/lit/ - Literature

Well, this has been fun. Had some good discussion between the trolling and the vitriol.

Thanks for starting the thread, and let me know if you want to have any serious conversation on the topic again.

Best,

DM

> This isn't /r/ atheism you retarded faggot.

I wasn't the one who brought up religion. He did when he said his worldview was Catholicism. We were just having a civil discussion after that.

P.S. Sorry about your penis.

> I have. I find Russell boring and Hitchens obnoxious. I had my atheist phase in high school.

And I ended my Christian phase right after high school, after a trip to the holy land.

https://danielmiessler.com/writing/how_i_became_an_atheist/

Well, it appears we may be at an impasse. I wish you good luck, man.

> And you aren't cute.

Ha! True story.

But I don't think he's trolling. I think he's for real.

You're a bright guy.

I implore you to read some Russell and Hitchens.

I only tell you this because you seem quite smart. Smart enough to find the most interesting part of the free will debate very quickly.

If you can turn that light inward I think you'll be in good shape.

Now, answer me this:

The Christian faith is based on Jesus' sacrifice, right? Well how does that work if he isn't dead?

He was immortal before he came to earth. He's still immortal now. He didn't die. He actually couldn't die, since he is part of the trinity.

And yet the entire doctrine is based on his sacrifice.

Does that make any sense to you?

This is going to take us off of free will, but I'm going to offer something to you that might help you.

It's going to be offensive, so I apologize for that.

Would you like to hear it?

> M8, enough with the fucking satire.

I feel you. But have you considered the possibility that he's serious? He might actually believe it.

> You're getting trolled, dude.

I don't know. I think he might be a legitimate Catholic picking a fight, which is ok.

> Catholicism is the one true faith, free will exists, and Jesus Christ is the Savior of mankind.

Is this the smart guy I've been arguing with above who had good counterpoints about my argument?

Or someone else?

Tell me it's not him.

> You think the premises follow from the conclusion makes the argument true?

I can't argue the free will point and the afterlife point all here in this thread. What part of meaning not existing are you objecting to?

In other words, what objective meaning do you think exists in the universe?

Suicide is not hard when you own a handgun. So staying around isn't being a bitch, giving up and pulling the trigger is.

Multiple worlds? I assumed you were keeping up. I'm talking about the distinction between realizing that there is no objective meaning, and embracing the illusion of our regular lives where meaning seems to exist.

Those are the two "worlds".

Hey, I've got an idea. Tell us what you think. You've obviously got it figured out.

Let's hear it.

What would a sound argument look like?

I think not having free will in a world with no afterlife pretty much does it.

You guys are focusing on the right thing: the contradiction between believing meaning is an illusion and also, simultaneously, caring about things.

Let me try to explain.

1. I believe meaning is an illusion, that free will is an illusion, and that this is fact
2. I am stuck being a human and I cannot walk around day-to-day in the mindset of #1. It's just not possible for me
3. So I HAVE to embrace the illusion. The alternatives are what Camus talked about: suicide or delusion.
4. I will NOT sacrifice my intellectual integrity by pretending I didn't notice free will and meaning are illusions
5. I will not give up and embrace religion or suicide
6. Therefore my only option is to live in both worlds and pivot back and forth. I'm never creating anything in the illusion that is real, but I behave as if it is because that's all we can do as humans stuck in this context.

> In other words, if I apply your reasoning about ice cream to free will, I find that there seems to be a contradiction between what you say about free will and what you say about ice cream. Why lie to myself about the meaning and purpose of ice cream if lying to myself about free will is stupid?

Because one is positive and one is negative.

Hatred requires the belief that people could have done otherwise. Compassion and love do not.

So I can just enjoy ice cream and friendship and romance and all those things without thinking about the ultimate causes of those things.

Hatred, and blame, and retribution--those all require the belief that the perpetrator could have done differently.

Insulting guy:

List your accomplishments, and I'll list mine. We'll take a poll afterwards on which one of us should talk less. : )

Your last comments confuse me.

I think I have maximum empathy and maximum forgiveness precisely because I think people doing bad things are ultimately not their fault.

Now, if someone punches me in the face, I'm still going to react as if they did have free will.

That's where the contradiction is. Like I said. I live within the illusion most of the time. But when I'm pensive, and trying to figure out how to maximize happiness and reduce suffering, I pivot back to the truth, which is that we're a bunch of atoms bumping into each other.

This is not sad to me.

Knowing a great movie or play is ending, doesn't make the experience any worse. Experiences are fleeting, and that's ok. It's not much different than believing in free will but not an afterlife, right?

If you believe in free will, but you don't believe in an afterlife, then it'd still be all for nothing. Why not freak out about that as well?

The answer is that neither is a problem. We can embrace our experiences within the illusion while still knowing the truth and live better for it.

Meaning is an illusory framework that humans construct to increase their happiness and reduce their suffering.

(that's off the cuff, so apologies if it's not great)

What I'm advocating is much like what Camus did.

Keep one foot in each world. Never deny the truth of our existence, but embrace what is good in this life to the fullest.

Absolutely not.

I spend a lot of time inside the illusion. I simply keep in the back of my mind, for when I need it, the facts of our existence.

It helps with compassion for others to realize that they could not have done otherwise.

If you enjoy friendship and ice cream, then it's not pointless. Just because something ends doesn't make it worthless.

The whole point of Absurdism is NOT lying to yourself.

I'm absolutely not advocating nihilism.

https://danielmiessler.com/blog/difference-existentialism-nihilism-absurdism/

Out of curiosity, is this the same Anon that I was just talking to, or someone different now trying to insult me?

It's fine either way, just wondering.