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70679454 No.70679454 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

The nameless rank and file guardsmen is unironically more important to the imperium then a Space Marine, the 40k of the equivalent of the Schwerer Gustav. Big and scary but more useful at psychological warfare than actual warfare.

>> No.70679468

>>70679454
You just read some 15 year old fluff? Sorry anon, that just isnt the way of it.

>> No.70679470

That's mostly because guardsmen outnumber marines 10000 to 1.

>> No.70679517

Guardsmen are there to slow the enemy down before the marines can do some shit to win.

>> No.70679535

>>70679468
>Sorry anon, that just isnt the way of it.

Logistically its the only thing that makes sense. A few trillion guardsmen vs maybe 200k space marines who are spread out in packs of 1000 across the entire galaxy. Its not even close. All the tales Space Marines being the key to any battle is most likely imperial propaganda that only has grains of truth.

>> No.70679574

>>70679535
Its a shame that logistics are relegated to headcanon.

>> No.70679575

>>70679535
>most likely imperial propaganda
Once you've reached the point of calling the actual work itself lies is when you have to admit you're just not actually a fan of it at all. Guardsmen are literally only in the setting so the imperium has something to lose with, since space marines losing all the time would make them look gay. Guard fans erections only get harder when they read just how many billions of their own team get ground into dogfood in some fight against orks or eldar or whatever.

>> No.70679579

>>70679535
Nope. Guardsmen exist to hold the enemy in place so the space marines can preform strikes on key locations which cripple the enemy war machine. Then the guardsmen roll over an already defeated enemy. This is why tyrannies are so threatening because there is no real key portion of their military structure that you can kill since it’s one hive mind.

>> No.70679628

>>70679575
>Once you've reached the point of calling the actual work itself lies

That legitimately the point of all works in 40k though. Everything is canon and nothing is...

>> No.70679667

>>70679579
>muh headcanon

>> No.70679668

>>70679579
>This is why tyrannies are so threatening
I assume you mean Tyranids (fuck you, by the way), in which case they have synapse creatures.

>> No.70679759

>>70679579
>>70679575
If the lore would just state more clearly that any time a chapter "conquers" a planet it had help from stuff like guard/Mechanicus/sisters forces this wouldn't be such a fallacy.

During 30k? Yeah marines were conquering planets all the time, they had the numbers to spread out and take the planet in force. But even before Horus betrayed the Imperium they were already heavily leaning on Mechanicus and solar auxilia forces to take and hold planets, and that's back when they could field entire legions and there were far more Titans.

In 40k, you have a chapter limited to a 1,000 marines. The largest ones that ignore the codex split their forces up regularly so they're not even fielding their 6k marines in one spot, and the ones that do maintain the codex often operate at the company level. You can't hold a planet even with a 1,000 marines, let alone 2-300 like a typical force is typically made up of. The problem is GW rarely mentions all the chapter serfs marines have to man their ships and run security, and the fact that almost no marine action would be made without support from some other force like the guard or knights. You could lose space marines and lose a major chunk of your elite fighting ability, but be ok. If you lost the guard, and especially the PDF, and you'd now be wasting countless marines on garrison duty. Both forces need each other, but if the Imperium could only keep one, they'd be far better served by keeping the guard than the marines. They'd still have Mechanicus, sororitas, knights, and a ton of other specialist branches to fill the role of doorkickers the marines used to fill. No other branch can quite fill the role of garrison force, general security, and just general shit work that you need boots on the ground to fill.

>> No.70680003

>>70679579
No. Noo. Even with the most space-marine-centric take on the canon, there are just too few of them to be the solution to all of the imperium's problems. The guard have to win their wars on their own, mostly.

>> No.70680029

>>70679535
Nah, they both have their roles, guardsmen are used as a hammer of the Imperium, they are the main battleforce, but Space Marines are its scalpel, they exist to defeat the enemy via tactics and not numbers

>> No.70680035

Here's your threadly reminder that 40k canon is ambigious on purpose, both to offer an interesting "make of it what you will" and also (and mainly) to cover for lazy inconsistent writers. Some things have more "gravity" in the canon, but there is absolutely no one hard canon.

>> No.70680167

>>70679454
U DARE CCHARRANGE TEH LEGITMACY OF TEH SPEESSS MARHHHRINES!?

>> No.70680170

>>70679454
Neither is more important to a war.
Astartes are monsters. Where normal, even elite troopers get bogged down for months with no way in they can find, astartes get through the entire thing in less then an hour, if half that.
Then the huge mass of guard, and other forces comes in and occupies it.

That's the original idea in the great crusade. Astartes steamroll everything, guard/auxilia (who were more like modern day soldiers, or some low level spartans) follow in behind and make sure nothing else comes in first, and fight where astartes aren't needed (distressingly few cases).

Then, ten thousand years of blind fuckery later, with letting everything get out of hand, and groups getting personalities, this whole organised plan falls through because often it's just astartes (who simply wipe out anything even remotely heretical, so nothing is able to retake the planet afterwards), or just guard (who decide to just throw bodies at it until it dies).

>> No.70680467

>>70680170
You are aware space marines are basically worse ork nobs? With all weird abilities they got, an ork, even normal boy can quite often kill space marine on a battle field?

>> No.70680542

>>70680467
Wow, and nobs are just slightly bigger orks. Why aren't the guard being completely slaughtered by these power armoured, drop pod, tactical ork units? How could a guardsmen dare to stand against the mighty space marine equal ork nobs?

>> No.70680544

>>70679668
There are millions of synapse creatures too many for a surgical strike
>>70679667
Space marines are regularly described as the sword of the emperor because they’re used for precise surgical attacks. Imperial guard are regarded as a hammer because they just wear down opponents and sometimes win

>> No.70680557

>>70679454
>a Space Marine, the 40k of the equivalent of the Schwerer Gustav. Big and scary but more useful at psychological warfare than actual warfare.

Victory or defeat can depend on concentration of force at a single "schwerpunkt" or "center of gravity." This is where Napoleon would hit with his elite Imperial Guard when the right moment came. The schwerpunkt is where you'd deploy an especially strong, overwhelming force.

>> No.70680565

>>70679454
Why are you applying this shit to 40k when it's clearly written by people that don't really know or care about military tactics or strategies?

>> No.70680578

>>70679759
>
During 30k? Yeah marines were conquering planets all the time, they had the numbers to spread out and take the planet in force. But even before Horus betrayed the Imperium they were already heavily leaning on Mechanicus and solar auxilia forces to take and hold planets, and that's back when they could field entire legions and there were far more Titans.

And even then in 30K they actually had combined arms so you had Astartes backed up by the Mechanicus, the Titan legions, and the Solar Auxilia in a lot of cases.

It's only the turbo-tards like the World Eaters and Night Lords who are mostly pure Marine forces, and even they have Imperial Navy to run their ships; it's just other ground forces they don't have as backup because either someone got smart and re-allocated them or they got team-killed with extreme prejudice.

>> No.70680701

>>70679470
more like a million to 1 if even

>> No.70680729
File: 370 KB, 1280x1882, 1458464970803.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70680729

>>70679454
You can logic things out all you want, but that won't prevent 40k from becoming more and more marinewank. Even when marines would be far better if they were treated as elites, both in lore and in how often they show up.

>> No.70680731

>>70679454
>The nameless rank and file guardsmen is unironically more important to the imperium then a Space Marine
Any single Space Marine is far more important than any single Guardsman. Now, several thousand rank and file guardsmen, they're important as a whole.

>> No.70681828

>>70679454
In the Emperor's Imperium there were millions of Marines and they pretty much operated as the main rank and file troop.

In 40k they're rarer and the imperium has somehow lost all its industrial capacity and not made any more in 10,000 years so Muhreens are basically used operationally the same as special forces, with Guardsmen holding territory and forming the anvil and marines inserting in key areas where their force multiplication matters and being the hammer.

>> No.70681864

The guard holds the line but the key strategic breakthroughs are spearheaded by space marined

>> No.70681887
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70681887

>>70679454
>Heh, such primitive armor and weaponry for your so called "front line troops", gue'la.

>> No.70681965

I remember reading about how the imperial guard are already a tier above, they're an interplanetary force that does planetary invasions and combined arms operations. Day to day shit is mostly done by local planet defense forces. Counter insurgency, putting down rebels, conquering that untamed jungle next door, etc. Are all done by planetary defense forces. Calling in the imperial guard is already a big deal.

And then space Marines are basically legendary. Most people have never even seen one. Most guardsmen have never seen one. When Marines get deployed, it's because all hell is breaking loose. Chaos incursion, tyranid fleet, Ork waagh, etc.

It might be a bit noblebright instead of grimdark, but I kinda like the idea of the 40k universe not being such an apocalyptic shithole all the time. Like your average imperial world is just a planet and people just live their mundane lives under a tyrannical government for generations without anything interesting happening. A war that requires the imperial guard to be deployed is a big deal. One that requires space Marines is a legendary conflict

I'll go one better, space Marines should be a super special unit choice for imperial guard players. And give them the stats to match the lore. Like maybe you buy one marine for 100 points. Or a 5 marine squad for 500 points or something. And they'd have a powerful stat line to match. They'd be the best of the best of the best

>> No.70681972

>>70681828
>and not made any more in 10,000 years
What are you talking about? There were 22 other foundings before Guilliman's return. And by the High Lords own admission they could easily produce twice or even three times as many marines as there are now, but then they wouldn't be able to keep control of all of them.

>> No.70681988

>>70681972
25*

>> No.70681992

>>70679628
Well where's your citation that the victories of the space marines are all just Imperial Propaganda? You realize that only applies to shit GW has published right? Even if it's from 90s you still gotta cite your post-RT source.

>> No.70681994

Who gives a fuck how many guardsmen or marines there are when wars are decided in space? Aren't they called space marines because they're good at boarding actions?

>> No.70682028

>>70681972
any more industrial capacity over what they had, not space marine chapters

>> No.70682058

>>70681965
This is what the 40k Universe is like though.

There's so many worlds that the majority are just so-so places. They aren't even necessarily repressive regimes, the canon is left open and there are worlds that are Feudal, worlds that are basically like the current day Earth. The Imperiums bureaucracy is so badly ran and the empire so large that places get forgotten about. The Imperial Guard vary vastly but they're a level above or a similar level to PDF depending upon the situation.

>> No.70682136

>>70679454
Hang on, if boring guardsmen become the posterboys of 40k, replacing all the godlike supersized manga robot fascist blueberry puff tart chad marines, wont that effect sales? So no, guardsmen will never be more important in the 40k universe.

>> No.70682165

>>70679535
> A few trillion guardsmen vs maybe 200k space marines who are spread out in packs of 1000 across the entire galaxy.

In old pre Dark imperium fluff there is 913 surviving loyalist chapters out of 1064 to have been founded. Lets say they at 80% strength as a whole, that would get us 730400 space marines.

Here is the thing, they have their own transports and war fleets in order to get into conflict zones as fast as possible. That strategic mobility makes them more valued then their numbers would spell out.

The guard expressly do not do have their own transports or war fleets under the same reforms that limited chapters to 1000 marines.

>> No.70682170
File: 463 KB, 1218x835, phil-moss-pmoss-space-marines.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70682170

>>70679454
Not anymore, the Imperium can now just pull millions of chad marines out of their ass now.

>> No.70682185

>>70679454
The nameless rank and file guardsman is less important than his commanders used cigarette

>> No.70682192

>>70679454
You're especially retarded if you think that. A regiment of ten thousand infantry plus support crew is more important than a space marine chapter, but a single guardsman versus a space marine? Of course not. Guard are important not because they're some sort of imperial heroes, but because they form the backbone of the imperial forces and are reliable enough to not go about challenging the enemy to honor duels or risking entire regiments to protect a banner or some stupid shit like that, not because they're better than space marines.

>> No.70682201

>>70680729
I bet Imperial Guard knives can't even get 5G.

>> No.70682277

>>70681965

This is largely accurate, but in the kind of scaled-down semi-realistic scale tabletop game then something like a Skitarii maniple or small Eldar force would also be scary as all hell.

Clicking cyborg shock troopers in gleaming armour shrugging off direct las volleys and snapping off perfect killshots at extreme range with rifles that make every nerve in your body burn out in spasms, in numbers rivalling Guard, that kill you just for being nearby for long enough and have both great command and control and basically zero fear. Oh yeah, and if their spinning, rolling balls of shrieking blades that pass for melee units haven't already blinded you with neurostatic and walked past on their way to shove a power sword through your commander's head.

Or eldar, who are just Matrix agents.

On the tabletop both of the above are just cheap, largely irrelevant cannon fodder used to stand in front of more important units, if you even bother bringing them at all. Everyone but the Guard, the Orks and the Chaos Renegades would be an elite army.

>> No.70682299

>>70680729
>sword has an easy-snap tip and an unironic bayonet
>Jared Leto's Joker type scribbles all over his armor
>printing 6 CVS receipts at once with data from his skullWIFI (tm) antenna
I can only hope the artist was having a laugh while creating this.

>> No.70682354

>>70680565

... or basic physics.

Applying logic to 40k is never a good idea.

>> No.70682404

>>70681965
The problem with making marines match their points is that then you'd have to change everything - every army has insanely OP units and weapons because 40k is a powerwank setting. So sure you could make marines better but then you'd have to make pretty much everything but the most basic nids better. It is, tau, elder, nids, necrons, chaos, they all have so much shit that is described as being on par or better than marines. It would be easier to just nerf guardsmen and the next weakest models in the game to 1 or 2 points per model.

>> No.70682457

>>70682404

Even Orgyns are supposed to be bigger, tougher and stronger than marines. So if you push up marine statelines to some 100 point monster, you've got to push Ogryns up to being pretty much IG monsterous creatures. Or how SOB use the same equipment as marines. So if you make Boltguns worth shooting with on a 100 point model, SOB are going to jump through the roof. That or, god forbid: What you do with Marine Terminators or other non-basic marines

It's something you couldn't remotely do unless it was the starting point for a new game entirely. Like if you did a new Kill Team game where Guard bring 10 guys, Orks get 5 boys, SOB get a pair of Battle Sisters and Marines get a single character.

>> No.70682479

>>70679454
>The nameless rank and file guardsmen is unironically more important to the imperium then a Space Marine, the 40k of the equivalent of the Schwerer Gustav. Big and scary but more useful at psychological warfare than actual warfare.
By that logic, boots are more important than guardsmen, because guardsmen just win wars, boots provide footwear ALL OVER the imperium, INCLUDING guardsmen.

>> No.70682511

>>70682479
Plus, even if we only count the militarily trained boots, there are at least twice as many of them as there are guardsmen!

>> No.70683541

>>70681994
>Aren't they called space marines because they're good at boarding actions?

They were pretty damn good at it in Battlefleet Gothic. iirc, only Nurgle Chaos was better (Because they auto-won due to all the plagues).

>> No.70683657

>>70680467
In crunch yes, in fluff no. Fluffwise astartes munch nobs like cheerios.

>> No.70683678

>>70679454
>Big and scary but more useful at psychological warfare than actual warfare.
That is in no way true. The Astartes are superior as a military force in every aspect but numbers. Where hundreds of thousands of guardsmen would die in a battle with a shitload of orks, the marines can and will locate the warboss and carve a path of destruction to him before killing him. Marines are a scalpel, capable of utterly decimating the enemy by completing key objectives, at which point they leave the rest to the guard to mop it up. The guard is a blunt force weapon suited only to attrition warfare and soviet style waves of bodies.
The marines are the Emperor's finest anon, and no amount of denial can change that.

>> No.70683688
File: 54 KB, 718x960, To eat or not to eat..jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70683688

>>70681887
Based tau

>> No.70683698

>>70683657
Depends on the writer. I saw marines jobbing to orks with spears in Helsreach.

Fact of the matter is the tabletop is literally the only metric we have.

>> No.70683765

>>70683698
You can be monstrously OP and still be a jobber when the author decides you jave anti plot armor.

>> No.70683785

>>70683698
By tabletop metric there shouldn't be any marines left by now from sheer attrition.

>> No.70685139

>>70679454
I don't know what you are pondering at. It's written in the lore. The SM is the spear and the IG is the hammer.

>> No.70685282
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70685282

>>70683657
Even in that old 40k Novel with the Assault on Black Reach, regular nobs maybe. But in the novel, it took 4-6 Marines CONSTANTLY SPRAYING THEIR BOLTERS to put down ONE (1) Mega Nob.

Also it depends on the clan and WAAAGH. Even Space Marines had trouble on the battle of Armageddon against Ghazghkull, Ghazghkull himself slaughtering Marines like fodder.

>> No.70685475

>>70679574
Otherwise the whole fucking premise makes no sense, so why are you surprised by this?

>> No.70685596

>>70683785
There's no other metric.

>> No.70685814

>>70679454
As a group, they're more important. Individually, they're disposable trash. That's why no one cares
>big and scary but more useful at psychological warfare than actual
They have a niche role that is invaluable and that they do quite well

>> No.70685826
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70685826

You know an IG FPS could actually work

>go through "basic training"
>everything you face is cardboard cut outs of aliens
>really easy, really basic
>unfamiliar players will get baited
>40k vets know things are gonna get bad
>after tutorial make landing
>run into one or two rippers, looking good
>your commander NPC seems pretty sound
>suddenlynids.jpg
>takes a good solid 3-4 hits off lasgun to kill gaunt
>you must flee, picking off stray gaunts
>watch fellow guardsmen die one at a time horribly
>make it to evac, last survivor
>due to administrative fuck ups and blind luck, promoted to a Stormtrooper company
>get sent across galaxy for missions to fight different xenos
>assassinations, mowing down fodder (chaos cult), shock drops
>can even get co-op play

God I wish GW would fund it

>> No.70685858

>>70685475
I'm not sure I see your point here. That anon doesn't seem surprised by anything.

>> No.70685879

Space marines are a rapid reaction force, for close quarter assault and high intensity operations, the imperial guard is so massive in numbers and have better artillery and support, better in low intensity, long conflicts.
Also, tanks made from agricultural tractors...

>> No.70686210

>>70685826
Make a kronus situation where all the factions are fighting on a single planet and the whole game is basically just trying to survive as a guardsmen

>> No.70688030

>>70685826
>40k FPS
IT'S QUIET!

>> No.70688897

>>70688030
I T ' S Q U I E T !

>> No.70688965
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70688965

>>70681887

>> No.70688997
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70688997

>Imperial Guard
>Attack planets with the help of Imperial Navy.
>Not called Space Marines.
>Space Marines.
>Defenders of the Imperium
>Not called the Imperial Guard.

>> No.70689147
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70689147

>>70685826
>How an IG FPS would work.
>64, maybe 128 players.
>Can either have IG vs Heretics or IG equivalent (Tau, Genestealer cults, something like that)
>All theater gameplay (Land, sea, air)
>Commander role lets you call in things like orbital strikes.
>Let a few players play Space Marine or Chaos Space Marines like how people can play Jedi or Sith in Battlefront.

If you want to have single player, make it squad based like Republic commando or Rainbow Six/ Ghost Recon. Gameplay over theme.

>> No.70689216

>>70688030
>>70688897
NOTHING DETECTED

>> No.70690081

>>70679454
Guardsmen are the hammer, used to bludgeon a wide range of threats and opponents into submission. Astartes are the scalpel, used to take on extreme threats which require more focus and skill than a typical Guardsman force can provide. Plus a Space Marine force can accomplish objectives quickly and without casualties that otherwise would eat up time and men if the same objective was tasked to Guardsmen. Without the Guardsmen, the Imperium would be overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of their enemies. Without the Astartes, the Imperium would be destroyed by powerful threats like Black Crusades or Chaos cults or Xeno invasions.
The Guardsmen and Astartes function best as a combined arms force. Each covers the weakness of the other.

>> No.70690101

>>70680029
Kind of like the Army (hammer) and the Air Force (scalpel).

>> No.70694139

>>70681887
and yet

>> No.70697264

>>70681887
A guardsman could beet a Tau to death with a dick slap alone

>> No.70697433
File: 75 KB, 800x600, 40658_md-Cadians, Imperial Guard, Terrain, Tyranids, Warhammer 40,000.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70697433

Average Cadian or Termagaunt. 1v1. Who would win?

(Imagine Pic Related were Termagants not Hormagaunts)

>> No.70697466

>>70697264
>Update
>implying he'd ever get that close

>> No.70697470

>>70681887
Honestly the Tau have an advantage against the Guard. However that advantage is lost under the press of bodies the guard can churn out. Think Germany against Russia in WW2. Individually a fire warrior trained since birth to fight is a better soldier than a guardsman, but there are ten Guardsmen to every one fire warrior in any true engagement. And a single fire warrior isn’t gonna take down ten Guardsmen.

>> No.70697476

>>70679535
Dun matter, we marinehammer now.

>> No.70697488

>>70679454
Splitting the Imperial army and the Imperial Navy was a mistake.

>> No.70697519

>>70697470
True but in a realistic engagement most Fire Warriors will probably be whisked away by Devilfish or used as bait for big suits to churn those waves of guardsmen into pulp

>> No.70697575

>>70697433
With or without weapons?

>> No.70697588

>>70682277
Don’t forget the close quarters variant that are walking radiation hazards. If TT was more realistic Vanguard getting into melee would be doing mortal wounds. Like, for every 5 models in a unit roll a d6. On a 4+ all non-vehicle units in melee with the vanguard take d3 mortal wounds, even other AdMech units.

>> No.70697821

>>70697575
With

>> No.70697935

>>70697470
Fun fact: When Russian Troops were pulling the Germens back, they had about 1/3 more trained fighting men than the Germans. Which isn't that much of an advantage on the Eastern Front, and their tech wasn't that far enough. Everyone seems to forget that the Germans were still using horses to move all of their shit and limited bolt action rifles. Just like the Russians.

A better IRL comparison would be the Korean War. The US/Whatever bringing the better weapons, tech, and tactics. While the North Koreans and Chinese did zerg rushes.

>> No.70697971

Unrelated but does anybody know how many ships are in the imperial navy? Do they have several millions of capital ships (escorts included), or only a couple thousand?

>> No.70697989

>>70697466
>Basilisk battery would like to know your location
>just kidding, our spotters just informed us

>> No.70698059

>>70697935
Oh sorry, I mean the Russians had about 1/3 more train fighting men THROUGHOUT the war. Never the overwhelming numbers just enough to put pressure on the Germans.

>> No.70698115

>>70697971
Numbers are kept intentionally ambivalent. Which is the way it shoild be, because who the fuck cares if the navy has one-hundred-thousand bigass ships, or ten-million bigass ships? What difference does it make?

>> No.70698269

>>70697821
Termagaunt

>> No.70698287

>>70697433
Depends on too many factors and also who cares because wars aren't fought 1v1

>> No.70698438

>>70685826
nah how bout this

>warhammer 40k fps/tps
>3 way multiplayer lobby where you choose your faction as you boot up the game (can switch factions daily
>guards, orks boys, and chaos cultists, are your standard troops
>if you get 800 points you can spawn in as marauder bomber, fighta bomba, hell talon but are hard capped as 3 per team at any given time
>if you get 1000 points you can get a vehicles like a leman russ, dreadnought, looted predator, deff dread, predator, hellbrute. but are hard capped as 4 per team
>if you get 1500 points you an spawn in as a elite troops like kasrkin, ardboys or a elite cultist and are not capped
>if you get 2250 you can spawn in as a space marine, nob, and chaos space marine (capped at 10
>if you get 3000 you can spawn in as terminator, mega nob, chaos terminator (capped at 3)
>5000 points lets you in your factions ultimate vehicle and multiple people can crew it but the guy that spawns it drives it baneblade, land raider, battle wagon, squigoth, chaos land raider, fellblade (obviously capped at 1)
>also for 5k points you can spawn in as a solo ultimate vehicle Imperial knight, gorkanaught/morkanaught, and corrupted imperial knight

>> No.70698553
File: 275 KB, 1920x747, 7c80d305f974812b39d2a2423899258c[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70698553

>>70698438
>>70689147
trying to think of some Tau ideas, Id love something like Battlefront 2's idea with reinforcements and a few basic set classes you spawn with.

>Fire Warrior - can be customized as a Strike Team or Breacher Team and equipped accordingly
>Pathfinder
>has bonus to drones and come equipped with carbines with the option to upgrade to rail rifle/ion rifles
>also has special markerlight, will probably be swappable to for ease of gameplay, can also call in air strikes from skyrays/aircraft (probably get a bonus target lock or something to anybody piloting those vehicles)
>stealthsuit
>with option to customize burst rifle or fusion blaster, automatic passive stealth that gets a little more visible as you move but you get a bonus to staying cloaked if you stay still. jetpack ability which is more quiet than usual. you get revealed if you take a certain threshold of damage, still somewhat more formidable in armor than a standard fire warrior
>crisis suit
>mainline reinforcement: one of the most customizable units in the whole game. whole appeal is swapping shit loads of weapons, plasma rifles, etc etc. more expensive options possibly include more experimental weapons or uncommon like their aiburst frag which is like a fast recharging on the go mortar rifle. damn formidable, should be roughly as tough as a space marine is, much larger hitbox however. jetpacks are loud but flexible and they can dodge around using short bursts. option to have a drone
>whole t'au army benefits incredibly from markerlights. auto aim wouldnt be super fun to fight so probably highlight pulsing targets and making big reticules around them and also giving a bonus to damage
I might go on later but Id love a huge extensive guard vs t'au AAA game like Battlefront or Battlefield
>pic related

>> No.70698583

>>70698553
aight good idea here, so how bout we just incorporate all factions and the battlefronts reinforcement ideas with planetside 2 scale?

>> No.70698650
File: 499 KB, 1280x1707, tumblr_olci1sgUZv1vjjcaco1_1280[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70698650

>>70698583
Planetside 2 is a good comparison too if we want to go really into fucking depth, id even like the original Planetside's idea of having to spec more RPG like into certifications or trees overtime
>Stormsurge
>special call in vehicle, limit to only a few at a time on the battlefield
>more static gunline/support platforms than what the t'au are used so they have to be used stratetigcally else its a potental massive loss of resources if the stormsurges are caught without any support
>requires two pilots, a driver and primary gunner. driver could maybe control plasma rifles/smaller arms while the gunner has access to the main weapon and secondary missile systems
>can entrench to increase range, accuracy and damage
>moderately tanky as far as superheavy class units go
>still vulnerable to being enclosed on, can only be picked up after a long cooldown
>due to its superheavy class, the actual explosion can sometimes go critical and do a moderately large and lethal blast that can oneshot normal infantry and even damage armored units
>will decimate normal tank squads but may have a straight up slugfest with equivalent imperial superheavies

>> No.70698714

>>70698115
It makes quite a big difference actually if you think about it.

>> No.70698768

>>70698714
in a literal sense it would, if 40k were a real thing and you were living in it, then of course, the navy having more ships wpuld make a difference.
In a real-world, practical, "this is fiction so everything is made up and inconsistent" sense, it makes no difference.

>> No.70698811

>>70698650
>skitarii ranger dual wielding transsonic blades

>> No.70698845

>>70698811
>KIDS ARE CRUEL JACK

>> No.70699050

Military forces have exactly as many vehicles, supplies, and manpower as the fiction writer needs them to have to make the scene interesting. No more, no less.

>> No.70699087
File: 692 KB, 1680x1050, 1398355065244.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70699087

>>70679454
Anybody else remember when Space Marines were common soldiers?

>> No.70699165

>>70699050
this guy gets it

>> No.70700607

>>70680029
Why not just shoot them from space?

>> No.70700930

>>70698650
I really want a 40K conversion of Planetside 2 now.

Daybreak are broke after their joke of a Battle Royale game, GW could probably buy the rights for peanuts.

>> No.70700941

>>70700607
Planets are big, spaceships are small

Planets usually have shielding/defences that require a land invasion to disable and capture.

>> No.70700981

>>70700941
>Planets usually have shielding/defences that require a land invasion to disable and capture.
If the defenses are good enough to shield against a hailstorm of projectiles, how do they get circumvented by significantly bigger drop pods / transport shuttles?

>> No.70700994

>>70700941
>Planets are big, spaceships are small
Space marines are even smaller.
>Planets usually have shielding/defences that require a land invasion to disable and capture.
It makes no sense that it wouldn't stop landing craft and drop pods.

>> No.70701011

>>70700981
Presumably like all sci-fi shields they only apply to things

>> No.70701042

>>70701011
How are drop pods, transport shuttles, jet packs, armor etc. not things?

>> No.70701272

>>70701042
Well 'sci fi' shields let people pick up objects, walk on ground and so on without disintegrating it. Presumably people walking around don't get vaporized if they happen to venture into an invisible shield so they have some kind of discerning factor between a projectile and other objects.

I don't know why you're trying to apply absolute realism to universe with fuckoff inconsistencies, faith as an actual means of affecting the universe, psychic shit, daemons and so on.

The reason they can't just bomb every planet is rule of cool, the tabletop game and fluff would be dull if it just turned into "and they bombed another planet from orbit for a few days"

If you want in lore reasons, the Imperium are notoriously backwards and the infrastructure/industry of a planet is often its far most valuable asset beyond everything else so they want to try and capture it as intact as possible.

Tau are a bit more pragmatic and probably don't want to murder absolutely everyone rather defeat them in strategic conflict without murderizing the whole populace.

Tyranids basically do fuck every planet from orbit

Orks just want a good fight so they go down to beat people up

Chaos just want to ruse people, bombing people from orbit isn't particularly good for maximum effort trolling unless you're Honsou and you virus bomb a planet an Ultramarine was honour bound to protect to give said Ultramarine the middle finger for being codex-sexual.

>> No.70701334

>>70701272
>I don't know why you're trying to apply absolute realism to universe with fuckoff inconsistencies, faith as an actual means of affecting the universe, psychic shit, daemons and so on.
Because it's fun to poke at all the logical weakspots of a setting I still unironically enjoy experiencing. It's fun posing a very obvious question and see where the ride takes you.

>> No.70701367

So how much above the average guardsman is a SOB in fluff? They've got Bolters and Power Armour like a marine but lack the innate strength and toughness of a marine under the armour.

>> No.70701420

>>70701367
Look at their stats.

>> No.70704595

this is a good thread

>> No.70706390
File: 742 KB, 768x1024, Tau_vs_Marines[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70706390

>>70698650
Im debating if Crisis Suits should be third person or if you could have a cool MechWarrior like HUD in first person.

>> No.70706431

>>70690081
The Imperium in general would function better if its military was used as a combined force instead of mandated separation that it has. But Horus being Horus....

>> No.70706447

>>70701367
In fluff, those girls are buff.

>> No.70706896

>>70706447
>tfw no buff one eyed qt sister to bully me

>> No.70709155

>>70679454
Trash men are more important to functioning society than sports stars. Niggas still rather watch football than competitive mopping tho baka. We live in a society.

>> No.70712997

>>70679579
You're completely wrong you dunce
>There are AT LEAST 500 billion stars in the Milky Way
>The Imperium consists of 'a million worlds' apparently, probably much less now with the rift
>There are at most a million space marines
>So one marine to defend every world from the threats of half a million star systems, to say nothing of the fact many of those compliant worlds are full of millions of enemies like genestealer cults
The real redpill is that the navy is far and away the largest and most important force defending the Imperium, after that probably the PDF then the Guard, space marines are almost meaningless except for the odd strike that might kill a general who will be replaced a thousand times easier than one marine

>> No.70713043

>>70681992
But surely if nothing's canon that does mean you can just make shit up.

>> No.70713075

40k is just like our world except that everyone is catholic, you have physical proof that god exists, and gods angels are also physically real and help you in battle. if you removed those icons of unity from the setting, then humans would go back to being segregated like we are now.

>> No.70713105

>>70713075
>you have physical proof that god exists, and gods angels are also physically real and help you in battle
Except a large portion of the Imperium thinks Terra is a myth and most people will never actually see a Space Marine. And a hefty percentage of those who do get to see one are in a nightmare warzone that they won't escape anyway.

>> No.70713138

>>70713105
One of my favorite parts in the Path of the Eldar series is when the Exarch is terrified of Space Marines, but has only seen them once before in his ten thousand years.
I feel like writers play up the power level part way too much, and the rarity part way too little.

>> No.70713149

Spessmehreens are protecting you RIGHT NOW so you can live a life in peace, protected from chaos, darkness, and all the other things lurking in the dark.

>> No.70713180

>>70713105
of course, humans are still humans and tend to believe in what they see, thats why you can watch humans all try and fail to do something the same way they just watched someone fail at doing it, we learn by trial and error from first hand experience. That being said, there is still undeniable physical proof that these angels exist.

>> No.70713256

>>70700981
>If the defenses are good enough to shield against a hailstorm of projectiles, how do they get circumvented by significantly bigger drop pods / transport shuttles?
Typically what happens is the soldiers drop outside the shield and fight their way through it on the ground.

like, bruh, empire strikes back did this how many decades ago?

>> No.70713287

>>70712997
Warhammer operates on a much harsher scale of mook:boss ratio. The mook of a faction is lower than dirt and will die by trillions to prove how dark the setting is, the leader of an army will be an semi-immortal being chosen by god, armed with thousand year old lost technology and a master of every concept imaginable. Killing the named dude is so much more important that the mooks might as well turn into dust afterwards for how much they mattered.

>> No.70713290

>>70685475
Logistics don’t make sense in my magical space knight setting.

>> No.70713338
File: 10 KB, 360x192, spaceballs the planetary shield system.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70713338

>>70713256
This implies that the planetary defenses don't span the entire planet. Which I find hard to believe for really, really high value targets.

>> No.70713379

>>70713338
I don't think 40k has full-on planetary shielding. But in that case the marines would still be way more relevant thanks to their training in teleport assaults.

>> No.70713416

>>70713043
"Everything is canon and nothing is" is a phrase that just means everything they publish is on the same footing. Not that there are ten million space marines because you think that makes more sense and "nothing's canon."
https://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2012/12/06/heresy-black-legion-chatter-in-the-mail-this-morning/
>Here’s our standard line: Yes it’s all official, but remember that we’re reporting back from a time where stories aren’t always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.
>Let’s put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex… and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.
You still need to cite your sources. Why is this difficult?

>> No.70713510

>>70713379
Reminder that the original argument was why the ships don't just bombard the surface from a safe distance. The answer of PDS then meant asking why those defense systems can protect against ballistics, but not invasions made with essentially larger, slower projectiles that spit out organics on landing.
That system would also need to protect against laser-based weapons, which the IG obviously has access to. If the defense systems can't protect the entire globe, orbital bombardments could be used to shell the unprotected parts in a siege, significantly damaging the planet's ecosphere, indirectly affecting the protected areas.
And if there is no protection against teleport assaults, what is stopping a fleet from teleporting payloads into critical areas? If there is protection against that, why are marines able to breach that protection?

>> No.70713580

>>70713379
It doesn't? I think if that's the case, the Tau should probably be the ones to get it at some point.

>> No.70713668

>>70713510
Void Shields are very rare and can be overwhelmed given time and sufficient firepower. The overwhelming occurs faster the weaker the generator and the larger the protected area is. A hive city has void shields. A hive world does not, because that would be prohibitively expensive, and the most important thing on a hive world is the hive itself.
As for why teleporting isn't the SOP, because teleportation has a not insignificant chance of not landing you in the right place at all, or maybe you teleport halfway into a wall. On top of that, teleportation technology is stupidly rare and obscenely difficult to produce. These two factors mean that teleportation is most often either not an option at all or only considered if there is genuinely no other way to reach the objective.

>> No.70713703

>>70713510
>If the defense systems can't protect the entire globe, orbital bombardments could be used to shell the unprotected parts in a siege, significantly damaging the planet's ecosphere, indirectly affecting the protected areas.
not in a significant way. The word bearers tried that with Calth and failed, since defenders holed up underground or in otherwise protected bulwarks. And if it's at the point of a ground assault, the attacking force generally wants the planet under their control, relatively intact. Bombing it to the point of significantly damaging the ecosphere is against that purpose, and won't even guarantee the elimination of enemy forces. So they land outside the shield and fight on the ground to disable it.

>And if there is no protection against teleport assaults, what is stopping a fleet from teleporting payloads into critical areas?
warheads of significant yield are too large for teleport chambers, which at best can only hold a handful of people at one time

>> No.70713733

>>70713510
the answer is that the Imperium values the life of an average Guardsman about as much as you value a crumb of food that has been on the floor for two days.

10,000 dead guardsmen versus a city full of valuable infrastructure, the Imperium will try to take the city intact every time, unless it has been irredeemably corrupted by Chaos

>> No.70714767

>>70713287
And even Rogal Dorn got jobbed by cultists with knives. Cultist spam is even the meta just like conscripts were, throw enough dice and it doesn't matter how good your guys are.

>> No.70715222

>>70714767
No he didn't. According to the meta Tau must've run the place for a while by sealing all enemies in hover exhaust and chaos travels by conga-lined demons at ftl speeds.

>> No.70715327

>>70679535
>Reality
>40k
You dense faggot

>> No.70715525

>>70701334
>>70701042
>>70701011
>>70700994
Void shields only stop things moving above a certain velocity. It's the reason why torpedoes and strike craft can bypass them. Read the Gothic War books you scum.

>> No.70715545

>>70715525
>Read
Miss me with that gay shit. I'm here to throw cubes.

>> No.70715834

>>70709155
apples
oranges

>> No.70716652

Entire chapters besides a select few are trained for decades to be masters of unconventional warfare. What exactly is stopping Scout teams from sniping your officer corps and sabotaging major supply lines? Terminators teleporting onto the bridges of ships and just wholesale slaughtering?

>> No.70716887

>>70716652
what's your point

>> No.70717371

>>70700930
Such a sad state, I loved Planetside. TR forever, VS is gay and loves getting railed in the ass.

>> No.70720655

>>70716652
>What exactly is stopping Scout teams from sniping your officer corps and sabotaging major supply lines?
Gun.

>> No.70722077

Why is this thread still alive

>> No.70722620

>>70679454
>The nameless rank and file guardsmen is unironically more important to the imperium then a Space Marine
>I don't understand warfare: the post

Space marines serve vastly different roles than IG, and neither one is more important than the other in general. They specialize in equally important, but vastly different roles.
You're about as retarded as someone who says that a tank is more important than an infantryman, or the navy than the army.

>> No.70722821

>>70722620
Their role is space boarding actions, right?

>> No.70722848

>>70681994
No, they’re space marines in contrast to the grounded Thunder Warriors big E conquered earth with. They are definitely top tier at boarding actions, but they don’t get their name from that alone.

>> No.70722991

>>70682192
>A regiment is more important than a chapter
????
A regiment is hardly more impressive than a modern division, in many cases less impressive. A chapter fields significant fleet assets, armor designed for combined arms operations, and, of course, infantry that can strike anywhere on a planet with overwhelming force. Even a single company of marines could likely tear the heart out of most IG regiments with only marginal casualties. A guard regiment is an operational asset, requiring other regiments to guard its flanks and achieve its true potential as part of a conventional battle line. A chapter is an asset in the grand strategy of the imperium, a full chapter can make a credible attempt against almost any force in the galaxy. You don’t tell a chapter to occupy part of a battle line, you tell it to do threat assessment of a given planet and determine how much of its internal assets will be needed to fix the problems on that planet.

>> No.70723022

>>70722848
100~ guys just can't change the outcome of planetary warfare.

>> No.70723058

>>70682511
Brave to assume every guardsman has a pair of working boots.

>> No.70723368

>>70681887
arent fire warriors more comparable to stormtroopers than guardsmen?

>> No.70723409
File: 27 KB, 320x267, 7420A3D8-C959-4CE1-A344-20DE8233CB27.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70723409

>>70679579
>>70679667
>>70680003
>>70712997
>>70679759
Yes but the guardfags in this thread are already pulling the realism card to justify their bayonet fetish. GO PLAY BOLT
ACTION YOU REALISM NIGGER.

Also female space marines would be cool.

>> No.70723409,1 [INTERNAL] 

>>70679575
>Once you've reached the point of calling the actual work itself lies is when you have to admit you're just not actually a fan of it at all.
This is fucking moronic.
>>70723409
Can you be anymore cancerous, you tourist?
>inb4 guardfag
No, fucking take a look at your retarded ass in the mirror, you mong.

>> No.70723409,2 [INTERNAL] 

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>> No.70723409,3 [INTERNAL] 

Guard are literal normalpeasants so it makes sense modern /tg/ loves them.

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>>70723409,3
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vs
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