/lit/ - Literature

>>4671868
>why wouldn't god just make everyone eternally happy and good and free and with him?

Sin.

Sin can arise with free will, and the knowledge of good&evil.
I would remind you of Lucifer.
Ezekiel 28:15
"Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."
In my opinion. God has allowed us the choice of this knowledge, but specifically commanded us not have it.
Genesis 2:17
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Man has chose to disobey the command of God.
Now we are learning of good&evil first hand.

>>4671872
>why doesn't he remove evil now then
Would you be saved if he did?

>>4671875
His foreknowledge has no bearing on your choices.
I now know that The Seattle Seahawks have won the Superbowl, does my knowledge of this force them to win?
God can see all things, this is true, but this does not mean that he has forced your choices.
Knowing an outcome is not the same as causing it.

>>4671892
God has commanded thou shalt not. see Exodus 20
People have done these things.
Obviously we are free to disobey him.

I shall have to make replies at a later time.
Peace be with you.

>>4671837
God has given me the choice.

You cannot have true love if you have not free will.
God wants to love, and to be loved.
If He is to have love, He must first have free beings, and not robots.
You must choose to love him, else it is not love.

It seems to me you have made your choice not to.
It is your choice to make.
God loves you regardless your feelings towards him.
He will save you if you let him.

>>4671842
Perhaps you should read again the post you are replying.
PS
Matthew 7:7
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:"
Luke 11:9
"And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you."
Again I say. If you have seen no evidence it is your lack of looking.

>>4671855
>All of this has already been debunked a million times
You have disproven nothing in your statement.
If you would have me believe different, you will need to show me the error.
Believe what you will. I know the truth.

>>4671860
>as well as remove all evil.
I would remind you he intends to.
Have you not heard of his plan?

>>4671802
>Lack of empirical evidence
I have seen no lack of evidence.
If you have seen none. It is for your lack of looking for it.
http://www.godandscience.org/
http://creation.com/laws-of-information-1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyHWtQN4yLM

Romans 1:20
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
>so that they are without excuse.

The evidence is all around you.
Do not let yourself be blinded from the truth.


>the problem of evil
I admit this is a problem.
I would remind you God has a plan in place to overcome this problem.

>>4671818
>If God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent, there should be no evil, free will or not
How could I be free, if I could not disobey God?

You do not understand the meaning of freedom.

>>4671786
It is God who cannot have it both ways.
If He is to control you, then you are not free.
If you are to be free, then He cannot force you to obey His will.

The evil in the world is the result of the fall of man.
It is no doubt the result of Lucifer's will, and the will of men. It is not the will of God.

>>4671788
What flaws do you speak of?
Tell me where is my error?

>>4670309
Would you presume to know the hearts on those slain?
The way I understand things: Children are automatically saved.
If this is the case. Who is to say that they would not grow to hate God, and to deny him, and teach others the same?
Perhaps this lesson can serve both us, and them. Perhaps this was the only way to save those souls.
I would also say. The lesson I have learned from this act. Be careful what you speak, for the power of life and death lies with the tongue.
Proverbs 18:21 - Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.


>>4670313
>Sounds fine to me, just dont pretend that god is doing a newborn a favor when it is born with extreme spinabifida
Sounds fine to me, just don't pretend that God has caused this to be.

>>4670368
>God is undefined.
God has defined Himself, in both his word, and also His son Jesus Christ.
Yahweh is Salvation.

>>4671472
>deluding yourself that you religion is somehow special and better than other active or dead religions
I have no delusions. The one true God is a living God. He is the creator of all things.
His kingdom shall have no end.

>deluding yourself that humans are anything more than the most sophisticated of nature's meat robots
Robots have no emotion.
Do you also lack it?
I am no robot. I have the love of God inside me.
How is it that an unguided force has created the "most sophisticated"?
We cannot ourselves on purpose create any better, yet you believe this has happened with no design.
DNA is your proof of intelligence behind our existence.
“DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created.” - Bill Gates, The Road Ahead

>>4670149
Though your previous posts I find quite agreeable, I must admit I disagree strongly with the following.

>Those of us who wish to escape this worldly prison, to free ourselves from Pharaoh, need our own version of Moses to be our intermediary with God, to translate His will for us.
Those of us who wish to escape need God's gift of salvation. It was made available through His son The Christ Jesus.
It is He who can allow us to be free of our sins. No other can save you, neither can you save yourself.

>need our own version of Moses to be our intermediary with God
We have an intermediary with God in His son Jesus.
Furthermore his sacrifice has left us reconciled to God, that we might freely ask his forgiveness.
I can directly pray to God, for it is written.
Matthew 6:9 - After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

>to translate His will for us.
The Lord Jesus has done this too.
Have you not heard of his teachings?

I find the message to be quite clear.
Deuteronomy 6:5, Matthew 22:37
"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."
Mark 12:31,Matthew 22:39
"Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
If you would like to read it again. Luke 10:27
What troubles you in this translation? What have I failed to understand?
Men seem to make this more difficult, for it is a hard thing to love them that use you.
Only God can help you learn to love as He.

>Those who believe in God but attempt to serve Him on their own terms, without a leader, are deceiving themselves.
Any man is capable of being deceived.
Is not any man also capable of knowing the truth?
Are we not all made in the image of God?
I would remind you that The Kingdom of God is within you.
Luke 17:21 - Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


>We need someone to teach us how we can best serve God.
I would remind you of your own words.
>Christ is our leader
As our leader he is also our teacher, our master, and Lord.
Do you seek the knowledge of God, or the idolatry of men?
I say again. Only God can help you, you should seek your help from Him.

>Christ promised to help us
Indeed, and he shall, if you ask it of him.
If you should seek the help of Christ, why would you ask it of men?

Jesus came teaching, and left with the order to teach. If we are to be more like him, would we not do likewise?
The church often says, we know the truth, come to us. The Lord has said "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free".
The church that wants you to come to them, has got it backwards. We are to go out and teach others of the truth.
This fact I would think you should agree. Is it not your intentions to tell men of the truth?

>>4651156
1. Yes I am a Christian.
2-1.Prayerfully. I take the literal text as literal, the parables as parables, and pray for guidance as to the meanings.
2-2.I accept the Bible as inerrant. I try to follow the teachings as best I can, but I realize that I am not perfect. I pray for forgiveness.
3. A lot of Christians preach about hell, when they should be preaching the Gospel. They also fail to get the beam out of their own eye, before they try to help others. i.e. Hypocrites

>>4654062
I would have to disagree.
I find the evidence to be overwhelming.
Science has quite recently discovered that The Big Bang has happened.
That is our entire universe just popped into existence from nothing. I see this as very strong evidence for God.
Stephen Hawking has said. "Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing."
It would appear he believes the cause of the universe is.
1. Physical law. i.e. Gravity has caused this to be. (Law does not create)
2.The universe has created its self. (Something cannot be the cause of its self)
3.Nothing has caused the universe.(Everything has come from nothing)
Never before have I seen a triple self contradictory sentence. Bravo. This goes to show just how far some will go to deny God.
If you would like to see some of the evidence for God, I would suggest you start looking for it. A good place to find some is.
http://www.godandscience.org/
You could also read the book (I don't have enough faith to be an atheist) or watch the following.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyHWtQN4yLM

>>4654174
You do not have to be unsure. Perhaps you have not heard the Gospel message.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfXybggH4Qo

>>4654183
The problem of evil.
God told man don't eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Man disobeyed God's command, and ate of the tree.
We are now learning first hand about good and evil.
Do not blame God for man's choice.

The problem is sin can arise with free will, and the knowledge of.
As seen with Lucifer.
Ezekiel 28:15 (This verse is talking about Lucifer)
"Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

In my opinion God wanted us to have both, and also overcome sin. Since we are incapable of overcoming sin on our own.
God has conceived a plan so that we might be saved. He has done it for us, and offered salvation as a gift.
He has suffered in our place, so that we might have the knowledge, and have a way to overcome sin.(By having faith in Jesus)
If God had not wanted us to have the knowledge, he would not have put the tree in the garden.
However he could not force suffering on us, hence the command do not eat of this tree.
The fact that he knew we would disobey, is not the same as forcing it on us. He has allowed us the choice.

This is why man is above angels. God has provided a way for us to be sinners, and also be saved.
To my knowledge there is no such plan for the angels who choose to sin.

>>4651327
>An awesome song.
Should have been.
An awesome band.

My mistake.

>>4650838
An awesome song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKzWLUQizz8


Also this>>4651068

>>4647949
I suggest start with the New Testament.
I personally read from the King James Version.

If you would like to compare the versions the following site makes it easy.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/compare-translations/
Be sure to use the smaller search bar underneath "Compare Bible Verses in All Translations"
It even lets you have side by side comparisons of any two versions.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/parallel-bible/passage.aspx?q=Matthew+1&t=kjv&t2=niv

If anyone requires evidence that the bible speaks the truth.(Some of you obviously do not believe that it does.)
I would recommend the book I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.
If you don't feel like buying, or reading a new book. The following video covers some of the material.
He gets into why the new testament is true at the1:16:00 mark, but the entire video is worth watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyHWtQN4yLM
Could anyone recommend any other books regarding Christianity?
Below is my current list of books I want to read. Not necessarily in the order I intend to read them.

The Devil's Delusion: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions - David Berlinski
Mere Christianity - C.S. Lewis
The Kingdom of God Is Within You - Leo Tolstoy
Without Excuse - Werner Gitt

>>4627300
If you insist.

>>4627003
>Any attempt to ascribe a certain meaning to a certain passage of scripture is worthless unless it accounts for the various ways in which that scripture has been understood and put into practice by the people who consider it sacred
>understood and put into practice
Fair enough.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/ChristianAttacks.htm

Is that enough to "account" for my claim that Islam is a religion of hate?

Perhaps the source is bias.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosheh_Martyrs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_Hammadi_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_of_Atlas

How about now? Is that enough evidence for you?

As previously stated there are literally more than a HUNDRED verses calling for violence in the Qur'an.

I'm not saying that every Muslim is violent. I am saying that the Qur'an tells them to be violent.
Much in the same way that every "Christian" is not necessarily following what the bible says to do. ex The Westborro Babtist Church.
The point I was making is the Qur'an blatantly promotes violence.

I have not mistranslated, misunderstood, or otherwise changed the meaning of the verse.
"Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and will disgrace them and give you victory over them and satisfy the breasts of a believing people"- Qur'an 9:14
If you would like to read this verse in full context.
http://quran.com/9


I must say nice attempt to get me to change my argument from.
The Qur'an teaches violence to Muslims are violent.

The Bible clearly tells us to "love thy neighbor as thyself"
The Qur'an clearly tells us to "punish the unbelievers"

Can we be done with this yet?

When I am wrong, I will admit it.
I'm not just "sticking to my guns" here.
Its ok to be wrong man. Everyone makes mistakes. Let it go.

Continued from >>4628104

Matthew 5:19
"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

>Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
>he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
>in the kingdom of heaven:

My point here is even tho we are supposed to go do good works.
Not doing what you are supposed to do. Does not in its self condemn you.

I hope it does not sound as tho I have contradictory beliefs.

I do believe we are supposed to do good works. I just do not see it as a requirement.

>>4627689
In my opinion works are not a requirement as demonstrated by the thief on the cross.
It is also backed up by the following verses, as mentioned from the wiki.
Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
It is also demonstrated by the following verses.
Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 4:6 - Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works
Romans 4:16 - Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all

That being said.

James 2:17 - Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18 - Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
The next verse gets to the heart of the situation.
James 2:19 - Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
I think this demonstrates that "believing in God" is in itself lacking.
You must not only agree there is a God, but also agree that his way is best. I think works are a good way to demonstrate that you are in agreement with God.
If we continue reading in James we find.
James 2:21 - Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:22 - Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

I see this as trying to explain why you should do works, and not that they are a requirement.
In my opinion God knows your heart, and if you truly believe in Him, and are in agreement with Him. He will know it without works.
As seen with the thief on the cross. God knew he "would have changed" if he had the opportunity.

Considering that everyone who believes is not on facing certain death, as was the thief of the cross. We are supposed to " let your light so shine before men"
As indicated by the Lord in the following passage.
Matthew 5:13-16
"Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

So while works are a good indication that someone does have faith. Lack of works does not necessarily mean a lack of faith. i.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

>>4627003
>stupidity
>your own hamfisted approach
>That approach is hypocritical, inconsistent, and dumb

Wow nice. I still think you can do better.

THE ONE TRUE GOD IS A GOD OF LOVE.
see>>4616687
Do you understand?

>>4626755
>There are plenty of primary texts and academic resources out there.
And yet you still offer not one verse to contradict all the ones about violence.

>Well, I'm not...
Imma have to call bullshit on that one.
You have set out to prove me wrong ever since my post >>4625071
Unsuccessfully I might add.

>Judging by this post of yours, I'd say those difficulties are still with you.
Thank you for your help with that. I have to say tho, I honestly feel a lot better.
I am honestly not angry at all with you.
Furthermore I am genuinely grateful to have had this conversation.

My knowing that your trolling, and calling you out for it, is not the same as my being a dick to you.
If you don't want to be called a troll, perhaps you should stop trolling.


Thanks again

>>4626567
Cheers.
It was your reply that reminded me I should be grateful instead of hateful.
I was in the process of making a reply to a guy that had been trolling me, when I noticed a reply in one of the tabs.

What do you think of my reply?
>>4626560

I consider it a win / win situation.
If he leaves me alone. It is a win because no more troll.
If he continues his trolling. It is a win because I get to strengthen my resolve.
I actually hope he keeps going. I need to have better self control.

Anyways your reply could not have come at a better time. Thanks for your thanks.

>>4625984
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm
"The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule."
>at least 109 verses
It's not as if I took just one verse out of context.

Do you really think no one knows you are a troll?
Are you trying to make me angry? You wouldn't like me when I'm angry. LOL
Because I have to say I feel sorry for you.
I mean the fact that you have nothing better to do than troll is sad.
If that wasn't enough. You consider yourself to be cleverly disguised.
Thinking Ha HA no one knows I'm trolling this guy, all the while everyone can see that you are an obvious troll.

I admit I enjoy a good debate. Hence the replies.
Although you are not providing anything close to a reasonable argument.
It is too easy to show you are in error.
Perhaps that is part of your troll logic. To entice replies.
i.e. Say something that is easily refuted to ensure a response.
Whatever the reason I just wanted to take the opportunity to thank you.

Thanks for giving me more reasons to be grateful.
I am grateful for my intellect, when others are so obviously lacking.
I am grateful for my purpose, when others have none.
I am grateful that I am grateful, when others are hateful.

Thanks for giving me an opportunity to control my emotions. I have had difficulties with this in the past.
Thanks for giving me more reasons to be grateful. It really is better to have an attitude of gratitude.
Thanks for giving me first hand experience with someone whose goal it is to make me upset.

I admit I was upset when you first started your trolling, but now I am thankful to have had you reply.

I would ask you to please continue posting.

I challenge you troll.
Do your worst.
I appreciate the trial.

>>4626337
You are welcome.
I am happy to be helpful.

>>4625337
I do not own, nor have I read the book, but Amazon says it has 248 pages
And according to
http://nullimmortalis.wordpress.com/2010/08/06/the-conspiracy-against-the-human-race-by-thomas-ligotti-my-review/

"The book ends with what I consider to be a coda, as in a coda to a symphony. It is a lengthy exquisition on Horror Literature and Fiction – one that exponents (like myself) and readers of such literature will find most interesting. A major work on this subject. It sheds both oblique and direct light and/or darkness upon the preceding pages that carry a major and ground-breaking work of perceived Nihilism (CATHR). Without this coda, I would have had to be more negative."

I hope this will help.

>>4625574
I never disapproved of intercessory prayers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercession
Intercession is the act of interceding (intervening or mediating) between two parties. In Christian religious usage, it is a prayer to God on behalf of others.
> it is a prayer to God on behalf of others.

That is praying to God for someone else.
Not praying to someone else for someone else.

I have never said its not ok to ask someone to pray for you.
However praying to a person, or angel, or statue, is against the bible.

Nowhere in the bible does it tell you to pray to the saints, or the angels, or anyone but God the Father, or God the Son.

>>4625438
heh

Me too.
I know its mostly my fault we are so far off topic. Sorry for that


>>4625448
The KJV says it
Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

>will abhor
as in in the judgement
Perhaps if you would read it in context you would understand

One out of context verse does not discredit the notion that God loves us.

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-God-Is-Love/

>>4625456
The Qur'an is quite clearly a book that teaches violence
Qur'an 2:191
"And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

Qur'an 4:74
"So let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. And he who fights in the cause of Allah and is killed or achieves victory - We will bestow upon him a great reward."

Qur'an 9:14
"Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and will disgrace them and give you victory over them and satisfy the breasts of a believing people"

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

>>4625440
I would refer you to your previous post>>4625217
>Prayer isn't synonymous with worship
>synonymous
i.e. very strongly associated with something
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/synonymous
Considering that the word "worship" is used in the definition of the word prayer.
I contend that it is synonymous with worship. As demonstrated by my previous post. >>4625263

>And drop the attitude
I'm sorry if you consider my posts offensive. I have tried to be respectable.

Are you the same guy who recently called me a "disingenuous wankstation"? >>4625075

>>4625455
I was pointing out that the bible speaks against such things.
A point which has not been refuted. Regardless of who might be doing it.


I can do this all day anon, keep posting.

>>4625353
People are "damned" for denying God the chance to forgive them >>4617403
John 3:18
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Do you assume Edward FitzGerald had no sin?
You would have me believe. He had lived the perfect life, and God is punishing him for something someone else has done.
The bible would disagree.
Romans 3:23
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"


>>4625368
I had never considered that point, I had previously said >>4617403
>God has no need of self loathing
Thanks for further supporting my analogy.

I have used this in the past to discredit Islam, as it is a religion of hate, and I find it obvious that God is love.

>>4625331
Mohammed is a false prophet. see >>4616687