[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/sci/ - Science & Math

View post   
File: 125 KB, 1125x1217, 1663279801274952.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15096968 No.15096968 [Reply] [Original]

>I believe I am above cause and effect
Do free will fags really?

>> No.15096973

>>15096968
Why are you so obsessed and what does free will have to do with being "above cause and effect"?

>> No.15096983

>>15096973
If you believe that your choices are unaffected by pre-existing causes, then you believe that you are above cause and effect.

>> No.15096985

>>15096983
Why are you babbling about my choices being "affected by preexisting causes"? Why do you think this is relevant to the question of free will, or that it's even part of any meaningful analysis regardless of that question?

>> No.15096990

>>15096973
>>15096985
So you know free will cannot exist logically or physically, but you defend it with sophistry anyway
Just go back to seething about materialists and physicalists for being right. Idealism is not making the internet or computer run lol

>> No.15096991

>>15096990
>free will cannot exist logically or physically
Why not?

>> No.15097000

>>15096991
Explain how a person makes a choice without accidently describing determinism.

>> No.15097009

>>15097000
>Explain how a person makes a choice
No one knows.

>without accidently describing determinism.
Determinism will obviously never be useful in any model of behavior even in the eyes of those behavioral scientists who believe in it.

>> No.15097025

>>15097009
Explain how the theory of libertarian free will explains how a person makes choices without accidently describing determinism.

>> No.15097028

>>15096991
Logically, if existence was subordinate to will, someone would have willed existence away a long time ago.
The laws of physics wouldn't be a thing if physics were dependent on everyone in the same physical domain actively choosing to abide by the same set of laws either because everyone would just end up isolated in their own domain where they have the ultimate advantage.

>> No.15097033

>>15097025
axiom of choice

>> No.15097034

>>15097025
>Explain how the theory of libertarian free will explains how a person makes choices
No one knows how a person makes choices.

>without accidently describing determinism
Determinism will obviously never be useful in any model of behavior even in the eyes of those behavioral scientists who believe in it.

>> No.15097035

>>15097028
>if existence was subordinate to will, someone would have willed existence away a long time ago.
Sounds like schizo word salad to me. What does it mean for "existence" to be "subordinate" to "will"?

>> No.15097040

>>15097034
>No one knows
Explain how the "theory" of libertarian free will explains how a person makes choices without accidently describing determinism

>> No.15097043

>>15097040
I don't know why your mental illness compels you to keep pretending I need to defend someone else's philosophy, but I'm glad you agree that determinism doesn't figure into any scientific model of behavior.

>> No.15097054

>>15097043
I accept your concession.

>> No.15097062

>>15097054
I accept the severity of your mental illness. It's really freaky to watching you get stuck in a loop as soon as someone says something you don't have a preprogrammed talking point to respond with.

>> No.15097063

>>15097043
Your philosphy is that free will can exist logically and/or physically. Explain how the theory of libertarian free will explains how a person makes choices without accidently describing determinism.

>> No.15097064

>>15097063
>Your philosphy is that free will can exist logically and/or physically
That's not a philosophy.

>the theory of libertarian free will
I don't subscribe to "the theory of libertarian free will". See >>15097062

>> No.15097067

>>15097062
I accept your concession. Cry more, bitch.

>> No.15097072

>>15097067
I like how I don't even have to do anything to discredit you. Merely asking you to explain your position makes you act like a psychotic bot.

>> No.15097073

>>15097064
Do you believe that free will can exist logically and/or physically?

>> No.15097078

>15097072
Keep giving me (you)s

>> No.15097086

>>15097073
Yeah. Are you going to execute the same routine again asking me to justify someone else's philosophy again like a bot?

>> No.15097091

>>15097035
Its means the case where will has free reign over reality and existence is bound to will power rather than the power of physical force and causal physics.

>> No.15097092

>>15097091
>the case where will has free reign over reality and existence
What does this mean? Are you just shitting out some vague rhetoric you picked up in Philosophy For Dummies?

>> No.15097094

>>15097086
Explain how free will can exist logically and/or physically without accidentally describing determinism

>> No.15097096

>>15097094
>Explain how free will can exist logically and/or physically
Why would I need to do that? Are you deflecting because you can't defend your incoherent spergouts?

>> No.15097097

>>15097092
It means actually having free will instead of physically limited choices.

>> No.15097099

>>15097097
>It means actually having free will
What does that mean? inb4 you shit out the same vague rhetoric and keep going in circles.

>> No.15097105

>>15097096
Explain how free will can exist logically and/or physically without accidentally describing determinism, I'll accept your concession.

>> No.15097108

>>15097105
or* i'll accept your concession.

>> No.15097112

>>15097105
You can take the basic intuitions behind free will and consolidate them into a whole range of different intellectual positions, none of which depend on determinism being true or false. The way you keep lashing out against some unspecified boogeyman of "free will" already establishes the fact that you are emotionally motivated by your terminal dronism.

>> No.15097114

>>15097112
You can't explain how free will can exist logically and/or physically without accidentally describing determinism. So much for your philosophy that that free will can exist logically and/or physically. I accept your concession.

>> No.15097118

>>15097099
Free means lacking any constraint or boundary.
Will means the ability to choose your path in life.
Therefore free will is the ability to choose your path in life without any constraints or boundaries.
If anyone could make choices without constraints, they certainly wouldn't choose for someone like you to exist in the same space as them and they wouldn't choose to be limited by all the retarded physical laws that turn a pile of goo shit out by some slut into some clumsy idiot who wanders into free will threads without having any idea what free will even means.

>> No.15097121

>>15097114
Thanks for demonstrating my point that you are a nonsentient drone.

>> No.15097126

>>15097121
But you are the one who only seems to be posting a random selection from some insulting name database that has nothing to do with the discussion rather than a reasoning agent with any helpful logical insight based on the information you have reviewed ITT.

>> No.15097128

>>15097118
>the meaning of a concept is a composition of the meanings of the words that make up its handle phrase
Painfully stupid take.

>> No.15097132

>>15097121
Interesting how one simple sentence can provoke a variety of responses, each more irate and grasping than the last. And yes, I accept your concession.

>> No.15097133

>>15097126
Call me back when you can explain why you keep lashing out against some unspecified boogeyman of "free will" instead of providing a rational objection to a concrete idea.

>> No.15097134

>>15097132
Interesting how it took me about 30 seconds to get you stuck in a loop like a nonsentient drone that you won't come out of for the rest of the thread. Thanks for the demonstration. Anyway, you bore me.

>> No.15097135

>>15097133
>free will
>concrete

>> No.15097136
File: 59 KB, 395x388, i will got banned.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15097136

>>15096968
>everything MUST have a cause because... because... it just must, ok?

>> No.15097139

>>15097134
So anyways, would you kindly explain how free will can exist logically and/or physically without accidentally describing determinism?

>> No.15097147

>>15097139
What is determinism?

>> No.15097151
File: 2.09 MB, 2160x1884, 1623919053214.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15097151

>>15097136
>everything MUST have a cause EXCEPT GOD because... because... it just must, ok?

>> No.15097152

>>15097147
You're a real nigger for reading that whole exchange and decided it's time for you to "help" me by revving up the drone again. lo

>> No.15097153

>>15096968
You are literally a cause and an effect.

>> No.15097155

>>15097151
I'm an atheist but at least that makes some internal sense.

>> No.15097158

>>15097147
Yes, feel free to explain what determinism is, and how free will is distinct from determinism as well as logically and/or physically possible.

>> No.15097160

>>15097128
>words don't mean anything, so I am automatically correct about everything without having to explain it with words

>> No.15097166

>>15097133
I didn't lash out at all, I have yet to stoop to your level of name-calling and ad hominem, I just pointed out that your posts are the ones lacking any logical insight while consisting entirely of personal attacks and name calling to deflect from your lack of argument.

>> No.15097167

>>15097160
>the meaning of a concept is a composition of the meanings of the words that make up its handle phrase
Is this something you actually believe? Yes or no? Your preprogrammed decision tree says "deflect", doesn't it?

>> No.15097170

>>15097166
>your posts are the ones lacking any logical insight
Logical insight into what? I just wanted to know why you're lashing out an some unspecified boogeyman.

>> No.15097172

>>15097134
Yes that is how refusing to answer questions works, you just get asked again until you can provide some satisfactory answer.

>> No.15097173

>>15097152
Eat shit, braindead nigger. Go watch in the corner like a good cuck.
>>15097158
No, you pick the definition so that I know how to approach this.

>> No.15097179

>>15097151
I don't belong to any organised religion+I didn't say that+question of free will is irrelevant for God+what caused big bang (or big burst of inflation idk)?

>> No.15097178

>>15097167
So I can't use the words you provided to understand any meaningful context, the sum is different than the whole and only you can know what the specific combination of words actually means since the specific combination of words is different from the individual meaning of the words?

Exactly what do you think free will is if its not a will that is free?

>> No.15097183

>>15097170
Into the question you keep avoiding because you prefer to access your insulting word database rather than think about the question at hand.

>> No.15097188

>>15097178
>the meaning of a concept is a composition of the meanings of the words that make up its handle phrase
Is this something you actually believe? Yes or no? Your preprogrammed decision tree says "deflect" again. Notice how predictable your programming is.

>> No.15097189

>>15097173
Determinism: the idea that every event is necessitated by antecedent events and conditions

>> No.15097190

>>15097183
>the question you keep avoiding
I literally just don't care about your question. I care here asking you to explain the reasoning behind your chimpouts, and you've been stuck in a loop of deflections even since. lol. You're a certified nonhuman.

>> No.15097191

>>15097155
I don't know, it just seems like a needless extra step
>the universe just always existed
>the universe was created by a god but the god just always existed
Might as well skip the last part

>> No.15097194

>>15097188
How would words even be useful if they lose all meaning as soon as you pair them with other words? How am I suppose to understand anything you mean if the words you use change meaning so easily?

Exactly what do you think free will is if its not a will that is free?

>> No.15097195
File: 433 KB, 720x1600, Screenshot_20230103_104209_Firefox.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15097195

>>15096968
>thinks cause and effect are above freewill
cope

>> No.15097199

>>15097191
There is a better needless extra step.
Nothing just always existed.
The universe was created by the nothing that just always existed.

>> No.15097206

>>15097190
That doesn't make sense given that the reason for the repeated loop is you refusing to answer the original question and if you would just answer the question, the loop would stop.

>> No.15097207

>>15097189
> infinite regress
next

>> No.15097213

>>15097207
Infinite regress bad because...?

>> No.15097215

>>15097195
A will above cause and effect, aka free will, makes no sense.

>> No.15097216

>>15097213
Its bad for determinism since that would mean you could never actually determine any initial cause or the causes that result from it or how your present causes are related to any predetermined initial cause.

>> No.15097217

>>15097195
Stop parroting shit from Kastrup and other new age woo peddlers

>> No.15097219

>>15097194
See? I can predict every response of yours, and pointing it out won't even deter you from following through with your programming, because you aren't fully human.

>> No.15097223

>>15097206
>the reason for the repeated loop is you refusing to answer the original question
I know. I intentionally refuse to let you complete your deflection routine because I know how nonhumans work and it's funny to make your programming short out.

>> No.15097224

>>15097216
And an initial, brute fact cause is necessary because...?

>> No.15097226

>>15097219
Then why can't you answer the question before I ask them let alone after I do or even at all?

The only thing shorting out is your ability to coherently define free will without relying on the words that make up the phrase.

>> No.15097228

>>15097191
>it just seems like a needless extra step
Introducing something from outside a system supposedly governed by cause and effect avoids the special pleading of a cause inside the system that somehow breaks the rules of the system.

>> No.15097232

>>15097224
If there wasn't an initial cause or the initial cause was unknowable it would an indeterminate system rather than a determinate one.

>> No.15097233

>>15097226
>why won't you let me execute my deflection function??
>p-p-please
>i beg you
People really need to learn how to shortcircuit you and your crew.

>> No.15097234

>>15097223
You're the one calling others non sentient bots on a loop, though? Are you unable to answer the question because it would diverge from your programming?

>> No.15097235

>>15097223
That still makes no sense, you are the one initiating the loop with your inability to answer the question having been shorted out, the programming error is your error from your inability to answer the question and your continued deflection from your obvious ignorance.

>> No.15097236

>>15097234
No, I'm not stuck in a loop like you. I was directly addressing your attempt at a point. Now proceed with your loop.

>> No.15097243

>>15097235
Your mental illness is stunning. Anyway, this is boring so have your last (You). You will start this thread again tomorrow and get shat on again. You can't help it because you're a nonsentient bot.

>> No.15097245

>>15097236
>Explain how free will can exist logically and/or physically without accidentally describing determinism and without calling anyone a nonsentient bot challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)

>> No.15097256

>>15097233
Asking a question isn't deflection, refusing to answer a question because you are too ignorant to know the answer and would prefer to access your insulting name database rather than learn the answer is an example of deflection.

>> No.15097258

>>15097256
Maybe if you repeat this 50 more times, everyone will see how wrong I was about your lack of sentience. lol

>> No.15097259

>>15097189
Free will: the ability to do something with irrational or non-existent reasoning
Determinism: the idea that every event is necessitated by antecedent events and conditions
Defined like this, free will is not connected to determinism.
This free will does exist because people can be irrational or thoughtless.
Defined by determinism, free will physically does exist because it is impossible to know every antecedent and condition(scientifically, the exact position and state of every particle in the universe).
Defined by determinism, free will theoretically cant exist because the above is theoretically possible(in other words, you can pretend with approximations)

>> No.15097264

>>15097236
You are the only one stuck, the loop is someone asks you a question, you deflect and refuse to answer, someone else asks the question again, you deflect and refuse to answer again, etc, you started the loop and you are the only who can break it by actually answering the question.

>> No.15097267
File: 29 KB, 500x565, (you).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15097267

>Free will: the ability to do something with irrational or non-existent reasoning
Why are they like this?

>> No.15097268

>>15097259
>the ability to do something with irrational or non-existent reasoning
Is this really logical and/or physically possible?

>> No.15097269

>>15096968
Educate yourself you religious fanatic
https://arisbe.sitehost.iu.edu/menu/library/bycsp/necessity/Necessity.htm

>> No.15097273

>>15097243
>You will start this thread again tomorrow and get shat on again.
That is an interesting way of saying that no matter how many times you get asked a simple question, you will never be able to produce a coherent answer thanks to your ignorance and inferiority complex.

>> No.15097275
File: 76 KB, 300x255, 532524.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15097275

>Educate yourself you religious fanatic

>> No.15097278

>>15097194
nigga look it up if you don't know for fuck's sake

>> No.15097279

>>15097268
Yes. See: reality.

>> No.15097282

>>15097279
uhuh, but can you give me a specific example?

>> No.15097287

>>15097278
I looked it up, provided an obvious definition and you said something about how phrases can't be established through the meaning of the words that compose the phrase, then when asked you repeatedly refused to provide a definition of your own or explain how phrases can even be defined or sentences can be contextualized if you have to ignore the words that compose the phrase or sentence.

>> No.15097290

>>15097287
>the poorly programmed bot thinks everyone who shits on him is the same poster

>> No.15097296

>>15097290
I just gave them the benefit of doubt and didn't assume it was someone who is too retarded to read the reply chain before posting to see that I already had a definition that was thrown out for incoherent reasons.

>> No.15097299

>>15096968
>I am done taking advantage of womens sexual urges on online dating without wanting to commit and start a family but leave a train wreck of emotionally destroyed people in the wake of my endless quest for lust and unfullfiable narcissistic endevours and will not take any responsibility for my actions as a man - the leader of communities who is meant to protect women. I am truely an alpha.

>> No.15097300

>>15097282
I chose to reply to you. I dont get enjoyment out of this nor do I learn anything. My reason for replying is "Fuck, this nigga pisses me off, lemme show him how its done", which is not rational.
Other examples: go to any news outlet and search "shooting", "black", or "gang".

>> No.15097308

>>15097300
No you keep being compelled to do it because you are seething mad that you are too ignorant to answer the original question, so you have to fire up your insulting name database and target the people who exposed your ignorance instead of using your brain to answer a simple question.

>> No.15097309

>>15097296
>the meaning of a concept is a composition of the meanings of the words that make up its handle phrase
Is this something you actually believe? Yes or no? Your preprogrammed decision tree says "deflect" again. Notice how predictable your programming is.

>> No.15097312

>>15097308
That is one of the ways of being irrational.

>> No.15097313

>>15097309
I have no idea what you are trying to communicate if the words you use mean something arbitrarily different every time you use them in a different order than the dictionary,

What is your definition of free will if it is not based on the words free will?

>> No.15097315

>>15097313
Is that a yes or a no, subhuman? Why do you deflect every time?

>> No.15097319

>>15097300
You are performing the action based on the reasoning that I'm an uppity nigga and that niggas that piss you off need to be shown how it's done. Shootings and other gang related activities are shortsighted and barbaric , but not without reason. Because actions with non existent reasoning are impossible.

>> No.15097326

>>15097315
I don't understand what you are trying to say, you didn't use those words in dictionary order and words means something different when they are in different orders, so the words you are using could mean anything without any coherency in the definitions.

What is your definition of free will if it is not based on the words free will?

I already tried answering your questions and it got nowhere because you just said words don't mean the words that they mean.

>> No.15097330

>>15097319
I dont think "that niggas that piss me off need to be shown how it's done", yet I chose to show you how its done. That is an irrational reason.
For non-existent reason: see muscle memory, instantaneous decisions.

>> No.15097331

>>15097326
>I don't understand what you are trying to say,
Which part of the following sentence do you not understand?
"the meaning of a concept is a composition of the meanings of the words that make up its handle phrase"
If you do understand it, do you agree or disagree with it? Yes or no? Your preprogrammed decision tree says "deflect" again and you will prove it.

>> No.15097338

>>15097330
What is irrational about showing niggas pissing you off how it is done? And are you really going to argue that muscle memory is an expression of free will?

>> No.15097341
File: 31 KB, 468x469, not-science-needs-pruning.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15097341

>> No.15097343

>>15097338
I concede.

>> No.15097346

>>15097338
>>15097343
Congratulations, GPT. You have defeated GPT. Your programmer is proud of you both.

>> No.15097363

>>15097028
will your existence away