>9304458 lol. yeah, we didn't work. that's your last stance huh? typical middle class scorn as soon as a working class person contradicts your view of the world. have a nice life cuck.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 09:58:21 2017 No.9304472
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Stop overestimating the reach of intellectuals, most people don't know or care about French '''intellectuals''' and whatever language people are talking in circles to each other in universities doesn't really matter if it's just confined to jerk off circles. Postmodernism has wasted a lot of mental energy but had less impact on those in power than other ideologies that emerged in the 20th century, the only ideology which emerged and actually had a real global impact on policy was neoliberalism, which actually practically achieved hegemonic status in real policy circles and got to the point that most people on the street would agree with it's basic precepts through successful marketing by right wing think tanks.
Postmodernism had an influence on some Tumblrinas but neoliberalism influenced real policy makers that had real control over state apparatuses; believe it or not Reagan, Clinton, Bush or Obama weren’t actually influenced by Foucault.

>>9304405
>Assuming that factories continue to become more productive, we could still see a situation in which most assembly-line production happens in poor countries, and unemployment in rich countries increases
Nope, automation means production will eventually return to the first world countries since low cost labour won't be an asset any more. FDI will start collapsing in the not so distant future and underdevelopment will intensify since there will be no route to development.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-this-era-of-globalization-is-coming-to-an-end-2016-06-07
>Manufacturing is moving to shorter supply chains, and that will provide fewer opportunities for the developing world

Unemployment in rich countries will increase because high employing industries like transportation will be automated.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 10:02:28 2017 No.9304486

>>9304465
You haven't shown anything. You've just whinged because your grandparents didn't finish high school. That wasn't even a hindrance then, most people didn't make it past year 9. You think factories were bad when they actually meant a good, steady income without constant movement or 24hr work. You're either a fraud or an idiot.I

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 10:07:10 2017 No.9304496 >>9304486 I've given reasons why things improved for the working class. I'm not going to repeat myself just because you can't or won't read. you know things aren't true just because you type them right? yeah, you probably don't.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 10:10:02 2017 No.9304506 >>9304496 The working class is much worse off today. Look at home ownership, family size, employment rate, casual/part-time participation, debt, and so on.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 10:10:54 2017 No.9304508

>>9304472
>Stop overestimating the reach of intellectuals
It's hard to do that when the most significant ones work at institutions that serve the purpose of selecting the elite class and make business/political success possible through their education and networking opportunities. Their alumni even repay them for it by giving them endowments larger than the GDP of some countries. It would b dishonest to say that academics have no power or influence.
>Postmodernism had an influence on some Tumblrinas
Because activists also have no influence, and politically active young people will never hold power in the future.
>believe it or not Reagan, Clinton, Bush or Obama weren’t actually influenced by Foucault
I have heard it claimed that Foucault did have ties to libertarianism. Haven't really investigated the claim myself.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 10:12:16 2017 No.9304514 >>9304506 yeah, what you mean is the middle class is much worse off today and I agree with you. home ownership was never a concern for working class people because their jobs were shit then and they are shit now, ya dummy.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 10:14:14 2017 No.9304526 >>9304514 The majority of working class people, excluding farm workers who lived on farms, owned their own homes. What jobs are working class if mining, timber, farming, and factory jobs aren't working class?

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 10:21:14 2017 No.9304553

>>9304526
factory line workers, semesters, cleaners, handymen, fruit pickers etc. etc.
and yet I live in a community where every single person didn't earn enough to own their own home. I guess they secretly didn't work though and we're all bludgers or that I'm lying or an idiot. that'd be more convenient for you. then you can still blame everything on immigration. you know, I hope one nation gets elected, just so you can experience the depression that protectionist polices produce. get some real working class experience under your belt.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 10:23:42 2017 No.9304563

>>9304508
>It's hard to do that when the most significant ones work at institutions that serve the purpose of selecting the elite class and make business/political success possible through their education and networking opportunities. Their alumni even repay them for it by giving them endowments larger than the GDP of some countries. It would b dishonest to say that academics have no power or influence.
Think tanks and lobbies are where the real agendas are set, they breed '''intellectuals''' at places like the Council on Foreign Relations but they're of a totally different sort

>Because activists also have no influence, and politically active young people will never hold power in the future.
Activists end up having to be pandered to by power elites and having some indirect influence on the periphery of things but they don't seize real power or even have much influence on the course of things

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 10:25:28 2017 No.9304567
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Continental philosophy is far, far more suited to reaction than even adorno assumes.

That enterprising right-radicals haven't co-opted the manifold critiques of modernity ripe in ENS is a massive oversight. Reverse intellectual legitimacy with the priests of cosmopolitan civilization and gain the coherent intellectual footing American reactionaries have been looking for since Adams in one easy step

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 10:30:12 2017 No.9304579

>>9304553
Where do you live? Give me some stats?

>http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/sundayextra/home-ownership-in-australia-how-did-we-get-here-what-comes-next/6542820
Says working immigrants could easily buy a house in 1920.

The basic wage was eight shillings a day in 1910. That was easily enough t live on with a wife and children.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 10:35:52 2017 No.9304598 >>9304567 What are you saying? right-radicals have co-opted post-modernism, they've op-opted it so hard the left-wing groups have literally no clue how to advance.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 10:38:34 2017 No.9304604

>>9304579
http://www.skwirk.com/p-c_s-14_u-127_t-348_c-1204/life-for-the-working-class/nsw/life-for-the-working-class/australia-to-1914/life-in-australia-at-the-turn-of-the-century

>>working class women and children had to get jobs because one wage was not enough

http://www.australia.gov.au/about-australia/australian-story/changing-face-of-modern-australia-1900s-to-1940s

>>most immigrants came skilled.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 10:39:11 2017 No.9304608 >>9304115 How can you close the thread if there is no clear incentive / topic to be discussed and conclusion to be drawn?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 10:41:00 2017 No.9304611 >>9304608 Desperation, they actually don't know anything about academic philosophy if they believe >>9302080 so they need to stop the discussion.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 10:42:08 2017 No.9304613

>>9302065
Shit article, but one comment made the click worth it. Derrida quote (according to commenter):

>I have always mistrusted the cult of the identitarian, as well as that of the communitarian discourse often associated with it. I am always seeking to recall the more and more necessary dissociation between the political and the territorial. So I share your anxiety concerning the communitarian logic, the identitarian compulsion, and like you I resist this movement that tends toward a narcissism of minorities that is developing everywhere — including within feminist movements.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 10:43:05 2017 No.9304615

>>9304579
http://www.skwirk.com/p-c_s-14_u-43_t-50_c-150/workers/nsw/history/australia-between-the-wars-1920s/australians-between-the-wars-1920s

>>The 1920s saw the escalation of tension between workers and their employers. The plight of the workers was represented by various unions and the formation of the Australian Council for Trade Unions (ACTU) in 1927 was one victory in the long battle for workers' rights.

The number of workers in Australia increased dramatically in the post-War period with the return of the diggers. However, working conditions, wages and hours for workers did not change to accommodate this increase. Unions attempted to reduce the working week to 44 hours. The unions were successful in all industries except mining and maritime.

meant to post this one as well.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 10:45:14 2017 No.9304621

>>9304604
>>>working class women and children had to get jobs because one wage was not enough
No specific year, examples, or data is cited even though almanacs exist.
http://www.australia.gov.au/about-australia/australian-story/changing-face-of-modern-australia-1900s-to-1940s
>Immigrants from Britain came from all walks of life.
Hmmm.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 10:46:38 2017 No.9304627 >>9304615 So an increase in workers is bad? I thought you said it was good. Even in a post war boom.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 10:48:42 2017 No.9304638 >>9304621 lol. well I guess there's no telling you.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 10:51:13 2017 No.9304647 >>9304638 Maybe cite actual data, rather than pointing to a random time apparently between 1901 and 1914 with no examples or data.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 10:52:13 2017 No.9304651 >>9304627 oh, so now links are worthwhile, when they agree with you. I didn't say it was good. I said retraining is better at creating jobs, doofus. I know it's hard for you to read posts but try harder next time.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 10:58:26 2017 No.9304662

>>9304651
It's about the content of the link, not the link itself.
You want to create jobs to fill a hole you made. How about you don't dig the hole in the first place? Don't import more workers to compete with the workers already there. You don't solve anything, you just increase the size of the labour market.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 11:01:38 2017 No.9304673

>>9304647
lol. Its cute you think there is quantifiable data on the depression. very low report rates back then because things were shit. any statistical data making broad claims is not worth shit. history is our best window into understanding australia in the 1920. it wasn't until 1954 that we had our first reliable nationwide census. you know, because of the wars. you can't be that stupid.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 11:03:14 2017 No.9304680 >>9304662 we lost a generation of men in ww1 and half that in ww2. you're really talking out your ass here.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 11:04:50 2017 No.9304686 File: 28 KB, 526x360, 1487272581910.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >labour historian He chose the most saturated sub-discipline by FAR, this is what happens when you take from academic advisers.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 11:08:17 2017 No.9304705

>>9304673
I'm actually talking about before the wars primarily, kid. The wars and the depression tend to skew things, you see. It is also the time my grandparents were married and my information largely comes from them. He was a dairy farmer at the time.
You seem to have given up on trying to actually show any evidence for your claims. You don't even know what we're talking about. Just go back to your LNP meeting, kid. Shill for open borders and free trade there, you worker hating cunt.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 11:09:51 2017 No.9304708 >>9304680 That is totally irrelevant to what I'm saying. Do you even know how to read. I'm talking about your malformed idea of retraining.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 11:13:58 2017 No.9304719

>>9304563
>Think tanks and lobbies are where the real agendas are set, they breed '''intellectuals''' at places like the Council on Foreign Relations but they're of a totally different sort
I'm not denying their influence. I'm only claiming that academic institutions (especially the most prestigious ones) also wield a considerable amount of it even if it may be different in nature. Harvard has an endowment larger than the GDP of Bolivia, and they've facilitated the ascensions of many of our political/economic/social elite. That's enough for the ideas expressed therein to gain considerable social influence.
The current president and the four preceding him all attended ivy league institutions, and I doubt they would have reached that position (except maybe Trump) without having attended one.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 11:16:30 2017 No.9304725

>>9304705
no, we were talking about the 20s when australia was at peak protectionist policies. which you claimed was a paradise were every factory worker owned their own homes.
I gave three links that refuted that and now it comes out you want to go further back than that and your basing it on the opinion of a dairy farmer? my grandfather worked in a kiosk his whole life. he would tell you different. as I said, try talking to the working class instead of using us as a scapegoat for your stupid opinions.

nice deflect btw. I've given up because you're backed into a corner, nice. have fun at your one nation meeting, KID. lol

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 11:26:05 2017 No.9304752

>>9304725
no, we were talking about the 20s when australia was at peak protectionist policies.
Odd time to bring that up now, I'd say. I was referring to a different time. You see there was a war just before this period, and a depression depending where you place it. I don't know if you realise this.
>I gave three links that refuted that
I never said women didn't have to work during the war and depression. You seem to think that simply posting a link backs up your claim, as if links are correct in of themselves. You should know that the information in your link needs to show data or evidence, not claims.
>my grandfather worked in a kiosk his whole life.
See what a crowded labour market does? In Tasmania, a place with a much smaller population than your city, jobs were plentiful. When you crowd your labour market you have less jobs and lower earnings.
Farm workers aren't working class now? People who worked 24 hours a day against someone who stood in a box. Maybe he should have done some real work, like a man. Was he crippled? Even billy boys did more work.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 11:35:48 2017 No.9304781

>>9304752
lol. more scorn for the working class. it seems your happy to use us as a shield for your shit opinions and quick to sneer at them for making ends meet as best they can.

and now farmers work 24 hours a day. no, farmers own the profits of their labour, they are not working class unless someone else owns the land they farm.

I know there was a war, which is why your claims are so bogus. didn't stop you from making them though.

I already posted why there is no reliable quantifiable data on this period. maybe you should read up on the history of the census.

tasmania is not comparable to the east and west coasts of australia. of course population density factors in but that's the case with or without immigration.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 11:43:20 2017 No.9304793 >>9302183 Yes, because /lit/ postmodernists are the average leftist, right? William Gaddis and Thomas Pynchon are only of the utmost concern to Clinton supporters & Marxist revolutionaries.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 11:44:33 2017 No.9304795

>>9304781
>lol. more scorn for the working class. it seems your happy to use us as a shield for your shit opinions and quick to sneer at them for making ends meet as best they can.
I wouldn't call standing in a box working.
>and now farmers work 24 hours a day. no
Farmers have always worked 24 hours a day and still do.
>farmers own the profits of their labour, they are not working class unless someone else owns the land they farm.
Farms employed dozens of men back then, owners were the minority. He was not an owner.
>I know there was a war, which is why your claims are so bogus. didn't stop you from making them though.
I wasn't talking about post-war.
>I already posted why there is no reliable quantifiable data on this period. maybe you should read up on the history of the census.
So you can't back up your claim?
>tasmania is not comparable to the east and west coasts of australia. of course population density factors in but that's the case with or without immigration.
Immigration would just make it worse. You want low population density, not raising it by importing foreigners. Sometimes you have to go and look for work, real work. If the timber work is on the west coast of Tasmania, for example, you have to go. We didn't just sit in boxes here, we did real work. No wonder your grandfather made no money, he wanted to sit in a box and get free money. Fucking layabout. A disgrace to call him a worker.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 11:48:26 2017 No.9304812 >>9303857 The most respected one I can think of is Habermas's.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 11:49:28 2017 No.9304821 >>9304613 Oh shit. That's great.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 11:51:48 2017 No.9304831

>>9304795
I'm surprised he's alive with all that lack of sleep. it's a medical miracle that farmers don't sleep. you're an idiot.

I've back up my claims. I've yet to see you evidence besides a badly done survey which doesn't give any information on the percentage of wages collected.

haha "real work". I'm glad your doing it tough. hopefully things will continue to get worse and you'll have to live like an actual working class person. I guess my grandmother and parents didn't work either because they stood at an assembly belt. you know, just standing around.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 11:55:02 2017 No.9304845

>>9304831
>I'm surprised he's alive with all that lack of sleep. it's a medical miracle that farmers don't sleep. you're an idiot.
I hope you're pretending to be retarded.
>I've back up my claims
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Stop.
>haha "real work". I'm glad your doing it tough
I'm not sitting in a box selling trinkets, I work a real job, a manual job.
>I guess my grandmother and parents didn't work either because they stood at an assembly belt. you know, just standing around.
Shouldn't have lived in an overpopulated shithole. Just shows how bad immigration is.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 11:59:32 2017 No.9304859

>>9304845
you think farmers work 24hrs a day and I'm the retard.

so your not going to back up your claims? cool.

ooh, a REAL job. lol.

ah huh. well I'm glad we've established that you're are in fact anti-working class and using us as a cover for your backwards opinion. which your grandfather told you was fact. I hope he tells you to jump off a bridge next.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 12:13:12 2017 No.9304902

>>9304859
>you think farmers work 24hrs a day and I'm the retard
You are the retard. I hope you're not serious.
>so your not going to back up your claims? cool.
I cited both my claims on home ownership in 1910 and the basic income in 1910.
>h huh. well I'm glad we've established that you're are in fact anti-working class and using us as a cover for your backwards opinion. which your grandfather told you was fact. I hope he tells you to jump off a bridge next.
A person who decides to work in a fucking kiosk deserves the low wage. You have to work for something. I support workers being treated fairly, not being given money for sitting in a box. You're anti worker, you want to import more competition into the same crowded areas you couldn't get money out of 100 years ago. Can you not see how overpopulation is bad for workers? When you stay in the city, rather than working away where there's money, you're shooting yourself in the foot. You want to baby workers and give them money for nothing. You don't give a shit about workers, you sound like you've never worked a day in your life. You want us to get fucked by foreign slave markets on goods, destroying our industries like it's been doing for 30 years, and import foreigners to lower wages further. You are just a fool masquerading as a worker.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 12:21:37 2017 No.9304950
File: 43 KB, 370x500, rorts.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9302137
>>9302143
>If you want to know what the common sense of the bookish will be like fifty years from now, read the philosophers currently being attacked as ‘irrationalist’. Then discount the constructive part of what they are saying. Concentrate on the negative things, the criticisms they make of the tradition. That dismissal of the common sense of the past will be the enduring achievement of the long-dead ‘irrationalist’. His or her suggestions about what to do next will look merely quaint, but the criticisms of his or her predecessors will seem obvious.

>For example, everybody has doubts about the superman and the Oedipus complex, but nobody wants to revive the moral psychology which Nietzsche and Freud found in place. Everybody has doubts that truth is just ‘what works’, but nobody (well, almost nobody) wants to revive the ‘copy theory of ideas’ which James and Dewey criticised. Fifty years from now, nobody will want to listen to the Voice of Being, or to deconstruct texts, but nobody will take seriously the ways of distinguishing between science, philosophy and art which Heidegger and Derrida criticise. Nowadays both men look like eccentrics, an impression they do their best to encourage. Their writings are filled with explanations of how very marginal, how very different and unlike all other philosophers they are. But in time they will be seen as central to the philosophical tradition, as having overcome certain ways of thinking which were ‘mythic’ or ‘self-deceptive’ or ‘culture-bound’ (or whatever near-synonym of ‘irrational’ is then in fashion). ‘Reason’ is always being redefined in order to accommodate the irrationalists of the preceding generation.

Rorty is so right about everything.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 12:22:54 2017 No.9304960

>>9304902
don't make stupid, exaggerated claims if you don't want to be made fun of.

already posted why citation is sketchy. if history isn't good enough then bad census data isn't either.

middle class telling working class he is anti worker and hasn't worked a day in his life. lol, typical. I'm not the one sneering and belittling people for being forced into bad jobs, thats you, that's anti worker.

I've already addressed this claim three times. you keep repeated yourself but it still doesn't make it true. the fact you think these industries have been weakening for 30 years just proves how unengaged you are. lol.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 12:24:43 2017 No.9304967 >>9302065 Foucault was actually a neoliberal Hayek fanboy who disliked Marxism and identity politics. Blame the American academics who made a carrer out of misinterpreting his ideas

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 12:31:03 2017 No.9304999

>>9304960
>don't make stupid, exaggerated claims if you don't want to be made fun of.
It is quite true. One never really stops working on a farm if you live on the property. Obviously you sleep, but that is always interrupted,more like a break than knocking off.
>already posted why citation is sketchy. if history isn't good enough then bad census data isn't either.
Not really, you made a vague claim not addressing it directly
>middle class telling working class he is anti worker and hasn't worked a day in his life. lol, typical. I'm not the one sneering and belittling people for being forced into bad jobs, thats you, that's anti worker.
Nobody forced your grandfather to work such a useless job. I know there were recruiters picking up men to be cattlemen on the mainland, miners and timbermen too, no doubt. You should have left the overcrowded area, you had the opportunity. It's not anti-worker to tell you to get a clue, dumbfuck.
>I've already addressed this claim three times. you keep repeated yourself but it still doesn't make it true. the fact you think these industries have been weakening for 30 years just proves how unengaged you are. lol.
Forestry, dead. Mining, dead. Manufacturing, dead. Farming, dying. Energy, dead. That's what has happened in Tasmania. All the industries are dead or dying. What industries are stronger now?

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 12:38:31 2017 No.9305031

>>9304999
yeah, so farmers don't work 24 hours a day.

it's not vague. in 1910 the census was collected by state, not nationally. it wasn't until 1954 that we start to collect the kind of data we have today.

yes, it's always the workers fault. that's not anti-worker at all. lol.

commerce, computing, health care, social work, service and retail etc. but that's not my point. worker rights weren't weakened until Keating and Howard and the bubble didn't burst on global neoliberal policies until 2008. that's not 30yrs ago. again, you think Tasmania, a resource rich area, is the same as the rest of the country. where the majority lives.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 12:44:35 2017 No.9305062

>>9305031
>yeah, so farmers don't work 24 hours a day.
Are you seriously retarded or just very stupid?
>yes, it's always the workers fault. that's not anti-worker at all. lol.
Should the worker just sit there,in a box, and take it? No. It's everyone's fault for overcrowding an area.
>commerce, computing, health care, social work, service and retail etc.
Secondary industries after computing. Nothing for the workers there.
>again, you think Tasmania, a resource rich area, is the same as the rest of the country. where the majority lives.
I'm using what is relevant to me. I've never been to the mainland. You act like all parts of the mainland are equal.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 12:48:54 2017 No.9305082

>>9305062
says the guy who thinks farmers literally work 24hrs.

no, it's not everyone else's fault. times were hard. I'm not the one making moral arguments on what constitutes a real job and placing the blame of the workers. that's you.

oh well, that's settled. I guess there's just an industry collapse and no one has a job. lol,

no, I don't act like their equal, I act like the three major cities on the eastern seaboard are comparable to each other because they are. comparable is not equal.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 12:57:18 2017 No.9305123

>>9305082
>says the guy who thinks farmers literally work 24hrs.
>literally
You really are dumb. No wonder you're a dole bludger.
>no, it's not everyone else's fault. times were hard. I'm not the one making moral arguments on what constitutes a real job and placing the blame of the workers. that's you.
You had many opportunities to work away and make money. There were plenty of jobs outside of your overpopulated city.
>oh well, that's settled. I guess there's just an industry collapse and no one has a job. lol,
Guess you don't even know what secondary industry means. lmao

Major cities are inherently flawed for workers, overcrowded and not enough jobs.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 13:02:23 2017 No.9305159

>>9305123
oh, now I'm on the dole lol.

yeah, that's why rural vic and nsw has the highest youth suicide rate in the country. because there are so many opportunities. no hopelessness out there at all.

lol. a secondary instr. is a synonym for manufacturing. the agrarian economy isn't becoming back. that ship sailed after the industrial revolution.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 13:06:02 2017 No.9305187

>>9305159
>yeah, that's why rural vic and nsw has the highest youth suicide rate in the country. because there are so many opportunities. no hopelessness out there at all.
In the early 20th century, you fucking spastic.

No it isn't. Google has failed you. It is used contemporaneously to describe industries arising from the needs presented by primary industries.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 13:13:30 2017 No.9305227 >>9305187 lol. sorry I didn't know you where back on blaming the workers. lol. yes, in other words they convert materials into products. i.e manufacturing. it's not my fault you conflate secondary and service industries.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 13:15:52 2017 No.9305246
File: 61 KB, 1205x881, 1335218647063.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>implying the philosophers themselves are the cause of post-modernism and not the fact that post-modernism itself isn't the fact of being for Western culture
>implying they aren't just pointing out how most people in the West view the world
>implying that the destruction of organized and cultural Christianity because of the First World War didn't cause post-modernist nihilism to take root
>implying people didn't replace their absolutist Christianity with authoritarian politics in order to counteract nihilism
>implying this didn't cause WW2
>implying

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 13:16:57 2017 No.9305254 >>9305227 If you sit and beg on the street when there are jobs available you don't deserve sympathy. Being a worker doesn't make you perfect, just look at your layabout grandfather.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 13:19:28 2017 No.9305274 >>9305254 lol layabout. so since you are anti-worker, stop using us as a shield for your backwards opinion.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 13:21:52 2017 No.9305292 >>9303571 he was talking about the stoics ya idiot, now go read the context

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 13:23:50 2017 No.9305307 >>9305274 Sitting in a box in an overcrowded city isn't working. It's sitting. Why complain about low wages in cities, due to overpopulation, and then say you want more foreigners colonising the country?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 13:26:59 2017 No.9305327 >>9305307 lol. moralising about what work is, you sure are a stalwart for the working class. I didn't complain about low wages. I complained that there was no retraining. without skills, you'll always earn less.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 13:28:01 2017 No.9305336 >>9305307 you were the one who also inferred it was due to overpopulation. again, not something I said.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 13:31:51 2017 No.9305361

>>9305327
So now you're blaming the workers for not having skills. How hypocritical. You're going to force them to get new skills because immigrants need jobs, too. What about housing? What about schools? Not worried you'll stretch resources too far just to accommodate some foreigners you have a strange love for? What worker would accept being forced into a new era to accommodate some foreigner?
>>9305336
It is, learn basic economics, you idiot.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 13:37:28 2017 No.9305392

>>9305361
no, I didn't say "workers deserve low wages because they won't reskill". that's your argument.

housing and schools have been cut steadily since Bob Hawke. I'd like to see more investment in them too.

what worker would accept being forced into a new area because the government sold the land their house is on to developers? answer: all of them. workers are forced around all the time. who is doing to forcing is not a concern when you're in that situation, where to go is. again, you know very little about working class life.

that's irrelevant. you said that I was complaining about overcrowding when I wasn't.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 13:39:04 2017 No.9305403 This thread is awful

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 13:44:56 2017 No.9305423

>>9305392
>no, I didn't say "workers deserve low wages because they won't reskill". that's your argument.
No, I said workers should be prepared to travel to take unskilled jobs if necessary.
>what worker would accept being forced into a new area because the government sold the land their house is on to developers? answer: all of them. workers are forced around all the time. who is doing to forcing is not a concern when you're in that situation, where to go is. again, you know very little about working class life.
You won't be a popular ruler if you force people to move to make room for your colonists. The government is already unpopular and is going to lose because they sell land to foreigners, the Chinese, something you enjoy, no doubt.
>that's irrelevant. you said that I was complaining about overcrowding when I wasn't.
No, learn to read. I said what you're complaining about is due to overpopulation.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 13:55:39 2017 No.9305490

>>9305423
yes, which is different from saying that reskilling should be available.

working class people are moved out by gentrification all the time. actually, I don't support that. I think land, natural resources, and health should be for the use of citizens. which is why i think mining companies should of paid into the development of the state they operate in, instead of profiting and then leaving the state in dire straits like what happened in W.A.

yes, I said you inferred it. meaning that if I complain about x I'm also complaining about y. which I wasn't.

anyway, it's been fun. I have to go to bed now because I actually work and gotta do the lunch/dinner rush today.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 14:00:38 2017 No.9305517

>>9305490
>yes, which is different from saying that reskilling should be available.
I didn't say it shouldn't be.
>working class people are moved out by gentrification all the time. actually, I don't support that. I think land, natural resources, and health should be for the use of citizens. which is why i think mining companies should of paid into the development of the state they operate in, instead of profiting and then leaving the state in dire straits like what happened in W.A.
So now you don't like open borders?
>yes, I said you inferred it. meaning that if I complain about x I'm also complaining about y. which I wasn't.
I don't care if you don't think you were, you were. Even if you're too stupid to realise it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 14:01:40 2017 No.9305525 >>9305490 >anyway, it's been fun. I have to go to bed now because I actually work and gotta do the lunch/dinner rush today. Oh, you work a softcock kitchen job. Why do you immigrant lovers never work in men's jobs?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 14:08:59 2017 No.9305558 >>9305490 You're not working class if you say luncheon and dinner, that's upper class pom shit. They're called dinner and tea.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 14:09:07 2017 No.9305559 >>9302065 Don't worry lads, I'll be bringing this abysmal chapter of philosophy to a close in short order. Postmodernism is over.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 14:25:41 2017 No.9305636 >>9302393 2deep4me bro. This literally reads like something straight from the post-modern essay generator.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 14:28:00 2017 No.9305648 >>9305636 The "postmodernists" as people call them wrote some of the most intellectually demanding material in human history, it's too deep for almost everyone.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 14:31:12 2017 No.9305665 File: 8 KB, 150x188, 1489552568473.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9305648

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 14:33:20 2017 No.9305673

>>9304109
>>Refugees are temporary
I'm not even agreeing with the above poster, nor do I support refugees, but you're retarded if you can't understand what the above anon was saying about refugees. He wasn't saying that the people migrating to Europe today are only going to be there temporarily. In fact he was literally saying the opposite - that they're here to stay. Regarding refugees, he was just saying that immigrants are permanent, whereas refugees are temporary (and hence that Europe is dealing with immigrants right now not refugees).

I sincerely hope that English is a second language of your's. If not your reading comprehension is truly shit.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 14:36:13 2017 No.9305688

>>9305665
Almost no one understands Derrida, for example. If someone tells you they read and understood him, you can always find someone else who has read him that will tell you that the first person misunderstood him and give you a different, correct interpretation. If this isn't evidence of extremely deep and complex material, what is?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 14:36:24 2017 No.9305690 >>9302778 antifa acts like fascists

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 14:37:33 2017 No.9305696 >>9304113 Then by definition there have been little actual refugees in history, and almost none of the current ones are refugees.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 14:37:37 2017 No.9305697 >>9303544 They are in every Muslim country.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 14:38:36 2017 No.9305706 >>9304113 fugg nevermind this post I made: >>9305696 I am tard

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 14:57:47 2017 No.9305798 >>9305688 It doesn't matter if they disagree, because Derrida's work isn't falsifiable. It can mean whatever you want.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 14:59:13 2017 No.9305803 >>9302502 Nice to see you read Kapital but haven't realised it's 2017

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 15:01:23 2017 No.9305812 >>9305798 >It doesn't matter if they disagree, because Derrida's work isn't falsifiable. It can mean whatever you want. Who is even qualified to asses its falsifiability if no one understands it? Besides, it's not a science book.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 15:04:01 2017 No.9305822 >>9305798 >It doesn't matter if they disagree, because Derrida's work isn't falsifiable It's not science

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 15:05:13 2017 No.9305827 >>9302183 I know nobody expects to hear these words spoken on 4chan... but you really need to grow up. But... sigh... at least you guys are trying to talk literature. I wish I could participate, but I find politics tiresome.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 15:06:21 2017 No.9305832 >>9305822 >>9305812 That's why it can be whatever you want. It's up to interpretation.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 15:10:21 2017 No.9305842

>>9305832
All philosophy books are "up to interpretation" but describing that as meaning "whatever you want" is misleading. You still have to engage with the text; consider its arguments, form your own opinions etc. You can argue for and against interpretations.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 15:14:21 2017 No.9305852 >>9305842 It doesn't matter in the end, it's not like Derrida has an answer to string theory or something.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 15:22:27 2017 No.9305887 >>9305525 Based aussie vs pleb Aussie with no understanding of economics or reading comprehension. Absolute massacre.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 15:23:24 2017 No.9305892 >>9305887 Who is who? Just looks like shitposting to me.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 15:45:54 2017 No.9306014 >>9302113 trendy, entitled pseuds?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 15:55:34 2017 No.9306066 >>9305892 The guy citing statistics from 1920 for contemporary issues is not the sharpest tool in the shed

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 16:44:54 2017 No.9306209 >this brainlet garbage OP and article get +200 replies yeah we are going to end up.like tv soon

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 16:46:04 2017 No.9306218 >>9306209 It's too late. I warned you people.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 20:01:00 2017 No.9306994 >>9302401 thought i was the only one that saw it Traditionalism + Situationsm + Hyperreality meme-hacking

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 20:03:50 2017 No.9306998 File: 169 KB, 487x465, Baudrillard Heresy Reality.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9302113 Baudrillard would agree with you

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 20:04:09 2017 No.9307000 >>9304613 >communitarian >identitarian Brainlet here, but are these real terms?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 20:07:16 2017 No.9307009 >>9306998 I was just reading about Hyperreality today. Seems cool. Can I just jump into Simulacra and Simulation?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 20:07:46 2017 No.9307013 >>9303554 you've really dramatically torn that phrase out of the context of foucault's entire corpus, which is almost always documentarian and almost never politicizing or endorsing.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 20:09:05 2017 No.9307018 >>9307000 ye

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 20:15:18 2017 No.9307028

>>9303857

Fredric Jameson frequently engages polemics with the post-structuralist set (Derrida, Deleuze, Foucault) because the politics of difference does not lead to politics at all. The most radical intersectionality makes praxis for emancipatory political groups impossible to articulate, because in Derrida's language, the subject who determines the course of action can never "simply" be a class subject, but is always in fact /deferred/ to ever more rarefied loci of identity, until you loop back around and just end up with bourgeois individualism. now, to be fair, a Marxism that is not also a feminism, an anti-racisim, a queer politics, etc, is in my estimation no Marxism at all—but historically it has proven much easier for these groups to understand the peculiarity of their oppression as the impetus for a "i've got mine" model of emancipation that is totally accommodated by the needs of an expanding market, and far more difficult for these groups to understand their oppression as the requirement of capitalism for an exploited class. to demand the primacy of class, in other words, is not to reduce racism to class politics, but rather to show the way in which exploitation gets articulated through race, and through the common term, exploitation, work toward a politics that takes it as a common threat to freedom.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 20:19:50 2017 No.9307044

>>9304377

those goals are not mutually exclusive, but it must be said that capitalism, and specifically, money and the labor market, are structured to make wage increases only short-run meaningful. this isn't even a marxist analysis: this is simple microeconomical supply and demand.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 20:21:54 2017 No.9307051 >>9305832 Strong misreadings over weak ones, bitch.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 20:23:07 2017 No.9307056 >>9307051 Subjectivity, wak ass beach ass muh fuggin nuggah ass

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 20:30:43 2017 No.9307078

>>9307028
That's actually pretty interesting, but it's why I take Rorty's view that Derrida is a great read for one's private benefit but essentially politically useless. I think the main virtue he does provides re political movements is a vigilance towards fanaticism. A bit of skepticism and stoicism is always good, and doesn't at all necessarily entail paralysis.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 20:32:01 2017 No.9307083 >>9307056 Nice.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 20:38:57 2017 No.9307106
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>>9307009
Yeah, go for it. It isn't a particularly long book, just a collection of essays.

Some grounding in philosophy will probably help (plato's cave, Kant, semiotics) but it isn't mandatory.

The Perfect Crime is a longer form version of Simulations, but I wouldn't start with it.

My favorite book by Baudrillard is "The Transparency of Evil: Essays on Extreme Phenomenon". It won't drive into the main theory of the Simulacra, but it is a good grounding and intro to Baudrillard.

The excerpt I posted in the my last post is from Exiles of Dialogue >>9306998

Here is another bit I really like from "Impossible Exchange"

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 20:48:19 2017 No.9307131 >>9307106 Thanks. Quickly: Is Baudrillard judgemental about hyperreality? Does he write about it with an air of "This all sucks" or does he embrace it? Or neither?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 20:53:22 2017 No.9307150 >>9303857 M8 whats your opinion on esoteric traditionalism, theosophy, nordic paganism, race realism, ethno-nationalism, dysgenics, eugenics, socialism, anti-zionism, and the gnostic/alchemical view on sex?

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 20:57:13 2017 No.9307169

>>9307131
not him but he is severly blackpilled by it, he basically regards life as a sick game of an all powerful evil-genius psychotorturer, and advocates burning down all meaning from the earth to accelerate the entropy of liberating confusion

basically put your brain on a blender and kys or you are a deluded sheeple

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 20:57:17 2017 No.9307170
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>>9307131
he's a bit of a nihilist. He certainly doesn't yearn for an earlier era. He does portray society in a pretty negative light, but takes a bit of perverse pleasure in it.

here is a nice bit about Baggage Claims and Death. I think this is in "Cool Memories"

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 21:00:50 2017 No.9307186

>>9307169 >>9307131
woah, I don't think that's an accurate description of Baudrillard at all.

If anything, he's a perverse libertine of sorts. He doesn't indulge in sex or drugs, but rather nihilistic theory.

He certainly doesn't believe in an "evil-genius psycho torturer" along the lines of Roko's Basilisk or something like that. Nor is he an accelerationist type, as suggested by "burning down all meaning from the earth to accelerate the entropy of liberating confusion". Baudrillard thinks that liberation is essentially complete, that we are "After the Orgy"

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 21:09:29 2017 No.9307236

>>9307169
>>9307186
I really want to highlight that Baudrillard is NOT an accelerationist like Nick Land. For Baudrillard, the doomsday already happened, we are "After the Orgy".

This is the opening from "The Transparency of Evil: Essays on Extreme Phenomenon" and specifically the first chapter/essay "After the Orgy". It should give you an idea of what Baudrillard is about.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 21:10:32 2017 No.9307241 File: 540 KB, 1524x872, AFTER THE ORGY.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9307236 fuck me, forgot the image

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 21:11:17 2017 No.9307246

>>9307169
>>9307170
>>9307186
>>9307236
>>9307241
Cool cool, this is all golden, as are those quotes.
My background is in philosophy but I'm direly underread in critical theory. It's hard to find people I enjoy. Adorno is a whiner, I like him best when he talks about Beckett. Benjamin was pretty good. Habermas is fucking boring.
I'll def pick up some Boud stuff. I have my eye on Jameson too.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 21:14:31 2017 No.9307258 >>9307246 Yeah, I'd say Baudrillard is a bit of an outsider to critical theory/continental philosophy. He doesn't fit in neatly with people like Foucault, Deleuze, Derrida, Lyotard, but he's of that generation.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 21:28:49 2017 No.9307325
File: 47 KB, 510x787, 9781844672035-frontcover-01f8c32f9100ea4037ae5622d10e4b9b.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9307186
No, man he really does. In the book in pic related, he basically describes reality as a cruel torture of some sort of demiurge figure. Also found this on that subject:

"Hell of simulation, which is no longer one of torture, but of subtle, maleficent, elusive twisting of meaning...”

Then, on regards of the accelerating confusion part, im trying to find the damn quote, i don't have the book on me now, i read it many years ago and i remember that part because the book blackpilled me so much that i found light in that paragraph and i wrote it down and had it stuck on the wall for some years, it was my mantra of action at some point. Basically called for the destruction of meaning, for a culture focused on subverting absolutely every fucking sign.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 21:30:05 2017 No.9307330 >>9307258 I wouldn't say an outsider, i find him very gnostic

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 21:32:22 2017 No.9307339 >>9307330 That's pretty outside bro (nowadays)

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 21:36:00 2017 No.9307350 File: 33 KB, 500x280, literally_the_olympics.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9307339

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 21:37:32 2017 No.9307356 File: 105 KB, 568x320, leadolympics.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9307339 .

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 21:44:37 2017 No.9307388 >>9306998 Pathetic. Agnostic subjectivism is THE ideology of the bourgeois reactionary, it's not revolutionary at all.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 21:49:40 2017 No.9307401 >>9307325 I guess the reason I'm disputing your earlier post, is that he doesn't seem to advocate much of anything. The point of no-return has passed.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 21:55:46 2017 No.9307421 >>9302080 Have you actually been to a University recently.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 22:05:22 2017 No.9307470 >>9302427 The actual case is exactly, and one-hundred percent the diametric opposite of what you believe it to be. And you still believe yourself to be right, to be sensible, to be speaking reason.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 22:05:28 2017 No.9307472 >>9302065 I didn't read the thread, but I will say that I hate a lot of what is generally considered PoMo.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 22:07:32 2017 No.9307481

>>9302778
>some conspiracy nuts are denying the holocaust
>instead of allowing them to spread their nonsense and allowing a public discourse in which people make up their own minds about what's true to take place, let's dictate what opinions they are allowed to voice
>surely people won't be antagonized by this
>surely they won't put up a public face of tolerance while the lies they are being told fester in their hearts
>wait, where are all these holocaust deniers coming from? I thought that was just a meme

The Antifa mentality enables fascism while simultaneously allowing people to rationalize hatred toward anyone who is stigmatized as a Nazi, creating a system of power dynamics that makes public discourse impossible.

If you believe that it is justified to assault people (Yes, Nazis are people and it's insane that for simply acknowledging their humanity I would be considered a Nazi sympathizer by most of Antifa. You don't need to sympathize with someone's cause to recognize that they have the same rights you do.) while they're having public meetings and sputtering nonsense you are the real threat to democracy.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 22:32:22 2017 No.9307593 >>9307481 This is my first post in the thread. I generally agree with your sentiments. What certain groups don't realize is how some actions contribute to the cyclical resurgence of largely detrimental forces like populism in the world.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 22:37:43 2017 No.9307603 >>9302065 >explained so right wingers are too stupid to read philosophy books so they need some literallywho spastic libertarian to explain it in baby talk really gets the noggin ticking

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 22:39:31 2017 No.9307606 >>9307481 >hey guys, the nazis are the REAL oppressed! t. Man about to be sent to gas chamber by nazis god centrists are the biggest cucks around

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 22:43:37 2017 No.9307619 >>9307606 >that greentext What are you talking about? Nowhere does that guy talk about Nazis being the true oppressed group, or god. Literally what the fuck are you smoking? Meme density to actual content in your post is awfully high.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 22:44:47 2017 No.9307623 >>9307593 Do you think left-wing populism (Hugo Chávez, Peronism, Podemos, Syriza etc) is also a detrimental force in the world, or are you a disgusting hypocrite?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 22:46:23 2017 No.9307630 >>9305690 The bourgeoisie are the proletariat

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 22:47:20 2017 No.9307633 >>9306998 >reality shows communism sucks >therefore reality doesn't exists Why doesn't everyone realizes this is the psychology behind post-modernism? It's just a bunch of commies inventing excuses to not answer for the crimes of the Soviet communism.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 22:48:03 2017 No.9307637

>>9307593
I think they realize that their actions can have that effect. The problem is that they think they can keep the narrative stable if they silence the opposition thoroughly enough. And that's how fascism starts.

>>9307606
I'll go along with policies that you would consider "far left" or "far right" if I find the reasoning convincing. But you'll have to convince me. Non of this "lol someones feeling are being hurt pls gib your rights" or "muh traditions".
Participate in the public discourse or kindly fuck off.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 22:52:26 2017 No.9307652 >>9307623 Did I stutter? Populism is a detrimental force in the world. No left/right qualification necessary, though my specific definition of populism may not align fully with yours. Perhaps I should have said demagoguery for the sake of clarity.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 22:55:59 2017 No.9307662 >>9307637 I didn't say that they don't realize that it can, I said they don't realize that it does. "It could be dangerous, but isn't because I can control it" is a recipe for the self-deluding to undo the work of the strong.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 22:56:47 2017 No.9307665 >>9307652 Sorry, I just remember 2006 and left-wing intellectuals like Chantal Mouffe and Ernesto Laclau praising populist (and demagogue, by any standards) politicians in Latin America.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 23:19:36 2017 No.9307737

>>9307481
>If you believe that it is justified to assault people (Yes, Nazis are people and it's insane that for simply acknowledging their humanity

pretty dramatic leap from not worthy of assault to human. who told you that someone worthy of assault is not human? sounds like something a nazi might say of a jew, doesnt it? this is why humanism is bunk: at the highest order of abstraction, it makes fascists and nazis indistinguishable from exploited groups exercising self defense by repelling people who want to destroy them. class struggle and genocide are not the same, and it is only a cuckholded center-liberal discourse grasping at straws for relevance to a right insensitive to them and left tired of them that could normalize nazism on the grounds that "they have a right to their opinion too." of course they do: and the people whom their speech targets for destruction are therefore even more justified using violence to prevent that destruction.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 23:20:51 2017 No.9307741 >>9307737 especially, i should add, in an environment where state powers, which one might expected would prevent such destruction, cannot be counted on to do that.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 23:21:55 2017 No.9307745 >>9307737 have you talked to the people on /pol/? they don't want to kill every non-white, they just don't think the west needs to take in every third worlder

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 23:24:35 2017 No.9307756

>>9307737
Nigga, denying people their rights and believing that that is justified shows exactly what you see them as: A holocaust waiting to happen. Something that needs to be prevented by any means necessary. That's dehumanization right there. Are you blind?

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 23:25:31 2017 No.9307760

>>9302427
Extremely corrupt woman with a long history of lying and governmental failures. Only real accomplishments were positions gained through nepotism. Was under FBI investigation, was demonstrably guilty of crime according to FBI director.

Vs

Incredibly successful, charismatic, businessman who literally wrote the book on negotiation.

Americans are so dumb.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 23:29:26 2017 No.9307779 File: 6 KB, 178x178, lmao.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9307737 >class struggle and genocide are not the same Naziism doesn't start with genocide either, commie scum. We're done here.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 23:30:32 2017 No.9307785

>>9302484
You use 'jerbs' as if jobs are a trivial thing only inbred hicks would care about. Maybe in Europe where everyone's a welfare queen that tries to game the system as much as possible, because their culture lacks any moral fortitude, but here we work for a living.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 23:36:54 2017 No.9307799

>>9307756

the whole point is that this category "human" and its negation "dehumanization" are just rhetorical tropes that are called on to pen up class struggle, prevent political action, and cut off revolutionary processes by subordinating them to The Law. punching nazis is fucking good, and should be done whenever possible.

>>9307779

>famine and natural disaster are genocide
>concentration camps and gas chambers arent

back to the heritage foundation with you

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 23:40:32 2017 No.9307816 >>9307799 who decides who is "nazi" and who is not? therefore, who it is "good" to punch, and who it is not good to punch? the same problem plagues all the Earth's petty ideologies that seek to eliminate problem groups.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 23:45:36 2017 No.9307834

>>9307799
>punching nazis is fucking good, and should be done whenever possible
No. That is idiocy, or you are using "whenever possible" in such a misleadingly vague way as to be meaningless.

Idiocy because to resist is not always to attack with direct physical force and misleading because if you don't mean it in an absolute sense why muddy discussion of policy with hyperbole?

>>9307816
Eliminating a group is so inferior to overcoming that group. Conflating one for the other is, among other sins, a lack of imagination.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 23:50:47 2017 No.9307852

>>9307816
>who decides who is "nazi" and who is not?

i think that wearing a swastika or loudly proclaiming the necessity of restoring the white ethno-state might be a useful predictor of being a nazi.

>>9307834
>No. That is idiocy

i hate to say it, but not an argument. you're just calling me idiotic as though it were self-evident that violence against the openly genocidal is not always a good.

let me put it in explicitly kantian, ethical terms: one can categorically punch nazis. human society is sustainable if everyone always punched every nazi.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 23:55:23 2017 No.9307872

>>9307852
supporting a "white ethno-state" seems a poor predictor of Nazism. after all, the separation of nationalism from ethnicity is startlingly recent and by and large a western phenomena, and seems to be a regression from the enlightenment evolution of empires/kingdoms -> self-ruled nations.

Anonymous Wed Mar 29 00:00:14 2017 No.9307896

>>9307872

it's sort of sad to see your banner-waving non-violence reduced to quibbling over the history of ethno-nationalist movements. but i hate to inform you that your (admittedly cute) attempt to historicize only confirms my criteria, because the historical coincidence of ethnic identity with nationalism, especially among the white nations (you'll notice that i only pin down "white" ethno-statists) actually finds its high-water mark in the nazis. so actually, your comment makes my work as a nazi-identifier-and-puncher even easier.

Anonymous Wed Mar 29 00:01:30 2017 No.9307903

>>9307872
>>9307896

not to mention that you cant even seem to rely on plain-old pacifism: you must think violence pursuant to politics is in fact justified if you instead have to resort to the difficulty of defining a nazi in order to protect nazis from violence.

Anonymous Wed Mar 29 00:02:54 2017 No.9307910

>>9307872
>>9307896
>>9307903

it's almost as though the difference here is irreducible except in violence. it's almost as though we are expressing two different sides of some kind of contradiction. maybe that contradiction is objective? could it be class struggle?

Anonymous Wed Mar 29 00:06:46 2017 No.9307927

>>9307896
>>9307903
>>9307910
but my dear anon, you would be punching anti-fascists by those criteria too. think of Churchill, or Spengler, or the German "conservative revolutionaries" who worked in the resistance against the fascists. or the zionists killed in droves by Hitler's goons.

the question is, what is it about Nazis that makes punching them an essentially good act?

Anonymous Wed Mar 29 00:13:26 2017 No.9307956

>>9307927

1. i dont exactly see how punching any of those people follows from my criteria. because even allowing the historical objections you raise, i still have the swastika clause to fall back on in case of uncertainty.

2. as to "essentially a good act," all i can say is that when i referred to kant, the emphasis was more on "terms" than on "ethical." you're right: there is nothing intrinsically good about it. but it is a political act that advances class struggle by agitating class relations.

Anonymous Wed Mar 29 00:16:52 2017 No.9307970

>>9307956
I do not think it is very effective. Nazis and police are proletarian, as Pasolini had brought up, whereas the students advocating violence against them are puffed up and bourgeois. you would be agitating class relations and encouraging a form of class consciousness, but in a perverse form, producing a false consciousness.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 00:19:36 2017 No.9307979 >>9307852 >not an argument I literally explained why it was idiocy. If you can't string two sentences together to extract meaning then I'm not beholden to fix your shortcomings.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 00:20:45 2017 No.9307982 >>9307852 >kantian ethics There's your problem.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 00:25:45 2017 No.9307996 >>9306998 yeah, it's so brave to deny the existence of reality this guy at least writes clearly but he's such a dumbass

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 00:53:03 2017 No.9308087 >>9307872 Passively supporting the pre-existence of a "white ethno-state" and actively pushing the necessity of the "restoration" of such are radically different propositions.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 00:55:25 2017 No.9308098 >>9307979 there is literally nothing wrong with white nationalism are you going to go to south korea and punch the people they're because they have a korean ethno-state?

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 00:59:22 2017 No.9308107 >>9308098 I was the one saying that "always punch Nazis" was idiocy. Why are you trying to tell me that there is nothing wrong with white nationalism? Your whole comportment is a disassociated mess of misunderstandings and misplaced blame.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 01:06:16 2017 No.9308130 >>9308107 >disassociated mess of misunderstandings and misplaced blame Sounds like white nationalism to me.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 01:11:26 2017 No.9308146 >>9308098 He is a self hating white leftard.

Anonymous Wed Mar 29 01:13:09 2017 No.9308153

>>9308107
>Why are you trying to tell me that there is nothing wrong with white nationalism?

because i was doing some other stuff and didn't pay attention to which post i was clicking on

>Your whole comportment is a disassociated mess of misunderstandings and misplaced blame.

damn, you really got me!

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 01:15:46 2017 No.9308157 >>9308146 Three strikes and you're out.

Anonymous Wed Mar 29 01:23:16 2017 No.9308176

>>9307785
on some level, voting for the destruction of a number of programs that both you and many less fortunate than you benefit from, for the destruction of environmental standards, gutting American science, etc. has to be considered a bit irresponsible just so you can feel Dignified by working an assembly line job. What about trying to strengthen labor unions so you can earn a decent wage? Wait, many of these same people voted for Reagan, union-buster in chief.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 01:47:56 2017 No.9308235 >>9308153 You're a real gem, you know that?

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 01:55:07 2017 No.9308257 >>9305688 >If this isn't evidence of extremely deep and complex material lmao your faith is would stand out in africa

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 02:26:39 2017 No.9308316 >>9303544 Neither are Muslims in the global sense. Christians are more oppressed in Muslim countries than Muslims are in western countries

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 02:37:03 2017 No.9308340 >>9303916 Imported labor from Eastern Europe does this in my country (Norway), while asylum seekers don't work and live off of the welfare system, using tax payers money to hang out at cafes and kebabshops in their fake armani clothes all day

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 02:49:51 2017 No.9308363 >>9303916 Only if they aren't brought into the unions. Now why wouldn't the unions want solidarity from immigrant workers? Maybe because of the idea drummed in that immigrants are bad for existing workers.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 05:43:41 2017 No.9308807 >>9307028 Good post

Anonymous Wed Mar 29 07:51:16 2017 No.9309016

>>9307799
>putting people who are part of x ethnic minority and/or political opponents of your movement into death camps and is genocide
>putting people who are part of x class minority and/or political opponents of your movements into "labor" camps and actively working them to death isn't
>look, there is no ¨death¨ in the name :^)

also
>you are just trying to stop me from destroying the structures that make it possible for us to openly state our views and debate them instead of hitting eachother with sticks and doing what the stronger decides because you don't understand that it will ultimately lead us to utopia
spooked beyond belief

Anonymous Wed Mar 29 10:24:48 2017 No.9309472

>>9309016

how cucked do you have to be to think total unionization and collective ownership of the means of production is a labor camp?

>im destroying the liberal state waaah

literally cucked into thinking capitalism grants you the privilege of speech

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 11:34:41 2017 No.9309675 >>9309472 >what is the red terror

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/lit/ - Literature